Re: [Fwd: Problems contacting the debian people .... (was: new configuration to avoid spam at the lists)]
On Thursday 02 June 2005 22.38, Cord Beermann wrote: > So, my personal opinion is: you need listmaster knowledge to accuratly > decide which mails are important and which are not. If we find two > more people that qualify to do that, don't burnout them on a > listmaster-secretary desk, just add them to the listmaster-team. (The > 'easy' requests noted above are only 5-20 Mails/week, not a problem.) Ok - I was assuming the proportion of 'easy' requests to be higher. While I run some small mailing lists and have run a mailserver for quite a few years now, I'm not sure if I'd qualify for listmaster. As I'm not in a position to work on Debian during work hours, I can't offer too much time, but I think I could spare a few hours a week if listmaster do want this. (And I think we can take this off-list for further discussion if so.) cheers -- vb -- Protect your privacy - encrypt your email: http://fortytwo.ch/gpg/intro pgpIFQ4gPMiqD.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [Fwd: Problems contacting the debian people .... (was: new configuration to avoid spam at the lists)]
On Thu, Jun 02, 2005 at 06:41:53PM +0100, MJ Ray wrote: > Pascal Hakim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I try very hard to reply[1] to all (valid) emails sent to > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] as well as [EMAIL PROTECTED] It's > > becoming more and more apparent that I'm missing some of the queries > > that are addressed there. I'm guessing some of those emails are managing > > to hit both mine and Cord's spam filters, or arriving when both of us > > are busy for a couple of days. > > Do you review all listmaster@ mail (that is, a spam filter doesn't > delete it, just tags it)? > > I encourage people who use spam filters on official task addresses > to set up some sort of record of what got trapped. I see you already > have a http://people.debian.org/~pasc/dda-feb.mbox for one time. In addition to the numbers that Cord gave, there was a fair amount of stuff caught on murphy. To the best of my knowledge, that's only checked when there's some debugging going on and so on. To give you an idea of the scale of things, 41 hours since the start of its month, murphy has stopped ~8500 emails from reaching the listmaster alias. As far as the stuff that gets trapped on my end goes, I give it a quick eyeball once every two-three days, but it has to jump out at me while I'm pressing the down key. > > Most requests are still taken care of however; you'll only hear about > > those that are not taken care of. > > Indeed. That is the nature of these things. > > > Would a Debian Enquiry Response Team help? I'm not sure... Judging by > > the burnout we get in those sort of positions, I'm not sure that it > > would be that useful once the people silly enough to help have burnt out > > themselves. > > It looks rather like delegates are silently failing to > answer email anyway. Maybe the DPL team will consider doing > some "mystery shopper" tests of any delegates they've not > heard from yet? I'd like to think we're trying to put a release out =-) > > [1]: I have to admit that I don't reply to people asking for messages to > > be removed and/or altered on the listarchives. While the current stated > > list archives policy is "we don't do that, ever", I don't quite agree > > with that. There's no real concensus on changing that policy, and I'm > > not willing to cause a "Problems with Mr Hakim" thread on debian-devel > > just quite yet. > > I guess the proper thing is to point people to the policy at > http://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#disclaimer and leave it > at that. If they come back with "that's a stupid policy" then > suggest that they try to develop a change and build consensus > for it. > I did that for a year before I gave up. Too many people would then complain about it, complain about us, complain about debian in general, ask for an exception to be made for them, ask to talk to our boss, tell us about how this was affecting their dying grandmother, explain to us that they were getting too much spam from it, etc etc. Cheers, Pasc (still wearing his "listmaster are people too" badge) -- Pascal Hakim 0403 411 672 Do Not Bend -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Fwd: Problems contacting the debian people .... (was: new configuration to avoid spam at the lists)]
Hallo! Du (Adrian von Bidder) hast geschrieben:
>> Would a Debian Enquiry Response Team help?
>
>Yes, imho it could help - I could imagine offering myself to sort out sort
>out simple inquiries (point people to mailing lists or point out that our
>policy/current SOP doesn't include doing whatever the person might want)
>from requests that really require attention of a listmaster, for example.
>Would this take some noticeable load off the listmasters, or just would it
>just cause additional delay unitl listmasters see the real requests?
as we are currently two people that do the work (and i guess Pasc also
has a life) the simple requests that i answer with readymade texts
('no, we don't delete Mails after they passed our filters', 'please
answer the unsub-confirmation to get off the list') that could be of
some help.
>mails that
>I think some way for me to flag that listmaster attention is needed/is not
>needed for a specific request and some (vaguely) defined way of who takes
>care of requests when I don't answer a mail within some time would be the
>only prerequisites. With some common sense, a modern threading mailreader
>and cc:ing the listmaster address back on all replies with edited Subject
>lines), I think this could be done 99% - no complicated set up necessary.
