Re: [Draft] GR: diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Steve Langasek]

On Mon, May 07, 2012 at 08:05:33PM +0200, Francesca Ciceri wrote:
> > I agree that this should go out. Just, we have "our community" twice in
> > the text. Any linguistic expertise with us we could possibly
> > welcome? 

> LOL

> > Anyway, it sounds strange enough to me to suggest
> > substituting the first occurrence with just "us". And, since we also
> > want new contributors to also interact constructively between
> > themselves, and since to me it is somewhat redundant in the first
> > place, I would even feel inclined to remove the "with our community".

> I'm not sure about removing the "with our community", but as this is a
> style problem (and not a content one) I'd postpone the discussion on it
> (asking for proofread on -l10n-english) after the vote.

I can't agree with this.  The wording of position statements matters - what
we ratify should be posted word for word on the website.

But I also think the crowdsourced review on debian-project has already been
more than sufficient and don't think there's any point in further
"proofreading" on -l10n-english.

-- 
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Re: [Draft] GR: diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Francesca Ciceri]

Hi Steffen, 

On Mon, May 07, 2012 at 10:18:28AM +0200, "Steffen Möller" wrote:

 
> I agree that this should go out. Just, we have "our community" twice in
> the text. Any linguistic expertise with us we could possibly
> welcome? 

LOL

> Anyway, it sounds strange enough to me to suggest
> substituting the first occurrence with just "us". And, since we also
> want new contributors to also interact constructively between
> themselves, and since to me it is somewhat redundant in the first
> place, I would even feel inclined to remove the "with our community".

I'm not sure about removing the "with our community", but as this is a
style problem (and not a content one) I'd postpone the discussion on it
(asking for proofread on -l10n-english) after the vote.

Cheers,
Francesca

-- 
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e nostra legge è la libertà
ed un pensiero
ribelle in cor ci sta." P.Gori


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Re: [Draft] GR: diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Steffen Möller]

 Original-Nachricht 
> Datum: Sun, 6 May 2012 23:23:23 -0700
> Von: Steve Langasek 
> An: debian-project@lists.debian.org, debian-v...@lists.debian.org
> Betreff: Re: [Draft] GR: diversity statement for the Debian Project

> On Thu, May 03, 2012 at 12:32:03AM +0200, Francesca Ciceri wrote:
> > DRAFT TO BE VOTED STARTS HERE
> > 
> > The Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone.
> > 
> > It doesn't matter how you identify yourself or how others perceive you:
> > we welcome you. We welcome contributions from everyone as long as they
> > interact constructively with our community.
> > 
> > While much of the work for our project is technical in nature, we
> > value and encourage contributions from those with expertise
> > in other areas, and welcome them into our community.
> > 
> > DRAFT TO BE VOTED ENDS HERE
> 
> Seconded.  I know you haven't called for seconds yet, but I don't see any
> reason to wait when this has already reached broad consensus on
> debian-project.


I agree that this should go out. Just, we have "our community" twice in the 
text. Any linguistic expertise with us we could possibly welcome? 
Anyway, it sounds strange enough to me to suggest substituting the first 
occurrence with just "us". And, since we also want new contributors to also 
interact constructively between themselves, and since to me it is somewhat 
redundant in the first place, I would even feel inclined to remove the "with 
our community". Second paragraph untouched.

Steffen


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Re: [Draft] GR: diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Steve Langasek]

On Thu, May 03, 2012 at 12:32:03AM +0200, Francesca Ciceri wrote:
> DRAFT TO BE VOTED STARTS HERE
> 
> The Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone.
> 
> It doesn't matter how you identify yourself or how others perceive you:
> we welcome you. We welcome contributions from everyone as long as they
> interact constructively with our community.
> 
> While much of the work for our project is technical in nature, we
> value and encourage contributions from those with expertise
> in other areas, and welcome them into our community.
> 
> DRAFT TO BE VOTED ENDS HERE

Seconded.  I know you haven't called for seconds yet, but I don't see any
reason to wait when this has already reached broad consensus on
debian-project.

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[Draft] GR: diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Francesca Ciceri]

Dear Debian Developers,

A recent discussion [1] on Debian Women mailing list made me realize that
the Debian Project, the community behind the *Universal* Operating
System, doesn't have a diversity statement.
The *technical* part of the project is already commited to diversity: we
don't accept (in our main repository) licenses which discriminate for
persons, groups or fields of endeavor (DFSG, points 5. and 6.).
IMO is time for a similar statement also for the *community* part of the
project.

Below (between "" lines) you'll find the draft of
the text to be voted. I'm not looking for seconds yet, but rather issues
in the proposed text. I'll call for seconds soon.

At the end of the mail, a couple of FAQ about the diversity statement, 
raised during the debate on -project, which hopefully will be useful 
for peole who didn't follow the (one-month long) thread.

Thank you for your attention,
Francesca

DRAFT TO BE VOTED STARTS HERE

The Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone.

It doesn't matter how you identify yourself or how others perceive you:
we welcome you. We welcome contributions from everyone as long as they
interact constructively with our community.

While much of the work for our project is technical in nature, we
value and encourage contributions from those with expertise
in other areas, and welcome them into our community.

DRAFT TO BE VOTED ENDS HERE

== FAQ ==

Q: What is a diversity statement?
A: A diversity statement is a document expliciting something really
important: that everyone (regardless of whatever thing people may usually
be discriminated for) is welcome to join our project.

Q: Why we need a GR for it?
A: During the last two months, various people helped me in drafting one
for the Debian Project [2]. We reach a wide consensus on the text, but 
as for Constitution §4.1.5 for "[position] statement" a GR is necessary
(see [3]).
So, here we are. :)

Q: Which will be the consequences of adopting it?
A: A diversity statement is *not* a Code of Conduct. We are not adding
new rules. As Russ Allbery said [4]: 
"It's a statement of ideals.  Statements of ideals don't generally change
things in the way that, oh, code or even enforced policies change things.
The influence is at best subtle. But I think statements of ideals are
useful things to have because they help people think about ideals, and
remember that the ideals are important, and that we can all do something
to live up to those ideals.  And that that can be as significant of an
action as fixing a technical bug."

Q: What about hateful ideologies? Do we welcome them as well?
A: Here the relevant bit is: "We welcome contributions from everyone as
long as they interact constructively with our community". 
In addition, let me borrow again some words from Russ [5]: "The point of
a diversity statement is not to accept all behavior of any
kind.  It's to make a positive statement about what sort of behavior
we're actively seeking out and want to align".

Q: What will be the procedure for maintaining/updating the statement, 
once voted?
A: The gist of the statement will be fixed by the GR. But in order to
avoid needing a vote for every minor tweak, language improvements can be
applied by the -www team as for other parts of www.d.o and more
substantial changes, that do not change the spirit, can be discussed on
-project.

[1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-women/2012/03/msg6.html (and
following messages)
[2] http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2012/03/msg00048.html (and
following messages)
[3] http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2012/04/msg00088.html
[4] http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2012/03/msg00060.html
[5] http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2012/03/msg00061.html


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Russ Allbery]

Ian Jackson  writes:
> Francesca Ciceri writes ("Diversity statement for the Debian Project"):

>> So, I wrote a draft - mainly based on the one [4] created for Ubuntu by
>> Matt Zimmerman with the help of Mary Gardiner, Valerie Aurora and
>> Benjamin Mako Hill - and I'd like to propose it to the DPL to be
>> official published.

> I agree with the motives behind this.  But I have are some
> difficulties with your wording; or, if you prefer, I feel this needs
> to be qualified.

[...]

In case anyone else was also confused by this message: it appears to have
gotten stuck in a mail queue somewhere and is nearly a month old.  So if
it looks like a replay of an earlier conversation, that's because it is.  :)

-- 
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Re: Re: xth wrap-up about statement on diversity, statement may be issued without general resolution (Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project)

[Filipus Klutiero]

Hi Stefano,

Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:

On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 09:47:04PM -0400, Filipus Klutiero wrote:
>  The message from Stefano Zacchiroli quoted below includes a wrap-up
>  (of the wrap-up (of the...)) about the statement on diversity in
>  contributors proposed by Francesca Ciceri.
>  Stefano asked to publish it in #669011, although the statement is
>  not approved.

I beg you pardon? It's been approved by me with that mail, after having
given time to comment on that to readers of this list.


"approved" in the sense of "sanctioned". A few people did say they 
thought the statement should be issued.



  Also, please note
how -project was Cc:-ed on my request already (see
https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2012/04/msg00073.html) so it's
not clear to me why you felt there was a need to give this "warning"
kind of mail.


Yes, the information was already given, the purpose of my mail was 
simply to change the subject, making it obvious to quick readers of 
debian-project that your mail wasn't simply a comment on a draft proposal.



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Re: xth wrap-up about statement on diversity, statement may be issued without general resolution (Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project)

[Steve Langasek]

On Fri, Apr 20, 2012 at 09:25:21AM +0200, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 09:47:04PM -0400, Filipus Klutiero wrote:
> > The message from Stefano Zacchiroli quoted below includes a wrap-up
> > (of the wrap-up (of the...)) about the statement on diversity in
> > contributors proposed by Francesca Ciceri.
> > Stefano asked to publish it in #669011, although the statement is
> > not approved.

> I beg you pardon? It's been approved by me with that mail, after having
> given time to comment on that to readers of this list. Also, please note
> how -project was Cc:-ed on my request already (see
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2012/04/msg00073.html) so it's
> not clear to me why you felt there was a need to give this "warning"
> kind of mail.

Perhaps because under the constitution, position statements are a power that
the developers exercise under GR, not a power that the DPL has?

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Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
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Re: xth wrap-up about statement on diversity, statement may be issued without general resolution (Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project)

[Stefano Zacchiroli]

On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 09:47:04PM -0400, Filipus Klutiero wrote:
> The message from Stefano Zacchiroli quoted below includes a wrap-up
> (of the wrap-up (of the...)) about the statement on diversity in
> contributors proposed by Francesca Ciceri.
> Stefano asked to publish it in #669011, although the statement is
> not approved.

I beg you pardon? It's been approved by me with that mail, after having
given time to comment on that to readers of this list. Also, please note
how -project was Cc:-ed on my request already (see
https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2012/04/msg00073.html) so it's
not clear to me why you felt there was a need to give this "warning"
kind of mail.

Cheers.
-- 
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xth wrap-up about statement on diversity, statement may be issued without general resolution (Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project)

[Filipus Klutiero]

The message from Stefano Zacchiroli quoted below includes a wrap-up (of 
the wrap-up (of the...)) about the statement on diversity in 
contributors proposed by Francesca Ciceri.
Stefano asked to publish it in #669011, although the statement is not 
approved.


Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:

On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 02:28:58PM +0100, Francesca Ciceri wrote:
>  So, I wrote a draft - mainly based on the one [4] created for Ubuntu
>  by Matt Zimmerman with the help of Mary Gardiner, Valerie Aurora
>  and Benjamin Mako Hill - and I'd like to propose it to the DPL to be
>  official published.
>  But I'd also like to have some inputs from you all, on it.

Dear all,
   here is a wrap-up (of the wrap-up (of the...)) that Francesca has just
shared with me based on the last feedback on list.


The Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone.

It doesn't matter how you identify yourself or how others perceive you:
we welcome you. We welcome contributions from everyone as long as they
interact constructively with our community.

While much of the work for our project is technical in nature, we value
and encourage contributions from those with expertise in other areas,
and welcome them into our community.


It seems to me that there is consensus in going ahead with such a
statement, modulo some minor disagreements on the form that can still be
fixed once published following the usual (bug reporting) procedure. I
hereby declare that, as DPL, I'm happy with it and I'm ready to ask the
WWW and Press teams to publish and advertise it as a project-wide
statement.

I'll see to it in a week from now, asking for confirmation from the
future DPL. As discussed in [1], if you feel strongly about the need of
a GR for publishing this (I don't), please start one and look for
seconds as usual. Otherwise, I propose that the statement is published
under simple DPL auspices.



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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[David Prévot]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

Hi,

Le 12/04/2012 12:34, David Prévot a écrit :

> If the issue is only for non native readers, an other way to address the
> concern is to help proofreading translations in every language we
> understand, in order to make sure the statement will be available for
> non English readers, with a quality that matches the one granted by this
> active thread.

I hereby invite French readers to proofread the proposed French
translation of this diversity statement. The last version is available
in the publicity repository:

http://anonscm.debian.org/viewvc/publicity/announcements/fr/drafts/diversity.wml?view=markup

Please, follow up the discussion on debian-l10n-french@l.d.o, in French
is preferred. Thanks in advance.

(Other translations should be available in the next hours/days.)

- %<---%<---

  Diversité et équité
  ===

  Le projet Debian invite et encourage tout le monde à participer.

  Qu'importe la façon dont vous vous identifiez, ou dont
les autres vous perçoivent : nous vous accueillons.
  Nous accueillons les contributions de tout le monde, tant
que les interactions avec la communauté sont constructives.

  Même si l'essentiel du projet est technique par nature, nous
apprécions et encourageons de la même façon les contributions
de la part des personnes dont le domaine de compétences est
différent, et les accueillons au sein de notre communauté.

- >%--->%---

Regards

David

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Bug#669011: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Stefano Zacchiroli]

Package: www.debian.org

Dear WWW Team,
  as you're probably aware of, we've discussed on -project [1] the
proposal by Francesca Ciceri to publish a diversity statement for the
Debian Project. There seems to be consensus on the idea. A week ago [2]
I've anticipated that, as DPL, I'd have been happy to kindly ask you to
publish a statement along the following lines:


The Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone.

It doesn't matter how you identify yourself or how others perceive you:
we welcome you. We welcome contributions from everyone as long as they
interact constructively with our community.

While much of the work for our project is technical in nature, we value
and encourage contributions from those with expertise in other areas,
and welcome them into our community.


No one has further objected, so I hereby ask you to go ahead and publish
it on www.d.o. Further language improvements have been suggested
starting at [2], which I haven't reviewed. Feel free to apply them or
other language improvements as you see fit.

Many thanks in advance,
Cheers.

[1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2012/03/msg00048.html
[2] https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2012/04/msg00053.html

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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[David Prévot]

Hi,

Le 12/04/2012 12:22, Moray Allan a écrit :
> Phil wrote:
>> Le 12/04/2012 08:08, Gerfried Fuchs a écrit :

>>>  Maybe I'm too picky, and you can base it on me not being a native
>>> speaker - but then, most people that will read it might be non-native
>>> speakers.

>> If it is deemed that the clarification is needed, then […]

> If an extra word is really needed then perhaps it should be "we
> equally value and encourage"?

