[Desktop_architects] Desktop linux talk slides
> I'm giving talks about Desktop Linux and Wine this weekend. > A draft of the slides are up at > http://kegel.com/linux/scale4/ and Nothing about cross-platform? O. Wyss -- Application guidelines: http://wyoguide.sf.net/ ___ Desktop_architects mailing list Desktop_architects@lists.osdl.org https://lists.osdl.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop_architects
[Desktop_architects] "OSDL and the Linux kernel community" at the kernel mailing list
I though you might be interested in this http://uwsg.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/0601.3/1544.html You might read first Greg's blog http://www.kroah.com/log/2006/01/26/ to understand my message fully O. Wyss -- Application guidelines: http://wyoguide.sf.net/ ___ Desktop_architects mailing list Desktop_architects@lists.osdl.org https://lists.osdl.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop_architects
[Desktop_architects] Applications and pre-installed machines
> > of GoogleEarth and others of their applications? > > Why do you think nobody has? They've announced a Linux version for > 2006 (slipped from end-of-2005 originally), and just shipped their > Mac client a few weeks back. > So they are just late? I wonder why it takes them so much longer. For a correctly set up project it shouldn't need more than a few days to move it to other platforms except for special circumstances. I don't want to blame Google but would like to hear some reasons because these may give hints what might be wrong with the Linux desktop. Hints which probably nobody else has though of. > > "http://wyoguide.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/OSDL_survey_for_ISVs";. > > It might be a good idea to get some answers before the next DAM. > > Good idea. And this is a great starting point for the next OSDL survey. > BTW, I just saw some results from a Novell survey that showed the top > apps that are needed for the desktop. The results did not show email > clients or browsers, so these are probably "good enough". Rather, they > listed... > IMO best if you just add corresponding entries in the wiki page instead of listing them here. Add as much as you want and than the one composing this survey can just remove the less important once. > On a related note, is anyone aware of a place where users could go to > find open source alternatives to these applications? I'm not talking > about googling for projects or scanning the open source foundries, but a > place where a user could just find a Quickbooks or Autocad replacement? > I think the best place to find applications is still freshmeat.net. IMO it wouldn't need much work to implement a "find alternative for ..." function there. It might be a good idea someone makes them aware of this. Since I've already submitted so many feedback there IMO it's better someone else does. > > these users "why" in another survey (see > > http://wyoguide.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/OSDL_survey_for_users). > > Ditto. > As above, just add entries here you might find interesting. Maybe any application listed on freshmeat.net with a popularity above 2.00% should be included and rated with none-Linux applications. Just make sure users can voice any reason why or why not! Only then you get the reasons nobody has thought of. Besides special care should be taken to reach many users outsite the Linux community. See the list of contacts at http://wyoguide.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/NewsSites, feel free to use the list as well. O. Wyss -- Application guidelines: http://wyoguide.sf.net/ ___ Desktop_architects mailing list Desktop_architects@lists.osdl.org https://lists.osdl.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop_architects
[Desktop_architects] Applications and pre-installed machines
I think it's worth to point out some of issues in this thread: 1. Google, GoogleEarth Why hasn't anyone asked Google why they don't distribute a Linux version of GoogleEarth and others of their applications? Since Google likes to be known as the top OpenSource sponsor this should have happened a long time ago? So Google might have some very good answers. 2. Quoting: "One of the biggest desktop Linux inconveniences is the lack of support for existing proprietary applications from big vendors such as Adobe, Autodesk and Intuit" Inconvenience?! This is not an inconvenience - it is a deal-killer! I have been waiting to run a Linux desktop since I installed Red Hat 5.1 and I am no closer to my goal. I am an open-minded consulting engineer, but the lack of support from Adobe and AutoDesk absolutely makes Linux on MY desktop a non-starter. This is exactly what was meant with the first "top inhibitor of the Linux desktop adoption" in the OSDL survey. And "... makes Linux on MY desktop a non-starter" means this is the single most important issue the Linux desktop faces. Until you don't realize this there won't be any hope for the success of the Linux desktop. Also, there are simply not enough good desktop productivity tools out there. Many of the best-in-class Linux applications are "almost as good as their Windows counterparts." That isn't good enough, either. Sounds as if the poster was quoting me ;-) 3. What is stopping Adobe and Autodesk from porting to Linux I've talked to senior executives at companies like Adobe and Autodesk about this question. My understanding is that lack