Re: gEDA-user: Parts Manager Working Document
> Rather than having a component "class", explicitly subclassed in the > database to contain resistor specific attributes, I would do it similar > to the following: > > 1 "component class" / table, one size fits all. Each has a component ID. The Component ID is what I list on BOM. > 1 "attribute type class" / table, one size fits all (?) > > An entry might be: > > Attr_id 213 ... Seems to me like we are starting (re)invent an ERP system. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts Manager Working Document
On Wed, 2010-01-27 at 15:18 -0800, Edward Hennessy wrote: > --- On Wed, 1/27/10, Peter Clifton wrote: > > > Good database design dictates that the device types are not > > hard-coded > > into the data-structure, there is no explicit "resistors" > > table JOIN'd > > to drag in resistor specific data etc.. > > There really isn't a good solution for relational databases. > This article summarizes the trade-offs well: > > http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/library/ws-mapping-to-rdb/ I was more thinking along these lines.. Rather than having a component "class", explicitly subclassed in the database to contain resistor specific attributes, I would do it similar to the following: 1 "component class" / table, one size fits all. Each has a component ID. 1 "attribute type class" / table, one size fits all (?) An entry might be: Attr_id213 Attr_name "tolerance" Attr_legal_values percentage Attr_id214 Attr_name "stock_level" Attr_legal_values integer And there would be some table which mapped components and their attributes. Component_id 123123123 Component_name "foo" <-- Ok, this could be a mandatory attribute, but that is getting crazy! And the mapping: Component_id 123123123 Attr_id213 Attr_value 0.1% Component_id 123123123 Attr_id214 Attr_value 100 In this respect, you're using the database as a kind of "meta-database", where the real mapping between objects and their attributes exists within a limited number of tables. OTOH, someone can probably tell me why this is "BAD^(TM)", and how modern databases can support ad-hock addition of specialised tables and / or fields to the existing database structure. One could also envisage tables with guides to creating component classes. Component_class_id1 Component_class_name "Generic physical component" Component_class_parent_id NULL Component_class_id37 Component_class_name "Resistor" Component_class_parent_id 1 Component_class_id 1 Component_class_attr_id214 Component_class_attr_rule "Optional" ... Component_class_id 37 Component_class_attr_id213 Component_class_attr_rule "Mandatory" Anyway.. I should be working.. and I'm not. Back to it! Best wishes, Peter C. > PostgreSQL operates as both a relational and object database, > so an implementation in PostgreSQL would be much cleaner. > > I believe the options include a single table for part, or > using multiple tables for part. There are advantages and > disadvantages for either. From previous experience, I'm > in the multi-table camp. The mailing lists seem to be > gravitating to the single table implementation for reasons > of simplicity. > > I'd like to point out that the database implementation uses > views to provide logical data independence. So, the user > and applications would be relatively immune to the underlying > database structure. So, supporting both single and multiple > tables at the user's option could be done also. > > The git repository contains some of the SQL code to get the > multi-table database up and running. The sample code > probably describes the database structure better than my > working document. > > Cheers, > Ed > > > > ___ > geda-user mailing list > geda-user@moria.seul.org > http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts Manager Working Document
--- On Wed, 1/27/10, Peter Clifton wrote: > Good database design dictates that the device types are not > hard-coded > into the data-structure, there is no explicit "resistors" > table JOIN'd > to drag in resistor specific data etc.. There really isn't a good solution for relational databases. This article summarizes the trade-offs well: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/library/ws-mapping-to-rdb/ PostgreSQL operates as both a relational and object database, so an implementation in PostgreSQL would be much cleaner. I believe the options include a single table for part, or using multiple tables for part. There are advantages and disadvantages for either. From previous experience, I'm in the multi-table camp. The mailing lists seem to be gravitating to the single table implementation for reasons of simplicity. I'd like to point out that the database implementation uses views to provide logical data independence. So, the user and applications would be relatively immune to the underlying database structure. So, supporting both single and multiple tables at the user's option could be done also. The git repository contains some of the SQL code to get the multi-table database up and running. The sample code probably describes the database structure better than my working document. Cheers, Ed ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts Manager Working Document
On Tue, 2010-01-26 at 19:15 -0500, al davis wrote: > Also .. Do not make the types of electronic components (diodes, > resistors) inherent in the data base. They are just parts, and > all parts have schematic symbols, layout footprints, and > simulation models. Don't even try to make any specific device > types inherent to the database. Tagging things with device type (in a consistent way) will certainly help when you're looking for a part in the database. It needn't be relevant for simulation - if that's what you mean. Good database design dictates that the device types are not hard-coded into the data-structure, there is no explicit "resistors" table JOIN'd to drag in resistor specific data etc.. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts Manager Working Document
On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 12:29 PM, Peter Clifton wrote: > On Tue, 2010-01-19 at 08:26 -0800, Edward Hennessy wrote: >> On Jan 19, 2010, at 3:41 AM, Florian Teply wrote: >> > Anything else to add?? >> >> A few suggestions for additional parameters: There gets to be fields needed like "Can a Substitute part be used?", "Does this product require lot tracking"?, think FDA, there will always be some obscure field to add... Any parameters/category system is doomed to fail. Been-there-done-that with a warehouse of several hundred thousand parts. Many you can't figure out what category they go in, or it does not have a matching parameter so your biggest group ends up being "Miscellaneous". As someone else mentioned make adding/removing (almost never happens) fields easy. > ESD sensitivity? (Yes / No, or some scale of handling susceptibility?) All parts should be considered ESD sensitive, right down to the 1/2" metal bolt, and the 100 pound 19" rack. ESD protection should be part of the manufacturing/design culture, not an individual part consideration. There is a thread going on right now on Time-Nuts about this very subject, it will be of interest to most everyone here: http://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2010-January/044171.html > ESD sensitivity? (Yes / No, or some scale of handling susceptibility?) Moisture Sensitivity Level, MSL, is getting to be a problem with the increasingly shrinking geometries of parts and packages, and sometimes the MSL values can be darn right hard to find from manufactures. It takes very little entrapped moisture to turn the smallest of parts in to Pop-Corn when exposed to soldering temperatures. > Light sensitivity (I can imagine some parts degrading under lighting - > e.g. UV erasable EPROMS, ) All silicon based parts are light sensitive. A few diodes even point this out in their datas heets. If you ever have a project that seems like it has a gremlin in, see if the gremlin goes away when it is dark. Really fun to trouble shoot problems when the Sun only comes through the window at certain times of the day, until you make the connection. > For example - would anyone bother entering the operating temperature > range for a metal connector? (No plastic to melt). I would. For example NFPA regulations say that some of my products must work at 500'F for five minutes. Never-Say-Never... -- http://www.wearablesmartsensors.com/ http://www.softwaresafety.net/ http://www.designer-iii.com/ http://www.unusualresearch.com/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts Manager Working Document
On Friday 08 January 2010, Edward Hennessy wrote: > I created a working document for a gEDA parts manager on the > gEDA wiki. > > http://geda.seul.org/wiki/geda:gparts_dd > > If anyone has feedback or specific requirements, please > provide feedback to geda-dev or geda-user mailing > lists. I'll continue to update the document as the project > progresses. It should have "simulation models" not "spice models". Spice models are one kind of simulation model. We should not restrict it to only one, especially when other kinds are already supported by geda-related tools. For example, there are Verilog models, VHDL models, IBIS models, Spectre models, and many others. They need to be all handled on an equal basis. Also, there aren't really "spice models". There are Hspice models, Pspice models, LTspice models, ... and for spice- derivative simulators under different names, .. Eldo, multi-sim. There are often several different models available for a device. The database needs to accomodate multiple models that a user can choose from. You don't need to explicitly support anything in particular, just general models, and more than one choice. Also .. Do not make the types of electronic components (diodes, resistors) inherent in the data base. They are just parts, and all parts have schematic symbols, layout footprints, and simulation models. Don't even try to make any specific device types inherent to the database. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts Manager Working Document
On the chat, you wrote: On configuration directories, gEDA has the config directory and the data directory. The parts manager needs to locate the system-gafrc and the subdirectories for models, symbols, footprints, etc... It's not just that it has to locate *gafrc: it has to extract the data from them. These are not straightforward data files. They are in fact Guile programs that depend on functions in libgeda. A few weeks ago, I wrote a gnetlist back end to extract the data. See: http://www.seul.org/pipermail/geda-user/2009-December/022135.html Perhaps gnetlist should be called gEDAscript, as it is the general- purpose scripting wrapper around libgeda. It isn't just for netlists. Let me also express my preference for something for a simple, trivial mechanism that gets most of this job done rather that an impossible attempt to be all things to all people. The first thing you should do when designing a database is to estimate the labor required to do data entry. The gEDA community has mustered the resources to publish fewer than 3000 symbols, between the shipped library and gedasymbols.org, in ten years. That's not a complaint: I think this is actually a pretty good accomplishment (and I am extremely grateful). But the problem is huge (and changing, expanding rapidly) while the resources are orders of magnitude smaller. The mismatch is worse with your database, I think. John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ j...@noqsi.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts Manager Working Document
al davis wrote: >> On Jan 19, 2010, at 3:41 AM, Florian Teply wrote: >> > Anything else to add?? >> > > I guarantee you will leave something out, and that you will > include some useless stuff. > I totally agree here with the part of leaving something out. > Just make sure the design is such that fields can be added and > removed in the future without breaking anything. > > Same goes for device types, and lots of other stuff. I myself would suggest that those properties common to all types of passive devices mentioned in the file should be there as some sort of default setup as those are the ones most often needed, and the rest should be strictly optional. But as said, i have no idea on how to accomplish that, nevertheless i'd mention that possibility along with some example in some accompanying documentation. Just my 2 cents worth, Florian ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts Manager Working Document
On Jan 19, 2010, at 8:50 AM, al davis wrote: >> On Jan 19, 2010, at 3:41 AM, Florian Teply wrote: >>> Anything else to add?? >> > > I guarantee you will leave something out, and that you will > include some useless stuff. I agree. > Just make sure the design is such that fields can be added and > removed in the future without breaking anything. > > Same goes for device types, and lots of other stuff. The database administrator, using SQL, can add fields, remove fields, add categories, remove categories, join queries with other tables, etc... Basically, the DBA has full control. A user without SQL knowledge does not get the same level of control as the DBA. It would be difficult to give this user the same level of control as the DBA through a GUI. But, I would like to implement something for this user. Picking a couple part types, adding every parameter conceivable, then putting the data into a normal form helps flush out requirements. If the add column, remove column, add category and remove category operations can be completely defined with stored procedures or metadata, then the user without SQL knowledge is in luck. Otherwise, this user's database maybe a la carte. The user may have a set of checkboxes during database creation to define which parameters each device type contains. (The UI contains a feature to hide columns, so useless columns could always be hidden.) Cheers, Ed ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts Manager Working Document
Hi all, Peter Clifton wrote: On Tue, 2010-01-19 at 08:26 -0800, Edward Hennessy wrote: On Jan 19, 2010, at 3:41 AM, Florian Teply wrote: Anything else to add?? A few suggestions for additional parameters: - Count (for resistor arrays) - Pb-free (for RoHS and WEEE) ^^___ These relate to more than just Pb Additionally, some items are exempt, (IIRC), and are allowed to contain Pb, but still meet the spec. - Operating temperature range ESD sensitivity? (Yes / No, or some scale of handling susceptibility?) Light sensitivity (I can imagine some parts degrading under lighting - e.g. UV erasable EPROMS, ) I think it is important that any fields which obviously don't apply, should not be present in the parts database - rather than get filled with meaningless numbers. For example - would anyone bother entering the operating temperature range for a metal connector? (No plastic to melt). -- Sorry for not joining in earlier :) I have been pondering over field names to be used in the parts database and various changing search criteria as the parts categories varies. It appeared to me that for any given part there maybe a dozen or two search criteria to narrow a search down to a handful of suitable parts. So why not give field names like: "key1", "value1", "unit1", ... , "key24", "value24", "unit24". In the "key" fields we could store the criteria, in the "value" fields the values and maybe we would split the value for separate "units". This way we have a uniform table for all part categories and keep things flexible. When looking for a specific part the app then needs to walk through the parts table looking for valid "key" and "value" field contents which meet the specified search criteria and present these parts to the user. The "key" field contents need to be enumerated though and we may need to check which values are valid for a certain part category. Just my EUR 0.02 Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts Manager Working Document
On Tue, 2010-01-19 at 08:26 -0800, Edward Hennessy wrote: > On Jan 19, 2010, at 3:41 AM, Florian Teply wrote: > > Anything else to add?? > > A few suggestions for additional parameters: > > - Count (for resistor arrays) > - Pb-free (for RoHS and WEEE) ^^___ These relate to more than just Pb Additionally, some items are exempt, (IIRC), and are allowed to contain Pb, but still meet the spec. > - Operating temperature range ESD sensitivity? (Yes / No, or some scale of handling susceptibility?) Light sensitivity (I can imagine some parts degrading under lighting - e.g. UV erasable EPROMS, ) I think it is important that any fields which obviously don't apply, should not be present in the parts database - rather than get filled with meaningless numbers. For example - would anyone bother entering the operating temperature range for a metal connector? (No plastic to melt). ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts Manager Working Document
> On Jan 19, 2010, at 3:41 AM, Florian Teply wrote: > > Anything else to add?? > I guarantee you will leave something out, and that you will include some useless stuff. Just make sure the design is such that fields can be added and removed in the future without breaking anything. Same goes for device types, and lots of other stuff. v ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts Manager Working Document
On Jan 19, 2010, at 3:41 AM, Florian Teply wrote: > Anything else to add?? A few suggestions for additional parameters: - Count (for resistor arrays) - Pb-free (for RoHS and WEEE) - Operating temperature range Cheers, Ed ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts Manager Working Document
