Re: [FRIAM] Los "países de mierda" le dejan millones de dólares a EE.UU.

[Marcus Daniels]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-22/south-korea-tops-global-innovation-ranking-again-as-u-s-falls

From: Friam  on behalf of Alfredo Covaleda Vélez 

Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Date: Saturday, January 20, 2018 at 11:56 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Los "países de mierda" le dejan millones de dólares a 
EE.UU.


https://www.facebook.com/gondwana.collection.namibia/videos/2272449069447736/

2018-01-14 17:06 GMT-05:00 Alfredo Covaleda Vélez 
mailto:alfr...@covaleda.co>>:

https://www.elespectador.com/noticias/el-mundo/los-paises-de-mierda-le-dejan-millones-de-dolares-eeuu-articulo-733048


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Re: [FRIAM] Los "países de mierda" le dejan millones de dólares a EE.UU.

[uǝlƃ ☣]

Ha!  We don't need to go to such rhetorical extremes!  I *am* a member of the 
Dandelion Lovers tribe.  But not because I like the overly bitter leaves in my 
salad.  I'm a reluctant member of the DL because it's a fantastic bittering 
herb for beer ... and it's infinitely cheaper than hops ... because it's free 
and grows in the yard ... if you don't mow, anyway.  Finish off the boil with 
some hops and toss some in later and your beer snob tribe will never know the 
difference.


On 01/22/2018 11:51 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> So some of the neighbors that have these weird expectations may band together 
> to attempt to pressure you into mowing and other things.   Perhaps you are an 
> adherent of a Plants Rights organization, and don't want to torture natural 
> processes with high RPM rotors.  Heck, you had no idea that people would do 
> such things!   Now you have become of a `member' of this 
> grass-torturing-tribe.   Why should you want to do anything `useful' for this 
> tribe?  

-- 
☣ uǝlƃ


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Re: [FRIAM] Los "países de mierda" le dejan millones de dólares a EE.UU.

[uǝlƃ ☣]

Obviously, the word is susceptible to over-simplification.  I tend to take it 
as a complex construct with layers of scoping.  And it's not even orthogonally 
based.  E.g. I'd suggest that your innermost tribal scope is your variety of 
intra-personal needs and motives.  Your math homunculus might disagree a *lot* 
with your poetry homunculus.  Together, they are useful to each other.  
However, your poetry homunculus may break the intra-personal scope and be more 
tightly coupled with, say, the other members of your poetry circle than it is 
with your math homunculus.

The same is true of inter-personal scopes.  E.g. I'm fairly loyal to Renee'.  
But my nerd herd will usually win in any conflict with her family.  I'm *very* 
unlikely to move back to Texas because all the members of my nerd herd are 
elsewhere, here, Seattle, New Mexico, California, Virginia, Sweden, Ireland, 
Canada!, etc.  

Beware anyone who tries to over-simplify "tribe".  But this is mostly a 
rarefied point.  The larger obstacle, before anyone's ready to have the 
complexity of tribe conversation, is to think of oneself as a *tool*, a means 
to an end, not an end in yourself.  I've always been confused by the "tool" 
insult, not least of why because they're one of my favorite bands. 8^) I've 
always been a tool; and I'm proud of it.  I fear the day I'll no longer be a 
tool ... even a dull one.  There's nothing sadder than that old, broken, 
wooden-handled hammer, that sits there unused in the garage.


On 01/22/2018 11:26 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Is a company a tribe?   Is a (e.g. married) couple a tribe?   Is a political 
> party a tribe?  Are anonymous contributing members of a non-profit 
> organization a tribe?   Is any group of people that orient around some small 
> but similar set of features is a tribe?   Is a group less tribal as the 
> features advanced by any member is overlaps relatively little with other 
> members?   What if the relative overlap of features is small, but the 
> absolute amount is larger than another group with higher relative overlap?   
> Is tribalism just the preoccupation with the group over the purpose for the 
> group?   When people say everyone is tribal (which I guess includes me), I 
> feel insulted!   I want a way out of this madness.

-- 
☣ uǝlƃ


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Re: [FRIAM] Los "países de mierda" le dejan millones de dólares a EE.UU.

