Re: metaphors and feminism

[Mike Hommey]

On Sat, Mar 30, 2019 at 04:54:04PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Mike Hommey  writes:
> > On Sat, Mar 30, 2019 at 10:22:35PM +0200, Jonathan Carter wrote:
> 
> >> So, how about:
> 
> >> DM: Debian Members. Full members of the project that can represent
> >> themselves as such, vote in elections, and have a @debian.org email
> >> address. (Pretty much what a DD and non-uploading DD is).
> 
> > VDM: Vetted Debian Members.
> 
> If we're going to add the V, how about voting members?  That's the primary
> structural distinction, after all.

That's the primary structural distinction as an effect, but OTOH, the NM
process is a rather extensive vetting process. It feels more important
than the fact that those people can vote (which is a right they may or
may not exercise, not a mandate)

Mike

Re: metaphors and feminism

[Mike Hommey]

On Sat, Mar 30, 2019 at 10:22:35PM +0200, Jonathan Carter wrote:
> Hi Ian
> 
> On 2019/03/30 20:46, Ian Jackson wrote:
> > Paul Wise writes ("Re: metaphors and feminism"):
> >> Personally I think the phrase "Debian Developer" and the abbreviation
> >> DD is a relic of an earlier era when the set of tasks available to
> >> Debian contributors were more technical and less varied.
> > 
> > As the person perhaps most responsible for the choice of the word
> > `Developer' I think your explanation is very ... charitable.  It is
> > certainly clear to at least me that it is the wrong word.
> > 
> >> I try to use "Debian member" in mails since it is clearer what that
> >> means to a larger set of people and I'd like to see Debian culture
> >> (and perhaps the official documents) move towards that too.
> > 
> > I see other people doing this too.  I like it.
> > 
> > The problem of course is that the official term is not "member" so
> > this is unclear and arguably wrong in some sense.  It should be.  I
> > would second a GR to change it.
> >
> > There is also a problem with acronyms.  Debian Member => "DM" but we
> > already have "Debian Maintainers".  I think it would be best to rename
> > Debian Maintainers too.  Particularly since you can be a maintainer of
> > a package in Debian without having your key in the Debian Maintainers'
> > keyring, so this term is very confusing.
> 
> +1 on renaming Debian Maintainers too in such a scenario.
> 
> > ADM = "Authorised Debian Maintainers" or "Assistant/Associate Debian
> > Members" or something maybe ?
> 
> So, how about:
> 
> DM: Debian Members. Full members of the project that can represent
> themselves as such, vote in elections, and have a @debian.org email
> address. (Pretty much what a DD and non-uploading DD is).

VDM: Vetted Debian Members.

Mike

Re: Automatic downloading of non-free software by stuff in main

[Mike Hommey]

On Thu, Dec 07, 2017 at 03:27:42AM +0100, Adam Borowski wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 07, 2017 at 01:33:41AM +, Ben Hutchings wrote:
> > On Wed, 2017-12-06 at 19:14 -0500, Michael Stone wrote:
> > > On Thu, Dec 07, 2017 at 12:09:22AM +, Ben Hutchings wrote:
> > > > That's only because it lives in mm/shmem.c, not under fs/.  It does
> > > > support xattrs.
> > > 
> > > Have you tried it?
> > 
> > Ah, damnit.  It supports *some* xattrs (like the security namespace),
> > but apparently not *user* xattrs.
> 
> Good.  While xattrs have some uses, this is a hidden privacy hole most users
> aren't aware of (although /tmp/ is the filesystem least likely to be used
> forensically against you).

Which makes the XDG thing borderline, since the only indicator that a file
has been downloaded they propose is the full url, not a boolean.

Mike

Re: third-party packages adding apt sources

[Mike Hommey]

On Thu, May 19, 2016 at 04:39:24PM +, Bas Wijnen wrote:
> > Hell, teams packaging Mozilla-soft and PostgreSQL are DDs maintaining
> > *external archives* because it's easier.
> 
> This indicates that our procedures are too hard.  That needs to be fixed.
> Maybe people from those teams are reading this and can comment on it?

FWIW, I'm maintaining mozilla.debian.net because we still don't have no
freaking PPAs despite the announcement a few years ago that we would have
them soon. I'm not holding my breath. Also because the process for
backports doesn't allow things that are not in testing to be in
backports, which means it is not possible to have a non ESR firefox
there.

Mike

Re: Renaming the Debian Project

[Mike Hommey]

On Wed, Dec 30, 2015 at 02:40:33PM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Daniel Pocock  writes:
> 
> > c) do you have verifiable references for the other allegations you are
> > making about the project founder?  It is very inappropriate to post
> > things like that without citing some solid evidence, doing so only
> > undermines your own credibility.
> 
> Given the timing of this message, it's a pretty obvious troll.  If there
> were a legitimate point, it could have been made any other day other than
> this day.  The only reason to choose today to post the original message is
> to stir up shit.

Or maybe it's just based on the last tweets from Ian, which are now
archived in many different places, and a bad interpretation (or rather,
a too literal one) of the tweet using the N word, or some of the very
last ones.

Mike

Re: Proposed MBF - mentions of the word "Ubuntu"

[Mike Hommey]

On Sat, Nov 09, 2013 at 10:36:49PM -0800, Steve Langasek wrote:
> Contrary to how this has been represented by the Mozilla
> community since then, it was never a question of a trademark license per
> se.)

Not only by the Mozilla community. By just about everyone.

Mike


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Re: DDG

[Mike Hommey]

On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 01:20:24PM +0300, vangelis mouhtsis wrote:
> And how can i avoid to have DDG as default search URL on my iceweasel?
> I think thats not fair enough.

It is not the default. Except if you hit bug #665817.

Mike


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Re: revenue sharing agreement with DuckDuckGo

[Mike Hommey]

On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 11:33:37PM +0200, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 10:46:25AM +0100, Philip Hands wrote:
> > On the other hand, I suppose there's some tiny chance that Google will
> > be offended, and reduce sponsorship of DebConf, or be less willing to
> > give us GSoC projects, say.  If we were being mercenary one might want
> > to compare how much money we're likely to get from DDG with the
> > potential loss from Google, but as you say, this should be a technical
> > decision, so if Google get upset about it, that's not really something
> > to be taken into account.
> 
> I'm not sure I understand way they should. We're not *changing* the set
> of search options available in our browsers, DDG has already been
> available in Iceweasel for totally unrelated reasons --- and apparently
> also a default in midori, according to Pierre.
> 
> As part of DDG "open source policy", they want to give us a cut of what
> they make out of our traffic. It's not like Google should be entitled to
> tell us "thou shalt not accept that money". On a principle basis ---
> leaving aside technical concerns --- I don't see this as significantly
> different from accepting a cut of revenue coming from selling t-shirts
> with the Debian name on it.
> 
> The main question here is if we trust ourselves in, once the deal is
> established, not being unconsciously affected by it and favoring DDG
> over others for this reason. If we do *not* do that, than also the point
> of being merchant raised by Steffen is moot; it could be valid only if
> our technical decisions will be affected by it.
> 
> Now, I do see the risk of being unconsciously affected. But balancing
> the odds, I'm still quite convinced that it won't impact us. Even only
> because the chain between the decision makers (the maintainer) and the
> entity who gets the money (the project as a whole) seems long enough.  I
> also think that if a decision of adding DDG as an optional search engine
> will be considered negatively on technical basis, people will complain,
> and we can rely o our usual mechanisms to decide on technical matters.

Considering the known or speculated amounts for deals from various vendors
with Google, considering how many fewer users we have compared to these
vendors, and considering the even fewer number of users using DDG, I
doubt the amount of money we're talking about is going to have any
possible weight, even unconscious.

Mike


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Re: revenue sharing agreement with DuckDuckGo

[Mike Hommey]

On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 12:16:52PM +0200, Steffen Möller wrote:
> On 03/27/2012 10:39 AM, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> > On 12-03-27 at 10:26am, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> >> Dear Project Members,
> >>   thanks to the introductions by Mike Hommey, as Iceweasel maintainer,
> >> I've been approached by a representative of the DuckDuckGo (DDG) search
> >> engine [1] about a revenue sharing agreement among them and the Debian
> >> Project.
> >>
> >> [1] https://duckduckgo.com/
> [..]
> >> I welcome feedback on this matter,
> > Sorry if it is just me: What is our end of the agreement - apart from 
> > being ok accepting money from them?
> >
> > Thanks for your work on this,
> For the sake of consistency Iit may be preferable to work towards having
> them listed as a partner and they just donate and announce whatever they
> want to donate.
> 
> But I truly wish we'd have several of such sites through which Debian
> gets some money. This could be the typical online bookshop or anything
> else like me getting tires for my car. The problem I see is with a
> competition with upstream. If we  in any way lower the impact firefox
> has for google, then this has a direct effect not only on firefox but
> also on our relation with them and other upstreams.

