Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
> Hmmm. The pcb I got from the iso image features layer buttons, tool > buttons and tear-off menus too ;-) Hey, so it does! Still, the difference is that lesstif *relies* on that feature to make up for the fact that there are no controls in the main window. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
DJ Delorie wrote: > The lesstif GUI doesn't have all the "clutter" that the Gtk one does - > no layer buttons, no tool buttons, etc. Instead, it has tear-off > menus. Hmmm. The pcb I got from the iso image features layer buttons, tool buttons and tear-off menus too ;-) ---<(kaimartin)>--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lilalaser.de/blog ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
> What is that one missing? I had thought the GTK one more complete, > but... sounds like I need to switch to get speedy moving of large > groups of layout. The lesstif GUI doesn't have all the "clutter" that the Gtk one does - no layer buttons, no tool buttons, etc. Instead, it has tear-off menus. Choose the ones you want, and tear them off and position them where you want. The lesstif gui uses pcb-menu.res to control the menu, key bindings, and mouse button bindings. It looks in the current directory first, then in ~/.pcb, then the installed version. The lesstif GUI also has four different "flip" options - vert, horiz, no motion, and rotate 180 degrees. I tend to have a custom pcb-menu for each project, depending on what I'm doing I'll bind less-used keys to macros and things. For example, my gedasymbols directory has '[' bound to a selection->element macro, and ']' the reverse, and working projects often have "rotate element under pointer" bound to right button. To use the lesstif hid, just use "./configure --with-gui=lesstif" to build pcb. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
I"ve been using gtk and wondered why I couldn't get my preferred Pcb resource bindkey file to work... The Lesstif GUI has it? What is that one missing? I had thought the GTK one more complete, but... sounds like I need to switch to get speedy moving of large groups of layout. John G DJ Delorie wrote: * You can change the key bindings (at least in lesstif) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
kmk wrote: And other info could be displayed about that object too. For example track/via thickness, drill size, joined or not. Please put this info to a command line rather than where the mouse sits. Some kind of pop up balloons would be too much clutter. Yes, absolutely. It could be up at the top line, near the coordinates maybe. Also an outline of the solder-resist spacing. I feel no need for that. Spacing can be conveniently seen and worked on if I switch its layer to visible. Huh? I didn't know you could view the mask spacing on the screen. DJ Delorie wrote: It would be nice if we could thin-draw it, though. As is, it obscures other things on the board you might be interested in. Yes, that's exactly what I had in mind. When you hover the mouse over a grab handle, they could appear, so you know what'll happen when you click n' drag. Some applications switch the mouse icon if special actions are available. This puts the info right where your eyes are, but won't distract attention. As a bonus the Xserver deals with all the pixel hassles. Even better. (check out our robot hand. All 37 PCBs in it were designed with Pcb. http://www.shadowrobot.com/hand/overview.shtml) excellent. First time I see these air muscles outside a Festo boot on Hannover fair. We were there long before Festo ;) Hugo ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
DJ Delorie wrote: > That was me. Good job! To each saint his candle. ---<(kaimartin)>--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lilalaser.de/blog ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
> > things I love about PCB is the fact that > > there are single key commands, to switch layers, and choose > > tools, etc. This means I can work two handed, making it faster, > > and reducing RSI. > > Full ack. > pcb excels in this. > Being able to increment sizes with a single key is a big bonus. To add to this: * You can change the key bindings (at least in lesstif) * You can tear off commonly used (at the moment) menus (at least in lesstif) * If all else fails you still have a CLI you can type into. The lesstif hid also supports two-key sequences like gschem. > > Also an outline of the solder-resist spacing. > > I feel no need for that. Spacing can be conveniently seen and worked on > if I switch its layer to visible. It would be nice if we could thin-draw it, though. As is, it obscures other things on the board you might be interested in. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
Hugo Elias wrote: > things I love about PCB is the fact that > there are single key commands, to switch layers, and choose > tools, etc. This means I can work two handed, making it faster, > and reducing RSI. Full ack. pcb excels in this. Being able to increment sizes with a single key is a big bonus. > If I could change something about the interface, I would like > to see it being more dynamic, I.E. giving more real-time feedback > to the user. Full ack again. > When you hover the mouse over an object, it would be great if > the object could highlight, so you can be sure you know what > you'll grab when you click. you name it. > And other info could be displayed about that object too. > For example track/via thickness, drill size, joined or not. Please put this info to a command line rather than where the mouse sits. Some kind of pop up balloons would be too much clutter. > Also an outline of the solder-resist spacing. I feel no need for that. Spacing can be conveniently seen and worked on if I switch its layer to visible. > When you hover the mouse over a grab handle, they could > appear, so you know what'll happen when you click n' drag. Some applications switch the mouse icon if special actions are available. This puts the info right where your eyes are, but won't distract attention. As a bonus the Xserver deals with all the pixel hassles. > (check out our robot hand. All 37 PCBs in it were designed with Pcb. > http://www.shadowrobot.com/hand/overview.shtml) excellent. First time I see these air muscles outside a Festo boot on Hannover fair. ---<(kaimartin)>--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lilalaser.de/blog ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
On Sep 21, 2006, at 9:09 AM, Vaughn Treude wrote: I didn't mean to imply that it was badly designed, just that it was the earliest program in the suite, and it was written for an OS that's not (to my knowledge) in common use anymore. Therefore it may have been designed to different standards. UNIX isn't in common use anymore?! It was my understanding that the very first version of PCB was written for an Atari. If I'm mistaken about that, I stand corrected. Nono...that was my mistake. My brain was experiencing parity errors. Need to get that CRC upgrade.. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
