Re: [Desktop_architects] Most wanted Application: Email
On Wednesday 21 December 2005 16:52, Dave Rosenberg wrote: > In order for Linux desktops to be adopted in enterprises we need one > set of software that provides all of the above in a bundled fashion. > Kind of a bastard-child of OO.org/Mozilla etc containing office/ > browser/email in one fell swoop. i think this survey was a bit like asking the patient to diagnose themselves. but that notwithstanding ... ... we already have software that provides all of the above in a bundled fashion. it's not compelling. why? they need to be developed further (read: we need more developers) they need to work with other desktop technologies better hardware (hand helds, for example) non-office-suite desktop software KDE (and others, but i won't speak for them as that's a bit rude =) are working rather successfully on the "set of software that provides all the above in a bundled fashion". what we NEED are the things we identified in Portland to be addressed (including the items we didn't have break out sessions for, but which ended up on index cards) so we can do our job even better. the lack of an email app that does what people need (if that is indeed a problem) is the cough; the issues identified at Portland are the disease. do we really want to address symptoms? -- Aaron J. Seigo GPG Fingerprint: 8B8B 2209 0C6F 7C47 B1EA EE75 D6B7 2EB1 A7F1 DB43 Full time KDE developer sponsored by Trolltech (http://www.trolltech.com) pgpTuamQsrVTA.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Desktop_architects mailing list Desktop_architects@lists.osdl.org https://lists.osdl.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop_architects
Re: [Desktop_architects] Most wanted Application: Email
On Wed, 2005-12-21 at 17:35 -0500, Mike Shaver wrote: > On 21-Dec-05, at 4:58 PM, Timothy D. Witham wrote: > > > 1) Good sync with handheld devices. > > Phone, Blackbeary (sp?) and Plam or pocket PC > > Evo does that in many cases, I thought, but yeah, I can totally see > that being a barrier. Seems like something that is mostly client-side. > But not reliably - I've setup my Pilot about 5 times and still it all goes away every once in awhile. I've talked to other folks who have the same sort of issues. > > 2) Group calendaring including meeting scheduling. > > i..e. I want to check if Tom, Bill, Linus and Buddy the wonder > >dog are available at 10:00 PM. > > This includes a laptop resyncing when it gets back to a > >connected state and the last know schedule being > > available on a server. > > That's not email, but OK, I definitely believe that it's a barrier to > adoption. Evo has that capability with Exchange now, though -- what > are the cases in which that breaks down? > It is to the corporate people. It is important to remember who is the customer. They might not always be right in their definitions but they are always the customer. > (I have a harder time believing that OpenOffice was is a more > important "browser application or plug-in" to support than QuickTime, > Windows Media, or _Java_and_ActiveX_. Is there a way to see what the > results look like if we limit to the set of respondents whose jobs > would indicate that they are specify/approve/purchase?) > > > 3) Proxies for executives. i.e. Setup an admin to be able to > > respond > > to the executive's mail so that it appears to be coming > > from the executive > > so the lower folks don't know that the executive doesn't > > read most of > > their own mail. > > I must not be understanding this requirement, because that sounds > like the sort of thing that is done by setting up the admin's mail > client to point at the same IMAP account as the executives. If > that's really the #3 issue, though, it sounds like we're in good shape. > It is sort of close but not the same. The issue is the admin setups the meeting and then responds as the admin. What they want is the admin to respond as the executive. > >This seems to be the problem as folks keep doing new clients > > when the > > issues is the server side stuff. > > I don't understand -- Linux desktop deployment is gated by there not > being open source servers on Linux for mail and calendaring? Why are > those related? The Linux desktop could deploy against Exchange/ > GroupWise/Notes/etc., no? > It is one of those things. Well if I'm going to keep all of this other stuff around I'm going to keep the desktop I know also. In short they don't see the whole move so it gives them the easy way out of moving at all. Strange but true. > Thanks for the list, though -- what's the source of those pain > points? From the comments in the survey? > From places like the LUAC and talking to large end user CIO's. (I was at a conference two weeks ago with a big group of these folks. I haven't seen 90+ suits in a room in about a decade.) But this is a big issue to them. Tim > Mike -- Timothy D. Witham - Chief Technology Officer - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Open Source Development Lab Inc - A non-profit corporation 12725 SW Millikan Way - Suite 400 - Beaverton OR, 97005 (503)-906-1911 (office)(503)-702-2871 (cell) (503)-626-2436 (fax) ___ Desktop_architects mailing list Desktop_architects@lists.osdl.org https://lists.osdl.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop_architects