[Marcus Daniels]

< Keeping a house (or mowing the lawn at the local church ... or any number of 
very useful, often unrecognized contributions) are at least as useful as what 
we normally call "skills".  >


Take, for example, not mowing your own lawn.Some of your neighbors may want 
to see the neighborhood being manicured to certain standards, but for the sake 
of argument this hypothetical community has no formal rules -- the lots are 
just independent.


So some of the neighbors that have these weird expectations may band together 
to attempt to pressure you into mowing and other things.   Perhaps you are an 
adherent of a Plants Rights organization, and don't want to torture natural 
processes with high RPM rotors.  Heck, you had no idea that people would do 
such things!   Now you have become of a `member' of this grass-torturing-tribe. 
  Why should you want to do anything `useful' for this tribe?


Marcus


From: Friam  on behalf of uǝlƃ ☣ 

Sent: Monday, January 22, 2018 12:26:15 PM
To: FriAM
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Los "países de mierda" le dejan millones de dólares a 
EE.UU.

I think most of us are entrained by the concept that one derives their identity 
from their *job*.

But if we give it a fair bit of thought, it's insidious.  To ham-handedly lob 
at Stanley again, it's part of the myth of the objective.  Corporations 
definitely have charters, mission statements, for- or non-profit objectives, 
etc.  So, it seems trivial to lump them into part of the problem, not the 
solution.  But nation states?  It's unclear to me what their purpose is 
(perhaps should be capitalized and pluralized: Purposes are).  Beyond that, to 
what extent *can* we synthesize a collective purpose from the purposes of its 
parts?  And to what extent can/should we design collectives as forcing 
structures so that all their parts "line up"?

Opinions of the Dreamers and immigration, as a whole, seem categorizable 
according to opinions of how/when/whether collectives cohere.

The point is also on-topic for the Women's March, perhaps peripherally to 
#MeToo, though, and more towards pay inequality.  Being useful to one's tribe 
has absolutely nothing to do with what you think they want/need, job 
recruiters, or anything of the sort.  Keeping a house (or mowing the lawn at 
the local church ... or any number of very useful, often unrecognized 
contributions) are at least as useful as what we normally call "skills".  In 
fact, the very word "skill" is the fallacy of begging the question.

And going back to my comment to Frank, in the same way those around us often 
*know* us better than we know ourselves, it's largely irrelevant what you enjoy 
or *think* you're good at.  It's probably more useful to allow others to tell 
you what you should be doing.  (Pick up those damned socks!)  But more 
importantly, any *singular* assessment of need/skill/etc. will be false.

What we need are estimators of collective parameters (to which our 
libertarian/individualist/capitalist/masculine values make us allergic).


On 01/22/2018 10:32 AM, Steven A Smith wrote:
> It was confrontational to  ask myself "who would WANT me, if I rejected my 
> country of origin?"
> ...
> Even if we are not "deported" from our own homelands, we may be "deprecated" 
> if we do not work hard to shape our society around this new reality.

On 01/22/2018 10:32 AM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
> I'm willing to be useful but my age is a problem.  Not for my capacity to be 
> useful but because potential employers don't believe I can be.  I still get 
> calls from recruiters but lately I say, "It sounds like a good match but the 
> hiring manager won't be interested because of my age."

--
☣ uǝlƃ


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Re: [FRIAM] Los "países de mierda" le dejan millones de dólares a EE.UU.

[Marcus Daniels]

Glen writes:


< So, my answer is: Whatever my tribe finds useful.  If that forces me to rent 
a hovel in a crime-ridden neighborhood of Pittsburgh -- or worse yet, Kermit, 
TX -- then that's probably what I'll do.  Luckily, it all hinges on the 
definition of "tribe". >


Is a company a tribe?   Is a (e.g. married) couple a tribe?   Is a political 
party a tribe?  Are anonymous contributing members of a non-profit organization 
a tribe?   Is any group of people that orient around some small but similar set 
of features is a tribe?   Is a group less tribal as the features advanced by 
any member is overlaps relatively little with other members?   What if the 
relative overlap of features is small, but the absolute amount is larger than 
another group with higher relative overlap?   Is tribalism just the 
preoccupation with the group over the purpose for the group?   When people say 
everyone is tribal (which I guess includes me), I feel insulted!   I want a way 
out of this madness.


Marcus


From: Friam  on behalf of uǝlƃ ☣ 

Sent: Monday, January 22, 2018 11:18:48 AM
To: FriAM
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Los "países de mierda" le dejan millones de dólares a 
EE.UU.