The question is: which emails should go through the listmasters? What
knowledge does one need to decide this accuratly? sometimes some spam
bounces are important, or a block of unsuccessful unsub-requests. If
that is filtered out maybe some information is missing that the
'real'-listmasters would need to diagnose that there is a problem
somewhere.
>alternative: use a ticketing system (should probably only accessible to
>listmasters or at least only to DDs). But that would need some set up, and
>besides I haven't seen a ticketing system that satisfied me yet.
>
>Before I commit myself to this: how much traffic are we looking at?
690 went through the first line of defense on murphy and weren't
dropped by clamav here yesterday. today those were 835 up to now.
From those two days 140 made it through my filters. As I check the
junk filtered out sometimes i think that about 10 real false positives
are sorted out. (false positive doesn't mean real requests here, just
mails that could be of some interest for the listmasters, bounces,
autoresponders and challenge-response-requests).
So, my personal opinion is: you need listmaster knowledge to accuratly
decide which mails are important and which are not. If we find two
more people that qualify to do that, don't burnout them on a
listmaster-secretary desk, just add them to the listmaster-team. (The 'easy'
requests noted above are only 5-20 Mails/week, not a problem.) THat
would lower the possibility that all listmasters are dealing at the
same time with issues from another world.
Cord (also with the 'listmasters are people too'-badge)
--
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Re: [Fwd: Problems contacting the debian people .... (was: new configuration to avoid spam at the lists)]
On the original problem, I see now that http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=166028 is a good place to refer people wanting to antispam archives. I'm not sure why I didn't see it before. Must be blind. I probably should add my reasoning (debian lists have other archives and there are probably collector-bots subscribed too). Pascal Hakim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I try very hard to reply[1] to all (valid) emails sent to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] as well as [EMAIL PROTECTED] It's > becoming more and more apparent that I'm missing some of the queries > that are addressed there. I'm guessing some of those emails are managing > to hit both mine and Cord's spam filters, or arriving when both of us > are busy for a couple of days. Do you review all listmaster@ mail (that is, a spam filter doesn't delete it, just tags it)? I encourage people who use spam filters on official task addresses to set up some sort of record of what got trapped. I see you already have a http://people.debian.org/~pasc/dda-feb.mbox for one time. > Most requests are still taken care of however; you'll only hear about > those that are not taken care of. Indeed. That is the nature of these things. > Would a Debian Enquiry Response Team help? I'm not sure... Judging by > the burnout we get in those sort of positions, I'm not sure that it > would be that useful once the people silly enough to help have burnt out > themselves. It looks rather like delegates are silently failing to answer email anyway. Maybe the DPL team will consider doing some "mystery shopper" tests of any delegates they've not heard from yet? > [1]: I have to admit that I don't reply to people asking for messages to > be removed and/or altered on the listarchives. While the current stated > list archives policy is "we don't do that, ever", I don't quite agree > with that. There's no real concensus on changing that policy, and I'm > not willing to cause a "Problems with Mr Hakim" thread on debian-devel > just quite yet. I guess the proper thing is to point people to the policy at http://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#disclaimer and leave it at that. If they come back with "that's a stupid policy" then suggest that they try to develop a change and build consensus for it. -- MJ Ray (slef), K. Lynn, England, email see http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ http://people.debian.org/~mjr/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Fwd: Problems contacting the debian people .... (was: new configuration to avoid spam at the lists)]
On Thursday 02 June 2005 11.33, Pascal Hakim wrote: [mail to Debian role accounts being ignored sometimes] > Would a Debian Enquiry Response Team help? Yes, imho it could help - I could imagine offering myself to sort out sort out simple inquiries (point people to mailing lists or point out that our policy/current SOP doesn't include doing whatever the person might want) from requests that really require attention of a listmaster, for example. Would this take some noticeable load off the listmasters, or just would it just cause additional delay unitl listmasters see the real requests? I think some way for me to flag that listmaster attention is needed/is not needed for a specific request and some (vaguely) defined way of who takes care of requests when I don't answer a mail within some time would be the only prerequisites. With some common sense, a modern threading mailreader and cc:ing the listmaster address back on all replies with edited Subject lines), I think this could be done 99% - no complicated set up necessary. alternative: use a ticketing system (should probably only accessible to listmasters or at least only to DDs). But that would need some set up, and besides I haven't seen a ticketing system that satisfied me yet. Before I commit myself to this: how much traffic are we looking at? cheers -- vbi -- Today is Pungenday, the 7th day of Confusion in the YOLD 3171 pgp9Dode5fRVJ.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [Fwd: Problems contacting the debian people .... (was: new configuration to avoid spam at the lists)]