On 9/21/06, Igor2 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Of course, it would make more sense if HIDs could be loaded runtime :) Before that, there could be 2 binaries and on download and/or install and/or ./configure the user could choose. I'm not sure how comfortable to manage 2 branches of the mostly same HID with cvs, it's more or less ok with SVN (but means extra work of course). Having to recompile something to turn off balloon help seems a bit of a stretch, no? Remember that when recompiling, you always run the risk of breaking something. It's like tearing down your current house and building a new one, just to change a light fixture. The dynamically loadable HIDs are a good idea, of course -- this is essentially how PC/GEOS worked to allow configuration not only of the core OS, but also its support for novice/intermediate/advanced users for most GeoWorks applications. But that sounds like a heavy-weight process that 99% of the people here just won't use -- thus still putting code in that you won't use. There is nothing wrong with supporting balloon help, and it's hardly what I'd call heavyweight. PCB needs to maintain some form of command tables *anyway* -- extending them with quick synopses and creating a function to render them into a balloon seems to me like it'd be a whole lot less heavyweight than any other idea proposed. Remember, my complaint (about a year ago?) with PCB was *consistency* and *learnability* with gschem. They are such similar programs from the user's perspective (both allowing you to draw and manage objects on a 2D surface) that they should, ideally, have similarly invoked command-sets. We know from experience that they DO have similar functionality at the graphical level (move this here, rotate that there, etc). Commands to "move this here" and "rotate that there" should have similar names. Some might say, "But, now you're advocating integration!" No -- they're not integrated any more than Emacs is integrated with Word. Yet both have such a similar interface that knowledge of Word allows one to (at least minimally) use Emacs, and vice versa. I won't get into Vi (though Vi is my favorite editor of choice currently, I must point out that I spent the better part of a year learning it while becoming increasingly frustrated with alternatives like joe and jed. Even today, however, I'm *still* learning new commands for common tasks in Vi. Emacs is still as opaque to me as a cinder block, despite having used MicroEmacs on AmigaOS for years; but I can still do *basic* editing with it). But I'm digressing, hopefully with a point to prove that similar interfaces do not an integrated application make. The balloon help would go a long way towards reminding the user, "Hey, this is what you can do with this object, and here are the keyboard commands to do it." Eventually, as experience with the program grows, you won't need the balloons. So you can turn them off. Actually, on second thought, perhaps balloons aren't the right tool, despite being the right concept. Instead, a semi-transparent pane can appear at the bottom of the screen (if the mouse is above half-way the view's height), or at the top of the screen (if the mouse is below the halfway mark). That seems to make more sense. -- Samuel A. Falvo II ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
On Sep 21, 2006, at 8:46 AM, DJ Delorie wrote: I didn't mean to imply that it was badly designed, just that it was the earliest program in the suite, and it was written for an OS that's not (to my knowledge) in common use anymore. Therefore it may have been designed to different standards. UNIX isn't in common use anymore?! The Atari ST isn't in common use anymore. Read the "History" section of the pcb manual. Oh, duh. I stand corrected. =) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
On Thu, 21 Sep 2006, Samuel A. Falvo II wrote: >Here's a possible suggestion for compromise:- > >Retain the current, keyboard-centric user interface. There is no need >to change it, and on top of that, you'd P-off a whole lot of currently >happy users. But for those who are new to the product, enable a mode >of operation whereby when the mouse hovers over an item for, say, 2 >seconds, a semi-transparent balloon would pop-up listing the keyboard >commands that are valid and applicable to that object. As soon as the >mouse moves off that object, the balloon disappears and the process >repeated. > >To retain the old-style user interface, just go into your settings and >turn off "balloon help." > I would hate having an extra function I wouldn't ever use (the extra bloat, compile time and whatever). What about forking the gtk hid, so we would have a gtk hid that works as now and another that has balloon or even some extra clicky-clicky feature? Of course, it would make more sense if HIDs could be loaded runtime :) Before that, there could be 2 binaries and on download and/or install and/or ./configure the user could choose. I'm not sure how comfortable to manage 2 branches of the mostly same HID with cvs, it's more or less ok with SVN (but means extra work of course). Igor2 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
On 9/21/06, DJ Delorie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: The Atari ST isn't in common use anymore. Read the "History" section of the pcb manual. And the Atari ST's UI norms were much closer to MacOS's norms (being built around GEM), which all but eschews the use of the keyboard. So that blows THAT theory out of the water. The fact of the matter is, the keyboard was used for expediency -- both in programming and in usability. For as much as I abhore the PCB UI, I have to admit that it does make using it lightning fast. Here's a possible suggestion for compromise:- Retain the current, keyboard-centric user interface. There is no need to change it, and on top of that, you'd P-off a whole lot of currently happy users. But for those who are new to the product, enable a mode of operation whereby when the mouse hovers over an item for, say, 2 seconds, a semi-transparent balloon would pop-up listing the keyboard commands that are valid and applicable to that object. As soon as the mouse moves off that object, the balloon disappears and the process repeated. To retain the old-style user interface, just go into your settings and turn off "balloon help." -- Samuel A. Falvo II ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
On Wed, 2006-09-20 at 21:51, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Sep 21, 2006, at 12:49 AM, Vaughn Treude wrote: > >>Yes, I agree. A large number of PCB beginners, however, complain > >> about the UI and assume it's "unusual" because it was thrown together > >> without any sort of attention, while I'm certain the opposite is true. > > > > I didn't mean to imply that it was badly designed, just that it was the > > earliest program in the suite, and it was written for an OS that's not > > (to my knowledge) in common use anymore. Therefore it may have been > > designed to different standards. > >UNIX isn't in common use anymore?! > > -Dave > It was my understanding that the very first version of PCB was written for an Atari. If I'm mistaken about that, I stand corrected. Vaughn > -- > Dave McGuire > Cape Coral, FL > > > > ___ > geda-user mailing list > geda-user@moria.seul.org > http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user > > ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
