Re: gEDA-user: Several PCB versions on 1 system
How stupid can one be ! Somewhere in my /opt/pcb-20070208/share was a script (called Pcb) setting the default libraries, of which one was called newlib. This setting shadowed my own newlib setting in the .pcb/preferences file/ grtz Simon - Original Message From: ST de Feber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: geda-user@moria.seul.org Sent: Tuesday, 3 April, 2007 1:26:36 PM Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Several PCB versions on 1 system Found the issue ! library-newlib = ./footprints:~/data/gaf/footprints/sdf The ./footprints: seems to be crucial ! grtz Simon ___ All New Yahoo! Mail – Tired of unwanted email come-ons? Let our SpamGuard protect you. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ What kind of emailer are you? Find out today - get a free analysis of your email personality. Take the quiz at the Yahoo! Mail Championship. http://uk.rd.yahoo.com/evt=44106/*http://mail.yahoo.net/uk ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: TwoStageAmp example
On Apr 3, 2007, at 3:37 PM, Dan McMahill wrote: I have to agree 100% with Al here. The ability to easily run the ac analysis at whatever operating point you have, be it from an explicit operating point analysis or where a transient stopped, is extremely important. Yep. Of course what a low level digital video designer wants is *noise* analysis at a particular point in time. And a simulator that could incorporate physical noise directly into a transient analysis would really get my attention. John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Looking for a project
On Tue, 2007-04-03 at 22:49, Dan McMahill wrote: > al davis wrote: > > > FM stereo generator. The broadcast ones are very expensive. > > You can buy one made for a lab cheap. It sort of works. A > > real broadcast one is simple but much more expensive. > > If anyone feels like building one of these, I can give some extra > guidance on analog implementations and how to test some of the > parameters using relatively basic instrumentation. Personally I think > this is a good project for dsp though. > > -Dan By coincidence, Dan Mills, dmills__a t__exponent.myzen.co.uk, a developer of rivendell ( http://rivendellaudio.org, a suite of broadcast automation software) has written a complete software audio/RDS FM multiplexer called stereocoder & a audio processor/look-ahead limiter front-end called louderbox ( borrowed from Jamin - a multiband compressor/limiter) that all runs on Jack (http://jackaudio.org - a callback based audio server). It basically spews 192kHz baseband PCM to stdout as-is. Just find a audio card that does 192kHz & you're smokin... his cvs is hosted at Salem Radio Labs (watch the wrap) cvs -d:pserver:[EMAIL PROTECTED]:/home/cvs login cvs -d:pserver:[EMAIL PROTECTED]:/home/cvs co louderbox stereocoder ... but as Salem is no longer the primary sponsor of Rivendellaudio, that may change. He may also have an alternate cvs. I asked Dan some time ago if he was interested in shoehorning his coder into a Blackfin DSP, but he has moved on to other FOSS broadcast challenges. If people are interested further, I'm sure he wouldn't mind a chat. -- Greg ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Design Flow Roadmap starting point
From: al davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Design Flow Roadmap starting point Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 20:22:34 -0400 Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > On Tuesday 03 April 2007 19:38, Magnus Danielson wrote: > > From: al davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > I was thinking of using the gnucap "CS" parser class, and > > > doing it like everything else in gnucap, as a language > > > plugin. I am guessing that VHDL will be about 50 lines of > > > code, Verilog will be about 50 lines of code, Spice will be > > > about 2000 lines of code, pcb about 100 lines, not sure > > > about gschem. > > > > Need to look at the gnucap parser class stuff. Otherwise I > > agree. > > The line count is a guess. My point is that VHDL and Verilog > are about the same. Spice is the worst one of all. Others are > between. The fact that VHDL and Verilog are so regular makes > the parsers and generators small. The Spice parser and > generator is huge because the language is so irregular. It > seems every component is different. Index finger to thumb measures are fine. :) The point about irregular languages is indeed a good one. > > Certainly, but for a sufficiently complex thing, type > > filtering isn't helping unless you can construct new types > > out of the old and name them as you like. Compound types of > > various sort comes to mind after some time and ka-bang things > > got a bit complex again. Filtering on attribute names is > > probably a better appoach most of the times. > > That is way too complicated. The type is just a name, used to > group things, so they can be filtered as groups. I was talking about type as in integer, real, string, bit etc. Thus the confusion. > Without > changing anything, it is possible to just use a naming > convention and partial matching to select. I am thinking of > groups like simulation parameters, the hidden attributes that > make gschem work, layout stuff, data coming back from a > simulator. The names cannot be determined in advance. Strings > like what we do now for things like spice sources is not the > way to go long term. To store it, it would need to be able to > be encoded as a single string anyway, so it might make sense to > just do that and forget doing anything special. > Thus, the only type you initially intend to support is string. However, many named constants/attributes/generics of the type string is in there. I forsee alot of other side-information that follows along. We might need different architectures depending on which simulator is going to handle things. A simulation model for one form may not have the same names as another etc. You would also like attributes to propagate out of devices, so that we can have for a signal the shortest rise and fall times, which is immensly usefull for SI and EMC work, just to name one. If you take a few steps back, there are more of these things. Cheers, Magnus ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: simulation advice
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > It recently took me five minutes to sweet-talk openoffice into > letting me type "MHz" correctly. Yet another reason to use vi and troff instead of OO. > Good thing for me I rarely use word processors of any kind. > I'm a TeXhead from way back. So why were you using OO rather than TeX then? MS ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Design Flow Roadmap starting point
On Tuesday 03 April 2007 19:38, Magnus Danielson wrote: > From: al davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > I was thinking of using the gnucap "CS" parser class, and > > doing it like everything else in gnucap, as a language > > plugin. I am guessing that VHDL will be about 50 lines of > > code, Verilog will be about 50 lines of code, Spice will be > > about 2000 lines of code, pcb about 100 lines, not sure > > about gschem. > > Need to look at the gnucap parser class stuff. Otherwise I > agree. The line count is a guess. My point is that VHDL and Verilog are about the same. Spice is the worst one of all. Others are between. The fact that VHDL and Verilog are so regular makes the parsers and generators small. The Spice parser and generator is huge because the language is so irregular. It seems every component is different. > Certainly, but for a sufficiently complex thing, type > filtering isn't helping unless you can construct new types > out of the old and name them as you like. Compound types of > various sort comes to mind after some time and ka-bang things > got a bit complex again. Filtering on attribute names is > probably a better appoach most of the times. That is way too complicated. The type is just a name, used to group things, so they can be filtered as groups. Without changing anything, it is possible to just use a naming convention and partial matching to select. I am thinking of groups like simulation parameters, the hidden attributes that make gschem work, layout stuff, data coming back from a simulator. The names cannot be determined in advance. Strings like what we do now for things like spice sources is not the way to go long term. To store it, it would need to be able to be encoded as a single string anyway, so it might make sense to just do that and forget doing anything special. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: VMWare image of Ubuntu distribution of Linux with gEDA installed.
John Griessen wrote: Steve Morss's VMWare image with gEDA is available on my server until people use up too much bandwidth. That will happen after 50 downloads See http://foseda.com/ the link gEDA-on-Linux-on-VMWare John Griessen PS I have not tested it yet. Do you have a checksum for it Steve? ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user I have about 100 GB/month extra bandwidth and can mirror it if you run out. I wouldn't mind hosting anything else gEDA related as well. Darrell Harmon Darrell Harmon ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Design Flow Roadmap starting point
From: al davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Design Flow Roadmap starting point Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 19:08:27 -0400 Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Al, > All that is needed is the basic framework. It is really simple. > Most of everything is out, but by picking a standard language > there is a pre-determined way to add later if we need it. Certainly. My point with the exercise was to show just how much of VHDL that is not going in. > > What we need is: > > > > Entity declaration (with generics and ports). > > Architecture. > > Instantiation of other entities. > > Assignment of attributes and generics. > > Assignment of signals. > > UREF's could be converted into labels. > > Not even all of that. Maybe not. This was a very quick and coarse subset exercise. What is needed is a somewhat large subset of VHDL than the current gnetlist VHDL backend generates. You can actually take that subset and extend out from that until you have the features you need. I beleive the relevant comments is still there to help guidance through the VHDL LRM. :-) > > This is not complex stuff and it should be fairly easy to > > generate parser and dumper in C or C++, especially if one > > uses PCCTS/ANTLR. > > I was thinking of using the gnucap "CS" parser class, and doing > it like everything else in gnucap, as a language plugin. I am > guessing that VHDL will be about 50 lines of code, Verilog will > be about 50 lines of code, Spice will be about 2000 lines of > code, pcb about 100 lines, not sure about gschem. Need to look at the gnucap parser class stuff. Otherwise I agree. > The idea is a common framework that gets them all. It must be > able to both parse it and generate it. Certainly. However, many formast have their quirks and limits, so in the end you will find that many formats will be hard to fully support. > > > gnetlist has served us well so far, but we have learned a > > > lot by doing it and using it, and it is time to move on. > > > > Indeed. > > There is lot of old stuff like that. That is my opinion of > Spice, too. It has served us well, time to move on. At least > a few of its creators think so too. Certainly. With "modern" things like VHDL and XML you can take a fresh start, gain a little and loose a little. I've never been a fan of XMLizing things for its own sake thought. > > > gschem attributes need to have types. The type is just a > > > string, but important. That way one type can be those > > > passed to a simulator, another can be those passed back > > > from the simulator, etc. Since the type is just a string, > > > new types can be added at any time. An attribute should be > > > able to have multiple types. > > > > Your uses of types confuses me here. > > The idea here is that if attributes have types it is easy to > filter out or select all attributes of a given type. It also > is easy to make translators. Certainly, but for a sufficiently complex thing, type filtering isn't helping unless you can construct new types out of the old and name them as you like. Compound types of various sort comes to mind after some time and ka-bang things got a bit complex again. Filtering on attribute names is probably a better appoach most of the times. Cheers, Magnus ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
gEDA-user: Re: Icarus Verilog PLI example: PLI_INT32 vs static int
Günter Dannoritzer wrote: > I modified the vpi_user.c to not needing the other application that > comes along with that chapter 2 example and compiled it with: > > iverilog-vpi pow_vpi.c vpi_user.c > iverilog -opow_test.vvp pow_test.v > vvp -M. mpow_vpi pow_test.vvp > > The output I am getting is: > > $pow PLI application is being used. > > Segmentation fault I don't know what you are doing wrong, if anything. Please file this as a bug report so that it doesn't get lost, because I will want to deal with this. You have looked at the User Guide in the iverilog.wikia.com wiki documentation, yes? If those examples fail for you, then report that bug with a high priority!-O -- Steve Williams"The woods are lovely, dark and deep. steve at icarus.com But I have promises to keep, http://www.icarus.com and lines to code before I sleep, http://www.picturel.com And lines to code before I sleep." ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: TwoStageAmp example