Re: [Desktop_architects] Most wanted Application: Email
On Wednesday 21 December 2005 22:58, Timothy D. Witham wrote: > > 2) Group calendaring including meeting scheduling. > i..e. I want to check if Tom, Bill, Linus and Buddy the wonder > dog are available at 10:00 PM. > This includes a laptop resyncing when it gets back to a >connected state and the last know schedule being > available on a server. > 3) Proxies for executives. i.e. Setup an admin to be able to respond > to the executive's mail so that it appears to be coming from the > executive so the lower folks don't know that the executive doesn't read > most of their own mail. > > P.S. Open source because they don't want to be locked in like what > happened with their last supplier of group mail/calendaring. > >This seems to be the problem as folks keep doing new clients when the > issues is the server side stuff. Open source solutions like Kolab, OpenGroupware, Open-Xchange, eGroupware, etc. do solve all or at least most of these issues today (depending on what server you look at and the exact use case you have). Maybe this fact is just not known enough. -- Cornelius Schumacher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ___ Desktop_architects mailing list Desktop_architects@lists.osdl.org https://lists.osdl.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop_architects
Re: [Desktop_architects] Most wanted Application: Email
On Wed, Dec 21, 2005 at 05:35:31PM -0500, Mike Shaver wrote: > On 21-Dec-05, at 4:58 PM, Timothy D. Witham wrote: > >2) Group calendaring including meeting scheduling. > > i..e. I want to check if Tom, Bill, Linus and Buddy the > > wonder > >dog are available at 10:00 PM. > > This includes a laptop resyncing when it gets back to a > > connected state and the last know schedule being > > available on a server. > > That's not email, but OK, I definitely believe that it's a barrier to > adoption. Evo has that capability with Exchange now, though -- what > are the cases in which that breaks down? > > This seems to be the problem as folks keep doing new clients > >when the > >issues is the server side stuff. > > I don't understand -- Linux desktop deployment is gated by there not > being open source servers on Linux for mail and calendaring? Why are > those related? The Linux desktop could deploy against Exchange/ > GroupWise/Notes/etc., no? > > Thanks for the list, though -- what's the source of those pain > points? From the comments in the survey? We've heard this from several sources over the years. I also did an evaluation of calendar/email systems a few years back. I know there's been a good deal of work in this area, so this report is fairly dated, but I don't think it's considered a solved problem quite yet... http://www.osdl.org/projects/cmptblclndrng/results/ I should add that we've considered starting a project to help address the remaining issues, but our take is that the remaining issues are _quite hard_ to solve, and at the time it wasn't clear which of the existing calendaring efforts were worth focusing on. We ended up going with a non-OSS calendaring server called Synchronize. We didn't want to go with Exchange/GroupWise/Notes due to cost, Linux compatibility, and other reasons, however I'd imagine other organizations wouldn't be quite as gated by the desire for all-OSS solutions and might find their cost acceptable. Bryce ___ Desktop_architects mailing list Desktop_architects@lists.osdl.org https://lists.osdl.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop_architects
Re: [Desktop_architects] Most wanted Application: Email
On Wednesday 21 December 2005 23:09, Hubert Figuiere wrote: > > It isn't the client side. It is the server side. > > > > 1) Good sync with handheld devices. > > Phone, Blackbeary (sp?) and Plam or pocket PC > > This is client side. Let's give some love to OpenSync. The idea is > fundamentally good. Yes. For KDE we decided to replace our own home-brewn solutions by OpenSync for KDE 4. It traditionally works well on GNOME as it's the successor of MultiSync and others also have said that they wanted to use it. OpenSync has a sane modular architecture, is cross-desktop and cross-operating-system and there are plugins for most standard devices. In my opinion it's going to solve the handheld syncing problem. Hubert is right, give it some love :-) -- Cornelius Schumacher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ___ Desktop_architects mailing list Desktop_architects@lists.osdl.org https://lists.osdl.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop_architects
RE: [Desktop_architects] Most wanted Application: Email