> > I didn't mean to imply that it was badly designed, just that it was the > > earliest program in the suite, and it was written for an OS that's not > > (to my knowledge) in common use anymore. Therefore it may have been > > designed to different standards. > >UNIX isn't in common use anymore?! The Atari ST isn't in common use anymore. Read the "History" section of the pcb manual. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
Let's not even THINK about dumbing down the impressive power of PCB by changing its UI to make it take a few hours instead of a few days to learn. The trade-off is one that every serious engineer or even spare-time tinkerer should be more than willing to make. -Dave I agree. One of the things I love about PCB is the fact that there are single key commands, to switch layers, and choose tools, etc. This means I can work two handed, making it faster, and reducing RSI. If I could change something about the interface, I would like to see it being more dynamic, I.E. giving more real-time feedback to the user. At the moment, there are the mouse coordinates in the top right of the window, but more info would be useful too. When you hover the mouse over an object, it would be great if the object could highlight, so you can be sure you know what you'll grab when you click. And other info could be displayed about that object too. For example track/via thickness, drill size, joined or not. Also an outline of the solder-resist spacing. When you hover the mouse over a grab handle, they could appear, so you know what'll happen when you click n' drag. Anything which makes the interface even less 'clicky' is great in my opinion. Many thanks - Hugo Shadow Robot Company (check out our robot hand. All 37 PCBs in it were designed with Pcb. http://www.shadowrobot.com/hand/overview.shtml) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
> Certain people maintain 'backports' of packages that way. You should take a look on this page. http://www.backports.org/dokuwiki/doku.php Levente ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
RE: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ? - suggestions
>Peter Clifton wrote: >Most of our work so far has been in gschem, and we're developing a GUI >frontend for gsch2pcb. (It's still very alpha at the moment). >Any ideas people have which might help make gEDA/PCB more usable without >sacrificing its excellent expert features, I'm sure all the developers >would be very interested to hear them on the list. I have been using gEDA and PCB for about 2 years now (and loving it). Here are a few of my suggestions: 1) Get rid of the annoying "No font information, using default font" error of PCB's when initially loading a schematic. If you go to http://www.minermade.com/pcb-geda/mods/gnet-gsch2pcb.scm you can download my solution to that problem. I edited the file to include all of the symbol fonts and it works under Cygwin and Ubuntu. ***(I also modified my layer names and groupings in this file). 2) PCB needs to read the layer names from the pcb file upon loading, and update the layer toolbar on the left hand side of the screen. As of the 20060422 build the layer names data is not updated until you click on a layer to activate/deactivate it. 3) The new GUI frontend for gsch2pcb should also prompt for the number of copper layers that the board will be made into, and generate the layer names, groupings, and colors to match. I have been working on this, and my solution is a bash script that works well for me in Cygwin and my friend in Ubuntu. It makes the BOM, performs the DRC2, and incorporates the layer groupings/names I want for a particular board during gsch2pcb. http://www.minermade.com/pcb-geda/mods.html (go down to newpcb schematic converter). 4) PCB loads the layer color setting from the user defined color settings ~/.PCB/color/file The color settings should be auto generated from the gnet-gsch2pcb.scm file and stored in the .pcb file so each project will remember its color settings that match its layer groupings. 5) In the gEDA/system-gsymrc file it lists all of the keystrokes in gEDA, but they are all lower case key strokes. Every time I am on another computer, I find myself duplicating these so all of my keystrokes are in upper case as well (EE for edit attributes, EC for copy, etc...). This way I can leave CAPSLOCK on for refdes and netnames which I usually make capital. If the gEDA/system-gsymrc file was released with duplicate capital keystroke entries it would be nice. For numbers 2 and 4 above, I will probably get around to them in a month or two if no one else does. One last comment about the cygwin post from a few days ago: Even though I do have Fedora core 4 running gEDA PCB on one of my old machines, I find myself using Cygwin on my dual monitor Windows machine. With the number of projects I do that have Windows only IDEs for the microcontroller and the projects where people want the custom software for the hardware in Visual C++6 or Visual Studio 2005, it is just much more convenient. I would like to thank all of you who have brought the project to where it is, I appreciate it very much. Andrew J. Miner Northfield, Minnesota ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
On Sep 21, 2006, at 12:49 AM, Vaughn Treude wrote: Yes, I agree. A large number of PCB beginners, however, complain about the UI and assume it's "unusual" because it was thrown together without any sort of attention, while I'm certain the opposite is true. I didn't mean to imply that it was badly designed, just that it was the earliest program in the suite, and it was written for an OS that's not (to my knowledge) in common use anymore. Therefore it may have been designed to different standards. UNIX isn't in common use anymore?! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
On Wed, 2006-09-20 at 12:14, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Sep 20, 2006, at 2:25 PM, kmk wrote: > >>> PCB's UI in particular deviates from Linux norms. > >> > >>"Linux norms"?? What exactly are the UI "norms" in the Linux > >> world? > > > > I don't think, usability of pcb suffers from deviation of some kind of > > official norms. Still, it helps to look how other applications GUIs > > handle similar problems. Some techniques have evolved over the years > > and > > proved to work better than others. Applications whose UI is rather > > pecular tend to loose users. I dumped qcad because of this. > >Yes, I agree. A large number of PCB beginners, however, complain > about the UI and assume it's "unusual" because it was thrown together > without any sort of attention, while I'm certain the opposite is true. I didn't mean to imply that it was badly designed, just that it was the earliest program in the suite, and it was written for an OS that's not (to my knowledge) in common use anymore. Therefore it may have been designed to different standards. > > I, too, had a hard time with the UI when I first started