Re: Vendor FPGA tools (was Re: gEDA-user: Re: Pointer to 3d CAD?)
Dave -
On Wed, Nov 08, 2006 at 08:40:26AM -0500, Dave McGuire wrote:
> On Oct 31, 2006, at 1:40 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >After [Xilinx XST is] installed, I too use the command-line-only
> >programs. With some scripting, they embed nicely in my Makefiles.
>
> I've about had it with the Xilinx GUI. Would you be willing to
> share your Makefiles?
Here's a Makefile snippet:
SYNTH = inch.v ad95xx_driver.v source.v freq_count.v trace.v rx_buffer.v
generic_fifo_dc_gray.v generic_dpram.v dds.v cordic.v
# test build, mostly a syntax check
inch: ${SYNTH} BUFG.v
iverilog -DTARGET_s3 -Wall $^ -o $@
# synthesize a bitfile
_xilinx/inch_s3.bit: ${SYNTH}
arch=s3 sh runme inch_s3 $^
where the real work happens in runme, which I will both attach
and post to http://recycle.lbl.gov/~ldoolitt/xilinx/runme
That script is somewhat organic, I have added some odd features
over the past couple of years. Like the ability to automatically
create a .ucf file with timing goals in it based on the comments
in the top level Verilog module:
module stacker(
input clk, // timespec 6.5 ns
input gate,
...
which is useful for keeping track of timing and cell usage for
each of the components of a design.
The other major features of the script are:
- immediate exit with failure if $XILINX is not set
- target chip determined by $arch input
- all 22 scratch and log files pushed into _xilinx directory
- exits with failure if timing constraints not met
One defect in the script is that it doesn't split the synthesis
and P&R steps, so changing the ucf file requires resynthesis.
I find most of the time is spent in the P&R, so my motivation
to split them is small.
I hope this helps. If more than two of us start using a script
like this, I'll post a web page to keep track of ideas and
script variants.
- Larry
# This script places all scratch files, and the resulting .bit file,
# in the _xilinx directory. Tested with XST 7.1i.
# Default architecture is s3
if [ -z "$arch" ]; then arch=s3; fi
if [ "$XILINX" = "" ]; then
echo "set up for Xilinx first" >&2
exit 1
fi
set -e
mkdir -p _xilinx
cd _xilinx
# DESIGN=stacker
DESIGN=$1
shift
PART_s3=xc3s1000-ft256-4
CLOCK_PIN=P125
#PART_s3=xc3s400-ft256-4
#CLOCK_PIN=T9
eval PART=\$PART_$arch
cat <$DESIGN.xst
set -tmpdir .
run
-ifn $DESIGN.prj
-ifmt Verilog
-ofn $DESIGN
-ofmt NGC
-p $PART
-top $DESIGN
-opt_mode Speed
-opt_level 1
-iuc NO
-keep_hierarchy NO
-glob_opt AllClockNets
-rtlview Yes
-read_cores YES
-write_timing_constraints NO
-cross_clock_analysis NO
-hierarchy_separator _
-bus_delimiter <>
-case maintain
-slice_utilization_ratio 100
-verilog2001 YES
-vlgincdir
-fsm_extract YES -fsm_encoding Auto
-ram_extract Yes
-ram_style Auto
-rom_extract Yes
-rom_style Auto
-mux_extract YES
-mux_style Auto
-decoder_extract YES
-priority_extract YES
-shreg_extract YES
-shift_extract YES
-xor_collapse YES
-resource_sharing YES
-iobuf YES
-max_fanout 100
-bufg 4
-register_duplication YES
-equivalent_register_removal YES
-register_balancing No
-slice_packing YES
-iob auto
-slice_utilization_ratio_maxmargin 5
EOT
BOMB=""
toplevel=$1
echo "\`define TARGET_$arch 1" >$DESIGN.prj
for s; do
test -r ../$s || BOMB="$BOMB $s"
echo "\`include \"../$s\""