If the issue is only for non native readers, an other way to address the
concern is to help proofreading translations in every language we
understand, in order to make sure the statement will be available for
non English readers, with a quality that matches the one granted by this
active thread.

I'd like to thank Francesca for proposing this statement and taking care
of the various remarks, and everyone involved.

Regards

David




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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Moray Allan]

Phil wrote:
> If it is deemed that the clarification is needed, then adding 'too' is
> not the way to do it -- instead we could go for:
>
>  adding 'also' after 'we':
>
>    ... technical in nature, we also value and encourage contributions ...
>
>  or perhaps adding 'as well' where you were suggesting 'too':
>
>    ... with expertise in other areas as well, ...
>
> I think I prefer the first.

I agree with that preference (and with either being better than "too").

But any of these can be read more easily than the previous version as
demoting non-technical contributions back to something second-class,
if we only value them "in addition to" technical ones.

If an extra word is really needed then perhaps it should be "we
equally value and encourage"?

-- 
Moray


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Philip Hands]

On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 14:08:32 +0200, Gerfried Fuchs  wrote:
> * Stefano Zacchiroli  [2012-04-09 14:02:02 CEST]:
> > On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 02:28:58PM +0100, Francesca Ciceri wrote:
> > > So, I wrote a draft - mainly based on the one [4] created for Ubuntu
> > > by Matt Zimmerman with the help of Mary Gardiner, Valerie Aurora 
> > > and Benjamin Mako Hill - and I'd like to propose it to the DPL to be
> > > official published.
> > > But I'd also like to have some inputs from you all, on it.
> > 
> > Dear all,
> >   here is a wrap-up (of the wrap-up (of the...)) that Francesca has just
> > shared with me based on the last feedback on list.
> > 
> > 
> > The Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone.
> > 
> > It doesn't matter how you identify yourself or how others perceive you:
> > we welcome you. We welcome contributions from everyone as long as they
> > interact constructively with our community.
> > 
> > While much of the work for our project is technical in nature, we value
> > and encourage contributions from those with expertise in other areas,
> > and welcome them into our community.
> > 
> 
>  Shouldn't there be a "too" added after "in other areas", my first
> thought was "we don't value contributions in the technical area?" when
> reading this.

It strikes me as unnecessary, but as you say, maybe that's because I
think it's being implied (as a native speaker), and non-natives will
perceive it differently.

If it is deemed that the clarification is needed, then adding 'too' is
not the way to do it -- instead we could go for:

  adding 'also' after 'we':

... technical in nature, we also value and encourage contributions ...
  
  or perhaps adding 'as well' where you were suggesting 'too':

... with expertise in other areas as well, ...

I think I prefer the first.

Cheers, Phil.
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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Gerfried Fuchs]

* Stefano Zacchiroli  [2012-04-09 14:02:02 CEST]:
> On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 02:28:58PM +0100, Francesca Ciceri wrote:
> > So, I wrote a draft - mainly based on the one [4] created for Ubuntu
> > by Matt Zimmerman with the help of Mary Gardiner, Valerie Aurora 
> > and Benjamin Mako Hill - and I'd like to propose it to the DPL to be
> > official published.
> > But I'd also like to have some inputs from you all, on it.
> 
> Dear all,
>   here is a wrap-up (of the wrap-up (of the...)) that Francesca has just
> shared with me based on the last feedback on list.
> 
> 
> The Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone.
> 
> It doesn't matter how you identify yourself or how others perceive you:
> we welcome you. We welcome contributions from everyone as long as they
> interact constructively with our community.
> 
> While much of the work for our project is technical in nature, we value
> and encourage contributions from those with expertise in other areas,
> and welcome them into our community.
> 

 Shouldn't there be a "too" added after "in other areas", my first
thought was "we don't value contributions in the technical area?" when
reading this.

 Maybe I'm too picky, and you can base it on me not being a native
speaker - but then, most people that will read it might be non-native
speakers.

 Thanks for a very good aproach and great statement. :)
Rhonda
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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Ben Finney]

Stefano Zacchiroli  writes:

> 
> The Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone.
>
> It doesn't matter how you identify yourself or how others perceive you:
> we welcome you. We welcome contributions from everyone as long as they
> interact constructively with our community.
>
> While much of the work for our project is technical in nature, we value
> and encourage contributions from those with expertise in other areas,
> and welcome them into our community.
> 
>
> It seems to me that there is consensus in going ahead with such a
> statement, modulo some minor disagreements on the form that can still be
> fixed once published following the usual (bug reporting) procedure. I
> hereby declare that, as DPL, I'm happy with it and I'm ready to ask the
> WWW and Press teams to publish and advertise it as a project-wide
> statement.

Hooray! Nicely done, Francesca and everyone else involved in molding
this statement.

-- 
 \   “… whoever claims any right that he is unwilling to accord to |
  `\ his fellow-men is dishonest and infamous.” —Robert G. |
_o__)   Ingersoll, _The Liberty of Man, Woman and Child_, 1877 |
Ben Finney


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[gregor herrmann]

On Mon, 09 Apr 2012 14:02:02 +0200, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:

>   here is a wrap-up (of the wrap-up (of the...)) that Francesca has just
> shared with me based on the last feedback on list.
> 
> 
> The Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone.
> 
> It doesn't matter how you identify yourself or how others perceive you:
> we welcome you. We welcome contributions from everyone as long as they
> interact constructively with our community.
> 
> While much of the work for our project is technical in nature, we value
> and encourage contributions from those with expertise in other areas,
> and welcome them into our community.
> 

Looks good to me.
Thanks to Francesca and all others who've helped to further improve
the text!
 
> It seems to me that there is consensus in going ahead with such a
> statement, modulo some minor disagreements on the form that can still be
> fixed once published following the usual (bug reporting) procedure. I
> hereby declare that, as DPL, I'm happy with it and I'm ready to ask the
> WWW and Press teams to publish and advertise it as a project-wide
> statement.

Fine with me.
 

Cheers,
gregor
 
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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Stefano Zacchiroli]

On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 02:28:58PM +0100, Francesca Ciceri wrote:
> So, I wrote a draft - mainly based on the one [4] created for Ubuntu
> by Matt Zimmerman with the help of Mary Gardiner, Valerie Aurora 
> and Benjamin Mako Hill - and I'd like to propose it to the DPL to be
> official published.
> But I'd also like to have some inputs from you all, on it.

Dear all,
  here is a wrap-up (of the wrap-up (of the...)) that Francesca has just
shared with me based on the last feedback on list.


The Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone.

It doesn't matter how you identify yourself or how others perceive you:
we welcome you. We welcome contributions from everyone as long as they
interact constructively with our community.

While much of the work for our project is technical in nature, we value
and encourage contributions from those with expertise in other areas,
and welcome them into our community.


It seems to me that there is consensus in going ahead with such a
statement, modulo some minor disagreements on the form that can still be
fixed once published following the usual (bug reporting) procedure. I
hereby declare that, as DPL, I'm happy with it and I'm ready to ask the
WWW and Press teams to publish and advertise it as a project-wide
statement.

I'll see to it in a week from now, asking for confirmation from the
future DPL. As discussed in [1], if you feel strongly about the need of
a GR for publishing this (I don't), please start one and look for
seconds as usual. Otherwise, I propose that the statement is published
under simple DPL auspices.

Cheers.

[1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2012/04/msg00011.html
-- 
Stefano Zacchiroli zack@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} . o .
Maître de conférences   ..   http://upsilon.cc/zack   ..   . . o
Debian Project Leader...   @zack on identi.ca   ...o o o
« the first rule of tautology club is the first rule of tautology club »


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Holger Levsen]

On Samstag, 7. April 2012, Enrico Zini wrote:
> Moar nitpicking: s/define/perceive/g

I perceive this as very useful nit-picking.


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Luca Filipozzi]

On Sat, Apr 07, 2012 at 06:57:47PM +0200, "Steffen M?ller" wrote:
> I am starting to enjoy this.
>
> On Sat, Apr 07, 2012 at 11:03:07PM +, Luca Filipozzi wrote:
> > On Sat, Apr 07, 2012 at 12:23:21PM +0200, Enrico Zini wrote:
> > > On Thu, Apr 05, 2012 at 10:32:21PM +0200, Francesca Ciceri wrote:
> > > 
> > > > It doesn't matter how you define yourself or how others define
> > > > you: we welcome you.  We welcome contributions from everyone 
> > > 
> > > Moar nitpicking: s/define/perceive/g
> > > 
> > > That gives: "It doesn't matter how you perceive yourself or how
> > > others perceive you: we welcome you.
> > > 
> > > This is after feedback from a respected friend on a private IRC
> > > channel, who pointed out that the concept of "definitions" has
> > > unwelcome connotations.
> > 
> > The first 'define' might want to be 'identify' and the second
> > 'perceive' for
> > 
> >   "It doesn't matter how you identify yourself or how others
> >   perceive you: we welcome you."
> > 
> > Or possibly:
> > 
> >   "It doesn't matter how you choose to identify or how others
> >   perceive you: we welcome you."
> 
> And what about a bit of a simplification: "It does not matter who you
> or who others think you are: we welcome you."

i wanted to put 'identify' into discussion but please don't interpret
this reply as my being insistent on the point... 'define yourself'
passed my initial filter!

if i had to choose:
- identify/perceive
- perceive/perceive
- think/think
- define/define

-- 
Luca Filipozzi


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Steffen Möller]

I am starting to enjoy this.
 Original-Nachricht 
> Datum: Sat, 7 Apr 2012 11:03:07 +
> Von: Luca Filipozzi 
> An: debian-project@lists.debian.org
> Betreff: Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

> On Sat, Apr 07, 2012 at 12:23:21PM +0200, Enrico Zini wrote:
> > On Thu, Apr 05, 2012 at 10:32:21PM +0200, Francesca Ciceri wrote:
> > 
> > > It doesn't matter how you define yourself or how others define you: 
> > > we welcome you.  We welcome contributions from everyone 
> > 
> > Moar nitpicking: s/define/perceive/g
> > 
> > That gives: "It doesn't matter how you perceive yourself or how others
> > perceive you: we welcome you.
> > 
> > This is after feedback from a respected friend on a private IRC channel,
> > who pointed out that the concept of "definitions" has unwelcome
> > connotations.
> 
> The first 'define' might want to be 'identify' and the second 'perceive'
> for
> 
>   "It doesn't matter how you identify yourself or how others perceive
>   you: we welcome you."
> 
> Or possibly:
> 
>   "It doesn't matter how you choose to identify or how others perceive
>   you: we welcome you."

And what about a bit of a simplification: "It does not matter who you or who 
others think you are: we welcome you."

Best,

Steffen



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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Luca Filipozzi]

On Sat, Apr 07, 2012 at 12:23:21PM +0200, Enrico Zini wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 05, 2012 at 10:32:21PM +0200, Francesca Ciceri wrote:
> 
> > It doesn't matter how you define yourself or how others define you: 
> > we welcome you.  We welcome contributions from everyone 
> 
> Moar nitpicking: s/define/perceive/g
> 
> That gives: "It doesn't matter how you perceive yourself or how others
> perceive you: we welcome you.
> 
> This is after feedback from a respected friend on a private IRC channel,
> who pointed out that the concept of "definitions" has unwelcome
> connotations.

The first 'define' might want to be 'identify' and the second 'perceive'
for

  "It doesn't matter how you identify yourself or how others perceive
  you: we welcome you."

Or possibly:

  "It doesn't matter how you choose to identify or how others perceive
  you: we welcome you."

Cheers,

Luca

-- 
Luca Filipozzi


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Enrico Zini]

On Thu, Apr 05, 2012 at 10:32:21PM +0200, Francesca Ciceri wrote:

> It doesn't matter how you define yourself or how others define you: 
> we welcome you.  We welcome contributions from everyone 

Moar nitpicking: s/define/perceive/g

That gives: "It doesn't matter how you perceive yourself or how others
perceive you: we welcome you.

This is after feedback from a respected friend on a private IRC channel,
who pointed out that the concept of "definitions" has unwelcome
connotations.


Ciao,

Enrico trying to prove that the draft is perfect by constantly trying to
suggest improvements: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfection#Paradoxes

-- 
GPG key: 4096R/E7AD5568 2009-05-08 Enrico Zini 


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Ben Finney]

Francesca Ciceri  writes:

> On Fri, Apr 06, 2012 at 09:11:11AM +1000, Ben Finney wrote:
> > Why the change from “contributions to the Project”? Debian is an
> > operating system, but I think our diversity statement should welcome
> > contributions to the Debian Project.
>
> Sure. It was to avoid the repetition of "project": but maybe we can
> simply s/contributions to Debian/contributions/ (as suggested by
> Enrico)? 

Yes, that works.

-- 
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  `\Tomlin |
_o__)  |
Ben Finney


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Philip Hands]

On Fri, 6 Apr 2012 00:03:50 +0200, Enrico Zini  wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 05, 2012 at 10:32:21PM +0200, Francesca Ciceri wrote:
> 
> > The Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone.
> > 
> > It doesn't matter how you define yourself or how others define you: 
> > we welcome you.  We welcome contributions from everyone 
> > as long as they interact constructively with our
> > community. 
> > 
> > While much of the work for our project is technical in nature,
> > we value and encourage contributions to Debian from those with
> > expertise in other areas and welcome such contributors in our community.
> 
> I love how this is increasing in awesomeness as it is decreasing in
> size.

Definitely.

> 
> I feel like suggesting two minor patches, labor limae if anything:
> 
>  s/contributions to Debian/contributions/
>  s/expertise in other areas/expertise in other areas,/
>  s/welcome such contributors in our community/welcome them in our community/
> 
> which would give:
> 
> > While much of the work for our project is technical in nature,
> > we value and encourage contributions from those with
> > expertise in other areas, and welcome them in our community.

Tiny nitpick:

  welcome ... in

seems wrong to my native ear, but I'm not sure why.  I would go for:

  welcome ... to

Also, is the "them" supposed to be the contributions or the people
making them?  Probably both, but I think that unanswered question may be
why I'm not able to come up with a better version of this, as well as
the reason it doesn't seem quite right to me at present.

If the answer to that is meant to be the people, then that could be made
plain with:

  welcome ... into

Cheers, Phil.
--
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|-|  HANDS.COM Ltd.http://www.uk.debian.org/
|(|  10 Onslow Gardens, South Woodford, London  E18 1NE  ENGLAND


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Francesca Ciceri]

On Fri, Apr 06, 2012 at 09:11:11AM +1000, Ben Finney wrote:
> Francesca Ciceri  writes:
> 
> > -8<8<-
> >
> > The Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone.
> >
> > It doesn't matter how you define yourself or how others define you: we
> > welcome you. We welcome contributions from everyone as long as they
> > interact constructively with our community.
> >
> > While much of the work for our project is technical in nature, we
> > value and encourage contributions to Debian from those with expertise
> > in other areas and welcome such contributors in our community.
> >
> > >8--->8
> 
> Why the change from “contributions to the Project”? Debian is an
> operating system, but I think our diversity statement should welcome
> contributions to the Debian Project.