Ubuntu has a much bigger impact, and that didn't prevent them to do that:
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2010-January/030065.html

Mike


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Re: revenue sharing agreement with DuckDuckGo

[Mike Hommey]

On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 10:46:25AM +0100, Philip Hands wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Mar 2012 10:26:18 +0200, Stefano Zacchiroli  
> wrote:
> ...
> > I welcome feedback on this matter,
> 
> I already install DDG as default search engine on any (Linux or Windows)
> user that lets me fiddle with their setup, so as far as I'm concerned
> this is a case of us being paid to do something that will save me effort.
> 
> I realise that's an almost completely irrelevant data point, but if it
> were the case that other DDs are doing similar, then we should probably
> be changing the default regardless of this payment offer.
> 
> Of course establishing whether that's the case is not likely to be
> possible, but I suppose the iceweasel maintainer could canvas opinions,
> or just make a decision as they see fit (in the usual manner).

With my iceweasel maintainer hat on, I won't start to consider ddg as a
default until it at least matches the user experience the current
default engine provides, including search suggestions and localized
results (the latter requires some manual work ; the former lacks
server-side support).

Mike


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Re: What is annoying in the flattr buttons?

[Mike Hommey]

On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 07:35:03AM -0500, Kevin Mark wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 01:22:54PM +0100, Didier 'OdyX' Raboud wrote:
> > Tshepang Lekhonkhobe wrote:
> > 
> > > On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 02:44, Russ Allbery  wrote:
> > >> Michael Gilbert  writes:
> > >>> Raphael has every right to attempt to pursue his field of endeavor in
> > >>> any tolerant/respectful manner he chooses.
> > >>
> > >> ...using his own property.  But not using Debian project resources.
> > > 
> > > Raphael is among the most notable (visible) of all DD's, so why not?
> > > If he became a millionaire using flattr, why not? Why not create money
> > > where there wasn't? Why is the money topic so sensitive? I'm the sort
> > > of person who gets excited by seeing Release Managers get paid for
> > > their heroic work.
> > 
> > For a simple reason, the DMUP [0]; which every user of Debian resources 
> > must 
> > follow. It says (in its introduction, point 1).
> > 
> >  * "Don't use Debian Facilities for private financial gain"
> > 
> > The problem here is not about Raphael being "allowed" to become millionaire 
> > with flattr or not; it is about people using the Debian planet (which is 
> > "Debian resources") for private financial gain.
> > 
> > This has nothing to do with the "money topic", but with the rules in place 
> > regarding the Debian machines.
> > 
> > [0] http://debian.org/devel/dmup.en.html
> 
> Debian Facilities -> debian webserver   ->Planet-> blog posts->flattr links
> ..-> debian email server->email -> email signature that links 
> to: 
> ...their personal webpage 
> with paypal or flatter 
> ...their business website

or mailing lists archives, for that matter.

> both these can generate income. are they both potential DMUP violations?

I won't say anything about a DMUP violation, but surely the two things you
mention should be treated equally.

Mike


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Re: re-organizing dvd

[Mike Hommey]

On Tue, Jun 01, 2010 at 10:47:34AM +0100, Steve McIntyre wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 01, 2010 at 02:29:32PM +0530, V.Krishn wrote:
> >Hi,
> >I have been using Debian for couple of years.
> >I was wondering if forthcoming release dvds could be re-organized.
> >Like:
> >DVD 1 - Desktop with apps ( I think both KDE and Gnome might fit in one dvd)
> >DVD 2 - Server apps + Network apps (most used ones)
> >DVD 3 - Web apps (mostly web based apps like Phpmyadmin..etc)
> >DVD 4 - Others (libs, apps..etc)
> >DVD 5 - Other desktops (Like XFCE, LXDE..etc. Gnome if does not fit in DVD 1)
> >
> >DVD 4 and 5 might be possible to club in on.
> 
> Hi,
> 
> The packages on the CD and DVD sets are currently organised
> automatically to optimise the layout in terms of dependencies and
> popularity. That can be reasonably easily worked out automatically.
> 
> The scheme you're suggesting would take a lot more manual effort,
> leaving it more prone to mistakes. It also doesn't scale for the next
> release - weekly squeeze builds are already up to 7 DVDs for i386 and
> not very far off spreading on to number 8.

Do the CD/DVD generation tools currently use tasks (as in tasksel)?

Mike


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Re: Squeeze, firmware and installation

[Mike Hommey]

On Fri, May 07, 2010 at 08:33:24AM +0200, Yves-Alexis Perez wrote:
> On jeu., 2010-05-06 at 21:16 -0500, Raphael Geissert wrote:
> > Josselin Mouette wrote:
> > > If there really was a need for it, such images would already exist.
> > 
> > They do already exist and are labelled "*Ubuntu."
> > 
> > That's what people end up trying and installing after they waste their time 
> > installing Debian just to see that their wireless and/or ethernet card 
> > "doesn't work" (because most people don't know or care why it doesn't. It 
> > just doesn't.)
> > 
> > Trying to tell people that they need to download "something extra" to make 
> > their networking devices work is not fun when they just wiped off the only 
> > thing that was working: Windows.
> > 
> > And for those suggesting one should modify the installation media: good 
> > luck 
> > saying that to newcomers.
> 
> That's why we have an installation manual, too. Maybe we don't advertise
> it enough, maybe we should add a large enough RTFM somewhere on download
> pages.

Even with a big RTFM, people won't start reading the manual. Reality is
sad: people don't read manuals, and worse, people don't read what is
written on their screen either. Ask around you, I'm pretty sure you can
find nice stories about people not reading what their computer is
telling them. Here is one: a secretary on a Mac calls support because 
the printer doesn't work. Turns out there was a dialog on the Mac
telling her to put paper in the tray and click ok when it's ready.
You'd think that'd be enough...

Mike


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Re: PTS subscription exposure

[Mike Hommey]

On Tue, Mar 02, 2010 at 11:40:20AM +0100, Gerfried Fuchs wrote:
>  Alright, let's also expose list subscriptions along the same reasoning.
> Again, this is not your job to judge which lists I would be interested
> in.

Any subscriber of a mailing list on alioth can see who is subscribed to
the mailing list. This is a default feature of mailman, and has been
such for years. Apparently, noone cared about that "privacy" issue.

Mike


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Re: Google AdSense for Debian

[Mike Hommey]

On Thu, Feb 04, 2010 at 08:39:28AM +0100, Adrian von Bidder wrote:
> On Thursday 04 February 2010 01.43:23 Paul Wise wrote:
> [...]
> > I'd like to suggest this thread be moved to debian-project to get some
> > input from a larger part of Debian.
> 
> Ok.
> 
> Here's what this is about:
> 
> +++
> I've been sent a voucher for 125.-- worth of Google Ads.  How should I use 
> it?
> 
> I'll need
>  * a title (2 or 3 words perhaps)
>  * a text (5 to 10 words)
>  * what URL to point to
>  * Keywords when the ad should show.
> 
> Obviously the entries should be to promote Debian, so the URL is probably a 
> sub-page/domain of debian.org.
> 
> I'll be the jury (it's my voucher, right?) and will pick the entry/entries I 
> like best from what is posted on this mailing list.  I will (try to) read 
> the discussion around the weekend in two weeks (13.2.) and then decide what 
> to do.
>   
> I'll announce results here, too.
> +++

I have a 75€ voucher for Google Adwords, too.

Mike


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Re: DEP-5: query about possible inheritance of License:

[Mike Hommey]

On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 09:18:00PM -0700, Steve Langasek wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 08:40:34AM +0900, Charles Plessy wrote:
> > Having a mantadory Files: field was strongly opposed on debian-devel
> 
> AFAIK the opposition was from people who opposed the machine-readable
> copyright format altogether, not from people who are planning to use the
> format and are looking to improve it.  The DEP should not cater to the whims
> of people who aren't going to use it anyway.

On the other hand, the DEP should make it possible for more people to
use it, not make it impossible. Basically, having the Files field
mandatory means no big package will ever use it. Ask Gustavo Noronha how
fun it is, and how long it takes to update the debian/copyright file for
webkit at each new upstream release, which is only medium sized. Not
only is it not fun and time sucking, but it is also very error-prone.
I'm pretty sure I involuntary introduced errors when I was still
maintaining that file, which are probably still out there.

And while software like fossology could help a lot, they still leave a
massive amount of manual work to be done.