done >>$DESIGN.prj
# sed -e 's/^/\`include "..\//' -e 's/$/"/' ../$DESIGN.set
echo "\`include \"$XILINX/verilog/src/iSE/unisim_comp.v\"" >>$DESIGN.prj
# If the ${DESIGN}.ucf file doesn't exist, create one based on
# comments in the top level Verilog.
ucf=../${DESIGN}.ucf
if [ ! -r $ucf ]; then
ucf=${DESIGN}.ucf
perl -ne 'if (/(\w+),\s+\/\/ timespec\s+(.+)/) {print "NET \"$1\"
LOC=\"'${CLOCK_PIN}'\";\nNET \"$1\" TNM_NET = \"CLK_1\";\nTIMESPEC \"TS_CLK_1\"
= PERIOD \"CLK_1\" $2 HIGH 50%;\n"}' ../$toplevel >$ucf
fi
test -r $ucf || BOMB="$BOMB $ucf"
if [ -n "$BOMB" ]; then
echo "missing files:$BOMB" >&2
exit 1
fi
# exit
# demote USB_IFCLK error to a WARNING
export XIL_PLACE_ALLOW_LOCAL_BUFG_ROUTING=1
xst -ifn $DESIGN.xst -ofn $DESIGN.syr
ngdbuild -dd . -uc $ucf -p $PART $DESIGN.ngc $DESIGN.ngd
# was "-cm area"
map -p $PART -timing -cm speed -ol high -pr b -k 4 -c 100 -tx off -o
${DESIGN}_map.ncd $DESIGN.ngd $DESIGN.pcf
par -w -ol high -t 1 ${DESIGN}_map.ncd $DESIGN.ncd $DESIGN.pcf
# optional (timing report)
trce -e 3 -l 3 $DESIGN.ncd -o $DESIGN.twr $DESIGN.pcf
if grep "All constraints were met\." $DESIGN.par &&
grep "All signals are completely routed\." $DESIGN.par; then
echo "PAR success confirmed for $DESIGN"
else
echo "PAR apparently failed for $DESIGN"
exit 1
fi
bitgen -w -g StartUpClk:JtagClk $DESIGN.ncd
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Re: Vendor FPGA tools (was Re: gEDA-user: Re: Pointer to 3d CAD?)
On Oct 31, 2006, at 1:40 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've tried it, but got turned off in utter disgust when I saw that the thing is packaged in encrypted (!) ZIPs specifically to make it impossible to bypass their stinky GUI installer. The installer is indeed the worst part of the Xilinx setup. After it's installed, I too use the command-line-only programs. With some scripting, they embed nicely in my Makefiles. I've about had it with the Xilinx GUI. Would you be willing to share your Makefiles? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Re: Pointer to 3d CAD?
Dave McGuire wrote: Are printed organic transistors ready for prime-time? Not quite. Or at least, the processes that work well are kept secret, applied to small displays -- not necessarily easy in a garage shop. But for some things where short lifetime is OK, there are recipes used by grad students these days. As far as cheap, tested, long lasting, there's Conductive polymer material from Agfa. It is maybe a product with 400 Ohms per square with carbon black in it, and a clear blue coating that is 600 Ohms per square transparent blue color. That kind of material is what you make transistors out of too... only Agfa did not respond to a request for prices. They may be in trouble as a company, but it's close to being available as a cheap material -- priced like automotive paint, (but water based low toxic). You process it with oven temperatures like 130 deg C. has to be stored in a fridge 7 deg C to last more than 2 months. Dow and Dupont and Philips have something too...but they seem to be after the big fish right now -- I haven't gotten them to talk. John Griessen ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Re: Pointer to 3d CAD?
On Nov 2, 2006, at 9:16 AM, John Griessen wrote: The education could lead to real world washing machine controller stuff too -- by switching to printed organic transistors...where you can go straight to power handling with the same printed material. Which one is the MSP430 series from? The PDP-11? Yes, oddly enough, the MSP430's instruction set is so similar to that of the PDP-11 that it's somewhat spooky. It sure doesn't look like an accident! ;) Are printed organic transistors ready for prime-time? I've not read anything about them. Although I have an acquaintance who is working on that stuff at a university in the UK, he doesn't often tell of how things are going. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Re: Pointer to 3d CAD?
On Nov 2, 2006, at 10:05 AM, DJ Delorie wrote: Well my tentative plan is to duplicate the functionality of the individual boards, but not to scale. Many DEC machines of that era were built with "Flip Chip" boards, 2.5"x5" PCBs with card-edge connectors that typically implement relatively little logic...say, a pair of flip-flops. When I was a kid, my dad got me some time on a tanker (ship) that was being automated. They had a fridge-sized console that was built that way which ran things. I spent a few days helping them finish the install and teaching them electronics, and they let me ride with them on the sea trials. Oh wow, that must've been a load of fun! I think my watch is more powerful than that was, though. Eh, "power" to me is "gets the job done right". Well, most of the time anyway. They'll have to pry my Crays from my cold, dead fingers. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Re: Pointer to 3d CAD?
> I am looking forward to the day when the receiver will be finished and I can > place a "fully transistorized" and "19 transistors" retro labels on them :) "transistor radio" :-) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Re: Pointer to 3d CAD?