Nat, I'm curious about your interpretation of Dave's statement. Are you suggesting that not all of the features necessarily need to be integrated into a single bundle or that not all of the features we mentioned are really necessary? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nat Friedman Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 3:57 PM To: Dave Rosenberg Cc: desktop_architects@lists.osdl.org Subject: Re: [Desktop_architects] Most wanted Application: Email On Wed, 2005-12-21 at 15:52 -0800, Dave Rosenberg wrote: > In order for Linux desktops to be adopted in enterprises we need one > set of software that provides all of the above in a bundled fashion. I would like to see the survey data that bears this out. This sounds like personal opinion to me. Nat ___ Desktop_architects mailing list Desktop_architects@lists.osdl.org https://lists.osdl.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop_architects
Re: [Desktop_architects] Most wanted Application: Email
On Wed, 2005-12-21 at 15:52 -0800, Dave Rosenberg wrote: > In order for Linux desktops to be adopted in enterprises we need one > set of software that provides all of the above in a bundled fashion. I would like to see the survey data that bears this out. This sounds like personal opinion to me. Nat ___ Desktop_architects mailing list Desktop_architects@lists.osdl.org https://lists.osdl.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop_architects
Re: [Desktop_architects] Most wanted Application: Email
Email was the #1 item, but I think it comes down to the whole suite of office-esque apps. What I mean is that if you buy MS Office you essentially get Outlook for free. In order for Linux desktops to be adopted in enterprises we need one set of software that provides all of the above in a bundled fashion. Kind of a bastard-child of OO.org/Mozilla etc containing office/ browser/email in one fell swoop. At that point the server software (Exchange or other) becomes a non-issue as long as the mail suite and calendaring can communicate. BTW-I can send the survey write-ins to whoever needs them but we don't want it to go public. Thanks, dave On Dec 21, 2005, at 3:13 PM, Mike Shaver wrote: On 21-Dec-05, at 5:55 PM, Miller, Marc wrote: The trick then becomes to create demand for that server-end app by creating a client that supports compelling additional features without crippling the user for not having the server end of the solution. Do we need to do that for the Linux desktop to succeed? Mike ___ Desktop_architects mailing list Desktop_architects@lists.osdl.org https://lists.osdl.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop_architects ___ Desktop_architects mailing list Desktop_architects@lists.osdl.org https://lists.osdl.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop_architects
Re: [Desktop_architects] Most wanted Application: Email
I'd like to declare shenanigans on this topic. IMHO email applications are somewhat beyond the scope of this list... On 12/21/05, Mike Shaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 21-Dec-05, at 5:55 PM, Miller, Marc wrote: > > The trick then becomes to create demand for that server-end app by > > creating a client that supports compelling additional features > > without crippling the user for not having the server end of the > > solution. > > Do we need to do that for the Linux desktop to succeed? > > Mike > > > > ___ > Desktop_architects mailing list > Desktop_architects@lists.osdl.org > https://lists.osdl.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop_architects > > > -- Wine for Windows ISVs: http://kegel.com/wine/isv ___ Desktop_architects mailing list Desktop_architects@lists.osdl.org https://lists.osdl.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop_architects
Re: [Desktop_architects] Most wanted Application: Email
On 21-Dec-05, at 5:55 PM, Miller, Marc wrote: The trick then becomes to create demand for that server-end app by creating a client that supports compelling additional features without crippling the user for not having the server end of the solution. Do we need to do that for the Linux desktop to succeed? Mike ___ Desktop_architects mailing list Desktop_architects@lists.osdl.org https://lists.osdl.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop_architects
RE: [Desktop_architects] Most wanted Application: Email
The server part of the Microsoft solution really is what is creating the lock-in. Providing a cross-platform choice that works with the existing infrastructure is an easier battle to fight than getting an enterprise to switch to a new server. ...and as long as Exchange remains the enterprise server of choice, Outlook will remain the client of choice. The trick then becomes to create demand for that server-end app by creating a client that supports compelling additional features without crippling the user for not having the server end of the solution. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Timothy D. Witham Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 1:58 PM To: Mike Shaver Cc: desktop_architects@lists.osdl.org Subject: Re: [Desktop_architects] Most wanted Application: Email On Wed, 2005-12-21 at 16:31 -0500, Mike Shaver wrote: > On 21-Dec-05, at 4:19 PM, Otto Wyss wrote: > > > From the Linux desktop survey the most wanted application is an > > Emailer. So let’s get this problem solved, a cross-platform Emailer > > which is good enough to replace Outlook as the default Emailer for > > the masses. > > Yeah, let's get that problem solved! Why didn't anyone think of that > before? =) > > I don't know from wyoGuide, or why it's a requirement (or why POP3 > needs to be in a separate library (or, TBH, why there are > implementation requirements at all, at this point)) but your > description is not very far from either Thunderbird or post-Windows- > port Evolution, as I read it. (Maybe Kmail, I dunno anything about it.) > > The Linux desktop survey didn't make it clear to me what specifically > was wrong with the current offerings in terms of email, though I'll > confess that I saw it was about enterprise deployment and started > skimming. Clearly (?) there is some critical failing in the current > Evo/Tbird/Kmail offerings, but I don't think it's anything on your > current list, because that stuff is pretty much covered. > > Anyone know more? > It isn't the client side. It is the server side. 1) Good sync with handheld devices. Phone, Blackbeary (sp?) and Plam or pocket PC 2) Group calendaring including meeting scheduling. i..e. I want to check if Tom, Bill, Linus and Buddy the wonder dog are available at 10:00 PM. This includes a laptop resyncing when it gets back to a connected state and the last know schedule being available on a server. 3) Proxies for executives. i.e. Setup an admin to be able to respond to the executive's mail so that it appears to be coming from the executive so the lower folks don't know that the executive doesn't read most of their own mail. P.S. Open source because they don't want to be locked in like what happened with their last supplier of group mail/calendaring. This seems to be the problem as folks keep doing new clients when the issues is the server side stuff. Tim > Mike > > > > ___ > Desktop_architects mailing list > Desktop_architects@lists.osdl.org > https://lists.osdl.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop_architects -- Timothy D. Witham - Chief Technology Officer - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Open Source Development Lab Inc - A non-profit corporation 12725 SW Millikan Way - Suite 400 - Beaverton OR, 97005 (503)-906-1911 (office)(503)-702-2871 (cell) (503)-626-2436 (fax) ___ Desktop_architects mailing list Desktop_architects@lists.osdl.org https://lists.osdl.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop_architects
Re: [Desktop_architects] Most wanted Application: Email
On 21-Dec-05, at 4:58 PM, Timothy D. Witham wrote: 1) Good sync with handheld devices. Phone, Blackbeary (sp?) and Plam or pocket PC Evo does that in many cases, I thought, but yeah, I can totally see that being a barrier. Seems like something that is mostly client-side. 2) Group calendaring including meeting scheduling. i..e. I want to check if Tom, Bill, Linus and Buddy the wonder dog are available at 10:00 PM. This includes a laptop resyncing when it gets back to a connected state and the last know schedule being available on a server. That's not email, but OK, I definitely believe that it's a barrier to adoption. Evo has that capability with Exchange now, though -- what are the cases in which that breaks down? (I have a harder time believing that OpenOffice was is a more important "browser application or plug-in" to support than QuickTime, Windows Media, or _Java_and_ActiveX_. Is there a way to see what the results look like if we limit to the set of respondents whose jobs would indicate that they are specify/approve/purchase?) 3) Proxies for executives. i.e. Setup an admin to be able to respond to the executive's mail so that it appears to be coming from the executive so the lower folks don't know that the executive doesn't read most of their own mail. I must not be understanding this requirement, because that sounds like the sort of thing that is done by setting up the admin's mail client to point at the same IMAP account as the executives. If that's really the #3 issue, though, it sounds like we're in good shape. This seems to be the problem as folks keep doing new clients when the issues is the server side stuff. I don't understand -- Linux desktop deployment is gated by there not being open source servers on Linux for mail and calendaring? Why are those related? The Linux desktop could deploy against Exchange/ GroupWise/Notes/etc., no? Thanks for the list, though -- what's the source of those pain points? From the comments in the survey? Mike ___ Desktop_architects mailing list Desktop_architects@lists.osdl.org https://lists.osdl.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop_architects
Re: [Desktop_architects] Most wanted Application: Email
> It isn't the client side. It is the server side. > > 1) Good sync with handheld devices. > Phone, Blackbeary (sp?) and Plam or pocket PC This is client side. Let's give some love to OpenSync. The idea is fundamentally good. Shall we integrate PDA-like device syncronization into the desktop architecture ? I think so. Apple's idea with iSync is far from being stupid. And the current situation, even on Windows is far from ideal. Hub ___ Desktop_architects mailing list Desktop_architects@lists.osdl.org https://lists.osdl.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop_architects
Re: [Desktop_architects] Most wanted Application: Email