Let's also add something I pointed out last time: the debian/copyright
file is mostly relevant for *binary* packages, yet, we fill copyright
for *source* files and provide no information for *binary* files at all,
while having a machine-parseable copyright has, IMHO, a more interesting
benefit for binaries than it has for sources (especially sources of big
packages). But I admit gathering these informations together would mean
even more work than what copyright files require already.

Mike


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Re: Export Control of Debian OS

[Mike Hommey]

On Fri, Sep 04, 2009 at 09:29:23PM +0900, Osamu Aoki  wrote:
> PS: It will be nice to have some page for these issues on our web so
> these FAQ can be addressed properly without making us liable.  

Translated in various languages would be a nice addition.

Mike


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Re: Debian redesign

[Mike Hommey]

On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 12:51:04PM +0200, Werner Baumann wrote:
> Some examples from debian_redesign and why I'm worried:
> deb_redesign-talk7.jpg shows a proposal for the Debian home page. It
> starts with "what is debian?" and ends with "all of it free." (in
> bold). At the moment at http://www.debian.org/intro/about this is "It's
> all free?" (mark the question mark) and it starts an *explanation* why
> this can be. This is what makes Debian different. You don't promise free
> beer, you explain what free software is all about.

Read http://www.debian.org/intro/about again, there is the exact same
sentence ("all of it free"), two lines before "It's all free?".

pixelgirl explained she only took the first part of the text.

Also note the page is totally fictional, as the menu on the left is
showing "News" as highlighted while the text on the right is nothing
related to news.

Mike


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Re: DAM and NEW queues processing

[Mike Hommey]

On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 09:28:04AM +0200, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 06:02:11PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
> > I think it's clear from the copyright files already in the archive
> > and that are accepted daily by ftpmaster that listing the individual
> > files is unnecessary if you have all of the licenses accounted for
> > (and potentially copyright notices, which are the main topic of
> > current disagreement).  I do agree with you that having that written
> > down somewhere would be good, though.
> 
> (My interpretation is the same.)
> 
> FWIW, I consider listing files in DEP5-style an advantage in complex
> packages because it helps out in checking for the completeness of your
> license/copyright review. Yes, it is more work, but you gain that you
> can check whether a given source file has been forgotten.

Have you tried it on packages with 1000+ files, with a spaghetti of
licenses ? It's not a gain for those.

Mike


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Re: DAM and NEW queues processing

[Mike Hommey]

On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 12:01:40PM +0300, Eugene V. Lyubimkin 
 wrote:
> Steve McIntyre wrote:
> > On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 07:42:15AM +0200, Mike Hommey wrote:
> >> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 10:48:42PM +0200, Bernd Zeimetz wrote:
> >>> No need for that. Read debian-newmaint for a summary if you're interested,
> >>> that's why the AM report is posted there. Definitely I'm not going to ask 
> >>> our
> >>> AMs to do such additional work.
> >> Why not let the new maintainers introduce themselves, then ?
> > 
> > That sounds a very sensible idea, yes.
> > 
> New maintainers usually write info about themselves during a first part of
> working with AM, and this info is also included in the AM report.

I do know that, as it was part of my NM, but I'm not sure I'd write the
same thing as an intro sent to debian-project.

Mike


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Re: DAM and NEW queues processing

[Mike Hommey]

On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 10:35:30AM +0200, Bernd Zeimetz  wrote:
> Mike Hommey wrote:
> > On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 01:32:14AM +0200, Bernd Zeimetz wrote:
> >> Don Armstrong wrote:
> >>> On Wed, 24 Jun 2009, Steve Langasek wrote:
> >>>> Ok - then I guess my problem is that the list of names included in
> >>>> these is so non-notable (and is empty most weeks anyway...) that it
> >>>> doesn't register at all with me.
> >>> Would it be enough to just have a special automated mail
> >>> congratulating new developers on -newmaint (or modify the subject of
> >>> this mail to congratulate them?)
> >> I'd be happy to modify the cronjob to send such mails to -project, if the
> >> interest is large enough. Does anybody want to come up with a proper 
> >> wording?
> > 
> > I'd say it would nice to have a mail to -project with a welcome for new
> > maintainers, a thanks for retiring maintainers, and the new number of
> > developpers. But that might be much harder to setup.
> 
> 
> Neither FD nor DAM have anything to do with retiring maintainers. They're
> removed from the keyring and the account is disabled.

How come DAM (Debian *Account* Manager) have nothing to do with disabling
accounts ?

Mike


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Re: DAM and NEW queues processing

[Mike Hommey]

On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 10:48:42PM +0200, Bernd Zeimetz wrote:
> Julien BLACHE wrote:
> > Frans Pop  wrote:
> > 
> > Hi,
> > 
> >> I can appreciate that, but is it unreasonable to expect the FD to at least 
> >> send a simple overview (list of names) of who have been accepted in the 
> >> project during the past x months?
> > 
> > I think the AM could provide a summary for that mail, after all, the
> > AM should know the applicant enough to be able to write that up,
> > right?
> 
> No need for that. Read debian-newmaint for a summary if you're interested,
> that's why the AM report is posted there. Definitely I'm not going to ask our
> AMs to do such additional work.

Why not let the new maintainers introduce themselves, then ?

Mike


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Re: DAM and NEW queues processing

[Mike Hommey]

On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 01:32:14AM +0200, Bernd Zeimetz wrote:
> Don Armstrong wrote:
> > On Wed, 24 Jun 2009, Steve Langasek wrote:
> >> Ok - then I guess my problem is that the list of names included in
> >> these is so non-notable (and is empty most weeks anyway...) that it
> >> doesn't register at all with me.
> > 
> > Would it be enough to just have a special automated mail
> > congratulating new developers on -newmaint (or modify the subject of
> > this mail to congratulate them?)
> 
> I'd be happy to modify the cronjob to send such mails to -project, if the
> interest is large enough. Does anybody want to come up with a proper wording?

I'd say it would nice to have a mail to -project with a welcome for new
maintainers, a thanks for retiring maintainers, and the new number of
developpers. But that might be much harder to setup.

Mike


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Re: DEP: commit rights to dep repositories on alioth

[Mike Hommey]

On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 10:37:59PM +0900, Charles Plessy wrote:
> Le Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 12:56:54PM +0300, Lars Wirzenius a écrit :
> > Currently, the dep project on alioth (which can be used to host DEP
> > texts on $VCS) allows commits by any DD, but not guest accounts. The
> > question has arisen whether to allow commits by guests. Doing so would
> > allow basically anyone to start a new DEP, or, more importantly, to
> > change existing ones.
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> my experience with guests and DMs is that they do not want to jeopardize their
> chances of becoming official members of the project and usually behave better
> than the average DD (although it could be argued that since the average DD is
> not much active, he can not misbehave). Therefore, I would recommend to keep
> the dep project open to all Alioth accounts (but understand if the people who
> would ultimately deal with the mess prefer not to do so).

Except that there are non DM guest accounts on alioth.

Mike


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Re: Genericly-named debian.net domains for private use

[Mike Hommey]

On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 12:19:31PM +0200, Daniel Baumann wrote:
> Adeodato Simó wrote:
> > Okay. Well, I’ve just put Daniel (owner of {git,backports}.debian.net)
> > on CC
> 
> Thank you for making me aware of it, I've read through the thread now.
> 
> To summarise, there appears to be two seperated though related issues:
> 
>   * that people (me) using a debian.net subdomain for which a debian.org
> subdomain exists, for their personal stuff, as it is allegedly the
> case for git.debian.net.
> 
>   * that people (me) using a debian.net subdomain for which no debian
> subdomain exists but another pre-existing, unofficial service on a
> different but similar domain is known, as it is the case for
> backports.debian.net.
> 
> Apart from the (apparently causing) initial mail[0] who confused
> backports.debian.net with backports.org which could be understand as
> reasoning for the specific case, the second issue, i don't see any
> reasoning given in the thread for the general case, the first issue.
> 
> > so that he can take a look at this thread and see what their
> > peers think of this, and he can proceed as he considers appropriate.
> 
> for the first issue, given that:
> 
>   * git.debian.org exists and is in use,
>   * git.debian.net is not (only) used for my personal stuff,
>   * there are about 200 (+/- 5 i guess) packages in the archive using
> git.debian.net,

To be fair, your are giving biased information: 147 out of the 179
repositories on git.debian.net (from a quick grep) are owned by you,
plus the 6 from the Debian Live Project, which you are part of, and
the 23 from the Debian Forensics Team, which you are part of, too.

Note that both Debian Live Project and Debian Forensics Team have
their project page on alioth.