>Well my tentative plan is to duplicate the functionality of the > individual boards, but not to scale. Many DEC machines of that era > were built with "Flip Chip" boards, 2.5"x5" PCBs with card-edge > connectors that typically implement relatively little logic...say, a > pair of flip-flops. When I was a kid, my dad got me some time on a tanker (ship) that was being automated. They had a fridge-sized console that was built that way which ran things. I spent a few days helping them finish the install and teaching them electronics, and they let me ride with them on the sea trials. I think my watch is more powerful than that was, though. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Re: Pointer to 3d CAD?
> Ohh my ohh my... well you do know that, from the William > Gibson/Bruce Sterling novel "The Difference Engine", someone who > writes code for a mechanical babage computational engine is known as > a "clacker"? Yup, I've got that book. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Re: Pointer to 3d CAD?
Dave McGuire wrote:
It all depends on what you're into. I've been discussing a project
with a friend that would involve building what amounts to a copy of the
PDP-8 ("Straight-8", no suffix) with individual transistors. It's fun,
cool, and highly educational in a number of areas.
The education could lead to real world washing machine controller stuff too --
by switching to printed organic transistors...where you can go straight to power
handling with the same printed material. Which one is the MSP430 series from?
The PDP-11?
John G
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Re: gEDA-user: Re: Pointer to 3d CAD?
On Wed, Nov 01, 2006 at 10:58:57PM +, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Steve Meier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Sure why not here is a link to an individual who built a replica of the > > Apollo Guidance System, using discrete components and wire wrap, in his > > basement. > > Of course a discrete logic wire-wrapped computer is cool. There is no > question on that one. But there is also a place for FPGAs. Yes, it > sucks that they require proprietary software. Unfortunately we don't > have the manpower and firepower to annihilate all police and national > guard etc. and seize the CEOs of Altera and Xilinx, connect variacs to > them and slowly ramp up the voltage until they release full specs for > their chips. So we can't open-source that part yet. But we can still > use FPGAs in the meantime to help open-source other things, even if not > the FPGA itself. > > As a specific example, right now I'm working on open-sourcing the SDSL > Internet connection technology. See the project home page I've pointed > to earlier for the gory details. The basic idea is to get rid of the > abominable closed source "modem" provided by the ISP and to replace it > with an Open Source Hardware device that connects directly to the copper > pair and talks the SDSL electrical signal format in open source. When the ISP detects this, he can change the standard and then you have to do the work once more again. Or he puts "only original modem from the ISP is allowed" into the contract. Or what if the ISP starts to telling you what you can do and what you can't? For example, my ISP Cablecom Switzerland says in the contract: 1) they don't guarantee freedom from failures and faults (my modem hangs every couple of days) 2) you are not supposed to load the link 100% from 14pm to the midnight, especially by downloading thinigs from p2p, if you do they can cut you off or limit your rate 3) the rate I pay for is maximum rate, there is no minimum rate 4) The downlink is designated as 4Mbps but it runs 2.2Mbps. The uplink is something horribly slow (it's assymetric). Which pisses me every time I upload photographs and compiled PDF's, postscripts and PNG's on the Ronja website. What is more reliably is getting rid of the abominable ISP and taking the whole infrastructure into your hands. All you need is my device called Ronja http://ronja.twibright.com which communicates 10Mbps full duplex over 1.4km in air with direct visibility using visible or infrared light. Then: 1) Freedom from failures and faults is guaranteed except fog, if a fault comes all you need is go to your roof and fix what you did wrong, or send a bugreport to the Ronja mailing list. 2) you are free to load the link 100% 24/7, it doesn't matter, you don't even see the 100% load on round-trip or web or ssh latency 3) You don't pay any monthly fee. You pay once for the components, the rate is guaranteed to be 10Mbps +/-200ppm. 4) The link is symmetric, full duplex Of course you don't get an Internet connection with this, but if you find more neightbour of friends you can make a LAN and then connect with some professional-grade connection. > > If the SDSL line uses ATM as all newer DSLAMs do, connecting to it > requires an ATM TC-PHY (implementation of I.432.1) and possibly also a > custom framer. Now let's be practical here -- do you think that an > SSI/MSI implementation of those components would make a practically No. That puts up in front of a choice - either do it with FPGA, or bypass it somewhere deeper (Ronja). > ISP? An FPGA implementation easily can, however. Replacing the ISP- > provided box with an open source implementation that uses an FPGA won't > increase the number of closed source components in your house because > the ISP-provided SDSL modem has one too if it's an ATM-based flavor of > SDSL. But the other components of the "modem", i.e., the top level > architecture, the microprocessor firmware, all layer 2 and higher stuff, > will change from closed to open source. Isn't that a worthy goal? > We can open-source SDSL using an Altera FPGA now (the exact same FPGA > used in the current Covad-provided router), while open-sourcing the FPGA > itself will have to wait until we can gather enough manpower and > firepower to annihilate the PD in whatever city harbors the Altera CEO > and hook electrodes to the bastard. > > Another reason why an FPGA saves the day is that there are umpteen > gazillion different flavors of SDSL -- as many as there are DSLAM > vendors, each making their own CPE "modem" with Yet Another proprietary > router OS to fight with. My open SDSL connectivity project seeks to > replace them all with a single open source hardware platform that can > handle all flavors. How would you propose doing that without an FPGA? Do something else instead :) CL< > Practical sensible solutions only please. > > MS > > > ___ > geda-user mailing list > geda-user@moria.seul.org > http://www.se
Re: gEDA-user: Re: Pointer to 3d CAD?