On Tuesday 03 April 2007 17:37, Dan McMahill wrote: > I have to agree 100% with Al here. The ability to easily run > the ac analysis at whatever operating point you have, be it > from an explicit operating point analysis or where a > transient stopped, is extremely important. Al's class-B amp > is a good example because of course the output devices > undergo very large signal changes and you should be concerned > with small signal stability over the entire output range. > Other circuits may not have a d.c. operating point that means > anything. The real fun one with the class-B amp is that the usual Spice operating point is exactly in the middle of the crossover region. If there really is no quiescent current, the AC analysis gives you no output at all. If you bias it up a bit, now class-AB, the current is still low, making the transconductance low, making the output impedance high, still useless. Try a two-tone test and you can see a reason why some early transistor amplifiers sounded so bad. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Design Flow Roadmap starting point
On Tuesday 03 April 2007 18:36, Magnus Danielson wrote: > You can strip of many things from VHDL which you will not > initially need. What you end up with very quickly is a small > subset which brings much of the properties which gedas > textual format has. It should be fairly easy to do so. > > Hierarchial stuff is trivial. > Attributes is trivial. > > >From this you can then selectively add things from the VHDL > > standard at need. > > What should one cut out or cut down then? > > Design entities and configurations (Section 1) - all but > config (1.3) Subprograms and packages (Section 2) - cut out > Types (Section 3) - cut down considerably > Declarations (Section 4) - cut down > Specifications (Section 5) - most if not all is in > Names (Section 6) - most if not all is in > Expressions (Section 7) - initially all cut out > Sequential statements (Section 8) - initially all cut out > Concurrent statements (Section 9) - all but 9.5 and 9.6 which > however is cut down All that is needed is the basic framework. It is really simple. Most of everything is out, but by picking a standard language there is a pre-determined way to add later if we need it. > > What we need is: > > Entity declaration (with generics and ports). > Architecture. > Instantiation of other entities. > Assignment of attributes and generics. > Assignment of signals. > UREF's could be converted into labels. Not even all of that. > This is not complex stuff and it should be fairly easy to > generate parser and dumper in C or C++, especially if one > uses PCCTS/ANTLR. I was thinking of using the gnucap "CS" parser class, and doing it like everything else in gnucap, as a language plugin. I am guessing that VHDL will be about 50 lines of code, Verilog will be about 50 lines of code, Spice will be about 2000 lines of code, pcb about 100 lines, not sure about gschem. The idea is a common framework that gets them all. It must be able to both parse it and generate it. > > gnetlist has served us well so far, but we have learned a > > lot by doing it and using it, and it is time to move on. > > Indeed. There is lot of old stuff like that. That is my opinion of Spice, too. It has served us well, time to move on. At least a few of its creators think so too. > > gschem attributes need to have types. The type is just a > > string, but important. That way one type can be those > > passed to a simulator, another can be those passed back > > from the simulator, etc. Since the type is just a string, > > new types can be added at any time. An attribute should be > > able to have multiple types. > > Your uses of types confuses me here. The idea here is that if attributes have types it is easy to filter out or select all attributes of a given type. It also is easy to make translators. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB puller tool
I put a copy of the modified src/puller.c here: http://www.delorie.com/pcb/puller/puller.c :GlobalPuller :GlobalPuller(selected) :GlobalPuller(found) Just replace your existing src/puller.c with it and recompile. It affects the current layer only. MAKE SURE YOU HAVE A BACKUP OF YOUR .PCB FILE! ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB puller tool
Thanks, puller in the command window worked, i wish i knew gtk better so i could map Y to puller in gtk the global puller might be interesting :-) Steve On Apr 3, 2007, at 12:49 PM, DJ Delorie wrote: In the GTK hid of PCB I can't seem to use the puller tool, is this a lesstif only? Likely. I hooked in the puller through pcb-menu.res just to test it. You should be able to use :puller in gtk, then maybe have to click on where you want to pull. If you like the puller, I can send you the patch for the global puller, which produces a beautiful board 90% of the time and random scribbles the other 10% of the time. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Design Flow Roadmap starting point
From: al davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Design Flow Roadmap starting point Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2007 01:29:07 -0400 Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Al, (Jumping into the discussion mid-waters) > I still believe we need an interchange file format, that should > be a VHDL derivative. VHDL has most of the capabilities > needed, and is an industry standard. If something is missing, > we can add it, and propose it back to the standards committee. > They might even welcome it. I think that VHDL is a very good boiler-plate. This approach was used for Boundary Scan files. You can strip of many things from VHDL which you will not initially need. What you end up with very quickly is a small subset which brings much of the properties which gedas textual format has. It should be fairly easy to do so. Hierarchial stuff is trivial. Attributes is trivial. >From this you can then selectively add things from the VHDL standard at need. What should one cut out or cut down then? Design entities and configurations (Section 1) - all but config (1.3) Subprograms and packages (Section 2) - cut out Types (Section 3) - cut down considerably Declarations (Section 4) - cut down Specifications (Section 5) - most if not all is in Names (Section 6) - most if not all is in Expressions (Section 7) - initially all cut out Sequential statements (Section 8) - initially all cut out Concurrent statements (Section 9) - all but 9.5 and 9.6 which however is cut down This is just a swift walk-through of the VHDL standard (using the VHDL-93 that was lying on my desk anyway). Whatever is needed to support AMS infra- structure (i.e. analog signals), which should not be very much. What we need is: Entity declaration (with generics and ports). Architecture. Instantiation of other entities. Assignment of attributes and generics. Assignment of signals. UREF's could be converted into labels. This is not complex stuff and it should be fairly easy to generate parser and dumper in C or C++, especially if one uses PCCTS/ANTLR. Writing up a VHDL equalent format for the geda netlist format should not be too hard. If you want to go beyond the geda netlist format constrains of today, it is fairly easy to do. The one thing which I am not up to date on is how modern character sets is handled etc. > gnetlist really needs to be redone, from the ground up. This > VHDL based intermediate format is the way to do it. > > gnetlist has served us well so far, but we have learned a lot by > doing it and using it, and it is time to move on. Indeed. > > * Similarly, how should gnetlist behave? A use-case list > > would be useful. > > Any extraction should preserve hierarchy, in hopes that the > target tool also benefits from it. If it doesn't, you need a > separate flattener pass, separate from the translation. In a gnetlist rewrite, a flattener could be written and called for those backends that need it. In the other direction, naming conventions may alow for de-flatenations in some cases, so support for that may also be considered. > Regardless, the translation must be 100%, lossless, in both > directions. Indeed. > gschem attributes need to have types. The type is just a > string, but important. That way one type can be those passed > to a simulator, another can be those passed back from the > simulator, etc. Since the type is just a string, new types can > be added at any time. An attribute should be able to have > multiple types. Your uses of types confuses me here. In a future, it is not necessarilly only strings, but it is a good first assumption. > > > * Finally, how should PCB behave with a hierarchical > > schematic? > > Right click on a symbol, select "go inside", and another drawing > opens up showing what's inside. gschem also should act this > way. Indeed. Cheers, Magnus ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Multiple open pages in gschem
Story time, back when I was in middle school, early 90's. I have a friend that was a Mac fanatic, my constant source of teasing was the one button mouse. Then one day he brought in his 8 button mouse for a Mac. I was schooled, as at that time windows boxes had a hard time with three buttons. Steve On Apr 3, 2007, at 12:53 PM, DJ Delorie wrote: Gotcha. I use a one-button mouse on my main web-browsing machine, though. ;) Story time... At my previous job, I once worked with the marketing people to put together an interactive web site publishing system (I did the "system" part, they did the web site). They had macs. I had a sparcstation. They noticed I was doing a lot of editing without using the keyboard. "Hey, how do you do all that?". I picked up the three-button mouse and showed it to them. "See these other buttons?" They were enlightened. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: TwoStageAmp example
al davis wrote: Rather, Gnucap should do a check before running an analysis to verify that the operating point has already been computed and is known. If it's unknown, then Gnucap should print out a warning like "No operating point -- you probably need to run op". That would be an improvement, but the power off test is a valid test, and you don't need to do it for a linear circuit. It probably should print a warning whenever "ac" is done after anything other that "op", because only after an "op" will it give the same answers as Spice. If you do "ac" after "tran" it will use the last step of the "tran" as the operating point. This is extremely valuable if you are doing real analog work. I really need to write up that Class-B amplifier example to show it. I have to agree 100% with Al here. The ability to easily run the ac analysis at whatever operating point you have, be it from an explicit operating point analysis or where a transient stopped, is extremely important. Al's class-B amp is a good example because of course the output devices undergo very large signal changes and you should be concerned with small signal stability over the entire output range. Other circuits may not have a d.c. operating point that means anything. Probably, it should always print a note: "using operating point xxx". that would be useful. -Dan ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: simulation advice
al davis wrote: On Tuesday 03 April 2007 15:02, Patrick Doyle wrote: I'm a 20 year Unix veteran. I prefer case sensitivity :-) The issue here is not preference but conformance to a published standard (Verilog) or to an unwritten understanding in Spice. Actually, early versions of Spice (in Fortran) were case sensitive. A mix is annoying. The only reason I let it go in gnucap is "that part of the code is planned for major rework anyway". Specifically, there will be language plug-ins that will determine the syntax that is read, finally truly solving the spice compatibility problem. Actually ... I too prefer case sensitivity. I also prefer case sensitivity although this touches on something painful. Many tools, especially older ones, have more restrictive rules for things like net names and refdes names. So you have to be careful. As an example in gschem/gnetlist "R1" and "r1" are unique as are "Input" and "INPUT". There is a framework in gnetlist for mapping to a more restrictive format (for example by converting to uppercase and truncating to 8 characters if thats what a backend needs) while monitoring for collisions created by doing so. However I'm willing to bet that not all backends which need this functionality actually have this functionality. -Dan ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: simulation advice
On Tuesday 03 April 2007 17:05, Patrick Doyle wrote: > Speaking of patches, features, and recompiles... > I just typed "edit" at the Gnucap prompt for a somewhat > modified, but basically the same netlist as I gave you > previously, was rewarded with the netlist showing up in my > emacs, exited out, and got back a bunch of syntax errors > from Gnucap. > > I can give you more details if you would like. Known bug. Mostly in the snapshot. I know what it is. > I can take discussions of Gnucap misunderstandings and > irregularities to a different forum if you would like. There is a gnucap developer list (gnucap-devel@gnu.org) and a user help list (help-gnucap@gnu.org). ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: simulation advice
Since you mentioned it, and I didn't think of it before, it is
easy to change it, so I did ..
