Re: DISS project hosting (was: contacting Debian is too easy to get wrong)
@ Butterfly, I find it rather ironic that at the exact moment I was importing the project to GitLab I get a message in the development channel from my bot saying you starred the Github repository, only to come into my gmail and notify Ben of the change and I see you ask this within seconds of me posting that I did already import the project to https://git.fosscommunity.in/kathryntolsen/diss if you're gonna read my mind you might want to update your protocol/parser. :P I'm still changing and updating links. I'm gonna leave the GitHub account open and just point it at GitLab, since there is a much larger community on GitHub, and many people already following. We'll just use GitLab for future updates and I'll have to modify my IRC bot to handle the webhooks from GitLab. Seems rather trivial since the API is so similar. *crosses fingers* On Sun, Oct 22, 2017 at 1:03 PM, Cindy-Sue Causey wrote: > On 10/22/17, Katy Tolsen <2ndlifek...@gmail.com> wrote: > > On 21-Oct-2017 Ben Finney Wrote: > > > >>In its early days, can I convince you to move the project away from > >>the proprietary GitHub silo? > > > > Absolutely, and I see these as legitimate concerns. I had quite a hard > > time getting things like GitHub webhooks to post to the channel and > > I am not a fan of GitHub already. I posted to GitHub and SourceForge > > just to get it out there and have a place to keep things. I have no > > experience with these things and would prefer someone who did take > > lead on this. > > > > I am not familiar with any of these tools so I have no preference. > > I was just trying to find a place to outline the ideas well enough to > > allow people to wrap their minds around a vision I developed over 15 > > years of using and supporting Debian and seeing various issues. > > > > As you can see the wiki isn't all that detailed just an attempt to break > > things down so people can flesh out the specifics of an API.. and we > > have no actual code yet this first week has just been publicizing the > > idea, garnering support for development and noodling design ideas. > > > > I'm totally open on everything right now the only things I'm somewhat > firm > > on is that this needs to be done, and that it should include components > > that integrate directly into the OS, wrap our existing support resources > > without people who already know how they work having to change the way > > they do things, and that Python should be the language for development > > simply because not only does it seem most well suited to the task for > > making development go smoothly. > > > > I can either take a similarly inexperienced crack at moving/recreating > the > > project elsewhere or someone can just take lead and create a new home > > themselves and I can update the existing information pointing to the > > new location. It really doesn't matter to me. I have little more than a > > vision, > > experience with using and supporting Debian, and a working but rather > > inexperienced understanding of Python. I will either have to learn as I > go > > or will only be slowing the project down if I remain the leader of this > > show. > > > > On Sat, Oct 21, 2017 at 10:46 PM, Ben Finney wrote: > > > >> On 21-Oct-2017, Katy Tolsen wrote: > >> > I think the project I've started may be the answer to this as well > >> > as many other support issues that plague our system. > >> > >> Thank you for starting this project. > >> > >> > However we need a lot of help to make this happen. > >> > >> Agreed. > >> > >> In its early days, can I convince you to move the project away from > >> the proprietary GitHub silo? That will limit the participation from > >> people who care about keeping their contributions on free platforms > >> https://mako.cc/writing/hill-free_tools.html>. > >> > >> There is currently a transition within the official Debian > >> infrastructure for VCS hosting, so it's not *quite* feasible for me to > >> point you to an “official” Debian VCS host. > >> > >> In the meantime, I would recommend using the free-software platforms > >> Launchpad https://launchpad.net/> or a GitLab instance > >> https://gitlab.debian.net/>, while it is easy to migrate the > >> project away from a proprietary silo. > > > @ Ben, #ThankYou for saying what you did how you did. I knew there is > ongoing objection to something about Github. Your explanation is > possibly the first I've fully understood. I've had an account for some > 9 years and *just* started using it maybe 3 months ago in part due to > not having knowledge of projects housed elsewhere. :) > > > >> > We really need help on this project especially from at least one > >> > DM/DD to make it a reality. Right now we're just planning it all > >> > out, and all input is welcome. > >> > >> I would love to contribute – I have the Python skills you discuss, and > >> recognise the problem you're solving – once the project is on a > >> free-software platform where I can in good conscience maintain an > >> account. > > >
Re: DISS project hosting (was: contacting Debian is too easy to get wrong)