On Thu, Nov 02, 2006 at 12:53:13AM -0500, Dave McGuire wrote:
> On Nov 1, 2006, at 10:58 PM, DJ Delorie wrote:
> >> It all depends on what you're into. I've been discussing a
> >>project with a friend that would involve building what amounts to a
> >>copy of the PDP-8 ("Straight-8", no suffix) with individual
> >>transistors. It's fun, cool, and highly educational in a number of
> >>areas.
> >
> >Are you going to be true to the time and use TO-92, or "cheat" and use
> >SOT-535's?
>
> Well my tentative plan is to duplicate the functionality of the
> individual boards, but not to scale. Many DEC machines of that era
> were built with "Flip Chip" boards, 2.5"x5" PCBs with card-edge
> connectors that typically implement relatively little logic...say, a
> pair of flip-flops. The PDP-8/S, for example (a model I've studied
> much more closely than the Straight-8), uses maybe fifteen different
> types of Flip Chips, but hundreds of them. I'm thinking of cloning
> the functionality of those Flip Chips board-for-board, but much
> smaller, perhaps the size of a large postage stamp, using 0805
> resistors & capacitors and SOT-23 transistors.
>
> Though I have no problem with TO-92 packages, I'm no longer a big
> fan of through-hole components in general...too much of a pain to
> work with when compared with surface-mount, and using smaller parts
> makes for a much smaller...perhaps even desktop...finished unit.
I am prototyping my Ronja RX on TO-92 2N3904. But it's a bit pain in the ass
because I have to cut the base as short as possible and put possible capacitors
hooked to base as short as possible too. Very unhandy for unskilled user.
The final version will be SMD, MMBT3904 or how it is called, which is easier
for ordinary user because there is nothing to botch, and will be smaller. The
electronics is now adding about 10 unnecessary centimeters to the
optical head, with increasing wind resistance and a need for a little
more robust construction.
CL<
>
> I'm very hot to do this, but I won't be able to devote much time
> to it anytime soon, as my employment is going away in a few weeks and
> I'm busy scrambling to find work in the middle of a technological
> wasteland.
>
> >The Museum of Science in Boston has a computer that plays tic tac toe.
> >It's made of wooden Tinker Toys.
>
> That is just too damn cool.
>
> -Dave
>
> --
> Dave McGuire
> Cape Coral, FL
>
>
>
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Re: gEDA-user: Re: Pointer to 3d CAD?
On Wed, Nov 01, 2006 at 10:58:02PM -0500, DJ Delorie wrote:
>
> >It all depends on what you're into. I've been discussing a
> > project with a friend that would involve building what amounts to a
> > copy of the PDP-8 ("Straight-8", no suffix) with individual
> > transistors. It's fun, cool, and highly educational in a number of
> > areas.
Now I am rebuilding the Ronja receiver with individual transistors instead of
the NE592. The dynamic range was low, the chip operated out of the specified
thermal range and you had to pick up transistor pairs with similar
amplification.
Only now I discovered the beauty of symmetric limiting amplifiers, current
sources and cascode configuration. Now I have two stages, the first is
4-transistor and the second 6-transistor. I want to make 3 stages, 6
transistors each and today I have to go into a shop again for another 10
transistors, because I have just 1 left here.
Transistors are cheap. Transistors are fast. Transistors have almost unlimited
operating temperature range. The manufacturer doesn't keep the secrets of
operation away from you. You can implement interesting functions by clever
arrangement of them.
