Re: [FRIAM] Will Rogers and Animal Behavior
I for one don't think emergent systems study requires choosing between 'sand piles' and animals having 'fun'. Playful experimentation is one of the all time best natural systems for discovering natural structures it seems to me, just a higher level version of jumping potential wells like some grain of sand seems bound to have done at a critical point to get a slide going. The range of complex system phenomena is tremendous. One thing that helps me is that there seem to be various scales you can arrange the entire spectrum on, complexity of self-regulation for example. Thermostats and sand piles are on the simple side and animal acrobatics on the high side. You don't necessarily have to assign a number to things to have a useful scale, of course, just have a way to order things and make note of uncertainties. That's what the paleontologists do with all their species branching diagrams (clad notation). For those who like numbers, though, there's the rudimentary numerical development scale, the number of doublings a system performs in its development. Humans and the world economy thus far are about 30 doublings, for example. Yep, kind of an interestingly compressed scale! Phil Henshaw .·´ ¯ `·. ~~~ 680 Ft. Washington Ave NY NY 10040 tel: 212-795-4844 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] explorations: www.synapse9.com > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Hugh Trenchard > Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 8:05 PM > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Will Rogers and Animal Behavior > > > I for one am rarely afraid to ask questions, stupid or > otherwise, when my > curiosity is piqued. > > Do the ravens in Sante Fe align in vee formations when they roll off > chandelles? If they do, then regardless of whether they are > having fun, it > is an interesting pattern formation which causes one to ask > reasonably why > they choose such a formation. Do they do it for the sheer > pleasure of the > esthetics of the vee formation? This would, it seems, entail > some "fun" of > the formation, although I doubt I would find many people who > would argue > that is the fun they derive. So then why is it fun that they > should align in > those formations? > > I myself wouldn't claim to subscribe to a behaviourist > school, unless you > can generalize the term to include analysis of the emergence > of physical > patterns among collectives. Pattern formation within > sandpiles is more akin > to my specific interests than the behaviour of individual > animals. That is > always interesting too, but it isn't the focus of my inquiry here. > > Hugh Trenchard > > - Original Message - > From: "Peter Lissaman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 1:05 PM > Subject: [FRIAM] Will Rogers and Animal Behavior > > > > When he was given a brief description of the learned theories of Dr. > > Freud, > > and told that they accounted for all human behavior, Will > Rogers stated > > that: "he found it real interesting, but reckoned that in > Oklahoma, folks > > mainly did things jes' acause they felt like it". I gave a > paper at AIAA > > annual meeting in Reno earlier this week on birds > extracting energy from > > turbulence. There's a lot in it for the birdies, with their > low flight > > speeds, superb sensing and rapid response. Ravens in Santa Fe are > > marvellous aerobats in the turbulence rolling off the > Sangres. But why? > > When you see them rolling off perfect chandelles, as with > dolphins surfing > > and gamboling in the bow wave, you have to admit that > they're "jes' havin' > > fun", contrary to these gloomy animal "behavioristos" who > claim animals do > > everything for a reason. > > > > Peter Lissaman, Da Vinci Ventures > > > > Expertise is not knowing everything, but knowing what to look for. > > > > 1454 Miracerros Loop South, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505 > > TEL: (505) 983-7728FAX: (505) 983-1694 > > > > > > > > > > > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, > > archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
Re: [FRIAM] Will Rogers and Animal Behavior
> So the crows may very well be dancing, for all "practical" purposes... there's lots of evidence of this sort of thing. early settlers in the American west found bison running up to frozen lakes and then sliding across the ice. they'd do it over and over again. otters play, dogs dream, parrots have been very frequently reported formulating new sentences with their limited vocabularies. that doesn't necessarily invalidate the functional perspective, though. -- Giles Bowkett http://www.gilesgoatboy.org http://gilesbowkett.blogspot.com http://gilesgoatboy.blogspot.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
Re: [FRIAM] Will Rogers and Animal Behavior