Mike


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Re: Genericly-named debian.net domains for private use (was Re: Point to semi-official backported packages?)

[Mike Hommey]

On Sat, Mar 28, 2009 at 10:00:46AM +0100, Adeodato Simó wrote:
> * Paul Wise [Sat, 28 Mar 2009 12:35:44 +0900]:
> 
> > On Fri, Mar 27, 2009 at 8:28 PM, Peter Pentchev  wrote:
> > > (And yes, I know about backports.d.n; maybe I'll get 'round to submitting
> > > or maintaining stuff there at some point, but for the present it is
> > > a bit easier for me to keep it all in a single repo :)
> 
> > I think you mean backports.org, backports.debian.net is not what you
> > think it is. Despite its name, backports.d.n is a personal backports
> > archive for Daniel Bauman.
> 
> I really don’t get why it’s appropriate for a developer to use such
> generic names for their personal stuff. git.debian.net seems to be
> Daniel’s too.
> 
> Wouldn’t it be just better to point those domains to the respective
> project-wide efforts? I’d appreciate opinions on the matter.

I'd go a little further and instate a general rule such as:
- All subdomains of debian.org should exist in debian.net and point to
  the same location.
- All domains external to debian.org but providing official support
  should also be accessible from a subdomain of debian.org.
- All external domains providing unofficial support should also be
  accessible from a subdomain of debian.net.

That would also be the occasion to discuss about the status of
backports, buildd.net and others.

Mike


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Re: The Unofficial (and Very Simple) Lenny GR: call for votes

[Mike Hommey]

On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 07:32:40PM +0200, Antti-Juhani Kaijanaho wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 05:37:33PM +0100, Adeodato Simó wrote:
> > - - -=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> > f2276370-dfd7-45db-92d5-2da0c179c569
> > [   ] Choice 1: Delay Lenny until known firmware issues are resolved
> > [   ] Choice 2: Acknowledge the lenny-ignore tags as set by the release team
> > - - -=-=-=-=-=- Don't Delete Anything Between These Lines =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> 
> Why is there no Further Discussion option?

Because you mustn't discuss this vote. Which we are both wrong doing, by
the way.

Mike


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Re: giving @debian.org mail addresses to voting contributors

[Mike Hommey]

On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 02:07:16AM +0200, Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> 
> >> Why not @people.debian.org ? It represents pretty good what thoses
> >> eventual "contributors" would: the _people_ who make Debian.
> > In fact, I've already argued in this thread that @whatever.debian.org
> > will need nevertheless to share the namespace with @debian.org
> > domain. (I.e., I don't want someone to steal "my"
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED], nor a contributor probably won't to
> > change nickname if he eventually becomes full blown DD.)
> 
> The idea for contributor.d.o includes either to reserve all existing
> debian.org UIDs within the @contributor.d.o namespace or activate them
> as forwarding or giving people the choice to activate or whatever.
> 
> > As a consequence of that reasoning, why not giving plain @debian.org
> > mail addresses to voting contributors?
> 
> Well, different weight. To be able to clearly seperate (using the terms
> of my much-discussed text) "is a DC/DM" and "is a DME/DD". Basically
> the look to the outside (press, users, etc), if a DC/DM writes something
> it is less binding to the project than if a DME/DD writes something.
> IMO.

How so? I would agree that when a DD writes something, it is less
binding to the project than if the DPL or a delegate writes something.
I see no difference between DD and DM there.

Mike


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Re: transfering files between *.debian.org hosts (was: people.debian.org to move to ravel)

[Mike Hommey]

On Sat, Aug 30, 2008 at 03:01:00PM -0700, Steve Langasek wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 30, 2008 at 06:48:57PM +0200, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> > > + once we have a krb realm we could maybe also use it for other
> > >   stuff like all those web services that require logins.  How
> > >   good is krb support in browsers these days?
> 
> > Pretty good. Konqueror supports it out of the box, iceweasel only
> > requires you to edit the 'network.negotiate-auth.trusted-uris'
> > about:config variable, and then it works well, too. Dunno about other
> > browsers.
> 
> > (for some infathomable reason, the firefox developers consider Negotiate
> > authentication to be unsafe with untrusted and/or non-SSL hosts. Dunno
> > why that is, and never saw a compelling argument...)
> 
> And what do the iceweasel developers think?  Perhaps iceweasel could have
> this enabled by default?  (Or are there other negotiations besides Kerberos
> that are enabled with this setting, which should be avoided?)

I would say as Russ. Plus the fact that apparently, it currently doesn't
work (see bug #496933).

Mike


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Re: NMU versioning

[Mike Hommey]

On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 01:01:53PM +0200, Adeodato Simó <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> * Bastian Blank [Tue, 29 Apr 2008 12:55:23 +0200]:
> 
> > On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 12:16:28PM +0200, Adeodato Simó wrote:
> > > * Mike Hommey [Tue, 29 Apr 2008 11:54:59 +0200]:
> > > > FWIW, I think NMUing a package shouldn't end up with a sourceful upload
> > > > but should instead have a .diff.gz, whether it's a native package or 
> > > > not.
> > > 100% agreed. (Assuming you mean a NMU should never, ever, create a new
> > > tarball, particularly applying to native packages.)
> 
> > It is valid to update to a new upstream release in a NMU, so this is
> > bogus.
> 
> Er, of course. I was mostly talking about normal NMUs to native packages.

Note that by definition, there can't be a new upstream release NMU for a
native package.

Mike


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Re: NMU versioning

[Mike Hommey]

On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 11:32:34AM +0200, Amaya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> James Vega wrote:
> > "The version must be the version of the last upload, plus +nmuX, where
> > X is a counter starting at 1."
> 
> I have found that NMUing native source packages is a bit tricky, as in,
> what is the consensuous regarding this increment? Where to increment?

FWIW, I think NMUing a package shouldn't end up with a sourceful upload
but should instead have a .diff.gz, whether it's a native package or not.

Mike


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Re: Debian Lover from Thailand

[Mike Hommey]

On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 10:35:19PM +, Noah Slater wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 03:12:07PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
> > 3. Debian does not go quite as far as Stallman would go in such areas as
> >removing drivers and binary blobs from the kernel, removing trademarked
> >images, and some similar issues.  (Amusingly, Debian also goes much
> >farther than Stallman would go in ensuring that all the documentation
> >in Debian is free; Stallman and the FSF distribute and maintain
> >non-free documentation for some of their free software by Debian's
> >definitions.)
> 
> This is a little misleading. Debian holds a different position on what freedom
> means in respect to software documentation. To claim that this makes Debian
> more free presumes agreement with that position.
> 
> > but I also think it's possible to overstate the effect of minor differences
> > and work that's not yet happened and miss the big picture.  Debian and the
> > FSF, apart from the documentation freeness issue, agree in 99% of the cases.
> 
> Agreed. From my understanding, the reason the FSF/GNU does not recommend 
> Debian
> because doing so would be seen as an implicit endorsement of the non-free
> software which is an understandable position to take.

IIRC, the FSF has been not recommending Debian since much before the GFDL 
debacle.

Mike


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Re: linhdd concerns

[Mike Hommey]

On Wed, Nov 28, 2007 at 02:19:21PM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Pierre Habouzit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> >   or we could disallow the override of >= E: errors in lintian, and make
> > lintian reboot your computer, fill your gpg with /dev/random bits, and
> > install windows over your Debian if you override such errors.
> 
> I'd love it if lintian were at a point where it would make sense to do
> that, but as a lintian maintainer, I'm afraid that it's not.  Not all
> errors are created equal, and some of them should legitimately be
> overridable.
> 
> We've talked for quite a while about having finer-grained control over
> lintian messages than the current three-tier system, in part to allow
> something like this (automatic dak rejection on certain lintian errors,
> for instance), but I'm way short on time.  :/
> 
> For example, to take the lintian error that started this thread, there are
> some arch: all packages in the archive with architecture-specific objects
> that at least on a cursory glance I couldn't declare wrong.  They're
> development packages for cross-compilation and the arch-specific objects
> are libraries for the target.  That seems like a legitimate case for a
> lintian override to me.

Also, BIOSes for emulators are candidates for such an override.

Mike


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Re: Updated Debian Maintainers Keyring

[Mike Hommey]

On Wed, Nov 21, 2007 at 10:46:31AM -0500, Joey Hess wrote:
> Bas Wijnen wrote:
> > I would expect that adding DM-Upload-Allowed should be a concious
> > decision which is to be made when a specific person is (about to become)
> > a DM and should be allowed to upload this specific package.  If I am
> > right in this, it makes no sense to set this flag when only DDs are
> > maintaining it.  Do others have other ideas about this flag?  Do people
> > just set it everywhere to show support for the DM system, or something?
> 
> debian-maintainers (0.03) unstable; urgency=low
> 
>   * Add Dm-Upload-Allowed: yes header to allow for access control of
> automatic byhand processing.