Here's the patch ..
in the file "d_bjt.model"
Find:
public_keys {
NPN polarity=pN;
PNP polarity=pP;
}
Change it to:
public_keys {
NPN polarity=pN;
PNP polarity=pP;
NPN1 polarity=pN;
PNP1 polarity=pP;
}
-- and recompile.
Speaking of patches, features, and recompiles...
I just typed "edit" at the Gnucap prompt for a somewhat modified, but
basically the same netlist as I gave you previously, was rewarded with
the netlist showing up in my emacs, exited out, and got back a bunch
of syntax errors from Gnucap.
I can give you more details if you would like.
I can take discussions of Gnucap misunderstandings and irregularities
to a different forum if you would like.
--wpd
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Re: gEDA-user: simulation advice
David - On Tue, Apr 03, 2007 at 04:52:52PM -0400, David Kerber wrote: > There's a much shallower option to add [MHz] to the dictionary, so it will > even correct it next time... Openoffice didn't just show it with a red squiggly underline, it actively changed it as soon as I typed it. How could I add it to the dictionary? Never mind. I don't really want to know. All I need to know is that vim never does that to me. - Larry ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
RE: gEDA-user: simulation advice
There's a much shallower option to add that to the dictionary, so it will even correct it next time... Dave > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 4:37 PM > To: gEDA user mailing list > Subject: Re: gEDA-user: simulation advice > > On Tue, Apr 03, 2007 at 04:00:24PM -0400, DJ Delorie wrote: > > > > I have enough problems with my word processor changing case when I > > don't want it to, I certainly don't need my file system > doing it too. > > It recently took me five minutes to sweet-talk openoffice > into letting me type "MHz" correctly. There is an option > deep in the menus to turn off auto-correction of this "mistake". > > Good thing for me I rarely use word processors of any kind. > I'm a TeXhead from way back. > >- Larry > > > ___ > geda-user mailing list > geda-user@moria.seul.org > http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user > ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: simulation advice
On Apr 3, 2007, at 4:28 PM, Ryan Seal wrote: As a windows user who does java programming (which is case- sensitive), I can understand being used to it, but why would you actually prefer it? I can tell you why *I* prefer case-sensitivity. It makes sense. 'A' is simply not the same thing as 'a'. Even in something as imprecise as the English language, they are used differently. Making things insensitive to case involves expending effort to reduce accuracy...and that really seems dumb to me. I just had a "Windows flashback" thinking of case sensitivity. I was recently coerced into reviewing some VC++ code using VisualStudio - what a freaking nightmare. People speak of this IDE system as if it fell from the sky - it is actually the most unintuitive, complex piece of garbage I have ever laid eyes on. Case insensitivity is at the top of the PITA list for non-windows developers. Case sensitivity and code development (and general file/ directory organization for some) go hand in hand. Absolutely. Some VC++ "developers" actually hit puberty and become programmers. Some. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: simulation advice
On Tue, Apr 03, 2007 at 04:00:24PM -0400, DJ Delorie wrote: > > I have enough problems with my word processor changing case when I > don't want it to, I certainly don't need my file system doing it too. It recently took me five minutes to sweet-talk openoffice into letting me type "MHz" correctly. There is an option deep in the menus to turn off auto-correction of this "mistake". Good thing for me I rarely use word processors of any kind. I'm a TeXhead from way back. - Larry ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: simulation advice
Dave McGuire wrote: On Apr 3, 2007, at 3:25 PM, David Kerber wrote: As a windows user who does java programming (which is case-sensitive), I can understand being used to it, but why would you actually prefer it? I can tell you why *I* prefer case-sensitivity. It makes sense. 'A' is simply not the same thing as 'a'. Even in something as imprecise as the English language, they are used differently. Making things insensitive to case involves expending effort to reduce accuracy...and that really seems dumb to me. I just had a "Windows flashback" thinking of case sensitivity. I was recently coerced into reviewing some VC++ code using VisualStudio - what a freaking nightmare. People speak of this IDE system as if it fell from the sky - it is actually the most unintuitive, complex piece of garbage I have ever laid eyes on. Case insensitivity is at the top of the PITA list for non-windows developers. Case sensitivity and code development (and general file/directory organization for some) go hand in hand. Ryan ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: simulation advice
I have enough problems with my word processor changing case when I don't want it to, I certainly don't need my file system doing it too. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: simulation advice
On Apr 3, 2007, at 3:25 PM, David Kerber wrote: As a windows user who does java programming (which is case- sensitive), I can understand being used to it, but why would you actually prefer it? I can tell you why *I* prefer case-sensitivity. It makes sense. 'A' is simply not the same thing as 'a'. Even in something as imprecise as the English language, they are used differently. Making things insensitive to case involves expending effort to reduce accuracy...and that really seems dumb to me. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Multiple open pages in gschem
On Apr 3, 2007, at 3:53 PM, DJ Delorie wrote: Gotcha. I use a one-button mouse on my main web-browsing machine, though. ;) Story time... At my previous job, I once worked with the marketing people to put together an interactive web site publishing system (I did the "system" part, they did the web site). They had macs. I had a sparcstation. They noticed I was doing a lot of editing without using the keyboard. "Hey, how do you do all that?". I picked up the three-button mouse and showed it to them. "See these other buttons?" They were enlightened. *snicker* Well I'm a Unix guy first and foremost, and only really started using Macs when they (effectively) became damn fine Unix workstations. All of my design work happens on a Sun Ray terminal back-ended by a studly multiprocessor UltraSPARC-III box. The Sun Ray has a three-button mouse. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Multiple open pages in gschem
>Gotcha. I use a one-button mouse on my main web-browsing machine, > though. ;) Story time... At my previous job, I once worked with the marketing people to put together an interactive web site publishing system (I did the "system" part, they did the web site). They had macs. I had a sparcstation. They noticed I was doing a lot of editing without using the keyboard. "Hey, how do you do all that?". I picked up the three-button mouse and showed it to them. "See these other buttons?" They were enlightened. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB puller tool
> In the GTK hid of PCB I can't seem to use the puller tool, is this a > lesstif only? Likely. I hooked in the puller through pcb-menu.res just to test it. You should be able to use :puller in gtk, then maybe have to click on where you want to pull. If you like the puller, I can send you the patch for the global puller, which produces a beautiful board 90% of the time and random scribbles the other 10% of the time. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: simulation advice
On Tuesday 03 April 2007 15:02, Patrick Doyle wrote: > I'm a 20 year Unix veteran. I prefer case sensitivity :-) The issue here is not preference but conformance to a published standard (Verilog) or to an unwritten understanding in Spice. Actually, early versions of Spice (in Fortran) were case sensitive. A mix is annoying. The only reason I let it go in gnucap is "that part of the code is planned for major rework anyway". Specifically, there will be language plug-ins that will determine the syntax that is read, finally truly solving the spice compatibility problem. Actually ... I too prefer case sensitivity. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Multiple open pages in gschem
On Apr 3, 2007, at 3:44 PM, evan foss wrote: > Hmm, my Firefox has a "close tab" button on the right of each > tab. That seems to be very effective. Middle-clicking on the tab is a faster way to close it, if you know that trick - it's faster because you only have to aim for the tab (not the little cross inside the tab). I'm not sure if Firefox allows you to turn off the little cross, but other browsers (eg. Opera) do. I like the keybindings ctrl-w to close a tab, ctrl-t to open and ctrl-n for a new window. I frequently use those as well, they are nice shortcuts. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Multiple open pages in gschem
On Apr 3, 2007, at 3:41 PM, Karl. wrote: Hmm, my Firefox has a "close tab" button on the right of each tab. That seems to be very effective. Middle-clicking on the tab is a faster way to close it, if you know that trick - it's faster because you only have to aim for the tab (not the little cross inside the tab). I'm not sure if Firefox allows you to turn off the little cross, but other browsers (eg. Opera) do. Gotcha. I use a one-button mouse on my main web-browsing machine, though. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
gEDA-user: PCB puller tool
Folks, In the GTK hid of PCB I can't seem to use the puller tool, is this a lesstif only? Pressing 'Y' while over the line/arc junction doesn't seem to do anything. strings pcb | grep puller does show that the puller object file was linked in. Steve ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Multiple open pages in gschem
On 4/3/07, Karl. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hmm, my Firefox has a "close tab" button on the right of each > tab. That seems to be very effective. Middle-clicking on the tab is a faster way to close it, if you know that trick - it's faster because you only have to aim for the tab (not the little cross inside the tab). I'm not sure if Firefox allows you to turn off the little cross, but other browsers (eg. Opera) do. I like the keybindings ctrl-w to close a tab, ctrl-t to open and ctrl-n for a new window. -- http://www.coe.neu.edu/~efoss/ http://evanfoss.googlepages.com/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Multiple open pages in gschem
> Hmm, my Firefox has a "close tab" button on the right of each > tab. That seems to be very effective. Middle-clicking on the tab is a faster way to close it, if you know that trick - it's faster because you only have to aim for the tab (not the little cross inside the tab). I'm not sure if Firefox allows you to turn off the little cross, but other browsers (eg. Opera) do. Karl. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: simulation advice
On 4/3/07, David Kerber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: As a windows user who does java programming (which is case-sensitive), I can understand being used to it, but why would you actually prefer it? habit, comfort, discipline, golly I've never really thought too much about it before. --wpd ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
RE: gEDA-user: simulation advice
As a windows user who does java programming (which is case-sensitive), I can understand being used to it, but why would you actually prefer it? Dave > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Doyle > Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 3:03 PM > To: gEDA user mailing list > Subject: Re: gEDA-user: simulation advice > > On 4/3/07, al davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > One more point ... > > > > Node names are case sensitive. > > > > I suppose I should change it, but that part of the code is > planned for > > major rework anyway, and Verilog is supposed to be case sensitive. > > I'm a 20 year Unix veteran. I prefer case sensitivity :-) > > --wpd > > > ___ > geda-user mailing list > geda-user@moria.seul.org > http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user > ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: simulation advice
