Re: [FRIAM] Nautilus: Investing Is More Luck Than Talent

2017-01-23 Thread Vladimyr Burachynsky
"Neoliberalism is simply the idea that any full exploration of the phenotype 
requires parallel processing." 
Well said, and that does not even include the "extended Phenotype"  nor the  
much  hairier and very fearsome," Genotypes".


Since I am not a Neoliberal, but was proudly declared an enemy of the state by 
the previous Conservative Government of Canada, (a bulk application of  petty 
vindictiveness )  I feel it my
duty to translate this into the Vulgar language of my Nation,  aka English, 
mixed with many other locally vulgar and barbaric tongues.

Neoliberalism is just to "act in affected flamboyant charity, while 
simultaneously declaring an inflated tax credit, to the least important but 
sympathetic, while", ..,excuse my confusion German and Old English overlap 
somewhat..." kissing the arse of those with the biggest codpiece."  //Codpiece 
being a metaphor for Wall Street or  the Internal Revenue Service, and in no 
way should be confused with sexism on my part//
I borrowed that phrase from Shakespeare or was it Goethe.

If this is an accurate translation, then could we use it as a taxonomic 
definition.

There was a term used by the Vulgar in the 1960's , "Poser", that sums up both 
definitions in fewer characters. I recall meeting with some at the time  at 
poetry /communist hashish smoking rooms at Rochdale College U of T. 
I did not have time for "full exploration" since the paddy wagon had just 
arrived.

It also appears that the solution time is so great that no amount of 
mental/computational effort will ever yield results so therefore no effort is 
recommended by the authorities.
Any such attempt will be judged as hostile. Any and all contradiction will 
bring down harsh reprisals.
That seems to suggest that no self-declared Neoliberal is required to make any 
effort of any kind except theatrical to earn her/his entitlements. I hope I 
have interpreted this correctly.

Careful scrutiny of such a position then leaves the key distinguishing feature 
between Conservatives and Neoliberals; clearly unresolved.
Since it appears that neither faction is prepared to expend even marginal 
effort.

Really would parallel processing make even the least detectable difference or 
was the term thrown in to just scare the crap out of everyone...
vib

-Original Message-
From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen ?
Sent: January-23-17 3:10 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Nautilus: Investing Is More Luck Than Talent

On 01/23/2017 12:44 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> That's the collateral damage of the republicans.   Neoliberals protect the 
> very strong and the very weak, avoid existential threats to the collective, 
> while ignoring those that ought to be able to carry on, even though they feel 
> they should be entitled to special treatment.  

I suppose I can see that.  The Clintons' and Obama's version of it definitely 
lean that way.  I suppose even Bush2, with the "compassionate conservatism" 
falls in there.  But I think it's reasonable to assert that pure neoliberalism 
focuses more on allowing whatever the markets (social and economic) determine.  
Sure, we can kinda clean up after them, preventing the worst consequences (like 
genocide or pandemics).  But too much "caring for the poor" results in too many 
codified plans with too many unforeseeable kinks/singularities that may well be 
more catastrophic than the problems we're trying to solve.

Neoliberalism is simply the idea that any full exploration of the phenotype 
requires parallel processing.  And the term definitely does not deserve the 
vitriol poured on it by some.  I kinda like the idea that neoliberals like me 
will become something like socialist democrats (or democratic socialists).  As 
long as it's likely that large populations of cities can sustain a wide 
diversity of individualist focus, much of which is useless failure but with 
less death and suffering, then the neoliberal has a path to the fundamental 
parallelism of the ideology.  What has died is rural neoliberalism.  You can't 
globalize and reap the benefits by installing Walmarts and Wells Fargo branches.

--
☣ glen


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Re: [FRIAM] Nautilus: Investing Is More Luck Than Talent

2017-01-23 Thread Marcus Daniels
Glen writes:

"Neoliberalism is simply the idea that any full exploration of the phenotype 
requires parallel processing."

Hmm.  I had thought of neoliberalism as being more controlled and centralized 
rather than less controlled compared to liberalism in general, but I think you 
are right.  It is more about agility and parallelism than it is about 
thoughtful planning.  I was distracted by the capital intensiveness aspect.   
The centralization aspect is just emergent.   Spend money to make money.  

Marcus

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Re: [FRIAM] Nautilus: Investing Is More Luck Than Talent

2017-01-23 Thread glen ☣
On 01/23/2017 12:44 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> That's the collateral damage of the republicans.   Neoliberals protect the 
> very strong and the very weak, avoid existential threats to the collective, 
> while ignoring those that ought to be able to carry on, even though they feel 
> they should be entitled to special treatment.  