On 10/22/17, Katy Tolsen <2ndlifek...@gmail.com> wrote: > On 21-Oct-2017 Ben Finney Wrote: > >>In its early days, can I convince you to move the project away from >>the proprietary GitHub silo? > > Absolutely, and I see these as legitimate concerns. I had quite a hard > time getting things like GitHub webhooks to post to the channel and > I am not a fan of GitHub already. I posted to GitHub and SourceForge > just to get it out there and have a place to keep things. I have no > experience with these things and would prefer someone who did take > lead on this. > > I am not familiar with any of these tools so I have no preference. > I was just trying to find a place to outline the ideas well enough to > allow people to wrap their minds around a vision I developed over 15 > years of using and supporting Debian and seeing various issues. > > As you can see the wiki isn't all that detailed just an attempt to break > things down so people can flesh out the specifics of an API.. and we > have no actual code yet this first week has just been publicizing the > idea, garnering support for development and noodling design ideas. > > I'm totally open on everything right now the only things I'm somewhat firm > on is that this needs to be done, and that it should include components > that integrate directly into the OS, wrap our existing support resources > without people who already know how they work having to change the way > they do things, and that Python should be the language for development > simply because not only does it seem most well suited to the task for > making development go smoothly. > > I can either take a similarly inexperienced crack at moving/recreating the > project elsewhere or someone can just take lead and create a new home > themselves and I can update the existing information pointing to the > new location. It really doesn't matter to me. I have little more than a > vision, > experience with using and supporting Debian, and a working but rather > inexperienced understanding of Python. I will either have to learn as I go > or will only be slowing the project down if I remain the leader of this > show. > > On Sat, Oct 21, 2017 at 10:46 PM, Ben Finney wrote: > >> On 21-Oct-2017, Katy Tolsen wrote: >> > I think the project I've started may be the answer to this as well >> > as many other support issues that plague our system. >> >> Thank you for starting this project. >> >> > However we need a lot of help to make this happen. >> >> Agreed. >> >> In its early days, can I convince you to move the project away from >> the proprietary GitHub silo? That will limit the participation from >> people who care about keeping their contributions on free platforms >> https://mako.cc/writing/hill-free_tools.html>. >> >> There is currently a transition within the official Debian >> infrastructure for VCS hosting, so it's not *quite* feasible for me to >> point you to an “official” Debian VCS host. >> >> In the meantime, I would recommend using the free-software platforms >> Launchpad https://launchpad.net/> or a GitLab instance >> https://gitlab.debian.net/>, while it is easy to migrate the >> project away from a proprietary silo. @ Ben, #ThankYou for saying what you did how you did. I knew there is ongoing objection to something about Github. Your explanation is possibly the first I've fully understood. I've had an account for some 9 years and *just* started using it maybe 3 months ago in part due to not having knowledge of projects housed elsewhere. :) >> > We really need help on this project especially from at least one >> > DM/DD to make it a reality. Right now we're just planning it all >> > out, and all input is welcome. >> >> I would love to contribute – I have the Python skills you discuss, and >> recognise the problem you're solving – once the project is on a >> free-software platform where I can in good conscience maintain an >> account. @ Katy.. Have you created an account that can be followed on either of Ben's other suggestions? At my level of cognition, my primary interest for now would be to help share knowledge of the project's existence where appropriate to do so. Who knows, though, maybe something will finally click this time thanks to watching it grow from the ground up. :) Cindy :) -- Cindy-Sue Causey Talking Rock, Pickens County, Georgia, USA * runs with duct tape *
Re: DISS project hosting (was: contacting Debian is too easy to get wrong)
On 21-Oct-2017 Ben Finney wrote: > I would love to contribute – I have the Python skills you discuss, and > recognise the problem you're solving – once the project is on a > free-software platform where I can in good conscience maintain an > account. I've imported the project to gitlab.debian.net, https://git.fosscommunity.in/kathryntolsen/diss it was actually quite painless and seemed to mirror the wiki and all. On Sat, Oct 21, 2017 at 10:46 PM, Ben Finney wrote: > On 21-Oct-2017, Katy Tolsen wrote: > > I think the project I've started may be the answer to this as well > > as many other support issues that plague our system. > > Thank you for starting this project. > > > However we need a lot of help to make this happen. > > Agreed. > > In its early days, can I convince you to move the project away from > the proprietary GitHub silo? That will limit the participation from > people who care about keeping their contributions on free platforms > https://mako.cc/writing/hill-free_tools.html>. > > There is currently a transition within the official Debian > infrastructure for VCS hosting, so it's not *quite* feasible for me to > point you to an “official” Debian VCS host. > > In the meantime, I would recommend using the free-software platforms > Launchpad https://launchpad.net/> or a GitLab instance > https://gitlab.debian.net/>, while it is easy to migrate the > project away from a proprietary silo. > > > We really need help on this project especially from at least one > > DM/DD to make it a reality. Right now we're just planning it all > > out, and all input is welcome. > > I would love to contribute – I have the Python skills you discuss, and > recognise the problem you're solving – once the project is on a > free-software platform where I can in good conscience maintain an > account. > > -- > \ “What we usually pray to God is not that His will be done, but | > `\ that He approve ours.” —Helga Bergold Gross | > _o__) | > Ben Finney >
