Re: Question about proposal champions
Hi guys, Thanks for the info. My primary goal in proposing this project for incubation is to build a developer community. If Apache Labs is a better place to start, that's fine - I'll look into that. FYI, the current source code for the project is here: https://github.com/gk-brown/WebRPC If anyone is interested in contributing, please let me know! Thanks, Greg > On Nov 5, 2015, at 11:08 AM, Christian Grobmeier wrote: > > Hi Greg, > > from my experience it has proven to be very hard to start > single-man-shows here. The Incubator works best if there is an active > community already. > > If you are a sole person, you might also consider labs.apache.org. Some > people say, Labs is for experiments, and when there is a community, go > to the Incubator. > > Personally, if you have no plan how to get new people on-board, or if > nobody else here is interested in becoming a committer, or if your > project is not Hadoop related :-), then you should first start building > a community. > > If you don't have at least three committers, you will als not be be able > to cut a release. > > Cheers, > Christian > >> On Thu, Nov 5, 2015, at 14:53, Greg Brown wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> I've been out of the Apache loop for a while, but I have a new project >> I'd like to propose for incubation. I know new Incubator projects require >> a champion. As an ASF member myself, can I act as my own champion, or >> does another member need to act as champion on my behalf? >> >> It certainly wouldn't hurt to have another champion for the project >> since, to date, I've been the only committer. Just wanted to ask the >> question before I got started on the actual proposal. >> >> Thanks, >> Greg >> >> >> - >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Question about proposal champions
Hi all, I've been out of the Apache loop for a while, but I have a new project I'd like to propose for incubation. I know new Incubator projects require a champion. As an ASF member myself, can I act as my own champion, or does another member need to act as champion on my behalf? It certainly wouldn't hurt to have another champion for the project since, to date, I've been the only committer. Just wanted to ask the question before I got started on the actual proposal. Thanks, Greg - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [PROPOSAL] Apache DeviceMap, a data repository and APIs for mobile device information
+1 Sounds very useful! G On Dec 23, 2011, at 9:32 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: > Hi Incubator PMC, > > The proposal at http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/DeviceMapProposal > (copied below) is open for discussion, I'm planning to start the vote > to accept it sometime next week. … - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Pivot graduation
The Pivot project has also graduated! We too would like to extend our thanks to the Incubator PMC - your input and guidance has been extremely valuable and has helped us to gain a truly solid understanding of what it means to be an Apache project. We also sincerely appreciate the time you have donated in support of the project. Pivot has produced THREE major releases during its stay in the Incubator - that is no small achievement, and we couldn't have done it without your help! To echo Gurkan's sentiments, we are also very proud to be part of the Apache family. Thank you! Greg Brown, Apache Pivot - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: incorrect terminology: lead developers
If I can attempt to summarize, there is a difference between the *concept* of a leader and the *title* of a leader here at ASF (please correct me if I am wrong). In Pivot's status report, we were attempting to capture the concept, not the title. However, since it is a loaded term, it makes more sense to avoid it altogether. I'll update the status report accordingly. Greg - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: incorrect terminology: lead developers
Traditionally the "leadership" comes from the membership of the Project Management Committee. People tend to take on a variety of roles within a project, some being more leader-follower type roles and others revolving around a small team that shares collective control over direction of the project. We tend to prefer the latter over the former. Of course. This inevitably produces a stronger end result. Those micro-structures aren't formally recognized as they tend to change over time and can be percieved as diminutive to people occupying less leadership type roles. To me, it's not a question of formal recognition but de facto status (which may, and is likely to, change over time). - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: incorrect terminology: lead developers