Sure. It was to avoid the repetition of "project": but maybe we can
simply s/contributions to Debian/contributions/ (as suggested by Enrico)? 

> 
> 
> It's looking very good now.

:) Thank you!

Cheers,
Francesca

-- 
"Nostra patria è il mondo intero
e nostra legge è la libertà
ed un pensiero
ribelle in cor ci sta." P.Gori


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Holger Levsen]

Hi,

On Freitag, 6. April 2012, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
> > I love how this is increasing in awesomeness as it is decreasing in
> > size.
> Indeed.

+1
 
> Yes, it looks better with those small fixes.

+1

> Thank you Francesca!

+1


cheers,
h03ger ;)


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Raphael Hertzog]

On Fri, 06 Apr 2012, Enrico Zini wrote:
> I love how this is increasing in awesomeness as it is decreasing in
> size.

Indeed.

> I feel like suggesting two minor patches, labor limae if anything:
> 
>  s/contributions to Debian/contributions/
>  s/expertise in other areas/expertise in other areas,/
>  s/welcome such contributors in our community/welcome them in our community/
> 
> which would give:
> 
> > While much of the work for our project is technical in nature,
> > we value and encourage contributions from those with
> > expertise in other areas, and welcome them in our community.

Yes, it looks better with those small fixes.

Thank you Francesca!

Cheers,
-- 
Raphaël Hertzog ◈ Debian Developer

Pre-order a copy of the Debian Administrator's Handbook and help
liberate it: http://debian-handbook.info/liberation/


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Ben Finney]

Francesca Ciceri  writes:

> -8<8<-
>
> The Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone.
>
> It doesn't matter how you define yourself or how others define you: we
> welcome you. We welcome contributions from everyone as long as they
> interact constructively with our community.
>
> While much of the work for our project is technical in nature, we
> value and encourage contributions to Debian from those with expertise
> in other areas and welcome such contributors in our community.
>
> >8--->8

Why the change from “contributions to the Project”? Debian is an
operating system, but I think our diversity statement should welcome
contributions to the Debian Project.


It's looking very good now.

-- 
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  `\  picture of the entire Earth. On the back he wrote, ‘Wish you |
_o__)  were here’.” —Steven Wright |
Ben Finney


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Enrico Zini]

On Thu, Apr 05, 2012 at 10:32:21PM +0200, Francesca Ciceri wrote:

> The Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone.
> 
> It doesn't matter how you define yourself or how others define you: 
> we welcome you.  We welcome contributions from everyone 
> as long as they interact constructively with our
> community. 
> 
> While much of the work for our project is technical in nature,
> we value and encourage contributions to Debian from those with
> expertise in other areas and welcome such contributors in our community.

I love how this is increasing in awesomeness as it is decreasing in
size.

I feel like suggesting two minor patches, labor limae if anything:

 s/contributions to Debian/contributions/
 s/expertise in other areas/expertise in other areas,/
 s/welcome such contributors in our community/welcome them in our community/

which would give:

> While much of the work for our project is technical in nature,
> we value and encourage contributions from those with
> expertise in other areas, and welcome them in our community.


Ciao,

Enrico

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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Francesca Ciceri]

Yay! 
Super-very-final draft below :)

I applied patches proposed by Stefano, Steffen, Luca and Ben (thanks!).


Cheers,
Francesca

-8<8<-

The Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone.

It doesn't matter how you define yourself or how others define you: 
we welcome you.  We welcome contributions from everyone 
as long as they interact constructively with our
community. 

While much of the work for our project is technical in nature,
we value and encourage contributions to Debian from those with
expertise in other areas and welcome such contributors in our community.

>8--->8

-- 
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e nostra legge è la libertà
ed un pensiero
ribelle in cor ci sta." P.Gori


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Charles Plessy]

Le Tue, Apr 03, 2012 at 02:11:44PM +0200, Francesca Ciceri a écrit :
> 
> --- 8< --- 8< 
> 
> 
> The Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone.
> It doesn't matter how you define yourself or how others define you: we
> welcome you.  We welcome contributions from everyone within their areas
> of expertise, as long as they can be constructive members of our
> community. While much of the work of the Project is technical in nature,
> we will value and encourage contributions to the Project from those with
> expertise in non-technical areas and welcome such contributors as part
> of our community.
> 
> 
> - >8 --- >8 ---

Dear Francesca,

many thanks for your patience.  I like this new shape a lot. 

Have a nice day,

-- 
Charles Plessy
Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Ben Finney]

Thank you for persisting with this job, Francesca.

Francesca Ciceri  writes:

> The Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone.
> It doesn't matter how you define yourself or how others define you: we
> welcome you. We welcome contributions from everyone within their areas
> of expertise, as long as they can be constructive members of our
> community. While much of the work of the Project is technical in
> nature, we will value and encourage contributions to the Project from
> those with expertise in non-technical areas and welcome such
> contributors as part of our community.

Very good. Minor suggestions:

s/as long as they can be constructive members/as long as they are constructive 
members/

s/we will value/we also value/

s/with expertise in non-technical areas/with expertise in any area/

Maybe break it into two paragraphs, before “While much …”.


It's much tighter and clearer now. I'm looking forward to the resulting
statement.

-- 
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  `\must also be well-mannered.” —Voltaire |
_o__)  |
Ben Finney


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Steffen Möller]

 Original-Nachricht 
> Datum: Tue, 3 Apr 2012 17:23:57 +
> Von: Luca Filipozzi 
> An: debian-project@lists.debian.org
> Betreff: Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

> On Tue, Apr 03, 2012 at 07:05:57PM +0200, "Steffen M?ller" wrote:
> > > Francesca Ciceri  writes:
> > > 
> > > > --
> > > > The Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by
> > > > everyone.  It doesn't matter how you define yourself or how others
> > > > define you: we welcome you.  We welcome contributions from
> > > > everyone within their areas of expertise, as long as they can be
> > > > constructive members of our community. While much of the work of
> > > > the Project is technical in nature, we will value and encourage
> > > > contributions to the Project from those with expertise in
> > > > non-technical areas and welcome such contributors as part of our
> > > > community.
> > > > --
> > > 
> > > Works for me, with or without the differences mentioned in other
> > > replies.
> > 
> > Yip, even though I would be tempted to leave out "within their areas
> > of expertise". Something is constructive or not. Even a question to
> > someone writing a documentation can be constructive.
> 
> so that would be something like "constructive contributions to the
> Project in non-technical areas"

> micro suggestion: s/will value/values/
> 
> the rest of the statment is in present tense; let's not use future tense
> for how much we will value and encourage participation; "will" is to
> much like "try"; do or do not :)

Here a summary of what I read so far and some extra changes I liked. The first 
two sentences of Francesca are my favorite and the most important, I think. I 
am not sure how much of the rest is needed, anyway:

The Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by
everyone.  It doesn't matter how you define yourself or how others
define you: we welcome you.  We welcome contributions from
everyone
s/within their areas of expertise,//
as long as they
s/can/interact/
constructive
s/ members of/ly with/
our community. While much of the work
s/of the Project/for our project/
is technical in nature, we
s/will // (Luca)
value and encourage contributions to
s/the Project/Debian/
from those with expertise in
s/non-technical/other/ (Stefano)
areas and welcome such contributors
s/as part of/in/
our community.


Cheers,

Steffen


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Luca Filipozzi]

On Tue, Apr 03, 2012 at 07:05:57PM +0200, "Steffen M?ller" wrote:
> > Francesca Ciceri  writes:
> > 
> > > --
> > > The Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by
> > > everyone.  It doesn't matter how you define yourself or how others
> > > define you: we welcome you.  We welcome contributions from
> > > everyone within their areas of expertise, as long as they can be
> > > constructive members of our community. While much of the work of
> > > the Project is technical in nature, we will value and encourage
> > > contributions to the Project from those with expertise in
> > > non-technical areas and welcome such contributors as part of our
> > > community.
> > > --
> > 
> > Works for me, with or without the differences mentioned in other
> > replies.
> 
> Yip, even though I would be tempted to leave out "within their areas
> of expertise". Something is constructive or not. Even a question to
> someone writing a documentation can be constructive.

so that would be something like "constructive contributions to the
Project in non-technical areas"

micro suggestion: s/will value/values/

the rest of the statment is in present tense; let's not use future tense
for how much we will value and encourage participation; "will" is to
much like "try"; do or do not :)

(thanks francesca)

-- 
Luca Filipozzi


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Steffen Möller]

 Original-Nachricht 
> Datum: Tue, 03 Apr 2012 09:39:22 -0700
> Von: Russ Allbery 
> An: debian-project@lists.debian.org
> Betreff: Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

> Francesca Ciceri  writes:
> 
> > --- 8< --- 8< 
> > The Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone.
> > It doesn't matter how you define yourself or how others define you: we
> > welcome you.  We welcome contributions from everyone within their areas
> > of expertise, as long as they can be constructive members of our
> > community. While much of the work of the Project is technical in nature,
> > we will value and encourage contributions to the Project from those with
> > expertise in non-technical areas and welcome such contributors as part
> > of our community.
> > - >8 --- >8 ---
> 
> Works for me, with or without the differences mentioned in other replies.

Yip, even though I would be tempted to leave out "within their areas of 
expertise". Something is constructive or not. Even a question to someone 
writing a documentation can be constructive.
 
> Thank you again, Francesca, for your work on this.

Indeed. This is a tantalizing improvement over the typical formulation of being 
an equal opportunity organisation.

Steffen


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Russ Allbery]

Francesca Ciceri  writes:

> --- 8< --- 8< 
> The Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone.
> It doesn't matter how you define yourself or how others define you: we
> welcome you.  We welcome contributions from everyone within their areas
> of expertise, as long as they can be constructive members of our
> community. While much of the work of the Project is technical in nature,
> we will value and encourage contributions to the Project from those with
> expertise in non-technical areas and welcome such contributors as part
> of our community.
> - >8 --- >8 ---

Works for me, with or without the differences mentioned in other replies.

Thank you again, Francesca, for your work on this.

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Stefano Zacchiroli]

On Tue, Apr 03, 2012 at 02:30:33PM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> While much of the work of the Project is technical in nature, we will 
> value and encourage contributions to the Project also from those with 
> expertise in non-technical areas and welcome such contributors as part 
> of our community.

micro suggestions:

- s/also//
- s/non-technical/other/

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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Jonas Smedegaard]

On 12-04-03 at 02:11pm, Francesca Ciceri wrote:
> The Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone.
> It doesn't matter how you define yourself or how others define you: we
> welcome you.  We welcome contributions from everyone within their areas
> of expertise, as long as they can be constructive members of our
> community. While much of the work of the Project is technical in nature,
> we will value and encourage contributions to the Project from those with
> expertise in non-technical areas and welcome such contributors as part
> of our community.

One suggestion: Squeeze in an "also" to clarify that non-technical 
contributions are not the only ones valued:

While much of the work of the Project is technical in nature, we will 
value and encourage contributions to the Project also from those with 
expertise in non-technical areas and welcome such contributors as part 
of our community.


Regards,

 - Jonas

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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Francesca Ciceri]

Hi Stefano,

On Mon, Apr 02, 2012 at 10:17:52PM +0200, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> 
> Lurking this thread, I've the impression we could find consensus on
> such a statement, as long as we keep it simple. The long list of
> "features" we do not discriminate upon, in particular, seems to be
> contentious.  TBH, I don't find it particularly inspiring either,
> while the rest of the text is. I also notice that other existing
> diversity statements in FOSS have avoided the long list, still
> managing to be inspiring and straight to the point. Maybe we could try
> without such a list?

Yeah, definitely. Let's try this way!  Below another draft, this time
without the list :)

Thanks again all for your contributions on this thread.


Cheers, 
Francesca


--- 8< --- 8< 


The Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone.
It doesn't matter how you define yourself or how others define you: we
welcome you.  We welcome contributions from everyone within their areas
of expertise, as long as they can be constructive members of our
community. While much of the work of the Project is technical in nature,
we will value and encourage contributions to the Project from those with
expertise in non-technical areas and welcome such contributors as part
of our community.


- >8 --- >8 ---
-- 
"Nostra patria è il mondo intero
e nostra legge è la libertà
ed un pensiero
ribelle in cor ci sta." P.Gori


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Ben Finney]

Stefano Zacchiroli  writes:

> The long list of "features" we do not discriminate upon, in
> particular, seems to be contentious. TBH, I don't find it particularly
> inspiring either, while the rest of the text is.

Part of the cause of that problem, it seems to me, is that today's
common understanding of “discriminate” conflates it with “discriminate
on a prejudicial basis”.

By making that conflation, we lose the concept of discrimination
*without* prejudice https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/discrimination>,
which is the act of perceiving and noting differences which may matter
to a decision.

This is an essential aspect of making fair decisions: about people,
about their past actions, about their present convictions informing
their future actions.

A diversity statement that rules out this kind of fair discrimination
would be harmful to a project, by needlessly hobbling the ability to
make necessary decisions fairly.

So, while I don't know to what extent that issue is a conscious part of
the decisions leading to such diversity statements, it can partly
explain why they commonly include an extensive list of descriptors the
drafters think are prejudicial as a basis for discrimination.


> I also notice that other existing diversity statements in FOSS have
> avoided the long list, still managing to be inspiring and straight to
> the point. Maybe we could try without such a list?

There are some free-software projects with a diversity statement
including such a list, but being clear and to the point about what that
list means.

The diversity statement of the Python Software Foundation
http://www.python.org/community/diversity/> has this relevant text:

Although we have phrased the formal diversity statement generically
to make it all-inclusive, we recognize that there are specific
attributes that are used to discriminate against people. In
alphabetical order, some of these attributes include (but are not
limited to): age, culture, ethnicity, gender identity or expression,
national origin, physical or mental difference, politics, race,
religion, sex, sexual orientation, socio-economic status, and
subculture. We welcome people regardless of the values of these or
other attributes.

That avoids the problem I objected to earlier: it makes clear that these
are intended to describe attributes of people, specifically as
attributes commonly used to (prejudicially) discriminate.

That leaves open – correctly, in my view – the entirely fair
discrimination on the basis of people's actions, and on the basis of the
content of people's expressed opinions (religious convictions, political
positions, etc.) when relevant to some decision.

It also makes clear that the list is not intended to be exhaustive.