Re: DISS project hosting (was: contacting Debian is too easy to get wrong)
On 21-Oct-2017 Ben Finney Wrote: >In its early days, can I convince you to move the project away from >the proprietary GitHub silo? Absolutely, and I see these as legitimate concerns. I had quite a hard time getting things like GitHub webhooks to post to the channel and I am not a fan of GitHub already. I posted to GitHub and SourceForge just to get it out there and have a place to keep things. I have no experience with these things and would prefer someone who did take lead on this. I am not familiar with any of these tools so I have no preference. I was just trying to find a place to outline the ideas well enough to allow people to wrap their minds around a vision I developed over 15 years of using and supporting Debian and seeing various issues. As you can see the wiki isn't all that detailed just an attempt to break things down so people can flesh out the specifics of an API.. and we have no actual code yet this first week has just been publicizing the idea, garnering support for development and noodling design ideas. I'm totally open on everything right now the only things I'm somewhat firm on is that this needs to be done, and that it should include components that integrate directly into the OS, wrap our existing support resources without people who already know how they work having to change the way they do things, and that Python should be the language for development simply because not only does it seem most well suited to the task for making development go smoothly. I can either take a similarly inexperienced crack at moving/recreating the project elsewhere or someone can just take lead and create a new home themselves and I can update the existing information pointing to the new location. It really doesn't matter to me. I have little more than a vision, experience with using and supporting Debian, and a working but rather inexperienced understanding of Python. I will either have to learn as I go or will only be slowing the project down if I remain the leader of this show. On Sat, Oct 21, 2017 at 10:46 PM, Ben Finney wrote: > On 21-Oct-2017, Katy Tolsen wrote: > > I think the project I've started may be the answer to this as well > > as many other support issues that plague our system. > > Thank you for starting this project. > > > However we need a lot of help to make this happen. > > Agreed. > > In its early days, can I convince you to move the project away from > the proprietary GitHub silo? That will limit the participation from > people who care about keeping their contributions on free platforms > https://mako.cc/writing/hill-free_tools.html>. > > There is currently a transition within the official Debian > infrastructure for VCS hosting, so it's not *quite* feasible for me to > point you to an “official” Debian VCS host. > > In the meantime, I would recommend using the free-software platforms > Launchpad https://launchpad.net/> or a GitLab instance > https://gitlab.debian.net/>, while it is easy to migrate the > project away from a proprietary silo. > > > We really need help on this project especially from at least one > > DM/DD to make it a reality. Right now we're just planning it all > > out, and all input is welcome. > > I would love to contribute – I have the Python skills you discuss, and > recognise the problem you're solving – once the project is on a > free-software platform where I can in good conscience maintain an > account. > > -- > \ “What we usually pray to God is not that His will be done, but | > `\ that He approve ours.” —Helga Bergold Gross | > _o__) | > Ben Finney >
DISS project hosting (was: contacting Debian is too easy to get wrong)
On 21-Oct-2017, Katy Tolsen wrote: > I think the project I've started may be the answer to this as well > as many other support issues that plague our system. Thank you for starting this project. > However we need a lot of help to make this happen. Agreed. In its early days, can I convince you to move the project away from the proprietary GitHub silo? That will limit the participation from people who care about keeping their contributions on free platforms https://mako.cc/writing/hill-free_tools.html>. There is currently a transition within the official Debian infrastructure for VCS hosting, so it's not *quite* feasible for me to point you to an “official” Debian VCS host. In the meantime, I would recommend using the free-software platforms Launchpad https://launchpad.net/> or a GitLab instance https://gitlab.debian.net/>, while it is easy to migrate the project away from a proprietary silo. > We really need help on this project especially from at least one > DM/DD to make it a reality. Right now we're just planning it all > out, and all input is welcome. I would love to contribute – I have the Python skills you discuss, and recognise the problem you're solving – once the project is on a free-software platform where I can in good conscience maintain an account. -- \ “What we usually pray to God is not that His will be done, but | `\ that He approve ours.” —Helga Bergold Gross | _o__) | Ben Finney signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Re: contacting Debian is too easy to get wrong