of market demand is the deal killer, period. So we are back to the start again, Linux needs a bigger market share and for that more applications, etc. It's obvious more applications don't come from the big guys so the desktop architects should concentrate on the small ISVs. "Jeremy, even if you gave me a CD with a perfect version of my software for Linux, I would stick it on a shelf. The current market opportunity doesn't justify any of the costs a new platform would demand; development is the least of it." Wine is important as an intermediate step in case of no other solutions but will never be accepted as the normal way. 4. Answer to "What is stopping ..." So this reinforces the strategies we came up with at the DAM: Make it easy for "little" 3rd party developers to take advantage of the Linux niche. The Linux marketshare may be too small for the big players, but it may be very enticing to isv's that have been squeezed out of Windows. For them, Linux may prove to be large enough and worth the investment as it continues to grow. Thus our approach at trying to make it easier for ISVs to port through docs, standards, etc. is a good approach. That's exactly I designed wyoGuide for. It might be not what you like but why not try to improve it so it may fit your purpose as well? 5. What *others* need in order to port to Linux? Maybe the right question to ask is not what's hindering Autodesk, etc. but rather what other companies are struggling in their markets and are desperate for any marketshare at all, and then ask what *they* need in order to port to Linux? Why not simply ask the ISVs? Why doesn't OSDL start another survey which asks all the big and small ISVs what the need to port their applications to Linux? Okay I'll start a list of questions for such a survey at "http://wyoguide.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/OSDL_survey_for_ISVs";. It might be a good idea to get some answers before the next DAM. 6. People using the linux desktop on the other hand, there are a non-negligible number of people using the linux desktop now. apparently they number in the millions if the 1-5% market share numbers are to be believed. You might remember that above 50% of the participants in the survey have Linux deployed while still requesting none-Linux applications. Since most of you don't believe my conclusions, it might be a good idea to ask these users "why" in another survey (see http://wyoguide.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/OSDL_survey_for_users). O. Wyss -- Application guidelines: http://wyoguide.sf.net/ ___ Desktop_architects mailing list Desktop_architects@lists.osdl.org https://lists.osdl.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop_architects
Re: What is your answer to solve the top inhibitor for the Linux desktop adoption? (was Re: [Desktop_architects] Most wanted Application: Email)
Dan Kegel wrote: On 12/28/05, Otto Wyss <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Sorry if this sounds like yet another promotion but this is a perfect sample where the use of wxWidgets/wyoGuide would be most profitable for _all_ of us. ... Wine is one possible solution for these ISVs but it's a tedious work with mixed success ... I don't think arguing about toolkits is a good use of this mailing list. I think you completely missed what I was saying. If I'd really argue about toolkits I'd say, just look at the developer's count. From your answer and from the absence of any other answer I've come to the conclusion it doesn't make sense to argue any further. O. Wyss -- Application guidelines: http://wyoguide.sf.net/ ___ Desktop_architects mailing list Desktop_architects@lists.osdl.org https://lists.osdl.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop_architects
[Desktop_architects] Cross-platform summary
I've come to the conclusion that it doesn't make sense to stay in this group since everything I can say is said. But before I leave I want to draw a summary about my participation: - It seems I've utterly failed to achieve anything regarding fixing the top inhibitor of the Linux desktop adoption. You aren't willing to accept my suggestion but you also have no other suggestions. At least the failure isn't total since some of you agree that cross-platform is the way to go. Albeit I'm rather sceptical that this is enough to cause any action. - It seems I've failed to achieve anything regarding fixing the top wished application e-mail. But I'm positive that the Thunderbird developers eventually realize what I said about the important user groups and I think they are able to make Thunderbird what it should be. Besides they have enough suggestions within their own support forums. - It seems I've successfully achieved that the importance of Wine for large organizations during the transition time is recognized and it seems that at least here an action is or will be taken. I haven't been able to discuss any other important issues for the success of the Linux desktop since it doesn't make sense as long as the cross-platform issue isn't safely on track. You seem to underestimate its importance and I seem unable to make you aware of it. Maybe it just needs some time until this idea can sink in. Therefore I think it's best for all of us if I leave now and let you work on what you think is best. Good bye O. Wyss -- Application guidelines: http://wyoguide.sf.net/ ___ Desktop_architects mailing list Desktop_architects@lists.osdl.org https://lists.osdl.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop_architects