Yeah, but this raises the fundamental question.  We're used to having "respect 
for persons" ... as if it's somehow imperative to think of humans as ends in 
and of themselves.  As we go from hunter gatherer, through agricultural, 
through industrial, and informational population sizes to something more akin 
to a biofilm covering the surface of the planet, the question isn't about what 
you, as a single cell "like".  The question is one of finding a place where we 
can exploit you to the fullest extent.

Are you really that useful to _us_ (not you) living in New Mexico?  Or could we 
squeeze a little more RoI from you if you lived in CA or Pittsburgh?

I'm not being completely facetious, here.  For concreteness, we were at a 
dinner party a month or so ago and one of us asked "What do you want to do when 
you retire?"  (Of course, I'll never retire ... So there's only one right 
answer: "Mu". ... But I played along, anyway.)  Everyone at the table, 
constituted by relatively well-off white people with white collar jobs, said 
"Travel".  Already being horrified by the very question, this horrified me even 
more, given the carbon footprint of jetting around the globe for no other 
reason than your narcissistic desire to "see the sights".  So I tried to 
deliver my blow softly.  I would simply like to be useful until I die.  So, my 
answer is: Whatever my tribe finds useful.  If that forces me to rent a hovel 
in a crime-ridden neighborhood of Pittsburgh -- or worse yet, Kermit, TX -- 
then that's probably what I'll do.  Luckily, it all hinges on the definition of 
"tribe". 8^)

On 01/22/2018 09:53 AM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
> I grew up on California but I can't move there in retirement because I'm not 
> willing to pay $1 million for a 2 BR 1 bath house.  Now, if Amazon locates 
> it's HQ2 in Pittsburgh I won't be able to move back there either.  
> Fortunately I like New Mexico.

--
☣ uǝlƃ


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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] Los "países de mierda" le dejan millones de dólares a EE.UU.

[uǝlƃ ☣]

I think most of us are entrained by the concept that one derives their identity 
from their *job*.

But if we give it a fair bit of thought, it's insidious.  To ham-handedly lob 
at Stanley again, it's part of the myth of the objective.  Corporations 
definitely have charters, mission statements, for- or non-profit objectives, 
etc.  So, it seems trivial to lump them into part of the problem, not the 
solution.  But nation states?  It's unclear to me what their purpose is 
(perhaps should be capitalized and pluralized: Purposes are).  Beyond that, to 
what extent *can* we synthesize a collective purpose from the purposes of its 
parts?  And to what extent can/should we design collectives as forcing 
structures so that all their parts "line up"?

Opinions of the Dreamers and immigration, as a whole, seem categorizable 
according to opinions of how/when/whether collectives cohere.

The point is also on-topic for the Women's March, perhaps peripherally to 
#MeToo, though, and more towards pay inequality.  Being useful to one's tribe 
has absolutely nothing to do with what you think they want/need, job 
recruiters, or anything of the sort.  Keeping a house (or mowing the lawn at 
the local church ... or any number of very useful, often unrecognized 
contributions) are at least as useful as what we normally call "skills".  In 
fact, the very word "skill" is the fallacy of begging the question.

And going back to my comment to Frank, in the same way those around us often 
*know* us better than we know ourselves, it's largely irrelevant what you enjoy 
or *think* you're good at.  It's probably more useful to allow others to tell 
you what you should be doing.  (Pick up those damned socks!)  But more 
importantly, any *singular* assessment of need/skill/etc. will be false.

What we need are estimators of collective parameters (to which our 
libertarian/individualist/capitalist/masculine values make us allergic).


On 01/22/2018 10:32 AM, Steven A Smith wrote:
> It was confrontational to  ask myself "who would WANT me, if I rejected my 
> country of origin?"  
> ...
> Even if we are not "deported" from our own homelands, we may be "deprecated" 
> if we do not work hard to shape our society around this new reality.

On 01/22/2018 10:32 AM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
> I'm willing to be useful but my age is a problem.  Not for my capacity to be 
> useful but because potential employers don't believe I can be.  I still get 
> calls from recruiters but lately I say, "It sounds like a good match but the 
> hiring manager won't be interested because of my age."