Plain text files can also be used for databases, as long as you have the correct drivers. There is an ODBC driver for text files in windows, and I've seen a database engine that used plain text files for its data stores, though I don't recall the name right now. > -Original Message- > From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org > [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Steven > Michalske > Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 11:14 PM > To: gEDA user mailing list > Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Parts Manager Working Document > > > On Jan 18, 2010, at 7:34 PM, Torsten Wagner wrote: > > > > > 2) missing components > > > At work we throw away the libraries that come with our $15K a > seat tools. :-P > > > I'm not sure how much a database would run against one > fundamental of > > gEDA, which is the nice nativley use of pure text files. If > there is a > > database, there would be a dependcy to install mysql or something > > similar, right ? > > > No SQLite would work as well, but multi user shops could use > a standard SQL based database. > > > > > If there is a part manager, please think about a very very > easy way > > to sync > > parts with official and unoffical public repositories. Maybe based > > on git or > > something like this. > > > This is a good requirement to keep in mind. > > > > ___ > geda-user mailing list > geda-user@moria.seul.org > http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user > ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts Manager Working Document
Florian Teply wrote: > Gabriel Paubert wrote: >> On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 11:05:02AM +0100, Florian Teply wrote: >>> Florian Teply wrote: >>> > On Saturday 16 January 2010 06:03:18 Edward Hennessy wrote: >>> >> On Jan 12, 2010, at 4:18 AM, Florian Teply wrote: >>> >> > I'm gonna try and make up a list of properties of components starting >>> >> > with passive devices. I'll go from very generic properties to more >>> >> > exotic ones in a way i guess will be okay with most users and put that >>> >> > list up for discussion. >>> >> >>> >> Excellent. Thanks. >>> >> >>> > No prob, was about do do that anyways as i wanted to have such database >>> > for my >>> > own use. Left it at work though, hopefully i'll have it in a state for >>> > discussion by monday afternoon. >>> > >>> Hmm, looks like i have finished said document, at least i can't think of >>> anything to add. Surely, it's not finished yet and does only cover >>> resistors, capacitors and inductors so far as i can't make up my mind >>> whether diodes should go with semiconductors or with passives... >>> Anyways, it is to be found at: >>> http://www.teply.info/gEDA/passive_properties.txt >>> Anny and all comments welcome, i'll add them to the document. >> >> Consider that some inductances that I use are not symmetric. While >> I don't know of any asymmetric resistors (but maybe they exist), >> some microwave broadband inductors are asymmetric (you can't swap >> pins 1 and 2, as for polarized capacitors): >> >> http://www.piconics.com/Conicals.html >> >> Coilcraft has similar products. >> > I knew i forgot about something i've seen in some distant past... ;-) > >> In other ways, for two terminal components, some are symmetric >> dipoles, others are asymmetric. Diodes might fall in the second >> category, but diacs might fall in the first. >> > So, one could describe that as either asymmetry or sensitivity to > direction. Gotta think about that real soon now, and will update the > document as soon as i get home, have a train to catch now... > Sheesh, that one did take a long time to appear on the list... in the meanwhile, i've already included that symmetry into the description of properties, and added variability as well as i forgot to onclude that in the first place. Variability here means a) fixed vs. trim vs. pot, as the "standard" way of variability, but it could also be seen as some sort of framework for other effects. Think dependency of value on temperature (NTC/PTC/Thermistor), on illumination (LDR, photo diode), humidity, barometric pressure or any physical entity. Anything else to add?? Greets, Florian ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts Manager Working Document
Gabriel Paubert wrote: > On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 11:05:02AM +0100, Florian Teply wrote: >> Florian Teply wrote: >> > On Saturday 16 January 2010 06:03:18 Edward Hennessy wrote: >> >> On Jan 12, 2010, at 4:18 AM, Florian Teply wrote: >> >> > I'm gonna try and make up a list of properties of components starting >> >> > with passive devices. I'll go from very generic properties to more >> >> > exotic ones in a way i guess will be okay with most users and put that >> >> > list up for discussion. >> >> >> >> Excellent. Thanks. >> >> >> > No prob, was about do do that anyways as i wanted to have such database >> > for my >> > own use. Left it at work though, hopefully i'll have it in a state for >> > discussion by monday afternoon. >> > >> Hmm, looks like i have finished said document, at least i can't think of >> anything to add. Surely, it's not finished yet and does only cover >> resistors, capacitors and inductors so far as i can't make up my mind >> whether diodes should go with semiconductors or with passives... >> Anyways, it is to be found at: >> http://www.teply.info/gEDA/passive_properties.txt >> Anny and all comments welcome, i'll add them to the document. > > Consider that some inductances that I use are not symmetric. While > I don't know of any asymmetric resistors (but maybe they exist), > some microwave broadband inductors are asymmetric (you can't swap > pins 1 and 2, as for polarized capacitors): > > http://www.piconics.com/Conicals.html > > Coilcraft has similar products. > I knew i forgot about something i've seen in some distant past... ;-) > In other ways, for two terminal components, some are symmetric > dipoles, others are asymmetric. Diodes might fall in the second > category, but diacs might fall in the first. > So, one could describe that as either asymmetry or sensitivity to direction. Gotta think about that real soon now, and will update the document as soon as i get home, have a train to catch now... Greets, Florian ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts Manager Working Document
On Jan 18, 2010, at 7:34 PM, Torsten Wagner wrote: 2) missing components At work we throw away the libraries that come with our $15K a seat tools. :-P I'm not sure how much a database would run against one fundamental of gEDA, which is the nice nativley use of pure text files. If there is a database, there would be a dependcy to install mysql or something similar, right ? No SQLite would work as well, but multi user shops could use a standard SQL based database. If there is a part manager, please think about a very very easy way to sync parts with official and unoffical public repositories. Maybe based on git or something like this. This is a good requirement to keep in mind. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts Manager Working Document
Hi, Recently, I talked with some people about EDA tools and they main arguments against gEDA were: 1) no MS-windows support 2) missing components It's very nice to see that this two topics are heavily discussed here. As for the Parts Manager I read the proposal and I like to share some thoughts. First I like the idea very much to have a central unit which scopes with all kind of different inputs for gschem and pcb. I'm not sure how much a database would run against one fundamental of gEDA, which is the nice nativley use of pure text files. If there is a database, there would be a dependcy to install mysql or something similar, right ? The second thing is about the GUI. I guess it is a good idea to have one. However, please thing about that all data should be accessable from command line resp. from scripts as well. This is one of the very nice outstanding features of gEDA and it would be a pitty if I need to start a GUI to create changes to the database over and over again instead of running a 5 liner script to do that for me. Maybe there could be even some ncurse ... I think like the analogy apt-get --- aptitude --- synaptics Furthermore, as I said the main issue for people to switch from e.g. eagle to gEDA as far as I figured out is the amount of parts. I tried to explain them that gEDA strictly seperates symbols and footprints and achive a much higher flexibility with it. However, most people stick with the idea that they like to enter the exact part-name to the list and then it should be there. If there is a part manager, please think about a very very easy way to sync parts with official and unoffical public repositories. Maybe based on git or something like this. Everyone who uses gEDA might build already some exoctic footprints. There are just not published due to lack of time and resources. A simple upload wizard and a sync option would allow everyone to upload there own footprints and symbols very easily, fixing problems and bugs and finally have access to a steadily growing database. Just my two cents.. Torsten ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts Manager Working Document
On Mon, 2010-01-18 at 22:36 +0100, Gabriel Paubert wrote: > Probably, but once again, it's a matter of turning the inductor around > at assembly time. Sure - although what I was rather indirectly getting at - is that even for passives which you might "think" you could make the two pins equivalent - there are sometimes cases where it helps to make it explicit. OTOH, I don't like having to go back and fix my schematic just because I decided to rotate a resistor on my board (so the pick + place file puts the resistors so the stripes read in the right order). Perhaps this is something fabs are smart enough to realise.. that a 0 and 180 degree noted resistor are equivalent, so its best to align left-align the start of colour bands. Best wishes, Peter C. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts Manager Working Document
On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 09:22:56AM -0500, David C. Kerber wrote: > No, I meant passives, because it's not active. I don't consider > "semiconductor" to be the opposite of "passive". > > To me, a diode fits in the groups "discrete" (vice "integrated"), "passive" > (vice "active"), and "semiconductor" (vice ???) as well, IMO. Of course, it > doesn't really matter much, as long as the decision make some sense, which > either one does. Actually, to be nitpicking, some diodes have a negative resistance region and can be used as active devices: tunnel diode oscillators (or amplifiers but they are messy with two terminal devices) anyone? And yes, I do use tunnel diodes, in bare dies actually. I bonded a couple of them last Friday, but am still fighting problems with the attachment of the backside, which is the cathode for that particular model, on the substrate with conductive (silver) epoxy. Regards, Gabriel ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts Manager Working Document
On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 02:23:16PM +, Peter Clifton wrote: > On Mon, 2010-01-18 at 14:45 +0100, Gabriel Paubert wrote: > > Consider that some inductances that I use are not symmetric. While > > I don't know of any asymmetric resistors (but maybe they exist), > > some microwave broadband inductors are asymmetric (you can't swap > > pins 1 and 2, as for polarized capacitors): > > > > http://www.piconics.com/Conicals.html > > I've never seen that kind of thing before (although I don't work in RF). That's always the case in electronics given the variety of components that are available. > > For switching power supplies etc.. the physical positioning of coils can > (sometimes) matter. Assume that given a applied current, the inductor > produces a magnetic field pattern which isn't symmetric about the axis > you can swap the component around. This could affect interference in the > circuitry if you swapped the component around. For all other inductors I've seen, it's only a matter of turning around the inductor when assembling the board. More complex inductive components like transformers are another matter of course, but I restricted myself to two terminal devices. In practice most inductors have an axis of symmetry and a radiation pattern so symmetric that the orientation does not matter; conical inductors are really different in this respect. On the other hand what I have seen with axial inductors is putting them at right angle to minimize coupling, and spacing them apart as much as possible. > Which terminal of the coil is wound innermost could affect EMC / > electrostatic coupling. (Probably a more important effect than the > previous one?) Probably, but once again, it's a matter of turning the inductor around at assembly time. Best regards, Gabriel ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts Manager Working Document
On Mon, 2010-01-18 at 14:45 +0100, Gabriel Paubert wrote: > Consider that some inductances that I use are not symmetric. While > I don't know of any asymmetric resistors (but maybe they exist), > some microwave broadband inductors are asymmetric (you can't swap > pins 1 and 2, as for polarized capacitors): > > http://www.piconics.com/Conicals.html I've never seen that kind of thing before (although I don't work in RF). For switching power supplies etc.. the physical positioning of coils can (sometimes) matter. Assume that given a applied current, the inductor produces a magnetic field pattern which isn't symmetric about the axis you can swap the component around. This could affect interference in the circuitry if you swapped the component around. Which terminal of the coil is wound innermost could affect EMC / electrostatic coupling. (Probably a more important effect than the previous one?) Best regards, Peter C. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts Manager Working Document
No, I meant passives, because it's not active. I don't consider "semiconductor" to be the opposite of "passive". To me, a diode fits in the groups "discrete" (vice "integrated"), "passive" (vice "active"), and "semiconductor" (vice ???) as well, IMO. Of course, it doesn't really matter much, as long as the decision make some sense, which either one does. D > -Original Message- > From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org > [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Peter Clifton > Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 9:10 AM > To: gEDA user mailing list > Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Parts Manager Working Document > > On Mon, 2010-01-18 at 08:49 -0500, David C. Kerber wrote: > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org > > > [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of > Florian Teply > > > > ... > > > > > Hmm, looks like i have finished said document, at least i can't > > > think of anything to add. Surely, it's not finished yet and does > > > only cover resistors, capacitors and inductors so far as i can't > > > make up my mind whether diodes should go with > semiconductors or with > > > passives... > > > > Passives. > > I disagree here.. they definitely aren't passive. Are you > thinking of "discrete"? > > Since they almost certainly are semiconductors inside, put > them in semiconductors - and sub-categories. > > Farnell classifies them as: > > Semiconductors - Discretes - Diodes - *** > > Where *** is one of: > > Current regulator > Rectifier Array > Rectifiers Single > RF > Small Signal > Variable Capacitance (varicaps, varactors) Zenner array Zenner single > > > (I know technically you might have a thermionic device too > though, but even Farnell puts those under Semiconductors) > > > > ___ > geda-user mailing list > geda-user@moria.seul.org > http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user > ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts Manager Working Document
On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 11:05:02AM +0100, Florian Teply wrote: > Florian Teply wrote: > > On Saturday 16 January 2010 06:03:18 Edward Hennessy wrote: > >> On Jan 12, 2010, at 4:18 AM, Florian Teply wrote: > >> > I'm gonna try and make up a list of properties of components starting > >> > with passive devices. I'll go from very generic properties to more > >> > exotic ones in a way i guess will be okay with most users and put that > >> > list up for discussion. > >> > >> Excellent. Thanks. > >> > > No prob, was about do do that anyways as i wanted to have such database for > > my > > own use. Left it at work though, hopefully i'll have it in a state for > > discussion by monday afternoon. > > > Hmm, looks like i have finished said document, at least i can't think of > anything to add. Surely, it's not finished yet and does only cover > resistors, capacitors and inductors so far as i can't make up my mind > whether diodes should go with semiconductors or with passives... > Anyways, it is to be found at: > http://www.teply.info/gEDA/passive_properties.txt > Anny and all comments welcome, i'll add them to the document. Consider that some inductances that I use are not symmetric. While I don't know of any asymmetric resistors (but maybe they exist), some microwave broadband inductors are asymmetric (you can't swap pins 1 and 2, as for polarized capacitors): http://www.piconics.com/Conicals.html Coilcraft has similar products. In other ways, for two terminal components, some are symmetric dipoles, others are asymmetric. Diodes might fall in the second category, but diacs might fall in the first. Regards, Gabriel ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts Manager Working Document
On Mon, 2010-01-18 at 08:49 -0500, David C. Kerber wrote: > > > -Original Message- > > From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org > > [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Florian Teply > > ... > > > Hmm, looks like i have finished said document, at least i > > can't think of anything to add. Surely, it's not finished yet > > and does only cover resistors, capacitors and inductors so > > far as i can't make up my mind whether diodes should go with > > semiconductors or with passives... > > Passives. I disagree here.. they definitely aren't passive. Are you thinking of "discrete"? Since they almost certainly are semiconductors inside, put them in semiconductors - and sub-categories. Farnell classifies them as: Semiconductors - Discretes - Diodes - *** Where *** is one of: Current regulator Rectifier Array Rectifiers Single RF Small Signal Variable Capacitance (varicaps, varactors) Zenner array Zenner single (I know technically you might have a thermionic device too though, but even Farnell puts those under Semiconductors) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts Manager Working Document
