Re: Need of non-germany-tree in Debian?

[Michelle Konzack]

Am 2007-07-13 20:48:41, schrieb Malte Hahlbeck:
> Michelle Konzack wrote:
> > The new german LAW is talking about Software which was build to hack
> > sites.  "Security Software like nmap, nessus etc." are not build to
> > do illegal hacking.  (Greetings from my Advocat from Offenburg)
> 
> But they could be used to prepare an attack. It talks about the software
> and not the intention. That's the point.

Example of more which can illegalized:  BaSH and wget

Last week a friend gaved me a link to a Website 
where you can get FREE erotic pics by subscribing to a newsletter...  

OK I wrote a procmail recipe, a cronjob and BaSH script which

  1)  extract the 12 indes.html links from the incoming E-Mail
  2)  download each index.html with contents
  3)  spider the index.html and download the 20 big 140 kiB
  JPEG's per index.html
  4)  adapt the links in the index.html
  5)  create a main_index.html for all downloaded index.html.

OK, downloading the stuff (~30 MiB/E-Mail) from the script take 15
minutes (ADSL 8 MBit).  this can ce considered as a DoS on the Wen-
Server and so the LAW can be made to illegalize BaSH and wget.

Note: It is definitivly a DoD since my moroccan freind gaved me 27
E-Mails he has received in the last two month and I have downloaded
the stuff at once...

> The definition of the law is vague, so that it has to be judged to get
> a "real" usable definition. Your lawyer should read the latest juritstic
> comments on that law.

We know it already but since I am involved in some Juridical stuff
between France and Germany...  you can simple overload the Justice and
the Law will be very ridicoulous.  (Collect or create real examples how
to use standard tools to make illegal things and demonstrate it at the
right time -- maybe directly in a Juridical Procedure;
This is was a hint from two judges from Ofenburg and Freiburg)

> > The german Justice can not do anything if I use the tools to secure
> > my network.
> 
> The text of this new law does not make this clear.

Right, and my Lawyer told me the same but he told me so that even Judges
and Attorneys would stop using it since the the justice can be simply
DoS'ed with it.  Only some not realy fit Judges/Attornyes would try to
make the think "bigger" as it is.

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant


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Re: Need of non-germany-tree in Debian?

[Michelle Konzack]

Am 2007-07-13 19:02:03, schrieb Bernd Zeimetz:
> also a lot of lawyers neither know the difference between hacking and
> cracking nor know why you should need to use such 'evil' software for
> your own protection.

:-/

Like th CCC where are only bad guys...

Oh yes, they can forbid shell scripts and wget/curl since someone can
do scripts which suck "special" (jpeg) content from erotic sites which
are difficult/slow to access via Webbrowser...

Lawyers!!!

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day
Michelle Konzack


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Re: Need of non-germany-tree in Debian?

[Michelle Konzack]

Am 2007-07-13 20:25:09, schrieb Michael Meskes:
> On Fri, Jul 13, 2007 at 07:02:03PM +0200, Bernd Zeimetz wrote:
> > > Interpretation of that law differs. Ask three lawyers, get five answers.
> > >   
> > also a lot of lawyers neither know the difference between hacking and
> > cracking nor know why you should need to use such 'evil' software for
> > your own protection.
> 
> Nor do they know about data protection at all. One lawyer once accused
> us of playing games with her because we refused to send sensible data in
> unencrypted email. And to top it all she told us her system was not
> compromised, so there was no need to send encrypted email. 

Thats heavy!

And then there is this proprietary OS which index your HDD
and send the collected data home whic is definitivly an
illegal access to MY sensible data but allowed by law...

Each day the world become more bizzar...

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant


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Re: Need of non-germany-tree in Debian?

[Florian Weimer]

* Moritz Muehlenhoff:

> Plus, last time I checked setting a game on the index was strictly bound
> to specific versions of the game.

This was fixed a couple of years ago.


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Re: Need of non-germany-tree in Debian?

[Holger Levsen]

Hi,

On Sunday 15 July 2007 13:22, Moritz Muehlenhoff wrote:
> But neither of the games on the index (rott, doom, quake2) provide the
> game media, so I don't believe they're affected.

If a game is not rated, it's assumed to be suited for over 18.