-- 
☣ uǝlƃ


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] Los "países de mierda" le dejan millones de dólares a EE.UU.

[Frank Wimberly]

I'm willing to be useful but my age is a problem.  Not for my capacity to
be useful but because potential employers don't believe I can be.  I still
get calls from recruiters but lately I say, "It sounds like a good match
but the hiring manager won't be interested because of my age."
Recently a recruiter said that I was getting in my own way and that the
company (in Ann Arbor) that he represents isn't the least bit guilty of
ageism.  He said that they have lots of employees in their fifties.  When I
said I was in my seventies he seemed less motivated.

I'll just keep playing tennis and studying the mathematics of quantum field
theory, I guess.


Frank


Frank Wimberly

www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2

Phone (505) 670-9918

On Jan 22, 2018 11:19 AM, "uǝlƃ ☣"  wrote:

> Yeah, but this raises the fundamental question.  We're used to having
> "respect for persons" ... as if it's somehow imperative to think of humans
> as ends in and of themselves.  As we go from hunter gatherer, through
> agricultural, through industrial, and informational population sizes to
> something more akin to a biofilm covering the surface of the planet, the
> question isn't about what you, as a single cell "like".  The question is
> one of finding a place where we can exploit you to the fullest extent.
>
> Are you really that useful to _us_ (not you) living in New Mexico?  Or
> could we squeeze a little more RoI from you if you lived in CA or
> Pittsburgh?
>
> I'm not being completely facetious, here.  For concreteness, we were at a
> dinner party a month or so ago and one of us asked "What do you want to do
> when you retire?"  (Of course, I'll never retire ... So there's only one
> right answer: "Mu". ... But I played along, anyway.)  Everyone at the
> table, constituted by relatively well-off white people with white collar
> jobs, said "Travel".  Already being horrified by the very question, this
> horrified me even more, given the carbon footprint of jetting around the
> globe for no other reason than your narcissistic desire to "see the
> sights".  So I tried to deliver my blow softly.  I would simply like to be
> useful until I die.  So, my answer is: Whatever my tribe finds useful.  If
> that forces me to rent a hovel in a crime-ridden neighborhood of Pittsburgh
> -- or worse yet, Kermit, TX -- then that's probably what I'll do.  Luckily,
> it all hinges on the definition of "tribe". 8^)
>
> On 01/22/2018 09:53 AM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
> > I grew up on California but I can't move there in retirement because I'm
> not willing to pay $1 million for a 2 BR 1 bath house.  Now, if Amazon
> locates it's HQ2 in Pittsburgh I won't be able to move back there either.
> Fortunately I like New Mexico.
>
> --
> ☣ uǝlƃ
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

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Re: [FRIAM] Los "países de mierda" le dejan millones de dólares a EE.UU.

[Steven A Smith]

Cody -

As Vietnam and the related Conscription of young men approached (like a
freight train) in my teens, I seriously considered self-exile from the
US to avoid risking becoming yet another trained/habituated killer (or
more likely but not mutually exclusively a PTSD-damaged Veteran for
life).   I have friends who managed to serve during that time and become
neither, but the risk WAS significant.

I was living on the border of MX and spoke passable street Spanish and
felt I knew my way around in MX well enough to go there (first).  I had
enough sense of idealism to believe that if I "fled" this "service" I
would be forfeiting my rights to citizenship and should not plan to
return as so many of my peers did.  I was honestly trying to face being
a (voluntary) exile for life.  It was a useful thing to consider, and by
a small measure could be considered "forced exile" given the choices
(conscription or incarceration).   They rescinded the requirement to
sign up for "selective service" 4 months before I turned 18, and active
conscription had not happened for at least a year by that time (1974),
so I "dodged that bullet".   Many others here (a few years my senior)
had even more acute experiences of this time, either serving in the
military or using a variety of deferments (educational most often) to
put off their conscription long enough for the war to end, I don't know
if anyone here left the country or gave up their citizenship or accepted
" conscientious objector
" status

It was confrontational to  ask myself "who would WANT me, if I rejected
my country of origin?"  I had no reason to believe any other country
would grant me citizenship, and at best would "tolerate me", most likely
by living under the radar as so many Central American immigrants do here
today.   I did not feel that I "deserved" the welcome haven Canada
offered, for example... I felt that while avoiding conscription was the
"right" (only) thing for me to do, that I deserved to serve some kind of
penance in the shadow of it.   I felt somewhat like a political refugee.