Hi, I've been a little busy in the last couple of weeks, and haven't had time to reply to this particular set of emails as it's more complicated than most requests. I will usually answer the easier requests first to get them out of the way. On Wed, Jun 01, 2005 at 11:07:52PM +0200, MarC wrote: > Hello, > > Can anybody help me? > > In order to suggest a "better" (IMO) configuration for the mailing lists > to avoid spam, I have sent several mails during my life to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] according to this subject and I never got any > answer. You have received some answers. At this point [EMAIL PROTECTED] just points to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > However, some weeks ago, I was able to contact > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and Pascal Hakim answered me (thank you!). > See below the content of such mail... > > Then, I reported to the users of the debian-catalan-user list his answer > and I did a poll to know their opinion about it which can be checked at > the archives of the list > (http://lists.debian.org/debian-user-catalan/2005/debian-user-catalan-200505/threads.html). > But since I reported back the results (16-5-2005) nobody has answered me > again... There are a few issues at play here. Firstly, I do not believe that this would actually help a huge amount. There are currently a few different other places where spammers can get those addresses. For example, most lists are currently replicated to NNTP services, where addresses are not obfuscated. I'm also convinced that there are spammer feeder bots subscribed to the lists. While I have no conclusive proof of this, both Anand and myself have seen strange behaviour that can probably only be explained by that. There's basically nothing that can be done about either of those. Secondly, there's a massive technical problem. A lot of things posted on lists are of a technical nature, and include at signs. Whether this is because they're stack traces, arch archive names, or perl arrays doesn't matter a great deal, you don't want those to be damaged. Finally, I'm not really willing to have this enabled for just one list. It's liable to cause even more problems in terms of administration. > >Finally we have realised that some spammers write directly to the list > >without being stopped by any moderator. I think we should also improve > >this. Do you think it's possible? See the "english posts" of > >http://lists.debian.org/debian-user-catalan/2005/debian-user-catalan-200505/threads.html > > > > I'm also not willing to add moderators to lists. Having moderators causes more problems than not having any. Cheers, Pasc (with his listmaster hat on) -- Pascal Hakim 0403 411 672 Do Not Bend -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Fwd: Problems contacting the debian people .... (was: new configuration to avoid spam at the lists)]
On Thu, Jun 02, 2005 at 10:19:22AM +0100, MJ Ray wrote: > MarC <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> skribis: [...] > > Now I am writing this email to this list after being told by MJ Ray > > that debian-www@lists.debian.org wasn't appropiate. > > I have also explained why I think antispamming lists.debian.org > is worse than useless. I didn't see that reply, but I agree that antispamming only in there would probably be useless (or make little difference). > > Please excuse me for cross posting but I would like to know why I'm > > having all this problems to contact the administrators of the lists. > [...] > > Just how widespread is this problem? I know I've had several > non-responses and Marco d'Itri has been reporting it too, and > now it seems that users are being ignored. This makes debian > look bad - if these delegates need more help answering email, > have they asked for it? Are we getting to the point where there > needs to be a "Debian Enquiry Response Team"? That said, would > delegates answer forwarded enquiries? It would be even worse to > send evasive replies while trying telepathy. > I try very hard to reply[1] to all (valid) emails sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] as well as [EMAIL PROTECTED] It's becoming more and more apparent that I'm missing some of the queries that are addressed there. I'm guessing some of those emails are managing to hit both mine and Cord's spam filters, or arriving when both of us are busy for a couple of days. Most requests are still taken care of however; you'll only hear about those that are not taken care of. Would a Debian Enquiry Response Team help? I'm not sure... Judging by the burnout we get in those sort of positions, I'm not sure that it would be that useful once the people silly enough to help have burnt out themselves. Cheers, Pasc (with his "Listmasters are people too" badge on) [1]: I have to admit that I don't reply to people asking for messages to be removed and/or altered on the listarchives. While the current stated list archives policy is "we don't do that, ever", I don't quite agree with that. There's no real concensus on changing that policy, and I'm not willing to cause a "Problems with Mr Hakim" thread on debian-devel just quite yet. -- Pascal Hakim 0403 411 672 Do Not Bend -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Fwd: Problems contacting the debian people .... (was: new configuration to avoid spam at the lists)]