Paul Wise writes: Ben Finney writes: This causes various problems, including: I agree with your assessment of the problems. Create a new contact.debian.org service to help people find the right contact for their queries before they make contact. It seems to me that this would add another place for people to direct their questions, without addressing the problem of finding the right contact point to begin with. In other words: What's to stop ‘contacts.debian.org’ from becoming yet another item that comes up in search results, maybe discovered and maybe not? How will that become the one obvious place for people to ask? I think the project I've started may be the answer to this as well as many other support issues that plague our system. https://kathryntolsen.github.com/diss/ However we need a lot of help to make this happen. The problem is as you so well pointed out that users don't know where to look, and ultimately the one place they will know to look is right on their system. We really need help on this project especially from at least one DM/DD to make it a reality. Right now we're just planning it all out, and all input is welcome. I put a rough skeleton of components on our wiki and plan to make some pages listing all sorts of issues developers, supporters, and users alike have identified with our support systems, so that we can address them. I've already made Lamby aware of this project, and Pabs turned me on to this thread, I see Dondelelcaro has chimed in as well, and his ideas are a great interim solution with less effort than what I have in mind, but its not like any of my other naysayers telling me to go improve the Debian Wiki and such, the end-all solution that integrates all our support efforts and bridges the gap of experience and knowledge between developers, users, and supporters alike. If you folks see the potential of what I'm trying to do here, please at the very least lend me your experience in the form of some feedback, design ideas, or if nothing else let me know I can count on you guys to help sponsor this when it comes time we have something ready to go. Also, please forgive me if I sent this reply wrong I haven't used the mailing lists in over a decade and I wasn't sure how to reply to an old thread from gmail. :P
Re: contacting Debian is too easy to get wrong
On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 5:23 PM, Zlatan Todoric wrote: > So we admit that we have this places but we just want to pile more > places so people can find thing. Why not just finally sit down, remove > our head from hackerish thinking and say - our landing page (debian.org) > is a disservice to community and we either work on that or don't work on > that - someone needs to research the usability. We are tons of > information, which really is great but if people need to read through > it, and jump around to come to their answer/solution [...] > This guy made an informal analysis about how the debian web could be improved in 2015 [0] Not saying you should watch the 2h video, just to note that there is interest and that many people see it too The task is daunting tho. Unifying the interface and the expectations of the old with the new. I wouldnt know where to start [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Kh6nwrR1hA
Re: contacting Debian is too easy to get wrong
Hello,
On Tue, 2017-03-21 at 16:24 -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Ian Jackson writes:
> > Ritesh Raj Sarraf writes ("Re: contacting Debian is too easy to get wrong"):
> > > When a user asks for a question, most usually end up on a web
> > > forum. Developers mostly prefer monitoring hand-picked mailing lists
> > > only. That's where the disconnect is, in my opinion.
> > > What we need is to relate these interfaces to one another.
> > I think the problem with user questions is even worse than that.
> > Many developers don't actually want to spend much (or any) time
> > answering user questions. Partly for bad reasons; but also for the
> > very good reason that it doesn't scale.
>
> I was about to follow up to make this point, but Ian beat me to it.
>
> When I had lots of time to spend on Debian, I would occasionally get some
> satisfaction out of helping a user debug some sort of general issue with
> Debian on their system, or thinking through an odd use case for a package
> to find some solution, but that sort of thing usually takes quite a lot of
> time and back and forth, and it's often not high-leverage in the sense
> that an equal amount of time put into packaging a new upstream release or
> fixing a known bug will improve more things for more people. As I've had
> to cut back on the number of hours I spend on Debian, I gravitate towards
> higher-leverage activities.
>
Maybe it gave the impression that maintainers would be obligated to respond to
such questions (like bug reports). No, that is not what I meant.