While *I* was born and raised entirely in the US Southwest (AZ/NM) I
lived primarily among people who could claim significantly deeper roots
than I.   Native Americans who could claim lineage back for millenia,
Navajo/Hispanics whose legacy nominally begins in the 1400s/1500s in
this area, and in some cases (like Frank Wimberly), Anglos whose
grandparents were here.  While my most recent European immigrant
ancestor was a single great-grandmother from Poland (mid 1800s), my
parents moved west from KY after WWII.

As an adult, I have looked mildly at trying to emigrate to other
countries such as NZ/AU or Canada.   Even when I was relatively young
(i.e. under 40) I did not feel that welcome there... on the surface of
it, I felt that they considered *any* immigrant to be a potential
burden.  At 60, I have no illusions that any country (especially with
good socialized medicine) would want me to come and burden them with my
old age.   There are always considerations offered for people bringing
acutely needed skills and/or big piles of cash with them.   Many third
world countries DO offer permanent resident visas for "pensioners",
people who bring their retirement savings/income to their countries and
spend it there... and similarly most countries accept people who can
demonstrate their resources and ability to start up a significant
business there.   Gary Schlitz can probably illuminate us on this a bit
better from his vantage point in Ecuador. 

We may have a few other such "expats" in the crowd, as well as a number
of folks from outside the US.  I believe *most* of our constituency here
from outside the US is from Europe but at least a handful from
elsewhere.   It feels like the EU "solved" many problems with
Nationalism by adopting a common currency and lowering their borders to
work and trade, but are now suffering some of the dark side of it in
exchange.

As we continue to "automate" our labor, including many skills formerly
held to require humans (will machine-learning/AI deprecate programmers
in your lifetime?), it is more and more likely that many of us will have
no obvious skills to offer and will rely on the collective to agree to
provide access to goods and services as a "basic right".  

Even if we are not "deported" from our own homelands, we may be
"deprecated" if we do not work hard to shape our society around this new
reality.   The Industrial Revolution caused quite a stir, and folks like
the Luddites saw the writing on the wall of losing their livelihoods (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddite ).   Dystopian futures such as
Soylent Green caution us against building a future where *most* humans
are irrelevant and best considered a burden on the few who are not.  

This alone is good enough reason (to me) to fight against the
xenophobic, nationalistic forces afoot today who want to declare *some
humans* to be to

Re: [FRIAM] Los "países de mierda" le dejan millones de dólares a EE.UU.

[uǝlƃ ☣]

Yeah, but this raises the fundamental question.  We're used to having "respect 
for persons" ... as if it's somehow imperative to think of humans as ends in 
and of themselves.  As we go from hunter gatherer, through agricultural, 
through industrial, and informational population sizes to something more akin 
to a biofilm covering the surface of the planet, the question isn't about what 
you, as a single cell "like".  The question is one of finding a place where we 
can exploit you to the fullest extent.

Are you really that useful to _us_ (not you) living in New Mexico?  Or could we 
squeeze a little more RoI from you if you lived in CA or Pittsburgh?

I'm not being completely facetious, here.  For concreteness, we were at a 
dinner party a month or so ago and one of us asked "What do you want to do when 
you retire?"  (Of course, I'll never retire ... So there's only one right 
answer: "Mu". ... But I played along, anyway.)  Everyone at the table, 
constituted by relatively well-off white people with white collar jobs, said 
"Travel".  Already being horrified by the very question, this horrified me even 
more, given the carbon footprint of jetting around the globe for no other 
reason than your narcissistic desire to "see the sights".  So I tried to 
deliver my blow softly.  I would simply like to be useful until I die.  So, my 
answer is: Whatever my tribe finds useful.  If that forces me to rent a hovel 
in a crime-ridden neighborhood of Pittsburgh -- or worse yet, Kermit, TX -- 
then that's probably what I'll do.  Luckily, it all hinges on the definition of 
"tribe". 8^)

On 01/22/2018 09:53 AM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
> I grew up on California but I can't move there in retirement because I'm not 
> willing to pay $1 million for a 2 BR 1 bath house.  Now, if Amazon locates 
> it's HQ2 in Pittsburgh I won't be able to move back there either.  
> Fortunately I like New Mexico.