Thanks, Niclas. Very appropriate material. This very clearly draws a distinction between the terms "leader" (as I have been attempting to use it) and "manager" (by which I would never describe myself). IMO, successful projects (including those at ASF) need leadership, not "management". So describing myself, or any other committer, as a "leader" is not an attempt to assert authority or otherwise. It is simply a means of describing a level of committment. On Aug 10, 2009, at 11:23 PM, Niclas Hedhman wrote: I have had a long chat with Greg, and I think I can somewhat understand his angle. Taken from Wikipedia; * Management involves power by position. * Leadership involves power by influence. * Managers administer; leaders innovate. * Managers ask how and when; leaders ask what and why. * Managers focus on systems; leaders focus on people. * Managers do things right; leaders do the right things. * Managers maintain; leaders develop. * Managers rely on control; leaders inspire trust. * Managers have short-term perspective; leaders have long-term perspective. * Managers accept the status-quo; leaders challenge the status-quo. * Managers have an eye on the bottom line; leaders have an eye on the horizon. * Managers imitate; leaders originate. * Managers emulate the classic good soldier; leaders are their own person. * Managers copy; leaders show originality. And with such backdrop, I think Greg is more of "Leader of the Race" than the "Nation's Leader", and we undoubtedly have many of those in various projects. The skill is to entice others to step up and become leaders (of the above definition) in their own right, and with asserting the negative notions of "leadership" such as Control. -- Niclas On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 10:38 AM, Greg Brown wrote: Apologies. I'm fired up about another discussion on the pivot-dev list and I'm letting it bleed over here. My assertion stands, though. I don't think that it is realistic to think that any non-trivial project can be effectively guided without some concept of leadership. Do others on this list share David's opinion? If so, how do you think such projects should be managed? On Aug 10, 2009, at 10:23 PM, Greg Brown wrote: Ordinarily, I'd refrain from comment on a topic such as this. But I think it's pretty unrealistic to consider any project, especially one of Pivot's magnitude, to be practically fostered without any kind of "leader". I don't claim authority, and I don't think that my vote counts any more than anyone else's. However, I don't think *any* project is likely to be successful without some kind of vision behind it, and, from my experience, that's typically driven by a handful of individuals. Yes, there are lots of other contributors without whom a project would not be successful. But to say that there is no such concept as a "leading developer" is a fallacy. If that's an idea that's too foreign to the ASF, then perhaps Pivot doesn't belong here. On Aug 10, 2009, at 9:15 PM, David Crossley wrote: This is a general comment to everyone. It is finally triggered by this month's report from Pivot. There is no such concept at the ASF as "leading developer". Yes i know that the Jira issue tracker is misleading, as it has an incorrect label on its interface: "Project Lead" https://issues.apache.org/jira/secure/BrowseProjects.jspa Some projects get around that by referring to "Xxx Developers". However today i am not really concerned about Jira. It is the use of the term in board reports and such, that indicates an issue. -David - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org -- Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer http://www.qi4j.org - New Energy for Java I live here; http://tinyurl.com/2qq9er I work here; http://tinyurl.com/2ymelc I relax here; http://tinyurl.com/2cgsug - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: incorrect terminology: lead developers
OK, then I'll try to provide more clarification. I don't understand how a project without leadership can succeed. I don't care what you call it, someone needs to drive the process. I'm not talking about an implication of authority or a higher degree of ownership - I'm talking strictly about making things happen. If that's not a "leader", then what is it, in ASF terms? Note that "leader" does not necessarily mean "singular" (i.e. "dictator"). Most projects have multiple leaders. IMO, a project without a "leader" (or leaders), will go nowhere. G On Aug 10, 2009, at 11:18 PM, Joe Schaefer wrote: - Original Message From: Greg Brown To: general@incubator.apache.org Sent: Monday, August 10, 2009 11:12:36 PM Subject: Re: incorrect terminology: lead developers We don't have a notion of fixed leadership at Apache. Leadership is always welcome but it is determined by the will of the group in question at a given point in time, not based on one's official status. We try to avoid status symbols in order to retain the fair balance of individual decision making within our projects. Of course. My issue is with the idea that a project can be successful in the absence of any kind of leadership. So maybe some clarification on terminology is in order... I thought David's explanation that we don't us the phrase "project leads" at Apache was fairly straightforward ;-). - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: incorrect terminology: lead developers
