Re: [Finale] Expression positioning
Except, the implementation is a little weird: Usually when you notice that the syllable doesn't fit, you are already entering it. Hence, the fourth triangle should ideally move the current and all following syllables. Instead it moves only the following syls and I find this extremely counter-productive. Johannes Allen Fisher schrieb: The fourth triangle effects the next syllable to be entered. It allows you to shift your lyric baseline mid-system as you type, to get out of the way of that low G you wrote for the altos... On 6/7/05 11:02 AM, "David W. Fenton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said this: the fourth triangle does nothing of the sort! -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Expression positioning
On Jun 7, 2005, at 9:30 AM, Allen Fisher wrote: The fourth triangle effects the next syllable to be entered. It allows you to shift your lyric baseline mid-system as you type, to get out of the way of that low G you wrote for the altos... Hmm, even << I >> know that's bad engraving practice; no wonder I never found a use for it. Christopher (who is cranky about something else, but is taking it out on the list because the person he wants to yell at isn't here) ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Expression positioning
On Jun 7, 2005, at 9:30 AM, Allen Fisher wrote:The fourth triangle effects the next syllable to be entered. It allows youto shift your lyric baseline mid-system as you type, to get out of the wayof that low G you wrote for the altos...Amazing things one can learn on this list. tank you, Allen.Chuck Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Expression positioning
The fourth triangle effects the next syllable to be entered. It allows you to shift your lyric baseline mid-system as you type, to get out of the way of that low G you wrote for the altos... On 6/7/05 11:02 AM, "David W. Fenton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said this: > the fourth > triangle does nothing of the sort! -- Allen J. Fisher Quality Assurance Developer MakeMusic! Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.makemusic.com Tax dollars and miracles let the weirdest people date. --John Popper ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Expression positioning
On 7 Jun 2005 at 8:39, Christopher Smith wrote: > On Jun 6, 2005, at 4:29 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: > > > > Doesn't the last triangle have an effect on the selected syllable? > > I think so, which is why I have little use for it. Why not just drag > the syllable directly, instead of clicking to select it then dragging > the arrow? Well, it does mean you don't have to switch modes of operation. I also find the fact that you have to click twice on a syllable (not doubleclick) to get the two handles to be annoying. If you're doing page layout and need to nudge a single syllable, it seems far easier to do it with the triangle than by changing mode on the Lyrics menu, clicking twice, moving your syllable, then changing back to the mode where the triangles appear. Of course, now that I've just tried it, I see that the fourth triangle does nothing of the sort! Who knows! > > This is not so much of a problem for expressions/articulations that > > have no effect on playback (such as bowing marks), but the UI for > > articulations, in particular, doesn't give much help to you with > > distinguishing them, unless there's been some change to the > > articulations dialog in 2004+ that is analogous to the addition of > > display descriptions for expressions. > > I think it WAS in 2004 (I'm not sure, because I didn't use it much > because of the speed issues on Mac) that they introduced non-printing > text on SHAPE articulations. It's not as convenient as the expression > descriptions, because you have to create an articulation as a shape > instead of just as a character, and it's buried a few levels down, and > it's rather fussy compared with the elegant ease of the expressions > dialogue box, but it IS there. > > On the other hand, once you create an articulation (say, an accent > that always goes above the note for divisi passages) you never have to > touch the darn thing again if you make it part of your default file. That's assuming that there are no changes in the next version of Finale that make the old articulation definitions less than optimal, and requiring changes. And that you don't learn new things that cause you to want to change your the way some of your articulations behave, such as a change to your basic "house style" that dictates something different. If you've got multiple definitions that are supposed to look the same onscreen, then you've got to alter all of them. My proposal is for a parent definition where you alter the settings once, and those changes cascade through to all the child object definitions (except those that override the setting you've changed or that are defined not to inherit changes to the parent). -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Expression positioning
On Jun 6, 2005, at 4:29 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: Doesn't the last triangle have an effect on the selected syllable? I think so, which is why I have little use for it. Why not just drag the syllable directly, instead of clicking to select it then dragging the arrow? This is not so much of a problem for expressions/articulations that have no effect on playback (such as bowing marks), but the UI for articulations, in particular, doesn't give much help to you with distinguishing them, unless there's been some change to the articulations dialog in 2004+ that is analogous to the addition of display descriptions for expressions. I think it WAS in 2004 (I'm not sure, because I didn't use it much because of the speed issues on Mac) that they introduced non-printing text on SHAPE articulations. It's not as convenient as the expression descriptions, because you have to create an articulation as a shape instead of just as a character, and it's buried a few levels down, and it's rather fussy compared with the elegant ease of the expressions dialogue box, but it IS there. On the other hand, once you create an articulation (say, an accent that always goes above the note for divisi passages) you never have to touch the darn thing again if you make it part of your default file. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Expression positioning