MarC <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> skribis: [...] > Now I am writing this email to this list after being told by MJ Ray > that debian-www@lists.debian.org wasn't appropiate. I have also explained why I think antispamming lists.debian.org is worse than useless. > Please excuse me for cross posting but I would like to know why I'm > having all this problems to contact the administrators of the lists. [...] Just how widespread is this problem? I know I've had several non-responses and Marco d'Itri has been reporting it too, and now it seems that users are being ignored. This makes debian look bad - if these delegates need more help answering email, have they asked for it? Are we getting to the point where there needs to be a "Debian Enquiry Response Team"? That said, would delegates answer forwarded enquiries? It would be even worse to send evasive replies while trying telepathy. -- MJ Ray (slef), K. Lynn, England, email see http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ http://people.debian.org/~mjr/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[Fwd: Problems contacting the debian people .... (was: new configuration to avoid spam at the lists)]
Hello, Can anybody help me? In order to suggest a "better" (IMO) configuration for the mailing lists to avoid spam, I have sent several mails during my life to [EMAIL PROTECTED] according to this subject and I never got any answer. However, some weeks ago, I was able to contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] and Pascal Hakim answered me (thank you!). See below the content of such mail... Then, I reported to the users of the debian-catalan-user list his answer and I did a poll to know their opinion about it which can be checked at the archives of the list (http://lists.debian.org/debian-user-catalan/2005/debian-user-catalan-200505/threads.html). But since I reported back the results (16-5-2005) nobody has answered me again... Now I am writing this email to this list after being told by MJ Ray that debian-www@lists.debian.org wasn't appropiate. Please excuse me for cross posting but I would like to know why I'm having all this problems to contact the administrators of the lists. Writing to this list is for me the only way to find out how can I contact them since http://www.debian.org/contact points me to "wrong emails"... Thank you. If you think that I should have followed another procedure or I did something wrongly, let me know. Maybe it's my fault... Sincerely, Marc Vinyes (MarC) (In the debian-user-catalan, I am subscribed with my email "for commercial purposes which generate spam"; please see [EMAIL PROTECTED]) (Also, apologies for my english...) En/na Pascal Hakim ha escrit: On Wed, 2005-05-04 at 23:45 +0200, MarC wrote: I have sent several mails to [EMAIL PROTECTED] but I never got any answer. Now I'm trying with [EMAIL PROTECTED] I had to unsubscribe from the debian-user list because of SPAM. The email addresses are not filtered and I google could find easily my address because of its appearance at the list archives!! Out of debian, in every other list I have written to, they change @ with (AT) and . with (DOT) or something similar. Could you configure the debian lists with this option? At least some users at the debian-user-catalan would like to have this feature enabled. Hi, While it is possible to turn this option on, it has not been done as more people seem to prefer having this option off than on. Cheers, Pasc Hi again, We have done a Poll in our lists in order to see if people really prefered this option or they didn't. The question of the poll was: "replace @ with ARROBA at the debian-user-catalan list" and a large majority voted for YES. However we realised afterwards that "ARROBA" wasn't appropiate and that it would be better to replace @ with "A" at the debian-user-catalan list, because "A" is a more common preposition in our language. This doesn't change the opinion of the persons who voted, as the important issue is the fact of masking the @ symbols, so we would ask you to apply the last rule to the list. See the archive to check out the results and verify them if you wish: http://lists.debian.org/debian-user-catalan/2005/debian-user-catalan-200505/threads.html the following persons answered NO: albertfc A gmail.com txena A menta.net ahiv carlesmu A ya.com gulgulan A gmail.com griera A gmail.com the following persons answered YES: albert.gasset A estudiant.upc.edu jarashi A telefonica.net condor3000free A yahoo.es llistes A eines.info chaos.ct A gmail.com escarbat A gmail.com dimas A 4agost.net edubxb A ya.com linuxer A unraco.net gforns A gmail.com ivanmoret A telefonica.net apardalat A gmail.com jfontich A pie.xtec.es jordisayol A yahoo.es jvalverde A gmail.com jordi_2 A matias-guarro.com cancio A clara.co.uk txemaq A spymac.com kld A futurnet.es marcxscript A gmx.net manelmartinez A menta.net marcfurti A yahoo.es sarinyo A gmail.com march.masip A gmail.com miqueloliete A softhome.net orestes A tsc.upc.edu ptorutra A yahoo.es paucliment A ya.com pepe A elcorreu.net phalangana A yahoo.com qgil A interactors.coop rdelavega A cesca.es robert A cataloniahosting.com elizir A elizir.mine.nu llistadebiancat A ya.com santiagopm A wanadoo.es sargue A gmail.com tevibp A wanadoo.es ahiva5 A ole.com jordi A matarosensefils.net marc.bres A gmail.com Finally we have realised that some spammers write directly to the list without being stopped by any moderator. I think we should also improve this. Do you think it's possible? See the "english posts" of http://lists.debian.org/debian-user-catalan/2005/debian-user-catalan-200505/threads.html Thank you, MarC -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