We don't have a notion of fixed leadership at Apache. Leadership is always welcome but it is determined by the will of the group in question at a given point in time, not based on one's official status. We try to avoid status symbols in order to retain the fair balance of individual decision making within our projects. Of course. My issue is with the idea that a project can be successful in the absence of any kind of leadership. So maybe some clarification on terminology is in order... - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: incorrect terminology: lead developers
Apologies. I'm fired up about another discussion on the pivot-dev list and I'm letting it bleed over here. My assertion stands, though. I don't think that it is realistic to think that any non-trivial project can be effectively guided without some concept of leadership. Do others on this list share David's opinion? If so, how do you think such projects should be managed? On Aug 10, 2009, at 10:23 PM, Greg Brown wrote: Ordinarily, I'd refrain from comment on a topic such as this. But I think it's pretty unrealistic to consider any project, especially one of Pivot's magnitude, to be practically fostered without any kind of "leader". I don't claim authority, and I don't think that my vote counts any more than anyone else's. However, I don't think *any* project is likely to be successful without some kind of vision behind it, and, from my experience, that's typically driven by a handful of individuals. Yes, there are lots of other contributors without whom a project would not be successful. But to say that there is no such concept as a "leading developer" is a fallacy. If that's an idea that's too foreign to the ASF, then perhaps Pivot doesn't belong here. On Aug 10, 2009, at 9:15 PM, David Crossley wrote: This is a general comment to everyone. It is finally triggered by this month's report from Pivot. There is no such concept at the ASF as "leading developer". Yes i know that the Jira issue tracker is misleading, as it has an incorrect label on its interface: "Project Lead" https://issues.apache.org/jira/secure/BrowseProjects.jspa Some projects get around that by referring to "Xxx Developers". However today i am not really concerned about Jira. It is the use of the term in board reports and such, that indicates an issue. -David - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: incorrect terminology: lead developers
Ordinarily, I'd refrain from comment on a topic such as this. But I think it's pretty unrealistic to consider any project, especially one of Pivot's magnitude, to be practically fostered without any kind of "leader". I don't claim authority, and I don't think that my vote counts any more than anyone else's. However, I don't think *any* project is likely to be successful without some kind of vision behind it, and, from my experience, that's typically driven by a handful of individuals. Yes, there are lots of other contributors without whom a project would not be successful. But to say that there is no such concept as a "leading developer" is a fallacy. If that's an idea that's too foreign to the ASF, then perhaps Pivot doesn't belong here. On Aug 10, 2009, at 9:15 PM, David Crossley wrote: This is a general comment to everyone. It is finally triggered by this month's report from Pivot. There is no such concept at the ASF as "leading developer". Yes i know that the Jira issue tracker is misleading, as it has an incorrect label on its interface: "Project Lead" https://issues.apache.org/jira/secure/BrowseProjects.jspa Some projects get around that by referring to "Xxx Developers". However today i am not really concerned about Jira. It is the use of the term in board reports and such, that indicates an issue. -David - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Graduation of Apache Pivot
[I presume the three browns above are all one in the same person.) Yes - all me. :-) I believe they reflect my user name on the various SVN repositories in which Pivot has resided (java.net, Google Code, and now ASF). - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Graduation of Apache Pivot
Its still good to have some minimal diversity of the active committers and right now it looks like Pivot only has two people actively committing code and they're both from the same employer. It may be worth noting that Pivot is not technically a "VMware project". Todd and I work on Pivot on our own time. We just happen to work for the same company. :-) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
RE: [VOTE] Release Apache Pivot 1.1 (second try)
>> p.s. on the trunk, we've just migrated the demos sub-project and the >> JFreeChart provider off of the ASF repository for good > >Were they license incompatible? I'd really like to have demos at the ASF, >not just the core code. But they should be demos that the project is >willing to maintain. The JFree project was not compatible. Some of the examples in the demos project were compatible, but it would have been a larger effort to split this into multiple projects. However, the tutorials project also contains a large number of demos, and this will remain in the ASF repository (it has no external dependencies). We will continue to maintain all three projects. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Release Apache Pivot 1.1 (second try)