(And yeah, that discriminates free software which doesnt have the ressources 
to let games be rated.)


regards,
Holger


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Re: Need of non-germany-tree in Debian?

[Moritz Muehlenhoff]

Alexander Wirt wrote:
>> > Huh?  Distributing computer games without the necessary permission
>> > under applicable youth protection laws is already forbidden.
>> [..]
>> > planetpenguin-racer is affected as well.  It doesn't matter whether
>> > the game is violent or not.  There's only an exception for mostly
>> > educational games.
>> 
>> Wasn't there another exception if the game(s) is(/are) part of some bigger 
>> software bundle, i.e. a linux distribution?
> Of course, as long as not the game itself is the main reason of the
> compilation, for example if its an operating system its legal. This, of
> course, does not count for games that are really forbidden (on the index),
> like doom, rise of the triad or quake. Otherwise I wouldn't be able to
> provide Debian DVDs for events like Linuxtag. 

But neither of the games on the index (rott, doom, quake2) provide the
game media, so I don't believe they're affected.

Plus, last time I checked setting a game on the index was strictly bound
to specific versions of the game. E.g, "Mortal Kombat" was on the index
for all game versions except the one for the Game Boy, whose graphics
apparently weren't troubling enough. I doubt that a Linux port is
explicitly listed.

Cheers,
Moritz


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Re: Need of non-germany-tree in Debian?

[Florian Weimer]

* Holger Levsen:

> Hi,
>
> On Sunday 15 July 2007 01:36, Florian Weimer wrote:
>> Huh?  Distributing computer games without the necessary permission
>> under applicable youth protection laws is already forbidden.
> [..]
>> planetpenguin-racer is affected as well.  It doesn't matter whether
>> the game is violent or not.  There's only an exception for mostly
>> educational games.
>
> Wasn't there another exception if the game(s) is(/are) part of some
> bigger software bundle, i.e. a linux distribution?

I don't think so.  There's no such exception in §12 or §14 JuSchG
(,
).

Re: Need of non-germany-tree in Debian?

[Alexander Wirt]

Holger Levsen schrieb am Sonntag, den 15. Juli 2007:

> Hi,
> 
> On Sunday 15 July 2007 01:36, Florian Weimer wrote:
> > Huh?  Distributing computer games without the necessary permission
> > under applicable youth protection laws is already forbidden.
> [..]
> > planetpenguin-racer is affected as well.  It doesn't matter whether
> > the game is violent or not.  There's only an exception for mostly
> > educational games.
> 
> Wasn't there another exception if the game(s) is(/are) part of some bigger 
> software bundle, i.e. a linux distribution?
Of course, as long as not the game itself is the main reason of the
compilation, for example if its an operating system its legal. This, of
course, does not count for games that are really forbidden (on the index),
like doom, rise of the triad or quake. Otherwise I wouldn't be able to
provide Debian DVDs for events like Linuxtag. 

Best wishes
Alex


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Re: Need of non-germany-tree in Debian?

[Holger Levsen]

Hi,

On Sunday 15 July 2007 01:36, Florian Weimer wrote:
> Huh?  Distributing computer games without the necessary permission
> under applicable youth protection laws is already forbidden.
[..]
> planetpenguin-racer is affected as well.  It doesn't matter whether
> the game is violent or not.  There's only an exception for mostly
> educational games.

Wasn't there another exception if the game(s) is(/are) part of some bigger 
software bundle, i.e. a linux distribution?


regards,
Holger


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Re: Need of non-germany-tree in Debian?

[Florian Weimer]

* Sven Hoexter:

> Florian Weimer wrote:
>
>> * Malte Hahlbeck:
>> 
>>> Today the upper House of the German Parliament (Bundesrat)
>>> decided to declare Security Software like nmap, nessus etc.
>> 
>> nmap (and probably Nessus as well, which is non-free these days
>> anyway) are unlikely to be covered by the new law.  I'm less sure
>> about packages such as john.

> Well the wording of the law is so vague that it needs to be seen
> against whom and what kind of software it will be used. While it
> should have created legal certainty it looks like it's going to be a
> huge mess which has to be cleaned up by judges.

Law tends to be technology-neutral, which has obvious benefits (and
some downsides).  What's causing people headaches is not a
technological weakness, but a legal one ("abstraktes
Gefährdungsdelikt" has tons of unwanted implications).