> -Original Message- > From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org > [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Florian Teply ... > Hmm, looks like i have finished said document, at least i > can't think of anything to add. Surely, it's not finished yet > and does only cover resistors, capacitors and inductors so > far as i can't make up my mind whether diodes should go with > semiconductors or with passives... Passives. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts Manager Working Document
Florian Teply wrote: > On Saturday 16 January 2010 06:03:18 Edward Hennessy wrote: >> On Jan 12, 2010, at 4:18 AM, Florian Teply wrote: >> > I'm gonna try and make up a list of properties of components starting >> > with passive devices. I'll go from very generic properties to more >> > exotic ones in a way i guess will be okay with most users and put that >> > list up for discussion. >> >> Excellent. Thanks. >> > No prob, was about do do that anyways as i wanted to have such database for > my > own use. Left it at work though, hopefully i'll have it in a state for > discussion by monday afternoon. > Hmm, looks like i have finished said document, at least i can't think of anything to add. Surely, it's not finished yet and does only cover resistors, capacitors and inductors so far as i can't make up my mind whether diodes should go with semiconductors or with passives... Anyways, it is to be found at: http://www.teply.info/gEDA/passive_properties.txt Anny and all comments welcome, i'll add them to the document. Greets, Florian ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts Manager Working Document
On Saturday 16 January 2010 06:03:18 Edward Hennessy wrote: > On Jan 12, 2010, at 4:18 AM, Florian Teply wrote: > > Just as it enters my mind: This parts manager is essentially a > > hierarchical parts database. I could imagine that some guys would want > > to integrate other stuff like inventory, preferred dealers, pricing, > > dealer part numbers and such. On the other hand, not everyone might want > > to carry all that stuff around. > > Yes. These would be well within the capability of the parts manager. > It would require someone with database knowledge to alter tables and > change the database views. The changes would happen in the views and > stored procedures in the database. A limitation exists that it could > not make multi-database queries. So if inventory is in Oracle and > parts are in MySQL, something else will need to be done. > > > If i had such a database around, i'd love to be able to search it > > according to current needs, grouping transistors by their beta and > > current noise for example. But for that, numerical values will have to > > be present which in turn have to be entered. This sounds like a task to > > be distributed to many guys... > > The parts manager uses SQL at the core so creating a new view to your > transistors that contained sorting, grouping, or selecting ranges > would still work. The GUI would simply display the results from a > query to your view. > > I was planning on making a small Python app to import data from > a couple of my favorite manufacturers. Unfortunately, not all > manufacturers provide a feature to export part data. > > > Is there a possibility to keep the database modular? > > Can you elaborate? Do you mean modules with different types of parts, > different database features, or different schemas? These requirements > would be a good addition to the working document. > I was basically thinking along the lines of having stuff optional. Like vendors, pricing, such stuff not everyone would want. As i see it, with a SQL database that shouldn't be much of a problem, so nothing to worry about. > > Anyways, as Kai-Martin already mentioned: what do YOU think is the > > purpose of this parts manager within gEDA?? > > It basically allows the engineer to cut and paste components into > their schematic without the burden of looking up and setting all the > attributes. So if an engineer wants a 4.75k 1% 0603, they can choose > it from a list, cut, then paste. The parts manager can substitute the > component attributes needed for purchasing, simulation, and layout. > > > In order to have a clean layout, i feel it might be wise to step back > > again for the broad picture to reappear. > > Is there a particular area where you have a concern? > I was referring to my nearly constant state of being lost ;-) It does clear up though, even if slowly. > > I'm gonna try and make up a list of properties of components starting > > with passive devices. I'll go from very generic properties to more > > exotic ones in a way i guess will be okay with most users and put that > > list up for discussion. > > Excellent. Thanks. > No prob, was about do do that anyways as i wanted to have such database for my own use. Left it at work though, hopefully i'll have it in a state for discussion by monday afternoon. Greets, Florian ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts Manager Working Document
Florian Teply wrote: Edward Hennessy wrote: Florian, Thanks for the feedback. I'll add support for simulation models, but I'll need to do a bit more research on how the database columns map to symbol attributes. Just as it enters my mind: This parts manager is essentially a hierarchical parts database. I could imagine that some guys would want to integrate other stuff like inventory, preferred dealers, pricing, dealer part numbers and such. On the other hand, not everyone might want to carry all that stuff around. If i had such a database around, i'd love to be able to search it according to current needs, grouping transistors by their beta and current noise for example. But for that, numerical values will have to be present which in turn have to be entered. This sounds like a task to be distributed to many guys... Is there a possibility to keep the database modular? I've been learning Django, a python language web serving framework, and from newbie impressions, it might be a good fit for your app if you want to depend on some standardised work with a large following, (so it's fast evolving). Django talks to databases and serves up templated web interfaces to database driven apps you write in python, with a lot of help from the Django functions and admin interface. Sharing the load of work with others is easy with Django, (or any web CMS). John -- Ecosensory Austin TX ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts Manager Working Document
On Jan 11, 2010, at 2:02 AM, Kai-Martin Knaak wrote: > Can you elaborate a bit? > What exactly is the parts manager supposed to do? > How will/should it integrate with gschem/gsch2pcb/pcb ? I added a bit more description to the working document including a graphic showing the integration. http://geda.seul.org/wiki/geda:gparts_dd Cheers, Ed ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts Manager Working Document
On Jan 12, 2010, at 4:18 AM, Florian Teply wrote: > Just as it enters my mind: This parts manager is essentially a > hierarchical parts database. I could imagine that some guys would want > to integrate other stuff like inventory, preferred dealers, pricing, > dealer part numbers and such. On the other hand, not everyone might want > to carry all that stuff around. Yes. These would be well within the capability of the parts manager. It would require someone with database knowledge to alter tables and change the database views. The changes would happen in the views and stored procedures in the database. A limitation exists that it could not make multi-database queries. So if inventory is in Oracle and parts are in MySQL, something else will need to be done. > If i had such a database around, i'd love to be able to search it > according to current needs, grouping transistors by their beta and > current noise for example. But for that, numerical values will have to > be present which in turn have to be entered. This sounds like a task to > be distributed to many guys... The parts manager uses SQL at the core so creating a new view to your transistors that contained sorting, grouping, or selecting ranges would still work. The GUI would simply display the results from a query to your view. I was planning on making a small Python app to import data from a couple of my favorite manufacturers. Unfortunately, not all manufacturers provide a feature to export part data. > Is there a possibility to keep the database modular? Can you elaborate? Do you mean modules with different types of parts, different database features, or different schemas? These requirements would be a good addition to the working document. > Anyways, as Kai-Martin already mentioned: what do YOU think is the > purpose of this parts manager within gEDA?? It basically allows the engineer to cut and paste components into their schematic without the burden of looking up and setting all the attributes. So if an engineer wants a 4.75k 1% 0603, they can choose it from a list, cut, then paste. The parts manager can substitute the component attributes needed for purchasing, simulation, and layout. > In order to have a clean layout, i feel it might be wise to step back > again for the broad picture to reappear. Is there a particular area where you have a concern? > I'm gonna try and make up a list of properties of components starting > with passive devices. I'll go from very generic properties to more > exotic ones in a way i guess will be okay with most users and put that > list up for discussion. Excellent. Thanks. Cheers, Ed ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts Manager Working Document
Edward Hennessy wrote: > Florian, > > Thanks for the feedback. > > On Jan 9, 2010, at 3:30 AM, Florian Teply wrote: >> a) There seems to be a link between part and document missing. Documents are >> completely described, but never referenced. > > I created an ERD and put it in the working document. > Ah, thanks, that clears things up a bit. >> b) Symbol: according to the picture, it should contain a SymbolName, but >> according to the Text it's supposed to contain a Symbol filename. This seems >> to be a slight inconsistency, i myself would maybe include both a filename >> and >> a textual name for display which could also be a tad more verbose. Example: >> Filename: 7400-1.sym >> SymbolName: 7400, Quad NAND >> After a closer look, nearly the same goes for footprints: Graphics call for >> a >> unique name, text calls for a path. > > Thanks for pointing out the inconsistency. I had blindly just suffixed > surrogate > keys with "ID" and their human readable counterparts with "name." I'll fix > the > document. > > Should the description be associated with the part, because a 74AS00, > 74ALS00, 74LS00 could use the same symbol? > > Or, the parts manager could extract the description attribute from the symbol > file > during import for a generic description and place it in the field you > describe. The > description in the 7400-1.sym: > > description=4 NAND gates with 2 inputs > > Or, the parts manager could do both, but on component instantiation, use the > description from the part table? > I myself am unsure about that as well. Even though all those 74xx00 do serve the same logic and are represented by the same symbol, their behaviour is somewhat different due to their internal structure. Substantially different in terms of timing, output driving capabilities, and maybe more. It all depends on the verbosity of the description. One might want to go for a generic description on the 74xx00 level and an additional description for a, say 74HC00, telling it's High-Speed CMOS. >> c) What i'm missing is models. That could very well be grouped with >> documents, >> entries being something like: >> ModelID >> Category (Spice, VHDL, VHDL-AMS, Verilog, Verilog-AMS etc.) >> Description (Textual, more verbose) >> SourceURL >> FileLocation (path) > > I'll add support for simulation models, but I'll need to do a bit more > research on > how the database columns map to symbol attributes. > Just as it enters my mind: This parts manager is essentially a hierarchical parts database. I could imagine that some guys would want to integrate other stuff like inventory, preferred dealers, pricing, dealer part numbers and such. On the other hand, not everyone might want to carry all that stuff around. If i had such a database around, i'd love to be able to search it according to current needs, grouping transistors by their beta and current noise for example. But for that, numerical values will have to be present which in turn have to be entered. This sounds like a task to be distributed to many guys... Is there a possibility to keep the database modular? Anyways, as Kai-Martin already mentioned: what do YOU think is the purpose of this parts manager within gEDA?? In order to have a clean layout, i feel it might be wise to step back again for the broad picture to reappear. I'm gonna try and make up a list of properties of components starting with passive devices. I'll go from very generic properties to more exotic ones in a way i guess will be okay with most users and put that list up for discussion. Greetings, Florian ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts Manager Working Document
On Mon, 11 Jan 2010 10:02:07 +, Kai-Martin Knaak wrote: > What exactly is the parts manager supposed to do? How will/should it > integrate with gschem/gsch2pcb/pcb ? I just read the description in the "blue sky ideas" thread. No need to post it to the list again. ---<(kaimartin)>--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x6C0B9F53 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts Manager Working Document
On Fri, 08 Jan 2010 18:43:13 -0800, Edward Hennessy wrote: > I created a working document for a gEDA parts manager on the gEDA wiki. Can you elaborate a bit? What exactly is the parts manager supposed to do? How will/should it integrate with gschem/gsch2pcb/pcb ? ---<(kaimartin)>--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak tel: +49-511-762-2895 Universität Hannover, Inst. für Quantenoptik fax: +49-511-762-2211 Welfengarten 1, 30167 Hannover http://www.iqo.uni-hannover.de GPG key:http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?search=Knaak+kmk&op=get ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts Manager Working Document
Florian, Thanks for the feedback. On Jan 9, 2010, at 3:30 AM, Florian Teply wrote: a) There seems to be a link between part and document missing. Documents are completely described, but never referenced. I created an ERD and put it in the working document. b) Symbol: according to the picture, it should contain a SymbolName, but according to the Text it's supposed to contain a Symbol filename. This seems to be a slight inconsistency, i myself would maybe include both a filename and a textual name for display which could also be a tad more verbose. Example: Filename: 7400-1.sym SymbolName: 7400, Quad NAND After a closer look, nearly the same goes for footprints: Graphics call for a unique name, text calls for a path. Thanks for pointing out the inconsistency. I had blindly just suffixed surrogate keys with "ID" and their human readable counterparts with "name." I'll fix the document. Should the description be associated with the part, because a 74AS00, 74ALS00, 74LS00 could use the same symbol? Or, the parts manager could extract the description attribute from the symbol file during import for a generic description and place it in the field you describe. The description in the 7400-1.sym: description=4 NAND gates with 2 inputs Or, the parts manager could do both, but on component instantiation, use the description from the part table? c) What i'm missing is models. That could very well be grouped with documents, entries being something like: ModelID Category (Spice, VHDL, VHDL-AMS, Verilog, Verilog-AMS etc.) Description (Textual, more verbose) SourceURL FileLocation (path) I'll add support for simulation models, but I'll need to do a bit more research on how the database columns map to symbol attributes. Cheers, Ed ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts Manager Working Document
On Saturday 09 January 2010 03:43:13 Edward Hennessy wrote: > All, > > I created a working document for a gEDA parts manager on the gEDA wiki. > > http://geda.seul.org/wiki/geda:gparts_dd > > If anyone has feedback or specific requirements, please provide feedback to > geda-dev or geda-user mailing lists. I'll continue to update the document > as the project progresses. > Nice Overview, Ed. From my point of view, some things seem to be missing though, which wasn't unexpected given the preliminary/working state of the document. a) There seems to be a link between part and document missing. Documents are completely described, but never referenced. b) Symbol: according to the picture, it should contain a SymbolName, but according to the Text it's supposed to contain a Symbol filename. This seems to be a slight inconsistency, i myself would maybe include both a filename and a textual name for display which could also be a tad more verbose. Example: Filename: 7400-1.sym SymbolName: 7400, Quad NAND After a closer look, nearly the same goes for footprints: Graphics call for a unique name, text calls for a path. c) What i'm missing is models. That could very well be grouped with documents, entries being something like: ModelID Category (Spice, VHDL, VHDL-AMS, Verilog, Verilog-AMS etc.) Description (Textual, more verbose) SourceURL FileLocation (path) Given my lack of knowledge of Database design, i would appreciate some graphical representation of the relations between all those entries, as i'm not quite sure how one entry belongs to another. I tried to draw that up as i understand it, but got utterly lost in the relationship between part, class, component and device. Greets, Florian signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
gEDA-user: Parts Manager Working Document
All, I created a working document for a gEDA parts manager on the gEDA wiki. http://geda.seul.org/wiki/geda:gparts_dd If anyone has feedback or specific requirements, please provide feedback to geda-dev or geda-user mailing lists. I'll continue to update the document as the project progresses. Cheers, Ed ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts!