I must have lost my awareness device, but what is it supposed to mean ?

Mike


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Re: Planet policy?

[Mike Hommey]

On Wed, Aug 08, 2007 at 08:32:43AM +0100, MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Mike Hommey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > seriously, when there's something that is not interesting to me on
> > planet debian, I just don't read it. Is it that difficult to not read ?
> 
> Actually, it's harder than it could be.  Can anyone see how to add
> alterslash.org-style "Skip" links to the top of each item in Planet?
> I can't figure it out.  (Bonus points if the link stays under the
> pointer after clicking, instead of moving around like alterslash's.)

Waw, there are still people not using feed agregators these days ?

Mike

PS: a skip button would be pretty easy to add. It would also be easy
to make it stay under the mouse pointer.


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Re: Planet policy?

[Mike Hommey]

On Wed, Aug 08, 2007 at 01:20:30AM -0400, Kevin Mark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 07, 2007 at 10:26:55PM +0200, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
> > On Tue, 07 Aug 2007, Joey Hess wrote:
> > > Ian could take up pig farming and blog about nothing else, and I'd still
> > > consider his posts on topic for Planet Debian. Whether he likes it or not,
> > > he's inextricably linked with Debian.
> > 
> > Ack. I'd rather question the need to have Evan Prodromou's blog who is
> > posting very regularly and where almost none of the posts are related to
> > Debian (mainly wikipedia).
> > 
> But then I'd never what todays date is in the French Revolutionary
> Calander!1!1 That alone give his blog a certain 'caché' ;-) But

That's cachet. Not every french word has an acute accent ;)

(caché also exists but is a past participle and means hidden)

> seriously, I like reading about wiki technology and the other FLOSS
> things and conferences. IIRC he's also a DD (2005).

seriously, when there's something that is not interesting to me on
planet debian, I just don't read it. Is it that difficult to not read ?

Mike


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Re: Micros*ft deal

[Mike Hommey]

On Sun, Jul 01, 2007 at 11:03:03AM +0200, Jose Carlos Garcia Sogo <[EMAIL 
PROTECTED]> wrote:
> El jue, 21-06-2007 a las 21:40 +0200, Robert Millan escribió:
> > > 
> > > I believe our silence says it all, no? If they want to donate us money
> > > for no 'carte blanche' back good,
> > 
> > Their donations are welcome, their deals aren't.  In fact, we could even 
> > lose
> > our permission to use GPLv3 software if we did that.
> > 
> > > otherwise I don't think it's worth
> > > write a PR and help them spread their FUD, IMHO.
> > 
> > On the contrary; the objective would be to dismiss their FUD.
> 
>   The basic problem is that since GPLv3 has been yet released, we are
> releasing de-facto GPLv3 software, in every piece licensed as "GPL v2 or
> any later". I can be using a ig chunk of Debian as GPLv3, and nobody can
> dismiss this right now.

There are software in main that can be distributed under non-free
licenses too. What's the problem ?

Mike


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Re: Bug#292330: use UTF-8 by default

[Mike Hommey]

On Mon, Jun 18, 2007 at 01:09:17PM +, Thorsten Glaser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> Mike Hommey dixit:
> 
> >>   it's not. We could create a neutral.utf-8 locale for sure
> 
> Sounds like a plan. Maybe something short and uppercase, akin to
> "C" and "POSIX", how about "STD.UTF-8"?
> 
> >> but a
> >> C.utf-8 is really bad, because some programs check the locale for 'C'
> >> and when they foind that use hand optimized functions to replace the
> >> localized libc ones.
> 
> Ugh. Really? Nah, please spare me the details.
> 
> >Note that you won't get strings split in the middle of a point code with
> >UTF-8.
> 
> This is possible with UTF-8.
> 
> Try this one: ł (U+0142) = C5 82
> You can split between the C5 and the 82.

The vast majority of programs won't split a string in the middle of a
word.

Mike


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Bug#292330: use UTF-8 by default

[Mike Hommey]

On Mon, Jun 18, 2007 at 10:48:04AM +0100, Pierre Habouzit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 16, 2007 at 05:48:00PM +0100, martin f krafft wrote:
> > also sprach Thorsten Glaser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2007.06.16.1528 +0100]:
> > > That's what I did, but the idea is not to have to do that. (Besides,
> > > "C" is installed by default, so we need some kind of "C.UTF-8", whose
> > > role is – for LC_CTYPE – usually fulfilled by en_US.UTF-8.)
> > 
> > Please stop CCing debian-project.
> > 
> > Does a C.UTF-8 exist? If yes, then this is a sound proposal,
> > I think.
> 
>   it's not. We could create a neutral.utf-8 locale for sure, but a
> C.utf-8 is really bad, because some programs check the locale for 'C'
> and when they foind that use hand optimized functions to replace the
> localized libc ones. And thanks to POSIX, even if it looks gross, it's
> totally OK to do that.
> 
>   C charset is and should be ascii, that's an assumption you should not
> break. In fact, using an 8bit locale would often not harm, but a
> multi-byte one would be really really bad (as you would end up with e.g.
> strings split in the middle of a point code, *brrr* you definitely don't
> want that).

Note that you won't get strings split in the middle of a point code with
UTF-8.

Anyways, maybe the general problem is that there should be a way to
generate locales at the user level (and store everything in ~/.locale,
for example)

Mike


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Bug#292330: use UTF-8 by default

[Mike Hommey]

On Fri, Jun 15, 2007 at 11:13:29PM +, Thorsten Glaser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> wouldn't it be possible to at least make the en_US.UTF-8 locale forcibly
> generated, so that it can't be deselected by dpkg-reconfigure locales?
> 
> If this one isn't installed, many apps break when I ssh from an OS that
> uses exclusively UTF-8 to a Debian box.

They would break the same way if you'd ssh from an OS exclusively using
anything else (let's say ISO-2022-JP). So should we generate these too ?

Mike


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Re: What do Open Source Projects need? - part 3

[Mike Hommey]

On Fri, Jun 08, 2007 at 05:52:33PM +0200, Patrick Frank <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> On 6/8/07, Joey Schulze <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> Do you want me to cry now like some of your friends, because you
> reply to my private email on this list? :)

I don't know what you're smoking, but it must be good...

His message was In-Reply-To:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, which
is http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2007/06/msg00126.html

Mike


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Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.

[Mike Hommey]

On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 04:52:03PM +0200, Sven Luther <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 04:29:50PM +0200, Mike Hommey wrote:
> > On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 04:17:53PM +0200, Sven Luther wrote:
> > > Ok, then we come back to the problem of Frans, right, who found it
> > > totally unacceptable that i dared to present myself as DPL, and chose to
> > > hurry to search expulsion supporters to punish me for it ?
> > 
> > Sven, could you "slide" back to your own parallel world, and send back the
> > yourself from this world, please ?
> 
> Mike, i ask you to look at the expulsion details, i will sent them to
> you if you have not otherwise access, and look at the evidence found
> there

Like Anthony's request for suspension in January (iirc) ?

Mike


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Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.

[Mike Hommey]

On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 04:17:53PM +0200, Sven Luther wrote:
> Ok, then we come back to the problem of Frans, right, who found it
> totally unacceptable that i dared to present myself as DPL, and chose to
> hurry to search expulsion supporters to punish me for it ?

Sven, could you "slide" back to your own parallel world, and send back the
yourself from this world, please ?

Mike


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Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.

[Mike Hommey]

On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 02:12:19PM +0200, Sven Luther wrote:
> On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 02:07:06PM +0200, Andreas Barth wrote:
> > * Sven Luther ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [070529 13:58]:
> > > On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 01:40:55PM +0200, Joey Schulze wrote:
> > > > Sven Luther wrote:
> > > > > Ok, but this was only the 'goute qui a fait deborder le vase', the
> > > > > bigger problem remains as a raw wound, for me, and for debian as a
> > > > 
> > > > The - what you call - bigger problem has been discussed enough.  More
> > > > mails won't change anything positively with regards to it and you.
> > > > You should accept this.
> > > 
> > > Then what will change it ?
> > 
> > Just leave Debian.
> 
> Why should i ? Just because debian is unable tyo recognize it has
> behaved badly in this matter, and make amends ? 
> 
> It is so easy to solve this issue in an honourable way, so easy, and i
> have been asking for an honourable and fair solution since over a year
> now.
> 
> Just leave Debian, like that, and who will give me back all those years
> and uncountable hours i have sacrificed to debian ? Or the actual money
> and time and equipement i have given to debian ? 