using PCB. > However, once I learned it, I found that it can be SCREAMING FAST and > very effective. It is NOT "newbie friendly", nor should it necessarily > be. Complex, powerful tools have a learning curve. I spent many days > gnashing my teeth while getting used to PCB's UI, and have now done > four years of extremely fast, efficient, effective design work with it. > That's a fine trade-off that I'm willing to make any time, and I > suspect that goes for many others as well. > >The "Linux norms" (as if such a thing actually existed) typically > cater to making Windows refugees comfortable with Linux by trying to > replace the point-and-drool "I don't need no steeenking I.Q." interface > while trying to avoiding its [unavoidable] drawbacks. This does not an > effective design tool make. > No, I didn't mean that either. I don't much care for the Windows way of doing things. It's just that powerful programs don't necessarily have to be super-complicated. Nor do we need to reinvent the wheel and do an interface in a different way just because it's possible. OTOH, I probably shouldn't be complaining about something I got for free. :-) My comments weren't really meant to be as negative as you understood them to be. Nor do I want to yank the rug out from underneath the folks who have been using PCB for a long time. If I ever broach this topic again (I'm rather swamped right now, so I shouldn't have gotten into it) I'll be much more specific about the handful of things in PCB that don't make sense to me. Vaughn T >Let's not even THINK about dumbing down the impressive power of PCB > by changing its UI to make it take a few hours instead of a few days to > learn. The trade-off is one that every serious engineer or even > spare-time tinkerer should be more than willing to make. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Cape Coral, FL > > > > ___ > geda-user mailing list > geda-user@moria.seul.org > http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user > > ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
On Wed, 2006-09-20 at 08:41, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Sep 20, 2006, at 10:24 AM, Vaughn Treude wrote: > > PCB's UI in particular deviates from Linux norms. > >"Linux norms"?? What exactly are the UI "norms" in the Linux world? > Please don't tell me GTK or KDE, as some of us use neither, and some of > us don't even run it under Linux. (Solaris here, in particular) > > -Dave > LOL. Well, maybe "Linux norms" is a contradiction in terms. :-) But I do a lot of work on both Linux and Windows (preferably the former) and nothing in PCB seemed very intuitive to me. Vaughn > -- > Dave McGuire > Cape Coral, FL > > > > ___ > geda-user mailing list > geda-user@moria.seul.org > http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user > > ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
[snip] >Any ideas people have which might help make gEDA/PCB more usable without >sacrificing its excellent expert features, I'm sure all the developers >would be very interested to hear them on the list. Agreed 100%. I'm all for making gEDA (gaf especially) more user friendly (and patches most welcome). I've been more stubborn in the past, but I can be successfully convinced if enough people complain nicely (and/or fix issues in a workable way). -Ales ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
On 9/20/06, David Griffith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: So, how can I get an up-to-date gEDA suite installed installed through Debian's packaging scheme without switching the entire machine to unstable and/or breaking stuff. I tried and wound up with a mess. One way is that you can build the package yourself on stable branch after getting sources from unstable. You will have to look at debian/control file and satisfy the build-depends: field with the versions of packages you have on your stable system. Certain people maintain 'backports' of packages that way. -- Ramakrishnan - VU3RDD ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
A recorder; was: Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
Peter Clifton wrote: On Wed, 2006-09-20 at 20:25 +0200, kmk wrote: The latest version did a major step in this direction with the ability to zoom with the mouse wheel. (Thanks to Peter Brett, IIRC) I added that functionality to gschem. I'm not sure who it was due to in PCB. By the time I checked out a CVS copy of pcb, I discovered that most of my wishlist had already been implemented :). Peter Brett and I sat down with some people here and came up with a list of improvements which could help new users (and experienced users alike) with the GUIs. The next basic UI feature on my wish list would be visual handles for tracks and objects. I think, I mentioned this before. Just take it as a reminder on how to make a user happy ;-) You mean "grips" at the end of tracks when you hover over them? That was something we thought about here too. Just something to make the ends of tracks more grabbable. I'm not sure how it would work with other types of object in PCB though. It would be great to have a macro recorder like the one present in Windows 3.1. I often need to press a combination like "eepintypepwr" to mark a pin with a pintype. If I could record such a sequence and play it with a simple combination it would be nice :) BTW - why there is no alt+... combination to set "[X] Visibility"? Tomasz Nowak ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
Stuart Brorson wrote: In fact all modern distributions use good package management systems and there is no excuse for not using one of those distros. But it is possible dat gEDA/pcb isn't present in some distributions. What I was trying to say is that IMHO the responsibility to provide good packages is the task of the distribution. I don't know other distributions very well, but in Debian it is possible to use reportbug and fill in a RFP (request for package). Maybe this is also possible in other distributions? U, the entire gEDA suite is now available as RPM packages in Fedora Extras, available for FC3, 4, 5. See here : https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/describecomponents.cgi?product=Fedora%20Extras There are also RPMs for SuSE, available here (thanks, Werner!): http://software.opensuse.org/download/home:/werner2101/ and don't forget NetBSD's pkgsrc which is also the official packaging system for DragonFly BSD and pkgsrc also works on linux, solaris, irix, darwin, etc. ftp://ftp.netbsd.org/pub/NetBSD/packages/pkgsrc/cad/geda/README.html ftp://ftp.netbsd.org/pub/NetBSD/packages/pkgsrc/cad/pcb/README.html ftp://ftp.netbsd.org/pub/NetBSD/packages/pkgsrc/cad/gnucap/README.html -Dan ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
> I'm not sure who it was due to in PCB. That was me. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