>> Technically, this is nothing new.  Keep in mind that we haven't got
>> permission to distribute most games in Germany, either.

> This issue might come up again if some plans for a new revision of
> those laws in question would be approved.

Huh?  Distributing computer games without the necessary permission
under applicable youth protection laws is already forbidden.

> And this time it could get interesting to see if someone has the
> will to argue about Q3A based games.

planetpenguin-racer is affected as well.  It doesn't matter whether
the game is violent or not.  There's only an exception for mostly
educational games.

> A security researcher or network admin might even argue that the law
> is against our constitution because it limits his free choice for a
> profession in an over exaggerated way.

Well, a pimp could claim that as well.  Keep in mind that most
security researchers aren't.

Re: Need of non-germany-tree in Debian?

[Malte Hahlbeck]

Michelle Konzack wrote:
> The new german LAW is talking about Software which was build to hack
> sites.  "Security Software like nmap, nessus etc." are not build to
> do illegal hacking.  (Greetings from my Advocat from Offenburg)

But they could be used to prepare an attack. It talks about the software
and not the intention. That's the point.

The definition of the law is vague, so that it has to be judged to get
a "real" usable definition. Your lawyer should read the latest juritstic
comments on that law.
 
> The german Justice can not do anything if I use the tools to secure
> my network.

The text of this new law does not make this clear.

Greetings
MH

> Systemadministrator


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Re: Need of non-germany-tree in Debian?

[Michael Meskes]

On Fri, Jul 13, 2007 at 07:02:03PM +0200, Bernd Zeimetz wrote:
> > Interpretation of that law differs. Ask three lawyers, get five answers.
> >   
> also a lot of lawyers neither know the difference between hacking and
> cracking nor know why you should need to use such 'evil' software for
> your own protection.

Nor do they know about data protection at all. One lawyer once accused
us of playing games with her because we refused to send sensible data in
unencrypted email. And to top it all she told us her system was not
compromised, so there was no need to send encrypted email. 

Michael
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Re: Need of non-germany-tree in Debian?

[Bernd Zeimetz]

>> Sorry, but this is NOT REALY RIGHT!
>>
>> The new german LAW is talking about Software which was build to hack
>> sites.  "Security Software like nmap, nessus etc." are not build to
>> do illegal hacking.  (Greetings from my Advocat from Offenburg)
>> 
>
> Interpretation of that law differs. Ask three lawyers, get five answers.
>   
also a lot of lawyers neither know the difference between hacking and
cracking nor know why you should need to use such 'evil' software for
your own protection.


Cheers,


Bernd


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Re: Need of non-germany-tree in Debian?

[Marc Haber]

On Fri, Jul 13, 2007 at 05:01:03PM +0200, Michelle Konzack wrote:
> Am 2007-07-06 19:26:44, schrieb Malte Hahlbeck:
> > Today the upper House of the German Parliament (Bundesrat)
> > decided to declare Security Software like nmap, nessus etc.
> > illegal in a way that the software itself and not it's
> > criminal use is indictable. That is no Joke. This Law will
> > be active when it is published. That should last a few
> > weeks. 
> > What would be the consequence? Will there be the need of a
> > non-germany-tree in the Debian Repositories? This question
> > is no joke.
> 
> Sorry, but this is NOT REALY RIGHT!
> 
> The new german LAW is talking about Software which was build to hack
> sites.  "Security Software like nmap, nessus etc." are not build to
> do illegal hacking.  (Greetings from my Advocat from Offenburg)

Interpretation of that law differs. Ask three lawyers, get five answers.

Greetings
Marc

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Re: Need of non-germany-tree in Debian?

[Nico Golde]

Hi,
* Stephen Frost <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2007-07-13 18:16]:
> * Nico Golde ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> > Looks like you don't understand the law. There is no 
> > list with tools which met the criteria. But the criteria is
> > that the tool enables or helps you to get access to private 
> > data which matches nmap no matter if you use it for personal 
> > network security or not.
> 
> Yeah, ftp helps you do that too.

And thats not even as dangerous as telnet ;)
Nico
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Re: Need of non-germany-tree in Debian?

[Stephen Frost]

* Nico Golde ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> Looks like you don't understand the law. There is no 
> list with tools which met the criteria. But the criteria is
> that the tool enables or helps you to get access to private 
> data which matches nmap no matter if you use it for personal 
> network security or not.

