Re: Branding for Debian derivatives

[Adrian von Bidder]

On Tuesday 05 September 2006 10:11, Anthony Towns wrote:
>    2) Debian rolls out the red carpet for "Foo Linux"
>
>          2.a) http://henning.makholm.net/debian/debianbased.png

I like the carpet metaphor.  (... and I never liked the bottle)

Less whitespace in the logo:


(Font is "Steve Italic", btw.  I guess it's in a package somewhere as I 
don't recall installing any non-packaged fonts on this machine.)

Could use some further work, certainly - not sure about the font, and the 
swirl-to-carpet transition is not so smooth.

cheers
-- vbi



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Re: Branding for Debian derivatives

[Henning Makholm]

Scripsit Anthony Towns 

>  1.b) http://azure.humbug.org.au/~aj/tmp/distilled4.png
>   (created by Dana Sibera, aka Danamania, SVG available)

For the record, I like this - especially the upper variant - better
than my own proposal. The ability to miniaturize well and still be
recognizable is important for a logo with this function, which
derivates realistically are only going to display in conjunction
with N other parter/compatibility logos.

-- 
Henning Makholm   "It was intended to compile from some approximation to
 the M-notation, but the M-notation was never fully defined,
because representing LISP functions by LISP lists became the
 dominant programming language when the interpreter later became available."


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Re: Branding for Debian derivatives

[Anthony Towns]

On Sat, Jul 29, 2006 at 04:59:58PM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote:
> (a) a nice logo standing for "based on Debian", that derivatives
> can use

So a little over a month later [0], here's all the ideas we have so far:

   1)  "Foo Linux" is Debian -- distilled. We've taken the best bits of
   Debian, removed some of the rough edges and bottled the result. We
   hope you'll like it.

 1.a) http://www.debian.org/logos/officiallogo-100.jpg
  (use the "Official" logo with "Distilled" added)
 1.b) http://azure.humbug.org.au/~aj/tmp/distilled4.png
  (created by Dana Sibera, aka Danamania, SVG available)

   2) Debian rolls out the red carpet for "Foo Linux"

 2.a) http://henning.makholm.net/debian/debianbased.png
 2.b) http://dlgeek.net/debianderived.png

   3) "Foo Linux" is "Powered by Debian"

 3.a) http://people.debian.org/~jblache/debian-powered-1.png
 3.b) http://people.debian.org/~jblache/debian-powered-2.png
 3.c) http://people.debian.org/~jblache/debian-powered-2_open.png

   4) "Foo Linux" is derived from Debian

 4.a) http://people.debian.org/~jblache/debian-derived-1.png

Last call for other ideas on either a nice "meme" for derivatives or
a Debian derivative brand logo before we have a vote/poll/executive
decision...

Cheers,
aj

[0] http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2006/07/msg00241.html



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Re: Branding for Debian derivatives -- "Debian Distilled"

[Benjamin Seidenberg]

Henning Makholm wrote:
> Scripsit Anthony Towns 
>
>   
>> Okay, so this is just my idea. Add grains of salt to taste, etc.
>>
>> The idea is to take the Debian "official use" logo [0] which we've
>> never really made much use of, and declare it the logo for derivatives
>> instead. Add the word "distilled" [1] underneath, and you could describe
>> a derivative something like this:
>> 
>
> I'm not much for co-opting the bottle logo like this. True, it is
> seldom used, but some people do know what it is currently supposed to
> mean, and it will create confusion to start using it for something
> completely opposite.
>
> How about someting like
> 
> which shows Debian rolling out the red carpet for derivates? :-)
>
>   
Henning was nice enough to send me his source, and I played around with
it to get this:
http://dlgeek.net/debianderived.png

I really wish I had a better way to do the carpet's flair, but I
couldn't think of one. Any graphics people are welcome to improve on this.