On Wed, 2006-09-20 at 20:25 +0200, kmk wrote: > The latest version did a major step in this direction with the ability > to zoom with the mouse wheel. (Thanks to Peter Brett, IIRC) I added that functionality to gschem. I'm not sure who it was due to in PCB. By the time I checked out a CVS copy of pcb, I discovered that most of my wishlist had already been implemented :). Peter Brett and I sat down with some people here and came up with a list of improvements which could help new users (and experienced users alike) with the GUIs. > The next basic UI feature on my wish list would be visual handles for > tracks and objects. I think, I mentioned this before. Just take it as a > reminder on how to make a user happy ;-) You mean "grips" at the end of tracks when you hover over them? That was something we thought about here too. Just something to make the ends of tracks more grabbable. I'm not sure how it would work with other types of object in PCB though. Most of our work so far has been in gschem, and we're developing a GUI frontend for gsch2pcb. (It's still very alpha at the moment). Any ideas people have which might help make gEDA/PCB more usable without sacrificing its excellent expert features, I'm sure all the developers would be very interested to hear them on the list. Regards Peter Clifton ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
Let's not even THINK about dumbing down the impressive power of PCB by changing its UI to make it take a few hours instead of a few days to learn. The trade-off is one that every serious engineer or even spare-time tinkerer should be more than willing to make. -Dave I will always prefer "expert friendly" tools over "beginner friendly" tools... for obvious reasons. --wpd ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
On Sep 20, 2006, at 2:25 PM, kmk wrote: PCB's UI in particular deviates from Linux norms. "Linux norms"?? What exactly are the UI "norms" in the Linux world? I don't think, usability of pcb suffers from deviation of some kind of official norms. Still, it helps to look how other applications GUIs handle similar problems. Some techniques have evolved over the years and proved to work better than others. Applications whose UI is rather pecular tend to loose users. I dumped qcad because of this. Yes, I agree. A large number of PCB beginners, however, complain about the UI and assume it's "unusual" because it was thrown together without any sort of attention, while I'm certain the opposite is true. I, too, had a hard time with the UI when I first started using PCB. However, once I learned it, I found that it can be SCREAMING FAST and very effective. It is NOT "newbie friendly", nor should it necessarily be. Complex, powerful tools have a learning curve. I spent many days gnashing my teeth while getting used to PCB's UI, and have now done four years of extremely fast, efficient, effective design work with it. That's a fine trade-off that I'm willing to make any time, and I suspect that goes for many others as well. The "Linux norms" (as if such a thing actually existed) typically cater to making Windows refugees comfortable with Linux by trying to replace the point-and-drool "I don't need no steeenking I.Q." interface while trying to avoiding its [unavoidable] drawbacks. This does not an effective design tool make. Let's not even THINK about dumbing down the impressive power of PCB by changing its UI to make it take a few hours instead of a few days to learn. The trade-off is one that every serious engineer or even spare-time tinkerer should be more than willing to make. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
Dave McGuire wrote: > On Sep 20, 2006, at 10:24 AM, Vaughn Treude wrote: >> PCB's UI in particular deviates from Linux norms. > >"Linux norms"?? What exactly are the UI "norms" in the Linux world? I don't think, usability of pcb suffers from deviation of some kind of official norms. Still, it helps to look how other applications GUIs handle similar problems. Some techniques have evolved over the years and proved to work better than others. Applications whose UI is rather pecular tend to loose users. I dumped qcad because of this. The latest version did a major step in this direction with the ability to zoom with the mouse wheel. (Thanks to Peter Brett, IIRC) The next basic UI feature on my wish list would be visual handles for tracks and objects. I think, I mentioned this before. Just take it as a reminder on how to make a user happy ;-) ---<(kaimartin)>--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lilalaser.de/blog ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
David Griffith schreef: [gEDA/pcb Debian/stable very old] >> That is not a problem, that is what stable is all about. > So, how can I get an up-to-date gEDA suite installed installed through > Debian's packaging scheme without switching the entire machine to unstable > and/or breaking stuff. You can not, that's what stable is all about. Maybe someone has backported gEDA/pcb to Debian/stable, but I'm not aware of it. > I tried and wound up with a mess. Maybe you can upgrade to Debian/testing? Off course, I don't know how important the stability of your PC is, so maybe that's not a good solution for you. -- Met vriendelijke groetjes - Jan Wagemakers - ... kernel: atkbd.c: Keyboard on isa0060/serio0 reports too many keys pressed. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
In fact all modern distributions use good package management systems and there is no excuse for not using one of those distros. But it is possible dat gEDA/pcb isn't present in some distributions. What I was trying to say is that IMHO the responsibility to provide good packages is the task of the distribution. I don't know other distributions very well, but in Debian it is possible to use reportbug and fill in a RFP (request for package). Maybe this is also possible in other distributions? U, the entire gEDA suite is now available as RPM packages in Fedora Extras, available for FC3, 4, 5. See here : https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/describecomponents.cgi?product=Fedora%20Extras There are also RPMs for SuSE, available here (thanks, Werner!): http://software.opensuse.org/download/home:/werner2101/ Eventually we will put links to these packages -- along with installation instructions -- onto the gEDA downloads page and into the Wiki. I haven't done it yet since I have many other, higher priority things to do. If somebody else wants to update the wiki (on their own) and create a new, improved downloads page, I will be happy to stick the downloads page into the gEDA webserver. Stuart ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
On Wed, 20 Sep 2006, Jan Wagemakers wrote: > David Griffith schreef: > > >> I make use of Debian. gEDA/pcb are included in Debian, which makes > >> installing gEDA/pcb very easy and automatic solves dependencies so that > >> software doesn't break. > > A big problem there is that the gEDA suite is dreadfully out of date for > > the stable branch. > > That is not a problem, that is what stable is all about. So, how can I get an up-to-date gEDA suite installed installed through Debian's packaging scheme without switching the entire machine to unstable and/or breaking stuff. I tried and wound up with a mess. -- David Griffith [EMAIL PROTECTED] A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