Yeah, ftp helps you do that too.

Thanks,

Stephen


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Re: Need of non-germany-tree in Debian?

[Nico Golde]

Hi,
* Michelle Konzack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2007-07-13 17:08]:
> Am 2007-07-06 19:26:44, schrieb Malte Hahlbeck:
> > Today the upper House of the German Parliament (Bundesrat)
> > decided to declare Security Software like nmap, nessus etc.
> > illegal in a way that the software itself and not it's
> > criminal use is indictable. That is no Joke. This Law will
> > be active when it is published. That should last a few
> > weeks. 
> > What would be the consequence? Will there be the need of a
> > non-germany-tree in the Debian Repositories? This question
> > is no joke.
> 
> Sorry, but this is NOT REALY RIGHT!
> 
> The new german LAW is talking about Software which was build to hack
> sites.  "Security Software like nmap, nessus etc." are not build to
> do illegal hacking.  (Greetings from my Advocat from Offenburg)
[...] 

Looks like you don't understand the law. There is no 
list with tools which met the criteria. But the criteria is
that the tool enables or helps you to get access to private 
data which matches nmap no matter if you use it for personal 
network security or not.

The law doesn't say anything about that it has to be the 
only purpose of the program to hack private data.
Cheers
Nico
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Re: Need of non-germany-tree in Debian?

[Michelle Konzack]

Am 2007-07-06 19:26:44, schrieb Malte Hahlbeck:
> Today the upper House of the German Parliament (Bundesrat)
> decided to declare Security Software like nmap, nessus etc.
> illegal in a way that the software itself and not it's
> criminal use is indictable. That is no Joke. This Law will
> be active when it is published. That should last a few
> weeks. 
> What would be the consequence? Will there be the need of a
> non-germany-tree in the Debian Repositories? This question
> is no joke.

Sorry, but this is NOT REALY RIGHT!

The new german LAW is talking about Software which was build to hack
sites.  "Security Software like nmap, nessus etc." are not build to
do illegal hacking.  (Greetings from my Advocat from Offenburg)

The german Justice can not do anything if I use the tools to secure
my network.  Since i have had over a longer time heavy DoS attacks
on my Server located in Offenburg/BW/Germany, I am already known to
the Justice and the Justice know, that I use such tools.

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant


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Re: Need of non-germany-tree in Debian?

[Sven Hoexter]

Florian Weimer wrote:

> * Malte Hahlbeck:
> 
>> Today the upper House of the German Parliament (Bundesrat)
>> decided to declare Security Software like nmap, nessus etc.
> 
> nmap (and probably Nessus as well, which is non-free these days
> anyway) are unlikely to be covered by the new law.  I'm less sure
> about packages such as john.
Well the wording of the law is so vague that it needs to be seen against
whom and what kind of software it will be used. While it should have
created legal certainty it looks like it's going to be a huge mess which has
to be cleaned up by judges.


> Technically, this is nothing new.  Keep in mind that we haven't got
> permission to distribute most games in Germany, either.
This issue might come up again if some plans for a new revision of those
laws in question would be approved. And this time it could get interesting
to see if someone has the will to argue about Q3A based games.
Judging from the german description I'd bet that overkill has a good chance
too as a first source of problems and it's not Q3A based.


Sure it would be a sign of protest to move the .de.d.o servers out of
germany but I'm pretty sure that it would not help to resolve the created
mess. It's for sure that it's a risky position for mirror admins to sit and
wait who'll be the first to get sued but I think that's the most reasonable
way to go ATM.

A security researcher or network admin might even argue that the law is
against our constitution because it limits his free choice for a profession
in an over exaggerated way.

Sven


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Re: Need of non-germany-tree in Debian?

[Moritz Muehlenhoff]

Malte Hahlbeck wrote:
> Today the upper House of the German Parliament (Bundesrat)
> decided to declare Security Software like nmap, nessus etc.
> illegal in a way that the software itself and not it's
> criminal use is indictable. That is no Joke. This Law will
> be active when it is published. That should last a few
> weeks. 
>
> What would be the consequence? Will there be the need of a
> non-germany-tree in the Debian Repositories? This question
> is no joke.