So leave and sue.

Mike


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Re: Another level of agression ?

[Mike Hommey]

On Sun, May 27, 2007 at 11:45:31PM +0200, Pierre Habouzit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> On Sun, May 27, 2007 at 11:03:50AM -0600, Wesley J. Landaker wrote:
> > On Sunday 27 May 2007 10:52:49 Mohammed Adnène Trojette wrote:
> > > Hi Sven,
> > >
> > > are you part of an organisation called GNAA?
> > 
> > Regardless of how you[1] feel about Sven, can you please stop trolling him? 
> 
>   Damn, how fool was I. I was completely under the impression that *he*
> was the one trolling our lists for months.
> 
>   Makes me think, he can't be alone to generate all that flood, or he
> uses scripting. Maybe the latter given the very high redundancy of the
> content, wording and annoyance.

dadadodo ? polygen ?

Mike


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Re: When Debian 4.1 will arrive... will anyone care?

[Mike Hommey]

On Fri, Apr 20, 2007 at 03:17:34PM +1000, Craig Sanders <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> why the obsession with backports?
> 
> contrary to popular belief and self-delusion, 'stable+backports' is NO
> LONGER STABLE.
> 
> the only 'advantage' to using 'stable+backports' over 'stable+some
> packages from unstable or testing' is that you don't have that nasty
> label 'unstable'. to get that crucially important 'benefit', you're
> using packages from a repository with unsigned packages by unknown
> maintainers.
> 
> 
> IMO, if you need a 'stable' system with some newer packages, you're
> better off learning how apt's pinning stuff works than bothering with
> backports.  it's not hard.

There is a very good reason to prefer backports over unstable/testing
packages got with pinning: the glibc.

Mike


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Re: ideas....

[Mike Hommey]

On Sun, Apr 08, 2007 at 02:55:19AM -0500, Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> On Sun, 8 Apr 2007 08:55:25 +0200, Mike Hommey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: 
> 
> > On Sat, Apr 07, 2007 at 11:41:43PM -0500, Manoj Srivastava
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
> >> Being paid based on popularity does not alter the fact that some
> >> subset of people are being paid, and others are not, for what could
> >> be equivalent amounts of work done.  Such an imbalance would make
> >> Debian unpalatable for me, personally.  Other developers may or may
> >> not agree, but I for one think that injection of paid work into
> >> Debian would make Debian less fun for me.
> 
> > What injection ? There is already people being paid to work on Debian.
> 
> If you do not see the distinction between getting a job with an
>  external entity paying people to work on debian, and having ones fellow
>  developers in an a position to determine whether one gets money or not,
>  then I don't know how to explain it.
> 
> Already one could find reluctance in opposing aj or Ted or
>  Raphael on technical issues, even one feels it might not be in the best
>  interest of the project, since in the future one could be in need of
>  the money that could be steered ones way by the dunc tank powers that
>  be.
> 
> The injection of an employer-employee relationship in Debian is
>  not something I think is in the best interest of the project.

Sorry, I just zapped from my mind the part of the initial post where the
"framework" idea exposed just looks like dunc tank.

Indeed, such thing would be half new, since we've had the dunc tank
"experiment". But money is not something new in Debian, that was my
point. Some uses of it may, though.

Mike


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Re: ideas....

[Mike Hommey]

On Sat, Apr 07, 2007 at 11:41:43PM -0500, Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> Being paid based on popularity does not alter the fact that some
>  subset of people are being paid, and others are not, for what could be
>  equivalent amounts of work done.  Such an imbalance would make Debian
>  unpalatable for me, personally.  Other developers may or may not agree,
>  but I for one think that injection of paid work into Debian would make
>  Debian less fun for me.

What injection ? There is already people being paid to work on Debian.

Mike


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Re: Expulsion process: Sven Luther (aka: why I'm now convinced he needs therapy)

[Mike Hommey]

On Wed, Mar 28, 2007 at 01:59:46PM +0200, Sven Luther <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 28, 2007 at 01:54:44PM +0200, Mike Hommey wrote:
> > On Wed, Mar 28, 2007 at 01:14:22PM +0200, Sven Luther <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > Sven, will you stop replying -private mails on -project ?
> 
> Why should i ? I have been expelled from debian, and can't read -private
> anymore, so the thread need to move to an appropriate forum.

42nd time: you have not been expelled. And no, I don't want to hear
again that it's the same.

You can't read -private, but still can post in it, and people replying
to you can still put you as a recipient, so there is no problem posting
to -private, except the fact that it's a PITA to see more of your mails,
which is also the case with -project anyways.

Disclosing messages from -private without poster's agreement is a real
bad attitude.

> I have nothing to hide myself, but i understand that the powers-that-be in
> debian want to hide the shame of what they just have done.

You're really getting on my nerves with your fscking paranoiac attitude.

Mike


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Re: Expulsion process: Sven Luther (aka: why I'm now convinced he needs therapy)

[Mike Hommey]

On Wed, Mar 28, 2007 at 01:14:22PM +0200, Sven Luther <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Sven, will you stop replying -private mails on -project ?

Mike


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Re: notable Debian contributions in 2006

[Mike Hommey]

On Sat, Mar 24, 2007 at 09:00:20PM +0100, Joerg Schilling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> Roberto C. Sánchez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > > > I guess you missed Aurelien's mail [0]?  What about the other distros?
> > > 
> > >  Mail not addressed to me is send py people who are not interested
> > > in an answer from me.
> > > 
> > The Code of Conduct for the Debian lists indicates that CCs are to be
> > avoided unless explicitly requested.  Since you did not request one, I
> > imagine Aurelien did not send you one.  Of course, you are
> > participicating in list discussion and so should be subscribed to the
> > list.
> 
> If you like to ignore the nettiquette, this is your choice
> The nettiquette requires not to remove recipients from a list.

Seeing how you jumped on the original message to start this wonderful
useless thread, you seem to be either subscribed or have a special
interest in reading -project. There's no need to specifically Cc
messages to you.

Anyways, why don't you unsubscribe and stop watching this mailing list
instead of wasting everyone's time with your endless useless rants about
how your crap rules and how cdrkit sucks ?

Mike


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Re: http://www.us.debian.org/debian.css

[Mike Hommey]

On Mon, Feb 26, 2007 at 07:21:34PM +0100, Mike Hommey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 26, 2007 at 06:11:54AM -0800, len lennon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> > Please correct your css:
> > 
> > http://www.us.debian.org/debian.css
> > 
> > http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?uri=http://www.us.debian.org/
> > 
> > 673 #leftcol, #navbar, #navbar aProperty
> > -moz-border-radius doesn't exist : 15px
> 
> This is correct CSS. Properties that start with a - are reserved and
> extend the current CSS ruleset. 

For reference: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/syndata.html#q4

Mike


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Re: http://www.us.debian.org/debian.css

[Mike Hommey]

On Mon, Feb 26, 2007 at 06:11:54AM -0800, len lennon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Please correct your css:
> 
> http://www.us.debian.org/debian.css
> 
> http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?uri=http://www.us.debian.org/
> 
> 673   #leftcol, #navbar, #navbar aProperty
> -moz-border-radius doesn't exist : 15px

This is correct CSS. Properties that start with a - are reserved and
extend the current CSS ruleset. 

Mike


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Re: Debian logos and trademarks

[Mike Hommey]

On Thu, Feb 08, 2007 at 07:16:54PM +0100, Bastian Venthur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> "someone can only use it if we authorize it"

Actually, this is not exactly true. *Some* uses of it may require
authorization, depending on trademark laws. Note that, for example, if
you modify the logo enough that it isn't a trademark infringment, or
use it for a different class of goods and services than the one the logo
is registered for, you don't need permission.

The "no discrimination" problem is still there, though.

Mike


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Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!

[Mike Hommey]

On Sat, Jan 27, 2007 at 09:40:52PM +0100, Norbert Preining <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> On Sam, 27 Jan 2007, Piotr Dziubinski wrote:
> > Iceweasel and Firefox are a different products, very similar, but different.
> 
> Can YOU please explain me what *important* differences there are?
> 
> If you miss the firefox logo, and the word "firefox" in the title bar,
> then ok, well, run stable.
> 
> Otherwise I would like to see what kind of OPERATIONAL difference you
> have found:
> - you still can fall iceweasel as "firefox" on the command line
> - you can browse the web *IN THE EXACT SAME WAY*

To be fair, it's not exactly true, because upgrading from firefox to
iceweasel in debian means upgrading from version 1.0 or 1.5 to 2.0, and
there are substancial changes that some people dislike, myself included.