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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Stefano Zacchiroli]

On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 02:28:58PM +0100, Francesca Ciceri wrote:
> a recent discussion [1] on Debian Women mailing list made me realize that
> the Debian Project, the *Universal* Operating System, doesn't have a
> diversity statement [2].
> 
> Yet. :)

Heya, sorry for the delay, but I've followed with interest this
discussion. Many thanks to Francesca and the other Debian Women ML
participants for this proposal.

I'm very much in favor of having a diversity statement for the Debian
Project.

I concur with most of the very good reasons which have been mentioned in
this thread for having one, so I'll try hard not to inflict you
additional ones (OK, just a few :-P).  Also, I see no disadvantages in
having one: it is no additional regulation, procedure, of anything
such. It's just a, err, statement that --- within the realm of the
general Debian goals --- we welcome diversity. I don't even think we
need to bring the "universal OS" motto in the loop to justify diversity:
it just happens that the more diverse a community is, the more rich it
gets. A statement in that direction is a way to cherish and encourage
that richness.

Lurking this thread, I've the impression we could find consensus on such
a statement, as long as we keep it simple. The long list of "features"
we do not discriminate upon, in particular, seems to be contentious.
TBH, I don't find it particularly inspiring either, while the rest of
the text is. I also notice that other existing diversity statements in
FOSS have avoided the long list, still managing to be inspiring and
straight to the point. Maybe we could try without such a list?


Just another comment on the way to decide upon the statement: GR or
not. For those who care about formalities: I think the DPL is entitled
to emit such a statement under Constitution §5.1.4 ("Make any decision
for whom noone else has responsibility"). If I'll happen to be DPL when
this discussion ends, and if there will appear to be consensus on the
idea of having a diversity statement, I'll be happy to pick the least
contentious draft and help to finalize it.

More generally, I think there are a few arguments against using a GR to
publish such a statement:

- communication might have been a good reasons for GR a while ago; these
  days we're quite active and good at communicating Debian Project news
  to the world. We really don't need a GR just for that, I believe a
  press release would be as authoritative, at least for the outer world

- it opens all sort of bureaucratic-fetish questions like "what if we
  want to change the statement?", and I don't think we want to micro
  manage that and similar possibilities in the GR text

- if we roughly agree on going ahead with the statement on this list:
  why bother? We've better things to do with our collective time than
  voting, at least when it is avoidable

All in all, I think deciding on how to publish this is pretty easy.
Let's first take into account the remaining criticism and update the
text; which has to be done anyhow if we want to publish. The then-DPL
could then state when he/she is ready to publish, giving some time to
react. Those who strongly prefer a GR can then simply go ahead and
propose one, looking for seconds as usual. If the GR process starts, the
DPL will surely wait for its outcome; otherwise the statement can be
published under DPL auspices.


Hope this helps,
Cheers.
-- 
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Maître de conférences   ..   http://upsilon.cc/zack   ..   . . o
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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Philip Hands]

On Mon, 2 Apr 2012 13:09:40 +0900, Charles Plessy  wrote:
...
> I think that this is important that, when considering joining Debian,
> contributors can be reassured that they will not be put a sticker on their 
> head
> by others.  This dicussion tends to the contrary.

My point exactly.

If we had fields for "race", or "caste", or "social class" in our LDAP
it would say something very worrying about our project IMO.

If people want to think of themselves in such terms, I suppose that's
fair enough, as long as they don't impose their categorisations on
others.

Declaring such categorisations about oneself can be problematic though,
since they tend to be divisive.  If I were to say that I consider myself
a particular class (being from the UK, there is a certain cultural
attachment to the concept of class) then I would be implicitly also
declaring my opinion that class has a useful objective existence, and
that I thought it was important enough to mention, and that I probably
use it to enable me to look down on people that I define as being from
other classes.

If I discovered a society, or association that declared that they didn't
discriminate on grounds of social class, I'd assume that it was founded
by somewhat enlightened aristocrats who were willing to admit their
servants to the association ... as long as they behaved themselves, and
kept their boots properly polished, and were not too uppity.  Which
probably tells you more about my class prejudices than anything else ;-)

Cheers, Phil.
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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Charles Plessy]

Le Sun, Apr 01, 2012 at 11:11:37PM -0400, Kevin Mark a écrit :
> 
> If you look at the statistical makeup of the humans that contribute and 
> examine
> the components of identity that they consider themselves, you'll find lots of
> people who would be male, hetronormative, american/european, caucasian humans.
> If you think that this group is who you wish to be in the majority, then 
> there is
> no issue and no action is required. 

Hi Kevin and everybody,

I would like to underline again that it is a fundamental flaw to express wishes
for diversity in a way that itself is culturally biased.

I do not recognise myself as "caucasian".  Genetics and paleontology make very
clear that million of years ago, all of our common ancestors were apes in
Africa.  In science and medecine, the use of "caucasian" is vastly deprecated.
See for instance "Ethnic Groups and Geographic Origins" in the following URL.

  http://www.nlm.nih.gov/pubs/techbull/nd03/nd03_med_data_changes.html

When people tell me things like "you caucasians", I feel offended, even if I
know that they are actually trying to be kind to avoid more culturally or
emotionally charged words.  Please use "causasian" at the first person as you
whish, since the whole point of this discussion is to tell everybody that they
are welcome in Debian regardless of the group they feel they belong, but please
do not categorize others; it is finger-pointing.

I think that this is important that, when considering joining Debian,
contributors can be reassured that they will not be put a sticker on their head
by others.  This dicussion tends to the contrary.

Cheers,

-- 
Charles Plessy
Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Kevin Mark]

On Sun, Apr 01, 2012 at 09:17:03PM +0200, "Steffen Möller" wrote:
> Hello,
> 
>  Original-Nachricht 
> > Datum: Sun, 1 Apr 2012 13:43:46 -0400
> > Von: Kevin Mark 
> > An: Philip Hands 
> > CC: Kevin Mark , debian-project@lists.debian.org
> > Betreff: Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project
> 
> > On Sun, Apr 01, 2012 at 11:59:01AM +0100, Philip Hands wrote:
> > > On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 19:07:33 -0400, Kevin Mark 
> > wrote:
> > > > If we say we accept people of all races or that we dont discriminate
> > > > based on race, then we are not the ones who are going to discriminate,
> > > > and this is a good thing and is welcoming.
> > > 
> > > Well, except for the fact that by saying that one is reinforcing the
> > > notion that race means something useful, which it really doesn't.
> > 
> > In an ideal world, none of this would matter. Alas, we do not live in that
> > place.
> 
> Not in RL, but from the Debian packaging perspective, I think we are at least
> very very close to such idealism and the only race conditions we have are
> very technical and are reported as bugs already. 

race conditions are more of an issue for upstart or systemd or similar.

> I am with Philip and suggest to postpone discussions about racial
> discrimination 

The discussion at hand is not about determining who can contribute to debian
based upon aspects of identity. It is about creating an atmostphere where
people look at the signals and signs that debian transmits and they get an
impression that Debian will welcome them. 

What does this[0] do with respect to who codes on Android?  What does it signal
when at Debconf (and other conferences) they include t-shirts that fit women?
What does it say when a woman goes to a conference and they dont have such
t-shirts? It signals who they expect to join them and who should not.

> until we have an issue within Debian

If you look at the statistical makeup of the humans that contribute and examine
the components of identity that they consider themselves, you'll find lots of
people who would be male, hetronormative, american/european, caucasian humans.
If you think that this group is who you wish to be in the majority, then there 
is
no issue and no action is required. 

>  or with those redistributing our packages. If you refer to an unequal
>  distribution of our distribution in the world, to me the answer is about
>  helping our marketing, or help some team building somewhere as a seed/bridge
>  into a remote community.

The location of where digital bits are stored is of no concern for the purpose
of this statement. 

[0] http://www.googlestore.com/Wearables/Android+Pride+T-Shirt+-+Black.axd
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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Steffen Möller]

Hello,

 Original-Nachricht 
> Datum: Sun, 1 Apr 2012 13:43:46 -0400
> Von: Kevin Mark 
> An: Philip Hands 
> CC: Kevin Mark , debian-project@lists.debian.org
> Betreff: Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

> On Sun, Apr 01, 2012 at 11:59:01AM +0100, Philip Hands wrote:
> > On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 19:07:33 -0400, Kevin Mark 
> wrote:
> > > If we say we accept people of all races or that we dont discriminate
> > > based on race, then we are not the ones who are going to discriminate,
> > > and this is a good thing and is welcoming.
> > 
> > Well, except for the fact that by saying that one is reinforcing the
> > notion that race means something useful, which it really doesn't.
> 
> In an ideal world, none of this would matter. Alas, we do not live in that
> place.

Not in RL, but from the Debian packaging perspective, I think we are at least 
very very close to such idealism and the only race conditions we have are very 
technical and are reported as bugs already. I am with Philip and suggest to 
postpone discussions about racial discrimination until we have an issue within 
Debian or with those redistributing our packages. If you refer to an unequal 
distribution of our distribution in the world, to me the answer is about 
helping our marketing, or help some team building somewhere as a seed/bridge 
into a remote community.

Steffen


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Kevin Mark]

On Sun, Apr 01, 2012 at 11:59:01AM +0100, Philip Hands wrote:
> On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 19:07:33 -0400, Kevin Mark  wrote:
> > If we say we accept people of all races or that we dont discriminate
> > based on race, then we are not the ones who are going to discriminate,
> > and this is a good thing and is welcoming.
> 
> Well, except for the fact that by saying that one is reinforcing the
> notion that race means something useful, which it really doesn't.

In an ideal world, none of this would matter. Alas, we do not live in that
place. In a world with people of one skin color, it would not matter. Again,
that is not where we live. There are people who see skin color as something
other than another shade of the rainbow and see it as some indicator of their
place in some hierarchy. To ask someone what background they consider
themselves, most will include various things including race and nationality. To
these people who so identify, it matters, as any aspect of identity. It is
another matter how some other person labels them and is of no concern. If
someone takes pride in their identity and asks that others respect that choice,
I find it reasonable for this community to say that they wish to include such
people. I dont define 'racist' as one who identifies with a race, you'd be hard
pressed to find someone who does not, but if someone seeks to negatively
discriminate against a person based upon race, that would be how I would define
it. The people who did that to this person in that article I would so consider,
South Africa and the US have had periods where racism was 'De Facto' and 'De
Jeur'. Today the US still has this but in more subtle ways. I assume the same
is true of South Africa but I have less knowledge about it. So I dont consider
the choices people make with regard to their identity to 'not really matter'
and its something that is not 'left to bean counters'. 

Now the issue is how should this affect this community of people, should we do
nothing and continue to accept the people who have found their way here who
seem to fall into a narrow band of identify facets or is there some value in
seeking to attract more diversity? Most business do nothing to seek diversity
and as a result they seem to look much like Debian has looked before an
initiative by certain interested people. 

This statement is aspirational as the DFSG and as the mission of the FSF. To
aspire to things where we feel the world would be a better place if it was so.
If this community feels that we should do nothing different and that this is
the best for us, that there is no need to aspire to improve it. 

The makeup of the project is not an accident. Things seen and unseen, wording,
language, tone, real life and virtual interaction, modes of argumentation, and
many other things affect who joins and who leaves and who stays. 

This statement is just one aspect of a goal to attract people who indentify
from less common aspects. 

I recall Bubulle went on a trip to India to include Indian people into our
family because there was not many chances to join the required web of trust. It
took an effort that he was willing to make.  And he also was part of the group
of people who brought a diversity of cheese to our annual events. I long to
sample cheeses sweet, stinky, yellow and otherwise. I think such examples are
what we need more of. 

> 
> For instance, what race would Sandra Laing be, daughter of generations
> of white Afrikaners, with the misfortune to have been born with black
> skin under apartheid:
> 
>http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2003/mar/17/features11.g2
> 
> The concept of race only seems to be useful to racists, and perhaps
> bean-counters who want to demonstrate their organization's lack of
> racism by the racial diversity that they can get people to admit to on
> forms.
> 
> Cheers, Phil.
> -- 
> |)|  Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560]http://www.hands.com/
> |-|  HANDS.COM Ltd.http://www.uk.debian.org/
> |(|  10 Onslow Gardens, South Woodford, London  E18 1NE  ENGLAND



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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Philip Hands]

On Sat, 31 Mar 2012 19:07:33 -0400, Kevin Mark  wrote:
> If we say we accept people of all races or that we dont discriminate
> based on race, then we are not the ones who are going to discriminate,
> and this is a good thing and is welcoming.

Well, except for the fact that by saying that one is reinforcing the
notion that race means something useful, which it really doesn't.

For instance, what race would Sandra Laing be, daugher of gernerations
of white Afrikaners, with the misfortune to have been born with black
skin under apartheid:

   http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2003/mar/17/features11.g2

The concept of race only seems to be useful to racists, and perhaps
bean-counters who want to demonstrate their organisation's lack of
racism by the racial diversity that they can get people to admit to on
forms.

Cheers, Phil.
-- 
|)|  Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560]http://www.hands.com/
|-|  HANDS.COM Ltd.http://www.uk.debian.org/
|(|  10 Onslow Gardens, South Woodford, London  E18 1NE  ENGLAND


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Kevin Mark]

On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 05:53:48PM +0100, Mark Brown wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 04:40:58PM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> > On 12-03-27 at 03:45pm, Francesca Ciceri wrote:
> 
> > > Yes, I agree on accuracy. But please, note that "neurotype" - even if 
> > > it hasn't scientific recognition as concept - is the way some people 
> > > define themselves. And we must respect it.
> 
> > I favor what others have suggested: Completely avoid listing specific 
> > kinds of diversities to avoid misinterpretation that we _favor_ being 
> > non-diversive in certain ways.
> 
> > I don't mind listing some - but I fear the bikeshedding of which that 
> > should then be.  You have "neurotype" as a favorite.  I can imagine many 
> > having various favorites ;-)
> 
> I agree with Jonas here I'd also add that an enormous list of topics of
> discrimination doesn't make for inspiring prose either, making the whole
> thing seem like a bureaucratic exercise.

These are not "an enormous list of topics of discrimination'. Quite the
opposite. If you pick an old one like race, which has been and still is a
means that some people use as a basis for discrimination, the person of a
certain race is not the one discriminiating, its the people who are not
accepting of this aspect of diversity who are. If we say we accept people of
all races or that we dont discriminate based on race, then we are not the ones
who are going to discriminate, and this is a good thing and is welcoming.

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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Gervase Markham]

On 23/03/12 14:56, Ian Jackson wrote:
> What does "honouring diversity" actually mean ?