>There are rules as to what 3rd party dependencies are allowed. > >For example, LGPL dependencies cannot be included in distributions; >furthermore, any such dependencies must be optional. That is not >something that can be fixed later. We don't have any LGPL libraries in the distribution - only in SVN, for some demos that aren't actually included in the distribution artifacts. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Release Apache Pivot 1.1 (second try)
>I've just tried a build on Win/XP, Java 1.6.0. > >This reports quite a few compilation warnings, for example: > >[javac] wtk\src\pivot\wtk\content\TreeViewFileRenderer.java:34: >warning: sun.awt.shell.ShellFolder > is Sun proprietary API and may be removed in a future release ... >Does Pivot only work on Sun JVMs? The ability to display native file system icons only worked on Sun JVMs. However, we have since removed this feature. It won't be included in the next release. >Also, the build file does not seem to run any tests, it only compiles them. Correct. Tests are currently run manually. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [VOTE] Release Apache Pivot 1.1 (second try)
>One minor problem I noticed: the LICENSE file contains some odd >characters towards the end which don't display well. Looks like it is encoded in UTF-8 for some reason (the others appear to use standard ASCII). We can easily change that, if necessary. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [Vote] Release Apache Pivot 1.1
PMC Members, It has been almost a week since we put this release to a vote. We think we've covered all the bases and would really like to get it out the door. Again, the release artifacts and RAT report are here: http://people.apache.org/~tvolkert/pivot/ Please take a few moments to vote on this release. We really appreciate it. Thanks, Greg Brown Pivot Development Lead On Monday, April 13, 2009, at 07:32AM, "Todd Volkert" wrote: >> web/lib/servlet-api.jar : It looks like you mention this under your >> notice file but I don' t see details about it's license. > >I wasn't sure how to handle our external binary dependencies, so I >asked on our podling's dev@ list (http://tinyurl.com/djr37w). In the >case of this file, the answer seemed to be that there was no issue >with including it. I interpreted that as not needing anything in the >NOTICE or LICENSE file, but if that's not true, then I'll make changes >as necessary. > >> wtk/lib/plugin.jar : I don' t see this mentioned in notice or license > >This file is included in the JRE, which we list as a system >requirement. We only include it in the source distribution because >it's not in the classpath by default when you compile, so we had to >put it in a known place. > >> wtk/stax-api1.0-jar : There was some discussion about the license of >> this jar in legal-discuss recently (see. LEGAL-42 [1]), and looks like >> people have been recommending using the jar from Geronimo which is >> under Apache license (geronimo-stax-api_1.0_spec-1.0.1.jar) > >I hadn't seen that ticket, but the version we used is from >http://stax.codehaus.org/, which is also licensed under Apache 2.0, so >it should be good to go. > >> In general, the notice file in the distribution mention couple of >> other licenses (e.g CPL 1.0, Java EE Servlet specification, BSD, etc) >> which are not appended on the LICENSE file.See [2] for more detail. > >I had read the best practices when building my NOTICE and LICENSE >file, and it states "The artifacts and documents to which each >subsidiary clause applies should be indicated in the document.", so >what I did at the time was to read each license to see which ones >required me to provide a copy of their license (BSD did). CCA and CPL >didn't specify that I needed to include a copy of their license in my >distribution. CCA was possibly ambiguous in this case, but that >license only applies to the silk icons, which clarify any such >ambiguity on their home page: http://www.famfamfam.com/lab/icons/silk/ >-- "All I ask is that you include a link back to this page in your >credits" > >All that being said, I'm happy to include the CCA and CPL licenses in >our LICENSE file if that's a deal breaker for 1.1. And in any case, >I'll add those licenses to that file for future releases just to make >sure we cover all bases in the future. > >- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org >For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Fwd: Re: pivot copyrights/?/