Let's take some topic.
* systemd
* MACs (SELinux, AppArmor)
Some are complex and some are fairly new. I propose the assumption that
maintainers are some of the best contacts about a software's state, and its
integration in Debian. Hence, it is wiser to have a way to keep them informed of
users' questions, provided the maintainers have opted in.
Questions like:
* Is Debian's SELinux well integrated with (all) the packages provided in
Stretch.
* There's a new software that I recently picked up, chrome-gnome-shell. Is
Debian's chrome-gnome-shell supported with Google Chrome in Debian.
Then, there's the other use case that may appeal to DDs too. I have an interest
in systemd. But neither do I maintain it, nor do I want to follow its package
maintenance in Debian. I am only interested in its usage and bug reports.
So what we have today:
* pkg-systmed: More about maintenance of the package. Irrelevant to a user's
need and is high volume.
* per package BTS: This actually is good in Debian today. For many packages that
I care of, I go and manually subscribe to its BTS. This gives me a subset of the
information, on the kind of issues seen in real world.
* Join all relevant packaging teams: *This* does not scale either.
With a multi-directional "Question Tracking System", all interested individuals
could add themselves to topic of their interest.
Take above example.
1 I'd subscribe to QTS for packages systemd and selinux
2 A user files a question through the web.
3 I get the question in my mailbox
4a Boring question. Ignore it.
4b Interesting questions. Answer it.
5 Others respond back through debian-questions; a better answer. I receive that
too.
6 Some others, who prefer the web (or mobile app), respond accordingly. I
receive that too.
7 Maintainer may acknowledge the same answer
In the above example, without the maintainer's involvement until step 7, the
answer was made by converging information from all channels. The above example
also assumes all platforms (Web Forum, Mailing List, QTS) are connected.
I am not aware of any such centralized and connected infrastructure in Debian.
> At this point, I just don't have time to read and understand most user
> questions, let alone help with them, so it's not so much that I prefer
> forums that use a different format than users prefer as it is that I
> prefer forums that don't have user questions. :|
Yes. Agreed. As I mention above, this isn't about putting the obligation on
maintainers, to answer questions. Just about connecting fragmented user groups.
--
Ritesh Raj Sarraf | http://people.debian.org/~rrs
Debian - The Universal Operating System
signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: contacting Debian is too easy to get wrong
On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 2:45 PM, Ben Finney wrote: > It seems to me that this would add another place for people to direct > their questions, without addressing the problem of finding the right > contact point to begin with. The proposal was not to add yet another place to contact folks, but to create a service that can tell you who to contact and how. > In other words: What's to stop ‘contacts.debian.org’ from becoming yet > another item that comes up in search results, maybe discovered and maybe > not? How will that become the one obvious place for people to ask? Because it wouldn't provide any extra email addresses or question submission forms. -- bye, pabs https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise
Re: contacting Debian is too easy to get wrong
On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 2:50 AM, Ritesh Raj Sarraf wrote: > When a user asks for a question, most usually end up on a web forum. > Developers > mostly prefer monitoring hand-picked mailing lists only. That's where the > disconnect is, in my opinion. IIRC Fedora solved this with mailman3 and hyperkitty, their mailing lists are also web forums. > PS: I hope to not have hijacked your thread. Your ask, in this email thread, > is > different than what I've been wanting to see for Debian. This sort of thing is pretty normal in Debian, annoying though it is. -- bye, pabs https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise
Re: contacting Debian is too easy to get wrong
Le Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 12:01:06PM +0800, Paul Wise a écrit : > > I've noticed that it is far too easy for folks unfamiliar with Debian > to contact the wrong addresses for their queries. I expect all of the > Debian teams with @debian.org aliases have found something similar. > > This causes various problems, including: > > Wasting the time of both Debian and people contacting us. > > Having queries ignored due to busy teams or frustration. > > People getting angry at us for redirecting them to user support > channels, when they should have gone there first. Hi Paul, to this list I would like to add that from time to time, some people write to debian-...@lists.debian.org as instructed by our website's footer, and get frustrated that their message will stay public and archived until the end of the Solar system. ask.debian.net was a good idea, but as of today it looks half broken. If a replacement engine is looked for, maybe one can have a look at Biostar (https://github.com/ialbert/biostar-central). It does not have many features, but perhaps that is the feature. > Is anyone interested in working on this problem? I am really sorry but I do not have enough time. But if ask.debian.net is repaired, I would try to visit it more often. Have a nice day, Charles -- Charles Plessy Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan
Re: contacting Debian is too easy to get wrong
Ian Jackson writes:
> Ritesh Raj Sarraf writes ("Re: contacting Debian is too easy to get wrong"):
>> When a user asks for a question, most usually end up on a web
>> forum. Developers mostly prefer monitoring hand-picked mailing lists
>> only. That's where the disconnect is, in my opinion.