Benjamin



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Re: Branding for Debian derivatives -- "Debian Distilled"

[Nick Phillips]

Henning Makholm wrote:
>
>> Okay, so this is just my idea. Add grains of salt to taste, etc.
>>
>> The idea is to take the Debian "official use" logo [0] which we've
>> never really made much use of, and declare it the logo for derivatives
>> instead. Add the word "distilled" [1] underneath, and you could describe
>> a derivative something like this:
>> 
>
> I'm not much for co-opting the bottle logo like this. True, it is
> seldom used, but some people do know what it is currently supposed to
> mean, and it will create confusion to start using it for something
> completely opposite.
>
> How about someting like
> 
> which shows Debian rolling out the red carpet for derivates? :-)
>   

To be honest, I don't think the bottle logo is any good for anything.
It's unbalanced, unmemorable, fiddly and pretty ugly.

Might be a good opportunity to run another competition, and at the same
time get some publicity for what we are trying to achieve -- explaining
why we need a logo would coincidentally also publicise our philosophy on
derivatives (cooperation with/encouragement of etc.)...

With luck we might even get a decent logo for that use out of it too ;-)


Cheers,


Nick


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Re: Branding for Debian derivatives -- "Debian Distilled"

[Anthony Towns]

On Sun, Jul 30, 2006 at 03:41:27PM +0200, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> As a more general comment: please avoid logos made by people with no
> design clue (I'm fully in the category "people with no design clue at
> all").  Don't get me wrong: I fully appreciate the efforts made by
> people to mock up logo ideas, but a real life logo is a serious issue,
> better leave it to skilled people. What about proposing the bottled
> unrough swirl idea to the creative geeks folks? [1]
> [1] http://www.creative-geeks.org/

Please do. I know there are lots of people with neat artistic skills
involved in the Debian community, I'm just not one of them. :)

Cheers,
aj


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Re: Branding for Debian derivatives -- "Debian Distilled"

[Stefano Zacchiroli]

On Sun, Jul 30, 2006 at 01:36:55AM +0200, Adeodato Simó wrote:
> I personally like the "bottled" and "unrough swirl" ideas quite much,
> but I wouldn't like to loose the Official logo for that. But if someone
> with design abilities would prepare e.g. a transparent bottle with an
> unrough swirl inside, I'd be all for it.

That would be cool, I like the idea too.

As a more general comment: please avoid logos made by people with no
design clue (I'm fully in the category "people with no design clue at
all").  Don't get me wrong: I fully appreciate the efforts made by
people to mock up logo ideas, but a real life logo is a serious issue,
better leave it to skilled people. What about proposing the bottled
unrough swirl idea to the creative geeks folks? [1]

Cheers.

[1] http://www.creative-geeks.org/

-- 
Stefano Zacchiroli -*- Computer Science PhD student @ Uny Bologna, Italy
[EMAIL PROTECTED],debian.org,bononia.it} -%- http://www.bononia.it/zack/
If there's any real truth it's that the entire multidimensional infinity
of the Universe is almost certainly being run by a bunch of maniacs. -!-


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Re: Branding for Debian derivatives

[Anthony Towns]

On Sun, Jul 30, 2006 at 08:06:51AM +0200, Martin Schulze wrote:
> > (a) they'll listen to their users and do their best to incorporate
> > that input in future releases
> > (b) they'll cooperate with the free software community, both
> > in making every effort to make any free software they write
> > easy to include in other products, and in complying with
> > the licenses of the free software they use and distribute
> I wonder if it's only me who is missing several pieces:

So what would it look like if you added them? 

> No link to the Debian Bug Tracking system.

For example "(c) Should link to bugs.debian.org" wouldn't really be a
very useful requirement.

The other complication is that generally we want people to look after
bugs in derived distributions themselves first, and only forward them
to us (or upstream in general) when they've checked to see it's not a
bug they've introduced in their derivative (by using different kernels,
libraries, packaging, etc).

My suspicion is we'll end up with a much more satisfactory result if we
look at external bug trackers ourselves (as per [0]) rather than expecting
derivatives (or their users) to meet our standards for reporting and
resolving bugs.

> No mention to work together with the Debian maintainer.