Hi all, I posted this to legal-disc...@apache.org last week, but I thought I would re-post here in case anyone had any insight. Given that VMware has signed a software grant for the Pivot codebase, is the project obligated to retain a VMware copyright notice in the source code headers, or is mention in the notice file sufficient? Thanks, Greg >From: "Greg Brown" >To: >Date: March 20, 2009 09:05:43 AM EDT >Subject: Re: pivot copyrights/?/ > >Hello, > >A question recently came up on the pivot-dev mailing list about copyright >notices. One of the project mentors suggested that, if the code was provided >via a software grant, the original copyright notice should be replaced with >the standard Apache header; see below. Is this correct? > >Thanks, >Greg Brown >Pivot Project Lead > >On Friday, March 20, 2009, at 08:06AM, "Martijn Dashorst" > wrote: >>Did the software come in through a grant? >> >>I'm pretty sure the copyright notice should be removed, and replaced >>with the boilerplate Apache license header, and add VMWare in the >>notice file. >> >>Though you might want to contact legal-discuss@ before taking any action. >> >>Martijn >> >>On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 4:06 PM, Greg Brown wrote: >>> Todd and I work for VMware, so they hold a copyright on the code. >>> >>> On Thursday, March 19, 2009, at 10:47AM, "John Pritchard" >>> wrote: >>>>um.. did i read in your blog on java.net that you wrote pivot from >>>>scratch.?. so how does VMware, Inc enter ? >>>> >>>> >>>>Can you elaborate on this? That's standard VMware boilerplate. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > someone needs to fix those odd "Copyright VMware, Inc" statements.. >>>>> > >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> >>-- >>Become a Wicket expert, learn from the best: http://wicketinaction.com >>Apache Wicket 1.3.5 is released >>Get it now: http://www.apache.org/dyn/closer.cgi/wicket/1.3. >> >> > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [Vote Summary] Accept Pivot into incubation.
Great news! We can't wait to get started. Thank you! On Sunday, January 25, 2009, at 03:58AM, "Niclas Hedhman" wrote: >On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 3:10 PM, Niclas Hedhman wrote: >> The Pivot team would like to present the Pivot toolkit for incubation >> at the Apache Incubator. > >We got 9 votes, all in favor, and of which 8 are binding. > >Noel Bergman >Martijn Dashorst >Betrand Delacretaz >Bernd Fondermann >Simone Gianni (non-binding) >Niclas Hedhman >Craig Russell >Upayavira >Matthias Wessendorf > >The vote passes and I will proceed to work with Pivot team to get them set up. > >Pivot, welcome to Apache Incubator!! > > >Cheers >Niclas Hedhman >-- >http://www.qi4j.org - New Energy for Java > >- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org >For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: [PROPOSAL] Pivot
Thanks, Martijn. I've added you to the mentor list. Greg On Tuesday, January 06, 2009, at 08:02AM, "Martijn Dashorst" wrote: >Count me in. > >Martijn > >On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 10:46 AM, Niclas Hedhman wrote: >> On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 4:34 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz >> wrote: >> >>> The proposal looks good to me but IMO needs at least one more mentor, >>> preferably two more. >> >> Totally Agree. Did I hear you volunteering?? ;-) >> >> Anybody else? >> >> >> Cheers >> Niclas >> >> - >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org >> >> > > > >-- >Become a Wicket expert, learn from the best: http://wicketinaction.com >Apache Wicket 1.3.4 is released >Get it now: http://www.apache.org/dyn/closer.cgi/wicket/1.3. > >- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org >For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
[PROPOSAL] Pivot
Hello all, The Pivot team would like to present the Pivot toolkit for consideration to the Apache Incubator. We are excited about the prospect of joining the Incubator and are looking forward to your feedback. Thanks, Greg Brown Abstract Pivot (http://pivot-toolkit.org) is an open-source platform for building rich internet applications in Java. Proposal Pivot combines the enhanced productivity and usability features of a modern RIA toolkit with the robustness of the Java platform. Pivot applications are written using a combination of Java and XML and can be run either as an applet or as a standalone, optionally offline, desktop application. Like other modern development platforms, Pivot provides a comprehensive set of foundation classes that together comprise a "framework". These classes form the building blocks upon which more complex and sophisticated applications can be built. Pivot was designed to be familiar to web developers who have experience building AJAX applications using HTML, CSS, and JavaScript. However, it provides a much richer set of standard widgets than HTML, and allows developers to create sophisticated user experiences much more quickly and easily. Pivot will also seem familiar to Swing developers, as both Swing and Pivot are based on Java2D and employ a model-view-controller (MVC) architecture to separate component data from presentation. However, Pivot includes additional features that make building modern GUI applications much easier, including declarative UI, data binding, effects