Re: What is your answer to solve the top inhibitor for the Linux desktop adoption? (was Re: [Desktop_architects] Most wanted Application: Email)
Dan Kegel wrote: Finally, and this is something not discussed at the meeting, I'm walking through lists of successful small windows ISVs (e.g. http://www.microisv.com/archives/category/microisv-profile), testing their apps under Wine, reporting the wine bugs I find, and working to get the bugs resolved. ... Sorry if this sounds like yet another promotion but this is a perfect sample where the use of wxWidgets/wyoGuide would be most profitable for _all_ of us. These small Windows ISVs might not have the money or are willing to pay for QT, so wxWidgets is a cheap alternative. But if they use wxWidgets instead of MFC they can develop as if nothing has changed and produce Windows applications as before. It's not that difficult to switch from MFC to wxWidgets, they are quite similar, something which usually is considered a drawback from the Linux side. Anyway if these ISV use wxWidgets and also keep an eye on wyoGuide, which should not cost more that 1% of their overall work, they get a Linux port, a Mac port, etc for free. Wine is one possible solution for these ISVs but it's a tedious work with mixed success. Most of them think, bring me first some Linux customers and I'll see what I can do. I'm quite sure if any of these little ISVs could be persuaded to switch to wxWidgets/wyoGuide, it would be 10 times more effective for the Linux community. This is in no way advertisement for wxWidgets or wyoGuide, it's the simple truth: For these Windows ISVs this is the best solution to get cross-platform development. O. Wyss -- Application guidelines: http://wyoguide.sf.net/ ___ Desktop_architects mailing list Desktop_architects@lists.osdl.org https://lists.osdl.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop_architects
Re: [Desktop_architects] Most wanted Application: Email
Mike Shaver wrote: On 23-Dec-05, at 2:42 PM, Otto Wyss wrote: Anyway cross-platform is the way to go and will become the future way to You don't need to tell me about cross-platform development. I've been doing open source desktop apps for literally dozens of platforms (from OS/2 and VMS to OS X and GNOME to Windows and BeOS) from the same source tree for 7 years. And I haven't been "confronted by wyoGuide" yet, nor is it clear why I would be so confronted in the future, or why it would at all be relevant to me or my project. Then you probably know how much resources this cross-platform development the Mozilla Foundation costs. I don't know, I only read sometimes that Mozilla tries to get yet another cooperation or partnership to lower their resource consumption. I know I use less than 1% for my projects. Sure my projects are nowhere near the size of Mozilla but don't you think it might be a good idea to check it out if it's something useful for you? Assuming a "perfect" anything guarantees that the rest of the reasoning is of minimal interest to me, I must confess. I think you haven't understand my message, I'll repeat it with other words. Lets assume this perfect Thunderbird were created but doesn't fit well into the OpenOffice layout, a mail library would allow them to easily create a better fitting one. The question is now, do the Thunderbird developers prefer to help the OpenOffice developers or not? Why would the mail-client developers care what we tell them? (I mean, they might care a _little_ about what I tell them because I worked on a popular mail client for a while, but even then.) I'm quite sure that many developers would really love to get _any_ input how their projects can be improved. If you don't belong to this group you are free to discard any imput. On the other side you should ask yourself why the Linux Desktop Survey shows that many users don't consider Thunderbird a useful mailer for them. Why POP3 and not IMAP, to share read/replied/etc. state? And based on what did you decide that they are considering a smart phone which would use POP3? I'm missing a lot of steps in the reasoning here. Do you know what kind of mail access the users out in the world use? I don't either, I just estimate the vast majority has no alternative than POP3. If you don't trust this estimate, the Mozilla Foundation (or OSDL) should make a survey which provides this numbers. [off-topic] You didn't send this to the list, but that's probably for the best; I don't think there's a real problem being described here well enough to warrant discussion of a solution by that group, and to be _perfectly_ frank it sounds more like a play to drum up interest in wyoGuide than something that will contribute meaningfully to the success of the Linux desktop. Sorry I shouldn't have written this Off-Topic, I just thought someone might be interested in my ideas how a mailer should look like. But they don't belong here so simply forget it. I've sent this message first only to you since this list doesn't have a correct Reply-To set. O. Wyss -- Application guidelines: http://freshmeat.net/projects/wyoguide/ Cross-platform Editor: http://freshmeat.net/projects/wyoeditor/ Cross-platform Filemanager http://freshmeat.net/projects/wyofiler/ ___ Desktop_architects mailing list Desktop_architects@lists.osdl.org https://lists.osdl.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop_architects