Hugh, I would propose that what we call "aesthetics" is derived from what served our fitness over evolutionary time. So the crows may very well be dancing, for all "practical" purposes... db - Original Message - From: "Hugh Trenchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group" Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 6:04 PM Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Will Rogers and Animal Behavior >I for one am rarely afraid to ask questions, stupid or otherwise, when my > curiosity is piqued. > > Do the ravens in Sante Fe align in vee formations when they roll off > chandelles? If they do, then regardless of whether they are having fun, > it > is an interesting pattern formation which causes one to ask reasonably why > they choose such a formation. Do they do it for the sheer pleasure of the > esthetics of the vee formation? This would, it seems, entail some "fun" of > the formation, although I doubt I would find many people who would argue > that is the fun they derive. So then why is it fun that they should align > in > those formations? > > I myself wouldn't claim to subscribe to a behaviourist school, unless you > can generalize the term to include analysis of the emergence of physical > patterns among collectives. Pattern formation within sandpiles is more > akin > to my specific interests than the behaviour of individual animals. That is > always interesting too, but it isn't the focus of my inquiry here. > > Hugh Trenchard > > - Original Message - > From: "Peter Lissaman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 1:05 PM > Subject: [FRIAM] Will Rogers and Animal Behavior > > >> When he was given a brief description of the learned theories of Dr. >> Freud, >> and told that they accounted for all human behavior, Will Rogers stated >> that: "he found it real interesting, but reckoned that in Oklahoma, folks >> mainly did things jes' acause they felt like it". I gave a paper at AIAA >> annual meeting in Reno earlier this week on birds extracting energy from >> turbulence. There's a lot in it for the birdies, with their low flight >> speeds, superb sensing and rapid response. Ravens in Santa Fe are >> marvellous aerobats in the turbulence rolling off the Sangres. But why? >> When you see them rolling off perfect chandelles, as with dolphins >> surfing >> and gamboling in the bow wave, you have to admit that they're "jes' >> havin' >> fun", contrary to these gloomy animal "behavioristos" who claim animals >> do >> everything for a reason. >> >> Peter Lissaman, Da Vinci Ventures >> >> Expertise is not knowing everything, but knowing what to look for. >> >> 1454 Miracerros Loop South, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505 >> TEL: (505) 983-7728FAX: (505) 983-1694 >> >> >> >> >> >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > > > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
Re: [FRIAM] Will Rogers and Animal Behavior
I for one am rarely afraid to ask questions, stupid or otherwise, when my curiosity is piqued. Do the ravens in Sante Fe align in vee formations when they roll off chandelles? If they do, then regardless of whether they are having fun, it is an interesting pattern formation which causes one to ask reasonably why they choose such a formation. Do they do it for the sheer pleasure of the esthetics of the vee formation? This would, it seems, entail some "fun" of the formation, although I doubt I would find many people who would argue that is the fun they derive. So then why is it fun that they should align in those formations? I myself wouldn't claim to subscribe to a behaviourist school, unless you can generalize the term to include analysis of the emergence of physical patterns among collectives. Pattern formation within sandpiles is more akin to my specific interests than the behaviour of individual animals. That is always interesting too, but it isn't the focus of my inquiry here. Hugh Trenchard - Original Message - From: "Peter Lissaman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 1:05 PM Subject: [FRIAM] Will Rogers and Animal Behavior > When he was given a brief description of the learned theories of Dr. > Freud, > and told that they accounted for all human behavior, Will Rogers stated > that: "he found it real interesting, but reckoned that in Oklahoma, folks > mainly did things jes' acause they felt like it". I gave a paper at AIAA > annual meeting in Reno earlier this week on birds extracting energy from > turbulence. There's a lot in it for the birdies, with their low flight > speeds, superb sensing and rapid response. Ravens in Santa Fe are > marvellous aerobats in the turbulence rolling off the Sangres. But why? > When you see them rolling off perfect chandelles, as with dolphins surfing > and gamboling in the bow wave, you have to admit that they're "jes' havin' > fun", contrary to these gloomy animal "behavioristos" who claim animals do > everything for a reason. > > Peter Lissaman, Da Vinci Ventures > > Expertise is not knowing everything, but knowing what to look for. > > 1454 Miracerros Loop South, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505 > TEL: (505) 983-7728FAX: (505) 983-1694 > > > > > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
[FRIAM] Will Rogers and Animal Behavior
When he was given a brief description of the learned theories of Dr. Freud, and told that they accounted for all human behavior, Will Rogers stated that: "he found it real interesting, but reckoned that in Oklahoma, folks mainly did things jes' acause they felt like it". I gave a paper at AIAA annual meeting in Reno earlier this week on birds extracting energy from turbulence. There's a lot in it for the birdies, with their low flight speeds, superb sensing and rapid response. Ravens in Santa Fe are marvellous aerobats in the turbulence rolling off the Sangres. But why? When you see them rolling off perfect chandelles, as with dolphins surfing and gamboling in the bow wave, you have to admit that they're "jes' havin' fun", contrary to these gloomy animal "behavioristos" who claim animals do everything for a reason. Peter Lissaman, Da Vinci Ventures Expertise is not knowing everything, but knowing what to look for. 1454 Miracerros Loop South, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505 TEL: (505) 983-7728FAX: (505) 983-1694 FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