I don't think that should be a requirement; particularly if it's a one
person derivative who's making changes to many packages on their own.

> No mention to discuss development aspects on Debian mailing lists.

Development that's not happening in Debian is off-topic for most of those
lists. Cf the response to [1].

That said, I'd like to see /something/ of this nature -- it would be
really nice for there to be some reasonable way of following the changes
derivatives make without having to essentially be a developer of the
derivative. Maybe some combination of Planet  or 
Weekly News or patch archives like Scott James Remnant does for Ubuntu,
or something would make sense; but it will likely have to vary depending
on, at least, the scope of the derivative -- having all those things
is probably legitimate to expect of something as large as Linspire,
or as popular as Knoppix, but probably not to expect of Damn Small Linux.

It's also possible that there isn't a good answer on this score yet,
and it'll just be something we have to revise later when we work out a
good way of doing it.

> No mention about making incompatible changes that will result in the
> derivate becoming incompatible with its root.

Of course not, that's a fundamental right of all free software licenses.
For comparison, Debian GNU/Hurd and Debian GNU/Linux are more
"incompatible" than Debian i386 and Ubuntu i386, afaics, eg.

> No mention to let patches flow back into Debian or the Free Software
> community via official means (i.e. BTS, mailing lists).

Cf the BTS/development stuff above.

> No mention to not use steganographic means to hide real patches in
> loads of changes that affect what the world knows as branding.

Steganography is an entirely different thing to just collating unrelated
changes. But "making every effort to make any free software they write
easy to include in other products" was meant to cover both those cases
anyway.

> No mention that the derivate should (really should, pretty please)
> stay to its roots, i.e. Debian and promote Debian.

Just using the Debian brand is already promoting Debian, afaics.

> No mention that the derivate should link to the Debian website (only
> vice versa).

That's easy to add; but doesn't seem all that interesting... We're already
pretty easy to find, aren't we? We're certainly already linked from [2],
and we could pretty easily provide the logo with a recommended place to
link to when using it on your website.

Cheers,
aj

[0] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2006/05/msg1.html
[1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2006/01/msg8.html
[2] http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/relationship



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Re: Branding for Debian derivatives

[Martin Schulze]

Anthony Towns wrote:
> So, following the discussions at DebConf [0], the "Debian Powered" logo
> ideas [1], and a couple of other chats I've had the privelege of having
> with some folks working on Debian derivatives and Debian-based distros and
> similar things, I'd like us to introduce an official branding programme
> for derivatives -- which I'll count as any providing Debian software to
> other people that's not just an official CD. So that includes things like
> Ubuntu, Knoppix, or Linspire, but potentially also things like Debian-Edu,
> or Debian CGL [2].
> 
> The drawback to just doing that without any further thought, is that
> providing branding gives a derivative not just the opportunity to benefit
> from Debian's reputation of supporting free software, being open and
> community driven, and focussing obsessively on quality, but also to
> potentially sully that reputation by letting users think this is a
> "Debian" product, but not living up to Debian's reputation, whether that
> be by not caring about free software issues, or ignoring their users'
> complaints, or whatever. And that's not just bad for Debian, but for all
> the other derivatives who choose to share in Debian's reputation as well
> as its code.
> 
> So, what I'm thinking is basically a trade, where Debian offers to help
> our derivatives get the benefits of Debian's reputation, and where the
> derivative commits to helping build that reputation, both to its own
> benefit, but also to Debian and other derivatives.
> 
> My best guess at what the latter means is something like this: that 
> derivatives
> should provide a clear, written commitment to their users and the free 
> software
> community that:
> 
> (a) they'll listen to their users and do their best to incorporate
> that input in future releases
> 
> (b) they'll cooperate with the free software community, both
> in making every effort to make any free software they write
> easy to include in other products, and in complying with
> the licenses of the free software they use and distribute

I wonder if it's only me who is missing several pieces:

No link to the Debian Bug Tracking system.

No mention to work together with the Debian maintainer.

No mention to discuss development aspects on Debian mailing lists.

