Re: Opera in your repos

[Matthew Johnson]

On Mon Aug 10 21:08, Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> 
> >> I think that's just you.  There has been no decision by the project to
> >> change the license requirements for non-free, and if the ftp masters have
> >> decided this, they haven't disclosed it anywhere appropriate.
> > Indeed, last time I checked, the requirement was that Debian is allowed
> > to redistribute the stuff, which kind of makes sense ;)
> 
> Its still that. Allowing people to use it is a nice thing, but strictly
> speaking its not needed for it.

True, but *I*'d rather not upload it if people using Debian can't use it.

Matt

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Matthew Johnson


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Re: Opera in your repos

[Joerg Jaspert]

>> I think that's just you.  There has been no decision by the project to
>> change the license requirements for non-free, and if the ftp masters have
>> decided this, they haven't disclosed it anywhere appropriate.
> Indeed, last time I checked, the requirement was that Debian is allowed
> to redistribute the stuff, which kind of makes sense ;)

Its still that. Allowing people to use it is a nice thing, but strictly
speaking its not needed for it.

-- 
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 man
 the AMD64 camp is not helped by the list of people supporting it
 when nerode is on your side, you know you're doing something wrong


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Re: Opera in your repos

[Pierre Habouzit]

On Sun, Aug 09, 2009 at 05:39:43PM -0700, Steve Langasek wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 08, 2009 at 01:59:55PM +0200, Peter Palfrader wrote:
> > > We need the redistribution bit, I don't think we need it to be allowed
> > > to be used by all users.  Non-commercial is fine in non-free, or at
> > > least was, last time I checked.
> 
> > I wouldn't be surprised if our requirements have increased even in that
> > regard in recent years.
> 
> > At least nowadays I mostly expect stuff that has weird licenses about
> > modification and following redistribution in non-free.  I hardly expect
> > stuff that one is not even allowed to use.  But maybe that's just me. :)
> 
> I think that's just you.  There has been no decision by the project to
> change the license requirements for non-free, and if the ftp masters have
> decided this, they haven't disclosed it anywhere appropriate.

Indeed, last time I checked, the requirement was that Debian is allowed
to redistribute the stuff, which kind of makes sense ;)
-- 
Intersec 
Pierre Habouzit 
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Re: Opera in your repos

[Steve Langasek]

On Sat, Aug 08, 2009 at 01:59:55PM +0200, Peter Palfrader wrote:
> > We need the redistribution bit, I don't think we need it to be allowed
> > to be used by all users.  Non-commercial is fine in non-free, or at
> > least was, last time I checked.

> I wouldn't be surprised if our requirements have increased even in that
> regard in recent years.

> At least nowadays I mostly expect stuff that has weird licenses about
> modification and following redistribution in non-free.  I hardly expect
> stuff that one is not even allowed to use.  But maybe that's just me. :)

I think that's just you.  There has been no decision by the project to
change the license requirements for non-free, and if the ftp masters have
decided this, they haven't disclosed it anywhere appropriate.

-- 
Steve Langasek   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/
slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org


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Re: Opera in your repos

[Peter Palfrader]

On Sat, 08 Aug 2009, Tollef Fog Heen wrote:

> ]] Matthew Johnson 
> 
> | We would need a licence which allowed it to be redistributed by Debian
> | and used by all of our users. The reference for this is Debian Policy
> | 2.2.3 and 2.3:
> 
> We need the redistribution bit, I don't think we need it to be allowed
> to be used by all users.  Non-commercial is fine in non-free, or at
> least was, last time I checked.

I wouldn't be surprised if our requirements have increased even in that
regard in recent years.

At least nowadays I mostly expect stuff that has weird licenses about
modification and following redistribution in non-free.  I hardly expect
stuff that one is not even allowed to use.  But maybe that's just me. :)

Cheers,
-- 
   |  .''`.  ** Debian GNU/Linux **
  Peter Palfrader  | : :' :  The  universal
 http://www.palfrader.org/ | `. `'  Operating System
   |   `-http://www.debian.org/


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Re: Opera in your repos

[Tollef Fog Heen]

]] Matthew Johnson 

| We would need a licence which allowed it to be redistributed by Debian
| and used by all of our users. The reference for this is Debian Policy
| 2.2.3 and 2.3:

We need the redistribution bit, I don't think we need it to be allowed
to be used by all users.  Non-commercial is fine in non-free, or at
least was, last time I checked.