On 4/3/07, al davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: One more point ... Node names are case sensitive. I suppose I should change it, but that part of the code is planned for major rework anyway, and Verilog is supposed to be case sensitive. I'm a 20 year Unix veteran. I prefer case sensitivity :-) --wpd ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: simulation advice
One more point ... Node names are case sensitive. I suppose I should change it, but that part of the code is planned for major rework anyway, and Verilog is supposed to be case sensitive. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: TwoStageAmp example
On Tuesday 03 April 2007 11:11, Patrick Doyle wrote: > Should I (especially as a simulation newbie) not be using the > development snapshot? I grabbed that one when I discovered > that the 0.34 version installed by yum wouldn't load my spice > netlist. Looking around now, I see that I should have > followed the "Old versions" link on the webpage instead of > the "Development releases" link, and I could be playing with > 0.35 instead. You should not be using 0.34. As to the choice of 0.35 or the development snapshot, it depends on what you want. If you want to get involved and help development, you should use the snapshot. Newbie help is actually very important. You uncover things that I would not, and that a long time gnucap user would not. That is extremely valuable. Many of the existing followers of gnucap are in it because of the developing native Verilog-AMS support, which is not available in free software now. It is available only in high priced proprietary software. These people are, at least for now, the strongest supporters. The other group, more active users, is those who need what gnucap now offers, which is the extra probes, the extra flexibility in how the commands interact, the fourier command that really works. There are not many beginners using it, in spite of the interaction that is actually better for beginners, if you don't fall into the almost-spice trap. There is a real problem with beginner documentation. If you use spice documentation, you will see the problems but none of the advantages. Also, gnetlist only has partial support. My priority has been to get Verilog-AMS working. Documentation, the web page, and other things like that have fallen behind. The NG-spice project has put most of its effort into documentation, the web page, and things like that. The real development in NGspice has been almost all finding things done elsewhere and including them. Kind of an anti-fork. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Design Lab Equipment
On Apr 3, 2007, at 2:04 PM, Ryan Seal wrote: If you are familiar with C I'd suggest a microcontroller that is capable of being programmed in C, assembly can be tighter and cleaner, but that takes practice. I am fond of the Atmel AVR series, and the GCC tool chain that goes along with it, it is also convient for OS X and Linux users, as the basic stamps native environment is windows. yes they have compilers and such for linux, but the AVRs have better OS X support. With the GCC tool chain you have the ability to use both assembly and C I also like the microchip PIC line. CCS offers a nice compiler in Linux for about 80 bucks (with a student discount) - but, if you are new to all of this, I would second the motion for the Atmel AVR series as well; since they offer the gcc avr compiler for Linux. I purchased the STK500 kit from digi-key some time ago and am still waiting on a free moment to evaluate it. The CCS compiler is *excellent*...it produces extremely tight code and is easy to use. Sadly I didn't get the student discount but it is well worth even the full price! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: simulation advice
On 4/3/07, al davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Tuesday 03 April 2007 14:08, al davis wrote: > It still gets a warning on the "NK" > parameter, and ignores it. That is the same in gnucap or > ngspice, or in gnucap with spice3f5 of ngspice models. Actually, it is a one-liner to add the parameter. I don't know what it does. It is probably easy to add that too, but I don't know. Thanks... I just removed that line from my model file, which seems like an even simpler solution. BTW, I applied the patch you suggested and I'm now up and running in Gnucap. I still don't know why the simulation doesn't match my observations on the real HW, but I'm getting closer now. I expect that the ability to probe voltages at various nodes in my circuit and compare them to the actual observations will help a lot here. Thanks again. --wpd ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: simulation advice
On Tuesday 03 April 2007 14:08, al davis wrote:
> It still gets a warning on the "NK"
> parameter, and ignores it. That is the same in gnucap or
> ngspice, or in gnucap with spice3f5 of ngspice models.
Actually, it is a one-liner to add the parameter. I don't know
what it does. It is probably easy to add that too, but I don't
know.
To add the parameter so you don't get a warning, again in
d_bjt.model
Somewhere in
model BJT {
.
independent {
..
raw_parameters {
// add the line:
double nk "don't know what this is" name=NK;
.. and you won't see that warning because now NK is a recognized
parameter. I am not doing it in the official one but you can.
There are a few rough spots in the .model files. I am not
fixing them unless they are big problems because I want to
change them all to Verilog-AMS. I want to minimize work on the
detour so I can work on the real thing.
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Re: gEDA-user: Multiple open pages in gschem
Peter Clifton wrote: I'm hoping to conduct a brief census of people who use multiple pages in gschem. I'm working on some code-changes to libgeda which may change the navigation model slightly, and wanted to see how it is used now. This is a feature which confuses some new users, as it can make work "disappear" behind a new page. I'm also unsure if the "user-model" (what the user thinks the program does), matches the program's behaviour: Do you use multiple windows running from the same copy of gschem? No. Do you use multiple running copies of gschem? No, but if I had 2 designs and needed to reference one while drawing the other, I might. Do you use these for related schematics? (Do you tend to have multiple pages from the same design?) The designs wouldn't be the same design (as stated above). How much use do you make of hierarchy traversal? (Schematic or symbol down, up, page next, page previous)? Use symbol up and down to modify symbols. For testing, I've got a version of gschem which just opens a pages in a flat list. These can be traversed using toolbar buttons, just like a document viewer. This significantly simplifies some code, and UI presentation issues for a complex nested hierarchy. I'm also considering it might be best to launch a new window for each hierarchy level, reserving multiple pages in one window to tie directly to the case where a single level of hierarchy has multiple pages. This is probably something I'll do whilst I develop the extended data-structure needed to be more flexible with viewing the hierarchy. Example screenshots are at: http://www2.eng.cam.ac.uk/~pcjc2/geda/gschem_page_navi.png http://www2.eng.cam.ac.uk/~pcjc2/geda/gschem_page_navi2.png Looks very good. Nice to have a graphical way of going from page to page when getting started with gschem ; the current page manager can be awkward, as it often gets lost behind other windows. Arrows are a nice touch, because they don't chew up a lot of screen real estate. Steve (Same pic, just a different page loaded in each case). Regards. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: simulation advice
The reason it works with ng-spice and not gnucap is that it was written for ng-spice not gnucap. Gnucap doesn't have levels for the BJT unless you use plugins. You uncovered a bug that came about with the plugins -- in how it handles that. The old version would just ignore the level keyword. The current one got an error because it only found a "PNP" with no level, as opposed to a PNP level 1. The bug is that the arrow points to the wrong place. Spice 3f5 would not accept the level either. It still gets a warning on the "NK" parameter, and ignores it. That is the same in gnucap or ngspice, or in gnucap with spice3f5 of ngspice models. Since you mentioned it, and I didn't think of it before, it is easy to change it, so I did .. Thanks... I'll go apply the patch, thus answering my question whether I should be running a development snapshot or a release snapshot -- 2 answers for the price of one question, very economical :-) Then you have the ".include Simulation.cmd" in the middle of the circuit description. That's an artifact of "gnetlist spice-sdb" -- I'm not sure how it decides where to put the .INCLUDE directives, but in the limited (3 or so) examples at which I've looked, they seem to show up somewhere in the middle. Inside it, you have the print after the tran command. That's an artifact of me trying to figure out how to use ngspice in batch mode. When I first started playing with my circuit, I loaded it into ngspice, executed the "OP" command, printed voltages out at various nodes, typed "quit", typed "yes" when I was asked if I really wanted to quit, and got tired of all of that typing. So I tried putting the OP command into the script, but when I read the documentation for the .PRINT command, it didn't seem like it supported a PRTYPE of OP (I guess I could have just tried it -- maybe I did). So I changed to a transient analysis with the thinking that I just wanted to print out the steady state value at the end. Putting the simulation commands in the middle of the circuit description gives you a simulation of the part of the circuit you have up to that point. It works, but gives a different result than the whole circuit would. This is another difference between gnucap and spice. The gnucap way allows you to build a circuit in steps and test after each step. Build part, test it, build another stage, test it. Or .. build it, test it, change it, test again, ... You can't do this in spice. That's cool. Thanks once again... --wpd ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Design Lab Equipment
As an aside for the r8c, I have a .pcb file for an eval board for the R8C sdip-20 chips, which breaks out the chip to 100 mil headers and includes the oscillator: http://www.delorie.com/pcb/r8c-1b-adapter/ Renesas was almost giving away the starterkits for them a while back. Digikey carries them (but doesn't stock them, so there's a wait). They range in price from $38 to $300 depending on how big the board is, and they all come with cables and tools. Search for "renesas mini starterkit" at digikey.com. They're easy to program; just a few gpio and a ttl-level serial port. Some of the newer ones can be programmed with a single gpio line (bidirectional serial). Also, bug reports with the gnu tools get fixed pretty quickly ;-) The register configuration is a little weird, though. That's a plus for assembly programmers (wide range of choices) but it made the gcc port more complicated. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Design Lab Equipment
On Tuesday 03 April 2007 14:04, Ryan Seal wrote: > I also like the microchip PIC line. CCS offers a nice > compiler in Linux for about 80 bucks (with a student > discount) - but, if you are new to all of this, I would > second the motion for the Atmel AVR series as well; since > they offer the gcc avr compiler for Linux. I purchased the > STK500 kit from digi-key some time ago and am still waiting > on a free moment to evaluate it. There is also a Free (GPL) development kit for a PIC, including a simulator. The creator of it (Scott) occasionally posts to this list. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: simulation advice
On Tuesday 03 April 2007 11:17, Patrick Doyle wrote:
> ok, attached (perhaps) is a tarball of my work-in-progress
> directory, including my gschem schematic, my models
> directory, my Makefile that runs gnetlist (and ngspice). I
> just checked before I packaged it up, and my version of
> Gnucap still doesn't like the netlist when I invoke it as:
>
> $ gnucap mictest.ckt
The reason it works with ng-spice and not gnucap is that it was
written for ng-spice not gnucap.