No mention about making incompatible changes that will result in the
derivate becoming incompatible with its root.

No mention to let patches flow back into Debian or the Free Software
community via official means (i.e. BTS, mailing lists).

No mention to not use steganographic means to hide real patches in
loads of changes that affect what the world knows as branding.

No mention that the derivate should (really should, pretty please)
stay to its roots, i.e. Debian and promote Debian.

No mention that the derivate should link to the Debian website (only
vice versa).

Regards,

Joey

-- 
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Re: Branding for Debian derivatives -- "Debian Distilled"

[Adeodato Simó]

* Anthony Towns [Sat, 29 Jul 2006 17:11:40 +1000]:

> Okay, so this is just my idea. Add grains of salt to taste, etc.

> The idea is to take the Debian "official use" logo [0] which we've
> never really made much use of, and declare it the logo for derivatives
> instead. Add the word "distilled" [1] underneath, and you could describe
> a derivative something like this:

> "Foo Linux" is Debian -- distilled. We've taken the best bits of
> Debian, removed some of the rough edges and bottled the result. We
> hope you'll like it.

> Coincidentally the official logo has a swirl without the Debian swirl's
> rough bits, and a bottle! And I think "removing the rough edges" and
> "bottling it" is a pretty fair description of the aims of many Debian
> derivatives to boot. And I don't think it's entirely unfair to say that
> developers and users who prefer Debian itself also tend to prefer the
> rough edges and raw flavour of Debian too.

> Anyway, it's just an idea that I thought was interesting, please do
> come up with your own ideas, or hack this one to pieces by changing the
> description or coming up with a different logo, or whatever.

I personally like the "bottled" and "unrough swirl" ideas quite much,
but I wouldn't like to loose the Official logo for that. But if someone
with design abilities would prepare e.g. a transparent bottle with an
unrough swirl inside, I'd be all for it.

Just my opinion.

Cheers,

-- 
Adeodato Simó dato at net.com.org.es
Debian Developer  adeodato at debian.org
 
  Listening to: Michael Jackson - Can't let her get away


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Re: Branding for Debian derivatives -- "Debian Distilled"

[Felipe Augusto van de Wiel (faw)]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 07/29/2006 06:13 AM, Henning Makholm wrote:
> Scripsit Anthony Towns 
> 
>>Okay, so this is just my idea. Add grains of salt to taste, etc.
>>
>>The idea is to take the Debian "official use" logo [0] which we've
>>never really made much use of, and declare it the logo for derivatives
>>instead. Add the word "distilled" [1] underneath, and you could describe
>>a derivative something like this:
> 
> 
> I'm not much for co-opting the bottle logo like this. True, it is
> seldom used, but some people do know what it is currently supposed to
> mean, and it will create confusion to start using it for something
> completely opposite.
> 
> How about someting like
> 
> which shows Debian rolling out the red carpet for derivates? :-)

IMHO, I also don't like the idea to use the bottle in that
case. I really like the idea from Julien BLACHE about a "Debian
Powered Logo", he proposed it in -project a while ago:

http://people.debian.org/~jblache/debian-powered-1.png
http://people.debian.org/~jblache/debian-powered-2.png
http://people.debian.org/~jblache/debian-powered-2_open.png
http://people.debian.org/~jblache/debian-derived-1.png


Originally suggested in a similar thread:

http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2006/06/msg00329.html
http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2006/07/msg5.html


Kind regards,

- --
Felipe Augusto van de Wiel (faw)
"Debian. Freedom to code. Code to freedom!"
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Re: snapshot.d.net mirror (Re: Branding for Debian derivatives)

[Martin Schulze]

Martin Michlmayr wrote:
> * Anthony Towns <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2006-07-29 16:59]:
> > That would require us to maintain an essentially permanent archive
> > for source packages, which at the moment we don't. But doing so
> > would be useful for us too, no?
> 
> By the way, can you please authorize funds to buy (or find a sponsor
> for) some hard drives for a snapshot.d.net mirror and look for someone
> who wants to run one.  It's an incredibly useful service and I'd hate
> to see us lose this data.  [In fact, some data has already been lost
> since the idea of a mirror came up :(]

FWIW: This is already in progress.