David Griffith schreef: >> I make use of Debian. gEDA/pcb are included in Debian, which makes >> installing gEDA/pcb very easy and automatic solves dependencies so that >> software doesn't break. > A big problem there is that the gEDA suite is dreadfully out of date for > the stable branch. That is not a problem, that is what stable is all about. -- Met vriendelijke groetjes - Jan Wagemakers - ... kernel: atkbd.c: Keyboard on isa0060/serio0 reports too many keys pressed. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
Ramakrishnan Muthukrishnan schreef: [install gEDA/pcb] > In fact all modern distributions use good package management systems and > there is no excuse for not using one of those distros. But it is possible dat gEDA/pcb isn't present in some distributions. What I was trying to say is that IMHO the responsibility to provide good packages is the task of the distribution. I don't know other distributions very well, but in Debian it is possible to use reportbug and fill in a RFP (request for package). Maybe this is also possible in other distributions? -- Met vriendelijke groetjes - Jan Wagemakers - ... kernel: atkbd.c: Keyboard on isa0060/serio0 reports too many keys pressed. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
On Sep 20, 2006, at 10:24 AM, Vaughn Treude wrote: PCB's UI in particular deviates from Linux norms. "Linux norms"?? What exactly are the UI "norms" in the Linux world? Please don't tell me GTK or KDE, as some of us use neither, and some of us don't even run it under Linux. (Solaris here, in particular) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
On Wed, 20 Sep 2006, Jan Wagemakers wrote: > Arthur Baldwin schreef: > > > making the install much faster and smoother for novice Linux users, and > > making sure that installing the software NEVER breaks another commonly > > used application. > > I make use of Debian. gEDA/pcb are included in Debian, which makes > installing gEDA/pcb very easy and automatic solves dependencies so that > software doesn't break. A big problem there is that the gEDA suite is dreadfully out of date for the stable branch. -- David Griffith [EMAIL PROTECTED] A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
On 9/20/06, Vaughn Treude <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: As a rank newbie to the gEDA suite, I'd like to weigh in on this. I downloaded the ISO image install of gEDA, and it went incredibly smoothly for me. I thought that bundling it all was a clever idea, because I've gone to dependency hell many times in my dealings with Linux. (And I've been into Linux since the days of Yggdrasil, if anyone remembers that.) I don't know how the install would go if I tried to do WOW! Yggdrasil -- I haven't heard that name in ages! I thought I was the only person who had ever heard of it. If I poke around a little, I'll bet I can even find the old install CD. That was fun :-) --wpd ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
On 9/20/06, Jan Wagemakers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I make use of Debian. gEDA/pcb are included in Debian, which makes installing gEDA/pcb very easy and automatic solves dependencies so that software doesn't break. I too use Debian (unstable branch which is the bleeding edge, the name is misleading, it is not all that unstable) and it had been smooth for me too. In fact all modern distributions use good package management systems and there is no excuse for not using one of those distros. -- Ramakrishnan - VU3RDD ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
Arthur Baldwin schreef: > making the install much faster and smoother for novice Linux users, and > making sure that installing the software NEVER breaks another commonly > used application. I make use of Debian. gEDA/pcb are included in Debian, which makes installing gEDA/pcb very easy and automatic solves dependencies so that software doesn't break. I don't know which distribution you use, but if gEDA is not included in your distribution you could try to ask the developers of your distribution to create a gEDA/pcb package for it, or if you have the skills you can try do it yourself. -- Met vriendelijke groetjes - Jan Wagemakers - - Debian GNU/Linux testing/unstable - Up : 68 days ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
On Tue, 2006-09-19 at 22:50, Arthur Baldwin wrote: > Hi guys, > > I've been reading this particular subject a little bit lately and I > think that it's a good idea to link other websites to your page. > However, I think there is a much more important way to increase > interest in the entire gEDA project. And that would be to focus on > further integrating the modules, making the install much faster and > smoother for novice Linux users, and making sure that installing the > software NEVER breaks another commonly used application. I have been > following the gEDA project since 1998 but have not actively promoted > it very much to my acquaintances who have a love of Electronics > Engineering...because I didn't think it was really ready for them to > use...since most of them currently use Windows and I have trouble just > getting them to "think about using Linux". I personally LOVE > Linux...and promote that as much as possible...but not gEDA...because > the installation is as much a "nightmare" as I would care to expound > upon to anyone. As a rank newbie to the gEDA suite, I'd like to weigh in on this. I downloaded the ISO image install of gEDA, and it went incredibly smoothly for me. I thought that bundling it all was a clever idea, because I've gone to dependency hell many times in my dealings with Linux. (And I've been into Linux since the days of Yggdrasil, if anyone remembers that.) I don't know how the install would go if I tried to do it piece by piece. I do know that when I updated PCB, it was easy, probably because the dependencies were already there from the bundled install. Of course, I may have just been lucky that my distro (a recent version of Centos) was relatively compatible. The only complaint I have about the install is that the target defaulted to a weird path (/usr/local/geda-install) which caused some issues later on. In my experience, the biggest problems I've had so far have been with the user interface, especially on PCB. In that sense I'll have to agree with Arthur; the integration isn't good. PCB's UI in particular deviates from Linux norms. That's somewhat understandable, because PCB predates the other "GAF" pieces. If I ever catch up on my current projects, I'd like to help with some of these issues. Vaughn T > And there is basically NO integration. Fixing these issues will get > the entire gEDA project VERY noticed by everyone. I happen to be > fully aware of its potential...and so are many other engineers...but > they are watching this project from a distance...until these issues > are addressed. Don't think I'm "picking on you"I'm not...I > believe in gEDA as probably the single most valuable project ever > undertaken in the history of the world...but its lack of adoption > centers around the issues I have pointed outnot because it isn't > known. > > Arthur > > > __ > Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com > > __ > ___ > geda-user mailing list > geda-user@moria.seul.org > http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