Joerg wrote: > > > Yes, that could be done but requires the user to be more diligent. Or > some warning mechanism like "You cannot start this name with D2PAK". > PCB must already have code somewhere to tell when polygons intersect, which suggests that code could be written to tell if two footprints were "roughly equivalent". Then the system could scour footprint specifications to find similar ones, regardless of their name. Point is, once the system determined that you had an 0603-packaged device, it might be able to then identify "compatible" footprint specifications for the part that already exist, and allow you to select between them. And one way to for the system to learn that you were referring to an 0603-packaged device would be for someone to tell it how to decode part numbers. For example, Xircon's resistors have names like "301-30-RC" (1/16W 5% 0603 chip resistor), so if someone created/specified a device with that or a similar part number, it would hit on some magic token that would then be map-able to 0603-compatible footprint specifications. A better example might be the MAX232, or nearly anything that begins with "MAX": if it ends in CPE+, then it's a 16-pin PDIP part. Not sure if that's universally true, but hopefully you get the idea of what I'm talking about. Yea, it's a few layers of indirection. To say the least. :) b.g. -- Bill Gatliff b...@billgatliff.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts!
Bill Gatliff wrote: > Levente Kovacs wrote: >> OK. I understand, but I guess it doesn't worth the trouble to implement such >> complicated stuff. To be honest, I don't see why one would combine some >> device >> coming in different packages into one part. > > A lot of 7400 stuff is the same device (quad 2-input NAND), available in > PDIP and SOIC. > ... plus TSSOP and QFN :-) -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts!
DJ Delorie wrote: >> That is what most CAD systems do. Usually you can't select farther down >> than footprint, like "oh, I want one with the solder mask tucked some >> more". > > Well, real needs would be like: axial resistor: 0.4" vs 0.5" vs 0.6" > spacing, TO-220 standing up or laying down, or the 0603[LMN] > differences. The last is probably project-wide, but the others depend > on the specific layout of that part. > >> That would require making a new footprint with a new name to it. > > Ah, but if we're clever with the names, PCB would know how to group > alternative footprints that are for the "same" package. > Yes, that could be done but requires the user to be more diligent. Or some warning mechanism like "You cannot start this name with D2PAK". >> This would be leather seats plus champagne cooler :-) > > Well, yeah, but it's a goal, not the "next step". I often want to > swap gate pins (or memory addr/data pins) in pcb to make the layout > work. Putting that functionality in gschem is useless; ... Not useless. When doing analog stuff you often take a 2nd look and say to yourself "I think the phase noise cancels better if I swap U14B and U27C and re-shuffle the mixer drivers over there". Probably that's why Eagle (schematic) can do that. But it's not that hard to shove those around by hand so it would not be significant if gschem can't do it. > ... gschem doesn't know what the layout looks like. > No, but the guy sitting in front of it hopefully does :-) >>> footprint class (or specific) -> slotting(numbering) -> gschem >>> (this is done in pcb) >> That part would IMHO only make sense if or after the broken annotation >> and power pin issue gets resolved. > > That too. > >>> For SOP footprints, for example, we could "outline around pads" and >>> "outline between pads" options, or project-specific alternatives like >>> "extra clearance". >>> >> Nice, but it doesn't have to go that far. Most people are used to >> making special footprints. Like one for Rogers, one for FR4 and >> maybe one for the super-saver phenolic projects, then keep >> using them all the time. > > All the more reason to have PCB give you a way to select among them > for "that package type". > Don't get me wrong, I think the idea is great. It's just that there are more pressing issues, like annotation. Just my 2c, only meant as input. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts!
> That is what most CAD systems do. Usually you can't select farther down > than footprint, like "oh, I want one with the solder mask tucked some > more". Well, real needs would be like: axial resistor: 0.4" vs 0.5" vs 0.6" spacing, TO-220 standing up or laying down, or the 0603[LMN] differences. The last is probably project-wide, but the others depend on the specific layout of that part. > That would require making a new footprint with a new name to it. Ah, but if we're clever with the names, PCB would know how to group alternative footprints that are for the "same" package. > This would be leather seats plus champagne cooler :-) Well, yeah, but it's a goal, not the "next step". I often want to swap gate pins (or memory addr/data pins) in pcb to make the layout work. Putting that functionality in gschem is useless; gschem doesn't know what the layout looks like. > > footprint class (or specific) -> slotting(numbering) -> gschem > > (this is done in pcb) > > That part would IMHO only make sense if or after the broken annotation > and power pin issue gets resolved. That too. > > For SOP footprints, for example, we could "outline around pads" and > > "outline between pads" options, or project-specific alternatives like > > "extra clearance". > > > > Nice, but it doesn't have to go that far. Most people are used to > making special footprints. Like one for Rogers, one for FR4 and > maybe one for the super-saver phenolic projects, then keep > using them all the time. All the more reason to have PCB give you a way to select among them for "that package type". ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts!
DJ Delorie wrote: > Way back when, when I use cadstar, what they did was have multiple > alternatives within each symbol and footprint. So, the mapping was > generic part -> generic symbol -> alternative, and generic part -> > specific part -> footprint. ... That is what most CAD systems do. Usually you can't select farther down than footprint, like "oh, I want one with the solder mask tucked some more". That would require making a new footprint with a new name to it. Then in programs like Eagle this new footprint must also be assigned to a part or it won't show up in the footprint selector for that part. > ... This thread makes me think we need to > allow for footprint alternatives in pcb, so it would be: > > generic symbol -> alternatives (positive vs negative logic, orientation, > design, etc) > > generic symbol -> generic part > > generic part -> specific parts (manufacturer?) > (note: this does symbolic pins -> numbered pins too) > > specific part -> slotting(grouping) -> gschem (this is done in gschem) > specific part -> footprint class -> specific footprint > > specific part -> vendor, costs, inventory, etc. > This would be leather seats plus champagne cooler :-) > footprint class (or specific) -> slotting(numbering) -> gschem (this is done > in pcb) > That part would IMHO only make sense if or after the broken annotation and power pin issue gets resolved. > For SOP footprints, for example, we could "outline around pads" and > "outline between pads" options, or project-specific alternatives like > "extra clearance". > Nice, but it doesn't have to go that far. Most people are used to making special footprints. Like one for Rogers, one for FR4 and maybe one for the super-saver phenolic projects, then keep using them all the time. When I ask my layouter to make a change because of high voltage or something he just creates a whole new footprint and calls it joerg_d2pak or whatever. It doesn't consume much of his time because he cuts and pastes from the standard one. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts!
Levente Kovacs wrote: > > OK. I understand, but I guess it doesn't worth the trouble to implement such > complicated stuff. To be honest, I don't see why one would combine some device > coming in different packages into one part. A lot of 7400 stuff is the same device (quad 2-input NAND), available in PDIP and SOIC. -- Bill Gatliff b...@billgatliff.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts!
Way back when, when I use cadstar, what they did was have multiple alternatives within each symbol and footprint. So, the mapping was generic part -> generic symbol -> alternative, and generic part -> specific part -> footprint. This thread makes me think we need to allow for footprint alternatives in pcb, so it would be: generic symbol -> alternatives (positive vs negative logic, orientation, design, etc) generic symbol -> generic part generic part -> specific parts (manufacturer?) (note: this does symbolic pins -> numbered pins too) specific part -> slotting(grouping) -> gschem (this is done in gschem) specific part -> footprint class -> specific footprint specific part -> vendor, costs, inventory, etc. footprint class (or specific) -> slotting(numbering) -> gschem (this is done in pcb) For SOP footprints, for example, we could "outline around pads" and "outline between pads" options, or project-specific alternatives like "extra clearance". ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts!
Levente Kovacs wrote: > On Fri, 15 May 2009 13:32:12 -0500 > Bill Gatliff wrote: > >> I think we're in violent agreement, but might be talking about subtly >> separate things. >> >> A given device e.g. a particular transistor may be available in one >> or more specific physical _packages_, i.e. TO220, DPAK, etc. If you >> had a collection of such devices in different packages, then they'd >> be different part numbers--- but you'd probably capture the basic >> name of the transistor device in the description fields of your >> database i.e. "2N7002", "n-channel", "transistor" so you could later >> ask for "a transistor in a TO200 package, any vendor". You'd have >> two or more rows with that same description (hence the need for a >> description convention), each of which differed only by the package >> and part number for the device(s) you bought. >> >> There are several PCB layout _footprints_ that are compatible with a >> TO220 _package_, but that's information that's tied to a specific >> part number only through what package the device referred to by that >> part number came in. PCB doesn't care that it's a 2N7002, or even >> that it's in a TO220 package--- it just wants to know what footprint >> you want, and you want to make sure that the footprint that you tell >> it to use will actually work with the package the physical device >> came in. >> >> So your device table needs a package field, which reflects the actual >> physical package the device came to you in. Then you need another >> table that maps package types to compatible layout footprints. Then >> you select from that list of footprints based on the characteristics >> of your circuit board. >> >> (Actually, since Fairchild has their own naming conventions for >> packages, which will be different names but the same physical >> characteristics as those offered by other vendors, you might want the >> schema to be slightly more complicated than the above. You could >> even have a schema that fills in some of the package and other >> information for you based on the header and footer of the part >> number. But I digress). > > > OK. I understand, but I guess it doesn't worth the trouble to implement such > complicated stuff. To be honest, I don't see why one would combine some device > coming in different packages into one part. I've seen some commercial > implementation of this, but we rarely used it. I have one example in my mind. > It's the IRF540 hexfet. It is in TO220, but there is a DPAK2 package. I think > we could live with it if it was two different part, or whatever we call it. > > On the other hand however, I have a few footprint variant so far for certain > packages. With the current architecture, I don't know how could we implement > a footprint selector at gschem level. Maybe my dbsym_update could be > interactive... but it is awkward. > Eagle has a footprint selector. It is nice and useful if you find out the board ain't going to fit and then change most resistors from 0804 to 0603. But other than that it's dangerous. For example in your example above the part number must be different. The TO220 version is IRF540NPBF while the D2PAK is IRF540NSTRR. If you don't have that properly embedded the BOM will be wrong, purchasing buys the wrong parts, the boss gets red in the face, and things aren't looking up. In very regulated industries you can't even do the swap with passive parts. [...] -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts!
On Fri, 15 May 2009 13:32:12 -0500 Bill Gatliff wrote: > I think we're in violent agreement, but might be talking about subtly > separate things. > > A given device e.g. a particular transistor may be available in one > or more specific physical _packages_, i.e. TO220, DPAK, etc. If you > had a collection of such devices in different packages, then they'd > be different part numbers--- but you'd probably capture the basic > name of the transistor device in the description fields of your > database i.e. "2N7002", "n-channel", "transistor" so you could later > ask for "a transistor in a TO200 package, any vendor". You'd have > two or more rows with that same description (hence the need for a > description convention), each of which differed only by the package > and part number for the device(s) you bought. > > There are several PCB layout _footprints_ that are compatible with a > TO220 _package_, but that's information that's tied to a specific > part number only through what package the device referred to by that > part number came in. PCB doesn't care that it's a 2N7002, or even > that it's in a TO220 package--- it just wants to know what footprint > you want, and you want to make sure that the footprint that you tell > it to use will actually work with the package the physical device > came in. > > So your device table needs a package field, which reflects the actual > physical package the device came to you in. Then you need another > table that maps package types to compatible layout footprints. Then > you select from that list of footprints based on the characteristics > of your circuit board. > > (Actually, since Fairchild has their own naming conventions for > packages, which will be different names but the same physical > characteristics as those offered by other vendors, you might want the > schema to be slightly more complicated than the above. You could > even have a schema that fills in some of the package and other > information for you based on the header and footer of the part > number. But I digress). OK. I understand, but I guess it doesn't worth the trouble to implement such complicated stuff. To be honest, I don't see why one would combine some device coming in different packages into one part. I've seen some commercial implementation of this, but we rarely used it. I have one example in my mind. It's the IRF540 hexfet. It is in TO220, but there is a DPAK2 package. I think we could live with it if it was two different part, or whatever we call it. On the other hand however, I have a few footprint variant so far for certain packages. With the current architecture, I don't know how could we implement a footprint selector at gschem level. Maybe my dbsym_update could be interactive... but it is awkward. > >> I don't think you are using your schema very effectively, > >> however. I think your description field should at most contain > >> the word "resistor", since you are capturing things like footprint > >> and value in other fields. > > > > That is why I have the category and subcategory tables. > > > > Yup. But I'd give them more specific names, so that you don't miss a > search because the "resistor" was in a field other than the one you > searched in, perhaps due to an entry error. It's a taxonomy thing. Yup. That is why it would be nice to have some UI, which looked up the category and subcategory fields to names, and you have the "resistor" string. Or at least, I planned so. > > Well well. This system is still a "quick and dirty hack"... :-) > > What you can do is a query for category=1, subcategory=1, > > value=10R. That is what I do day by day. However, you are probably > > right. This is my first SQL database, and one may see that I don't > > have experience with it. :-) > > Me neither. I've done only two or three myself, but I've looked over > a lot of shoulders and had to deal with a lot of databases that > weren't set up to my liking. :) > > > > The next step with this system is to write some (G)UI for those > > tables. I usually use the phpmyadmin interface. It is OK, but could > > be better. Or even better... integrate it in gschem. > > > > Gschem and PCB could both incorporate sqlite, and then we could set > up a community database somewhere that as we bought parts we could > enter the part numbers/packages information into. And then as we > created footprints, we could put those into another database. Then > later on, when I had a particular part number (perhaps from a > device=) then a tool could show me a list of compatible, predefined > footprints. > Kind of like a next-generation version of what gedasymbols already > is. Or could be. > > > Any volunteers? :-) > > > > Not me! I'm more of an "idea guy", especially when it comes to > databases. :) > > I would be happy to supply the IP address, however. :-) > b.g. > > -- > Bill Gatliff > b...@billgatliff.com > > > > ___
Re: gEDA-user: Parts!