I am looking forward to the day when the receiver will be finished and I can
place a "fully transistorized" and "19 transistors" retro labels on them :)
Finally people will stop asking "where can I get that NE592 circuit"
and "my Ronja doesn't work on short distances". Does it matter if you solder
14 pins of NE592 or 5 3-pin transistors?
CL<
>
> Are you going to be true to the time and use TO-92, or "cheat" and use
> SOT-535's?
>
> The Museum of Science in Boston has a computer that plays tic tac toe.
> It's made of wooden Tinker Toys.
>
>
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Re: gEDA-user: Re: Pointer to 3d CAD?
On Nov 1, 2006, at 10:58 PM, DJ Delorie wrote:
It all depends on what you're into. I've been discussing a
project with a friend that would involve building what amounts to a
copy of the PDP-8 ("Straight-8", no suffix) with individual
transistors. It's fun, cool, and highly educational in a number of
areas.
Are you going to be true to the time and use TO-92, or "cheat" and use
SOT-535's?
Well my tentative plan is to duplicate the functionality of the
individual boards, but not to scale. Many DEC machines of that era
were built with "Flip Chip" boards, 2.5"x5" PCBs with card-edge
connectors that typically implement relatively little logic...say, a
pair of flip-flops. The PDP-8/S, for example (a model I've studied
much more closely than the Straight-8), uses maybe fifteen different
types of Flip Chips, but hundreds of them. I'm thinking of cloning
the functionality of those Flip Chips board-for-board, but much
smaller, perhaps the size of a large postage stamp, using 0805
resistors & capacitors and SOT-23 transistors.
Though I have no problem with TO-92 packages, I'm no longer a big
fan of through-hole components in general...too much of a pain to
work with when compared with surface-mount, and using smaller parts
makes for a much smaller...perhaps even desktop...finished unit.
I'm very hot to do this, but I won't be able to devote much time
to it anytime soon, as my employment is going away in a few weeks and
I'm busy scrambling to find work in the middle of a technological
wasteland.
The Museum of Science in Boston has a computer that plays tic tac toe.
It's made of wooden Tinker Toys.
That is just too damn cool.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Cape Coral, FL
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Re: gEDA-user: Re: Pointer to 3d CAD?
Ohh my ohh my... well you do know that, from the William Gibson/Bruce
Sterling novel "The Difference Engine", someone who writes code for a
mechanical babage computational engine is known as a "clacker"?
DJ Delorie wrote:
>> It all depends on what you're into. I've been discussing a
>>project with a friend that would involve building what amounts to a
>>copy of the PDP-8 ("Straight-8", no suffix) with individual
>>transistors. It's fun, cool, and highly educational in a number of
>>areas.
>>
>
>Are you going to be true to the time and use TO-92, or "cheat" and use
>SOT-535's?
>
>The Museum of Science in Boston has a computer that plays tic tac toe.
>It's made of wooden Tinker Toys.
>
>
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>
>
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Re: gEDA-user: Re: Pointer to 3d CAD?
On Nov 1, 2006, at 11:16 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I once personally diagnosed and replaced a blown diode in a PDP-5. When it blew, it made an accumulator bit stick on, and the machine became unusable. That event caused the machine to be retired from the Caltech Cyclotron. My friends and I found it abandoned many years later, in about 1978. We fixed, refurbished, and played with it. The process was very educational. Most excellent! I bet that was a lot of fun. The PDP-5 was the predecessor to the PDP-8. The big difference between the two was cycle time: 10us for the PDP-5 vs. 4us for the PDP-8, IIRC. Each had 4K x 12 of core memory. It's possible that machine is still kicking around Caltech; if you're interested I could make inquiries. I'm SO interested I can barely put it into words. I am an avid minicomputer collector, with DEC as my specialty, and the PDP-5 is a very rare machine. I've restored many PDP-8 and -11 systems, and I have quite a lot of VAXen (though not so old as to need restoration per se), and I pet them (and run them!) all regularly. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Re: Pointer to 3d CAD?
Dave -
On Wed, Nov 01, 2006 at 09:12:49PM -0500, Dave McGuire wrote:
> It all depends on what you're into. I've been discussing a
> project with a friend that would involve building what amounts to a
> copy of the PDP-8 ("Straight-8", no suffix) with individual
> transistors. It's fun, cool, and highly educational in a number of
> areas.
I once personally diagnosed and replaced a blown diode in a PDP-5.