I suppose I can see that.  The Clintons' and Obama's version of it definitely 
lean that way.  I suppose even Bush2, with the "compassionate conservatism" 
falls in there.  But I think it's reasonable to assert that pure neoliberalism 
focuses more on allowing whatever the markets (social and economic) determine.  
Sure, we can kinda clean up after them, preventing the worst consequences (like 
genocide or pandemics).  But too much "caring for the poor" results in too many 
codified plans with too many unforeseeable kinks/singularities that may well be 
more catastrophic than the problems we're trying to solve.

Neoliberalism is simply the idea that any full exploration of the phenotype 
requires parallel processing.  And the term definitely does not deserve the 
vitriol poured on it by some.  I kinda like the idea that neoliberals like me 
will become something like socialist democrats (or democratic socialists).  As 
long as it's likely that large populations of cities can sustain a wide 
diversity of individualist focus, much of which is useless failure but with 
less death and suffering, then the neoliberal has a path to the fundamental 
parallelism of the ideology.  What has died is rural neoliberalism.  You can't 
globalize and reap the benefits by installing Walmarts and Wells Fargo branches.

-- 
☣ glen


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Re: [FRIAM] Nautilus: Investing Is More Luck Than Talent

2017-01-23 Thread Marcus Daniels
"The neo part is because pure liberalism takes the needs and wants of everyone 
into account.  We neoliberals regret the collateral damage that is poverty, 
death, starvation, epidemic, etc. but we really only measure success by the top 
X% of the pyramid.  

That's the collateral damage of the republicans.   Neoliberals protect the very 
strong and the very weak, avoid existential threats to the collective, while 
ignoring those that ought to be able to carry on, even though they feel they 
should be entitled to special treatment.  

Marcus  

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Re: [FRIAM] Nautilus: Investing Is More Luck Than Talent

2017-01-23 Thread glen ☣
On 01/23/2017 12:04 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> A centralized experimental protocol rather than a control system for all 
> time.   It can work if results can be ingested and models improved in a 
> dispassionate fashion.   Like new drug treatments, everyone wants equal 
> access to anything that might possibly work, rather than being in the placebo 
> group.

I don't know if that's true.  Most of the people I talk to not only want access 
to the things that _might_ work, they want everything they try to work.  Like 
our previous discussion of whether or not people have an intuitive grasp of 
probability theory, people don't really seem to grok it when their methods fail 
to work.  When their methods fail to achieve their purpose, they tend to 
complain about how unfair it all is.  It's especially disconcerting when 
scientists do it ... some of whom spend their entire lives advocating for ideas 
that they, themselves, helped demonstrate were false.

Regardless, of the mechanism were dispassionate, it might work.  But who 
(seriously) wants to live in a world with less passion?  Like our methods, we 
want our passion(d) but often don't want others' passion(s).

>  I'm not sure how the `neo' part fits in to it, other than perhaps the 
> practical limits on the experiment designers.

The neo part is because pure liberalism takes the needs and wants of everyone 
into account.  We neoliberals regret the collateral damage that is poverty, 
death, starvation, epidemic, etc. but we really only measure success by the top 
X% of the pyramid.  If Peter Thiel lives to be 200 years old, it will be a 
success we can _all_ claim some part of ... even as I scrounge through 
dumpsters when Renee' finally gets tired of my contrarian ways.

-- 
☣ glen


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Re: [FRIAM] Nautilus: Investing Is More Luck Than Talent

2017-01-23 Thread Marcus Daniels
"This is why neoliberalism (kindasorta) works.  It is an agenda where we limit 
our conscious planning and let the full ugliness of our complex reality rain 
down on us."

A centralized experimental protocol rather than a control system for all time.  
 It can work if results can be ingested and models improved in a dispassionate 
fashion.   Like new drug treatments, everyone wants equal access to anything 
that might possibly work, rather than being in the placebo group.   I'm not 
sure how the `neo' part fits in to it, other than perhaps the practical limits 
on the experiment designers.