Levente wrote: > Bill Gatliff wrote: > [...] > >> Gosh, I think it almost does. You have a footprint column in your >> device table, and it seems as though only one footprint would apply to a >> specific device--- an 0603 resistor is always going to use the 0603 >> footprint. So if you had resistors with other footprints, they'd be >> different entries in the table, right? >> > > Right. Wrong! What about a TO220 transistor? You have standing and > laying version, I do have an SMD version too. You may have a footprint > for other technologies of soldering... such as reflow, wave, etc. You > may have different resist opening version... etc. I think it might be a > good idea to have a separate footprint table for footprint variants. > I think we're in violent agreement, but might be talking about subtly separate things. A given device e.g. a particular transistor may be available in one or more specific physical _packages_, i.e. TO220, DPAK, etc. If you had a collection of such devices in different packages, then they'd be different part numbers--- but you'd probably capture the basic name of the transistor device in the description fields of your database i.e. "2N7002", "n-channel", "transistor" so you could later ask for "a transistor in a TO200 package, any vendor". You'd have two or more rows with that same description (hence the need for a description convention), each of which differed only by the package and part number for the device(s) you bought. There are several PCB layout _footprints_ that are compatible with a TO220 _package_, but that's information that's tied to a specific part number only through what package the device referred to by that part number came in. PCB doesn't care that it's a 2N7002, or even that it's in a TO220 package--- it just wants to know what footprint you want, and you want to make sure that the footprint that you tell it to use will actually work with the package the physical device came in. So your device table needs a package field, which reflects the actual physical package the device came to you in. Then you need another table that maps package types to compatible layout footprints. Then you select from that list of footprints based on the characteristics of your circuit board. (Actually, since Fairchild has their own naming conventions for packages, which will be different names but the same physical characteristics as those offered by other vendors, you might want the schema to be slightly more complicated than the above. You could even have a schema that fills in some of the package and other information for you based on the header and footer of the part number. But I digress). >> I don't think you are using your schema very effectively, however. I >> think your description field should at most contain the word "resistor", >> since you are capturing things like footprint and value in other fields. >> > > That is why I have the category and subcategory tables. > Yup. But I'd give them more specific names, so that you don't miss a search because the "resistor" was in a field other than the one you searched in, perhaps due to an entry error. It's a taxonomy thing. > Well well. This system is still a "quick and dirty hack"... :-) What you > can do is a query for category=1, subcategory=1, value=10R. That is what > I do day by day. However, you are probably right. This is my first SQL > database, and one may see that I don't have experience with it. :-) > Me neither. I've done only two or three myself, but I've looked over a lot of shoulders and had to deal with a lot of databases that weren't set up to my liking. :) > The next step with this system is to write some (G)UI for those tables. > I usually use the phpmyadmin interface. It is OK, but could be better. > Or even better... integrate it in gschem. > Gschem and PCB could both incorporate sqlite, and then we could set up a community database somewhere that as we bought parts we could enter the part numbers/packages information into. And then as we created footprints, we could put those into another database. Then later on, when I had a particular part number (perhaps from a device=) then a tool could show me a list of compatible, predefined footprints. Kind of like a next-generation version of what gedasymbols already is. Or could be. > Any volunteers? :-) > Not me! I'm more of an "idea guy", especially when it comes to databases. :) I would be happy to supply the IP address, however. b.g. -- Bill Gatliff b...@billgatliff.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts!
Bill Gatliff wrote: [...] > > Gosh, I think it almost does. You have a footprint column in your > device table, and it seems as though only one footprint would apply to a > specific device--- an 0603 resistor is always going to use the 0603 > footprint. So if you had resistors with other footprints, they'd be > different entries in the table, right? Right. Wrong! What about a TO220 transistor? You have standing and laying version, I do have an SMD version too. You may have a footprint for other technologies of soldering... such as reflow, wave, etc. You may have different resist opening version... etc. I think it might be a good idea to have a separate footprint table for footprint variants. > I don't think you are using your schema very effectively, however. I > think your description field should at most contain the word "resistor", > since you are capturing things like footprint and value in other fields. That is why I have the category and subcategory tables. > And I think you need a separate column for footprint symbol file name, > then drop the ".fp" from your footprint field and adopt a standard > naming convention for footprints. Then you could do a query for > "description=resistor and value=10R and footprint=SO14". Well well. This system is still a "quick and dirty hack"... :-) What you can do is a query for category=1, subcategory=1, value=10R. That is what I do day by day. However, you are probably right. This is my first SQL database, and one may see that I don't have experience with it. :-) > Yours is a sledgehammer system, but I like it. I'm a tad jealous, in > fact. :) The next step with this system is to write some (G)UI for those tables. I usually use the phpmyadmin interface. It is OK, but could be better. Or even better... integrate it in gschem. Any volunteers? :-) Cheers, Levente ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts!
Levente wrote: > DJ Delorie wrote: > >> Just FYI, I was mostly asking about the database aspect, not the >> storage aspect. Both aspects are interesting to read about, of >> course. >> > > You might know it... I have a database for my parts. There is a stock > table in it. So far, I don't use the stock table, because I buy 1000 > resistors at one go. So something is in my database, I must have some of > it (somewhere). :-) > > http://logonex.eu/phpmyadmin/index.php > > user: guest > no password > > Select the component database. > > Btw... I have so far more than 300 parts in it. The only pity with this > system, is that it doesn't have support of footprint variants. :-( > Gosh, I think it almost does. You have a footprint column in your device table, and it seems as though only one footprint would apply to a specific device--- an 0603 resistor is always going to use the 0603 footprint. So if you had resistors with other footprints, they'd be different entries in the table, right? I don't think you are using your schema very effectively, however. I think your description field should at most contain the word "resistor", since you are capturing things like footprint and value in other fields. And I think you need a separate column for footprint symbol file name, then drop the ".fp" from your footprint field and adopt a standard naming convention for footprints. Then you could do a query for "description=resistor and value=10R and footprint=SO14". Yours is a sledgehammer system, but I like it. I'm a tad jealous, in fact. :) b.g. -- Bill Gatliff b...@billgatliff.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts!
DJ Delorie wrote: > Just FYI, I was mostly asking about the database aspect, not the > storage aspect. Both aspects are interesting to read about, of > course. You might know it... I have a database for my parts. There is a stock table in it. So far, I don't use the stock table, because I buy 1000 resistors at one go. So something is in my database, I must have some of it (somewhere). :-) http://logonex.eu/phpmyadmin/index.php user: guest no password Select the component database. Btw... I have so far more than 300 parts in it. The only pity with this system, is that it doesn't have support of footprint variants. :-( For me this system works very well, and I use it in my day-job too. I plan to print data-matrices on the storage places. I've already bought a low cost webcam, and successfully scanned data-matrix printouts generated by some library out there. Cheers, Levente > ___ > geda-user mailing list > geda-user@moria.seul.org > http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user > ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts!
Cullen Newsom wrote: > What a headache! I dig through boxes until I find it! > > As far as computerized inventory tracking, I have almost zilch. I have a > few old BOMs lying around. I keep datasheets for parts I own in > different directories from other parts. I try to keep the files named > so that I can find them when I need them, but often it is just as easy > to re-download it, than look through my directories of datasheets. I am > terribly disorganized about this. Nobody knows what I have, including me. > > * I keep unfinished projects in clear plastic "shoeboxes" that you get > for about a buck at discount stores. > * Except for projects that are too big, so I have some cardboard boxes too > * And large plastic tubs > * Sometimes I clean up my bench and used a clear plastic "shoebox" for > that, or a cardboard box, or a large tub. > * I have a couple of three ring binders, with clear plastic pocket pages > for parts that can be filed in order > * I also have tons of those clear plastic do-dads whose base is the next > one's lid. > * And some tiny little flip-top dingers that I found in China > * And many cut-tapes rubber-banded together > * A few reels here and there (.01µF anyone?) > * And some auto parts store style bolt bins > * A bookshelf full of random sample kits > * Drawers with IC's stuck in foam > * Let's not forget those clear acrylic-drawer organizers > * And a bunch of other plastic (abs?) multi drawer organizers > * Fishing tackle boxes Oh man! I assume you are not married. Can't be. Impossible ... > * I try to keep dev-kits in their original box > > I sure wish that at some stage in the design workflow (the step between > gschem and PCB perhaps), I could somehow cleverly integrate part > (footprint) selection (from my inventory). Then maybe I would take an > inventory. > > Sigh. > [...] -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts!
Kai-Martin Knaak wrote: > On Thu, 14 May 2009 16:02:16 -0700, Joerg wrote: > >> Neat! 2 Euros for 10 of those is not expensive. But only the last one >> says ESD-safe > > Only the black are ESD-safe. They sell all sizes in all colors. > http://www.elv.de/SchraubenMagazine/x.aspx/cid_74/detail_1/detail2_159 > Pricing for smallest size antistatic is 3 EUR/10, VAT included. > For a 10-pack that's a very reasonable price. > These look similar, but not quite the same: > http://www.transforming-technologies.com/smd-clear.html > Thanks, those look good, plus they are ESD-safe. One thing you have to watch out for with those systems is the roundish corners. After clicking them together that leaves crevices in which gunk and mold can accumulate. Oh great, my Bluetooth mouse just quit. Harrrumph -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts!
On Thu, 14 May 2009 16:02:16 -0700, Joerg wrote: > Neat! 2 Euros for 10 of those is not expensive. But only the last one > says ESD-safe Only the black are ESD-safe. They sell all sizes in all colors. http://www.elv.de/SchraubenMagazine/x.aspx/cid_74/detail_1/detail2_159 Pricing for smallest size antistatic is 3 EUR/10, VAT included. These look similar, but not quite the same: http://www.transforming-technologies.com/smd-clear.html ---<(kaimartin)>--- ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts!
Kai-Martin Knaak wrote: > On Thu, 14 May 2009 15:02:40 -0500, Bill Gatliff wrote: > >> Seems great for cut tapes, at least. Where did you get your boxes? > > I got mine from elv: > http://www.elv.de/output/controller.aspx?cid=74&detail=10&detail2=4213 > > The lid of these boxes is spring loaded. It keeps the parts inside even > when the rack hits the floor. The boxes come in different sizes and > colors. They can be combined like lego. > Neat! 2 Euros for 10 of those is not expensive. But only the last one says ESD-safe and that doesn't mention whether you'll get 10 for that price. Now we have to find out where to get those in America ;-) -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts!
Just FYI, I was mostly asking about the database aspect, not the storage aspect. Both aspects are interesting to read about, of course. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts!
On Thu, 14 May 2009 15:02:40 -0500, Bill Gatliff wrote: > Seems great for cut tapes, at least. Where did you get your boxes? I got mine from elv: http://www.elv.de/output/controller.aspx?cid=74&detail=10&detail2=4213 The lid of these boxes is spring loaded. It keeps the parts inside even when the rack hits the floor. The boxes come in different sizes and colors. They can be combined like lego. ---<(kaimartin)>--- ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts!
DJ Delorie wrote: >> Also, caps, resistors and such come in loose snippets of paper-reel. >> That's not very handy to store stuff. They need a better home :-) > > Do you put the tape snippets in the coin envelopes, or peel the parts > out of the tape first? > Oh, before it's too late: _Don't_ remove hi-ohms resistor like 10M and such from their tapes because plating can rub off onto their bodies when tossed about. Also, they should not be touched with bare hands. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts!
DJ Delorie wrote: > How do people manage their parts inventories, so they know what > they've got? An inventory spreadsheet, a file case of 66 2 inch tall drawers intended for music sheets holds bags, reels, boxes, and some file folders with cut tape SMT parts double-stick-taped on letter size paper with edges labeled. Miscellaneous is in clear plastic organizer drawers. John ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts!
DJ Delorie wrote: >> Also, caps, resistors and such come in loose snippets of paper-reel. >> That's not very handy to store stuff. They need a better home :-) > > Do you put the tape snippets in the coin envelopes, or peel the parts > out of the tape first? > Depends on the parts. Jelly-bean parts such as caps and resistors I just dump in there as loose parts. As reel snippets they'd occupy too many envelopes because of quantity. Just imagine 500 0.01uF/0603 as reel snippets. With PIN diodes or similar more "noble" parts I cut the tape into short snippets. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts!
