Re: Notification icons hell (was Re: [gpm] Re: Gnome 2.16 Module Proposal: GNOME Power Manager)
On 4/10/06, Rodney Dawes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > And doing so, shuffles the icons around, making the ones > the user does care about, moving targets in some cases. See my proposal earlier. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Notification icons hell (was Re: [gpm] Re: Gnome 2.16 Module Proposal: GNOME Power Manager)
Rodney Dawes wrote: This is a configuration problem, not a user interface problem. Just because you might want to do that, does not mean that all other users will want to as well. In fact, if you want to say that, we can talk about the majority of the Desktop market, and show how useful it is to have them in the tray, because all of the IM clients are there in the same area, so it makes it easy to use them all. And useful status information is there too. You don't have to rove all around your desktop looking for information, as it's all always in the same location. But that's just me (and another 85% of the market). I really, really don't care about the market. I'm not a carpet salesman. About our current subject, I like my desktop being well organized. And as all my status monitors (I'm using a laptop, so I'm talking about network interfaces status and frequency monitor) sit on a part of my panel, I don't see any good reason why the battery monitor should be on a separate place, in the notification area, with no way for me to put it among the other ones. And what happen is just the opposite of what you describe : that status icon is not in the right place, so I have to look around my desktop to find it. Worse, it's messed up with app icons (which I'm quite ok they stay in the notification area) and other real notification icons... ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Notification icons hell (was Re: [gpm] Re: Gnome 2.16 Module Proposal: GNOME Power Manager)
On Mon, 2006-04-10 at 19:36 +0200, Steve Frécinaux wrote: > Rodney Dawes wrote: > > On Mon, 2006-04-10 at 08:37 +0200, Vincent Untz wrote: > >> + the gossip icon. It just sits there, while I have no message. It > >>should be an applet. > > > > Making it an applet doesn't solve the problem. It's still the same icon > > sitting on your panel, taking up space, doing absolutely nothing for > > you. In fact, making it an applet would be a regression, as it would no > > longer work under other desktops as well. > > But it would allow me to put the icon wherever I want to put it, and not > in the notification area. This is a configuration problem, not a user interface problem. Just because you might want to do that, does not mean that all other users will want to as well. In fact, if you want to say that, we can talk about the majority of the Desktop market, and show how useful it is to have them in the tray, because all of the IM clients are there in the same area, so it makes it easy to use them all. And useful status information is there too. You don't have to rove all around your desktop looking for information, as it's all always in the same location. But that's just me (and another 85% of the market). -- dobey ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Notification icons hell (was Re: [gpm] Re: Gnome 2.16 Module Proposal: GNOME Power Manager)
On Mon, 2006-04-10 at 17:35 +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote: > On Mon, Apr 10, 2006 at 12:21:58PM -0400, Rodney Dawes wrote: > > > We should make it smart and allow expansion, and hide inactive and low > > priority icons, like on Windows. > > If we can hide icons without losing important information, why are we > showing them in the first place? This is not the correct question to the problem. *WE* aren't showing them. However, *WE* also don't control all the win32 apps that one can run, that puts an icon in the tray, or other apps which are not part of GNOME itself, and need to show an icon on all desktops for some reason. Also, it's quite annoying to have icons appearing and disappearing constantly, because something happened, and then 3 seconds later the icon is gone. And doing so, shuffles the icons around, making the ones the user does care about, moving targets in some cases. -- dobey ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Notification icons hell (was Re: [gpm] Re: Gnome 2.16 Module Proposal: GNOME Power Manager)
Hi, On Mon, 2006-04-10 at 14:31 +0100, Iain * wrote: > > You missed my second point. If the icon is the application, then we > > should provide an easy way for the application to use an applet > > instead of the notification area. > > Except they want it so that they work in KDE as well. That was the > original reason for the first offender (the redhat updater icon) to > use the notification area instead of an applet. I feel like the importance of this is understated. Developers writing software for the "Linux desktop" will ignore desktop-specific interface guidelines if they have to to reach both desktops or achieve missing functionality. All the panel-dockable dealies I write (which have included Netapplet and now Beagle) are notification area icons and not panel applets for this reason. It's fine to debate the finer points of our UI guidelines with respect to the notification area, but no one outside of GNOME is going to follow them if it's the only means to put them on both desktops. Joe ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Notification icons hell (was Re: [gpm] Re: Gnome 2.16 Module Proposal: GNOME Power Manager)