>> What we need is to relate these interfaces to one another.
> I think the problem with user questions is even worse than that.
> Many developers don't actually want to spend much (or any) time
> answering user questions. Partly for bad reasons; but also for the
> very good reason that it doesn't scale.
I was about to follow up to make this point, but Ian beat me to it.
When I had lots of time to spend on Debian, I would occasionally get some
satisfaction out of helping a user debug some sort of general issue with
Debian on their system, or thinking through an odd use case for a package
to find some solution, but that sort of thing usually takes quite a lot of
time and back and forth, and it's often not high-leverage in the sense
that an equal amount of time put into packaging a new upstream release or
fixing a known bug will improve more things for more people. As I've had
to cut back on the number of hours I spend on Debian, I gravitate towards
higher-leverage activities.
At this point, I just don't have time to read and understand most user
questions, let alone help with them, so it's not so much that I prefer
forums that use a different format than users prefer as it is that I
prefer forums that don't have user questions. :|
--
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
Re: contacting Debian is too easy to get wrong
Ritesh Raj Sarraf writes ("Re: contacting Debian is too easy to get wrong"):
> When a user asks for a question, most usually end up on a web
> forum. Developers mostly prefer monitoring hand-picked mailing lists
> only. That's where the disconnect is, in my opinion.
>
> What we need is to relate these interfaces to one another.
I think the problem with user questions is even worse than that.
Many developers don't actually want to spend much (or any) time
answering user questions. Partly for bad reasons; but also for the
very good reason that it doesn't scale.
Ian.
Re: contacting Debian is too easy to get wrong
Paul Wise writes: > This causes various problems, including: I agree with your assessment of the problems. > Create a new contact.debian.org service to help people find the right > contact for their queries before they make contact. It seems to me that this would add another place for people to direct their questions, without addressing the problem of finding the right contact point to begin with. In other words: What's to stop ‘contacts.debian.org’ from becoming yet another item that comes up in search results, maybe discovered and maybe not? How will that become the one obvious place for people to ask? -- \“I went to court for a parking ticket; I pleaded insanity. I | `\ said ‘Your Honour, who in their right mind parks in the passing | _o__) lane?’” —Steven Wright | Ben Finney
Re: contacting Debian is too easy to get wrong
On Tue, 2017-03-21 at 16:30 +0800, Paul Wise wrote: > > For specific (package) questions, assign to Individuals/Teams just like bug > > reports. > > These should go to one of our support channels, package maintainers > are for maintaining software/packages rather than answering questions. > > https://www.debian.org/support > > > Essentially, a Question Tracking System, similar to BTS. Launchpad has a > > nice > > "Ask Questions" feature. > > We already have ask.debian.net for that. In my humble opinion, this is the problem. Today, we have too many options: * Mailing List * Web Forum * Stackoverflow style ask.debian.net * And many more, that I stopped worrying about. Of these, I'm guessing many of us just don't follow debian-user, given its volume (and noise). When a user asks for a question, most usually end up on a web forum. Developers mostly prefer monitoring hand-picked mailing lists only. That's where the disconnect is, in my opinion. What we need is to relate these interfaces to one another. A couple years ago, with Drupal (6), I built a similar setup for my ex-employer, where in users could post messages through web forum (or mailing list). The topic gets a forum id, as well as is converted into an email and sent to a mailing list. For Debian, something similar would be nice. A user could ask a question, on say, multipath-tools, on the web forum. The same goes to debian-questions@l.d.o as well as to the multipath-tools maintainer (similar to like bug reports). This way, the maintainer could answer, and so could other people subscribed to the debian-questions mailing list. PS: I hope to not have hijacked your thread. Your ask, in this email thread, is different than what I've been wanting to see for Debian. -- Given the large number of mailing lists I follow, I request you to CC me in replies for quicker response signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: contacting Debian is too easy to get wrong
2017-03-21 17:41 GMT+01:00 Don Armstrong : > On Tue, 21 Mar 2017, Paul Wise wrote: > > On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 3:36 PM, Ritesh Raj Sarraf wrote: > > > > > Yes. This would be great. An online form, that anyone could use to ask > a > > > question would be nice. > > > > We already have places to ask questions but people don't know how to > > find the right one. The service or web page I proposed would only be > > about finding the right place to ask. > > Why don't we merge www.debian.org/support and www.debian.org/contact > into a single, question oriented page, with more detail on subsequent > pages. > > Something like: > > 1. I want to report a bug in Debian --> www.debian.org/Bugs/reporting > 2. I need help installing and using Debian --> www.debian.org/support > 3. I want to help Debian --> www.debian.org/devel/join > 4. I'm a reporter and want to contact Debian --> pr...@debian.org > 5. I'm unsure who to contact at Debian --> deb...@debian.org > > and allow any DD to be on the deb...@debian.org alias (or have a web > form or whatever). > > Don Armstrong's approach may be a good first solution. An "I need Help" (not convinced by this title ! ) section in the Debian Home page could ease user's life.