Precisely the same question, for what I suspect are pretty similar
reasons, has just come up in the context of a proposal that the Mozilla
project adopt the Ubuntu CoC.

http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.governance/msg/04839e4e065308ad

Gerv


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Philip Hands]

On Thu, 29 Mar 2012 06:41:15 +0100, Ben Hutchings  wrote:
> On Thu, 2012-03-29 at 14:10 +1100, Ben Finney wrote:
> > Francesca Ciceri  writes:
> > 
> > > On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 08:42:28AM +1100, Ben Finney wrote:
> > > > We should not commit to respecting opinions, but instead commit to
> > > > respecting all people.
> > >
> > > How do you suggest to express it in the statement? 
> > 
> > That depends on the context of the statement; I'm in favour of making it
> > rather minimal as some others in this thread have described.
> > 
> > For distinguishing the respect for opinion versus respect for the people
> > who hold them, perhaps this:
> > 
> > We value healthy discussion and debate of all opinions, no matter
> > who holds them. Ideas are always a valid target of criticism, and we
> > welcome anyone who wants to respectfully join the discussion.
> 
> I still think we need to specify that we don't discriminate on grounds
> of preferred bikeshed colour.

We seem to be drifting into dangerous territory here.  Should we not
make explicit the fact that we are willing to discuss the colour of all
sheds, even those used for the storage of pots?

Cheers, Phil.
-- 
|)|  Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560]http://www.hands.com/
|-|  HANDS.COM Ltd.http://www.uk.debian.org/
|(|  10 Onslow Gardens, South Woodford, London  E18 1NE  ENGLAND


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Ben Hutchings]

On Thu, 2012-03-29 at 14:10 +1100, Ben Finney wrote:
> Francesca Ciceri  writes:
> 
> > On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 08:42:28AM +1100, Ben Finney wrote:
> > > We should not commit to respecting opinions, but instead commit to
> > > respecting all people.
> >
> > How do you suggest to express it in the statement? 
> 
> That depends on the context of the statement; I'm in favour of making it
> rather minimal as some others in this thread have described.
> 
> For distinguishing the respect for opinion versus respect for the people
> who hold them, perhaps this:
> 
> We value healthy discussion and debate of all opinions, no matter
> who holds them. Ideas are always a valid target of criticism, and we
> welcome anyone who wants to respectfully join the discussion.

I still think we need to specify that we don't discriminate on grounds
of preferred bikeshed colour.

Ben.

-- 
Ben Hutchings
Horngren's Observation:
   Among economists, the real world is often a special case.


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Ben Finney]

Russ Allbery  writes:

> I have to admit that doesn't particularly fill me with joy [for
> various specific reasons]. […] I know what you mean, and I agree with
> it, but I think it also has some failure modes that we've suffered
> from in the past.

Yes, I accept those criticisms of my statements :-) and I agree better
wording is needed.

My main point in this thread has been to distinguish automatic respect
for people from automatic respect for the opinions they hold (yes to the
former, no to the latter).

I'm glad to see that point is relatively uncontroversial; I'll consider
this addressed so long as that is clear in whatever diversity statement
emerges.

-- 
 \“I got food poisoning today. I don't know when I'll use it.” |
  `\—Steven Wright |
_o__)  |
Ben Finney


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Russ Allbery]

Ben Finney  writes:

> For distinguishing the respect for opinion versus respect for the people
> who hold them, perhaps this:

> We value healthy discussion and debate of all opinions, no matter
> who holds them. Ideas are always a valid target of criticism, and we
> welcome anyone who wants to respectfully join the discussion.

I have to admit that doesn't particularly fill me with joy.  I think one
of the things that makes Debian off-putting and unwelcoming is that we're
a little *too* obsessed with criticizing everyone's ideas, and what some
people see as "healthy discussion" other people see as "hurtful flamewars
over bike shed colors."  I'd kind of like to avoid saying something that
could be interpreted as "yes, please, argue with us!"  I know what you
mean, and I agree with it, but I think it also has some failure modes that
we've suffered from in the past.

Hm.  I guess I'd tend to instead say something about disagreeing
respectfully and constructive debate rather than using the word
"criticism" (which I realize has a dictionary definition much along the
lines of constructive debate, when applied to, say, literary criticism,
but that's not the connotation most people will take from it).

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Ben Finney]

Francesca Ciceri  writes:

> On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 08:42:28AM +1100, Ben Finney wrote:
> > We should not commit to respecting opinions, but instead commit to
> > respecting all people.
>
> How do you suggest to express it in the statement? 

That depends on the context of the statement; I'm in favour of making it
rather minimal as some others in this thread have described.

For distinguishing the respect for opinion versus respect for the people
who hold them, perhaps this:

We value healthy discussion and debate of all opinions, no matter
who holds them. Ideas are always a valid target of criticism, and we
welcome anyone who wants to respectfully join the discussion.

-- 
 \   “To have the choice between proprietary software packages, is |
  `\  being able to choose your master. Freedom means not having a |
_o__)master.” —Richard M. Stallman, 2007-05-16 |
Ben Finney


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Russ Allbery]

Russ Allbery  writes:

> The first step in being diverse is being *aware*.  You cannot be aware
> when you're blind.

And, just to point out how hard this is, as well as to further illustrate
the general point that any post pointing out a spelling error contains at
least one spelling error, this is a horrible metaphor.  My desire to make
rhetorical plays off of the phrase "gender-blind" don't justify using
disability as a metaphor for bad things.  And given that I know blind
people who are most certainly aware, I should know better.

I apologize.

(And thank you to the private email that very gently pointed this out.)

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Mark Brown]

On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 04:40:58PM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> On 12-03-27 at 03:45pm, Francesca Ciceri wrote:

> > Yes, I agree on accuracy. But please, note that "neurotype" - even if 
> > it hasn't scientific recognition as concept - is the way some people 
> > define themselves. And we must respect it.

> I favor what others have suggested: Completely avoid listing specific 
> kinds of diversities to avoid misinterpretation that we _favor_ being 
> non-diversive in certain ways.

> I don't mind listing some - but I fear the bikeshedding of which that 
> should then be.  You have "neurotype" as a favorite.  I can imagine many 
> having various favorites ;-)

I agree with Jonas here I'd also add that an enormous list of topics of
discrimination doesn't make for inspiring prose either, making the whole
thing seem like a bureaucratic exercise.


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Raphael Hertzog]

On Tue, 27 Mar 2012, Jose Luis Rivas wrote:
> If is proposed to GR as it is written now, I will most probably vote
> against it too. I thought the diversity statement was to let everybody
> know they were welcome to work in the project, not that they have to
> think in certain way nor we will have yet another document telling us
> how to behave (I have enough of that with my country laws).

I fail to see where the diversity statement dictates your behaviour or
your thoughts.

It just says "we welcome everybody" pointing out some of the differences
that by themselves can't be ground to be excluded from this welcoming
attitude. Yet at the same time we reaffirm that people who join should be
committed to be constructive towards our common project of building the
best free OS.

Cheers,
-- 
Raphaël Hertzog ◈ Debian Developer

Pre-order a copy of the Debian Administrator's Handbook and help
liberate it: http://debian-handbook.info/liberation/


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Jose Luis Rivas]

On 03/27/2012 09:53 AM, Piotr Ożarowski wrote:
> [Scott Kitterman, 2012-03-27]
>> We can always be accepting of people of any opinion.  Trying to decide if 
>> someone is having 'correct' thoughts to be in Debian is wrong.  The focus 
>> should be on what people do (and communication is one aspect of doing).
> 
> +1
> 
> FWIW: I will vote against the statement in the GR most probably, not
> because I am against $foo, but because I think Debian Social Contract
> and ML Code of conduct is enough¹ and I hate over regulations.
> 
> [¹] if not, please propose patches over there

If is proposed to GR as it is written now, I will most probably vote
against it too. I thought the diversity statement was to let everybody
know they were welcome to work in the project, not that they have to
think in certain way nor we will have yet another document telling us
how to behave (I have enough of that with my country laws).

Regards.
-- 
Jose Luis Rivas - GPG: 0x7C4DF50D / 0xCACAB118
The Debian Project Developer -- http://ghostbar.ath.cx
Barquisimeto, Venezuela



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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Russ Allbery]

MJ Ray  writes:

> Anyway, it's disappointing that only this point attracted any attention
> and the more urgent points either side (who will enforce it?

You don't enforce a diversity statement.  That's not the point.  It's an
aspirational statement of ideals, not a policy.  If it were enforced, it
would be a Code of Conduct, which is a different thing.

If we pass a diversity statement that we then obviously fail to live up
to, it makes the whole project look bad, so there's a sort of moral
enforcement there, but it's not the sort of individual enforcement that
requires some enforcing body.

> what happens if the GR fails?)

Then we don't have a diversity statement.

While personally I would be disappointed, since I think diversity
statements serve a useful purpose, I don't think this would be
particularly catastrophic.  Most of the people who have expressed
reservations about the statement are doing so on the grounds that they
feel this is already covered by existing project statements and that
making an additional statement is tricky to do in a way that doesn't make
some group uncomfortable and is not necessary.  While I personally don't
agree with that, I think that's a reasonable position and there's nothing
inherently wrong with it.

If the concern is that failing to pass a diversity statement would somehow
send a message that we don't care about diversity, I think that's
something that can be easily addressed by wording the negative option to
say something akin to what I summarized above.

Also, one other general point: having followed these sorts of discussions
lightly elsewhere, it seems to be fairly common for folks who are in the
majority (or, probably better stated, identify primarily with majorities,
as there are a lot of axes and we're probably all in one minority or
another) to not really see the point of a diversity statement.  The
organization already feels plenty diverse to them and the statement
doesn't really mean anything to them.  Personally, I want to try to
evaluate things like this on the basis of how they would feel to people
who *aren't* in as many majorities, since I think that's a primary
(although not the only) target audience.

Or, put another way, as a native-English-speaking neurotypical white guy
who writes code, I know Debian welcomes *me*, and I don't need any
statement to confirm that.  But that's not really the point; if a
diversity statement would make other people, particularly people who are
underrepresented, feel more welcome, then it's worth doing regardless of
whether it makes *me* feel anything new, unless it actually objectively
hurts something.  (And I think it's hard to see how it would really hurt
anything, although definitely hashing out the wording is worthwhile.)

Put even more succinctly, warm welcomes are about people who aren't yet
part of our community, not about people who are already here.  :)  And
part (although not all) of the point of a diversity statement is to be a
warm welcome.

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Jonas Smedegaard]

On 12-03-27 at 03:45pm, Francesca Ciceri wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 09:15:30AM +0900, Charles Plessy wrote:
> > More of a detail, but for the neurotypes, I think that it is 
> > important to leave this out.  On debian-devel, we have to be 
> > accurate when we discuss about things (like init systems).  Why on 
> > debian-project wouldn't it be the same ?  I could not find a 
> > reference defintion of neurotype on the Internet.
> 
> Yes, I agree on accuracy. But please, note that "neurotype" - even if 
> it hasn't scientific recognition as concept - is the way some people 
> define themselves. And we must respect it.

I disagree with your logic here, Francesca: We do *not* need to list a 
certain kind of diversity just because someone identifies with it.

Some - like Charles above - suggest to only list scientific kinds of 
diversity.

I favor what others have suggested: Completely avoid listing specific 
kinds of diversities to avoid misinterpretation that we _favor_ being 
non-diversive in certain ways.

I don't mind listing some - but I fear the bikeshedding of which that 
should then be.  You have "neurotype" as a favorite.  I can imagine many 
having various favorites ;-)

Or do you mean to say that "neurotype" is a diversity kind which is 
somehow superior to others, so makes sense to include even if avoiding 
other kinds?


Regards,

 - Jonas

Who is excited about this process and now Francesca drives it!

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Piotr Ożarowski]

[Scott Kitterman, 2012-03-27]
> We can always be accepting of people of any opinion.  Trying to decide if 
> someone is having 'correct' thoughts to be in Debian is wrong.  The focus 
> should be on what people do (and communication is one aspect of doing).

+1

FWIW: I will vote against the statement in the GR most probably, not
because I am against $foo, but because I think Debian Social Contract
and ML Code of conduct is enough¹ and I hate over regulations.

[¹] if not, please propose patches over there
-- 
Piotr Ożarowski Debian GNU/Linux Developer
www.ozarowski.pl  www.griffith.cc   www.debian.org
GPG Fingerprint: 1D2F A898 58DA AF62 1786 2DF7 AEF6 F1A2 A745 7645


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Francesca Ciceri]

On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 09:15:30AM +0900, Charles Plessy wrote:
> Le Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 05:31:35PM +0200, Francesca Ciceri a écrit :
> > Even if bikeshedding is sometimes really annoying, this is the right way
> > to reach a consensus on a such important document and transform it from a
> > copy-pasted template to *our* diversity statement. :)
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I still do not understand why we need to have "our" diversity statement,
> attempt to re-write what has been well written by others. 


I'm sorry, I probably explained not-so-well my thought.
I have nothing against a general well-written template for the diversity
statement, and this is way I picked up the Ubuntu one instead of starting
writing one from scratch.
But I prefer to have a debate/discussion (as is now happening) on it so
we can decide if we really need it, if we *feel* that is important, if we
really share the diversity idea or not. 
This is the process of making it "ours".
Making it "ours" is not about changing some words here and there, but
about discussing and feeling it. Then it will be exactly the same as the
Ubuntu one, no problem on this. But the important part is that we
discuss/decide/share ideas on it. So it will not be just a piece of paper
(ehm, metaphorically speaking).

>  Dreamwidth's statement is inspiring; it is the kind of
> text that is nice to disover one morning, as it will may that day better.  But
> as many other proses, modifying it for the sake of it will not result in an
> improvement.  Why do not we write simply that we recognise ourselves in the
> spirit of Dreamwidth's statement ? 

Fine for me. 
Any other thought on it?

> In particular, one crucial difference with
> the current proposal is that Dreamwidth's text makes an extensive use of long
> list as a figure of style, while in our case it sill gives me a feeling of
> legalese.
>

:)
This is probably due to my not-so-good English. I mean, I'm quite able in
writing inspiring text and using figures of style in Italian, but not
in English.
I'd be glad to leave it to a native speaker, any volunteer?


> More of a detail, but for the neurotypes, I think that it is important to 
> leave
> this out.  On debian-devel, we have to be accurate when we discuss about 
> things
> (like init systems).  Why on debian-project wouldn't it be the same ?  I could
> not find a reference defintion of neurotype on the Internet.

Yes, I agree on accuracy. But please, note that "neurotype" - even if it
hasn't scientific recognition as concept - is the way some people define
themselves. And we must respect it.
Now, for a bit of story and definition of this concept, you can start
from here:
http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/The_Neurodiversity_Movement/Section_One#What_Is_A_Neurotype.3F
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurotypical
http://www.neuro-typical.com/

I'm really happy to have found the "neurotype" concept on the Dreamwidth
statement. Sometimes a bit of anthropological and methodological
relativism is a good exercise to keep your mind open.