Gnucap doesn't have levels for the BJT unless you use plugins.
You uncovered a bug that came about with the plugins -- in how
it handles that. The old version would just ignore the level
keyword. The current one got an error because it only found
a "PNP" with no level, as opposed to a PNP level 1. The bug is
that the arrow points to the wrong place. Spice 3f5 would not
accept the level either. It still gets a warning on the "NK"
parameter, and ignores it. That is the same in gnucap or
ngspice, or in gnucap with spice3f5 of ngspice models.
Since you mentioned it, and I didn't think of it before, it is
easy to change it, so I did ..
Here's the patch ..
in the file "d_bjt.model"
Find:
public_keys {
NPN polarity=pN;
PNP polarity=pP;
}
Change it to:
public_keys {
NPN polarity=pN;
PNP polarity=pP;
NPN1 polarity=pN;
PNP1 polarity=pP;
}
-- and recompile.
There is a way to make it as a plugin, so you don't need to
recompile, but I will skip it for now.
This model would have problems with the old version because of
the extra blank lines embedded between extended lines. There
is no spec on the spice format, so I made it to what seemed
correct, it worked for everything I did. Later, I found out
that spice allows blank lines and comments inside extended
lines. That is fixed in the snapshot. The old one is an
example of where, although it isn't really a bug, the
compatibility isn't perfect. It underscores a big reason why
moving away from the spice format is long overdue.
Then you have the ".include Simulation.cmd" in the middle of the
circuit description. Inside it, you have the print after the
tran command. You need to put that before, because in gnucap
that means "attach probes here". So you get a transient run
with no instrumentation hooked up. That (the commands) are
another place where the compatibility is not perfect. The way
gnucap does it brings in big advantages with the ability to do
multiple analyses that I don't want to give up. I really need
to write up that class-B amplifier example to show why.
Putting the simulation commands in the middle of the circuit
description gives you a simulation of the part of the circuit
you have up to that point. It works, but gives a different
result than the whole circuit would. This is another
difference between gnucap and spice. The gnucap way allows you
to build a circuit in steps and test after each step. Build
part, test it, build another stage, test it. Or .. build it,
test it, change it, test again, ... You can't do this in
spice.
Usually I prefer not to put commands in with the circuit
description anyway. For real work, either I run it
interactively or make the command script a separate file from
the circuit. I like being able to do it either way.
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Re: gEDA-user: Design Lab Equipment
> I have seen DJ Delorie using the R8C from Renasas, and I see that > they are also using a GCC tool chain. They look like a nice part as > well. The whole R8C/M16C/M32C family is a sweet set, everything from 20 pin $3 to 144 pin chips at $42, with flash ranging from a few Kb to 1Mb. All with a (mostly ) common architecture and heavy peripheral sharing between variants and such. And one compiler/assembler to cover them all. Oh, and they use a gcc toolchain because I'm the one who wrote it ;-) (at least, the gcc part. The assembler was originally done by someone else, although I maintain it now). Easy to program, too. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Design Lab Equipment
If you are familiar with C I'd suggest a microcontroller that is capable of being programmed in C, assembly can be tighter and cleaner, but that takes practice. I am fond of the Atmel AVR series, and the GCC tool chain that goes along with it, it is also convient for OS X and Linux users, as the basic stamps native environment is windows. yes they have compilers and such for linux, but the AVRs have better OS X support. With the GCC tool chain you have the ability to use both assembly and C I also like the microchip PIC line. CCS offers a nice compiler in Linux for about 80 bucks (with a student discount) - but, if you are new to all of this, I would second the motion for the Atmel AVR series as well; since they offer the gcc avr compiler for Linux. I purchased the STK500 kit from digi-key some time ago and am still waiting on a free moment to evaluate it. Ryan ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Design Lab Equipment
To add my 0.02 CDN... I have a couple of NXP LPC2103 based boards that I have been using. They cost me $24.95 USD from www.futurlec.com. These are ARM based and I use GCC (with the patches from www.gnuarm.com, which you don't really need unless you want to mix ARM and Thumb code) to program them. They also have a built in ROM bootloader so you don't have to mess with JTAG to program them. NXP has plenty of example code to get you started, and I wrote a simple command line downloader for it that runs under FreeBSD, but should compile on Linux without any changes. . -- Mike Jarabek FPGA/ASIC Designer, DSP Firmware Designer http://www.sentex.ca/~mjarabek -- -Original Message- From: Steven Michalske <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 10:44:09 To:gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Design Lab Equipment I second this motion! basic stamps have nice small simple boards, the drawback i have with them is I didn't want to learn another variant of basic. If you are familiar with C I'd suggest a microcontroller that is capable of being programmed in C, assembly can be tighter and cleaner, but that takes practice. I am fond of the Atmel AVR series, and the GCC tool chain that goes along with it, it is also convient for OS X and Linux users, as the basic stamps native environment is windows. yes they have compilers and such for linux, but the AVRs have better OS X support. With the GCC tool chain you have the ability to use both assembly and C I have seen DJ Delorie using the R8C from Renasas, and I see that they are also using a GCC tool chain. They look like a nice part as well. Happy researching Steve On Apr 3, 2007, at 7:49 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Apr 3, 2007, at 9:29 AM, Felipe Balbi wrote: >> Hmm... Nice... >> >> Actually, I'm Engineering studying... so.. that's my 4-year >> studying... >> But, I want to get it started now... Wanna understand how to design >> the correct interfaces... where to use capacitors, resistors, >> inductors, etc... How to interface a PIC or 8051 with an LCD... >> How to >> design a circuit to flash their memory... stuff like that... >> >> >> I think there should be some techniques to make things a little >> easier... :-p > > I will warn you, please listen...DO NOT expect to pick this up > overnight, or even in a few weeks. There is a lot going on in > those little components, and a lot of stuff to be aware of. I > admire your desire to "dive in" and start doing things, but it's > very important to be aware of one's own capabilities and select > your projects accordingly. START SMALL...get a Basic Stamp and > blink an LED, maybe make a low-frequency sine wave with a D/A > converter, *then* move to a PIC or 8051 with an LCD. > > Seriously...you will be much less frustrated, and you'll destroy > fewer components, if you start small. Move quickly, but start small. > > As others have suggested, Horowitz & Hill's "The Art of > Electronics" is absolutely fantastic. You can also check out > http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/, it is very well-done and will get > you off to a good start. Don't be tempted to skip over things like > Ohm's Law, etc., because you'll use it every day and it's important > to understand the underlying concepts. > >-Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > > > > ___ > geda-user mailing list > geda-user@moria.seul.org > http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Design Lab Equipment
I second this motion! basic stamps have nice small simple boards, the drawback i have with them is I didn't want to learn another variant of basic. If you are familiar with C I'd suggest a microcontroller that is capable of being programmed in C, assembly can be tighter and cleaner, but that takes practice. I am fond of the Atmel AVR series, and the GCC tool chain that goes along with it, it is also convient for OS X and Linux users, as the basic stamps native environment is windows. yes they have compilers and such for linux, but the AVRs have better OS X support. With the GCC tool chain you have the ability to use both assembly and C I have seen DJ Delorie using the R8C from Renasas, and I see that they are also using a GCC tool chain. They look like a nice part as well. Happy researching Steve On Apr 3, 2007, at 7:49 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: On Apr 3, 2007, at 9:29 AM, Felipe Balbi wrote: Hmm... Nice... Actually, I'm Engineering studying... so.. that's my 4-year studying... But, I want to get it started now... Wanna understand how to design the correct interfaces... where to use capacitors, resistors, inductors, etc... How to interface a PIC or 8051 with an LCD... How to design a circuit to flash their memory... stuff like that... I think there should be some techniques to make things a little easier... :-p I will warn you, please listen...DO NOT expect to pick this up overnight, or even in a few weeks. There is a lot going on in those little components, and a lot of stuff to be aware of. I admire your desire to "dive in" and start doing things, but it's very important to be aware of one's own capabilities and select your projects accordingly. START SMALL...get a Basic Stamp and blink an LED, maybe make a low-frequency sine wave with a D/A converter, *then* move to a PIC or 8051 with an LCD. Seriously...you will be much less frustrated, and you'll destroy fewer components, if you start small. Move quickly, but start small. As others have suggested, Horowitz & Hill's "The Art of Electronics" is absolutely fantastic. You can also check out http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/, it is very well-done and will get you off to a good start. Don't be tempted to skip over things like Ohm's Law, etc., because you'll use it every day and it's important to understand the underlying concepts. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Multiple open pages in gschem
I like the tabs. They would be just as useful if in a toolbar section. They will cause less clutter there than as a separate PageManager window... I thought the point was to reduce the number of windows you have open. I suppose you could make it user selectable but that would add complexity. Just making tabs work should be complex enough for now. Granted I say this as a person who has yet to write any code for this project. -- http://www.coe.neu.edu/~efoss/ http://evanfoss.googlepages.com/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Design Lab Equipment
Dave McGuire wrote: > > I will warn you, please listen...DO NOT expect to pick this up > overnight, or even in a few weeks. There is a lot going on in those > little components, and a lot of stuff to be aware of. I admire your > desire to "dive in" and start doing things, but it's very important to > be aware of one's own capabilities and select your projects > accordingly. START SMALL...get a Basic Stamp and blink an LED, maybe > make a low-frequency sine wave with a D/A converter, *then* move to a > PIC or 8051 with an LCD. Basic Stamps are fun, and well documented, here is the "Stamps In Class" homepage. http://www.parallax.com/html_pages/edu/index.asp Beware, the Basic Stamp email list is a HIGH volume list. -- Darryl Gibson N2DIY RLU X 182668/379552 “Arms are the only true badges of liberty. The possession of arms is the distinction of a free man from a slave.” -- Andrew Fletcher, A Discourse of Government with relation to Militias (1698) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Design Lab Equipment
> Does he still use ABEL? > The last edition I saw did, but also had some VHDL. Dunno, I only have the 2nd edition (1994 or so IIRC). MS ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Design Lab Equipment
On Tuesday 03 April 2007 12:23, Michael Sokolov wrote: > _Digital Design: Principles and Practices_ by John Wakerly is > my favourite. Does he still use ABEL? The last edition I saw did, but also had some VHDL. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Design Lab Equipment
_Digital Design: Principles and Practices_ by John Wakerly is my favourite. MS ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Multiple open pages in gschem
On Tue, 2007-04-03 at 09:38 -0500, John Griessen wrote: > DJ Delorie wrote: > Ales Hvezda wrote: > > [snip] are the tabs really that useful since they do sorta clutter things > > up. > > > > Put the tabs in the toolbar? > > > I like the tabs. They would be just as useful if in a toolbar section. > They will cause less clutter there than as a separate > PageManager window... We'd have to implement the tab-window widget ourselves in that case. The Gtk widget for tabs assumes the shape of a rectangle, and "contains" the "pages" it switches between. No reason it can't be done... we could probably borrow heavily from the GTK sourcecode to do it. What gschem could benefit from - shame I never thought of this in time for the SoC suggestions, is a customisable toolbar system, rather than the current hard-coded tool list. Peter ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: VMWare image of Ubuntu distribution of Linux with gEDA installed.