and transitions, and web services integration. Background The web has become the defacto standard method for application delivery. However, functional requirements for web applications have begun to scale beyond the capabilities of the browser. Even with the addition of scripting support, dynamic element manipulation, and asynchronous server communication, it is difficult to create a user experience in HTML that is truly on par with that of a desktop application. Rich internet application (RIA) development platforms are a means of bridging the gap between the web and desktop experiences. Using browser plugins, these platforms allow developers to build applications that look and feel more like native desktop applications but are deployable via the web, like traditional, HTML-based web applications. RIAs also often incorporate visual effects intended to enhance the overall user experience, such as animations and other dynamic behavior. Adobe Flex (http://www.adobe.com/products/flex) and Microsoft Silverlight (http://www.microsoft.com/silverlight) are arguably the most high-profile of these platforms; others include OpenLaszlo (http://www.openlaszlo.org ) and Curl (http://www.curl.com). Pivot itself falls into this category. Rationale Pivot was created for two primary reasons: 1) To provide a viable option for developers who want to build rich client applications in Java. Flex applications are written in ActionScript, an ECMAScript variant; Silverlight applications can be written in either C# or JavaScript; OpenLaszlo applications are written in JavaScript. Pivot allows developers to write rich internet applications in Java (or any other language that can run in a JVM). 2) Provide a freely-available, open source alternative for RIA developers. Flex, Silverlight, and Curl are all proprietary platforms. We believe that a large part of HTML's success was its due to its openness. While we certainly hope that developers will use Pivot to build revenue-generating products and applications, we believe that the platform itself should be free and driven by its technological merits, not by corporate objectives. - Comparision to Other Java-Based RIA Platforms Swing While it is technically feasible to build an RIA in Java using the Swing toolkit (http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/uiswing), Pivot offers a number of advantages that make it a more compelling, modern alternative: - Provides an XML markup language called WTKX for simplifying user interface construction. Flex, Silverlight, and OpenLaszlo all offer a similar feature; web developers are comfortable with the markup metaphor, and it can considerably reduce overall development time. - Components are not limited to an "atomic" preferred size; they are allowed to report a preferred size as constrained by either width or height - this facilitates such features as label wrapping, which Swing does not support. - Defines a consistent data model that is used throughout the entire framework; for example, JSON data returned from a REST service is serialized into the same data structures used by a table view component to present data. No additional translation is necessary, which can significantly improve performance. A common data model also reduces the learning curve for new develope
Re: Pivot Proposal
>All in all, appears to be a very nice proposal. :-) Thanks. :-) >You might want to reorganize and elaborate a bit. In particular, you list >Flex, Silverlight, and OpenLazlo up top, but you don't appear to compare >against them, whereas JavaFX is mentioned and compared against in a sort of >buried location, and are others in the Java RIA space, such as GWT, are not >mentioned at all. Good points. I restructured that section to more clearly articulate how Pivot differs from those platforms, and I added a section comparing Pivot to GWT (currently just stubbed out - will provide more detail later). >I'd also be interested to know how you feel it might relate to projects such >as MyFaces (JSF) where one could imagine rich client components as plums in >a JSP pudding. Given your own references to AJAX and the existence of AJAX >components for JSF, the question seems begged. I don't see any reason why Pivot couldn't be used in conjunction with something like MyFaces (or any other server-side framework). We actually tried to generate some interest in the Grails community along these lines earlier in the year, but we didn't have much luck. >Have you done anything about allowing WS-* (WSDL) Web Services, in addition >to REST style? Are there any issues? Or would we use REST to reach >server-side, and go to WS-* type service from the server? Pivot includes "out-of-the-box" support for REST-style web queries, but Pivot apps are not limited to REST for server communication. Because it runs in a JRE (as you noted), a Pivot application can take advantage of any client/server protocol that has a Java API. You could use Axis to talk to SOAP-based services, and the source code includes a demo app that talks to a Flex RPC server; see