When it blew, it made an accumulator bit stick on, and the machine
became unusable. That event caused the machine to be retired from
the Caltech Cyclotron. My friends and I found it abandoned many
years later, in about 1978. We fixed, refurbished, and played with
it. The process was very educational.
The PDP-5 was the predecessor to the PDP-8. The big difference
between the two was cycle time: 10us for the PDP-5 vs. 4us for
the PDP-8, IIRC. Each had 4K x 12 of core memory. It's possible
that machine is still kicking around Caltech; if you're interested
I could make inquiries.
- Larry
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Re: gEDA-user: Re: Pointer to 3d CAD?
>It all depends on what you're into. I've been discussing a
> project with a friend that would involve building what amounts to a
> copy of the PDP-8 ("Straight-8", no suffix) with individual
> transistors. It's fun, cool, and highly educational in a number of
> areas.
Are you going to be true to the time and use TO-92, or "cheat" and use
SOT-535's?
The Museum of Science in Boston has a computer that plays tic tac toe.
It's made of wooden Tinker Toys.
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Re: gEDA-user: Re: Pointer to 3d CAD?
On Nov 1, 2006, at 7:35 PM, Steve Meier wrote:
But as you said "Of course a discrete logic wire-wrapped computer is
cool" or a bit nutty but more power to the builder.
It all depends on what you're into. I've been discussing a
project with a friend that would involve building what amounts to a
copy of the PDP-8 ("Straight-8", no suffix) with individual
transistors. It's fun, cool, and highly educational in a number of
areas.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Cape Coral, FL
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Re: gEDA-user: Re: Pointer to 3d CAD?
Michael, I am in the same boat as you we also use altera software because our designs here at MRA Tek are so demanding and complex and need to be in such a small physical volumn that even if descrete components could handle the computational speed that we need (which they don't) we couldn't squeeze them into the board size we need. But as you said "Of course a discrete logic wire-wrapped computer is cool" or a bit nutty but more power to the builder. As far as your project goes I am going to keep an eye on it as I am very unhappy with my sdsl modem. Steve Meier On Wed, 2006-11-01 at 22:58 +, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Steve Meier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Sure why not here is a link to an individual who built a replica of the > > Apollo Guidance System, using discrete components and wire wrap, in his > > basement. > > Of course a discrete logic wire-wrapped computer is cool. There is no > question on that one. But there is also a place for FPGAs. Yes, it > sucks that they require proprietary software. Unfortunately we don't > have the manpower and firepower to annihilate all police and national > guard etc. and seize the CEOs of Altera and Xilinx, connect variacs to > them and slowly ramp up the voltage until they release full specs for > their chips. So we can't open-source that part yet. But we can still > use FPGAs in the meantime to help open-source other things, even if not > the FPGA itself. > > As a specific example, right now I'm working on open-sourcing the SDSL > Internet connection technology. See the project home page I've pointed > to earlier for the gory details. The basic idea is to get rid of the > abominable closed source "modem" provided by the ISP and to replace it > with an Open Source Hardware device that connects directly to the copper > pair and talks the SDSL electrical signal format in open source. > > If the SDSL line uses ATM as all newer DSLAMs do, connecting to it > requires an ATM TC-PHY (implementation of I.432.1) and possibly also a > custom framer. Now let's be practical here -- do you think that an > SSI/MSI implementation of those components would make a practically > usable DSL modem, one that can readily replace the one provided by the > ISP? An FPGA implementation easily can, however. Replacing the ISP- > provided box with an open source implementation that uses an FPGA won't > increase the number of closed source components in your house because > the ISP-provided SDSL modem has one too if it's an ATM-based flavor of > SDSL. But the other components of the "modem", i.e., the top level > architecture, the microprocessor firmware, all layer 2 and higher stuff, > will change from closed to open source. Isn't that a worthy goal? > We can open-source SDSL using an Altera FPGA now (the exact same FPGA > used in the current Covad-provided router), while open-sourcing the FPGA > itself will have to wait until we can gather enough manpower and > firepower to annihilate the PD in whatever city harbors the Altera CEO > and hook electrodes to the bastard. > > Another reason why an FPGA saves the day is that there are umpteen > gazillion different flavors of SDSL -- as many as there are DSLAM > vendors, each making their own CPE "modem" with Yet Another proprietary > router OS to fight with. My open SDSL connectivity project seeks to > replace them all with a single open source hardware platform that can > handle all flavors. How would you propose doing that without an FPGA? > Practical sensible solutions only please. > > MS > > > ___ > geda-user mailing list > geda-user@moria.seul.org > http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Re: Pointer to 3d CAD?