I ran md5 on the image and I get: MD5 (ubuntu-custom-live_3.iso) = 220343841c25e2d1f4c5ab698ae05812 The file is a .iso file that can be mounted as a CD image and booted from in VMWare. You can also burn it to a CD and boot from the CD without using VMWare at all. When it boots, you'll see what looks like the normal Ubuntu 6.10 live CD. If you go to the Applications->Education menu pick, you'll see gEDA apps. You can also invoke them from the shell. John, thanks again for putting this up on your site. Steve John Griessen wrote: Steve Morss's VMWare image with gEDA is available on my server until people use up too much bandwidth. That will happen after 50 downloads See http://foseda.com/ the link gEDA-on-Linux-on-VMWare John Griessen PS I have not tested it yet. Do you have a checksum for it Steve? ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Multiple open pages in gschem
On Apr 3, 2007, at 11:36 AM, evan foss wrote: I don't think that is cluttered at all. I typically end up with multiple gschem windows open any way, this is less cluttered. I just have one question how do you open and close the tabs. Is it like firefox (right click). Hmm, my Firefox has a "close tab" button on the right of each tab. That seems to be very effective. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
gEDA-user: VMWare image of Ubuntu distribution of Linux with gEDA installed.
Steve Morss's VMWare image with gEDA is available on my server until people use up too much bandwidth. That will happen after 50 downloads See http://foseda.com/ the link gEDA-on-Linux-on-VMWare John Griessen PS I have not tested it yet. Do you have a checksum for it Steve? ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Multiple open pages in gschem
I don't think that is cluttered at all. I typically end up with multiple gschem windows open any way, this is less cluttered. I just have one question how do you open and close the tabs. Is it like firefox (right click). -- http://www.coe.neu.edu/~efoss/ http://evanfoss.googlepages.com/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: simulation advice
> 3) I fetched the spice model for an MMBT3640 from > Fairchild, and saw that my simple circuit loaded up in > ngspice, but when I attempt to load it in Gnucap, I get: > > * gnetlist -g spice-sdb -s -o mictest.ckt mictest.sch > .MODEL MMBT3640 PNP LEVEL = 1 IS= 1.41E-15 ISE > ^ ? no match > > (Note that the "^ ? no match" points to the word PNP in the > line above. That's wierd. It should work. PNP should find the native BJT model. That kind of message could mean you need to "attach" a model, but it doesn't here. It should work. Send it to me and I will look at it. ok, attached (perhaps) is a tarball of my work-in-progress directory, including my gschem schematic, my models directory, my Makefile that runs gnetlist (and ngspice). I just checked before I packaged it up, and my version of Gnucap still doesn't like the netlist when I invoke it as: $ gnucap mictest.ckt --wpd mictest.tgz Description: GNU Zip compressed data ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: TwoStageAmp example
On 4/3/07, al davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Tuesday 03 April 2007 09:20, Stuart Brorson wrote: > >> Here's what crashes for me: > >> > >> $ ~/local/bin/gnucap spice.netlist.wpd > >> gnucap> plot ac v(Vout) > >> gnucap> ac dec 1Hz 1MegHz > >> > >> #Freq > >> Segmentation fault > > > > 1. You need to do "op" before "ac". > > I was thinking about this during my morning commute. It's > fine that Gnucap wants an op performed before doing anything > else. However, it shouldn't segfault if the user forgets or > doesn't know this. It doesn't segfault for me. Does it segfault with the Simulation.cmd from Stuart's example? If not, I'll try to figure out why it does for me. If so, I'll still probably try to figure out what's going on, but you will probably have fixed that problem, added 13 new features, and taken a vacation in the mean time :-) He is using a development snapshot, the equivalent of a CVS checkout. Should I (especially as a simulation newbie) not be using the development snapshot? I grabbed that one when I discovered that the 0.34 version installed by yum wouldn't load my spice netlist. Looking around now, I see that I should have followed the "Old versions" link on the webpage instead of the "Development releases" link, and I could be playing with 0.35 instead. --wpd ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: TwoStageAmp example
On Tuesday 03 April 2007 10:49, al davis wrote: > Probably, it should always print a note: "using operating > point xxx". I will go a step further .. It should print a comment that tells what the settings were, and it should go both to the file and screen. # ac 20 20k octave 5 # operating point: tran 0 .002 10u skip 10 temperature=30 # at time=.002 # (the usual headings) 20. . Then if you don't do anything first it might be: # ac 20 20k octave 5 # operating point: none - power off # (the usual headings) 20. .. I have been thinking of doing this for a long time, but it never came to the top in priority. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: TwoStageAmp example
On Tuesday 03 April 2007 09:20, Stuart Brorson wrote: > >> Here's what crashes for me: > >> > >> $ ~/local/bin/gnucap spice.netlist.wpd > >> gnucap> plot ac v(Vout) > >> gnucap> ac dec 1Hz 1MegHz > >> > >> #Freq > >> Segmentation fault > > > > 1. You need to do "op" before "ac". > > I was thinking about this during my morning commute. It's > fine that Gnucap wants an op performed before doing anything > else. However, it shouldn't segfault if the user forgets or > doesn't know this. It doesn't segfault for me. He is using a development snapshot, the equivalent of a CVS checkout. > Rather, Gnucap should do a check before > running an analysis to verify that the operating point has > already been computed and is known. If it's unknown, then > Gnucap should print out a warning like "No operating point -- > you probably need to run op". That would be an improvement, but the power off test is a valid test, and you don't need to do it for a linear circuit. It probably should print a warning whenever "ac" is done after anything other that "op", because only after an "op" will it give the same answers as Spice. If you do "ac" after "tran" it will use the last step of the "tran" as the operating point. This is extremely valuable if you are doing real analog work. I really need to write up that Class-B amplifier example to show it. Probably, it should always print a note: "using operating point xxx". > > 2. The AC line is incorrect. The "Hz" is ignored, so you > > asked for 1 step per decade, with a start frequency of 1 > > meg, no stop frequency. It assumes the stop frequency is > > also 1 meg, so you get a single point. > > Perhaps this is what caused the segfault? Again, a little > args checking prior to running an analysis would help clean > this stuff up. There is plenty of args checking. It worked correctly for me. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Design Lab Equipment
On Apr 3, 2007, at 9:29 AM, Felipe Balbi wrote: Hmm... Nice... Actually, I'm Engineering studying... so.. that's my 4-year studying... But, I want to get it started now... Wanna understand how to design the correct interfaces... where to use capacitors, resistors, inductors, etc... How to interface a PIC or 8051 with an LCD... How to design a circuit to flash their memory... stuff like that... I think there should be some techniques to make things a little easier... :-p I will warn you, please listen...DO NOT expect to pick this up overnight, or even in a few weeks. There is a lot going on in those little components, and a lot of stuff to be aware of. I admire your desire to "dive in" and start doing things, but it's very important to be aware of one's own capabilities and select your projects accordingly. START SMALL...get a Basic Stamp and blink an LED, maybe make a low-frequency sine wave with a D/A converter, *then* move to a PIC or 8051 with an LCD. Seriously...you will be much less frustrated, and you'll destroy fewer components, if you start small. Move quickly, but start small. As others have suggested, Horowitz & Hill's "The Art of Electronics" is absolutely fantastic. You can also check out http:// www.allaboutcircuits.com/, it is very well-done and will get you off to a good start. Don't be tempted to skip over things like Ohm's Law, etc., because you'll use it every day and it's important to understand the underlying concepts. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
gEDA-user: popular licenses (free hardware)
al davis wrote: Sometimes following legal documents to the letter has undesired harmful consequences. This one points out the importance of using a popular license, rather than making up your own. What's the popular one for hardware? John G ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: simulation advice
On Tuesday 03 April 2007 09:51, Patrick Doyle wrote: > > With gnucap you can use "fault", "modify", "param" to > 1) How would I model a switch? The switch device? Type "S". (Same as Spice) > 2) Did I forget a switch when I built Gnucap that would > enable an X windows plot, or does Gnucap only support ASCII > plots? Gnucap only directly supports ASCII plots. If you want a nice plot, use "gwave". I plan to make it hook up automatically, but for now you need to do: print ac ... ac 20 20k oct 10 >some_file !gwave some_file (notice ... the "print" command, not "plot") You should be able to do: ac 20 20k oct 10 | gwave but gwave doesn't work in a pipe. > 3) I fetched the spice model for an MMBT3640 from > Fairchild, and saw that my simple circuit loaded up in > ngspice, but when I attempt to load it in Gnucap, I get: > > * gnetlist -g spice-sdb -s -o mictest.ckt mictest.sch > .MODEL MMBT3640 PNP LEVEL = 1 IS= 1.41E-15 ISE > ^ ? no match > > (Note that the "^ ? no match" points to the word PNP in the > line above. That's wierd. It should work. PNP should find the native BJT model. > Does this mean I need to "attach" to an ngspice model > somehow? If so, how? That kind of message could mean you need to "attach" a model, but it doesn't here. It should work. Send it to me and I will look at it. How to attach a model is with the attach command. "attach my_model.so" This is in the manual. There is a tutorial supplied in the tarball, but it needs updating. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Multiple open pages in gschem
DJ Delorie wrote: Ales Hvezda wrote: [snip] are the tabs really that useful since they do sorta clutter things up. Put the tabs in the toolbar? I like the tabs. They would be just as useful if in a toolbar section. They will cause less clutter there than as a separate PageManager window... John Griessen ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Design Lab Equipment
On Apr 3, 2007, at 6:46 AM, Dan McMahill wrote: Peter Clifton wrote: On Sat, 2007-03-31 at 17:53 -0400, al davis wrote: How about .,,.. transistor curve tracer. How much do they cost? Why doesn't every college EE department have one on every bench? I think of the old 4th-year engineering project my supervisor has in his office - a valve characterising circuit. Now that's far more retro ;) There are still a few out there who understand valves - and build valve-amps etc. (sadly I'm not one of them, but I have a few collected... I own 3x 15kW plate dissipation triodes - from old RF induction heating kit ;) If you want to know enough to design audio amps with tubes, read the short appendix in Electronic Principles by Gray and Searle. Of course if you're really serious you can pick up Langford-Smith, "The Radiotron Designer's Handbook", Fourth Edition, either the original or the recent reprint. Assuming you know how to design with transistors, it is not that hard. Especially MOS. I'm old enough that it works the other way: when I design analog MOS it brings up memories of my teenage years, playing with tubes. All transconductance and capacitance. There are a few issues here and there though that seem to be poorly documented though. Sometime I'll post one of my favorites. -Dan ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: simulation advice
With gnucap you can use "fault", "modify", "param" to interactively change component values. You can also sweep them with the "DC" command. Spice can sweep sources. Gnucap can sweep any single value. How about .. "R1 (2 4) foo" param foo=10k op param foo=47l That sounds _exactly_ like what I was looking for. Having played a little more with Gnucap, I have a few more beginner's questions... 1) How would I model a switch? 2) Did I forget a switch when I built Gnucap that would enable an X windows plot, or does Gnucap only support ASCII plots? 3) I fetched the spice model for an MMBT3640 from Fairchild, and saw that my simple circuit loaded up in ngspice, but when I attempt to load it in Gnucap, I get: * gnetlist -g spice-sdb -s -o mictest.ckt mictest.sch .MODEL MMBT3640 PNP LEVEL = 1 IS= 1.41E-15 ISE ^ ? no match (Note that the "^ ? no match" points to the word PNP in the line above. Does this mean I need to "attach" to an ngspice model somehow? If so, how? Once again, thank you for your patience and your help. --wpd ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Design Lab Equipment
On 4/3/07, Felipe Balbi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hmm... I think my question is could regard this thread... Where can I learn how to design Electronic Circuits?? Is there a good "quick start guide" book ? I want to design some simple 8051 applications for my studying kick-off... After that I would try to design better (more complicated) circuits... If you guys could help me with that... it would be really great... I would vote for The Art of Electronics as well. For a cookbook style try "The CMOS Cookbook" by Don Lancaster. A good free resource is "Lessons in Electric Circuits" at http://www.ibiblio.org/obp/electricCircuits/ (* jcl *) -- http://www.luciani.org ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Design Lab Equipment
Hmm... Nice... Actually, I'm Engineering studying... so.. that's my 4-year studying... But, I want to get it started now... Wanna understand how to design the correct interfaces... where to use capacitors, resistors, inductors, etc... How to interface a PIC or 8051 with an LCD... How to design a circuit to flash their memory... stuff like that... I think there should be some techniques to make things a little easier... :-p Thanks for your notes... On 4/3/07, John Doty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Apr 3, 2007, at 7:03 AM, Felipe Balbi wrote: > Hmm... > I think my question is could regard this thread... > > Where can I learn how to design Electronic Circuits?? Is there a good > "quick start guide" book ? Horowitz and Hill, "The Art of Electronics". Best ever. > > I want to design some simple 8051 applications for my studying > kick-off... After that I would try to design better (more complicated) > circuits... > > If you guys could help me with that... it would be really great... > > > Thanks in advance > > > > > > On 4/3/07, Dan McMahill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Peter Clifton wrote: >> > On Sat, 2007-03-31 at 17:53 -0400, al davis wrote: >> > >> >>How about .,,.. transistor curve tracer. How much do they >> >>cost? Why doesn't every college EE department have one on >> >>every bench? >> > >> > >> > I think of the old 4th-year engineering project my supervisor >> has in his >> > office - a valve characterising circuit. Now that's far more >> retro ;) >> > >> > There are still a few out there who understand valves - and build >> > valve-amps etc. (sadly I'm not one of them, but I have a few >> > collected... I own 3x 15kW plate dissipation triodes - from old RF >> > induction heating kit ;) >> >> If you want to know enough to design audio amps with tubes, read the >> short appendix in Electronic Principles by Gray and Searle. Assuming >> you know how to design with transistors, it is not that hard. >> There are >> a few issues here and there though that seem to be poorly documented >> though. Sometime I'll post one of my favorites. >> >> -Dan >> >> >> ___ >> geda-user mailing list >> geda-user@moria.seul.org >> http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user >> > > > -- > Best Regards, > > Felipe Balbi > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > ___ > geda-user mailing list > geda-user@moria.seul.org > http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user -- Best Regards, Felipe Balbi [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Design Lab Equipment
On Apr 3, 2007, at 7:03 AM, Felipe Balbi wrote: Hmm... I think my question is could regard this thread... Where can I learn how to design Electronic Circuits?? Is there a good "quick start guide" book ? Horowitz and Hill, "The Art of Electronics". Best ever. I want to design some simple 8051 applications for my studying kick-off... After that I would try to design better (more complicated) circuits... If you guys could help me with that... it would be really great... Thanks in advance On 4/3/07, Dan McMahill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Peter Clifton wrote: > On Sat, 2007-03-31 at 17:53 -0400, al davis wrote: > >>How about .,,.. transistor curve tracer. How much do they >>cost? Why doesn't every college EE department have one on >>every bench? > > > I think of the old 4th-year engineering project my supervisor has in his > office - a valve characterising circuit. Now that's far more retro ;) > > There are still a few out there who understand valves - and build > valve-amps etc. (sadly I'm not one of them, but I have a few > collected... I own 3x 15kW plate dissipation triodes - from old RF > induction heating kit ;) If you want to know enough to design audio amps with tubes, read the short appendix in Electronic Principles by Gray and Searle. Assuming you know how to design with transistors, it is not that hard. There are a few issues here and there though that seem to be poorly documented though. Sometime I'll post one of my favorites. -Dan ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user -- Best Regards, Felipe Balbi [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
RE: gEDA-user: Design Lab Equipment
Most of us here have spent at least 4 years studying that! Any basic EE circuits textbook will get you started, but it's not nearly as easy as getting started with programming. > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Felipe Balbi > Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 9:04 AM > To: gEDA user mailing list > Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Design Lab Equipment > > Hmm... > I think my question is could regard this thread... > > Where can I learn how to design Electronic Circuits?? Is > there a good "quick start guide" book ? > > I want to design some simple 8051 applications for my > studying kick-off... After that I would try to design better > (more complicated) circuits... > > If you guys could help me with that... it would be really great... > > > Thanks in advance > > > > > > On 4/3/07, Dan McMahill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Peter Clifton wrote: > > > On Sat, 2007-03-31 at 17:53 -0400, al davis wrote: > > > > > >>How about .,,.. transistor curve tracer. How much do > they cost? > > >>Why doesn't every college EE department have one on every bench? > > > > > > > > > I think of the old 4th-year engineering project my > supervisor has in > > > his office - a valve characterising circuit. Now that's far more > > > retro ;) > > > > > > There are still a few out there who understand valves - and build > > > valve-amps etc. (sadly I'm not one of them, but I have a few > > > collected... I own 3x 15kW plate dissipation triodes - > from old RF > > > induction heating kit ;) > > > > If you want to know enough to design audio amps with tubes, > read the > > short appendix in Electronic Principles by Gray and Searle. > Assuming > > you know how to design with transistors, it is not that > hard. There > > are a few issues here and there though that seem to be poorly > > documented though. Sometime I'll post one of my favorites. > > > > -Dan > > > > > > ___ > > geda-user mailing list > > geda-user@moria.seul.org > > http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user > > > > > -- > Best Regards, > > Felipe Balbi > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > ___ > geda-user mailing list > geda-user@moria.seul.org > http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user > ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: TwoStageAmp example
Here's what crashes for me: $ ~/local/bin/gnucap spice.netlist.wpd gnucap> plot ac v(Vout) gnucap> ac dec 1Hz 1MegHz #Freq Segmentation fault 1. You need to do "op" before "ac". I was thinking about this during my morning commute. It's fine that Gnucap wants an op performed before doing anything else. However, it shouldn't segfault if the user forgets or doesn't know this. Rather, Gnucap should do a check before running an analysis to verify that the operating point has already been computed and is known. If it's unknown, then Gnucap should print out a warning like "No operating point -- you probably need to run op". 2. The AC line is incorrect. The "Hz" is ignored, so you asked for 1 step per decade, with a start frequency of 1 meg, no stop frequency. It assumes the stop frequency is also 1 meg, so you get a single point. Perhaps this is what caused the segfault? Again, a little args checking prior to running an analysis would help clean this stuff up. Maybe I'll take this up as a project during the upcoming code sprint. Stuart ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: TwoStageAmp example
> Also, FWIW, the 3-29 snapshot crashes when I try to analyze > the netlist from Stuarts TwoStageAmp example... at least it > does when I try to run the version I built today. I have, > perhaps, attached the netlist for your review. If it works > fine for you, then I'll try rebuilding and paying more > attention to what's going on. Any crash is a bug, but it didn't crash for me. Your commands are incorrect. Mine acted as expected for the input you gave. You did not supply "Simulation.cmd". I made an empty one. Oops -- sorry 'bout that chief. It might be attached here (renamed as Simulation.cmdx since gmail won't let me attach it named as "Simulation.cmd"). Perhaps that is what caused the segmentation fault -- or perhaps it is something in my build environment (a standard FC6 box, Gnucap configured only with a --prefix option). > > Here's what crashes for me: > > $ ~/local/bin/gnucap spice.netlist.wpd > gnucap> plot ac v(Vout) > gnucap> ac dec 1Hz 1MegHz > > #Freq > Segmentation fault 1. You need to do "op" before "ac". This is a difference between gnucap and spice. If you don't your AC results will be an accurate representation of what the circuit does with the power off. AC uses the last operating point from op, dc, or tran. Spice always forces an op, and uses it to set up for AC. The gnucap way is more flexible. It adds capabilities that are important to an analog designer. Yeah, I noticed that when I reread the documentation. So I tried the "op" and got the same segmentation fault. If it still doesn't crash for you, then I'll dig into it on my end. Thanks again for the help. --wpd Simulation.cmdx Description: Binary data ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Design Lab Equipment
Hmm... I think my question is could regard this thread... Where can I learn how to design Electronic Circuits?? Is there a good "quick start guide" book ? I want to design some simple 8051 applications for my studying kick-off... After that I would try to design better (more complicated) circuits... If you guys could help me with that... it would be really great... Thanks in advance On 4/3/07, Dan McMahill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Peter Clifton wrote: > On Sat, 2007-03-31 at 17:53 -0400, al davis wrote: > >>How about .,,.. transistor curve tracer. How much do they >>cost? Why doesn't every college EE department have one on >>every bench? > > > I think of the old 4th-year engineering project my supervisor has in his > office - a valve characterising circuit. Now that's far more retro ;) > > There are still a few out there who understand valves - and build > valve-amps etc. (sadly I'm not one of them, but I have a few > collected... I own 3x 15kW plate dissipation triodes - from old RF > induction heating kit ;) If you want to know enough to design audio amps with tubes, read the short appendix in Electronic Principles by Gray and Searle. Assuming you know how to design with transistors, it is not that hard. There are a few issues here and there though that seem to be poorly documented though. Sometime I'll post one of my favorites. -Dan ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user -- Best Regards, Felipe Balbi [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Looking for a project
al davis wrote: FM stereo generator. The broadcast ones are very expensive. You can buy one made for a lab cheap. It sort of works. A real broadcast one is simple but much more expensive. If anyone feels like building one of these, I can give some extra guidance on analog implementations and how to test some of the parameters using relatively basic instrumentation. Personally I think this is a good project for dsp though. -Dan ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Design Lab Equipment
Peter Clifton wrote: On Sat, 2007-03-31 at 17:53 -0400, al davis wrote: How about .,,.. transistor curve tracer. How much do they cost? Why doesn't every college EE department have one on every bench? I think of the old 4th-year engineering project my supervisor has in his office - a valve characterising circuit. Now that's far more retro ;) There are still a few out there who understand valves - and build valve-amps etc. (sadly I'm not one of them, but I have a few collected... I own 3x 15kW plate dissipation triodes - from old RF induction heating kit ;) If you want to know enough to design audio amps with tubes, read the short appendix in Electronic Principles by Gray and Searle. Assuming you know how to design with transistors, it is not that hard. There are a few issues here and there though that seem to be poorly documented though. Sometime I'll post one of my favorites. -Dan ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Multiple open pages in gschem
On Mon, 2007-04-02 at 23:41 -0400, Ales Hvezda wrote: > [snip] > >> I've worked out all the details yet (read: hardly fully functional), > >> but the implementation looks fairly straightforward. The question is, > >> are the tabs really that useful since they do sorta clutter things up. > > > > Hey, I have to say, that's pretty darned cool. I'd say it'd be > >very useful. > > > > Don't get too excited yet, there's still a ton of implementation > work to do to get this out there. And of course, how do the tabs fit > into the hierarchy mechanism. They don't really - they just show open files. (Which is why I partially removed the hierarchy mechanism for my testing). Peter C. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Multiple open pages in gschem
On Mon, 2007-04-02 at 23:26 -0400, Ales Hvezda wrote: > > > I've worked out all the details yet (read: hardly fully functional), > but the implementation looks fairly straightforward. The question is, > are the tabs really that useful since they do sorta clutter things up. Hah - I tried that over the vacation too. I believe you're mis-using the GtkNotebook. It is supposed to have the switched page inside it - it doesn't look quite right blank contents, as it draws a frame to show its "contents". (It doesn't look like the page is what tabs are selecting). To do it the "Gtk" way, it needs a Drawing-area per tab, which isn't what the gschem data-structures are happy with. By current code, it would probably need a "TOPLEVEL" per tab. I did almost get it working before, but it was a mess. The tabs themselves take up space. Perhaps the navigation on the toolbar makes the existence of multiple pages obvious in a more space efficient way. Still - I think we should aim for future data-structures to support multiple active Drawing-areas per TOPLEVEL. -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Re: Icarus Verilog PLI example: PLI_INT32 vs static int
Stephen Williams wrote: > > "int" is PLI_INT32 in your case. The "static" part is something > else altogether and perhaps more germain to your problem. You > don't say what's crashing, Stu's example or mine, etc., so we > have very little to go on. Sorry for being so vague. I was more curious about the need for the static. I am trying to run the pow() example from the Stu book. Originally I typed it off and added my own test bench. That crashed right away with a segmentation fault. Next I took the example from the accompanied CD. I modified the vpi_user.c to not needing the other application that comes along with that chapter 2 example and compiled it with: iverilog-vpi pow_vpi.c vpi_user.c iverilog -opow_test.vvp pow_test.v vvp -M. mpow_vpi pow_test.vvp The output I am getting is: $pow PLI application is being used. Segmentation fault What is odd, even after changing the definition and the implementation of the calltf, sizetf, compiletf functions I am getting warnings about incompatible pointer types. For example the calltf function I changed from: PLI_INT32 PLIbook_PowCalltf(PLI_BYTE8 *user_data); to: static int PLIbook_PowCalltf(PLI_BYTE8 *user_data); When compiling I am still getting: > iverilog-vpi pow_vpi.c vpi_user.c Compiling pow_vpi.c... pow_vpi.c: In function ‘PLIbook_pow_register’: pow_vpi.c:46: warning: assignment from incompatible pointer type pow_vpi.c:47: warning: assignment from incompatible pointer type pow_vpi.c:48: warning: assignment from incompatible pointer type Compiling vpi_user.c... Making pow_vpi.vpi from pow_vpi.o vpi_user.o... Line 46, 47, and 48 are: tf_data.calltf = PLIbook_PowCalltf; tf_data.compiletf = PLIbook_PowCompiletf; tf_data.sizetf = PLIbook_PowSizetf; I even removed the .o and the .vpi file to make sure it compiles again, but still get the warning. The example can be downloaded from this page: http://sutherland-hdl.com/pli_book_files/pli_handbook_examples_unix.tar.gz Any idea what I am doing wrong? Thanks for the help. Cheers, Guenter ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Multiple open pages in gschem
I really like the tabs as well. Maybe it's possible to change the font size to shrink them a little if people think they're too big? Regards, Kurt [snip] > There is yet another page-navigation metaphor available to us.. the > tabbed notebook, but to do this properly (as I discovered over the > summer), requires major data-structure changes. > H... Here's something I hacked up a few nights ago: http://geda.seul.org/misc/gschem-tabs.png I've worked out all the details yet (read: hardly fully functional), but the implementation looks fairly straightforward. The question is, are the tabs really that useful since they do sorta clutter things up. -Ales ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Several PCB versions on 1 system
Found the issue ! library-newlib = ./footprints:~/data/gaf/footprints/sdf The ./footprints: seems to be crucial ! grtz Simon ___ All New Yahoo! Mail – Tired of unwanted email come-ons? Let our SpamGuard protect you. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