-- 
Tollef Fog Heen
UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are


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Re: Opera in your repos

[Michael Banck]

On Wed, Aug 05, 2009 at 11:44:00PM +0200, Ilya Shpan'kov wrote:
> I will inform our lawers about your opinion. Really, it have a very big  
> sense.
>
> I can say, that here in Opera we had discussions about being Free 
> Software every year. Unfortunately, we have a lot of agreements with 
> other companies which use Opera at their devices - by this case we still 
> can't to be a real free Software.

If you mean you are using 3rd party code which is licensed to you under
proprietary terms - there is not much you can do I guess.

If you mean you and your partners rely on commercial exploitation of
(some of) the features of Opera - there is always the possibility of
dual-licensing the code to GPL/Proprietary together with forced
copyright assignments (so Opera retains control of the general direction
and can relicense/exploit the code).  This way, no other company can
exploit the code in a proprietary way (or has to disclose their
modifications) while Opera still can (as the code owner through the
alternative proprietary license).

Whether you attract a lot of outside developers this way (due to truely
free alternatives like Webkit and Gecko) is a different matter, of
course.


regards,

Michael


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Re: Opera in your repos

[Steffen Moeller]

Dear Ilya,

Ilya Shpan'kov wrote:

> Last 7 years I use GNU/Linux and know that, for example, in Russia the
> Opera browser is very popular in GNU/Linux Community. Unfortunately, not
> always I can see this browser in the non-free repos. Well, there is a
> question: whether Opera is included to your distro and if not - how we can
> fix this problem? We are ready for any discussions, technical help or
> agreement, if necessary.

have many thanks for your initiative. As an informal start, you might want 
improve
http://wiki.debian.org/Opera to some degree.

"We" had previous exchanges of thoughts in the past
2001 http://www.mail-archive.com/debian-...@lists.debian.org/msg08128.html
2007 http://www.mail-archive.com/debian-de...@lists.debian.org/msg251312.html

the thread on -devel was rather excellent.

Summarising from what I understood, the major advantage over a deeper 
integration of your
binaries with Debian would be in a leaner product, i.e. an Opera binary that 
dynamically
links to as many Debian packages already in the system (and possibly already in 
memory) as
possible. Debian would then profit from an increased number of libraries that 
your product
is likely to use and an increased scrutiny of its existing packages. And so 
would the
upstream authors of those packages.

For that approach to be successful, you would need to perceive Debian as a 
regular part of
your production environment. A change of the soname of some library would 
require a
renewed compilation of your binaries. This might work, but only with a very 
close coupling
of the binary's uploader with your source code. Consequently, the uploader, a 
Debian
developer, should be part of your team. Since you are apparently based in Oslo, 
I suggest
you to talk back to Petter (https://nm.debian.org/gpg_offer.php) to help with 
some initial
steps towards Debian packaging and guide you and your team towards DD status - 
and/or you
might want to hire him (or another DD somewhere in the world).

A plan B might be to contact Canonical and have that integration process 
outsourced, so
you would end up in Ubuntu directly. As a good netizen I hope you to approach 
the first
route, via Debian to Ubuntu, although it is slightly more painful as a start as 
it seems.
But once that it becomes clear to the other DDs that Opera really cares about 
our
distribution, they (or the vast majority of them) will also tolerate the Opera 
binaries in
non-free.

All the best, hoping for lots of contributions from the other side of the 
Baltic Sea

Steffen





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Re: Opera in your repos

[Matthew Johnson]

On Wed Aug 05 19:13, Santiago Vila wrote:
> > Last 7 years I use GNU/Linux and know that, for example, in Russia the
> > Opera browser is very popular in GNU/Linux Community. Unfortunately, not
> > always I can see this browser in the non-free repos. Well, there is a
> > question: whether Opera is included to your distro and if not - how we can
> > fix this problem? We are ready for any discussions, technical help or
> > agreement, if necessary.
> 
> As explained by Ana, Debian is about making a free operating system,
> so we usually try to remove software from non-free when we have free
> alternatives, not add more.