Yes, the interface is identical (but isn't it the SECOND last one that does what you say? Yes, I think that's what David meant. I've never found a use for the last triangle.) That may be the biggest mystery (for me) in my long experience with Finale! Chuck Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Expression positioning
On 6 Jun 2005 at 16:11, Christopher Smith wrote: > On Jun 6, 2005, at 3:30 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: > > > > I assume you have the same number of options with multiple triangles > > that move the baseline in different contexts, as with lyrics, where > > the last triangle moves the baseline for a single system in page > > view? > > Yes, the interface is identical (but isn't it the SECOND last one that > does what you say? I've never found a use for the last triangle.) You may be right -- I don't do lyrics often enough for that question to be something I can answer without trying it out. Doesn't the last triangle have an effect on the selected syllable? > >> The drawback with this is that very low notes in the other staves > >> will NOT have their dynamics automatically pushed down, as the > >> default presently is. You will have to nudge or drag them manually. > > > > In most pieces, and in most staves, this would surely not be a > > terrible problem. I foresee it as a moderate issue only with the > > left hand of piano parts. > > Depending on where you set your lower baseline, it is also a problem > for clarinet, bass trombone, tuba, bassoon, and low trumpet parts. I > like the auto avoidance myself, and would have no problem duplicating > expressions and assigning the metatools to, say, the row of keys below > the equivalents for the regular dynamics. Well, as I said, I find the idea of duplicating expressions/articulations just for maintaining different default positioning definitions to be odious, as it leads to enormous long- term maintenance problems for your libraries. At least, for me. Indeed, it's a situation that's very similar to something I posted about in an Access database newsgroup earlier today: One project I took over in 2000 had something like 60 or 70 reports. I reduced that to 6 or 7 reports, because it was really just 6 or 7 identical reports tied to different data sets. This cost them a lot in development time, but in long-term maintenance it was a huge win, as, since that time, they would have added another 20*7 reports if they'd continued doing it the old way, when all they do now is add a record to a data table in order to get the new set of reports. My proposal for sub-classing doesn't work exactly the same way, but it *does* have the same long-term maintenance benefit, as altering, say, the default velocity of a dynamic marking or the length of your staccato would be done in only one place instead of in all the multiple instances you've created to handle different situations. This is not so much of a problem for expressions/articulations that have no effect on playback (such as bowing marks), but the UI for articulations, in particular, doesn't give much help to you with distinguishing them, unless there's been some change to the articulations dialog in 2004+ that is analogous to the addition of display descriptions for expressions. -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Expression positioning
On Jun 6, 2005, at 3:30 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: I assume you have the same number of options with multiple triangles that move the baseline in different contexts, as with lyrics, where the last triangle moves the baseline for a single system in page view? Yes, the interface is identical (but isn't it the SECOND last one that does what you say? I've never found a use for the last triangle.) The drawback with this is that very low notes in the other staves will NOT have their dynamics automatically pushed down, as the default presently is. You will have to nudge or drag them manually. In most pieces, and in most staves, this would surely not be a terrible problem. I foresee it as a moderate issue only with the left hand of piano parts. Depending on where you set your lower baseline, it is also a problem for clarinet, bass trombone, tuba, bassoon, and low trumpet parts. I like the auto avoidance myself, and would have no problem duplicating expressions and assigning the metatools to, say, the row of keys below the equivalents for the regular dynamics. Of course, don't the dynamics for a piano part go *between* the staves, when the hands are not using independent dynamic levels? Yep, so not a problem for you in many cases. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Expression positioning