Re: contacting Debian is too easy to get wrong
On Tue, 21 Mar 2017, Paul Wise wrote: > On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 3:36 PM, Ritesh Raj Sarraf wrote: > > > Yes. This would be great. An online form, that anyone could use to ask a > > question would be nice. > > We already have places to ask questions but people don't know how to > find the right one. The service or web page I proposed would only be > about finding the right place to ask. Why don't we merge www.debian.org/support and www.debian.org/contact into a single, question oriented page, with more detail on subsequent pages. Something like: 1. I want to report a bug in Debian --> www.debian.org/Bugs/reporting 2. I need help installing and using Debian --> www.debian.org/support 3. I want to help Debian --> www.debian.org/devel/join 4. I'm a reporter and want to contact Debian --> pr...@debian.org 5. I'm unsure who to contact at Debian --> deb...@debian.org and allow any DD to be on the deb...@debian.org alias (or have a web form or whatever). -- Don Armstrong https://www.donarmstrong.com More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other, to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly. -- Woody Allen
Re: contacting Debian is too easy to get wrong
On 03/21/2017 09:30 AM, Paul Wise wrote: > On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 3:36 PM, Ritesh Raj Sarraf wrote: > >> Yes. This would be great. An online form, that anyone could use to ask a >> question would be nice. > We already have places to ask questions but people don't know how to > find the right one. The service or web page I proposed would only be > about finding the right place to ask. So we admit that we have this places but we just want to pile more places so people can find thing. Why not just finally sit down, remove our head from hackerish thinking and say - our landing page (debian.org) is a disservice to community and we either work on that or don't work on that - someone needs to research the usability. We are tons of information, which really is great but if people need to read through it, and jump around to come to their answer/solution, I fear they will loose the will before they find what they need. Even things like changing font, font size, putting things into colored boxes etc etc can help users to easily see and navigate what are they looking for. > >> Much nicer would be if the user could use this form to ask question about >> specifics. For example, Tracker could have a new field, "Ask a question". > I'd rather they use existing services for asking questions, we have a > lot already and adding more will just dilute the available resources. But you just proposed adding more things. I propose archiving most of what we have and create one, easily accessible from landing page, place where users can direct their questions which offers them a way to choose appropriate tag. I see this as a addition to bugreport because believe it or not, most new users (especially non-technical ones) will not use the bugreport tool (we can accept this or not and rant few more years how people say that we aren't user friendly but we know better and they are wrong). > >> For generic questions, assign question to "PR Team". > Not sure what you mean by PR but if you mean the publicity team, they > definitely wouldn't be the place to direct generic questions. Hm, now to even go further with idea archive all except one (or archive all and create one new) service for users/community and create support team. > >> For specific (package) questions, assign to Individuals/Teams just like bug >> reports. > These should go to one of our support channels, package maintainers > are for maintaining software/packages rather than answering questions. > > https://www.debian.org/support That is already on our landing page and your subject says "contacting Debian is too easy to get wrong" but now you say same thing that probably frustrates users. It is obviously it is there, yet it is even more obvious it DIDN't help. > >> Essentially, a Question Tracking System, similar to BTS. Launchpad has a nice >> "Ask Questions" feature. > We already have ask.debian.net for that. Which also failed for most. I don't think even all Debian Developers know for ask.debian.net or all services - how do we expect someone using Debian for the first time go into all this. Understanding gigantic project such as Debian is already hard, getting help is intimidating if they come across us devs saying RTFM, go here and here, etc etc. > >> I don't have much web skills but I'd volunteer to be part of that team and >> help >> in whatever way feasible. > Great! > I would help with the idea of creating support team and helping with making support part more prominent on our page (but yea, that probably includes changing the design which I don't even want to start debating in Debian..).