Marcus


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Re: [FRIAM] Nautilus: Investing Is More Luck Than Talent

2017-01-23 Thread glen ☣
On 01/23/2017 11:25 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> “The Buddha, the Godhead, resides quite as comfortably in the circuits of a 
> digital computer or the gears of a cycle transmission as he does at the top 
> of the mountain, or in the petals of a flower. To think otherwise is to 
> demean the Buddha - which is to demean oneself.” -- Robert M. Pirsig

Heh, if I had any respect for Buddhism, I might have to try to understand that. 
>8^D But the sentiment is a vapid peppering of vague concepts across some 
actual things ... Sarah Palin is fantastic at such pepperings.  I wonder if 
she's a crypto-Buddhist?  I did enjoy the book.  I hated Lila, though.

-- 
☣ glen


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Re: [FRIAM] Nautilus: Investing Is More Luck Than Talent

2017-01-23 Thread Marcus Daniels
Glen writes:

"It seems especially stupid for atheists who can't count on seeing any sort of 
return on their investment.  Having children is one way out of that.  It shines 
a light on occult benefits one can realize while sacrificing their self to the 
benefit of someone else.  And it raises the concept of externalities and 
unintended consequences into full view."

“The Buddha, the Godhead, resides quite as comfortably in the circuits of a 
digital computer or the gears of a cycle transmission as he does at the top of 
the mountain, or in the petals of a flower. To think otherwise is to demean the 
Buddha - which is to demean oneself.” -- Robert M. Pirsig

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Re: [FRIAM] Nautilus: Investing Is More Luck Than Talent

2017-01-23 Thread glen ☣
On 01/21/2017 06:05 PM, Robert Wall wrote:
> It is conscious and logical.  It's the beginning of wisdom.  Or, is it just a 
> fool's errand? Not easy.  Not something I have achieved. But I do think it is 
> possible.  I have a few more years yet ... and then I die. 😕  It does beg the 
> question, "What's the point if this can't be perkolated up to the level of 
> society?"  I suppose we need to ask a devoted Buddhist this same question.

The purpose of my pointing out that morality reinforces whatever social 
structure already exists was to imply that _conscious_ programs are the enemy.  
It is consciously controlled plans that turn out to be based on a false 
understanding of reality.  Of course, this makes sense because the map is not 
the territory.  Our minds essentialize, remove "extraneous" detail.  Hence, 
nothing conscious can be, fundamentally, based on complex reality.  It must 
simplify it and, thereby be false.

This is why neoliberalism (kindasorta) works.  It is an agenda where we limit 
our conscious planning and let the full ugliness of our complex reality rain 
down on us.

> The problem is that they drag their crappy minds along with them. Living 
> longer does not change the animal.

Here, you and I seem to agree: it's the conscioussness that is the problem.  
But it seems like you're contradicting yourself.  On the one hand, you think 
(conscious) morality and planning are what we need to codify into reality and 
on the other hand, you're saying it's our crappy minds that caused the problem 
in the first place.

-- 
☣ glen


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Re: [FRIAM] Nautilus: Investing Is More Luck Than Talent

2017-01-23 Thread glen ☣
On 01/21/2017 07:35 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> I give that names like worrying, self-reflection, doubt, analysis, and 
> reading.   I believe it is practiced in a widespread way by the type 1 
> thinkers that Pamela mentioned. 

For whatever it's worth:

Study reveals for first time that cognitive-behavior therapy changes the 
brain’s wiring
http://www.psypost.org/2017/01/study-reveals-first-time-cognitive-behavior-therapy-changes-brains-wiring-46943

-- 
☣ glen


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Re: [FRIAM] Nautilus: Investing Is More Luck Than Talent

2017-01-23 Thread glen ☣
On 01/20/2017 04:33 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
> I dislike the closed-mindedness and willful ignorance of groups I grew up in, 
> probably in a very similar way to the way you do.  But I don’t think that 
> kind of thing flowers as it has, when societies are evolving to make a good 
> life better; more like it grows where people are making an unsatisfying life 
> somehow more tolerable to plough on through.

Collectives can choose to operate in either mode: 1) reach further, sacrificing 
their components in the process or 2) stay whole, sacrificing opportunities for 
more gains.  I tend to be a technologist, which biases me toward (1).  That 
also makes me a neoliberal to some extent.  And my willingness to sacrifice 
lives (including my own) so that someone, somewhere will make great strides 
while the rest of us live in squalor and disease makes neoliberals like seem 
cruel and ignorant.  (This is a false dichotomy, of course, but a useful one.)

It seems especially stupid for atheists who can't count on seeing any sort of 
return on their investment.  Having children is one way out of that.  It shines 
a light on occult benefits one can realize while sacrificing their self to the 
benefit of someone else.  And it raises the concept of externalities and 
unintended consequences into full view.