Modifying the archive structure for every broken law is not
a viable option. This is mostly a mirror problem, but we need
easy ways to provide mirror operators the means to opt-out content
potentially harmful to a given jurisdiction. 

PS: Funny/scary side aspect: The German minister of justice,
who's behind this law was asked by kid reporters about the
internet; she doesn't even know what a web browser is...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wM1xs1jDcis (German language)
(Use youtube-dl and mplayer to watch this with free software)

Cheers,
Moritz


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Re: Need of non-germany-tree in Debian?

[Florian Weimer]

* Malte Hahlbeck:

> Today the upper House of the German Parliament (Bundesrat)
> decided to declare Security Software like nmap, nessus etc.

nmap (and probably Nessus as well, which is non-free these days
anyway) are unlikely to be covered by the new law.  I'm less sure
about packages such as john.

Technically, this is nothing new.  Keep in mind that we haven't got
permission to distribute most games in Germany, either.


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Re: Need of non-germany-tree in Debian?

[martin f krafft]

On 2007-07-06 17:47, Martin Schulze wrote:
> Debian and Ubuntu should move out of Germany.

What are the other distributions, like Fedora and Gentoo doing about
it?

Also, yes, I agree, at least ftp.de and ftp2.de should move. I can
offer hosting space in .ch, but am unsure about the local admin
situation.

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Re: Need of non-germany-tree in Debian?

[Don Armstrong]

On Sat, 07 Jul 2007, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> On Fri, 06 Jul 2007 19:26:44 +0200, Malte Hahlbeck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:  
> > What would be the consequence? Will there be the
> > need of a non-germany-tree in the Debian Repositories?
> 
>  I think this should only affect german mirrors, which could filter
>  out those packages.

It's possible that a set of redirect rules to US (or other non-german
mirrors) for these packages would also resolve the issue. [I'm not
sure at all if this would have to be coupled with removing the
packages from the german mirrors; probably FSFE knows attorneys in
germany who would be capable of resolving these issues.]


Don Armstrong

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Re: Need of non-germany-tree in Debian?

[Manoj Srivastava]

On Fri, 06 Jul 2007 19:26:44 +0200, Malte Hahlbeck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: 

> What would be the consequence? Will there be the
> need of a non-germany-tree in the Debian Repositories?

I think this should only affect german mirrors, which could
 filter out those packages. The reason we needed a non-us machine was
 that master lives in the US, and has to adhere to US law; and so a
 simple filter would not have worked.

While this is an unfortunate development, I do not think it
 requires the formulation of a  non-german hierarchy.

manoj
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at you blankly and say 'Hey, I got those with the system, *for
free*'. -- Linus Torvalds
Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
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Re: Need of non-germany-tree in Debian?

[Michael Kesper]

Hi,

Am Freitag, den 06.07.2007, 19:26 +0200 schrieb Malte Hahlbeck:
> Today the upper House of the German Parliament (Bundesrat)
> decided to declare Security Software like nmap, nessus etc.
> illegal in a way that the software itself and not it's
> criminal use is indictable. 

A (german) link to this info is here:
http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/92334

Best wishes
Michael Kesper
-- 
Join the Fellowship of FSFE and protect your freedom!
http://www.fsfe.org/en


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Re: Need of non-germany-tree in Debian?

[Martin Schulze]

Malte Hahlbeck wrote:
> Today the upper House of the German Parliament (Bundesrat)
> decided to declare Security Software like nmap, nessus etc.
> illegal in a way that the software itself and not it's
> criminal use is indictable. That is no Joke. This Law will
> be active when it is published. That should last a few
> weeks. 
> What would be the consequence? Will there be the need of a
> non-germany-tree in the Debian Repositories? This question
> is no joke.

Debian and Ubuntu should move out of Germany.

Regards,

Joey

-- 
Whenever you meet yourself you're in a time loop or in front of a mirror.


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Need of non-germany-tree in Debian?

[Malte Hahlbeck]

Today the upper House of the German Parliament (Bundesrat)
decided to declare Security Software like nmap, nessus etc.
illegal in a way that the software itself and not it's
criminal use is indictable. That is no Joke. This Law will
be active when it is published. That should last a few
weeks. 
What would be the consequence? Will there be the need of a
non-germany-tree in the Debian Repositories? This question
is no joke.

Regards
Malte Hahlbeck


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