Steve Meier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Sure why not here is a link to an individual who built a replica of the > Apollo Guidance System, using discrete components and wire wrap, in his > basement. Of course a discrete logic wire-wrapped computer is cool. There is no question on that one. But there is also a place for FPGAs. Yes, it sucks that they require proprietary software. Unfortunately we don't have the manpower and firepower to annihilate all police and national guard etc. and seize the CEOs of Altera and Xilinx, connect variacs to them and slowly ramp up the voltage until they release full specs for their chips. So we can't open-source that part yet. But we can still use FPGAs in the meantime to help open-source other things, even if not the FPGA itself. As a specific example, right now I'm working on open-sourcing the SDSL Internet connection technology. See the project home page I've pointed to earlier for the gory details. The basic idea is to get rid of the abominable closed source "modem" provided by the ISP and to replace it with an Open Source Hardware device that connects directly to the copper pair and talks the SDSL electrical signal format in open source. If the SDSL line uses ATM as all newer DSLAMs do, connecting to it requires an ATM TC-PHY (implementation of I.432.1) and possibly also a custom framer. Now let's be practical here -- do you think that an SSI/MSI implementation of those components would make a practically usable DSL modem, one that can readily replace the one provided by the ISP? An FPGA implementation easily can, however. Replacing the ISP- provided box with an open source implementation that uses an FPGA won't increase the number of closed source components in your house because the ISP-provided SDSL modem has one too if it's an ATM-based flavor of SDSL. But the other components of the "modem", i.e., the top level architecture, the microprocessor firmware, all layer 2 and higher stuff, will change from closed to open source. Isn't that a worthy goal? We can open-source SDSL using an Altera FPGA now (the exact same FPGA used in the current Covad-provided router), while open-sourcing the FPGA itself will have to wait until we can gather enough manpower and firepower to annihilate the PD in whatever city harbors the Altera CEO and hook electrodes to the bastard. Another reason why an FPGA saves the day is that there are umpteen gazillion different flavors of SDSL -- as many as there are DSLAM vendors, each making their own CPE "modem" with Yet Another proprietary router OS to fight with. My open SDSL connectivity project seeks to replace them all with a single open source hardware platform that can handle all flavors. How would you propose doing that without an FPGA? Practical sensible solutions only please. MS ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Re: Pointer to 3d CAD?
Sure why not here is a link to an individual who built a replica of the Apollo Guidance System, using discrete components and wire wrap, in his basement. http://www.spaceref.com/exploration/apollo/acgreplica/ Steve M. On Wed, 2006-11-01 at 17:49 +, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Karel Kulhavy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > If you don't need high complexity circuits, then you can implement things > > from > > medium-scale integrated circuits instead of FPGA, and then you don't have to > > use proprietary software :) > > Care to implement a Nokia SDSL framer and an ATM TC-PHY in MSI? > > http://ifctfvax.Harhan.ORG/OpenSDSL/ > > Or try a VAX CPU... :-) > > MS > > > ___ > geda-user mailing list > geda-user@moria.seul.org > http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Re: Pointer to 3d CAD?
Karel Kulhavy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > If you don't need high complexity circuits, then you can implement things from > medium-scale integrated circuits instead of FPGA, and then you don't have to > use proprietary software :) Care to implement a Nokia SDSL framer and an ATM TC-PHY in MSI? http://ifctfvax.Harhan.ORG/OpenSDSL/ Or try a VAX CPU... :-) MS ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Re: Pointer to 3d CAD?
Karel Kulhavy wrote: The free download version of Quartus-II I found seems to need WINE and (no cost) keys. Can you confirm that, or did I do something wrong? I'm not using that version, I'm using the native Linux version. You can I have OpenBSD. Is there also a native OpenBSD version? :) And btw, reasonably recent wine doesn't work on OpenBSD :) doesn't OpenBSD run linux binaries? I run linux binaries on a NetBSD box all the time. -Dan ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Re: Pointer to 3d CAD?