But going back to the conjecture, I don't think morality's purpose (human or 
not) is a regulator or some sort of disruptive heat source _against_ a stable, 
scale-free distribution of power or money or land or whatever.  Morality seems 
to me to positively reinforce the scale-free-ness of the system.  That would 
still fit, however, with the idea that it's a regulator.  But I don't think it 
is.  It seems to me that morality perpetuates the scale-free, "unfair" 
distribution.  To see this, perhaps we can consider a stable caste society, 
where it is moral to stick to the role into which you were born and immoral to 
cross castes.  Morality is what allows the salt of the earth to look at Trump 
and think he deserves his plane and kitsch.

This idea that morality is always good or represents a striving for good, e.g. 
your (8), is utter nonsense.  It is moral to work toward the death of Dylan 
Roof or Charles Manson, and not because you think "humans will flourish when 
they're dead", but because morality is as much a preserver of the status quo as 
it is a cause of delusionary all-good futures.

Personally, I think Robert's essay does point to something (just not the 
conclusion he draws).  It is that we are are biological system and somewhere 
inside our mechanisms (at all scales) lies an ur-generator, the cause of the 
stochasticity, the cause of the churn.  Maybe it's quantum reduction of the 
wave equation.  Maybe it's Brownian motion.  Maybe the universe is mathematics 
and it's form of chaos.  Whatever.  I don't know.  But it's that ur-generator 
(what I've called "twitch") that causes the churn in the distribution of 
various biological attributes.

And to whatever extent we have the ability to guide or bias the ur-generated 
ephemerides in and around us becomes technology and politics.


-- 
␦glen?

-- 
☣ glen


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Re: [FRIAM] Otra acción hostil

2017-01-23 Thread Marcus Daniels
“The petition has >267000 signatures in three days, we should be able to get a 
few million.”

There’s another one regarding divestment / blind trust that would be 
super-infuriating to him too.
Watch your junk-mail folder for the confirmation(s).

Marcus



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Re: [FRIAM] Otra acción hostil

2017-01-23 Thread Roger Critchlow
If you go and sign the petition to release Trump's tax returns:


https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/immediately-release-donald-trumps-full-tax-returns-all-information-needed-verify-emoluments-clause-compliance

they will send you an email to verify your signature along with a link that
you can share to encourage others to sign the petition.  The link leads to
the above mentioned "we welcome our new trump overlord" splash page and not
back to the petition.

The petition has >267000 signatures in three days, we should be able to get
a few million.

-- rec --

On Mon, Jan 23, 2017 at 1:33 PM, Marcus Daniels 
wrote:

> This page is still up, for now.  J
>
>
>
> https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/immediately-
> release-donald-trumps-full-tax-returns-all-information-
> needed-verify-emoluments-clause-compliance
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Gary
> Schiltz
> *Sent:* Monday, January 23, 2017 11:27 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Otra acción hostil
>
>
>
> I try to not get upset by this kind of stuff, but "whitehouse.gov" now
> starts with a "splash page" inviting us to "Sign up for updates from
> President Donald J. Trump!". Along with a picture of him giving a thumbs up
> sign. Even after you click the "Continue to Website" link, it continues the
> campaign theme with a picture of Trump waving at a campaign rally, along
> with Yuuuge font, "Let's Make America Great Again." Pardon me while I go
> throw up.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 23, 2017 at 12:14 PM, Alfredo Covaleda Vélez <
> alfr...@covaleda.co> wrote:
>
> Thank you. Yes, information related to climate change, Cuba and nuclear
> deal with Iran have been removed from the White House web site. Other
> source says that LGBT rights issues were removed too. This are the dark
> times you have been talking about.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 23, 2017 at 11:48 AM, Owen Densmore 
> wrote:
>
> Thanks, Alfredo. I tweeted it out and I recommend all of us do so.
>
>
>
> If I understand correctly, he also removed climate change and other's of
> his hates.
>
>
>
>-- Owen
>
>
>
> 2017-01-22 19:28 GMT-07:00 Alfredo Covaleda Vélez :
>
> La Casa Blanca de Donald Trump elimina el español de su página 'web'
>
>
> http://internacional.elpais.com/internacional/2017/01/22/
> estados_unidos/1485105920_597756.html
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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>
>
>
>
> 
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>
>
>
>
> 
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>
>
>
> 
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>

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Re: [FRIAM] Otra acción hostil

2017-01-23 Thread Marcus Daniels
This page is still up, for now.  ☺

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/immediately-release-donald-trumps-full-tax-returns-all-information-needed-verify-emoluments-clause-compliance

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Gary Schiltz
Sent: Monday, January 23, 2017 11:27 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Otra acción hostil

I try to not get upset by this kind of stuff, but 
"whitehouse.gov" now starts with a "splash page" 
inviting us to "Sign up for updates from President Donald J. Trump!". Along 
with a picture of him giving a thumbs up sign. Even after you click the 
"Continue to Website" link, it continues the campaign theme with a picture of 
Trump waving at a campaign rally, along with Yuuuge font, "Let's Make America 
Great Again." Pardon me while I go throw up.