> Also, caps, resistors and such come in loose snippets of paper-reel. > That's not very handy to store stuff. They need a better home :-) Do you put the tape snippets in the coin envelopes, or peel the parts out of the tape first? ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts!
Bill Gatliff wrote: > Joerg wrote: >> John Larkin on s.e.design gave me "the" hint: Coin envelopes. >> > > Why not just leave the parts in the little anti-static envelopes they > came in? They're already labeled, even. > They come in too many different sizes and don't stack nicely. Also, they have no flap and you are always cutting and re-applying Scotch tape. This really slows down prototyping work. With the coin envelopes I don't even tuck the flap, never lost a part. Also, caps, resistors and such come in loose snippets of paper-reel. That's not very handy to store stuff. They need a better home :-) -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts!
DJ Delorie wrote: > I'm gearing up to populate a bunch of powermeter boards, plus the > sdram board, and got the biggest digikey box I've ever gotten. This > time, it was cost effective to by reels of two of the parts, and many > parts were ordered at the next price-point up (10 is cheaper than 9 > sometimes - I've got a TUBE of ethernet jacks now), so I'll have > leftovers. > > How do people manage their parts inventories, so they know what > they've got? > > I've tried several ways, including writing programs and perl scripts but I find a simple spreadsheet works for me. I keep the basic part specs, mfg part number, supplier part numbers (DigiKey, Mouser mostly), last order price, qty on hand and location. Location is just a storage box number. I keep the parts in their original packages. Almost all of my parts, except some connectors, are SMT. I'm a little lazy about keeping qty on hand updated so I usually inventory when I start a new project. I dont really worry about qty for resistors, I just by 500, 1K or 5K qty. I keep the pdf data sheets in a directory with a sub-directory for each manufacturer. -- Joe Chisolm Computer Translations, Inc. Marble Falls, Tx. 830-265-8018 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts!
I use the watchmaker's cans from Lee Valley and some stainless steel cans from McMaster Carr for the parts I use the most. See [1]http://tinyurl.com/cv29v5 (* jcl *) -- You can't create open hardware with closed EDA tools. [2]http://www.luciani.org References 1. http://tinyurl.com/cv29v5 2. http://www.luciani.org/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts!
What a headache! I dig through boxes until I find it! As far as computerized inventory tracking, I have almost zilch. I have a few old BOMs lying around. I keep datasheets for parts I own in different directories from other parts. I try to keep the files named so that I can find them when I need them, but often it is just as easy to re-download it, than look through my directories of datasheets. I am terribly disorganized about this. Nobody knows what I have, including me. * I keep unfinished projects in clear plastic "shoeboxes" that you get for about a buck at discount stores. * Except for projects that are too big, so I have some cardboard boxes too * And large plastic tubs * Sometimes I clean up my bench and used a clear plastic "shoebox" for that, or a cardboard box, or a large tub. * I have a couple of three ring binders, with clear plastic pocket pages for parts that can be filed in order * I also have tons of those clear plastic do-dads whose base is the next one's lid. * And some tiny little flip-top dingers that I found in China * And many cut-tapes rubber-banded together * A few reels here and there (.01µF anyone?) * And some auto parts store style bolt bins * A bookshelf full of random sample kits * Drawers with IC's stuck in foam * Let's not forget those clear acrylic-drawer organizers * And a bunch of other plastic (abs?) multi drawer organizers * Fishing tackle boxes * I try to keep dev-kits in their original box I sure wish that at some stage in the design workflow (the step between gschem and PCB perhaps), I could somehow cleverly integrate part (footprint) selection (from my inventory). Then maybe I would take an inventory. Sigh. > > How do people manage their parts inventories, so they know what > > they've got? > > > ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts!
Joerg wrote: > > John Larkin on s.e.design gave me "the" hint: Coin envelopes. > Why not just leave the parts in the little anti-static envelopes they came in? They're already labeled, even. b.g. -- Bill Gatliff b...@billgatliff.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts!
Bill Gatliff wrote: > Joerg wrote: >> I use a MS-Works database. It lists the qty, part description and (very >> important) where is is stashed. For SMT stuff that I may need at client >> sites I use tiny jewel boxes that have around 50 micro-bins each in a >> 2"*2"*1/3" space, stackable. No chance for labels or anything, without >> this database I would not have a clue what's where. >> > > Even worse, many of my SMT parts are so small that the labeling on them > is pretty meaningless--- if there is any at all. If a box of parts were > to drop open, you'd be better off sweeping the whole pile into the trash > and starting over! > I meant the bins themselves. The individual storage areas as such tiny square holes that even a label on that part of the box would be like micro-fiche. > I did find these once: http://t-rexelectronics.com/7.html > > Seems great for cut tapes, at least. Where did you get your boxes? > The usual, at a company that closed the subsidiary. They are actually containers where SMT inductors were shipped in. > My wife has suggested mini-scrapbook albums, whose page folders are > about the same size as the small static-safe bags that Mouser ships in. > > Plano makes some small boxes with configurable compartments, but I've > found that their dividers don't seat tightly enough to keep small SMT > parts from passing underneath them. And I worry about static. > John Larkin on s.e.design gave me "the" hint: Coin envelopes. So I bought two boxes of No.1 coin envelopes at Staples and started filing the various parts inside. It's the brownish post-consumer stuff and I could not detect any static on those. You can write onto them, including comments such as "mushy at VCC < 4V". Digikey ships with these nice peel and stick labels and I also stick those on there. So when I run out of something I just key in the number on there and, bingo. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts!
On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 3:34 PM, DJ Delorie <[1...@delorie.com> wrote: How do people manage their parts inventories, so they know what they've got? __ Postgres tables and containers with transparent lids ;) (* jcl *) -- You can't create open hardware with closed EDA tools. [2]http://www.luciani.org References 1. mailto:d...@delorie.com 2. http://www.luciani.org/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts!
On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 03:34:31PM -0400, DJ Delorie wrote: > > How do people manage their parts inventories, so they know what > they've got? I have some flat text files of interesting stuff (like microcontrollers and voltage regulators) and things I have vast quantities of (reels of 0603 caps) and then I just try to keep "kits" on hand so that I know I have any value of resistor I want (currently in through-hole and 0805). Connectors I'm really bad about. I tend to go through my collection of connectors every time I need something. -- Ben Jackson AD7GD http://www.ben.com/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts!
DJ Delorie wrote: > I'm gearing up to populate a bunch of powermeter boards, plus the > sdram board, and got the biggest digikey box I've ever gotten. This > time, it was cost effective to by reels of two of the parts, and many > parts were ordered at the next price-point up (10 is cheaper than 9 > sometimes - I've got a TUBE of ethernet jacks now), so I'll have > leftovers. > > How do people manage their parts inventories, so they know what > they've got? > OT, but this site seems to have a lot of different kinds of storage bins: http://www.usplastic.com b.g. -- Bill Gatliff b...@billgatliff.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts!
Joerg wrote: > I use a MS-Works database. It lists the qty, part description and (very > important) where is is stashed. For SMT stuff that I may need at client > sites I use tiny jewel boxes that have around 50 micro-bins each in a > 2"*2"*1/3" space, stackable. No chance for labels or anything, without > this database I would not have a clue what's where. > Even worse, many of my SMT parts are so small that the labeling on them is pretty meaningless--- if there is any at all. If a box of parts were to drop open, you'd be better off sweeping the whole pile into the trash and starting over! I did find these once: http://t-rexelectronics.com/7.html Seems great for cut tapes, at least. Where did you get your boxes? My wife has suggested mini-scrapbook albums, whose page folders are about the same size as the small static-safe bags that Mouser ships in. Plano makes some small boxes with configurable compartments, but I've found that their dividers don't seat tightly enough to keep small SMT parts from passing underneath them. And I worry about static. b.g. -- Bill Gatliff b...@billgatliff.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts!
Steven Michalske wrote: > I use boxes of duplicate parts and a faulty memory! > Yea, that one has worked well for me for years too. :) I've been interested to try something I saw a lawyer use once to track an incomprehensibly-large pile of documents: divide them up into small, arbitrary groups, and put them into numbered folders. Then keep a notepad (or in his case, a database) that mapped the document title, author, etc. to the folder number. The lawyer knew that he didn't need to classify his documents, he just needed to be able to find them individually. Applied to our work, sometimes it doesn't make sense to have a drawer for resistors, another for connectors, etc. Just get some of those small-parts boxes from Lowes or whatever, and as new parts come in then you put the little bags into the most-empty bin and then jot down which bin it was. There was a time when I kept all my Mouser orders in their original shipping boxes, along with a hardcopy of the order. Then I could just flip through the order sheets until I found which box the part I wanted was in. It really seemed helpful, although manually searching 10+ page lists was an ideal opportunity for improvement. Just a thought. Not that I have time to do better, of course. :) b.g. -- Bill Gatliff b...@billgatliff.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts!
DJ Delorie wrote: > I'm gearing up to populate a bunch of powermeter boards, plus the > sdram board, and got the biggest digikey box I've ever gotten. This > time, it was cost effective to by reels of two of the parts, and many > parts were ordered at the next price-point up (10 is cheaper than 9 > sometimes - I've got a TUBE of ethernet jacks now), so I'll have > leftovers. > > How do people manage their parts inventories, so they know what > they've got? > I use a MS-Works database. It lists the qty, part description and (very important) where is is stashed. For SMT stuff that I may need at client sites I use tiny jewel boxes that have around 50 micro-bins each in a 2"*2"*1/3" space, stackable. No chance for labels or anything, without this database I would not have a clue what's where. MS-Works comes pre-config'd on most PCs but I don't know if there is a Linux equivalent. The OpenOffice database is not useful IMHO. Look for something much simpler. You probably won't need 3D-graphed statistics about your usage of Ethernet jacks in correlation to sun spot numbers or so :-) -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts!
I use boxes of duplicate parts and a faulty memory! On May 14, 2009, at 12:34 PM, DJ Delorie wrote: > > I'm gearing up to populate a bunch of powermeter boards, plus the > sdram board, and got the biggest digikey box I've ever gotten. This > time, it was cost effective to by reels of two of the parts, and many > parts were ordered at the next price-point up (10 is cheaper than 9 > sometimes - I've got a TUBE of ethernet jacks now), so I'll have > leftovers. > > How do people manage their parts inventories, so they know what > they've got? > > > ___ > geda-user mailing list > geda-user@moria.seul.org > http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
gEDA-user: Parts!
I'm gearing up to populate a bunch of powermeter boards, plus the sdram board, and got the biggest digikey box I've ever gotten. This time, it was cost effective to by reels of two of the parts, and many parts were ordered at the next price-point up (10 is cheaper than 9 sometimes - I've got a TUBE of ethernet jacks now), so I'll have leftovers. How do people manage their parts inventories, so they know what they've got? ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts modified are not available until reloaded gschem
Hi Vinny, Once you have edited and saved a part, go back to the schematic, select the part, then select "Edit" and then "Update Component" or use the shortcut "ep." This should reload that component and update the schematic. If you have multiple instances of the component, highlight them all before doing the "ep" and it will update them all. If you have lots of them, it is probably easier to reload the schematic. Steve On Sat, 05 Apr 2008 15:58:25 -0700, Vincent Onelli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi, > I am fairly new at gschem, I found that if I modify a part then save in > the same name the modification do not show when the part is reloaded > until gschem is reloaded. Same if the modified part is saved under > different name it is not available until gschem is reloaded. > Is there a way to get around? I will appreciate any help. Thank you in > advance > Vinny -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts modified are not available until reloaded gschem
On Sat, 05 Apr 2008 17:58:25 -0500 Vincent Onelli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi, > I am fairly new at gschem, I found that if I modify a part then save in the > same name the modification do not show when the part is reloaded until > gschem is reloaded. Same if the modified part is saved under different name > it is not available until gschem is reloaded. Is there a way to get around? > I will appreciate any help. Thank you in advance Vinny > Yes, there is a blue button in the symbol select dialog... (see attached picture) Welcome to the club! -- Levente http://web.interware.hu/lekovacs <> ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts modified are not available until reloaded gschem
On Sat, Apr 5, 2008 at 6:58 PM, Vincent Onelli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Hi, > I am fairly new at gschem, I found that if I modify a part then save in the > same name the modification do not show when the part is reloaded until > gschem is reloaded. Same if the modified part is saved under different name > it is not available until gschem is reloaded. > Is there a way to get around? I will appreciate any help. Thank you in > advance Are you sure that you can't just close and then open the "add component" dialog box? I have been creating and changing a lot of symbols lately and have found if I close and then open the "add component" dialog the new symbols and changed symbols will be available. (* jcl *) -- http://www.luciani.org ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
gEDA-user: Parts modified are not available until reloaded gschem
Hi, I am fairly new at gschem, I found that if I modify a part then save in the same name the modification do not show when the part is reloaded until gschem is reloaded. Same if the modified part is saved under different name it is not available until gschem is reloaded. Is there a way to get around? I will appreciate any help. Thank you in advance Vinny ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts DB API
My only request is to design it with the disabled in mind. If its
graphical, include shortcut keys. Using the accessiblity mouse keys and
waiting for the mouse to travel from point to point multiplied by repetitive
tasks effects the time to completion significantly.
On Dec 20, 2007 4:00 PM, John Doty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On Dec 20, 2007, at 1:24 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
>
> > On Dec 19, 2007, at 5:47 PM, John Doty wrote:
> >>>As do I. I've always thought that gattrib's functionality being
> >>> implemented as a separate program is a bit odd. I think there
> >>> should
> >>> be a menu choice like "Edit all component attributes..." which would
> >>> bring up what we now see as gattrib's main window.