Hi guys, I've been reading this particular subject a little bit lately and I think that it's a good idea to link other websites to your page. However, I think there is a much more important way to increase interest in the entire gEDA project. And that would be to focus on further integrating the modules, making the install much faster and smoother for novice Linux users, and making sure that installing the software NEVER breaks another commonly used application. I have been following the gEDA project since 1998 but have not actively promoted it very much to my acquaintances who have a love of Electronics Engineering...because I didn't think it was really ready for them to use...since most of them currently use Windows and I have trouble just getting them to "think about using Linux". I personally LOVE Linux...and promote that as much as possible...but not gEDA...because the installation is as much a "nightmare" as I would care to expound upon to anyone. And there is basically NO integration. Fixing these issues will get the entire gEDA project VERY noticed by everyone. I happen to be fully aware of its potential...and so are many other engineers...but they are watching this project from a distance...until these issues are addressed. Don't think I'm "picking on you"I'm not...I believe in gEDA as probably the single most valuable project ever undertaken in the history of the world...but its lack of adoption centers around the issues I have pointed outnot because it isn't known. Arthur Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
On Tue, 19 Sep 2006, Samuel A. Falvo II wrote: > On 9/19/06, Greg Bengeult <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Why not use OpenPCB? Why abbreviate it? > > I don't like your politics! I'm going to fork -- and it shall be named > FreePCB! > > ( . . . wait for it . . . wait for it . . . ) Nononono... it's NetPCB! -- David Griffith [EMAIL PROTECTED] A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
ohhh i love the idea... this could be done with a clever hack... the hack could use google to search for pcb references and geda refferences and then send the web admin a suggestion for a change to the code. Steve meier DJ Delorie wrote: >>a hidden link >> > >Search engines are pretty smart these days. Hidden links usually >don't count at all, and may be detrimental. > >What we need to do is find all the pointers to the various pcb web >sites, and make sure they all point to *one* web page. > > >___ >geda-user mailing list >geda-user@moria.seul.org >http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user > > ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
> a hidden link Search engines are pretty smart these days. Hidden links usually don't count at all, and may be detrimental. What we need to do is find all the pointers to the various pcb web sites, and make sure they all point to *one* web page. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
Harry Eaton wrote: As far as I can tell the more links to a web site that google finds the higher that website is in the returned search list. If every one here who has a web page just added the main pcb website as a hidden link or an open link we could probably make sure that PCB comes up first. Effortwise this seems easier then figguring out a new cool cluefull politicaly correct name. Steve Meier > DJ Delorie wrote: > >>> No, but gpcb for gnu pcb might. >>> >> >> Although, are we really part of the GNU project? We can't just say >> "we're gnu!" without getting accepted by them first. >> >> >> ___ >> geda-user mailing list >> geda-user@moria.seul.org >> http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user >> >> >> > We are GNU. See http://directory.fsf.org/GNU/pcb.html which clearly I > need to get updated. > > Sorry to disappoint, but I see no reason to change the name. The 3rd > hit on Google for pcb will get you there and you can always search for > "gnu pcb" in google to bring it to the first hit. > > > > > ___ > geda-user mailing list > geda-user@moria.seul.org > http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user > ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
Samuel A. Falvo II wrote: On 9/19/06, Greg Bengeult <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Why not use OpenPCB? Why abbreviate it? I don't like your politics! I'm going to fork -- and it shall be named FreePCB! hey! That's NetPCB to you! After all Open and Free don't keep their gEDA packages/ports up to date :) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
On 9/19/06, Greg Bengeult <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Why not use OpenPCB? Why abbreviate it? I don't like your politics! I'm going to fork -- and it shall be named FreePCB! ( . . . wait for it . . . wait for it . . . ) -- Samuel A. Falvo II ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
> Djpcb, Djeda, and the slogan can be: "Mix your signals while you mix > your music, be a dj!" What about that? I don't get it. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
Em Ter 19 Set 2006 17:59, John Griessen escreveu: > I like that one too. Gnu is so militant. We're more practical, using the > library license for symbols. > > Or... > > pcbxfor xwindows or racer x > xpcbsame thing > > > It's nice and short and that's good. > Like has been mentioned before, you just add geda and pcb on the same line > and search engines "get it". > > PCB, or pcb, having a short name marks its long gestation time and being a > compilation of a lot of knowledge. That's a bragging right it has... I think the name must short, but strong, beatifull and brilliant. Like Xultz! :D I'm kidding. In my opinion pcb must be a part of gEDA, and not only a friend. If gEDA has gschem, it could have gpcb too. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
Em Ter 19 Set 2006 17:35, DJ Delorie escreveu: > > Is that anything like Caldera/SCO Open Linux? > > > > or related to the stuff at http://openeda.org ? > > There's a reason I name all my programs like "djfoo" (djboxsym, djgpp, > etc). > > (and no, we're not naming it djpcb ;) > I like it! Djpcb, Djeda, and the slogan can be: "Mix your signals while you mix your music, be a dj!" What about that? ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
> Sorry to disappoint, but I see no reason to change the name. Me, I kinda like it too. It beats calling it phlegm or placenta. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
DJ Delorie wrote: No, but gpcb for gnu pcb might. Although, are we really part of the GNU project? We can't just say "we're gnu!" without getting accepted by them first. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user We are GNU. See http://directory.fsf.org/GNU/pcb.html which clearly I need to get updated. Sorry to disappoint, but I see no reason to change the name. The 3rd hit on Google for pcb will get you there and you can always search for "gnu pcb" in google to bring it to the first hit. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