What is your answer to solve the top inhibitor for the Linux desktop adoption? (was Re: [Desktop_architects] Most wanted Application: Email)
Dan Kegel wrote: On 12/23/05, Otto Wyss <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Anyway cross-platform is the way to go and will become the future way to develop applications, that's no questions. And wyoGuide will be the center of this movement. That seems unlikely. I'd suggest you stop trying to push wyoGuide in this forum. Dan, can you guess why I've done this little sneak in? Have you ever seriously looked into wyoGuide? Do you really know what wyoGuide is? Okay Dan, lets go back to the work this group was created for. What is _your_ answer to solve the top inhibitor for the Linux desktop adoption? O. Wyss -- Application guidelines: http://freshmeat.net/projects/wyoguide/ Cross-platform Editor: http://freshmeat.net/projects/wyoeditor/ Cross-platform Filemanager http://freshmeat.net/projects/wyofiler/ ___ Desktop_architects mailing list Desktop_architects@lists.osdl.org https://lists.osdl.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop_architects
Re: [Desktop_architects] Most wanted Application: Email
Mike Shaver wrote: On 21-Dec-05, at 4:19 PM, Otto Wyss wrote: From the Linux desktop survey the most wanted application is an Emailer. So let’s get this problem solved, a cross-platform Emailer which is good enough to replace Outlook as the default Emailer for the masses. Yeah, let's get that problem solved! Why didn't anyone think of that before? =) I don't know from wyoGuide, or why it's a requirement You can equally well read "cross-platform", I sneaked it in just to see the lists reactions ;-) Anyway cross-platform is the way to go and will become the future way to develop applications, that's no questions. And wyoGuide will be the center of this movement. As soon as the cross-platform movement takes off you will be confronted with wyoGuide, if you like it or not. Besides before you ask, wyoGuide does not imply wxWidgets, wxWidgets is just _one_ good way to code cross-platform (my personal preference doesn't matter). Please submit any questions regarding wyoGuide not here but to the wyoGuide users mailing list. (or why POP3 needs to be in a separate library Do you know how many mailers exist, 20 or 50 or even hundreds? And do you know how many mail access implementations exist? Please don't ask how many of these implementations have to be corrected if anything changes in the specs or other improvements are necessary. This library should have been created long, long ago! Building a mail library has another positive effect. Assume a "perfect" mailer is eventually written but it doesn't fit well into e.g. OpenOffice. With such a library OpenOffice could easily build a better suitable GUI within a very short time. A good sample how this works is wyoEditor and the Scintilla editing component. There are at least a few hundreds projects using Scintilla, all helping the others as well when Scintilla gets improved. (or, TBH, why there are implementation requirements at all, at this point)) but your description is not very far from either Thunderbird or post-Windows- port Evolution, as I read it. (Maybe Kmail, I dunno anything about it.) It should be our task to work out what requirements are needed and then give it to all the mailer project so they may (or may not) adjust their solutions. The Linux desktop survey didn't make it clear to me what specifically was wrong with the current offerings in terms of email, though I'll confess that I saw it was about enterprise deployment and started skimming. Clearly (?) there is some critical failing in the current Evo/Tbird/Kmail offerings, but I don't think it's anything on your current list, because that stuff is pretty much covered. First think a little bit who answered in this survey. I think that first Linux enthusiasts got attention and that they distributed it to their friends (maybe many of them using Windows). That means most of them are either pro Linux or at least neutral but know the applications on Windows. Another hint in that direction is the thread "What programs would you like to see ported to Linux?" at "http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/forumdisplay.php?f=2";. I'm quite sure that most of these people just have a POP3 (I estimate above 80%) and in the whole world I estimate above 90%. But a rather large part of these users already have a desktop and a laptop and a significant part has or considers buying a smart phone. Therefore POP3 handling with multiple clients is rapidly becoming a killer argument. But instead start fixing mail client after client, defining the API and building this library should be done. [off-topic] Is anyone interested in creating "yet another" mailer which diverts a little bit from the usual layout of the current mailers? It might not be suited as a mailer for the masses but it will give some input how a communication application might look like in the future. If you're interested contact me direct. [/off-topic] O. Wyss -- Application guidelines: http://freshmeat.net/projects/wyoguide/ Cross-platform Editor: http://freshmeat.net/projects/wyoeditor/ Cross-platform Filemanager http://freshmeat.net/projects/wyofiler/ ___ Desktop_architects mailing list Desktop_architects@lists.osdl.org https://lists.osdl.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop_architects
[Desktop_architects] Most wanted Application: Email