-- 
☣ uǝlƃ


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Re: [FRIAM] Los "países de mierda" le dejan millones de dólares a EE.UU.

[Frank Wimberly]

I grew up on California but I can't move there in retirement because I'm
not willing to pay $1 million for a 2 BR 1 bath house.  Now, if Amazon
locates it's HQ2 in Pittsburgh I won't be able to move back there either.
Fortunately I like New Mexico.

Frank


Frank Wimberly

www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2

Phone (505) 670-9918

On Jan 22, 2018 10:47 AM, "Marcus Daniels"  wrote:

> < Many DACA kids have no real connection to the country they might get
> shipped to either. Maybe a whole bunch of us could get  "a free one-way
> plane ticket to return to the country you want" as Ann Coulter put it. >
>
> With Amazon and Azure servers all over the world, and high speed
> networking and teleconferencing becoming ubiquitous, I wonder if there will
> soon come a day when there are few advantages to being in North America,
> Europe, or Asia?   Living in major U.S. cities is a pain with the cost of
> real estate and the constant traffic problems.  I don't need to be
> motivated by a manager to do my work -- really their presence just reduces
> my productivity.On the other extreme are outposts like Los Alamos where
> there is really way too little alternative economic activity.
>
> Still, if I look at jobs at a big company like Microsoft, there are more
> interesting (and high paying) jobs in a city like Seattle compared to
> Mexico City.Maybe if enough of us take Coulter's advice the U.S. wil
> become the protectionist sh*thole -- the last resort for the underskilled.
>
> Marcus
>
> --
> *From:* Friam  on behalf of cody dooderson <
> d00d3r...@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, January 22, 2018 9:22:06 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Los "países de mierda" le dejan millones de
> dólares a EE.UU.
>
> Wikipdedia says that 86% of El Salvadorians have native American Heritage.
> How can anyone take arguments for their deportation seriously, when they
> are spewing from the mouths of first or second generation
> Eropean-Americans. It just seems hypocritical.
> I do have a serious quetion 'though. As a 2nd generation
> European-American, what would take for me to get deported? It would be an
> interesting form of protest to get shipped to some country I've never been
> to. Many DACA kids have no real connection to the country they might get
> shipped to either. Maybe a whole bunch of us could get  "a free one-way
> plane ticket to return to the country you want" as Ann Coulter put it.
>
> Cody Smith
>
> 2018-01-20 11:55 GMT-07:00 Alfredo Covaleda Vélez :
>
>
> https://www.facebook.com/gondwana.collection.namibia/videos/
> 2272449069447736/
>
> 2018-01-14 17:06 GMT-05:00 Alfredo Covaleda Vélez :
>
>
> https://www.elespectador.com/noticias/el-mundo/los-paises-de
> -mierda-le-dejan-millones-de-dolares-eeuu-articulo-733048
>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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>

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Re: [FRIAM] Los "países de mierda" le dejan millones de dólares a EE.UU.

[Marcus Daniels]

< Many DACA kids have no real connection to the country they might get shipped 
to either. Maybe a whole bunch of us could get  "a free one-way plane ticket to 
return to the country you want" as Ann Coulter put it. >

With Amazon and Azure servers all over the world, and high speed networking and 
teleconferencing becoming ubiquitous, I wonder if there will soon come a day 
when there are few advantages to being in North America, Europe, or Asia?   
Living in major U.S. cities is a pain with the cost of real estate and the 
constant traffic problems.  I don't need to be motivated by a manager to do my 
work -- really their presence just reduces my productivity.On the other 
extreme are outposts like Los Alamos where there is really way too little 
alternative economic activity.

Still, if I look at jobs at a big company like Microsoft, there are more 
interesting (and high paying) jobs in a city like Seattle compared to Mexico 
City.Maybe if enough of us take Coulter's advice the U.S. wil become the 
protectionist sh*thole -- the last resort for the underskilled.

Marcus



From: Friam  on behalf of cody dooderson 

Sent: Monday, January 22, 2018 9:22:06 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Los "países de mierda" le dejan millones de dólares a 
EE.UU.