> You missed my second point. If the icon is the application, then we > should provide an easy way for the application to use an applet > instead of the notification area. Sort of like "minimize to applet" or something? That's not going to work well until applets and application use the same main loop. We really need to move towards merging those together so we can do a lot more interesting things with the desktop. sri ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Notification icons hell (was Re: [gpm] Re: Gnome 2.16 Module Proposal: GNOME Power Manager)
Rodney Dawes wrote: On Mon, 2006-04-10 at 08:37 +0200, Vincent Untz wrote: + the gossip icon. It just sits there, while I have no message. It should be an applet. Making it an applet doesn't solve the problem. It's still the same icon sitting on your panel, taking up space, doing absolutely nothing for you. In fact, making it an applet would be a regression, as it would no longer work under other desktops as well. But it would allow me to put the icon wherever I want to put it, and not in the notification area. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Notification icons hell (was Re: [gpm] Re: Gnome 2.16 Module Proposal: GNOME Power Manager)
On Mon, Apr 10, 2006 at 12:21:58PM -0400, Rodney Dawes wrote: > We should make it smart and allow expansion, and hide inactive and low > priority icons, like on Windows. If we can hide icons without losing important information, why are we showing them in the first place? -- Matthew Garrett | [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Notification icons hell (was Re: [gpm] Re: Gnome 2.16 Module Proposal: GNOME Power Manager)
On Mon, 2006-04-10 at 08:37 +0200, Vincent Untz wrote: > + the gossip icon. It just sits there, while I have no message. It >should be an applet. Making it an applet doesn't solve the problem. It's still the same icon sitting on your panel, taking up space, doing absolutely nothing for you. In fact, making it an applet would be a regression, as it would no longer work under other desktops as well. > There are some ways to fix this: > > + HIG HIG HIG The HIG is a set of guidelines, not a set of rules that must be abided for an application to use the tray. Putting something here doesn't really solve the problem outside the scope of the core GNOME apps. It just gives the people who will whine about the problem, someplace to point at, while they are whining. > + try to make the notification area smart and force some icons to hide. >This will be inherently broken. We should make it smart and allow expansion, and hide inactive and low priority icons, like on Windows. -- dobey ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Notification icons hell (was Re: [gpm] Re: Gnome 2.16 Module Proposal: GNOME Power Manager)
> You missed my second point. If the icon is the application, then we > should provide an easy way for the application to use an applet > instead of the notification area. Except they want it so that they work in KDE as well. That was the original reason for the first offender (the redhat updater icon) to use the notification area instead of an applet. But I don't see that use of the notification area for this sort of thing as "bad" persay. We just need to be able to handle it well. iain ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Notification icons hell (was Re: [gpm] Re: Gnome 2.16 Module Proposal: GNOME Power Manager)
On Mon, April 10, 2006 11:28, Iain * wrote: > On 4/10/06, Vincent Untz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> There are some ways to fix this: >> >> + HIG HIG HIG >> >> + make it possible to dynamically add an applet from a program. I'd >>like to add the infrastructure for this during 2.16. Don't know if >>I'll have time, but maybe someone is interested in working on >>this? ;-) >> >> + try to make the notification area smart and force some icons to hide. >>This will be inherently broken. > > There are two different ways of looking at the icons > + Icon is application and any windows created belong to the icon > The program doesn't quit when you close windows. Gaim and Tomboy are > examples > + Icon is used for notification and is owned by the program. If the > program window >is closed, the icon never appears again. > > I think we need to accept that both of these are going to be used > whether we like it or not, and handle them both. Currently we only > "allow" the second way, and bitch about the first, but it is clear > that applications want the first one, and there are many situations > that the first is useful. You missed my second point. If the icon is the application, then we should provide an easy way for the application to use an applet instead of the notification area. And I don't think we need to accept things when we believe they're wrong :-) I understand applications need something like this. Let's provide it so the poor notification area can be a notification area and only a notification area. Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Notification icons hell (was Re: [gpm] Re: Gnome 2.16 Module Proposal: GNOME Power Manager)