On Mon, Jan 23, 2017 at 12:14 PM, Alfredo Covaleda Vélez 
mailto:alfr...@covaleda.co>> wrote:
Thank you. Yes, information related to climate change, Cuba and nuclear deal 
with Iran have been removed from the White House web site. Other source says 
that LGBT rights issues were removed too. This are the dark times you have been 
talking about.

On Mon, Jan 23, 2017 at 11:48 AM, Owen Densmore 
mailto:o...@backspaces.net>> wrote:
Thanks, Alfredo. I tweeted it out and I recommend all of us do so.

If I understand correctly, he also removed climate change and other's of his 
hates.

   -- Owen

2017-01-22 19:28 GMT-07:00 Alfredo Covaleda Vélez 
mailto:alfr...@covaleda.co>>:
La Casa Blanca de Donald Trump elimina el español de su página 'web'

http://internacional.elpais.com/internacional/2017/01/22/estados_unidos/1485105920_597756.html


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Re: [FRIAM] Otra acción hostil

2017-01-23 Thread Gary Schiltz
I try to not get upset by this kind of stuff, but "whitehouse.gov" now
starts with a "splash page" inviting us to "Sign up for updates from
President Donald J. Trump!". Along with a picture of him giving a thumbs up
sign. Even after you click the "Continue to Website" link, it continues the
campaign theme with a picture of Trump waving at a campaign rally, along
with Yuuuge font, "Let's Make America Great Again." Pardon me while I go
throw up.

On Mon, Jan 23, 2017 at 12:14 PM, Alfredo Covaleda Vélez <
alfr...@covaleda.co> wrote:

> Thank you. Yes, information related to climate change, Cuba and nuclear
> deal with Iran have been removed from the White House web site. Other
> source says that LGBT rights issues were removed too. This are the dark
> times you have been talking about.
>
> On Mon, Jan 23, 2017 at 11:48 AM, Owen Densmore 
> wrote:
>
>> Thanks, Alfredo. I tweeted it out and I recommend all of us do so.
>>
>> If I understand correctly, he also removed climate change and other's of
>> his hates.
>>
>>-- Owen
>>
>> 2017-01-22 19:28 GMT-07:00 Alfredo Covaleda Vélez :
>>
>>> La Casa Blanca de Donald Trump elimina el español de su página 'web'
>>> http://internacional.elpais.com/internacional/2017/01/22/est
>>> ados_unidos/1485105920_597756.html
>>>
>>> 
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>

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FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] Otra acción hostil

2017-01-23 Thread Alfredo Covaleda Vélez
Thank you. Yes, information related to climate change, Cuba and nuclear
deal with Iran have been removed from the White House web site. Other
source says that LGBT rights issues were removed too. This are the dark
times you have been talking about.

On Mon, Jan 23, 2017 at 11:48 AM, Owen Densmore  wrote:

> Thanks, Alfredo. I tweeted it out and I recommend all of us do so.
>
> If I understand correctly, he also removed climate change and other's of
> his hates.
>
>-- Owen
>
> 2017-01-22 19:28 GMT-07:00 Alfredo Covaleda Vélez :
>
>> La Casa Blanca de Donald Trump elimina el español de su página 'web'
>> http://internacional.elpais.com/internacional/2017/01/22/est
>> ados_unidos/1485105920_597756.html
>>
>> 
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] Otra acción hostil

2017-01-23 Thread Owen Densmore
Thanks, Alfredo. I tweeted it out and I recommend all of us do so.

If I understand correctly, he also removed climate change and other's of
his hates.

   -- Owen

2017-01-22 19:28 GMT-07:00 Alfredo Covaleda Vélez :

> La Casa Blanca de Donald Trump elimina el español de su página 'web'
> http://internacional.elpais.com/internacional/2017/01/22/
> estados_unidos/1485105920_597756.html
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove