Re: gEDA-user: suppress command line window in Win32 build
[snip] >I've got a patch ready for testing (attached), and if you can confirm it >works, I'll push it to git HEAD once Ales declares the servers are ready >for use again. > git on the new server should be ready for use now (all repositories). Please report any issues, cause I probably messed something up. :( -Ales ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: A little puzzled about the purpose of gschem
John Doty wrote: On Apr 28, 2010, at 9:41 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: Very rare?! I see 741s everywhere. WTF? Different worlds. You make my point. Why is anybody using anything so crummy in the 21st century? Perhaps, like me they have a pile of them. I'm staring at about 25 of them right now. ;) Jim. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: suppress command line window in Win32 build
> I've got a patch ready for testing (attached), and if you can confirm it > works, I'll push it to git HEAD once Ales declares the servers are ready > for use again. Working as expected - thanks for that. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: A little puzzled about the purpose of gschem
On Apr 29, 2010, at 8:34 AM, Gene Heskett wrote: >> What should I replace >> the obsolete OP220 with? > > What was it trying to do? That will have a heavy bearing on the replacement > choice. Mainly not waste too much power ;-) I used these for a variety of low power, low speed, moderately high voltage purposes. For example: Translating CMOS DAC outputs to higher and/or bipolar ranges. Buffering DC test points and temperature sensors. Thermal control loops. One advantage was that R&QA was reasonably happy with this choice, partly because it was available in a brittle ceramic package that was supposedly more reliable than plastic. I'm tentatively going with LT1078 for new designs. We'll see how loudly R&QA complains... John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ j...@noqsi.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Microwave simulation
Hi, I am very interested to find out what you choose to use for this sort of analysis. I have played a bit with qucs and agree that's a good place to start. Please post back your findings! Geoff On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 6:08 AM, al davis <[1]ad...@freeelectron.net> wrote: On Thursday 29 April 2010, [2]ignacio.dieg...@estumail.ucm.es wrote: > how can i perform scattering S-parameter analysis with gEDA? > Can i create a model from a s2p (touchstone) file model? Nothing with gEDA that does it directly and is ready to go. Your best bet is probably "Qucs". It's GUI driven, and focuses on RF. It also does a good job at the beginner level in general. ___ geda-user mailing list [3]geda-u...@moria.seul.org [4]http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user References 1. mailto:ad...@freeelectron.net 2. mailto:ignacio.dieg...@estumail.ucm.es 3. mailto:geda-user@moria.seul.org 4. http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Microwave simulation
On Thursday 29 April 2010, ignacio.dieg...@estumail.ucm.es wrote: > how can i perform scattering S-parameter analysis with gEDA? > Can i create a model from a s2p (touchstone) file model? Nothing with gEDA that does it directly and is ready to go. Your best bet is probably "Qucs". It's GUI driven, and focuses on RF. It also does a good job at the beginner level in general. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Database on symbols, footprints and other (was "Re: gattrib")
Another strange thing with gparts: in 'sql/mysql/create-basic.sql' one finds: cut ... CREATE TABLE Symbol ( SymbolIDINTEGER UNSIGNED NOT NULL AUTO_INCREMENT, SymbolPath VARCHAR(500) NOT NULL, DeviceIDINTEGER UNSIGNED NOT NULL, PRIMARY KEY ( SymbolID ), FOREIGN KEY ( DeviceID ) REFERENCES Device, UNIQUE ( SymbolPath ) ); -- Create a table for symbol details (comments). -- -- Each symbol may have many comments. -- CREATE TABLE SymbolDetail ( SymbolID INTEGER UNSIGNED NOT NULL AUTO_INCREMENT, DetailVARCHAR(500) NOT NULL, FOREIGN KEY ( SymbolID ) REFERENCES Symbol, UNIQUE ( SymbolID, Detail ) ); ... cut - what is the purpose of auto-increment on a foreign key? Auto-increment would probably be the default behavior, but as it will break the foreign key constraint this, same as not assigning anything will prevent creation of that row. Actually it is worse (at least with PostgreSQL): the autoincrement counter falls behind, if the default behavior is not used. It can be assumed, that the SymbolID's from "Symbol" will form a gapless sequence. If for some reason, the SymbolID gets missed during creation of a SymbolDetail, the AUTO_INCREMENT will produce an integer that is probably low, because this is a bug. And this will happily attach the detail to a random symbol, instead of raising an exception. Wrong? Armin ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
gEDA-user: Microwave simulation
Hello, how can i perform scattering S-parameter analysis with gEDA? Can i create a model from a s2p (touchstone) file model? Thanks in advance, Nacho. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Database on symbols, footprints and other (was "Re: gattrib")
Hi,
I read some of the SQL files yesterday and just started an attempt to
build gparts.
The INSTAL file list requirements for building with MySQL and PostgreSQL.
The later are present on my machine and I'm used to that DB.
Then it's stated, that PostgreSQL is not supported yet. What is missing?
I have no trouble fixing the master sql-script to use the PostgreSQL
syntax
> \i foo.sql
instead of MySQL's
> source foo.sql
More trouble seems to be the use of
> CALL AddPart('blah', 'blie', 'blu');
that looks like a stored procedure to me. Tbh, I never used stored
procedures so far.
Is this portable? and if not, what is the advantage to
> INSERT INTO part (he, hi, ho) VALUES ('blah', 'blie', 'blu');
which is portable?
What has to be done, to convice the C code to use PostgreSQL instead of
MySQL?
(I know from Perl, that it is a nobrainer, to switch between PostgreSQL
and Oracle
as long as one doesn't use non-standard constructs)
And what does one need to do with the autoconf/automake combo, so the
compiler
will see something like "-DUSED_DB=PostgreSQL" (didn't use that either)?
Btw., the INSTALL misses instructions on how to run these and the typical
./configure; make; make check; make install; thing.
As I don't know how to create it, I can't run configure --help...
Greetings, Armin
I won't try to compile it now, but the table diagram looks promissing.
Regards, Armin
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Re: gEDA-user: configure script patch
On Thu, 29 Apr 2010 14:19:42 +0300, Justas Poderys wrote: > Hi All, > > I'm using Ubuntu and needed to update geda-gaf, as version in repository > is older than latest released. Since RFTM'ing is not my strongest side, > spent an hour or so wondering why configure would fail, even though I > installed guile-1.8 package. Now it seems trivial that I needed > guile-1.8-dev. I made a small patch to configure script, that check if > user is using debian or its' derivative and hint that user might need > guile dev. Hi Justas, This issue is already clearly explained in gaf's top-level README file: > Troubleshooting dependencies > > > "I've installed the `libfoo' library, but `./configure' isn't > picking it up!" > > Many modern operating system distributions split a library into two > packages: > > 1. a `libfoo' package, which contains the files necessary to >*run* programs which use `libfoo'. > > 2. a `libfoo-dev' or `libfoo-devel' package, which contains the files >necessary to *compile* programs which use `libfoo'. > > If you're having problems, make sure that you have all of the > necessary `dev' or `devel' packages installed. As the person who wrote almost all of the current gaf build system, I'm not keen on adding code to detect a particular distribution of a particular operating system for the sole purpose of printing a message that will only be useful to people who can't or won't read a README file. Nevertheless, thank you for taking the time to create a patch and send it in! :-) Regards, Peter -- Peter Brett Remote Sensing Research Group Surrey Space Centre ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: suppress command line window in Win32 build
Ok, "timecop", you have a serious attitude problem. Just sayin'. -Dave On Apr 29, 2010, at 8:59 AM, timecop wrote: How about fixing it then. On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 9:57 PM, Peter Clifton wrote: On Thu, 2010-04-29 at 21:23 +0900, timecop wrote: thats not the window he's talking about. Yes it is. how about actually running the windows build. I'm the one who built it! -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) Tel: +44 (0)1223 748328 - (Shared lab phone, ask for me) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: A little puzzled about the purpose of gschem
On Apr 29, 2010, at 8:03 AM, John Doty wrote: Very rare?! I see 741s everywhere. WTF? Different worlds. You make my point. Why is anybody using anything so crummy in the 21st century? Most of them that I see are at least ten years old. That said, they're cheap, readily available everywhere (even Radio Shack!), and SPICE models are easy to find. Not every company has aerospace budgets. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: suppress command line window in Win32 build
On Apr 29, 2010, at 8:05 AM, timecop wrote: im guessing something related to the "geda is a collection of a bunch of random command line scripts" and... anyway, i saw it there last time i bothered trying pcb on windows and i was like lol professional. Those last two words that close together look rather suspect. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: DJGPP, was Re: A little puzzled about the purpose of gschem
> I'm shown the contents of the .zip file, rather than starting a > transfer of the .zip file with a Left Click. Right, the "dl" directory is for downloading files from *within* the zips. Use the zip picker to find a local HTTP mirror and user-specific installation instructions: http://www.delorie.com/djgpp/zip-picker.html ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: DJGPP, was Re: A little puzzled about the purpose of gschem
> gcc 4.4.2 recent enough? Clicking on the link below in Chrome or IE6 is failing my view of Action Of Lease Surprise: http://www.delorie.com/djgpp/dl/ofc/current/v2gnu/gcc442b.zip I'm shown the contents of the .zip file, rather than starting a transfer of the .zip file with a Left Click. Right click in Chrome gets me 'download.htm' and in IE6 gets me 'gcc442b.htm'. Not what I expect to happen by clicking on the link, which is to start a transfer of a .zip file. What are the magic words to download? I'm behind a firewall where IT has FTP disabled. :-( ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: A little puzzled about the purpose of gschem
On Thursday 29 April 2010, John Doty wrote: >On Apr 29, 2010, at 6:50 AM, Russell Shaw wrote: >> Gene Heskett wrote: >>> On Wednesday 28 April 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: On Apr 28, 2010, at 3:40 PM, John Doty wrote: > Well, you started out complaining about a 741 model. I'd call that > a very rare, obsolete part: I haven't actually seen one in a > circuit in over 30 years. I guess it's still in textbooks (read > Stephen J. Gould's rants about textbook authors' tendency to copy > from previous textbooks sometime), but why would anyone use it in a > new design? Very rare?! I see 741s everywhere. WTF? -Dave >>> >>> Sorry to bust the bubble, but he's right. The 741 is well over 40 years >>> old, and its open loop first response pole, where the 6db per octave >>> rolloff begins, is a measly 10 hertz. >> >> The opamp is 1MHz unity BW. The higher the gain, the lower the first >> pole. An even better opamp would roll off at 1Hz. >> >>> Today there are $1.00 opamps with a working gain of 20 when feedback is >>> applied, with output slew rates of several thousand volts per second. >>> Thats working bandwidth to several hundred megahertz at the sort of >>> levels found in either a modern broadcast audio mixer, or a production >>> video switcher, and either of those are driving 60 ohms for audio, or 75 >>> for video. >> >> Those are video buffers. They have much less closed-loop gain and >> inferior offset voltages. They're also noisy and are very prone to >> oscillation with any stray capacitance or with certain feedback >> resistors. >> >>> Slew rate limits alone in the 741 means you can't honestly ask it for >>> more than a volt of output at full audio bandwidth. >> >> dV/dt = 2.pi.Vm >> >> at 20kHz and 1V/us, Vm=8Vpk >> >> quite ok for most apps below 5Vpk. >> >>> At 3 volts the slew rate distortion is so bad even these 75 year old >>> ears can hear it. Even a TLO-72 or 74 can mop the floor with a 741, and >>> output a +- 15 volt rail to rail signal doing it, but into the old 600 >>> ohm std load. >> >> LM741 has 1mV OS typical. TL072 is 3mV >> >> LM741 would be better than TL072 for control apps, and cheaper. > >Yes, but there are much better devices for control apps than a 741, with > its high power consumption, high bias current, and poor voltage ranges for > common mode, output, and power. > >Indeed, there are so many that it's a pain to choose. What should I replace > the obsolete OP220 with? What was it trying to do? That will have a heavy bearing on the replacement choice. >Stepping back, this discussion reinforces the point I was trying to make. > We frequently have newbies to gEDA complaining "why doesn't gEDA support > my common/standard needs straight out of installation?". But the universe > here is large, and nobody sees more than a bit of it. What you see as > essential depends on where you sit. When it comes to parts selection, Gene > thinks audio/video because that's what he works with. You seem to be cost > sensitive. I'm a scientific instrument designer: parts cost is usually a > negligible part of the budget, but noise and power are a big deal. We look > at this stuff different ways. > Quite so John. In my case parts costs were escalated because Grass thought (erroneously) that they had us by the whole bag, not just the short hairs. So, not knowing any better, I just did it. With excellent results. We differ also in career outlooks I suspect John. You are no doubt, from what I've read on this list for quite some time, a 'papered' engineer, with a heavy background in the math involved and are quite capable to ripping some of my arguments to shreds. I OTOH, was a boy geek before the word was invented and quit school to go fix these newfangled tv's in '48. Math was not one of my strong points, I learned more about the higher functions from an early TI calculator purchase than I ever got in formal schooling. I have been making electrons do as they are told since, although at 75, not for a living anymore. Making the switch to broadcast engineering in the early 60's narrowed my field of view and allowed me to get a much more closeup view, which was helpful. That 'specialization' has allowed me to be fairly well paid as the CE for the last 26 years. It has also gotten me accused of walking on water a few times. ;-) >Moving from parts selection to the broader issues of EDA, we again see a > great deal of diversity. There really are no common/standard needs beyond > the basics that gEDA does pretty well. If you believe that there are, I > think you need to broaden your horizons. +1 >gEDA's unique strength is that it supports that diversity well. > >John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. >http://www.noqsi.com/ >j...@noqsi.com -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) At that point it will c
Re: gEDA-user: A little puzzled about the purpose of gschem
On Thursday 29 April 2010, Russell Shaw wrote: >Gene Heskett wrote: >> On Wednesday 28 April 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> On Apr 28, 2010, at 3:40 PM, John Doty wrote: Well, you started out complaining about a 741 model. I'd call that a very rare, obsolete part: I haven't actually seen one in a circuit in over 30 years. I guess it's still in textbooks (read Stephen J. Gould's rants about textbook authors' tendency to copy from previous textbooks sometime), but why would anyone use it in a new design? >>> >>> Very rare?! I see 741s everywhere. WTF? >>> >>> -Dave >> >> Sorry to bust the bubble, but he's right. The 741 is well over 40 years >> old, and its open loop first response pole, where the 6db per octave >> rolloff begins, is a measly 10 hertz. > >The opamp is 1MHz unity BW. The higher the gain, the lower the first pole. >An even better opamp would roll off at 1Hz. > >> Today there are $1.00 opamps with a working >> gain of 20 when feedback is applied, with output slew rates of several >> thousand volts per second. Thats working bandwidth to several hundred >> megahertz at the sort of levels found in either a modern broadcast audio >> mixer, or a production video switcher, and either of those are driving 60 >> ohms for audio, or 75 for video. > >Those are video buffers. They have much less closed-loop gain and inferior >offset voltages. They're also noisy and are very prone to oscillation with >any stray capacitance or with certain feedback resistors. > I believe that to be an artifact of the GB product not being high enough in what was available, say back in LM-357 days. When I replaced some custom made discreet op-amps in that grass switcher with some fairly modern internally compensated ones with a GB of about 10Ghz, it was absolutely not a problem. They were the ideal block of gain & dead stable despite a layout when being used to sub for something else, that would give a modern video engineer recurring nightmares. Flying leads up to an inch long just to reach the original plates mounting and connecting holes in the PCB. That had "kludge" written all over it, but it technically kicked ass compared to the much slower discreet versions grass wanted $1700/copy for. >> Slew rate limits alone in the 741 means you can't honestly ask it for >> more than a volt of output at full audio bandwidth. > >dV/dt = 2.pi.Vm > >at 20kHz and 1V/us, Vm=8Vpk > >quite ok for most apps below 5Vpk. > >> At 3 volts the slew rate >> distortion is so bad even these 75 year old ears can hear it. Even a >> TLO-72 or 74 can mop the floor with a 741, and output a +- 15 volt rail >> to rail signal doing it, but into the old 600 ohm std load. > >LM741 has 1mV OS typical. TL072 is 3mV Can you hear 3mv dc? >LM741 would be better than TL072 for control apps, and cheaper. Maybe so, but with 4 of then in a dip, and room for 22 cards in the cage, I used them in multi-tube quantities (5 per card, 22 cards) for utility audio DA's at WDTV-5 for nearly 20 years. Most failures were on longer output run circuits, and lightening related. When you have a 255 foot tower 30 feet out the back door, the emp pulse from a lightning strike is considerable, and tends to knock out the output stages. So I designed one with some to5 outputs to buffer the chip output, and they had an even shorter life plus they crowbared the whole cage supply when they failed, much more catastrophic in effect as that didn't just cost us one audio src, it took us off the air. The old favorite burn your fingers power hog op-amp, 5532 would fail at 20x that rate under the same conditions. In broadcast, you learn to use what gets the job done with audio performance that is adequate, and is the _most_ dependable. Getting rid of that last .001% of distortion is not a priority that even makes the list. However, 25volts p-p at 20 khz with no slew rate or cross-over discernible on a 100mhz scope, or at lower frequencies my ears could hear well was "good enough for the girls I went with". -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Ctrl+Option+Command + P + R dracus - YE GODS! That's worse than EMACS! hehehehe don't ask what that does :P ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: A little puzzled about the purpose of gschem
On Apr 29, 2010, at 6:50 AM, Russell Shaw wrote: > Gene Heskett wrote: >> On Wednesday 28 April 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> On Apr 28, 2010, at 3:40 PM, John Doty wrote: Well, you started out complaining about a 741 model. I'd call that a very rare, obsolete part: I haven't actually seen one in a circuit in over 30 years. I guess it's still in textbooks (read Stephen J. Gould's rants about textbook authors' tendency to copy from previous textbooks sometime), but why would anyone use it in a new design? >>> Very rare?! I see 741s everywhere. WTF? >>> >>> -Dave >>> >> Sorry to bust the bubble, but he's right. The 741 is well over 40 years >> old, and its open loop first response pole, where the 6db per octave rolloff >> begins, is a measly 10 hertz. > > The opamp is 1MHz unity BW. The higher the gain, the lower the first pole. > An even better opamp would roll off at 1Hz. > >> Today there are $1.00 opamps with a working gain of 20 when feedback is >> applied, with output slew rates of several thousand volts per second. Thats >> working bandwidth to several hundred megahertz at the sort of levels found >> in either a modern broadcast audio mixer, or a production video switcher, >> and either of those are driving 60 ohms for audio, or 75 for video. > > Those are video buffers. They have much less closed-loop gain and inferior > offset voltages. They're also noisy and are very prone to oscillation with > any stray capacitance or with certain feedback resistors. > >> Slew rate limits alone in the 741 means you can't honestly ask it for more >> than a volt of output at full audio bandwidth. > > dV/dt = 2.pi.Vm > > at 20kHz and 1V/us, Vm=8Vpk > > quite ok for most apps below 5Vpk. > >> At 3 volts the slew rate distortion is so bad even these 75 year old ears >> can hear it. Even a TLO-72 or 74 can mop the floor with a 741, and output a >> +- 15 volt rail to rail signal doing it, but into the old 600 ohm std load. > > LM741 has 1mV OS typical. TL072 is 3mV > > LM741 would be better than TL072 for control apps, and cheaper. Yes, but there are much better devices for control apps than a 741, with its high power consumption, high bias current, and poor voltage ranges for common mode, output, and power. Indeed, there are so many that it's a pain to choose. What should I replace the obsolete OP220 with? Stepping back, this discussion reinforces the point I was trying to make. We frequently have newbies to gEDA complaining "why doesn't gEDA support my common/standard needs straight out of installation?". But the universe here is large, and nobody sees more than a bit of it. What you see as essential depends on where you sit. When it comes to parts selection, Gene thinks audio/video because that's what he works with. You seem to be cost sensitive. I'm a scientific instrument designer: parts cost is usually a negligible part of the budget, but noise and power are a big deal. We look at this stuff different ways. Moving from parts selection to the broader issues of EDA, we again see a great deal of diversity. There really are no common/standard needs beyond the basics that gEDA does pretty well. If you believe that there are, I think you need to broaden your horizons. gEDA's unique strength is that it supports that diversity well. John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ j...@noqsi.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: A little puzzled about the purpose of gschem
On Thursday 29 April 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: >On Apr 29, 2010, at 12:48 AM, Gene Heskett wrote: Well, you started out complaining about a 741 model. I'd call that a very rare, obsolete part: I haven't actually seen one in a circuit in over 30 years. I guess it's still in textbooks (read Stephen J. Gould's rants about textbook authors' tendency to copy from previous textbooks sometime), but why would anyone use it in a new design? >>> >>> Very rare?! I see 741s everywhere. WTF? >> >> Sorry to bust the bubble, but he's right. The 741 is well over 40 >> years old, >> and its open loop first response pole, where the 6db per octave >> rolloff >> begins, is a measly 10 hertz. Today there are $1.00 opamps with a >> working >> gain of 20 when feedback is applied, with output slew rates of several >> thousand volts per second. Thats working bandwidth to several hundred >> megahertz at the sort of levels found in either a modern broadcast >> audio >> mixer, or a production video switcher, and either of those are >> driving 60 >> ohms for audio, or 75 for video. >> >> Slew rate limits alone in the 741 means you can't honestly ask it >> for more >> than a volt of output at full audio bandwidth. At 3 volts the slew >> rate >> distortion is so bad even these 75 year old ears can hear it. Even >> a TLO-72 >> or 74 can mop the floor with a 741, and output a +- 15 volt rail to >> rail >> signal doing it, but into the old 600 ohm std load. > > No bubbles to bust, I'm not particularly fond of the 741...yes >there are definitely better opamps out there (I usually use OP07s as >my general-purpose opamp) but that doesn't change the fact that I see >741s everywhere. They are far (VERY far) from rare. > > -Dave > At one point I had to replace some custom made on ceramic plates, op-amps in a Grass Valley 300-3A/B switcher, and GVG were being asses, wanting $1700 for one of them. I went to the catalogs & found a to5 can that looked good, and put them into 3 failed channels of that production video switcher. They were so much faster, for $1.32 each, that it threw it out of color phase by about 10 degrees. If the removal and changeover hadn't been at least an hours work per channel, and I'd have had to replace about 48 of them all told, I would have. But we were then on notice that digital was coming, so that, originally $175,000 switcher was effectively in maintenance mode only. -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Your happiness is intertwined with your outlook on life. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: suppress command line window in Win32 build
On Thu, 2010-04-29 at 15:23 +0200, Duncan Drennan wrote: > > Are you building yourself? > > > > Just add the -mwindows flag to the linker command line and the console > > will go away. > > > > Fixing up the Makefiles to add $(MINGW_GUI_LDFLAGS) to the > > gschem_LDFLAGS variables should fix the issue. (And similar for > > gattrib). > > Thanks for the help Peter, I'll have a look at that (I am building it > myself). I *really* appreciate the effort you've put in to the Win32 > builds, and all the help you've given me with various questions. Thanks for the testing! I've got a patch ready for testing (attached), and if you can confirm it works, I'll push it to git HEAD once Ales declares the servers are ready for use again. It is probably also a candidate for the 1.6.x stable series if we end up releasing a 1.6.2 version. -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) Tel: +44 (0)1223 748328 - (Shared lab phone, ask for me) diff --git a/gattrib/src/Makefile.am b/gattrib/src/Makefile.am index 623b639..a8b8851 100644 --- a/gattrib/src/Makefile.am +++ b/gattrib/src/Makefile.am @@ -34,10 +34,10 @@ gattrib_SOURCES = \ gattrib_CPPFLAGS = -I$(top_srcdir)/libgeda/include \ -I$(srcdir)/../include -I$(top_srcdir) -I$(includedir) gattrib_CFLAGS = $(GCC_CFLAGS) $(GLIB_CFLAGS) \ - $(MINGW_CFLAGS) $(MINGW_GUI_CFLAGS) \ + $(MINGW_CFLAGS) \ $(GTK_CFLAGS) $(GTHREAD_CFLAGS) $(GUILE_CFLAGS) gattrib_LDFLAGS = $(GLIB_LIBS) $(GTK_LIBS) $(GTHREAD_LIBS) \ - $(GUILE_LIBS) + $(GUILE_LIBS) $(MINGW_GUI_CFLAGS) gattrib_LDADD = $(top_builddir)/libgeda/src/libgeda.la MOSTLYCLEANFILES = *.log *.ps core FILE *~ #*# diff --git a/gschem/src/Makefile.am b/gschem/src/Makefile.am index 2c2ffd3..4e04085 100644 --- a/gschem/src/Makefile.am +++ b/gschem/src/Makefile.am @@ -71,10 +71,10 @@ gschem_SOURCES = \ gschem_CPPFLAGS = -I$(top_srcdir)/libgeda/include -I$(srcdir)/../include \ -I$(top_srcdir) -I$(includedir) -I$(top_srcdir)/intl gschem_CFLAGS = $(GCC_CFLAGS) $(LIBSTROKE_CFLAGS) \ - $(MINGW_CFLAGS) $(MINGW_GUI_CFLAGS) \ + $(MINGW_CFLAGS) \ $(GLIB_CFLAGS) $(GTK_CFLAGS) $(GTHREAD_CFLAGS) $(GUILE_CFLAGS) gschem_LDFLAGS = $(LIBSTROKE_LDFLAGS) $(GLIB_LIBS) $(GTK_LIBS) \ - $(GTHREAD_LIBS) $(GUILE_LIBS) + $(GTHREAD_LIBS) $(GUILE_LIBS) $(MINGW_GUI_LDFLAGS) gschem_LDADD = $(top_builddir)/libgeda/src/libgeda.la @LIBINTL@ localedir = @datadir@/locale ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: suppress command line window in Win32 build
> Are you building yourself? > > Just add the -mwindows flag to the linker command line and the console > will go away. > > Fixing up the Makefiles to add $(MINGW_GUI_LDFLAGS) to the > gschem_LDFLAGS variables should fix the issue. (And similar for > gattrib). Thanks for the help Peter, I'll have a look at that (I am building it myself). I *really* appreciate the effort you've put in to the Win32 builds, and all the help you've given me with various questions. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: suppress command line window in Win32 build
How about fixing it then. On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 9:57 PM, Peter Clifton wrote: > On Thu, 2010-04-29 at 21:23 +0900, timecop wrote: >> thats not the window he's talking about. > > Yes it is. > >> how about actually running the windows build. > > I'm the one who built it! > > -- > Peter Clifton > > Electrical Engineering Division, > Engineering Department, > University of Cambridge, > 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, > Cambridge > CB3 0FA > > Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) > Tel: +44 (0)1223 748328 - (Shared lab phone, ask for me) > > > > ___ > geda-user mailing list > geda-user@moria.seul.org > http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user > ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: suppress command line window in Win32 build
On Thu, 2010-04-29 at 21:23 +0900, timecop wrote: > thats not the window he's talking about. Yes it is. > how about actually running the windows build. I'm the one who built it! -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) Tel: +44 (0)1223 748328 - (Shared lab phone, ask for me) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: A little puzzled about the purpose of gschem
Gene Heskett wrote: On Wednesday 28 April 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: On Apr 28, 2010, at 3:40 PM, John Doty wrote: Well, you started out complaining about a 741 model. I'd call that a very rare, obsolete part: I haven't actually seen one in a circuit in over 30 years. I guess it's still in textbooks (read Stephen J. Gould's rants about textbook authors' tendency to copy from previous textbooks sometime), but why would anyone use it in a new design? Very rare?! I see 741s everywhere. WTF? -Dave Sorry to bust the bubble, but he's right. The 741 is well over 40 years old, and its open loop first response pole, where the 6db per octave rolloff begins, is a measly 10 hertz. The opamp is 1MHz unity BW. The higher the gain, the lower the first pole. An even better opamp would roll off at 1Hz. Today there are $1.00 opamps with a working gain of 20 when feedback is applied, with output slew rates of several thousand volts per second. Thats working bandwidth to several hundred megahertz at the sort of levels found in either a modern broadcast audio mixer, or a production video switcher, and either of those are driving 60 ohms for audio, or 75 for video. Those are video buffers. They have much less closed-loop gain and inferior offset voltages. They're also noisy and are very prone to oscillation with any stray capacitance or with certain feedback resistors. Slew rate limits alone in the 741 means you can't honestly ask it for more than a volt of output at full audio bandwidth. dV/dt = 2.pi.Vm at 20kHz and 1V/us, Vm=8Vpk quite ok for most apps below 5Vpk. At 3 volts the slew rate distortion is so bad even these 75 year old ears can hear it. Even a TLO-72 or 74 can mop the floor with a 741, and output a +- 15 volt rail to rail signal doing it, but into the old 600 ohm std load. LM741 has 1mV OS typical. TL072 is 3mV LM741 would be better than TL072 for control apps, and cheaper. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: configure script patch
On Apr 29, 2010, at 6:21 AM, Peter Clifton wrote: > I think we need to try to be consistent, and adding suggestions for > every possible point of failure could be a lot of work. More a FAQ than something that belongs in the code. John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ j...@noqsi.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: suppress command line window in Win32 build
thats not the window he's talking about. how about actually running the windows build. On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 9:17 PM, Peter Clifton wrote: > On Thu, 2010-04-29 at 14:01 +0200, Duncan Drennan wrote: >> Hi, >> >> Is there a way to suppress the command prompt window in the Win32 >> builds? Does anyone have any idea what causes that artefact to arise? > > Are you building yourself? > > Just add the -mwindows flag to the linker command line and the console > will go away. > > I believe it will also stop any debugging output from the console (if > you do run it from cmd.exe). > > A quick grep reveals we set the "MINGW_GUI_LDFLAGS", but we don't > actually include it from any of our GUI applications, there is a > "thinko", and we use the variable "MINGW_GUI_CFLAGS", which is > incorrect: > > pc...@pcjc2lap:~/gedasrc/git$ grep MINGW_GUI_LDFLAGS * -R --include > "Makefile\.am" > pc...@pcjc2lap:~/gedasrc/git$ grep MINGW_GUI_CFLAGS * -R --include > "Makefile\.am" > gattrib/src/Makefile.am: $(MINGW_CFLAGS) $(MINGW_GUI_CFLAGS) \ > gschem/src/Makefile.am: $(MINGW_CFLAGS) $(MINGW_GUI_CFLAGS) \ > > pc...@pcjc2lap:~/gedasrc/git$ grep MINGW_GUI_LDFLAGS m4/* -R > m4/geda-windows.m4: MINGW_GUI_LDFLAGS=-mwindows > m4/geda-windows.m4: AC_SUBST(MINGW_GUI_LDFLAGS) > pc...@pcjc2lap:~/gedasrc/git$ grep MINGW_GUI_CFLAGS m4/* -R > > > Fixing up the Makefiles to add $(MINGW_GUI_LDFLAGS) to the > gschem_LDFLAGS variables should fix the issue. (And similar for > gattrib). > > -- > Peter Clifton > > Electrical Engineering Division, > Engineering Department, > University of Cambridge, > 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, > Cambridge > CB3 0FA > > Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) > Tel: +44 (0)1223 748328 - (Shared lab phone, ask for me) > > > > ___ > geda-user mailing list > geda-user@moria.seul.org > http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user > ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: configure script patch