On 6 Jun 2005 at 15:04, Christopher Smith wrote: > On Jun 6, 2005, at 2:23 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: > > > > Either that, or you should be able to position the dynamics above or > > below the staff. This seems especially so if, as I understand from > > the description, the same UI for horizontal baseline positioning > > that is found with lyrics is being re-used for expressions. > > Close, except you have TWO baselines for expressions (above and > below), and only one for each chorus/verse/section of lyrics. I assume you have the same number of options with multiple triangles that move the baseline in different contexts, as with lyrics, where the last triangle moves the baseline for a single system in page view? > > That's a good > > thing, but it's *bad* that it works differently (i.e., you can't > > drag the baseleline above the staff). > > > > You are mistaken here, you can drag the lower baseline above the > staff, and the dynamic will go with it, but not if (as is the default > definition) the dynamic is set to be on the below-the-staff baseline > OR the entry, and it is a note-attached expression. . . . I figured this out from further posts after I sent mine in. > . . . This option is > available and useful in order to prevent collisions with very low > notes by ensuring that the dynamic will always be below the note. If > it is set to be ONLY on the below-the-staff baseline, then you can > drag the baseling wherever you wish and it will affect all items set > to it. And the only thing that you lose is the automatic collision avoidance? If it's still draggable, that means you'd only have to handle the very low exceptions, rather than needing to maintain two sets of expression definitions. To me, the time saved in positioning those exceptions (in most pieces) would not be worth the trouble of needing to maintain two sets of expression definitions (am I the only person who needs to constantly adjust expression/articulation definitions as new features are introduced in Finale, and as I learn more and more about how to get the most out of Finale?). > A simple way to have dynamics ABOVE the staff for voices and BELOW the > staff for instruments without having two different sets is this: you > set the dynamics to vertically align to the BELOW the staff baseline, > but NOT below the staff or entry. Then you drag the second arrow from > the left above the choral staff. All the dynamics set to that baseline > FOR THAT STAFF ONLY will follow, while the ones on the other staves > will stay where the left-most arrow is positioned. That sounds very good. > The drawback with this is that very low notes in the other staves will > NOT have their dynamics automatically pushed down, as the default > presently is. You will have to nudge or drag them manually. In most pieces, and in most staves, this would surely not be a terrible problem. I foresee it as a moderate issue only with the left hand of piano parts. Of course, don't the dynamics for a piano part go *between* the staves, when the hands are not using independent dynamic levels? -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Expression positioning
On Jun 6, 2005, at 2:23 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: Either that, or you should be able to position the dynamics above or below the staff. This seems especially so if, as I understand from the description, the same UI for horizontal baseline positioning that is found with lyrics is being re-used for expressions. Close, except you have TWO baselines for expressions (above and below), and only one for each chorus/verse/section of lyrics. That's a good thing, but it's *bad* that it works differently (i.e., you can't drag the baseleline above the staff). You are mistaken here, you can drag the lower baseline above the staff, and the dynamic will go with it, but not if (as is the default definition) the dynamic is set to be on the below-the-staff baseline OR the entry, and it is a note-attached expression. This option is available and useful in order to prevent collisions with very low notes by ensuring that the dynamic will always be below the note. If it is set to be ONLY on the below-the-staff baseline, then you can drag the baseling wherever you wish and it will affect all items set to it. A simple way to have dynamics ABOVE the staff for voices and BELOW the staff for instruments without having two different sets is this: you set the dynamics to vertically align to the BELOW the staff baseline, but NOT below the staff or entry. Then you drag the second arrow from the left above the choral staff. All the dynamics set to that baseline FOR THAT STAFF ONLY will follow, while the ones on the other staves will stay where the left-most arrow is positioned. The drawback with this is that very low notes in the other staves will NOT have their dynamics automatically pushed down, as the default presently is. You will have to nudge or drag them manually. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Expression positioning
On 6 Jun 2005 at 8:44, Darcy James Argue wrote: > You need to use a separate set of dynamics for vocal staves, defined > to go above the staff instead of below. > > There is a Choral Dynamics library (already set up for placement above > the staff) in the Maestro Font folder inside your Libraries folder. > Load that library, and use those dynamics for the vocal staff As wonderful as the automatic positioning of expressions is, it seems clear to me from these instructions that Finale still remains in the dark ages of software design because, once again, a feature is implemented that requires proliferation of object definitions. I have said it a million times: you should define a dynamic marking once, and then be able to sub-class it so that you can have different versions of it that have properties that over-ride those of the basic dynamic mark definition. Either that, or you should be able to position the dynamics above or below the staff. This seems especially so if, as I understand from the description, the same UI for horizontal baseline positioning that is found with lyrics is being re-used for expressions. That's a good thing, but it's *bad* that it works differently (i.e., you can't drag the baseleline above the staff). I have always felt that the need to proliferate expression and articulation definitions is a massive flaw in Finale, even with the ability since 2K4 to at least be able to distinguish the different versions of the expressions (though I've not heard anything about how one distinguishes articulations -- still nothing?). Finale data is stored in a database, and individual expressions can be dragged around onscreen, so there's already somewhere in the data storage hierarchy that stores individual positioning