On Tue, Oct 31, 2006 at 05:05:21AM +, Michael Sokolov wrote: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > Ditto for the Xilinx toolchain on my box. At least once you are > > registered, get the free-as-in-beer download, Xilinx XST works natively > > and without monkeying with license keys. > > I've tried it, but got turned off in utter disgust when I saw that the > thing is packaged in encrypted (!) ZIPs specifically to make it > impossible to bypass their stinky GUI installer. > > > The free download version > > of Quartus-II I found seems to need WINE and (no cost) keys. > > Can you confirm that, or did I do something wrong? > > I'm not using that version, I'm using the native Linux version. You can I have OpenBSD. Is there also a native OpenBSD version? :) And btw, reasonably recent wine doesn't work on OpenBSD :) CL< > download it from ftp.altera.com:/outgoing/release. It's a normal tar > file containing .tar.gz's inside, no GUIs crammed down your throat. In > fact I can't even use its GUI at all, only the command line utilities > because my bootleg license file only has FEATURE quartus but not the > other FEATURE (altera_mainwin_lnx or quartus_mainwin_lnx, something like > that) that enables the GUI. But that's perfectly fine with me because > command line tools are exactly what I want, my 80-column mind can't > handle GUI. > > MS > > > ___ > geda-user mailing list > geda-user@moria.seul.org > http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Re: Pointer to 3d CAD?
On Mon, Oct 30, 2006 at 11:45:08PM +, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Kai-Martin Knaak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > That's why varicad is the only non open source software on my box. > ^^^ > > So you don't work with FPGAs then, huh? The FPGA compiler (Altera > Quartus, Linux/x86 version) is the only sans-source piece of software > that I grudgingly put up with in my environment. If you don't need high complexity circuits, then you can implement things from medium-scale integrated circuits instead of FPGA, and then you don't have to use proprietary software :) http://ronja.twibright.com/schematics/twister2/twister2.png CL< > > MS > > > ___ > geda-user mailing list > geda-user@moria.seul.org > http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Vendor FPGA tools (was Re: gEDA-user: Re: Pointer to 3d CAD?)
Michael - On Tue, Oct 31, 2006 at 05:05:21AM +, Michael Sokolov wrote: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > Ditto for the Xilinx toolchain on my box. [chop] > I've tried it, but got turned off in utter disgust when I saw that the > thing is packaged in encrypted (!) ZIPs specifically to make it > impossible to bypass their stinky GUI installer. The installer is indeed the worst part of the Xilinx setup. After it's installed, I too use the command-line-only programs. With some scripting, they embed nicely in my Makefiles. > > The free download version [of Quartus-II] [chop] > I'm not using that version, I'm using the native Linux version. You can > download it from ftp.altera.com:/outgoing/release. Thanks for the pointer! - Larry ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Re: Pointer to 3d CAD?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Ditto for the Xilinx toolchain on my box. At least once you are > registered, get the free-as-in-beer download, Xilinx XST works natively > and without monkeying with license keys. I've tried it, but got turned off in utter disgust when I saw that the thing is packaged in encrypted (!) ZIPs specifically to make it impossible to bypass their stinky GUI installer. > The free download version > of Quartus-II I found seems to need WINE and (no cost) keys. > Can you confirm that, or did I do something wrong? I'm not using that version, I'm using the native Linux version. You can download it from ftp.altera.com:/outgoing/release. It's a normal tar file containing .tar.gz's inside, no GUIs crammed down your throat. In fact I can't even use its GUI at all, only the command line utilities because my bootleg license file only has FEATURE quartus but not the other FEATURE (altera_mainwin_lnx or quartus_mainwin_lnx, something like that) that enables the GUI. But that's perfectly fine with me because command line tools are exactly what I want, my 80-column mind can't handle GUI. MS ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Re: Pointer to 3d CAD?
Friends - On Mon, Oct 30, 2006 at 11:45:08PM +, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Kai-Martin Knaak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > That's why varicad is the only non open source software on my box. > So you don't work with FPGAs then, huh? The FPGA compiler (Altera > Quartus, Linux/x86 version) is the only sans-source piece of software > that I grudgingly put up with in my environment. Ditto for the Xilinx toolchain on my box. At least once you are registered, get the free-as-in-beer download, Xilinx XST works natively and without monkeying with license keys. The free download version of Quartus-II I found seems to need WINE and (no cost) keys. Can you confirm that, or did I do something wrong? - Larry ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Re: Pointer to 3d CAD?
Kai-Martin Knaak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > That's why varicad is the only non open source software on my box. ^^^ So you don't work with FPGAs then, huh? The FPGA compiler (Altera Quartus, Linux/x86 version) is the only sans-source piece of software that I grudgingly put up with in my environment. MS ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
gEDA-user: Re: Pointer to 3d CAD?
On Mon, 30 Oct 2006 11:27:59 -0800, Dave N6NZ wrote: > Off topic I know, but I need a pointer. Is there a decent FOSS 3D CAD > program that will create STL files for simple parts? No. Even commercial 3D CAD programs that run on linux are few. I know just one. That's why varicad is the only non open source software on my box. ---<(kaimartin)>--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak http://lilalaser.de/blog ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