That said, I am (I know, disown me now) a big Opera user, I think it's
by far the best browser and it's a shame it's not Free software. I would
be prepared to maintain it in non-free, however Santiago's caveats all
apply. We would need a licence which allowed it to be redistributed by
Debian and used by all of our users. The reference for this is Debian
Policy 2.2.3 and 2.3:

http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-archive.html#s-non-free

Matt

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Matthew Johnson


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Re: Opera in your repos

[Bernd Zeimetz]

Ilya Shpan'kov wrote:
> Thanks, Santiago!
> 
> I will inform our lawers about your opinion. Really, it have a very big
> sense.
> 
> I can say, that here in Opera we had discussions about being Free
> Software every year. Unfortunately, we have a lot of agreements with
> other companies which use Opera at their devices - by this case we still
> can't to be a real free Software.

It would be *really* amazing if Opera would become free software. The browser is
really awesome, but as it is not open-source software, I rarely use it.

-- 
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Re: Opera in your repos

[Ilya Shpan'kov]

Thanks, Santiago!

I will inform our lawers about your opinion. Really, it have a very big  
sense.


I can say, that here in Opera we had discussions about being Free Software  
every year. Unfortunately, we have a lot of agreements with other  
companies which use Opera at their devices - by this case we still can't  
to be a real free Software.


But future is constantly changing and who know - maybe we will be Free too  
;)


В письме от Wed, 05 Aug 2009 19:13:55 +0200, Santiago Vila  
 сообщал:



On Wed, 5 Aug 2009, Ilya Shpan'kov wrote:


Hi,

I work in Opera Software - yes, we make a proprietary browser ;)

Last 7 years I use GNU/Linux and know that, for example, in Russia the
Opera browser is very popular in GNU/Linux Community. Unfortunately, not
always I can see this browser in the non-free repos. Well, there is a
question: whether Opera is included to your distro and if not - how we  
can

fix this problem? We are ready for any discussions, technical help or
agreement, if necessary.


As explained by Ana, Debian is about making a free operating system,
so we usually try to remove software from non-free when we have free
alternatives, not add more.

Anyway, I'll give you a more technical answer.

I see at least two problems in putting Opera in non-free:

First one, the End User License Agreement does not say anything about
redistribution. It is allowed at all? Under which conditions? Do those
conditions last forever, or may Opera Software terminate them at their
wish? Bear in mind that there are sites like snapshot.debian.net that
would copy each and every upload of opera from non-free to be archived
forever. If we can't do that it would probably not worth the effort.

The second problem I see is the discrimination against some
users. From the LICENSE text:

 You are entitled to use the Software on all personal computers
 (laptops/desktops). "Use" means loaded in temporary memory or
 permanent storage on the computer.

 You may not use the Software on non-PC products, devices, or embedded
 in any other product, including, but not limited to, mobile devices,
 internet appliances, set top boxes (STB), handhelds, PDAs, phones, web
 pads, tablets, game consoles, TVs, gaming machines, home automation
 systems, or any other consumer electronics devices or
 mobile/cable/satellite/television or closed system based service.

Well, the fact is that Debian aims to run on all those devices too.

Putting opera.deb in non-free would be deceptive to those users, as
most people assume that if something is in non-free, then the software
might be proprietary but at least use is not restricted, which would
not be the case here.

As Debian is about creating a free operating system, we don't have any
system or procedure to force people to accept licenses before dowloading
packages. With current tools, whoever bothers to package Opera for
non-free would probably add a debconf question in the line of "Are you
using an ordinary PC (laptop/desktop) or you are using something else?".

If I had to answer questions like that after installing something, I
am not sure I would be glad of doing so from a Debian server.

Thanks.




--
Best regards,

Ilya Shpan'kov
Community Outreach Manager for Russia
Opera Software ASA

Mobile: +47 46351421
Web-site: http://my.opera.com/IlyaShpankov/
Skype: shpankov


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Re: Opera in your repos

[Ana Guerrero]

On Wed, Aug 05, 2009 at 07:10:48PM +0200, Cyril Brulebois wrote:
> (Beware sarcasm tags might be missing.)
> 
> Ana Guerrero  (05/08/2009):
> > Even in the case you release the opera code with a license that allow
> > distributing opera in non-free, there is not much point on
> > distributing it when we already have _totally free_ browsers.
> 
> There is: Linux is about Choice!
>

Like choosing not to give support to propietary stuff ? :D

Ana



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Re: Opera in your repos

[Santiago Vila]

On Wed, 5 Aug 2009, Ilya Shpan'kov wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I work in Opera Software - yes, we make a proprietary browser ;)
> 
> Last 7 years I use GNU/Linux and know that, for example, in Russia the
> Opera browser is very popular in GNU/Linux Community. Unfortunately, not
> always I can see this browser in the non-free repos. Well, there is a
> question: whether Opera is included to your distro and if not - how we can
> fix this problem? We are ready for any discussions, technical help or
> agreement, if necessary.