Wikipdedia says that 86% of El Salvadorians have native American Heritage. How 
can anyone take arguments for their deportation seriously, when they are 
spewing from the mouths of first or second generation Eropean-Americans. It 
just seems hypocritical.
I do have a serious quetion 'though. As a 2nd generation European-American, 
what would take for me to get deported? It would be an interesting form of 
protest to get shipped to some country I've never been to. Many DACA kids have 
no real connection to the country they might get shipped to either. Maybe a 
whole bunch of us could get  "a free one-way plane ticket to return to the 
country you want" as Ann Coulter put it.

Cody Smith

2018-01-20 11:55 GMT-07:00 Alfredo Covaleda Vélez 
mailto:alfr...@covaleda.co>>:

https://www.facebook.com/gondwana.collection.namibia/videos/2272449069447736/

2018-01-14 17:06 GMT-05:00 Alfredo Covaleda Vélez 
mailto:alfr...@covaleda.co>>:

https://www.elespectador.com/noticias/el-mundo/los-paises-de-mierda-le-dejan-millones-de-dolares-eeuu-articulo-733048



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Re: [FRIAM] Los "países de mierda" le dejan millones de dólares a EE.UU.

[cody dooderson]

Wikipdedia says that 86% of El Salvadorians have native American Heritage.
How can anyone take arguments for their deportation seriously, when they
are spewing from the mouths of first or second generation
Eropean-Americans. It just seems hypocritical.
I do have a serious quetion 'though. As a 2nd generation European-American,
what would take for me to get deported? It would be an interesting form of
protest to get shipped to some country I've never been to. Many DACA kids
have no real connection to the country they might get shipped to either.
Maybe a whole bunch of us could get  "a free one-way plane ticket to return
to the country you want" as Ann Coulter put it.

Cody Smith

2018-01-20 11:55 GMT-07:00 Alfredo Covaleda Vélez :

>
> https://www.facebook.com/gondwana.collection.namibia/
> videos/2272449069447736/
>
> 2018-01-14 17:06 GMT-05:00 Alfredo Covaleda Vélez :
>
>>
>> https://www.elespectador.com/noticias/el-mundo/los-paises-de
>> -mierda-le-dejan-millones-de-dolares-eeuu-articulo-733048
>>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] Los "países de mierda" le dejan millones de dólares a EE.UU.

[Alfredo Covaleda Vélez]

https://www.facebook.com/gondwana.collection.namibia/videos/2272449069447736/

2018-01-14 17:06 GMT-05:00 Alfredo Covaleda Vélez :

>
> https://www.elespectador.com/noticias/el-mundo/los-paises-
> de-mierda-le-dejan-millones-de-dolares-eeuu-articulo-733048
>

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] Los "países de mierda" le dejan millones de dólares a EE.UU.

[Alfredo Covaleda Vélez]

Yes it is the second most broadly distributed newspaper of Colombia. El
Espectador is the newspaper that was blowed up by a drug cartel. I remember
It was a terrible explosion that waked me up. His owner and director was
killed by the same guys. The newspaper was closed but at the begining of
this century and because of his tradition It was bought and reopened by the
richest family of Colombia; althought the sucessors of the patriarc are
American born and they appear in Forbes list between the richest US
citizens.

On Sun, Jan 14, 2018 at 6:46 PM, Gary Schiltz 
wrote:

> I couldn't find it directly on their web site, but might I infer from
> some of the stories that this is a national newspaper of Colombia?
>
> 2018-01-14 17:06 GMT-05:00 Alfredo Covaleda Vélez :
> >
> > https://www.elespectador.com/noticias/el-mundo/los-paises-
> de-mierda-le-dejan-millones-de-dolares-eeuu-articulo-733048
> >
> > 
> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] Los "países de mierda" le dejan millones de dólares a EE.UU.

[Gary Schiltz]

I couldn't find it directly on their web site, but might I infer from
some of the stories that this is a national newspaper of Colombia?

2018-01-14 17:06 GMT-05:00 Alfredo Covaleda Vélez :
>
> https://www.elespectador.com/noticias/el-mundo/los-paises-de-mierda-le-dejan-millones-de-dolares-eeuu-articulo-733048
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove


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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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[FRIAM] Los "países de mierda" le dejan millones de dólares a EE.UU.

[Alfredo Covaleda Vélez]

https://www.elespectador.com/noticias/el-mundo/los-paises-de-mierda-le-dejan-millones-de-dolares-eeuu-articulo-733048

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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