information. It seems to me that it shouldn't be all that difficult (and I say this as someone who makes his living as a database application programmer) to add a higher level of the hierarchy, that serves as a master definition. It doesn't even require the creation of a new data table, just the addition of a new field in the existing definition that points to a parent object (in database terms, a self-join). As for UI, it could be as simple as: - duplicate an existing expression/articulation definition - in the dialog defining that new item, there's a check box that says "maintain link to source definition." This could be turned off by default, so that anyone who doesn't like this idea could continue to use expression/articulation definitions just as they always have. Better still would be if the UI also indicated what the parent object was, and had some easy way to inspect its properties. Perhaps it would be better if any properties that were altered from the parent were indicated in a different color in the properties dialog. It would also be good if parent definitions were distinguished in the expression/articulation dialogs in some way so you would realize those were not deletable without causing cascading consequences. Comments welcome, and if there's enough interest and we can work it into something clear that many people find useful, I'll forward it to MM as a feature suggestion. -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Expression positioning
AHA! That did the trick. Thanks very much, Darcy. One question though: where do I (did you) find this information? Is it somewhere in the manual? - Original Message - From: "Darcy James Argue" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 4:17 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] Expression positioning > Barbara, > > The triangles only affect the vertical positioning of > *baseline-aligned* expressions. You cannot use them to move > expressions above the staff if your expressions are set to, e.g., > "below note" or "below staff baseline or entry" (the default setting). > That's why you need to use the Choral Dynamics library. > > - Darcy > - > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Brooklyn, NY > > > On 06 Jun 2005, at 10:10 AM, Barbara Touburg wrote: > > > OK, but what are the triangles there for then?? > > > > The manual says: > > "Drag the positioning triangles to adjust the vertical positioning of > > the > > expressions. These triangles are handles that control the baseline for > > the > > expressions (the invisible line against which the bottoms of the > > letters > > align). Dragging the leftmost triangle up or down moves the baseline > > for > > these expressions vertically, affecting the entire piece. The second > > triangle sets the baseline for expressions for this staff only. The > > third > > triangle, whose effect is only visible in Page View, sets the baseline > > for > > this staff in this system only. The rightmost triangle sets the > > baseline for > > the next expression you enter." > > > > Dragging the second triangle up just does not work (for me). The > > expressions > > stay below the staff. Am I missing something? I don't get it. > > > > > > - Original Message - > > From: "dhbailey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: > > Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 2:22 PM > > Subject: Re: [Finale] Expression positioning > > > > > >> Barbara Touburg wrote: > >> > >>> I'm trying to put expression marks _above_ a vocal staff, but the > >>> positioning triangles just won't work. Both for note positioning and > > measure > >>> positioning the expressions are defined to go below the staff > >>> baseline > > (or > >>> entry) and I want to drag them up for that vocal staff. The lyrics > >>> positioning triangles work just fine. What am I (or is Finale) doing > > wrong? > >>> > >> > >> For expressions, I click to place and then drag to where I want them, > >> above or below the staff. > >> > >> Your best bet, as far as my experience goes, if you want them all > >> above > >> the staff, is to go through and edit those you'll be using so they > >> will > >> automatically be placed above the staff. > >> > >> > >> -- > >> David H. Bailey > >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> ___ > >> Finale mailing list > >> Finale@shsu.edu > >> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > >> > > > > ___ > > Finale mailing list > > Finale@shsu.edu > > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > > > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Expression positioning
On Jun 6, 2005, at 10:19 AM, Darcy James Argue wrote: On 06 Jun 2005, at 9:55 AM, Christopher Smith wrote: A quick and dirty solution for just one file with dynamics already entered (with no other non-choral instruments with different requirements to mess things up) would be to just drag the below-the-staff-baseline up, over the staff. Actually, that won't work with Finale's default dynamics. Expressions set to "Below Staff Baseline or Entry" cannot be dragged above the staff using the triangles. You really do have to use separate choral dynamics defined for above-staff placement. Aha! It's because they are set to "Below-staff baseline OR ENTRY". If they were set to "Below-staff baseline" only, then my method works. Actually, if she has already entered a whole cartload of dynamics for the whole piece and needs to move them, then she should just edit the Note Positioning (or Measure Positioning, depending on which entry she used) to change it to Above Staff Baseline for the eight or so dynamics she probalby uses in the work. Barbara, if you are reading, here it is for expressions already entered. Double click on a dynamic, say the "f". If it looked red, it is a Note-assigned expression, if it looked green, it is Measure Assigned. Click the box that corresponds to the kind of positioning you want to edit. For Vertical Positioning, change the drop-down menu to "Above Staff Baseline or Entry" Close the dialogue boxes. The "f" will now be above the measure. Repeat for the other dynamics that appear in the work. No use editing any others, if they are not used. In the Expression menu, select "Adjust Above Staff Baseline". Your arrows will now be the ones that adjust this expression. If you have already dragged the 'F" around, you might want to clear the manual dragging. Drag a rubber-band box around all the expressions that you want to clear positioining for (or hit control A to select all) and hit Clear on a Mac (I think on PC it is backspace, but I am not sure. One deletes, the other clears positioning.) There you go. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Expression positioning
On 06 Jun 2005, at 10:18 AM, dhbailey wrote: I figure I've done more profitable work simply clicking and dragging than messing around trying to get the triangles to do that job for me. And I've never wanted all my expressions exactly the same distance above or below the staff, since the music I work on has jagged edges above and below the staff. That's what "Below staff baseline or entry" (or "Above staff baseline or entry") is for. The dynamics appear at the same distance above or below the staff _unless_ there would be a collision with the attached note -- then they adjust down (or up) to make room for the note. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Expression positioning
On 06 Jun 2005, at 9:55 AM, Christopher Smith wrote: A quick and dirty solution for just one file with dynamics already entered (with no other non-choral instruments with different requirements to mess things up) would be to just drag the below-the-staff-baseline up, over the staff. Actually, that won't work with Finale's default dynamics. Expressions set to "Below Staff Baseline or Entry" cannot be dragged above the staff using the triangles. You really do have to use separate choral dynamics defined for above-staff placement. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Expression positioning
Barbara Touburg wrote: OK, but what are the triangles there for then?? The manual says: "Drag the positioning triangles to adjust the vertical positioning of the expressions. These triangles are handles that control the baseline for the expressions (the invisible line against which the bottoms of the letters align). Dragging the leftmost triangle up or down moves the baseline for these expressions vertically, affecting the entire piece. The second triangle sets the baseline for expressions for this staff only. The third triangle, whose effect is only visible in Page View, sets the baseline for this staff in this system only. The rightmost triangle sets the baseline for the next expression you enter." Dragging the second triangle up just does not work (for me). The expressions stay below the staff. Am I missing something? I don't get it. The triangles and I have never been more than disgruntled fellow-workers who would rather be anywhere else but next to each other. I try to avoid messing with them and work hard so they don't screw up my work. :-) I figure I've done more profitable work simply clicking and dragging than messing around trying to get the triangles to do that job for me. And I've never wanted all my expressions exactly the same distance above or below the staff, since the music I work on has jagged edges above and below the staff. I place the expressions where they look best and have done with it. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Expression positioning
Barbara, The triangles only affect the vertical positioning of *baseline-aligned* expressions. You cannot use them to move expressions above the staff if your expressions are set to, e.g., "below note" or "below staff baseline or entry" (the default setting). That's why you need to use the Choral Dynamics library. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 06 Jun 2005, at 10:10 AM, Barbara Touburg wrote: OK, but what are the triangles there for then?? The manual says: "Drag the positioning triangles to adjust the vertical positioning of the expressions. These triangles are handles that control the baseline for the expressions (the invisible line against which the bottoms of the letters align). Dragging the leftmost triangle up or down moves the baseline for these expressions vertically, affecting the entire piece. The second triangle sets the baseline for expressions for this staff only. The third triangle, whose effect is only visible in Page View, sets the baseline for this staff in this system only. The rightmost triangle sets the baseline for the next expression you enter." Dragging the second triangle up just does not work (for me). The expressions stay below the staff. Am I missing something? I don't get it. - Original Message - From: "dhbailey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 2:22 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] Expression positioning Barbara Touburg wrote: I'm trying to put expression marks _above_ a vocal staff, but the positioning triangles just won't work. Both for note positioning and measure positioning the expressions are defined to go below the staff baseline (or entry) and I want to drag them up for that vocal staff. The lyrics positioning triangles work just fine. What am I (or is Finale) doing wrong? For expressions, I click to place and then drag to where I want them, above or below the staff. Your best bet, as far as my experience goes, if you want them all above the staff, is to go through and edit those you'll be using so they will automatically be placed above the staff. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Expression positioning
OK, but what are the triangles there for then?? The manual says: "Drag the positioning triangles to adjust the vertical positioning of the expressions. These triangles are handles that control the baseline for the expressions (the invisible line against which the bottoms of the letters align). Dragging the leftmost triangle up or down moves the baseline for these expressions vertically, affecting the entire piece. The second triangle sets the baseline for expressions for this staff only. The third triangle, whose effect is only visible in Page View, sets the baseline for this staff in this system only. The rightmost triangle sets the baseline for the next expression you enter." Dragging the second triangle up just does not work (for me). The expressions stay below the staff. Am I missing something? I don't get it. - Original Message - From: "dhbailey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 2:22 PM Subject: Re: [Finale] Expression positioning > Barbara Touburg wrote: > > > I'm trying to put expression marks _above_ a vocal staff, but the > > positioning triangles just won't work. Both for note positioning and measure > > positioning the expressions are defined to go below the staff baseline (or > > entry) and I want to drag them up for that vocal staff. The lyrics > > positioning triangles work just fine. What am I (or is Finale) doing wrong? > > > > For expressions, I click to place and then drag to where I want them, > above or below the staff. > > Your best bet, as far as my experience goes, if you want them all above > the staff, is to go through and edit those you'll be using so they will > automatically be placed above the staff. > > > -- > David H. Bailey > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Expression positioning
A quick and dirty solution for just one file with dynamics already entered (with no other non-choral instruments with different requirements to mess things up) would be to just drag the below-the-staff-baseline up, over the staff. This beats going in and changing the automatic positioning for every dynamic. But for sure the best solution is yours, Darcy. Christopher On Jun 6, 2005, at 8:44 AM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Barbara, You need to use a separate set of dynamics for vocal staves, defined to go above the staff instead of below. There is a Choral Dynamics library (already set up for placement above the staff) in the Maestro Font folder inside your Libraries folder. Load that library, and use those dynamics for the vocal staff - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 06 Jun 2005, at 7:55 AM, Barbara Touburg wrote: I'm trying to put expression marks _above_ a vocal staff, but the positioning triangles just won't work. Both for note positioning and measure positioning the expressions are defined to go below the staff baseline (or entry) and I want to drag them up for that vocal staff. The lyrics positioning triangles work just fine. What am I (or is Finale) doing wrong? Barbara NL (Finale 2005a, Win2000SP4) ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Expression positioning
Barbara, You need to use a separate set of dynamics for vocal staves, defined to go above the staff instead of below. There is a Choral Dynamics library (already set up for placement above the staff) in the Maestro Font folder inside your Libraries folder. Load that library, and use those dynamics for the vocal staff - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 06 Jun 2005, at 7:55 AM, Barbara Touburg wrote: I'm trying to put expression marks _above_ a vocal staff, but the positioning triangles just won't work. Both for note positioning and measure positioning the expressions are defined to go below the staff baseline (or entry) and I want to drag them up for that vocal staff. The lyrics positioning triangles work just fine. What am I (or is Finale) doing wrong? Barbara NL (Finale 2005a, Win2000SP4) ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Expression positioning
Dag Barbara.. Which set of triangles are you using? You can set them to either above the staff or below the staff through the expressions dropdown list. The expressions that are attached to above the staff will be handled by the upper set of triangles, and those from below the staff by the lower set of triangles. For personal purposes, I have created a separate set of expressions expressly for vocal staves for precisely that reason. Mine are all attached to above the barline or staff with the following measures. Additional entry offset : 0.020285, and Additional baseline offset : -0.62618. I find that I have much better control of the whole situation. Just put a little note to yourself in the Description Box to let you know what it is all about Groetjes uit ergens anders. Gregory On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 14:55:41 +0300, Barbara Touburg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I'm trying to put expression marks _above_ a vocal staff, but the positioning triangles just won't work. Both for note positioning and measure positioning the expressions are defined to go below the staff baseline (or entry) and I want to drag them up for that vocal staff. The lyrics positioning triangles work just fine. What am I (or is Finale) doing wrong? Barbara NL (Finale 2005a, Win2000SP4) ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Expression positioning
Barbara Touburg wrote: I'm trying to put expression marks _above_ a vocal staff, but the positioning triangles just won't work. Both for note positioning and measure positioning the expressions are defined to go below the staff baseline (or entry) and I want to drag them up for that vocal staff. The lyrics positioning triangles work just fine. What am I (or is Finale) doing wrong? For expressions, I click to place and then drag to where I want them, above or below the staff. Your best bet, as far as my experience goes, if you want them all above the staff, is to go through and edit those you'll be using so they will automatically be placed above the staff. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Expression positioning
I'm trying to put expression marks _above_ a vocal staff, but the positioning triangles just won't work. Both for note positioning and measure positioning the expressions are defined to go below the staff baseline (or entry) and I want to drag them up for that vocal staff. The lyrics positioning triangles work just fine. What am I (or is Finale) doing wrong? Barbara NL (Finale 2005a, Win2000SP4) ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Expression positioning bug
At 02:46 AM 09/30/2004, Michael Cook wrote: >At 16:19 -0400 29/09/2004, Aaron Sherber wrote: >>Personally, I would prefer that it work the way it looks like it >>ought to. Bottom Note position ought to line up the baselines of the >>expression and the bottom notehead, taking into account the >>additional entry offset value. > >I would have preferred this too. Just one problem: in order to import >older files correctly, the functionality of the vertical positioning >setting presently called "Top Note" would have to be kept, since >expressions in older files work this way. I don't think there would be a problem, since the functionality of Top Note would remain the same -- it's just the initial positioning option for new instances of the expression that would change. When I currently open an older file in 2004, the expression definition is set to Top Note, additional offset 0, and each instance of the expression has a 'Distance From Alignment Point' value in the Note Expression Assignment box. This is all fine -- I'm just saying that now when I plop down a new instance of that expression, the offset actually *should* be 0, so that the baseline of the expression lines up with the notehead. I don't think any of this is inconsistent. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Expression positioning bug
At 16:19 -0400 29/09/2004, Aaron Sherber wrote: Then the graphic which displays to illustrate what it means is wrong. yes, you're right. Personally, I would prefer that it work the way it looks like it ought to. Bottom Note position ought to line up the baselines of the expression and the bottom notehead, taking into account the additional entry offset value. I would have preferred this too. Just one problem: in order to import older files correctly, the functionality of the vertical positioning setting presently called "Top Note" would have to be kept, since expressions in older files work this way. This setting would then have to have a different name. I doubt that this is going to change now, but you could try annoying Winsupport about it - who knows? Best wishes, Michael Cook ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Expression positioning bug
At 03:25 PM 09/29/2004, Michael Cook wrote: >This is one of those curious Finale "features". I was afraid someone was going to say that. >While we were >beta-testing 2004 I chanced on this and reported it as a bug, but it >is actually meant to work that way. Then the graphic which displays to illustrate what it means is wrong. >Logically (for me at least!) all three settings deserve to be called >"Vertical Click Position", since that is where the expression does >appear in the score. The three settings would then be called: > >Vertical Click Position (relative to top note) >Vertical Click Position (relative to bottom note) >Vertical Click Position (relative to top staff line) Yes, they're all Vertical Click Position, and then I would add a set of radio buttons Attach to Top Note | Bottom Note | Staff (which would be greyed out for other positioning options). The fact that it may technically be the top staff line is irrelevant, I think. If this is WAD, it's a terrible misnomer, since Top Note and Bottom Note positions aren't actually *positions* at all -- they're attachment points. And why should Top Note be an attachment point but Above Entry is a position? Personally, I would prefer that it work the way it looks like it ought to. Bottom Note position ought to line up the baselines of the expression and the bottom notehead, taking into account the additional entry offset value. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Expression positioning bug
This is one of those curious Finale "features". While we were beta-testing 2004 I chanced on this and reported it as a bug, but it is actually meant to work that way. The three settings Top Note, Bottom Note and Vertical Click Position are designed so that in each of the three cases the expression will be entered at the height where the user clicks. At this point, there is no visible difference between the three settings. If, after clicking the expression in the score, the user presses the "clear" (or backspace) key, the expression will jump to either the top note, the bottom note or the top staff line. If you import an older Finale file into Finale 2004 or 2005, the expressions will have the setting "Top Note". Logically (for me at least!) all three settings deserve to be called "Vertical Click Position", since that is where the expression does appear in the score. The three settings would then be called: Vertical Click Position (relative to top note) Vertical Click Position (relative to bottom note) Vertical Click Position (relative to top staff line) Another possibility would be to rename the setting that is at present called "Vertical Click Position" to "Top Staff Line", but this wouldn't make it clear that this setting (and the "Top Note" and "Bottom Note" settings) functions in a different way from the other expression positioning settings. Maybe someone else has a good suggestion for concise names for the expression positioning settings that really give the user a clear idea as to how these settings function? Michael Cook WinFin2004b When I create a note expression with vertical positioning set to top note or bottom note and then place that expression in the score with a metatool, the expression actually places itself vertically at the click position. I have to right-click and choose Remove Manual Adjustments to get the expression to actually position itself relative to top/bottom note as requested. (The difference from defining vertical position as Vertical Click Position is that an expression attached to top/bottom note will move vertically if the note is moved.) Can anyone confirm this? Is it fixed in 2005? Thanks, Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Expression positioning bug
At 11:47 AM 09/29/2004, Jari Williamsson wrote: >Allen Fisher writes: > >> What am I missing? > >Perhaps you didn't apply the expression in the document using a >metatool? Actually, you can see the same thing even if you apply the expression using the expression selection dialog. The Note Expression Assignment dialog shows a vertical displacement from the alignment point corresponding to where you clicked, whereas the same dialog for an expression set to "Below Staff Baseline or Entry" (for example) shows a vertical displacement of 0 regardless of where you click. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Expression positioning bug
Allen Fisher writes: > What am I missing? Perhaps you didn't apply the expression in the document using a metatool? Best regards, Jari Williamsson ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Expression positioning bug
At 11:09 AM 09/29/2004, Allen Fisher wrote: >This works for me in Finale 2004c...Mac or PC? Here's what I did: > >Opened a new default doc >Edited the marking to be "top note positioning" >Added an A above middle C and an E a fifth above to make a chord. >Applied the marking. > >If I move the entire chord up in simple entry, the the expression moves >If I move the A up or down, the expression stays put. >If I move the E up or down, the expression moves. What am I missing? Do the following: Open a new default doc Edit the marking to be "top note positioning", additional entry offset 0 Add a single note to the score Apply the marking Where did the marking go, vertically? According to common sense and the visual aid in the expression definition box, the baseline of the expression ought to be vertically aligned with the notehead. But it isn't -- it's wherever you clicked in the score. This happens whether you use the expression selection box or a metatool. You're correct that the expression does correctly "attach" itself to the top note, but the initial positioning is wrong. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Expression positioning bug
This works for me in Finale 2004c...Mac or PC? Here's what I did: Opened a new default doc Edited the marking to be "top note positioning" Added an A above middle C and an E a fifth above to make a chord. Applied the marking. If I move the entire chord up in simple entry, the the expression moves If I move the A up or down, the expression stays put. If I move the E up or down, the expression moves. What am I missing? Allen On 9/28/04 4:17 PM, "Aaron Sherber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > WinFin2004b > > When I create a note expression with vertical positioning set to top note > or bottom note and then place that expression in the score with a metatool, > the expression actually places itself vertically at the click position. I > have to right-click and choose Remove Manual Adjustments to get the > expression to actually position itself relative to top/bottom note as > requested. > > (The difference from defining vertical position as Vertical Click Position > is that an expression attached to top/bottom note will move vertically if > the note is moved.) > > Can anyone confirm this? Is it fixed in 2005? > > Thanks, > Aaron. > > ___ > Finale mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Expression positioning bug
At 02:27 AM 09/29/2004, Jari Williamsson wrote: >Why not just press backspace? Because I didn't know that that did the same thing! >Anyway, problem still there in Fin2005 initial release. Thanks -- I'll send it in to winsupport. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Expression positioning bug
Aaron Sherber writes: > When I create a note expression with vertical positioning set to top note > or bottom note and then place that expression in the score with a metatool, > the expression actually places itself vertically at the click position. I > have to right-click and choose Remove Manual Adjustments to get the > expression to actually position itself relative to top/bottom note as > requested. Why not just press backspace? Anyway, problem still there in Fin2005 initial release. Best regards, Jari Williamsson ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Expression positioning bug
Aaron, I have never seen this behavior. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 28 Sep 2004, at 05:17 PM, Aaron Sherber wrote: WinFin2004b When I create a note expression with vertical positioning set to top note or bottom note and then place that expression in the score with a metatool, the expression actually places itself vertically at the click position. I have to right-click and choose Remove Manual Adjustments to get the expression to actually position itself relative to top/bottom note as requested. (The difference from defining vertical position as Vertical Click Position is that an expression attached to top/bottom note will move vertically if the note is moved.) Can anyone confirm this? Is it fixed in 2005? Thanks, Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Expression positioning bug
WinFin2004b When I create a note expression with vertical positioning set to top note or bottom note and then place that expression in the score with a metatool, the expression actually places itself vertically at the click position. I have to right-click and choose Remove Manual Adjustments to get the expression to actually position itself relative to top/bottom note as requested. (The difference from defining vertical position as Vertical Click Position is that an expression attached to top/bottom note will move vertically if the note is moved.) Can anyone confirm this? Is it fixed in 2005? Thanks, Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