> >>
> >> To me, it's the other way around. The schematic editor is a graphic
> >> tool, and should concentrate on graphics ("A program should do one
> >> thing well"). Attributes are text, and should be entered and edited
> >> by a text-oriented tool. For attributes visible in the schematic, the
> >> schematic editor should be able to read the attributes, but it need
> >> not be able to write them.
> >
> >I understand and agree with your point, but I think it should be
> > looked at in a different way. Rather than thinking of it as a
> > graphical tool, the schematic editor is a "circuit design tool" (that
> > happens to use graphics). One can attach attributes to components in
> > the design by individually selecting each component
>
> That's fine for starting a project.
>
> > and editing their
> > attributes, but a spreadsheet-format tool like gattrib simply provides
> > a shortcut for that functionality for more advanced users.
>
> gattrib is very difficult. For one thing, it's a graphical tool
> itself, where a text tool is needed. For another, it's per page
> rather than per project. For another, it's per instance rather than
> per part or even per refdes (try changing the footprint for a 100
> slot device in gattrib). A text editor is a much more reasonable tool
> for, well, editing text, which is what attributes are. Right now, you
> can kind of do that by editing the sch files directly, but the fog of
> graphics data gets in the way, you're still working per instance, and
> I'm sure it's daunting to newbies.
>
> But (optionally) moving attributes to a separate text file, indexed
> by part rather than instance or refdes, could make this much easier.
>
> >
> >We're talking about the same thing of course; I'm just proposing a
> > different way of looking at it.
> >
> > -Dave
> >
> > --
> > Dave McGuire
> > Port Charlotte, FL
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > geda-user mailing list
> > geda-user@moria.seul.org
> > http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
>
> John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
> http://www.noqsi.com/
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
>
> ___
> geda-user mailing list
> geda-user@moria.seul.org
> http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
>
___
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Re: gEDA-user: Parts Data deffinitions
I'm new to pcb, as i've worked with it just on the past two months making a simple board (pic + L298 to drive a bipolar stepper). But I can give you my impression and tought about the tools i've used, gschem and pcb (gtk). For both a lot of work as been done and a lot of work as to be done, but as I've understood reading the mailing list that is a fact of people and energy involved in developping so i've no comment to give as they will not help to much. The biggest problem i've found is about the library. You start from gschem and a lot of symbols don't respect the new rules about symbols. I think a symbol editor that is more efficient than gschem itself would be really usefull. gsch2pcb as i've read somewhere on the mailing list continue to export old behaviour if you don't create the pcb file before. The library of pcb is dispersive and with that geda categories that contain multiple type of footprint it coul be time expensive to find the right footprint. I've created some components in newlib format by editing the text file, may be it would be easyest to do it using pcb with an appropriated grid. Anyway i think a good footprint editor would be very usefull. It seems that every one have different opinion of what type of library to use, and I understand that people already adducted :-) to a certain workflow or that have adapted some script to fill their need does not feel the need to change. So I think that a database (with a format well defined and stable over time) wich contain heavy symbol (name, symbol, spice model, footprint, manufacturer, comment, ecc..) that is mantained updated could be very usefull. From such a database you can extract all the type of library you like, light one, for those that would like to edit manually attributes, heavy one for those that have no special need. Just the spice model or symbol, choose the right footprint if there are several choice for the same component ecc.. And you can write new application or tool with a solid component base that have no reason to be rewrited for every cad application if well defined. That seems to be a good point as i've the impression that geda is anyway a bit eterogeneous. If someone write a library editor that work on the database you can make change on every application library format without the need of rewriting the library, you just need an export tool from the database the the new format. I think the biggest problem would be to choose a database format suited to most of the actual and future need. Wich such a database every long date user have no need to change their workflow, and every new user could have a good set of components that woork flawlessly from gschem to ngspice, footprint ecc... Or you can start from a bom editor to gschem ecc... Sorry for my english. Anselmo Alle venerdì 21 dicembre 2007, Steve Meier ha scritto: > Yep, a lot of our designs here start with this is what it has to do and > this is where it has to fit. Physical size limitations are imposed. > > > > > On Fri, 2007-12-21 at 10:44 -0600, John Griessen wrote: > > Steve Meier wrote: > > Project matters of course, and is a good place to define different DRCs. > > > > > 3) If the project is a circuitboard then before then before the netlist > > > can be generated at least the package has to be selected (passive) and > > > often the device (active). > > > A device complete with package and required values, manufacturor is > > > called a "component"? If the project is a circuit either asic or fpga > > > then generic types are probably going to be translated into standard > > > logic cells? > > > > I just decided to trash a part I thought was "nifty" for assembly difficulty reasons. > > pcb parts have constraints such as placement courtyard in a 2D sense, > > but package height is a big deal too, > > and the 3D zone it needs to reserve during assembly > > maybe deserves its own data type such as: > > > > * placement keepout volume > > * placement robot keepout > > * placement no-fly zone > > * placement skyprint > > * placement collision volume > > * placement canyon > > * placement wall > > > > Wall seems the most compact terminology (in English) to refer to this by. > > > > John Griessen > > > > Ecosensory Austin TX > > > > > > ___ > > geda-user mailing list > > geda-user@moria.seul.org > > http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user > > > > ___ > geda-user mailing list > geda-user@moria.seul.org > http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user > signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts Data deffinitions
Yep, a lot of our designs here start with this is what it has to do and this is where it has to fit. Physical size limitations are imposed. On Fri, 2007-12-21 at 10:44 -0600, John Griessen wrote: > Steve Meier wrote: > Project matters of course, and is a good place to define different DRCs. > > > 3) If the project is a circuitboard then before then before the netlist > > can be generated at least the package has to be selected (passive) and > > often the device (active). > > A device complete with package and required values, manufacturor is > > called a "component"? If the project is a circuit either asic or fpga > > then generic types are probably going to be translated into standard > > logic cells? > > I just decided to trash a part I thought was "nifty" for assembly difficulty > reasons. > pcb parts have constraints such as placement courtyard in a 2D sense, > but package height is a big deal too, > and the 3D zone it needs to reserve during assembly > maybe deserves its own data type such as: > > * placement keepout volume > * placement robot keepout > * placement no-fly zone > * placement skyprint > * placement collision volume > * placement canyon > * placement wall > > Wall seems the most compact terminology (in English) to refer to this by. > > John Griessen > > Ecosensory Austin TX > > > ___ > geda-user mailing list > geda-user@moria.seul.org > http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts Data deffinitions
Steve Meier wrote: Project matters of course, and is a good place to define different DRCs. > 3) If the project is a circuitboard then before then before the netlist > can be generated at least the package has to be selected (passive) and > often the device (active). > A device complete with package and required values, manufacturor is > called a "component"? If the project is a circuit either asic or fpga > then generic types are probably going to be translated into standard > logic cells? I just decided to trash a part I thought was "nifty" for assembly difficulty reasons. pcb parts have constraints such as placement courtyard in a 2D sense, but package height is a big deal too, and the 3D zone it needs to reserve during assembly maybe deserves its own data type such as: * placement keepout volume * placement robot keepout * placement no-fly zone * placement skyprint * placement collision volume * placement canyon * placement wall Wall seems the most compact terminology (in English) to refer to this by. John Griessen Ecosensory Austin TX ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
gEDA-user: Parts Data deffinitions
I have been spending the evening hidding back here in my office puzzling over eda data structure terminology for capturing the complexity of devices. This is actually very cowerdly of me as I am avoiding my wife's quilting bee which has taken over the rest of the house. In trying to scope the data structure issue of describing components I am pondering. 1) The project type. (board design, asic design, fpga design etc.) Would the project type matter? Would different drc rules be applied? I think so, comments please. (this might be a good time to link in a project requirements document) 2) The situation where the designer has an idea that they need a component of some type for example a JFET and but they haven't decided which one. Here I suspect it would make sense to drop into the schematic a generic JFET symbol with generic pins (gate, drain, source). I think adding performance requirments would also support device selection later. Is "generic device" an acceptable term for this state? 3) If the project is a circuitboard then before then before the netlist can be generated at least the package has to be selected (passive) and often the device (active). A device complete with package and required values, manufacturor is called a "component"? If the project is a circuit either asic or fpga then generic types are probably going to be translated into standard logic cells? 4) Before a board can be released to manufacturing all components and values must be selected. But at this time a component must have a manufacturor and a specific manufacturor part number. But a component could have multiple manufacturors. Is "bom_entry" a good term for this condition where a needed device could be a number of different components all of them similar (same package, same performance) but having different manufacturor part numbers and possibly different manufacturors? Thanks, Steve Meier ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts DB API
On Dec 20, 2007, at 1:24 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
> On Dec 19, 2007, at 5:47 PM, John Doty wrote:
>>>As do I. I've always thought that gattrib's functionality being
>>> implemented as a separate program is a bit odd. I think there
>>> should
>>> be a menu choice like "Edit all component attributes..." which would
>>> bring up what we now see as gattrib's main window.
>>
>> To me, it's the other way around. The schematic editor is a graphic
>> tool, and should concentrate on graphics ("A program should do one
>> thing well"). Attributes are text, and should be entered and edited
>> by a text-oriented tool. For attributes visible in the schematic, the
>> schematic editor should be able to read the attributes, but it need
>> not be able to write them.
>
>I understand and agree with your point, but I think it should be
> looked at in a different way. Rather than thinking of it as a
> graphical tool, the schematic editor is a "circuit design tool" (that
> happens to use graphics). One can attach attributes to components in
> the design by individually selecting each component
That's fine for starting a project.
> and editing their
> attributes, but a spreadsheet-format tool like gattrib simply provides
> a shortcut for that functionality for more advanced users.
gattrib is very difficult. For one thing, it's a graphical tool
itself, where a text tool is needed. For another, it's per page
rather than per project. For another, it's per instance rather than
per part or even per refdes (try changing the footprint for a 100
slot device in gattrib). A text editor is a much more reasonable tool
for, well, editing text, which is what attributes are. Right now, you
can kind of do that by editing the sch files directly, but the fog of
graphics data gets in the way, you're still working per instance, and
I'm sure it's daunting to newbies.
But (optionally) moving attributes to a separate text file, indexed
by part rather than instance or refdes, could make this much easier.
>
>We're talking about the same thing of course; I'm just proposing a
> different way of looking at it.
>
> -Dave
>
> --
> Dave McGuire
> Port Charlotte, FL
>
>
>
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Re: gEDA-user: Parts DB API
On Dec 19, 2007, at 5:47 PM, John Doty wrote:
>>As do I. I've always thought that gattrib's functionality being
>> implemented as a separate program is a bit odd. I think there should
>> be a menu choice like "Edit all component attributes..." which would
>> bring up what we now see as gattrib's main window.
>
> To me, it's the other way around. The schematic editor is a graphic
> tool, and should concentrate on graphics ("A program should do one
> thing well"). Attributes are text, and should be entered and edited
> by a text-oriented tool. For attributes visible in the schematic, the
> schematic editor should be able to read the attributes, but it need
> not be able to write them.
I understand and agree with your point, but I think it should be
looked at in a different way. Rather than thinking of it as a
graphical tool, the schematic editor is a "circuit design tool" (that
happens to use graphics). One can attach attributes to components in
the design by individually selecting each component and editing their
attributes, but a spreadsheet-format tool like gattrib simply provides
a shortcut for that functionality for more advanced users.
We're talking about the same thing of course; I'm just proposing a
different way of looking at it.
-Dave
--
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Port Charlotte, FL
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Re: gEDA-user: Parts DB API
Peter TB Brett wrote: > On Wednesday 19 December 2007 23:51:37 John Doty wrote: The attribute value in the parts file then >> overrides the value in the graphics, but the graphical properties of >> the attribute still originate in the graphics. > > For e.g. inductors, how do you make sure that the value show on the schematic > and the value of the part selected are actually in sync? There's no automation of this, just libraries that are proven out. If we could implement some kind of BOM drc sanity checker that pointed out possible inconsistencies in part data and the part value=330nH, it would be a EDA innovation I believe. So, I don't think it's feasible to force schematic values from the part number/mfr info of the part selected since part numbers are opaque in meaning often. The value of e.g. inductors is just going to be a field in the attrib list for a specific part. So, value=330nH in the attrib list for a specific part replaces value=320nH in the schematic because of which symbol is selected when you do a "get data for heavying this symbol". Can't think of any way to "make sure". John G -- Ecosensory Austin TX tinyOS devel on: ubuntu Linux; tinyOS v2.0.2; telosb ecosens1 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts DB API
Dave N6NZ wrote: > John Doty wrote: >> 3. The flat file is a simple interface between BOM management and the >> schematic->netlist->layout flow. Modular. >> > > I suppose as an intermediate step, you could get the same effect with a > sch2sch attribute replacer. It could look for the trigger attribute, > and insert/replace other attributes. > > schematic + derived-attrs-file -> schematic temp file -> netlist That's a fine idea. Just outputting a gschem file with extra attribs names to use? some_circuit.sch + derived-attrs-file --> some_circuit.dbattribs.sch --> netlist John Griessen -- Ecosensory Austin TX ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts DB API
On Dec 20, 2007, at 1:51 AM, Peter TB Brett wrote: > On Wednesday 19 December 2007 23:51:37 John Doty wrote: > >> There is no graphical information in the parts file. For an attribute >> to be visible in the schematic, a visible default/placeholder >> attribute should be visibly present in the symbol or visibly attached >> in the schematic. The attribute value in the parts file then >> overrides the value in the graphics, but the graphical properties of >> the attribute still originate in the graphics. > > For e.g. inductors, how do you make sure that the value show on the > schematic > and the value of the part selected are actually in sync? gschem reads the parts file. If the part selected has value=, it displays that. Otherwise, it displays value= from the schematic. The user may need to use "ep" to get the right display, but we already have to do that with heavy symbols anyway. > >Peter > > > -- > Peter Brett > > Electronic Systems Engineer > Integral Informatics Ltd > > > ___ > geda-user mailing list > geda-user@moria.seul.org > http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts DB API
On Wednesday 19 December 2007 23:51:37 John Doty wrote: > There is no graphical information in the parts file. For an attribute > to be visible in the schematic, a visible default/placeholder > attribute should be visibly present in the symbol or visibly attached > in the schematic. The attribute value in the parts file then > overrides the value in the graphics, but the graphical properties of > the attribute still originate in the graphics. For e.g. inductors, how do you make sure that the value show on the schematic and the value of the part selected are actually in sync? Peter -- Peter Brett Electronic Systems Engineer Integral Informatics Ltd signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts DB API
John Doty wrote: > 2. The flat file is another place where one can inspect or intervene in > the flow. There is value in that, certainly. > 3. The flat file is a simple interface between BOM management and the > schematic->netlist->layout flow. Modular. > I suppose as an intermediate step, you could get the same effect with a sch2sch attribute replacer. It could look for the trigger attribute, and insert/replace other attributes. schematic + derived-attrs-file -> schematic temp file -> netlist So the magic tool could look for binnumber=X, and clobber the footprint=Y (and anything else) accordingly. By using the current .sch file as the intermediate file format, all this database and work flow theory can be tested. -dave ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts DB API
On Dec 19, 2007, at 10:01 PM, Dave N6NZ wrote:
>
>
> John Doty wrote:
>> On Dec 18, 2007, at 2:32 PM, Peter TB Brett wrote:
>>
>>> "Rewrite the component library C & Scheme APIs, and make a new GUI
>>> for it in
>>> gschem" is achievable (just). Ideally, I'd like to be able to do
>>> it in a
>>> tidy, self-contained way.