Which means Piotr is actually probably complaining about the fact that
iceweasel is not quite the same as firefox used to be on his desktop,
but on the other hand, if it were still named firefox, he would have the
same opinion.

Mike


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Re: Explications needed...

[Mike Hommey]

On Fri, Dec 29, 2006 at 07:58:34AM +0100, Sven Luther <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Don't you find it a bit hypocrit to have x86 uploads go directly to the
> archive, and not allowing even a single day delay which would allow to stop
> unclean DD-build-boxes breakage and a clean state, and on the other day let
> the other arches depend on the good will of the buildd maintainer, who is
> usually a single person, who doesn't communicate much, and who sometimes is
> not able to sign and thus upload the packages for a couple of days (sometimes
> more even, but i guess this is the exception).

It's even better than this. The DD could upload on any arch and let
buildds do the job for the others. The arch could even be arm.

Mike


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Re: Debian Etch Stable.

[Mike Hommey]

On Thu, Dec 14, 2006 at 03:32:16PM +1000, Anthony Towns 
 wrote:
> Given this isn't a "DPL" funding initiative, I think you're way off base.

It's not only because you subtly outsourced it.

Mike


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Re: Debian Etch Stable.

[Mike Hommey]

On Tue, Dec 12, 2006 at 06:15:03PM +1000, Anthony Towns 
 wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 12, 2006 at 09:11:31AM +0100, Julien BLACHE wrote:
> > Anthony Towns  wrote:
> > > Personally, I'd say that now would be the time for any anti-payment
> > > people to say "we can do this better, and look, we'll prove it", and make
> > > up their own target date for etch, and demonstrate how much energy and
> > Now if only you could understand that we don't give a shit about the
> > release date, that would be a great step forward.
> > Only quality matters.
> 
> Quality is not, and has never been, the question. 
> 
> The question is whether we can hit our quality target without forcing our
> users to put up with obsolete software -- either the previous release's
> because we keep delaying the release date, or the forthcoming release's
> because we have an overly extended freeze.

Which is why we release with gnome 2.14.

Mike


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Re: Use of tokens for access to Debian resources?

[Mike Hommey]

On Sat, Nov 11, 2006 at 06:37:37PM +, Mark Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 11, 2006 at 03:05:33PM +0100, Mario Lang wrote:
> 
> > In my opinion, RSA tokens are very evil, from an accessibility point of 
> > view.
> > Since you effectively state that only people with working eye-sight
> > are competent enough to use your system.
> 
> There are also smartcard based tokens (like GnuPG cards) which don't
> require retyping of codes.

But they require extra hardware.

Mike


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Re: Note to "Did you already MOO today..."

[Mike Hommey]

On Sat, Nov 11, 2006 at 10:35:11AM +0100, Luca Brivio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ([3] is noteworthy too...)

Don't forget the classic
http://www.clasohm.com/cows/guide1.html

Mike


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Re: Open Letter to Anthony Towns about the d-i mediation ...

[Mike Hommey]

On Sun, Nov 05, 2006 at 08:15:30PM +0100, Sven Luther <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Mike, if it is really all my fault and only my fault, please enlighten me on
> how to interpret the above exchange.
> 
> How can i be the problem, if i have many times tried to solve it, and was
> always rejected ? If you have a fair, honest and reasonable answer to this, i
> *REALLY* would like to know abou it, but just insisting as you do above that
> all problem is mine, isn't really helpful.

I'm not saying all the problem is yours, but damn, you're really a pain
in the ass to deal with. I know that I'm not easy, but damn, you're the
only person I even considered putting in a killfile.
I'm very glad I don't have to work with you.

Not friendly. At all.

Mike

PS: That is my last mail in this thread and all others involving you.


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Re: Open Letter to Anthony Towns about the d-i mediation ...

[Mike Hommey]

On Sun, Nov 05, 2006 at 03:42:01PM +0100, Sven Luther <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 31, 2006 at 09:48:14AM +0100, Sven Luther wrote:
> > Hi Anthony,
> 
> Well, we had a chat with both Anthony and Sledge the other day, where i
> explained my position, and asked for something to happen. I also sent them
> some mail, and well, was positive that something will happen out of this.
> 
> But then, ...
> 
> On Sat, Nov 04, 2006 at 06:40:22PM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote:
> > On Fri, Nov 03, 2006 at 09:13:12AM +0100, Sven Luther wrote:
> > > Right now, the problem, whatever the problem is, is not with me, [...]
> >
> > Sven, the problem is with you. It may not be wholly with you, but you're
> > certainly the major contributor. Until you can accept that fact, things
> > simply aren't going to improve for you.
> 
> Well, i am at a loss of what else to do, this is already the third time
> blah blah blah

This is exactly what Anthony was talking about... but you don't want to
understand. THAT is the problem with you.

For the nth time, it's not because the "mediation" doesn't end how you
would like it to end that it failed.

Mike


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Re: Please change the Maintainer: header when forking Debian

[Mike Hommey]

On Thu, Nov 02, 2006 at 09:11:31PM +0100, Loïc Minier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
> 
>  I've heard too many people complaining about it, so I wrote it down:
> 
> 
>  Feel free to tune the description of the problem, or support this open
>  request.
> 
>  Please add ideas for handling the problem below the list of Supporters
>  if you have some (one proposal I read was to rename Maintainer: to
>  Debian-Maintainer:, and set a different Maintainer for this particular
>  fork).

There are good ideas here:
http://people.debian.org/~calvin/unofficial/
Especially the bug reports part.

Mike


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Re: Position Statement to the Dunc-Tanc "experiment"

[Mike Hommey]

On Thu, Oct 26, 2006 at 07:46:00PM +0200, Joerg Jaspert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> Signed by:
> Jörg Jaspert, ftp-master assistant, DAM, DebConf Organizer
> Alexander Schmehl, Debian Developer, press, event manager, DebConf Organizer
> Alexander Wirt, Debian Developer
> Daniel Priem, New Maintainer
> Martin Würtele, Debian Developer
> Gerfried Fuchs, Debian Developer
> Patrick Jäger, User
> Otavio Salvador, Debian Developer
> Joey Schulze, Debian Developer, Security, DWN, DSA, press, promoter
> Felipe Augusto van de Wiel, New Maintainer
> Sam Hocevar, Debian Developer
> Pierre Habouzit, Debian Developer
> Julien Danjou, Debian Developer, Stable Release Manager
> Peter Palfrader, Debian Developer
> Julien Blache, Debian Developer, promoter
> Christoph Berg, Debian Developer, QA, NM front-desk
> Holger Levsen, New Maintainer, DebConf Organizer

If I'd have been aware of this letter before, I'd have asked to be in
that list. I fully agree with what Jörg wrote.

Mike Hommey, Debian Developer, Mozilla® hater.


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Re: Why Ubuntu is different, was: Minutes of an Ubuntu-Debian discussion that happened at Debconf

[Mike Hommey]

On Wed, Jun 28, 2006 at 08:49:14PM +0200, Pierre Habouzit <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>   Cooperating (like in tight cooperation) with Ubuntu is IMHO possible 
> iff on each packages, there is a period during when no distro has any 
> backlog wrt the other. Meaning that excepting some customization 
> patches (like an ubuntu/debian logo or theme) the packages should be in 
> sync. For a lot of packages, it's clearly not the case, and I hardly 
> see why it would be any time soon, it's not in Canonnical interest to 
> do so. I'm not really bitter about that.

It also happens that ubuntu patches are either useless or even
inadequate. In such cases ubuntu'd be better off using plain debian
packages (and I don't understand why they don't).

>   Though, I'm saddened[1] by the fact that some people really think that 
> scott's patches or any other automatic send of big uncommented patches 
> can be called "cooperation", because it's not as soon as the package is 
> big enough, because those interdiffs, debdiffs and other big trunk of 
> patches won't be usable for them. And guess what, I'm part of the KDE 
> team, where the packages are huge (a relibtoolization of the package is 
> often 1 to 2Mo-big patch, I defy anyone to look into such diffs the 10 
> or 20 lines that could be a useful backport)[2].

Sometimes, the patches are inexistant. I never found the firefox patches
in scott's diffs. Fortunately, Ubuntu's firefox maintainer *is* a *very*
good example of cooperation and sends his patches that could/should land
in Debian to our BTS. Ian, you rock. That needed to be said.

Cheers,

Mike


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Re: Call for a new DPL mediation ... This will be the only thread i will reply to in the next time about this issue.