From the Linux desktop survey the most wanted application is an Emailer. So let’s get this problem solved, a cross-platform Emailer which is good enough to replace Outlook as the default Emailer for the masses. It doesn't have to look identical it has to look similar enough so an ordinary user can recognize its functionality. And it should have enough functionality so a power user can configure it for his liking. I propose about the following requirements: Functionality requirements: - it should be cross-platform running at least on Windows, Linux, MacOSX. - it has at least the base functionality of Outlook - it should have enough functionality to attract power users. Implementation requirements: - the GUI code is wyoGuide conformant - the POP3 handling is a separate library - an exchange server connection might be nice through a separate library - RSS protocol? - News protocol? Anyone interested in working out such specs? O. Wyss -- Application guidelines: http://freshmeat.net/projects/wyoguide/ Cross-platform Editor: http://freshmeat.net/projects/wyoeditor/ Cross-platform Filemanager http://freshmeat.net/projects/wyofiler/ ___ Desktop_architects mailing list Desktop_architects@lists.osdl.org https://lists.osdl.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop_architects
Re: [Usability] Re: [Desktop_architects] Printing dialog and GNOME (Summit mockups)
Michael Sweet wrote: Does the KDE HIG specify button order? The KDE and FLTK HIGs put the cancel button on the right while Apple's HUG puts it on the left. Microsoft's guidelines are all over the place - they show examples with the buttons along the right side of the dialog as well as on the bottom - the cancel button is either the rightmost or second from the bottom. Cross-platform the Cancel button is the right most button of the left-to-right order or the lowest button of the top-to-bottom order. See http://wyoguide.sourceforge.net/guidelines/dialogs.html#buttons . This doesn't suits the MacOSX very well but IMO it's not worth to code different for a platform in this case. O. Wyss -- Application guidelines: http://freshmeat.net/projects/wyoguide/ Cross-platform Editor: http://freshmeat.net/projects/wyoeditor/ Cross-platform Filemanager http://freshmeat.net/projects/wyofiler/ ___ Desktop_architects mailing list Desktop_architects@lists.osdl.org https://lists.osdl.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop_architects
Re: [Desktop_architects] Re: Printing dialog and GNOME
Hubert Figuiere wrote: Not that I advocate to put video drivers in the kernel Framebuffer drivers are, what's more interesting is why aren't these drivers used more for display stuff? Aren't framebuffers well suited or what? O. Wyss -- Application guidelines: http://freshmeat.net/projects/wyoguide/ Cross-platform Editor: http://freshmeat.net/projects/wyoeditor/ Cross-platform Filemanager http://freshmeat.net/projects/wyofiler/ ___ Desktop_architects mailing list Desktop_architects@lists.osdl.org https://lists.osdl.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop_architects
Developers don't know what users need (was Re: [Desktop_architects] Printing dialog and GNOME)
Linus Torvalds wrote: The fact is, developers don't know what their users are going to need. That's a very fundamental issue in any software engineering. The other, almost as fundamental issue, is that asking users is usually not very productive either, because (a) different users will give you different answers and (b) users often don't even know. So when you ask "which flexibilities do you consider important", you're pretty much BY DEFINITION asking for something senseless. It's akin to asking how many angels dance on the head of a pin. But the fact that users and developers don't know does NOT mean that customization is bad. Quite the reverse. It means that defaults make sense, but since you don't know what they'll be doing, you should always strive to have ways to let _them_ make the choice when they have some reason the default doesn't agree with them. Those users may not know before-hand (which is why asking them is pointless), but people actually _like_ twiddling around, changing fonts and personalizing their machine. It may not be "productive", but it sure as hell is user-friendly. Sorry if I interrupt here but IMO this is a very fundamental concept developers usually just don't give enough thinking. It is important to recognize that others may think completely different. Unfortunately I also don't know an simple solution how this can be done better. Maybe a developer should first assume he has done something wrong if a user asks a question. I also like the simple configuration which just does everything right but I also get annoyed if I can't do what I want. So more or less important is almost impossible to decide since anybody defines it different. If you have to decide between more important or less, still allow everything but hide the "less" important through an additional level of indirection. So the one who wants control of everything can while the other doesn't see it. O. Wyss -- Application guidelines: http://freshmeat.net/projects/wyoguide/ Cross-platform Editor: http://freshmeat.net/projects/wyoeditor/ Cross-platform Filemanager http://freshmeat.net/projects/wyofiler/ ___ Desktop_architects mailing list Desktop_architects@lists.osdl.org https://lists.osdl.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop_architects