Re: contacting Debian is too easy to get wrong
On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 3:36 PM, Ritesh Raj Sarraf wrote: > Yes. This would be great. An online form, that anyone could use to ask a > question would be nice. We already have places to ask questions but people don't know how to find the right one. The service or web page I proposed would only be about finding the right place to ask. > Much nicer would be if the user could use this form to ask question about > specifics. For example, Tracker could have a new field, "Ask a question". I'd rather they use existing services for asking questions, we have a lot already and adding more will just dilute the available resources. > For generic questions, assign question to "PR Team". Not sure what you mean by PR but if you mean the publicity team, they definitely wouldn't be the place to direct generic questions. > For specific (package) questions, assign to Individuals/Teams just like bug > reports. These should go to one of our support channels, package maintainers are for maintaining software/packages rather than answering questions. https://www.debian.org/support > Essentially, a Question Tracking System, similar to BTS. Launchpad has a nice > "Ask Questions" feature. We already have ask.debian.net for that. > I don't have much web skills but I'd volunteer to be part of that team and > help > in whatever way feasible. Great! -- bye, pabs https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise
Re: contacting Debian is too easy to get wrong
Hello Paul, On Tue, 2017-03-21 at 12:01 +0800, Paul Wise wrote: > Hi all, > > When I was a press team assistant and with the various DSA addresses, > I've noticed that it is far too easy for folks unfamiliar with Debian > to contact the wrong addresses for their queries. I expect all of the > Debian teams with @debian.org aliases have found something similar. > > This causes various problems, including: > > Wasting the time of both Debian and people contacting us. > > Having queries ignored due to busy teams or frustration. > > People getting angry at us for redirecting them to user support > channels, when they should have gone there first. > > I think these actions could possibly help fix this problem: > > Create a new contact.debian.org service to help people find the right > contact for their queries before they make contact. > Yes. This would be great. An online form, that anyone could use to ask a question would be nice. Much nicer would be if the user could use this form to ask question about specifics. For example, Tracker could have a new field, "Ask a question". The contact online form could also be made to direct to correct pages, when users have specific questions. > Have a team of folks with good general knowledge of Debian as a whole > who can recieve the queries that don't fit any contact.d.o category and > respond appropriately as well as update the service. > For generic questions, assign question to "PR Team". For specific (package) questions, assign to Individuals/Teams just like bug reports. Essentially, a Question Tracking System, similar to BTS. Launchpad has a nice "Ask Questions" feature. > Replace contact information in various places with links to > contact.d.o, with appropriate query parameters to DTRT. > > Fix reportbug to ask people reporting general/base/etc bugs to support. > > > > Any thoughts on this issue? > > Is anyone interested in working on this problem? > I don't have much web skills but I'd volunteer to be part of that team and help in whatever way feasible. -- Given the large number of mailing lists I follow, I request you to CC me in replies for quicker response signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
contacting Debian is too easy to get wrong
Hi all, When I was a press team assistant and with the various DSA addresses, I've noticed that it is far too easy for folks unfamiliar with Debian to contact the wrong addresses for their queries. I expect all of the Debian teams with @debian.org aliases have found something similar. This causes various problems, including: Wasting the time of both Debian and people contacting us. Having queries ignored due to busy teams or frustration. People getting angry at us for redirecting them to user support channels, when they should have gone there first. I think these actions could possibly help fix this problem: Create a new contact.debian.org service to help people find the right contact for their queries before they make contact. Have a team of folks with good general knowledge of Debian as a whole who can recieve the queries that don't fit any contact.d.o category and respond appropriately as well as update the service. Replace contact information in various places with links to contact.d.o, with appropriate query parameters to DTRT. Fix reportbug to ask people reporting general/base/etc bugs to support. Any thoughts on this issue? Is anyone interested in working on this problem? -- bye, pabs https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