Vincent Untz writes: > + HIG HIG HIG [Bug 99175] Need recommendations for notification area. HIG | General | Ver: unspecified http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99175 -- Best Regards / S pozdravem, Stanislav Brabec software developer - SuSE CR, s. r. o. e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Drahobejlova 27 tel: +420 296 542 382 190 00 Praha 9fax: +420 296 542 374 Czech Republichttp://www.suse.cz/ ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Notification icons hell (was Re: [gpm] Re: Gnome 2.16 Module Proposal: GNOME Power Manager)
On Mon, 2006-04-10 at 08:37 +0200, Vincent Untz wrote: > Well, I really should have 6, but I'm not listening music right now > (rhythmbox). And it could be 7, but I'm not connected with ekiga right > now. Or 8 with NetworkManager. And even 9 since I use the keyboard > typing break feature, but the icon disappeared??? > oh, that's a bug, please file it :) -- Rodrigo Moya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Notification icons hell (was Re: [gpm] Re: Gnome 2.16 Module Proposal: GNOME Power Manager)
> There are two different ways of looking at the icons > + Icon is application and any windows created belong to the icon > The program doesn't quit when you close windows. Gaim and Tomboy are > examples > + Icon is used for notification and is owned by the program. If the > program window >is closed, the icon never appears again. > > I think we need to accept that both of these are going to be used > whether we like it or not, and handle them both. Currently we only > "allow" the second way, and bitch about the first, but it is clear > that applications want the first one, and there are many situations > that the first is useful. It might be useful to allow apps to define which category they are in, and then their location when being added is changed. With the notification area at the right hand side of panel [a][2][2][2][b][1][1][1][1] [1] is an icon using case 1 [2] is an icon using case 2 [a] is where icons using case 2 are added because they appear and disappear all the time, we don't want them to adjust the location of the [1] icons [b] is where icons using case 1 are added, because they are there for a long time and people want to find them, so it'd be nice if they were in a more permanent position and can't be moved around by the [2]s I think it could be possible to turn all applets into [1]s which bring up a window when clicked. If we could do away with the concept of applets then we'd have an entire panel to play with for notification icons...Pager and window list applets are special though...but yeah, I'm talking crap here. iain ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Notification icons hell (was Re: [gpm] Re: Gnome 2.16 Module Proposal: GNOME Power Manager)
On Mon, 2006-04-10 at 10:28 +0100, Iain * wrote: > > + try to make the notification area smart and force some icons to hide. > >This will be inherently broken. > > There are two different ways of looking at the icons > + Icon is application and any windows created belong to the icon > The program doesn't quit when you close windows. Gaim and Tomboy are > examples Tomboy also has a proper applet (which I'm using right now). Gaim's icon is similar to the NetworkManager: it shows the state of the connection, and changes when there's an "event"; one could also argue that the 'Buddy List' is hardly Gaim's main window (I practically never use it). Ciao, Emmanuele -- Emmanuele Bassi - <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Log: http://log.emmanuelebassi.net ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Notification icons hell (was Re: [gpm] Re: Gnome 2.16 Module Proposal: GNOME Power Manager)
On 4/10/06, Vincent Untz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > There are some ways to fix this: > > + HIG HIG HIG > > + make it possible to dynamically add an applet from a program. I'd >like to add the infrastructure for this during 2.16. Don't know if >I'll have time, but maybe someone is interested in working on >this? ;-) > > + try to make the notification area smart and force some icons to hide. >This will be inherently broken. There are two different ways of looking at the icons + Icon is application and any windows created belong to the icon The program doesn't quit when you close windows. Gaim and Tomboy are examples + Icon is used for notification and is owned by the program. If the program window is closed, the icon never appears again. I think we need to accept that both of these are going to be used whether we like it or not, and handle them both. Currently we only "allow" the second way, and bitch about the first, but it is clear that applications want the first one, and there are many situations that the first is useful. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