>>
>> May I suggest the following path to the future? I believe it's pretty
>> simple.
>>
>> Define a new attribute, "part=". Have it refer to an entry in a file,
>> "parts". Now, for example, I might attach the attribute "part=BCX70K"
>> to a light NPN transistor symbol. In the file "parts", I might place
>> the following:
>>
>> BCX70K
>> device=2N930JANTXV
>> footprint=TO206AA
>> pinnumber=1:C
>> pinnumber=2:B
>> pinnumber=3:E
>
> Conceptually I'm with you, but this is yet another flat file. I'd
> like
> a mechanism so that when the trigger attribute ('part=' in your
> example)
> is encountered, it uses a script or helper to get the goods. So if
> you
> want a flat file, OK, the helper reads your flat file. My helper will
> connect to mysql and use the attribute value in a SQL select
> statement.
Fine with me. That's the kind of thing I was thinking of when I
called this a "path to the future". Once you have the hook, you can
have various ways to use it.
>
> Now, from there it is a short step to being able to join multiple
> attribute files. If there is a global attribute selector that can be
> invoked at netlist time (or other extraction tool..) then a user might
> have an extra database column for attribute set, and a column for
> revision.
>
> So, you might set attrset='prototype' attrsetrev='B1', and so the
> netlister does a select with "part='' AND
> attrset='prototype' AND attrsetrev='B1'" and extracts the appropriate
> parameters. A week later, you use attrset='production' and
> attrsetrev='A0' or whatever to get the information relevant to
> manufacturing ramp.
>
> Now, I suppose you could turn that around. Let's suppose gschem
> implements your suggestion exactly. Then I would write a program that
> did the database query and produced the flat file to feed into the
> netlisting process. Which of course can be automated with make.
That was more what I was thinking. This path has few advantages, I
think:
1. It's simple to implement the flat file right away, I think.
2. The flat file is another place where one can inspect or intervene
in the flow.
3. The flat file is a simple interface between BOM management and the
schematic->netlist->layout flow. Modular.
John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
http://www.noqsi.com/
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: gEDA-user: Parts DB API
John Doty wrote:
> On Dec 18, 2007, at 2:32 PM, Peter TB Brett wrote:
>
>> "Rewrite the component library C & Scheme APIs, and make a new GUI
>> for it in
>> gschem" is achievable (just). Ideally, I'd like to be able to do
>> it in a
>> tidy, self-contained way.
>
> May I suggest the following path to the future? I believe it's pretty
> simple.
>
> Define a new attribute, "part=". Have it refer to an entry in a file,
> "parts". Now, for example, I might attach the attribute "part=BCX70K"
> to a light NPN transistor symbol. In the file "parts", I might place
> the following:
>
> BCX70K
> device=2N930JANTXV
> footprint=TO206AA
> pinnumber=1:C
> pinnumber=2:B
> pinnumber=3:E
Conceptually I'm with you, but this is yet another flat file. I'd like
a mechanism so that when the trigger attribute ('part=' in your example)
is encountered, it uses a script or helper to get the goods. So if you
want a flat file, OK, the helper reads your flat file. My helper will
connect to mysql and use the attribute value in a SQL select statement.
Now, from there it is a short step to being able to join multiple
attribute files. If there is a global attribute selector that can be
invoked at netlist time (or other extraction tool..) then a user might
have an extra database column for attribute set, and a column for revision.
So, you might set attrset='prototype' attrsetrev='B1', and so the
netlister does a select with "part='' AND
attrset='prototype' AND attrsetrev='B1'" and extracts the appropriate
parameters. A week later, you use attrset='production' and
attrsetrev='A0' or whatever to get the information relevant to
manufacturing ramp.
Now, I suppose you could turn that around. Let's suppose gschem
implements your suggestion exactly. Then I would write a program that
did the database query and produced the flat file to feed into the
netlisting process. Which of course can be automated with make.
-dave
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Re: gEDA-user: Parts DB API
John Doty wrote: > Consider that a design might contain a bunch of chips, each with a > bypass capacitor. Now, for sanity, it makes a lot of sense to use the > *same* bypass capacitor device throughout the design. However, what > if you need to change it? This would argue for being able to apply tags via attributes, so that you could have a tag=bypass on every cap functioning as a bypass, and then a "select * from bom,attr where bom.refdes=attr.refdes and attr.name='tag' and attr.value='bypass';" or some such pulls the parts in question. (That SQL is guaranteed broken, but I hope you get the idea...) -dave ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts DB API
> Can the method DJ used for plugins in pcb be used by gschem at all? That works if you have a way to "register" functions and call them by name, instead of linking them in. Should be easy with the existing guile support. As for *what* to register, I suppose that depends on the user. PCB just dynamically loads whatever it finds and lets the .so's register whatever they've got. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts DB API
Peter Clifton wrote: > If the the core gattrib functionality were a GUI plugin, and gattrib a > framework shell for loading schematics into memory etc.., then passing > the TOPLEVEL to the gattrib widget, we might be able to have the best of > both worlds. > > Plugins won't be too far away in gschem... we just need something useful > to use them for. Can the method DJ used for plugins in pcb be used by gschem at all? It didn't cause any other library dependencies... JG -- Ecosensory Austin TX tinyOS devel on: ubuntu Linux; tinyOS v2.0.2; telosb ecosens1 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts DB API
On Dec 18, 2007, at 2:32 PM, Peter TB Brett wrote: > "Rewrite the component library C & Scheme APIs, and make a new GUI > for it in > gschem" is achievable (just). Ideally, I'd like to be able to do > it in a > tidy, self-contained way. May I suggest the following path to the future? I believe it's pretty simple. Define a new attribute, "part=". Have it refer to an entry in a file, "parts". Now, for example, I might attach the attribute "part=BCX70K" to a light NPN transistor symbol. In the file "parts", I might place the following: BCX70K device=2N930JANTXV footprint=TO206AA pinnumber=1:C pinnumber=2:B pinnumber=3:E The "1:" etc. refer to pinseq, similar to slotting. There may be a better way to do this. Note that I used a part number of a transistor similar to what I wanted as the part ID here, but the real part turned out to be 2N930JANTXV. I could also have used low_noise_npn. Rules: Attributes in the parts file override attributes in the symbol and schematic. There is no graphical information in the parts file. For an attribute to be visible in the schematic, a visible default/placeholder attribute should be visibly present in the symbol or visibly attached in the schematic. The attribute value in the parts file then overrides the value in the graphics, but the graphical properties of the attribute still originate in the graphics. The "ep" command should rescan symbols and the parts file, updating attributes. Overridden attributes should be greyed out in the attribute editing dialog. I think this requires very few changes and can be generalized in the future. John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts DB API
On Dec 19, 2007, at 2:56 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
> On Dec 19, 2007, at 3:52 PM, Ivan Stankovic wrote:
>>> Is there any barrier to integrating gattrib with gschem? I think
>>> I'd
>>> be
>>> happy with being able to pop up gattrib as a gigantic modal dialog.
>>
>> I had actually proposed just that some months ago (it was on IRC),
>> but the idea was dismissed as unnecessary and complicated, if I
>> recall
>> correctly. Personally, I think integrating gattrib with gschem (as
>> in:
>> gattrib-in-gschem would just be gschem's attribute dialog on
>> steroids)
>> makes perfect sense.
>
>As do I. I've always thought that gattrib's functionality being
> implemented as a separate program is a bit odd. I think there should
> be a menu choice like "Edit all component attributes..." which would
> bring up what we now see as gattrib's main window.
To me, it's the other way around. The schematic editor is a graphic
tool, and should concentrate on graphics ("A program should do one
thing well"). Attributes are text, and should be entered and edited
by a text-oriented tool. For attributes visible in the schematic, the
schematic editor should be able to read the attributes, but it need
not be able to write them.
A corollary is that attribute sets belong in a separate file (or set
of files) from the schematics.
>
> -Dave
>
> --
> Dave McGuire
> Port Charlotte, FL
>
>
>
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Re: gEDA-user: Parts DB API, GUI
On Wednesday 19 December 2007 19:57:58 John Griessen wrote: > Peter TB Brett wrote: > > On Tuesday 18 December 2007 23:22:49 Levente wrote: > >> I wanted to do that, but, to be honest, I have zero knowledge of gschem > >> internals. I've tried to figure things out, but failed. > > > > That's where I come in. > > > >> I think we should have in rc files specification to database server(s), > >> and a relative simple GUI to chouse components. > > > > I think that, eventually, we should have some loadable Scheme modules > > that provide convenient ways to specify database servers and schemas. > > For the time being, however, I don't see any reason not to stick to using > > some sort of external helper programs for actually accessing the > > database, as long as we can get the UI and basic Scheme API nailed down. > > Here are some GUI ideas, after reading the recent possibilities: > http://ecosensory.com/geda/dbattrib-mockup.png > > dbattrib-mockup.svg schematic-dbattrib.gif etc are there, but don't show in > my browsers firefox or mozilla, so just in case you want to reuse them in > inkscape. Interesting... Devils' advocate: as far as I can tell, the symbol itself determines what sets of attributes are valid. This is a problem: suppose a backend wants to provide a set of alternatives for a default library symbol like resistor-1.sym? The more serious problem is that such an approach (without a file-format bump) will not allow alternatives to have different pinouts -- but this is one of the main objects of the exercise! Peter -- Peter Brett Electronic Systems Engineer Integral Informatics Ltd signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts DB API
On Tuesday 18 December 2007 18:52:39 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > What I would quite like to do is to implement something similar to what > has been described, especially since I have found a major bug which only > (yet another) serious component library API change will fix. I'd like to point out that it would be best if it could be done in a way that is actually going to be achievable. For instance, "Rewrite gattrib & gschem to use an entirely new paradigm of separate BOM & schematic" is not achievable. Neither is, "Rewrite libgeda to allow multiple programs to have the file open at once and collaborate using IPC," I'm afraid. Unless someone's volunteering to employ me to do it over next summer, in which case you can have that, but it'll cost you! "Rewrite the component library C & Scheme APIs, and make a new GUI for it in gschem" is achievable (just). Ideally, I'd like to be able to do it in a tidy, self-contained way. Peter -- Peter Brett Electronic Systems Engineer Integral Informatics Ltd signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Parts DB API
On Wed, Dec 19, 2007 at 09:15:03PM +, Peter Clifton wrote: > On Wed, 2007-12-19 at 21:48 +0100, Ivan Stankovic wrote: > > Yes, I have been working on a gattrib rewrite and I've just barely > > got to load/save component attribs. > > If this is in git, it would be great to be able to track progress. Could > you make a fork of the repo gEDA mirror: > http://repo.or.cz/w/geda-gaf.git > and push the changes as and when? Sure, but this will probably not happen before January since I don't have much time right now. > Can this work be applied as an incremental series of improvements, or is > it really a re-write? It really is a rewrite, I'm afraid. Some of the original code will still remain, but most of gattrib will get rewritten. Currently, all my changes are in a single 410 line patch. I should try to break this up, but my main goal is to implement at least 80% gattrib functionality so this will have to wait. > > (The good news is I've been able to greatly reduce code size, at least > > for those features that are implemented.) > > Nice. Does it still use the same GtkSheet widget etc.? Yes, in fact, my newest code just uses GtkSheet as a central entity. I figured if I just put all the data into GtkSheetCell then I wouldn't need various TABLEs anymore, so I now directly load attribs from a file into GtkSheet. (Of course, there has to be some bookkeeping, but the approach has so far shown to be simple and effective.) > > Another thing is that I've not yet fixed the new gattrib architecture > > which seems like a good idea, given the recent discussions on light vs. > > heavy symbols and part databases. Perhaps it would be best to just > > wait for a consensus on geda-user (I'm not sure if that's possible, though, > > but I _am_ hoping) and then begin coding? > > I expect you'll finish your thesis (Masters / PhD?) I think it is equivalent to a Masters thesis, but there are differences (which I am not familiar with). If you are familiar with German, the right term is 'Diplomarbeit'. > before any consensus / design is reached ;) Yes, that'll probably be the case. But you never know. ;) -- Ivan Stankovic, [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Protect your digital freedom and privacy, eliminate DRM, learn more at http://www.defectivebydesign.org/what_is_drm"; ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