I fully agree that it's extremely useful.

Regards,

Joey

-- 
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Re: Branding for Debian derivatives -- "Debian Distilled"

[Henning Makholm]

Scripsit Anthony Towns 

> Okay, so this is just my idea. Add grains of salt to taste, etc.
>
> The idea is to take the Debian "official use" logo [0] which we've
> never really made much use of, and declare it the logo for derivatives
> instead. Add the word "distilled" [1] underneath, and you could describe
> a derivative something like this:

I'm not much for co-opting the bottle logo like this. True, it is
seldom used, but some people do know what it is currently supposed to
mean, and it will create confusion to start using it for something
completely opposite.

How about someting like

which shows Debian rolling out the red carpet for derivates? :-)

-- 
Henning Makholm  "Wir kommen nun ans Ziel unserer Ausführungen."

Re: snapshot.d.net mirror (Re: Branding for Debian derivatives)

[Anthony Towns]

On Sat, Jul 29, 2006 at 09:48:40AM +0200, Martin Michlmayr wrote:
> * Anthony Towns <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2006-07-29 16:59]:
> > That would require us to maintain an essentially permanent archive
> > for source packages, which at the moment we don't. But doing so
> > would be useful for us too, no?
> By the way, can you please authorize funds to buy (or find a sponsor
> for) some hard drives for a snapshot.d.net mirror and look for someone
> who wants to run one. It's an incredibly useful service and I'd hate
> to see us lose this data.  [In fact, some data has already been lost
> since the idea of a mirror came up :(]

(a) For source stuff, the morgue on ftp-master has (ttbomk) complete
copies of all sources uploaded going a few years back now. Accessible
only to ftpmaster (or ftpteam?) atm, but available on request if needed.

(b) As far as looking for people is concerned, I don't have time :(

(c) As far as authorising funds (for this or other things) goes, please
give a concrete amount that's needed, a definite statement of what the
purpose/benefit is, and where possible Cc a public mailing list like
this one. (And don't be afraid to repeatedly nag me, particularly on IRC,
if I don't get around to replying)

HTH.

Cheers,
aj


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snapshot.d.net mirror (Re: Branding for Debian derivatives)

[Martin Michlmayr]

* Anthony Towns <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2006-07-29 16:59]:
> That would require us to maintain an essentially permanent archive
> for source packages, which at the moment we don't. But doing so
> would be useful for us too, no?

By the way, can you please authorize funds to buy (or find a sponsor
for) some hard drives for a snapshot.d.net mirror and look for someone
who wants to run one.  It's an incredibly useful service and I'd hate
to see us lose this data.  [In fact, some data has already been lost
since the idea of a mirror came up :(]
-- 
Martin Michlmayr
http://www.cyrius.com/


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Re: Branding for Debian derivatives -- "Debian Distilled"

[Anthony Towns]

On Sat, Jul 29, 2006 at 04:59:58PM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote:
> The other question is what logo we should use that sums up our ideas
> about derivatives, and is pretty and that people want to use. I'd *love*
> to hear ideas for that; I'll also followup with a sketch of an idea I
> think is possible.

Okay, so this is just my idea. Add grains of salt to taste, etc.

The idea is to take the Debian "official use" logo [0] which we've
never really made much use of, and declare it the logo for derivatives
instead. Add the word "distilled" [1] underneath, and you could describe
a derivative something like this:

"Foo Linux" is Debian -- distilled. We've taken the best bits of
Debian, removed some of the rough edges and bottled the result. We
hope you'll like it.

Coincidentally the official logo has a swirl without the Debian swirl's
rough bits, and a bottle! And I think "removing the rough edges" and
"bottling it" is a pretty fair description of the aims of many Debian
derivatives to boot. And I don't think it's entirely unfair to say that
developers and users who prefer Debian itself also tend to prefer the
rough edges and raw flavour of Debian too.