On Wed, 2005-12-21 at 16:31 -0500, Mike Shaver wrote: > On 21-Dec-05, at 4:19 PM, Otto Wyss wrote: > > > From the Linux desktop survey the most wanted application is an > > Emailer. So let’s get this problem solved, a cross-platform Emailer > > which is good enough to replace Outlook as the default Emailer for > > the masses. > > Yeah, let's get that problem solved! Why didn't anyone think of that > before? =) > > I don't know from wyoGuide, or why it's a requirement (or why POP3 > needs to be in a separate library (or, TBH, why there are > implementation requirements at all, at this point)) but your > description is not very far from either Thunderbird or post-Windows- > port Evolution, as I read it. (Maybe Kmail, I dunno anything about it.) > > The Linux desktop survey didn't make it clear to me what specifically > was wrong with the current offerings in terms of email, though I'll > confess that I saw it was about enterprise deployment and started > skimming. Clearly (?) there is some critical failing in the current > Evo/Tbird/Kmail offerings, but I don't think it's anything on your > current list, because that stuff is pretty much covered. > > Anyone know more? > It isn't the client side. It is the server side. 1) Good sync with handheld devices. Phone, Blackbeary (sp?) and Plam or pocket PC 2) Group calendaring including meeting scheduling. i..e. I want to check if Tom, Bill, Linus and Buddy the wonder dog are available at 10:00 PM. This includes a laptop resyncing when it gets back to a connected state and the last know schedule being available on a server. 3) Proxies for executives. i.e. Setup an admin to be able to respond to the executive's mail so that it appears to be coming from the executive so the lower folks don't know that the executive doesn't read most of their own mail. P.S. Open source because they don't want to be locked in like what happened with their last supplier of group mail/calendaring. This seems to be the problem as folks keep doing new clients when the issues is the server side stuff. Tim > Mike > > > > ___ > Desktop_architects mailing list > Desktop_architects@lists.osdl.org > https://lists.osdl.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop_architects -- Timothy D. Witham - Chief Technology Officer - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Open Source Development Lab Inc - A non-profit corporation 12725 SW Millikan Way - Suite 400 - Beaverton OR, 97005 (503)-906-1911 (office)(503)-702-2871 (cell) (503)-626-2436 (fax) ___ Desktop_architects mailing list Desktop_architects@lists.osdl.org https://lists.osdl.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop_architects
Re: [Desktop_architects] Most wanted Application: Email
On 21-Dec-05, at 4:19 PM, Otto Wyss wrote: From the Linux desktop survey the most wanted application is an Emailer. So let’s get this problem solved, a cross-platform Emailer which is good enough to replace Outlook as the default Emailer for the masses. Yeah, let's get that problem solved! Why didn't anyone think of that before? =) I don't know from wyoGuide, or why it's a requirement (or why POP3 needs to be in a separate library (or, TBH, why there are implementation requirements at all, at this point)) but your description is not very far from either Thunderbird or post-Windows- port Evolution, as I read it. (Maybe Kmail, I dunno anything about it.) The Linux desktop survey didn't make it clear to me what specifically was wrong with the current offerings in terms of email, though I'll confess that I saw it was about enterprise deployment and started skimming. Clearly (?) there is some critical failing in the current Evo/Tbird/Kmail offerings, but I don't think it's anything on your current list, because that stuff is pretty much covered. Anyone know more? Mike ___ Desktop_architects mailing list Desktop_architects@lists.osdl.org https://lists.osdl.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop_architects
[Desktop_architects] Most wanted Application: Email
From the Linux desktop survey the most wanted application is an Emailer. So let’s get this problem solved, a cross-platform Emailer which is good enough to replace Outlook as the default Emailer for the masses. It doesn't have to look identical it has to look similar enough so an ordinary user can recognize its functionality. And it should have enough functionality so a power user can configure it for his liking. I propose about the following requirements: Functionality requirements: - it should be cross-platform running at least on Windows, Linux, MacOSX. - it has at least the base functionality of Outlook - it should have enough functionality to attract power users. Implementation requirements: - the GUI code is wyoGuide conformant - the POP3 handling is a separate library - an exchange server connection might be nice through a separate library - RSS protocol? - News protocol? Anyone interested in working out such specs? O. Wyss -- Application guidelines: http://freshmeat.net/projects/wyoguide/ Cross-platform Editor: http://freshmeat.net/projects/wyoeditor/ Cross-platform Filemanager http://freshmeat.net/projects/wyofiler/ ___ Desktop_architects mailing list Desktop_architects@lists.osdl.org https://lists.osdl.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop_architects