Hugo Elias wrote: Hi all, Has anyone wondered if "Pcb" might not be the best name for this program? Googling for "pcb" brings up many more irrelevant results than relevant ones. It's only a little more helpful than calling it "And". Anyone got any thoughts or suggestions for a better name? I won't change names unless harry wants to. If such a thing were to happen, I'd hope for something more creative and interesting than something like 'gpcb'. Of course, there is the issue of lots of users looking for "pcb.sf.net". -Dan ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
I like that one too. Gnu is so militant. We're more practical, using the library license for symbols. Or... pcbxfor xwindows or racer x xpcbsame thing It's nice and short and that's good. Like has been mentioned before, you just add geda and pcb on the same line and search engines "get it". PCB, or pcb, having a short name marks its long gestation time and being a compilation of a lot of knowledge. That's a bragging right it has... John G Dave N6NZ wrote: opcb? for Open PCB? ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
On Sep 19, 2006, at 4:06 PM, DJ Delorie wrote: My technical director suggested xPCB. Because apparently is has something to do with 'X'. Not when you run it under Windows ;-) *puke* -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
On Tue, 19 Sep 2006, Dave N6NZ wrote: > > > DJ Delorie wrote: > >> No, but gpcb for gnu pcb might. > > > > Although, are we really part of the GNU project? We can't just say > > "we're gnu!" without getting accepted by them first. > > Yeah, I was thinking that. > > opcb? for Open PCB? gedaboard? -- David Griffith [EMAIL PROTECTED] A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
> Is that anything like Caldera/SCO Open Linux? > > or related to the stuff at http://openeda.org ? There's a reason I name all my programs like "djfoo" (djboxsym, djgpp, etc). (and no, we're not naming it djpcb ;) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
On Tuesday 19 September 2006 16:10, Greg Bengeult wrote: > Why not use OpenPCB? Is that anything like Caldera/SCO Open Linux? or related to the stuff at http://openeda.org ? ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
> Why not use OpenPCB? Why abbreviate it? Let's call it open_source_printed_circuit_board_editor ! ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
Yeah, I was thinking that. opcb? for Open PCB? -dave Why not use OpenPCB? Why abbreviate it? ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
> My technical director suggested xPCB. Because apparently is has > something to do with 'X'. Not when you run it under Windows ;-) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
Yeah, I was thinking that. opcb? for Open PCB? -dave My technical director suggested xPCB. Because apparently is has something to do with 'X'. Hugo ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
DJ Delorie wrote: Would Gpcb for Gnome-PCB be a good idea ? No, but gpcb for gnu pcb might. However, it's Harry's project, he gets to pick the name. but this would hide that it would also work with the arena widgets Athena, not arena, and we currently support gtk and lesstif (motif), not athena. sorry, I sometimes mess up names :) but there are really quite a few widget sets out there to confuse... ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
DJ Delorie wrote: No, but gpcb for gnu pcb might. Although, are we really part of the GNU project? We can't just say "we're gnu!" without getting accepted by them first. Yeah, I was thinking that. opcb? for Open PCB? -dave ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
> No, but gpcb for gnu pcb might. Although, are we really part of the GNU project? We can't just say "we're gnu!" without getting accepted by them first. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
> Would Gpcb for Gnome-PCB be a good idea ? No, but gpcb for gnu pcb might. However, it's Harry's project, he gets to pick the name. > but this would hide that it would also work with the arena widgets Athena, not arena, and we currently support gtk and lesstif (motif), not athena. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
Hugo Elias wrote: Hi all, Has anyone wondered if "Pcb" might not be the best name for this program? Googling for "pcb" brings up many more irrelevant results than relevant ones. It's only a little more helpful than calling it "And". Anyone got any thoughts or suggestions for a better name? Hugo I am having the same problem with PCB :) but it is not the only one... Siemens calls it's High power distributors "FACTS".. you find anything if you google for those.. or think of this one proxy server called "socks", it is a pretty common thing. What usually works pretty well is the names of all the kde programs cause they usually come up with a spelling that no other human being on this earth would have come up with. Would Gpcb for Gnome-PCB be a good idea ? but this would hide that it would also work with the arena widgets but something like this would increase the hit-rate in google and the like I think ciao Florian ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
On 9/19/06, Hugo Elias <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi all, Has anyone wondered if "Pcb" might not be the best name for this program? Googling for "pcb" brings up many more Yes, I have felt the same whenever I search for stuff on google, these days I am more careful and plug in the word "geda" whenever I mean the PCB program. If at all there is a plan to change the name, I vote for gPCB. :-) -- Ramakrishnan - VU3RDD ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
Yes, I've had the same thought. Programs (and other things) that were named before the days of internet search engines may have a sub-optimal name in the current environment. -dave Hugo Elias wrote: Hi all, Has anyone wondered if "Pcb" might not be the best name for this program? Googling for "pcb" brings up many more irrelevant results than relevant ones. It's only a little more helpful than calling it "And". Anyone got any thoughts or suggestions for a better name? Hugo ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
Em Ter 19 Set 2006 14:28, Hugo Elias escreveu: > Hi all, > > Has anyone wondered if "Pcb" might not be the best name > for this program? Googling for "pcb" brings up many more > irrelevant results than relevant ones. It's only a little more > helpful than calling it "And". > > Anyone got any thoughts or suggestions for a better name? > > Hugo When my clients ask me what program I use to do my layouts, I allways say that I use "gnu-pcb" because some will think that I use Tango DOS, cause the pcb layout program is called pcb.exe. By saying "gnu-pcb", thy will understand that I dont use Tango, Protel, OrCad, or something else. IMHO, PCB is the worst name that PCB would have. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
gEDA-user: PCB a bad name ?
Hi all, Has anyone wondered if "Pcb" might not be the best name for this program? Googling for "pcb" brings up many more irrelevant results than relevant ones. It's only a little more helpful than calling it "And". Anyone got any thoughts or suggestions for a better name? Hugo ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