Anyway, it's just an idea that I thought was interesting, please do
come up with your own ideas, or hack this one to pieces by changing the
description or coming up with a different logo, or whatever.

Cheers,
aj

[0] http://www.debian.org/logos/officiallogo-100.jpg

[1] distill
  v 1: remove impurities from, increase the concentration of, and
   separate through the process of distillation; "purify
   the water" [syn: {purify}, {sublimate}, {make pure}]



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Branding for Debian derivatives

[Anthony Towns]

Hi all,

So, following the discussions at DebConf [0], the "Debian Powered" logo
ideas [1], and a couple of other chats I've had the privelege of having
with some folks working on Debian derivatives and Debian-based distros and
similar things, I'd like us to introduce an official branding programme
for derivatives -- which I'll count as any providing Debian software to
other people that's not just an official CD. So that includes things like
Ubuntu, Knoppix, or Linspire, but potentially also things like Debian-Edu,
or Debian CGL [2].

The drawback to just doing that without any further thought, is that
providing branding gives a derivative not just the opportunity to benefit
from Debian's reputation of supporting free software, being open and
community driven, and focussing obsessively on quality, but also to
potentially sully that reputation by letting users think this is a
"Debian" product, but not living up to Debian's reputation, whether that
be by not caring about free software issues, or ignoring their users'
complaints, or whatever. And that's not just bad for Debian, but for all
the other derivatives who choose to share in Debian's reputation as well
as its code.

So, what I'm thinking is basically a trade, where Debian offers to help
our derivatives get the benefits of Debian's reputation, and where the
derivative commits to helping build that reputation, both to its own
benefit, but also to Debian and other derivatives.

My best guess at what the latter means is something like this: that derivatives
should provide a clear, written commitment to their users and the free software
community that:

(a) they'll listen to their users and do their best to incorporate
that input in future releases

(b) they'll cooperate with the free software community, both
in making every effort to make any free software they write
easy to include in other products, and in complying with
the licenses of the free software they use and distribute

I'm inclined to think that's the essence of the Debian reputation --
listening to their users through things like bug reports, mailing lists or
web forums, and working with the free software community more generally,
by complying with licenses and passing their changes back upstream. I
wonder if there should also be something about doing development in public
in some way, but I'm not sure how you'd phrase that without making it
hard for single-person derivatives.

In return, I think Debian should make it easy and desirable for derivatives to
be part of the "derivative community", by providing at least:

(a) a nice logo standing for "based on Debian", that derivatives
can use

(b) linking from the Debian website so people can find out about niche
derivatives more easily

(c) cooperation on press releases -- eg, quotes from the DPL
or others for inclusion in their press releases, and
references from Debian press releases when interesting
things happen

(d) a supportive basis for future cooperation and consultation

(a) and (b) are mostly practical ways of saying "derivatives are okay
by us" -- and after all that's what free software's about, right? (c)
is about giving Debian some benefit from the cool, innovative things
derivatives manage to do while also giving smaller derivatives a bigger
platform to tell people about those cool things. (d) is about making sure
that we don't just stop here, but go on and make a point of working more
closely with derivatives in the future.

One example of that which has come up recently is the issue of GPL
compliance for derivative distributions -- if you're making a live cd
based on Debian that includes some neat graphical app you wrote, it
would be much more convenient if you could just distribute the source
to the app and point people at Debian for the sources of all the stuff
they didn't change. That would require us to maintain an essentially
permanent archive for source packages, which at the moment we don't. But
doing so would be useful for us too, no?

So that's most of what I'm thinking at the moment. What I'd really like
is to see some comments, criticisms and other ideas before I push any
further ahead and actually go ahead with a formal programme for this.

The other question is what logo we should use that sums up our ideas
about derivatives, and is pretty and that people want to use. I'd *love*
to hear ideas for that; I'll also followup with a sketch of an idea I
think is possible.

Cheers,
aj

[0] http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2006/06/msg00278.html
[1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2006/06/msg00329.html
[2] http://wiki.debian.org/Debian-CGL


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