[Mike Hommey]

On Tue, Jun 20, 2006 at 12:53:00PM +0200, cobaco (aka Bart Cornelis) <[EMAIL 
PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Tuesday 20 June 2006 11:49, Andreas Schuldei wrote:
> > * cobaco (aka Bart Cornelis) ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [060620 11:02]:
> > > judging from that Sven was definately in the wrong, of course that log
> > > doesn't give any explanation at all of Sven's side of the story, so it
> > > doesn't give enough information to get a complete picture.
> >
> > if you start only now to form your picture you seem to have
> > hidden under a rock for some time.
> 
> er, I think you misunderstood what I was talking about regarding "getting a 
> complete picture":
> I'm not talking about the "sven losing his commit rights on d-i" issue here. 
> I'm talking about the _unrelated_ "sven alledgly abusing his admin rights 
> on the alioth kernel project" issue. 
> 
> I don't follow the kernel list, haven't seen noice about it anywhere else 
> that I can remember, and the IRC-log quoted only shows 1 side of the story 
> hence not having a complete picture.

You obviously came out of your rock recently.  The log is a part of what
has emerged from the past months worth of sven vs d-i/d-k/debian
thread*s*

Mike


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Re: Call for a new DPL mediation ... This will be the only thread i will reply to in the next time about this issue.

[Mike Hommey]

On Mon, Jun 19, 2006 at 10:43:35PM -0700, Adam McKenna <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 19, 2006 at 09:12:15PM +0200, Mike Hommey wrote:
> > On Mon, Jun 19, 2006 at 04:53:18PM +0200, cobaco (aka Bart Cornelis) 
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > - AFAIK he hasn't ever abused his d-i commit rights (when he had them)
> > 
> > Just for the record, he may have not abused his d-i commit rights but
> > did abuse his d-k svn admin rights.
> 
> How, specifically?

http://www.wolffelaar.nl/~jeroen/sven-revokes-js-svn-from-kernel


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Re: Call for a new DPL mediation ... This will be the only thread i will reply to in the next time about this issue.

[Mike Hommey]

On Mon, Jun 19, 2006 at 04:53:18PM +0200, cobaco (aka Bart Cornelis) <[EMAIL 
PROTECTED]> wrote:
> - AFAIK he hasn't ever abused his d-i commit rights (when he had them)

Just for the record, he may have not abused his d-i commit rights but
did abuse his d-k svn admin rights.

Mike


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Re: Debian-based miniVDR violates GPL (FYI)

[Mike Hommey]

On Tue, May 23, 2006 at 10:43:40AM +0200, Ciuca, Josephine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> Hello
> 
> I just wanted to let you know about a GPL violation in the distribution
> miniVDR, a distribution based on Depian with so-called GPL licensed
> patches (www.minivdr.de). They refuse to share the sources and are
> willing to give them only for 15euros, which is way abusive and does not
> reflect the price of media and cd-burner usage. They constantly refused
> to share the sources on Sourceforge or any other OSS promoting service
> and even mailed me "the harddisk is broken, so no sources anymore". I
> have mails from the maintainer of the distribution where he stated I
> only get the sources for 15eur and if I think it's expensive, I should
> use other distribution. This is abusive usage of the GPL code. Please
> let me know if I should forward these mails too or if you need anything.

Do they distribute the binary version freely or is it that the binary
AND the source are available for 15 euros ? If the latter, there is no
infringement of the GPL.

Mike


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Re: Should this be how i am supposed to act in mailing list discussions ?

[Mike Hommey]

On Fri, May 05, 2006 at 11:54:14PM +0200, Sven Luther <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> 
> Some thoughts about email conversation ... Here i am having a public
> discussion with Mike. He says something, and i reply, we are having a
> discussion. It is normal that this brings longer threads, and even if more
> than just we two participate.
> 
> Still, this is exactly what some people seems to find anoying and are even
> offended by.

Still, you repeat the exact same things over and over and over and over
again. How many times do we have to read that Frans blahblah while your
mother blahblah. I'm not trying to say nothing happened and that you're
not going through difficult moments, I'm just saying you already said
it hundred times, we got it.

Now as for your proposal, you should apply to yourself what you complain
about others. *You* also have pride issues. And maybe a bit of paranoia.

Seing your recent posts, I'd say you're going through a pretty serious
breakdown, and you really should do something about it.

Very frankly, take a break, see a therapist, and come back to us when
you get things cleared up, I'm pretty sure you'll do great work then.
But right now, you need to think about yourself before thinking about
the powerpc port, debian, and the cabale. Yes, things can work out
without you, nobody is irreplaceable, don't worry for us. Worry for
yourself. Breakdowns are a serious thing, they have to be taken
seriously.

Take care,

Mike


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Re: Should this be how i am supposed to act in mailing list discussions ?

[Mike Hommey]

On Fri, May 05, 2006 at 11:33:15PM +0200, Sven Luther <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Fri, May 05, 2006 at 11:19:18PM +0200, Mike Hommey wrote:
> > On Fri, May 05, 2006 at 10:49:51PM +0200, Sven Luther <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > wrote:
> > >   2) on april 28, a week ago, i made the following proposal to Steve 
> > > McIntyre,
> > >   who the DPL delegated to speak with me :
> > > 
> > > If they refrained from bashing on me regularly again, and restored my 
> > > commit
> > > rights, and i would continue my one-post-per-day-per-thread policy, i 
> > > think
> > > this might be an acceptable compromise.
> > > 
> > A compromise is when everyone make some steps forward to agree on
> > something. From my point of view, you're asking for others to make these
> > steps forward, provided that you don't have to move. That's not a
> > compromise.
> 
> A compromise is when both sides give way a bit, so that we reach a point that
> everyone can accept. I made a proposal, and there was no reply. There was no
> proposal at all from the other side.

Your proposal sounds like they have to take back everything and you...
have nothing to do. How can that reach to a compromise ?

Mike


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Re: Should this be how i am supposed to act in mailing list discussions ?

[Mike Hommey]

On Fri, May 05, 2006 at 10:49:51PM +0200, Sven Luther <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Ok, i will try to play nice, and do as everyone asks from me, We will see if
> it works :
> 
>   1) I have asked the DPL to mediate this issue, with as far as i can see very
>   little effect, except it seems to me they have chosen to let the issue rot.
> 
>   2) on april 28, a week ago, i made the following proposal to Steve McIntyre,
>   who the DPL delegated to speak with me :
> 
> If they refrained from bashing on me regularly again, and restored my 
> commit
> rights, and i would continue my one-post-per-day-per-thread policy, i 
> think
> this might be an acceptable compromise.
> 
>   I also asked if there was any communication with Frans and the d-i team,
>   there has been some, but the only thing that came of it, was Frans apology
>   for not telling me that they where going to kick me.
> 
>   3) An apology for not telling me i was being kicked is not enough, what good
>   does it do ? There is still no recognition of the gravity of the action, nor
>   of the lack of decency involved in the timing of when it was done.
> 
>   4) As you see from my compromise, i don't really care that they apologize or
>   something, i am just asking that they don't stop me from doing useful work
>   for debian. If they dislike working with me, fine, they can ignore my mails,
>   and i hardly go to #debian-boot anymore, so there should be no problem
>   apart from their hurt pride.

A compromise is when everyone make some steps forward to agree on
something. From my point of view, you're asking for others to make these
steps forward, provided that you don't have to move. That's not a
compromise.

Mike


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Re: Reforming the NM process

[Mike Hommey]

On Wed, Apr 12, 2006 at 12:32:54PM +0200, Raphael Hertzog <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> I don't think the DM concept should end the sponsorship idea. But I do
> like to have a clear indication in the changelog of who sponsored who.
> It's a pain to have to use gpg to discover who sponsored the upload.

You already know that by looking at the GPG signature.

Mike


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Re: VA Linux / Sun Wah Linux to push Debian in China/Japan

[Mike Hommey]

Osamu wrote:
> Currently, Debian is seriously weak on easy Asian language support.
> Fonts, IM, ... 
> 
> One of the problem is we do not have enough available developers.
> 
> We have hard time finding sponsor with time and skill for IM packages
> even if some non-DD prepare package.

It would probably be good to have a debian-asia or whatever list, instead
of the multiple spam retention debian-country lists. People interested
in the Asian language support effort could go there to contribute.

Anyways, I'm ready to help for sponsorship, testing and stuff.
I'm quite interested and concerned with CJK problems, since I've been
running with LANG=ja_JP.UTF-8 for quite some time, and use UIM on a
regular basis for japanese and (very few) korean input.
I also gave a try to the promising SCIM, though I went back to UIM for
some reasons.

I think there are some others DD, not necessarily from CJK, in a similar
position that could be interested to join such effort.

Mike


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