> I think that teaching
> people that they have a different neurotype is as wrong and harmful as 
> teaching
> them that the reason of their problems was that their parents did not love 
> them.

Wait. We don't teach people. We welcome people. Without pre-assumptions.
There's an entire world of differences.

> I think that we give a wrong image, and false hopes, with a list that goes too
> far on the details.  Why not focusing on the categories for which we know that
> we actually do something, and document what we do.  That is also where we 
> stand
> out from other groups: do-ocraty.
> 
>  - We have debian-women and other expression media to work to reduce
>passive and active discrimination.
> 
>  - Our infrastructure tries to be as non-discriminative as possible,
>and for instance we do not require members to indicate their sex or gender
>in our LDAP database (although if I remember well, we can if we want).
> 
>  - Any other ?  Do we enforce for instance that sponsored events that include 
> organised
>meals must give opportunity for vegetarians to have proper menus if they 
> ask for ?
>
> And as part of a painful exercise, why not writing black on white where we
> think that we can not act.
> 
>  - While we welcome people with any nationality, we probably can not give
>access to some of our servers located in country A, to people living
>or nationals of country B, where A embargoes B.
> 
>  - We require our members to identify themselves with official papers 
> delivered
>from their state, so if their state is hostile to their minority (like
>refusing to change the name for transgender or transsexuals), we can not 
> help.


I like both ideas, but I fear that this could turn into a Code of
Conduct, which is not what we're trying to do here. 


Cheers,
Francesca

-- 
"Nostra patria è il mondo intero
e nostra legge è la libertà
ed un pensiero
ribelle in cor ci sta." P.Gori


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Scott Kitterman]

On Tuesday, March 27, 2012 03:09:17 PM Francesca Ciceri wrote:
> It's kinda like a short circuit: diversity statement accept everyone who
> accept the diversity statement, and if your {opinion|ideology|religion}
> doesn't comply with it you'll don't want - in the first place - to be
> part of a project based on diversity.
> It sound solid to me, but we can make it more explicit probably.

No.  I think that's not it.  I think the point is that you are welcome to 
whatever {opinion|ideology|religion} and Debian still welcomes you.  If your 
actions aren't consistent with Debian being broadly welcoming, then that is a 
problem.

We can always be accepting of people of any opinion.  Trying to decide if 
someone is having 'correct' thoughts to be in Debian is wrong.  The focus 
should be on what people do (and communication is one aspect of doing).

Scott K


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Francesca Ciceri]

On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 08:42:28AM +1100, Ben Finney wrote:
> Francesca Ciceri  writes:
> 
> >   ** changes proposed for (1):
> >  - s/religions/religious belief or disbelief/ (dkg)
> 
> It's foolish to commit to respect all opinions. Some opinions (some
> political or religious beliefs, for example) are not worthy of respect,
> and some are indeed destructive of a welcoming environment.
> 
> We should respect a person's right to *hold* whatever opinions they
> like; but those opinions, when expressed, should get no assumed
> protection, not even in a diversity statement. If the opinion is unsound
> or hateful or otherwise unworthy of respect, it should get no protection
> in a public forum.

Yeah, I see your argument. And is a valid one, IMO. 
I think that Russ reply [1] to a similar concern express by Gregor
fits also your argument: we welcome people who are ok with the diversity
statement, so no hateful ideology/religion/whatever can be part of it, as
it doesn't comply with the diversity statement itself.

It's kinda like a short circuit: diversity statement accept everyone who
accept the diversity statement, and if your {opinion|ideology|religion}
doesn't comply with it you'll don't want - in the first place - to be
part of a project based on diversity.
It sound solid to me, but we can make it more explicit probably.

> We should not commit to respecting opinions, but instead commit to
> respecting all people.

How do you suggest to express it in the statement? 

Cheers,
Francesca

[1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2012/03/msg00058.html


-- 
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e nostra legge è la libertà
ed un pensiero
ribelle in cor ci sta." P.Gori


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[MJ Ray]

Gunnar Wolf 
> [...] if debian-women as re-formed today, it would probably be called
> debian-inclusiveness or something like that. It just does not stop at
> welcoming women and making Debian a gender-agnostic place.

So rename it?

> And, guys and girls in d-women, you are for me one of the most
> inspiring, hard-working and most admirable parts of the project.

Yes, they seem to be doing mostly good work and are more inclusive
than the name suggests, but I just can't bring myself to support
groups with such a basically exclusive name that misleads people.

Anyway, it's disappointing that only this point attracted any
attention and the more urgent points either side (who will enforce it?
what happens if the GR fails?) seem to have been ignored.

Hope that explains,
-- 
MJR/slef
My Opinion Only: see http://people.debian.org/~mjr/
Please follow http://www.uk.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct



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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Charles Plessy]

Le Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 05:31:35PM +0200, Francesca Ciceri a écrit :
> Even if bikeshedding is sometimes really annoying, this is the right way
> to reach a consensus on a such important document and transform it from a
> copy-pasted template to *our* diversity statement. :)

Hi,

I still do not understand why we need to have "our" diversity statement,
attempt to re-write what has been well written by others.  To me, it is like
license proliferation.  Or imagine if each Debian derivative felt they need to
write their own compatible version of the DFSG to better show their attachement
to software freedom.  Dreamwidth's statement is inspiring; it is the kind of
text that is nice to disover one morning, as it will may that day better.  But
as many other proses, modifying it for the sake of it will not result in an
improvement.  Why do not we write simply that we recognise ourselves in the
spirit of Dreamwidth's statement ?  In particular, one crucial difference with
the current proposal is that Dreamwidth's text makes an extensive use of long
list as a figure of style, while in our case it sill gives me a feeling of
legalese.

More of a detail, but for the neurotypes, I think that it is important to leave
this out.  On debian-devel, we have to be accurate when we discuss about things
(like init systems).  Why on debian-project wouldn't it be the same ?  I could
not find a reference defintion of neurotype on the Internet.  I think that 
teaching
people that they have a different neurotype is as wrong and harmful as teaching
them that the reason of their problems was that their parents did not love them.
We need to be humble and recognise that in some cases, we do not understand
what makes people suffer.

I think that we give a wrong image, and false hopes, with a list that goes too
far on the details.  Why not focusing on the categories for which we know that
we actually do something, and document what we do.  That is also where we stand
out from other groups: do-ocraty.

 - We have debian-women and other expression media to work to reduce
   passive and active discrimination.

 - Our infrastructure tries to be as non-discriminative as possible,
   and for instance we do not require members to indicate their sex or gender
   in our LDAP database (although if I remember well, we can if we want).

 - Any other ?  Do we enforce for instance that sponsored events that include 
organised
   meals must give opportunity for vegetarians to have proper menus if they ask 
for ?

And as part of a painful exercise, why not writing black on white where we
think that we can not act.

 - While we welcome people with any nationality, we probably can not give
   access to some of our servers located in country A, to people living
   or nationals of country B, where A embargoes B.

 - We require our members to identify themselves with official papers delivered
   from their state, so if their state is hostile to their minority (like
   refusing to change the name for transgender or transsexuals), we can not 
help.

Have a nice day, and many thanks again for bringing this up.  This will be an
important contribution to Debian.

-- 
Charles Plessy
Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Craig Small]

On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 09:15:14PM +0100, Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> Why do we need such a statement? Are we doing something better or worse
> with/without it, does it change anything?
I wondered that myself.  If it is something people care about then, sure
go for it I guess.

Generally I don't know, or even care, what a type of (insert that real
big list of things, a lot I don't understand, in that statement) someone is;
it comes down to did they supply a decent patch or report the bug
correctly?

We do discriminate on ability to carry out specific functions (ie to
look after a package you need to be able to look after a package) so as
long as it doesn't say something otherwise that's fine too.

 - Craig
-- 
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Debian GNU/Linux http://www.debian.org/  csmall at : debian.org
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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Ben Finney]

Francesca Ciceri  writes:

>   ** changes proposed for (1):
>  - s/religions/religious belief or disbelief/ (dkg)

It's foolish to commit to respect all opinions. Some opinions (some
political or religious beliefs, for example) are not worthy of respect,
and some are indeed destructive of a welcoming environment.

We should respect a person's right to *hold* whatever opinions they
like; but those opinions, when expressed, should get no assumed
protection, not even in a diversity statement. If the opinion is unsound
or hateful or otherwise unworthy of respect, it should get no protection
in a public forum.

We should not commit to respecting opinions, but instead commit to
respecting all people.

-- 
 \ “Yesterday I parked my car in a tow-away zone. When I came back |
  `\  the entire area was missing.” —Steven Wright |
_o__)  |
Ben Finney


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Gunnar Wolf]

Russ Allbery dijo [Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 10:03:20AM -0700]:
> MJ Ray  writes:
> 
> > 2. the continuing existance of the Debian Women mailing list illustrates
> > one way the whole-project level still does not honour diversity and
> > creates special spaces for some groups but not others.
> 
> I just can't let this stand.
> 
> Color-blindness is a myth.  And gender-blindness is a myth.  Both of them
> are destructive myths that are used to cover up inequities by refusing to
> talk about them on the grounds that we should instead be blind to the
> ongoing problems, making both terms rather apt.
> (…)

Excellent wording. And just let me add a little remark to this (which
is already known by everybody involved, but still…)

debian-women is the name of the group that was created because of a
specific problem Debian had, and has had quite a bit of success (if
not so much numerically, behaiourally and culturally yes). But if
debian-women as re-formed today, it would probably be called
debian-inclusiveness or something like that. It just does not stop at
welcoming women and making Debian a gender-agnostic place.

And, guys and girls in d-women, you are for me one of the most
inspiring, hard-working and most admirable parts of the project.


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Kevin Mark]

On Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 10:03:20AM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
> MJ Ray  writes:
> 
> > 2. the continuing existance of the Debian Women mailing list illustrates
> > one way the whole-project level still does not honour diversity and
> > creates special spaces for some groups but not others.
> 
> I just can't let this stand.
+1
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| : :' : The Universal OS| mysite.verizon.net/kevin.mark/.|
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Earl Wiener, 55, a University of Miami professor of management science,
telling the Airline Pilots Association (in jest) about 21st century aircraft:

"The crew will consist of one pilot and a dog.  The pilot will
nurture and feed the dog.  The dog will be there to bite the
pilot if he touches anything.
-- Fortune, Sept. 26, 1988
   [the *magazine*, silly!]


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Russ Allbery]

MJ Ray  writes:

> 2. the continuing existance of the Debian Women mailing list illustrates
> one way the whole-project level still does not honour diversity and
> creates special spaces for some groups but not others.

I just can't let this stand.

Color-blindness is a myth.  And gender-blindness is a myth.  Both of them
are destructive myths that are used to cover up inequities by refusing to
talk about them on the grounds that we should instead be blind to the
ongoing problems, making both terms rather apt.

Difference-blind policies only work to sustain an environment that already
has no discrimination and absolute diversity.  That world of magical
unicorns does not exist.  It is certainly not the world we live in.  And
difference-blind policies applied to the actual, imperfect world we have
destroy diversity rather than create it, because they perpetuate the
status quo and destroy the ability to talk about the ways in which the
world is not made of magical unicorns.  The majority group always thinks
that it is welcoming, and uses the difference-blind policy to shout down
minority groups whenever they disagree.

Creating safe space for groups who may otherwise be marginalized is one of
the key steps in diversity, and is vital to creating a more diverse
environment in the larger project.  You CANNOT jump directly from "women
are only 5% of the participants and are not welcomed" to "we ignore gender
and everyone contributes in the same spaces in the same way."  It flatly
doesn't work.  *Humans* don't work that way.  You need support networks,
support groups, safe spaces, and other techniques to *build* diversity and
change the culture incrementally, not simply wish it into existence.

We are a very long way from being in a place where difference supposedly
unrelated to the goal of the community can be ignored completely, if it's
even possible for humans to *ever* reach such a place.

The first step in being diverse is being *aware*.  You cannot be aware
when you're blind.

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Gunnar Wolf]

Hi Francesca,

I have not done any analysis in the (deep, interesting) way all of the
people you have quoted has. I do feel it's positive to have this kind
of statement, and I thank you for bringing it forward.

I'll just talk on a formal level here:

> * isn't better a GR to give this statement more force/legitimation?
> 
> I'd prefer one, yes. But it's also true that in the next months people
> will work hard for the upcoming freeze and it seems a waste of time to
> ask them to vote when we can reach a consensus via mailing list.
> If we can't reach a consensus here, I will propose
> a GR about it.

I suggest this is submitted to a GR *even* if consensus is
reached. I'd like this kind of document to be deep-reaching, maybe
even accompany the SC and the DFSG as our basament documents. There's
always the discussion on what does the "silent minority" say - And a
good way IMO to get every DD at least informed about this (if they
don't follow the lists) and get their real standpoint (of course,
understanding that not casting a vote means "I don't care, I'll agree
with whatever the project decides") is via a GR.

We thankfully don't do GRs as often as we could. Yes, they are defined
in a bureaucratic way, and quite on purpose. But precisely for a deep
change such as what you are proposing, I think a GR is the perfect way
forward.


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Kevin Mark]

On Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 05:31:35PM +0200, Francesca Ciceri wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> first of all let me say a *big thank you* for who took a moment (or more)
> to think about this proposal, criticizing the form of it, reviewing it,
> sending patches and fixes, asking for clarifications or providing them.
> And not only in this thread but also in IRC and via private mails.

Thanks for doing this and I like the first draft of it. Time will tell if we
attract the people who are not currently part of our community.

-- 
|  .''`.  == Debian GNU/Linux ==.| http://kevix.myopenid.com..|
| : :' : The Universal OS| mysite.verizon.net/kevin.mark/.|
| `. `'   http://www.debian.org/.| http://counter.li.org [#238656]|
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Die, v.:
To stop sinning suddenly.
-- Elbert Hubbard


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Francesca Ciceri]

Hi,

first of all let me say a *big thank you* for who took a moment (or more)
to think about this proposal, criticizing the form of it, reviewing it,
sending patches and fixes, asking for clarifications or providing them.
And not only in this thread but also in IRC and via private mails.