On Thu, 2010-04-29 at 14:19 +0300, Justas Poderys wrote: > Hi All, > > I'm using Ubuntu and needed to update geda-gaf, as version in repository > is older than latest released. Since RFTM'ing is not my strongest side, > spent an hour or so wondering why configure would fail, even though I > installed guile-1.8 package. Now it seems trivial that I needed > guile-1.8-dev. I made a small patch to configure script, that check if > user is using debian or its' derivative and hint that user might need > guile dev. configure is an auto-generated file, so you can't patch it like that. You would need to add a rule in configure.ac. Actually, configure.ac pulls in loads of custom macros from the m4 directory. The file you'd want to patch is probably m4/geda-guile.m4 I'm of mixed feelings about the idea though.. are we going to fix up every potential configure failure with a list of Debian, Fedora, ... package names to install? I think we need to try to be consistent, and adding suggestions for every possible point of failure could be a lot of work. -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) Tel: +44 (0)1223 748328 - (Shared lab phone, ask for me) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: suppress command line window in Win32 build
On Thu, 2010-04-29 at 14:01 +0200, Duncan Drennan wrote: > Hi, > > Is there a way to suppress the command prompt window in the Win32 > builds? Does anyone have any idea what causes that artefact to arise? Are you building yourself? Just add the -mwindows flag to the linker command line and the console will go away. I believe it will also stop any debugging output from the console (if you do run it from cmd.exe). A quick grep reveals we set the "MINGW_GUI_LDFLAGS", but we don't actually include it from any of our GUI applications, there is a "thinko", and we use the variable "MINGW_GUI_CFLAGS", which is incorrect: pc...@pcjc2lap:~/gedasrc/git$ grep MINGW_GUI_LDFLAGS * -R --include "Makefile\.am" pc...@pcjc2lap:~/gedasrc/git$ grep MINGW_GUI_CFLAGS * -R --include "Makefile\.am" gattrib/src/Makefile.am:$(MINGW_CFLAGS) $(MINGW_GUI_CFLAGS) \ gschem/src/Makefile.am: $(MINGW_CFLAGS) $(MINGW_GUI_CFLAGS) \ pc...@pcjc2lap:~/gedasrc/git$ grep MINGW_GUI_LDFLAGS m4/* -R m4/geda-windows.m4: MINGW_GUI_LDFLAGS=-mwindows m4/geda-windows.m4: AC_SUBST(MINGW_GUI_LDFLAGS) pc...@pcjc2lap:~/gedasrc/git$ grep MINGW_GUI_CFLAGS m4/* -R Fixing up the Makefiles to add $(MINGW_GUI_LDFLAGS) to the gschem_LDFLAGS variables should fix the issue. (And similar for gattrib). -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) Tel: +44 (0)1223 748328 - (Shared lab phone, ask for me) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: suppress command line window in Win32 build
im guessing something related to the "geda is a collection of a bunch of random command line scripts" and... anyway, i saw it there last time i bothered trying pcb on windows and i was like lol professional. On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 9:01 PM, Duncan Drennan wrote: > Hi, > > Is there a way to suppress the command prompt window in the Win32 > builds? Does anyone have any idea what causes that artefact to arise? > > Thanks, > Duncan > > > ___ > geda-user mailing list > geda-user@moria.seul.org > http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user > ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: A little puzzled about the purpose of gschem
On Apr 28, 2010, at 9:41 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Very rare?! I see 741s everywhere. WTF? Different worlds. You make my point. Why is anybody using anything so crummy in the 21st century? John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ j...@noqsi.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: A little puzzled about the purpose of gschem
On Apr 28, 2010, at 9:41 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Apr 28, 2010, at 3:40 PM, John Doty wrote: >> Well, you started out complaining about a 741 model. I'd call that a very >> rare, obsolete part: I haven't actually seen one in a circuit in over 30 >> years. I guess it's still in textbooks (read Stephen J. Gould's rants about >> textbook authors' tendency to copy from previous textbooks sometime), but >> why would anyone use it in a new design? > > Very rare?! I see 741s everywhere. WTF? > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > > > ___ > geda-user mailing list > geda-user@moria.seul.org > http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user > John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ j...@noqsi.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
gEDA-user: suppress command line window in Win32 build
Hi, Is there a way to suppress the command prompt window in the Win32 builds? Does anyone have any idea what causes that artefact to arise? Thanks, Duncan ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
gEDA-user: configure script patch
Hi All,
I'm using Ubuntu and needed to update geda-gaf, as version in repository
is older than latest released. Since RFTM'ing is not my strongest side,
spent an hour or so wondering why configure would fail, even though I
installed guile-1.8 package. Now it seems trivial that I needed
guile-1.8-dev. I made a small patch to configure script, that check if
user is using debian or its' derivative and hint that user might need
guile dev.