As explained by Ana, Debian is about making a free operating system,
so we usually try to remove software from non-free when we have free
alternatives, not add more.

Anyway, I'll give you a more technical answer.

I see at least two problems in putting Opera in non-free:

First one, the End User License Agreement does not say anything about
redistribution. It is allowed at all? Under which conditions? Do those
conditions last forever, or may Opera Software terminate them at their
wish? Bear in mind that there are sites like snapshot.debian.net that
would copy each and every upload of opera from non-free to be archived
forever. If we can't do that it would probably not worth the effort.

The second problem I see is the discrimination against some
users. From the LICENSE text:

 You are entitled to use the Software on all personal computers
 (laptops/desktops). "Use" means loaded in temporary memory or
 permanent storage on the computer.

 You may not use the Software on non-PC products, devices, or embedded
 in any other product, including, but not limited to, mobile devices,
 internet appliances, set top boxes (STB), handhelds, PDAs, phones, web
 pads, tablets, game consoles, TVs, gaming machines, home automation
 systems, or any other consumer electronics devices or
 mobile/cable/satellite/television or closed system based service.

Well, the fact is that Debian aims to run on all those devices too.

Putting opera.deb in non-free would be deceptive to those users, as
most people assume that if something is in non-free, then the software
might be proprietary but at least use is not restricted, which would
not be the case here.

As Debian is about creating a free operating system, we don't have any
system or procedure to force people to accept licenses before dowloading
packages. With current tools, whoever bothers to package Opera for
non-free would probably add a debconf question in the line of "Are you
using an ordinary PC (laptop/desktop) or you are using something else?".

If I had to answer questions like that after installing something, I
am not sure I would be glad of doing so from a Debian server.

Thanks.


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Re: Opera in your repos

[Cyril Brulebois]

(Beware sarcasm tags might be missing.)

Ana Guerrero  (05/08/2009):
> Even in the case you release the opera code with a license that allow
> distributing opera in non-free, there is not much point on
> distributing it when we already have _totally free_ browsers.

There is: Linux is about Choice!

Mraw,
KiBi.


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Re: Opera in your repos

[Ana Guerrero]

On Wed, Aug 05, 2009 at 05:11:12PM +0200, Ilya Shpan'kov wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I work in Opera Software - yes, we make a proprietary browser ;)
> 
> Last 7 years I use GNU/Linux and know that, for example, in Russia the
> Opera browser is very popular in GNU/Linux Community. Unfortunately, not
> always I can see this browser in the non-free repos. Well, there is a
> question: whether Opera is included to your distro and if not - how we can
> fix this problem? We are ready for any discussions, technical help or
> agreement, if necessary.
> 
> Thanks in advance,
>

Please, learn about Debian philosophy and you will get the answer to
your question. Read from here:
http://www.debian.org/ all the "about" part.

Also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debian will give you a nice overview.

Even in the case you release the opera code with a license that allow 
distributing opera in non-free, there is not much point on distributing it
when we already have _totally free_ browsers.

Ana


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Opera in your repos

[Ilya Shpan'kov]

Hi,

I work in Opera Software - yes, we make a proprietary browser ;)

Last 7 years I use GNU/Linux and know that, for example, in Russia the
Opera browser is very popular in GNU/Linux Community. Unfortunately, not
always I can see this browser in the non-free repos. Well, there is a
question: whether Opera is included to your distro and if not - how we can
fix this problem? We are ready for any discussions, technical help or
agreement, if necessary.

Thanks in advance,

--
Best regards,

Ilya Shpan'kov
Community Outreach Manager for Russia
Opera Software ASA

Mobile: +47 46351421
Web-site: http://my.opera.com/IlyaShpankov/
Skype: shpankov


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