Even if bikeshedding is sometimes really annoying, this is the right way
to reach a consensus on a such important document and transform it from a
copy-pasted template to *our* diversity statement. :)

Trying to summarize, these are IMHO the most important points emerged:

* (1)long list vs (2)one-line statement

  ** changes proposed for (1):
 - s/race// (Lunar^)
 - s/religions/religious belief or disbelief/ (dkg)
 - technical ability vs skillset and field of expertise (Ian, Russ,
   Enrico)
 - "neurotype" is not a medical/scientific accepted concept, so it'd
   better to not put it beside "genotype" or "fenotype" which are.
   (Charles)
 - +sex (Charles)

Tbh, I prefer (1), I find it more insipiring and moving. 
And Kevin is illuminating when he says:

On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 19:40:40 Kevin Mark wrote:
> 
> So a statement should explicitly
> list a good mix of what we are not getting, and by 'good mix' I dont mean
> exhaustive. Because if you have a half-way decent one, it will lend
> itself to the idea that you are just darn happy to include other 
> less-well-included folks.

A not exhaustive list means exactly that: here's a list of people who
usually feel/are - historically - discriminated, there could be other way
of discriminating on grounds of other criteria, and we will not accept
them, as well as we don't accept the most-common-kinds-of-discrimination
explicitly listed.
The most-common-kinds-of-discrimination (i.e. the ones put on the list)
are just examples.

* isn't better a GR to give this statement more force/legitimation?

I'd prefer one, yes. But it's also true that in the next months people
will work hard for the upcoming freeze and it seems a waste of time to
ask them to vote when we can reach a consensus via mailing list.
If we can't reach a consensus here, I will propose
a GR about it.

So, attached the new text. It's still the "list" version, including
fixes proposed. I've also added the paragraph proposed by Russ because -
even if he said otherwise - it seems perfect to me.
But if the choice will be between a one-line statement or no statement,
I'll choose the first. :)

Cheers,
Francesca
-- 
"Nostra patria è il mondo intero
e nostra legge è la libertà
ed un pensiero
ribelle in cor ci sta." P.Gori
The Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone.
We are committed to being a community that everyone feels good about
joining. Although we may not be able to satisfy everyone, we will always
work to treat everyone well.

Whenever any participant has made a mistake, we expect them to take
responsibility for it. If someone has been harmed or offended, it is our
responsibility to listen carefully and respectfully, and do our best to
right the wrong.
We also expect people to be constructive members of the community.

Although this list cannot be exhaustive, we explicitly honour diversity
in age, culture, ethnicity, genotype, gender identity or expression,
language, national origin, phenotype, political beliefs, sex,
profession, neurotype, religious beliefs or disbeliefs, sexual orientation,
socio-economic status, subculture, skillset and field of expertise.

We welcome contributions from everyone within their areas of
particular expertise. While much of the work of the Project is
technical in nature, we will value and encourage contributions to
the Project from those with expertise in non-technical areas and
welcome such contributors as part of our community.

Ideas and wording for this statement were based on diversity statements
from the Ubuntu community 
,
the Python community  and
Dreamwidth Studios .

This document is usable under a Creative Commons 3.0 BY-SA license.


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[MJ Ray]

Francesca Ciceri 
> a recent discussion [1] on Debian Women mailing list made me realize that
> the Debian Project, the *Universal* Operating System, doesn't have a
> diversity statement [2].

I have three worries:

1. what's the point? What will actually change as a result of this
statement? When someone next starts smearing a fellow contributor
because they objected to a majority-supported action on
religion/belief grounds (for some religions do directly contradict
each other), or offers only obnoxious ways for people to opt-out of
such actions, how will this statement help?  Who do you think would
enforce it and are they willing to do so, or is the DPL willing to
appoint more volunteers who are willing to do so?

2. the continuing existance of the Debian Women mailing list
illustrates one way the whole-project level still does not honour
diversity and creates special spaces for some groups but not others.

3. what if the developers by way of General Resolution reject it?

Regards,
-- 
MJR/slef
My Opinion Only: see http://people.debian.org/~mjr/
Please follow http://www.uk.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Kevin Mark]

On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 01:31:07PM +0100, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
 
> It happens that we've got LGBT, many racial backgrounds, both biological 
> sexes, all gender identities,
> people from many language backgrounds, people with disabilities, people of 
> all religious beliefs 
> and people who have none (should I need a pastor who is also a sysadmin, I 
> know exactly
> who to turn to, for example), people who live in all environments up to and 
> including the ultra 
> self-sufficient types living remotely and off-grid.
> 
> About the only political stance we've taken was a very long time ago: posts 
> from a Finnish neo-Nazi
> were removed as a) culturally inappropriate, b) essentially entirely 
> irrelevant to Debian and 
> c) inappropriate for certain European and other countries where Nazi 
> propaganda is illegal.

some people might see a short statement like 'we dont discriminate and accept
all people' as 'better'.  the idea that you dont enumerate any group and use a
general term for 'all catagroies' sounds like you have won something by not
leaving anyone out.  But the nature of the statement is not suppose to be
'perfect' because its the enemy of the good. The general trend in technical
fields is that white, middle-class, college-educated, American/European,
English-speaking, cis-gendered, hetero males are going to apply 99% of the time
and dont need to be reminded of these facts. So a statement should explicitly
list a good mix of what we are not getting, and by 'good mix' I dont mean
exhaustive. Because if you have a half-way decent one, it will lend itself to 
the
idea that you are just darn happy to include other less-well-included folks.
In fact, I like the statement the way Andrew wrote it because it is an
informal, friendly and somewhat humorous approach to sounding inclusive.
It doesn't sound like your talking to an HR person who is reading something
prepared by a lawyer, it sounds like a cool human wrote it for other cool
humans. And the idea that our statement can be edited and extended (by a patch
:)) is something that most democracies dont allow, so why not add something if
people want it, its not like you print these things out. And I dont think its
bad to make a version that's not pefect the first time or dont write one. We
modify all kinds of documents all the time.

But I'm sure I'm in the minority for thinking that :)

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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

On Sat, Mar 24, 2012 at 09:49:34AM +1100, Ben Finney wrote:
> gregor herrmann  writes:
> 
> > On Fri, 23 Mar 2012 20:38:39 +0100, Enrico Zini wrote:
> >
> > > I can think of another thing that we care about, which I don't see
> > > mentioned here: "We expect people to be constructive members of the
> > > community."
> >
> > Agreed.
> >
> > And I think we are also not open to people who don't share these
> > values, e.g. people with a racist, sexist, ... behaviour.
> 
> That gets to another troubling part of the draft: Are there not some
> political opinions, even some religions, that we should discriminate
> against as being detrimental to the goal of a universal operating
> system?
> 
> -- 
>  \  “Compulsory unification of opinion achieves only the unanimity |
>   `\of the graveyard.” —Justice Roberts in 319 U.S. 624 (1943) |
> _o__)  |
> Ben Finney


It's difficult. We don't censor our mailing lists: we don't often throw
people out. We are very accepting.

This si the argument that comes up so very regularly when we get people from
outside the project saying "Remove my name/post because I did something silly 
a long time ago" - it's a bit late, and all you do is draw further attention 
to yourself - it's archived everywhere.

We don't tolerate extreme sexist/racist behaviour - but we will accept 
many forms of intolerant/difficult behaviour on our mailing lists. 
People do begin to understand the culture after a while and most people
work together well. In fact, Debian is a textbook example of a self-organising
society - most of us hang around here because we want to and we value Debian
the operating system and Debian the Project/society/internet grouping.

It happens that we've got LGBT, many racial backgrounds, both biological sexes, 
all gender identities,
people from many language backgrounds, people with disabilities, people of all 
religious beliefs 
and people who have none (should I need a pastor who is also a sysadmin, I know 
exactly
who to turn to, for example), people who live in all environments up to and 
including the ultra 
self-sufficient types living remotely and off-grid.

About the only political stance we've taken was a very long time ago: posts 
from a Finnish neo-Nazi
weere removed as a) culturally inappropriate, b) essentially entirely 
irrelevant to Debian and 
c) inappropriate for certain European and other countries where Nazi propaganda 
is illegal.

Debian _sounds_ diverse and is diverse: novice users may be significantly put 
off by perceived technical
difficulty, novice maintainers/developers/formally recognised contributors are 
usually Debian users
with some degree of experience - but we all contribute in some way.


Don't get too hung up on the statement provided that it's fairly reflective of 
the fact that the
project seeks to be inclusive and to support the OS which is largely 
culture-neutral.

Just my 0.2c

AndyC


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Amaya]

Russ Allbery wrote:
> I think, rather than saying that we won't discriminate on the basis of
> something like technical ability, we should instead say something along
> the lines of:
> 
> We welcome contributions from everyone within their areas of
> particular expertise.  While much of the work of the Project is
> technical in nature, we will value and encourage contributions to the
> Project from those with expertise in non-technical areas and welcome
> such contributors as part of our community.

http://pinterest.com/pin/244953667202151755/

:)

-- 
 .''`.The world breaks everyone, and afterward, some are
: :' :strong at the broken places.- Ernest Hemingway
`. `'   
  `-Proudly running Debian GNU/Linux


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Paul Wise]

On Sat, Mar 24, 2012 at 10:06 AM, Charles Plessy wrote:

> In summary, I would much prefer a short statement, where writing "everyone" is
> enough to mean "everyone".  I think that a variation of the following 
> paragraph
> proposed by Russ, perhaps complemented by a comment about the DFSG, is enough.

Agreed, the list of differences serves no useful purpose and can never
be complete.

-- 
bye,
pabs

http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Jose Luis Rivas]

On 03/23/2012 09:36 PM, Charles Plessy wrote:
> Le Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 02:28:58PM +0100, Francesca Ciceri a écrit :
>>
>> A diversity statement is a document expliciting something really
>> important: that everyone (no matter of gender identity or expression,
>> race, ethnicity, size, nationality, sexual orientation, ability level,
>> neurotype, religion, elder status, family structure, culture, subculture,
>> political opinion, identity, and self-identification) is welcome to join
>> our project.
> 
> Dear Francesca,
> 
> I think that it is a good idea to document and summarise in a short text what
> the Debian Project is doing to be open.  In that sense, the DFSG number 6 and
> the participation of Developers who do not maintain packages are, as already
> underlined by others, key informations to give.
> 
> I have more mixed feelings with the long list of inclusions in your draft,
> which remind me patents or the autmatic disclaimers we see in many licenses.
> Just imagine how it would look like if the list of who we would consider being
> "everyone" were written in all capitals.  In addition, the more precise we try
> to be in listing who we welcome, the more it is a mistake to forget items the
> list.
> 
> Note that division of men in categories is controversial in some cultures.  
> For
> instance, one of two most supported candidates for presidence of France is
> actually proposing to modify the French constitution in a way opposite to the
> spirit of your disclaimer, by removing the mention that French citizens of
> different races are equal, to underline that the French republic does not
> recognise the concept of race.
> 
> Another problematic item in your list is "neurotype", for which there is no
> entry in the US national libray of medecine database (PubMed) that indexes 
> more
> than two million peer-reviewed articles in medecine and biology.  Put in the
> same list as "genotype" and "phenotype", it vehiculates the feeling that
> "neurotype" is an equally precise concept, which is not.
> 
> The absence of "sex" is also putting some cultural imprinting in your list,
> which achieves the opposite of the initial goal: while the statement is there
> to promote openness, it also reveals how culturally biased our project is.
> 
> In summary, I would much prefer a short statement, where writing "everyone" is
> enough to mean "everyone".  I think that a variation of the following 
> paragraph
> proposed by Russ, perhaps complemented by a comment about the DFSG, is enough.
> 
> Le Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 10:19:19AM -0700, Russ Allbery a écrit :
>>
>> We welcome contributions from everyone within their areas of
>> particular expertise.  While much of the work of the Project is
>> technical in nature, we will value and encourage contributions to the
>> Project from those with expertise in non-technical areas and welcome
>> such contributors as part of our community.
> 
> Have a nice week-end,
> 

I adhere to Charles's comment. I would prefer a short statement where
there are no extensive lists of differences between us. I do believe
that's a way to make explicit segregation which is worse than implicit
segregation and will put us in a gray area where someone may feel is
left behind because how he consideres h{im,er}self is not listed. I know
this could sound silly for some but believe me that making a diversity
statement when there has been no prior segregation is silly too.

Shorter is better and give us space to be more inclusive that making
extensive lists which will make the statement more exclusive.

-- 
Jose Luis Rivas - GPG: 0x7C4DF50D / 0xCACAB118
The Debian Project Developer -- http://ghostbar.ath.cx
Barquisimeto, Venezuela



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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Charles Plessy]

Le Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 02:28:58PM +0100, Francesca Ciceri a écrit :
> 
> A diversity statement is a document expliciting something really
> important: that everyone (no matter of gender identity or expression,
> race, ethnicity, size, nationality, sexual orientation, ability level,
> neurotype, religion, elder status, family structure, culture, subculture,
> political opinion, identity, and self-identification) is welcome to join
> our project.

Dear Francesca,

I think that it is a good idea to document and summarise in a short text what
the Debian Project is doing to be open.  In that sense, the DFSG number 6 and
the participation of Developers who do not maintain packages are, as already
underlined by others, key informations to give.

I have more mixed feelings with the long list of inclusions in your draft,
which remind me patents or the autmatic disclaimers we see in many licenses.
Just imagine how it would look like if the list of who we would consider being
"everyone" were written in all capitals.  In addition, the more precise we try
to be in listing who we welcome, the more it is a mistake to forget items the
list.

Note that division of men in categories is controversial in some cultures.  For
instance, one of two most supported candidates for presidence of France is
actually proposing to modify the French constitution in a way opposite to the
spirit of your disclaimer, by removing the mention that French citizens of
different races are equal, to underline that the French republic does not
recognise the concept of race.

Another problematic item in your list is "neurotype", for which there is no
entry in the US national libray of medecine database (PubMed) that indexes more
than two million peer-reviewed articles in medecine and biology.  Put in the
same list as "genotype" and "phenotype", it vehiculates the feeling that
"neurotype" is an equally precise concept, which is not.

The absence of "sex" is also putting some cultural imprinting in your list,
which achieves the opposite of the initial goal: while the statement is there
to promote openness, it also reveals how culturally biased our project is.

In summary, I would much prefer a short statement, where writing "everyone" is
enough to mean "everyone".  I think that a variation of the following paragraph
proposed by Russ, perhaps complemented by a comment about the DFSG, is enough.

Le Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 10:19:19AM -0700, Russ Allbery a écrit :
> 
> We welcome contributions from everyone within their areas of
> particular expertise.  While much of the work of the Project is
> technical in nature, we will value and encourage contributions to the
> Project from those with expertise in non-technical areas and welcome
> such contributors as part of our community.

Have a nice week-end,

-- 
Charles Plessy
Debian Med packaging team,
http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-med
Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Faidon Liambotis]

On 03/23/12 15:28, Francesca Ciceri wrote:

So, I wrote a draft - mainly based on the one [4] created for Ubuntu
by Matt Zimmerman with the help of Mary Gardiner, Valerie Aurora
and Benjamin Mako Hill - and I'd like to propose it to the DPL to be
official published.