Cheers,
Justas
--- configure.old 2010-04-29 14:10:12.584816558 +0300
+++ configure.new 2010-04-29 14:08:18.844800164 +0300
@@ -22137,7 +22137,11 @@
if test "${GUILE_CONFIG}" = "notfound" ; then
{ { $as_echo "$as_me:$LINENO: error: ${PKG_CONFIG} could not locate guile and guile-config was not found" >&5
-$as_echo "$as_me: error: ${PKG_CONFIG} could not locate guile and guile-config was not found" >&2;}
+$as_echo "$as_me: error: ${PKG_CONFIG} could not locate guile and guile-config was not found" >&2;
+if test -f /etc/debian_version ; then
+ $as_echo "$as_me: script detected that you are using debian or its' derivative system. Try installing guile-x.y-dev package" >&2
+fi
+}
{ (exit 1); exit 1; }; }
fi
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Re: gEDA-user: gpleda.org going down (server move)
[snip] >If you get a blank page, then it means that DNS hasn't been fully >propagated (or if it has, then I've managed to mess something up). > DNS seems to have propagated sufficient, so most services should be up and running. Let me know if you see something broken. -Ales ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Database on symbols, footprints and other (was "Re: gattrib")
A bit more reading and thinking reveals a problem with current gpart: To express the many-to-many relation between parts and symbols it uses a table called "device". This is fed by the infamous device attribute in the symbol libraries. There's nothing wrong in the theory of DB-design with it, but the indiscriminate use of this attribute in the symbol-libs waters the use of this design down to uselessness. While sacrificing the ability to attach more than one symbol to a part by directly referencing the symbol in the part, my schema avoids this problem. To use it, one has to bypass the device thing and enter a correct relation. This would have meant no drawback for me, since I rarely see a need to use more than one symbol per part personally. And others will see this different. The flexible way to fix this, is to go the way of gpart and use the device table correctly by either not feeding from the current symbol libraries of fixing the device attribute there. Example that bit me on 1st chance: there is a US and EUR variant of the resistor-varible-?.sym so both will have zealots in favour. Both use a random pinout and don't show, which pin is which in the schematic. Both say device=RESISTOR_VARIABLE and here is the problem: of course the tap on my physical potentiometer is at pin 2 and so it is in my selfmade footprint, while in the symbols the tap is of course at pin 3. To get this right in the database one has to use something like device=POTENTIOMETER_T2 to show where the tap is in the symbol, so it is impossible, to connect a device=POTENTIOMETER_T3 with my footprint. Of course it was easy to fix this with a scalpel, verowire and a soldering iron ;-) And later on with a selfmade symbol that is more elegant than the others anyway... Regards, Armin Armin Faltl wrote: Thanks for the hint. I installed git on my machine to get this Then I searched for references on the web, since the README is a oneliner stating it's own existence. After having found this http://www.geda.seul.org/wiki/geda:gparts_dd I see now, that I reinvented the wheel with small differences. No mention of gparts can be found in the master documentation of geda http://geda.seul.org/wiki/geda:documentation I won't try to compile it now, but the table diagram looks promissing. Regards, Armin ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: passing parameters to a subckt
On Sunday 25 April 2010, kai-martin knaak wrote:
> 6) Opamps:
> a) An ideal opamp with essentially infinite
> amplification, infinite slew rate, zero bias current, no
> input offset, etc.
Here's an op-amp:
* Generic op-amp behavioral model
.subckt opamp (out+ out- in+ in-)
.param gain=100k sr=1e99 clip=1e99 gbp=1e99
.param cc='1/(6.283185*gbp)'
.param ilim='cc*sr'
G1 (0 1 in+ in-) pwl
('-2*ilim','-ilim','-ilim','-ilim','ilim','ilim','2*ilim','ilim')
R1 (1 0) 'gain'
Cc (1 0) 'cc'
E1 (out+ out- 1 0) pwl
('-2*clip','-clip','-clip','-clip','clip','clip','2*clip','clip')
.ends
You can specify:
gain = open loop gain
clip = output clipping voltage
sr = slew rate (volts per second)
gbp = gain bandwidth product
There are default values, in case you don't want to specify.
To call:
X1 (out 0 in+ in-) opamp gain=10k gbp=1meg clip=13 sr='5/1e-6'
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