Thanks for doing this.

However, I'd prefer it if we acknowledged and published this by way of a 
General Resolution.


It's not that I don't think the DPL is empowered to publish it without a 
GR but I think that a) it feels better to me to have statements that 
express the whole project acknowledged and voted on by everyone b) it 
will give the whole "welcoming everyone/not discriminating" statement 
more weight.


Best regards,
Faidon


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Ben Finney]

Russ Allbery  writes:

> You can't have an open and welcoming environment if you're open to
> people who work to make the environment non-welcoming to others. It
> is, like most things in life, a balance.

Yes. This is why I'm troubled by the blanket welcome to opinions, like
political opinions and religions, without regard to what those opinions
direct people to do.

There are some hateful religions and political opinions out there, which
are significantly at odds with an open and welcoming environment, and I
don't think the Debian Project should be welcoming to those.

We should welcome every person, but not every opinion.

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Ben Finney


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Russ Allbery]

Ben Finney  writes:

> That gets to another troubling part of the draft: Are there not some
> political opinions, even some religions, that we should discriminate
> against as being detrimental to the goal of a universal operating
> system?

Meh.  Yes, sort of, I guess, but pretty much everyone else's diversity
statements include those, and I think people understand what it means.
Obviously, different things in any list like this can contradict each
other (neurotype diversity doesn't mean tolerating people with an
uncontrolled hatred of women, to pick an obvious example), but by the time
one attempts to split all of those hairs, you end up with a statement that
fails to be inspirational or a meaningful statement of ideals.

A diversity statement is not a binding rule that has to be parsed for any
possible ambiguity.  It's an aspirational statement that contains grey
areas, which I think people have to sort out for themselves.

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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Ben Finney]

Francesca Ciceri  writes:

> On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 02:56:21PM +, Ian Jackson wrote:
> > I think we should make it clear that our aim is that participation
> > in the development of Debian should be equally open to all,
> > discriminating only on the basis of people's ability and the quality
> > of their contributions.
>
> Makes sense, but it strongly depends on the meaning of "participation
> in the developement of Debian".

Note that Debian is the name of the operating system we're building. The
name of the project is “the Debian Project”.

Sometimes we're sloppy with wording, but it seems we need to be clear in
this document since that sloppiness has already led to a
misunderstanding of what is meant.

> IMO Debian became in the last years something more than an
> operating system, and - as consequence - the "development of Debian"
> does no longer mean only packaging (or other code-related activity).
> Basically anyone can "make a valuable contribution to" Debian.

So here, I think you'd be best referring specifically to the project,
since you no longer mean specifically Debian (which is an operating
system).

-- 
 \   “You can never entirely stop being what you once were. That's |
  `\   why it's important to be the right person today, and not put it |
_o__) off until tomorrow.” —Larry Wall |
Ben Finney


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Ben Finney]

gregor herrmann  writes:

> On Fri, 23 Mar 2012 20:38:39 +0100, Enrico Zini wrote:
>
> > I can think of another thing that we care about, which I don't see
> > mentioned here: "We expect people to be constructive members of the
> > community."
>
> Agreed.
>
> And I think we are also not open to people who don't share these
> values, e.g. people with a racist, sexist, ... behaviour.

That gets to another troubling part of the draft: Are there not some
political opinions, even some religions, that we should discriminate
against as being detrimental to the goal of a universal operating
system?

-- 
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_o__)  |
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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[gregor herrmann]

On Fri, 23 Mar 2012 13:17:42 -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:

> > And I think we are also not open to people who don't share these
> > values, e.g. people with a racist, sexist, ... behaviour.
> While I certainly agree, I think it's best to leave the latter implicit in
> the statement of what we *do* accept, since otherwise one can easily get
> caught up in one of the more annoying derailing arguments ("you're
> intolerant of my intolerance!").  

Yup, that's the old question (limits of tolerance, or of democracy
[0]).

> After all, if we have a project
> diversity statement, the obvious implication is that the members of the
> project should pay attention to it as a guide for how to interact with
> people.  

Ok, if it's obvious enough, and the statement is about the positive
side (what we _do_ welcome), my footnote is maybe really uncalled
for.

Cheers,
gregor

[0] cf. the concept of "Streitbare Demokratie" in Germany:
"The idea behind the concept is the notion that even a majority of
the people cannot be allowed to install a totalitarian or autocratic
regime, ..."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streitbare_Demokratie
 
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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[gregor herrmann]

On Fri, 23 Mar 2012 13:25:41 -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:

> >> And I think we are also not open to people who don't share these
> >> values, e.g. people with a racist, sexist, ... behaviour.
> > Why?
> You can't have an open and welcoming environment if you're open to people
> who work to make the environment non-welcoming to others.  
> [..] Inclusivity does mean telling people who are not willing
> to allow others to be included that they should find a different project
> to be part of.

Thanks for putting my thought into better words than I could do.

Cheers,
gregor
 
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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Russ Allbery]

Jakub Wilk  writes:
> * gregor herrmann , 2012-03-23, 21:07:

>> And I think we are also not open to people who don't share these
>> values, e.g. people with a racist, sexist, ... behaviour.

> Why?

You can't have an open and welcoming environment if you're open to people
who work to make the environment non-welcoming to others.  It is, like
most things in life, a balance.

There's an old saying: the problem with an open mind is that people throw
all kinds of crap into it.  Neither one's mind nor one's community should
be *too* open.  Inclusivity does mean telling people who are not willing
to allow others to be included that they should find a different project
to be part of.

The point of a diversity statement is not to accept all behavior of any
kind.  It's to make a positive statement about what sort of behavior we're
actively seeking out and want to align ourselves with.

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Russ Allbery]

Joerg Jaspert  writes:
> On 12794 March 1977, Francesca Ciceri wrote:

>> a recent discussion [1] on Debian Women mailing list made me realize
>> that the Debian Project, the *Universal* Operating System, doesn't have
>> a diversity statement [2].

> Why do we need such a statement? Are we doing something better or worse
> with/without it, does it change anything?

It's a statement of ideals.  Statements of ideals don't generally change
things in the way that, oh, code or even enforced policies change things.
The influence is at best subtle.  But I think statements of ideals are
useful things to have because they help people think about ideals, and
remember that the ideals are important, and that we can all do something
to live up to those ideals.  And that that can be as significant of an
action as fixing a technical bug.

I know that when I run across the Dreamwidth one and re-read it, it means
something to me, and it subtlely makes my behavior towards others better
for a while.

I think it's fine if the statement of ideals doesn't really mean much to
some; heaven knows that I'm often not in the mood for them, and when I'm
not, they seem like a bunch of fluff.  But I do think it can have a
subtle, long-term effect.

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Jakub Wilk]

* gregor herrmann , 2012-03-23, 21:07:
And I think we are also not open to people who don't share these 
values, e.g. people with a racist, sexist, ... behaviour.


Why?

--
Jakub Wilk


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Russ Allbery]

gregor herrmann  writes:
> On Fri, 23 Mar 2012 20:38:39 +0100, Enrico Zini wrote:

>> I can think of another thing that we care about, which I don't see
>> mentioned here: "We expect people to be constructive members of the
>> community."

> Agreed.

> And I think we are also not open to people who don't share these
> values, e.g. people with a racist, sexist, ... behaviour.

While I certainly agree, I think it's best to leave the latter implicit in
the statement of what we *do* accept, since otherwise one can easily get
caught up in one of the more annoying derailing arguments ("you're
intolerant of my intolerance!").  After all, if we have a project
diversity statement, the obvious implication is that the members of the
project should pay attention to it as a guide for how to interact with
people.  And we want to avoid having the diversity statement drift into a
code of conduct, as that involves a whole different set of arguments (that
I think are mostly beside the point of a diversity statement).

For those who haven't seen it, this is my all-time favorite diversity
statement, although it's not completely applicable to Debian:

http://www.dreamwidth.org/legal/diversity

The Ubuntu one isn't at all bad, and I think it's a good model to follow,
but I find the Dreamwidth statement actively inspiring and emotionally
moving, which is pretty rare for things that get buried in the "legal"
section of a web site.  (Which may be a bit too much to aspire to when
we're a large and diverse project; Dreamwidth has the advantage that their
diversity statement only had to be signed by two people when they first
wrote it.)

-- 
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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Joerg Jaspert]

On 12794 March 1977, Francesca Ciceri wrote:

> a recent discussion [1] on Debian Women mailing list made me realize that
> the Debian Project, the *Universal* Operating System, doesn't have a
> diversity statement [2].

Why do we need such a statement? Are we doing something better or worse
with/without it, does it change anything?

-- 
bye, Joerg
> Or write yourself a DFSG-free replacement for that piece of software.
Using the copy and paste method from the old source, obscured by 
irrelevant changes.


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[gregor herrmann]

On Fri, 23 Mar 2012 20:38:39 +0100, Enrico Zini wrote:

> I can think of another thing that we care about, which I don't see
> mentioned here: "We expect people to be constructive members of the
> community."

Agreed.

And I think we are also not open to people who don't share these
values, e.g. people with a racist, sexist, ... behaviour.
 

Cheers,
gregor
 
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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Enrico Zini]

On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 02:28:58PM +0100, Francesca Ciceri wrote:

> But I'd also like to have some inputs from you all, on it.

Since one of my responsibilities in Debian is to actually discriminate
people, I feel like I should contribute :)

I like your idea. Such a statement is IMO a direct consequence of
defining ourselves a "universal operating system", and of having DFSG5
and DFSG6 in our Social Contract; but it's good that we spell it out.

I also like the draft, and I'd happily accept it as it is. This is the
extra input I can give:

> The Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone.
> We are committed to being a community that everyone feels good about
> joining. Although we may not be able to satisty everyone, we will always
> work to treat everyone well.

> Whenever any participant has made a mistake, we expect them to take
> responsibility for it. If someone has been harmed or offended, it is our
> responsibility to listen carefully and respectfully, and do our best to
> right the wrong.

I can think of another thing that we care about, which I don't see
mentioned here: "We expect people to be constructive members of the
community."

That is something that we have learnt to pay attention to, over the
years.

> Although this list cannot be exhaustive, we explicitly honour diversity
> in age, culture, ethnicity, genotype, gender identity or expression,
> language, national origin, neurotype, phenotype, political beliefs,
> profession, race, religion, sexual orientation, socio-economic status,
> subculture and technical ability.

I could see elsewhere in this thread how detailed lists are a fantastic
bikeshedding magnet; I wish I had an idea on how to get away with a list
and just say "what part of universal do you not get?". But I don't have
any good idea to offer, and that list does the job.

I fully agree with Russ at
http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2012/03/msg00054.html
and I wonder if it's just enough to replace "technical ability" with
"skillset, and field of expertise".


Ciao,

Enrico

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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Russ Allbery]

Ian Jackson  writes:

> There are other kinds of ability besides technical ability.  All of
> those useful activities you mentioned depend on the ability of the
> people doing them.  And it is right and proper that when we choose with
> whom we do these things, we should discriminate on the basis of ability.

> And when it comes to technical work, we should discriminate on the basis
> of technical as well as other kinds of ability.  To say "we will not
> discriminate on the basis of technical ability", when what we are
> undertaking is fundamentally a technical project, is absurd.

I think, rather than saying that we won't discriminate on the basis of
something like technical ability, we should instead say something along
the lines of:

We welcome contributions from everyone within their areas of
particular expertise.  While much of the work of the Project is
technical in nature, we will value and encourage contributions to the
Project from those with expertise in non-technical areas and welcome
such contributors as part of our community.

That's not very good, and I wouldn't want to put that into the statement
directly, but it should hopefully communicate the basic idea.

-- 
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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Ian Jackson]

Francesca Ciceri writes ("Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project"):
> On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 02:56:21PM +, Ian Jackson wrote:
> > I think we should make it clear that our aim is that participation in
> > the development of Debian should be equally open to all,
> > discriminating only on the basis of people's ability and the quality
> > of their contributions.
> 
> Makes sense, but it strongly depends on the meaning of "participation in
> the developement of Debian".
> IMO Debian became in the last years something more than an
> operating system, and - as consequence - the "development of Debian"
> does no longer mean only packaging (or other code-related activity).

We have recognised that for some time.

> Basically anyone can "make a valuable contribution to" Debian.

This is still patently false.  Consider a newborn baby, or someone in
hospital in a coma.

...
> With these premises, technical ability (intended, as I think you do but
> please correct me if I'm wrong, as coding/packaging ability) is not
> IMO a pre-requisite to contribute.

There are other kinds of ability besides technical ability.  All of
those useful activities you mentioned depend on the ability of the
people doing them.  And it is right and proper that when we choose
with whom we do these things, we should discriminate on the basis of
ability.

And when it comes to technical work, we should discriminate on the
basis of technical as well as other kinds of ability.  To say "we will
not discriminate on the basis of technical ability", when what we are
undertaking is fundamentally a technical project, is absurd.

Ian.


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Re: Diversity statement for the Debian Project

[Ian Jackson]

Francesca Ciceri writes ("Diversity statement for the Debian Project"):
> So, I wrote a draft - mainly based on the one [4] created for Ubuntu
> by Matt Zimmerman with the help of Mary Gardiner, Valerie Aurora 
> and Benjamin Mako Hill - and I'd like to propose it to the DPL to be
> official published.

I agree with the motives behind this.  But I have are some
difficulties with your wording; or, if you prefer, I feel this needs
to be qualified.

> --
...
> Although this list cannot be exhaustive, we explicitly honour diversity
> in age, culture, ethnicity, genotype, gender identity or expression,
> language, national origin, neurotype, phenotype, political beliefs,
> profession, race, religion, sexual orientation, socio-economic status,
> subculture and technical ability.

What does "honouring diversity" actually mean ?

If it means "we won't discriminate on grounds of " then
"technical ability" needs not to be there.  And while it might be nice
in theory to try to be neutral as to language, in practice internal
communications are primarily in English, and official or formal
announcements and documents of any kind are expected to be in English.

So perhaps you mean something weaker.

One of the things that I would be opposed to is statements like that
found in the Ubuntu Code of Conduct, which says, amongst other things,
 |  Everyone can make a valuable contribution to Ubuntu.
While I can see where the underlying sentiment is coming from, this
statement is patently false.  I would prefer to avoid false
platitudes.

I think we should make it clear that our aim is that participation in
the development of Debian should be equally open to all,
discriminating only on the basis of people's ability and the quality
of their contributions.

A much broader statement is appropriate with respect to our users;
your broad but still non-exhaustive list is a good one in that
context.  Our aim should be to support all users as best we can.
You need to add "location" to the list.

Ian.


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