http://java.dzone.com/news/calling-flex-data-services-piv. >So this looks quite >appealing so far, although startup time is slower than I would like, and I >am wondering about footprint. >From our experience, startup time when running in J6u10+ is vastly improved >over earlier versions, though it is certainly still an issue for users running >pre-J6u10 JVMs. Memory footprint is comparable to an AJAX application and can >often be less - large-scale AJAX applications can become quite heavy. >Given that the core of your client side appears to be a Java Applet, you >might wish to know that I have been to your site and been running the demos >under Firefox 3 with Sun's newly released 64-bit Java plugin for linux. Hopefully the experience was positive? I'm not sure if we've tested that configuration yet. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Champion needed for Incubator proposal
Looks like that link didn't come through quite right. The message I was referring to is dated Fri, 21 Nov, 15:07. In any event, the Swing issues will be reviewed in more detail in the proposal. On Thursday, December 18, 2008, at 08:25PM, "Greg Brown" wrote: >I'll admit that I'm not terribly familiar with Spring Rich Client, but it >appears to be based on Swing. We believe that Swing has a number of inherent >limitations that make it a less than ideal foundation for future development >(http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/200811.mbox/%3c67680424603268227004897560511504893720-webm...@me.com%3e). > >However, I agree that collaborating on a common framework would be desirable. >We would like to see Pivot become that common framework. > >Greg > >On Thursday, December 18, 2008, at 03:49PM, "melutovich" > wrote: >> >>What is the difference between Pivot and Spring Rich Client? Wouldn't it be >>better to work together on a single framework? >>-- >>View this message in context: >>http://www.nabble.com/Champion-needed-for-Incubator-proposal-tp20586438p21080642.html >>Sent from the Apache Incubator - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >> >> >>- >>To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org >>For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org >> >> >> > >- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org >For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Champion needed for Incubator proposal
I'll admit that I'm not terribly familiar with Spring Rich Client, but it appears to be based on Swing. We believe that Swing has a number of inherent limitations that make it a less than ideal foundation for future development (http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/200811.mbox/%3c67680424603268227004897560511504893720-webm...@me.com%3e). However, I agree that collaborating on a common framework would be desirable. We would like to see Pivot become that common framework. Greg On Thursday, December 18, 2008, at 03:49PM, "melutovich" wrote: > >What is the difference between Pivot and Spring Rich Client? Wouldn't it be >better to work together on a single framework? >-- >View this message in context: >http://www.nabble.com/Champion-needed-for-Incubator-proposal-tp20586438p21080642.html >Sent from the Apache Incubator - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > >- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org >For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
Re: Champion needed for Incubator proposal
Thanks Niclas! We'll put together a draft proposal and send it to you for review. Greg On Monday, December 01, 2008, at 12:22AM, "Niclas Hedhman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 7:41 PM, Greg Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Hello all, >> >> The Pivot development team would like to submit the Pivot Toolkit for >> consideration as an Apache Incubator project. Pivot is an open-source >> platform for building rich internet applications in Java. The project is >> currently hosted at http://pivot-toolkit.org/ with development hosted at >> http://code.google.com/p/pivot/. We have recently released version 1.0 and >> are actively working on version 1.1. >> >> According to the proposal creation guide, the first step in submitting a >> project is to recruit a champion. If you would be willing to act as a >> champion on Pivot's behalf, please let us know. >> > >I volunteer to Champion this project proposal. > >First of all we need to draft a formal proposal. We can do that >off-list and come back with it to this list when ready. > >Cheers >Niclas > >- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Champion needed for Incubator proposal
>I examined your project for getting more information, its great, screens >look beautiful. Thanks... :-) >- Why you created own set of widgets using Java2D instead of using core Java >Swing component set? Swing has a number of limitations that make it a less than ideal option for building rich internet applications. Pivot is, in part, an attempt to overcome these shortcomings and create a modern Java RIA platform that can truly compete with newer RIA platforms such as Flex and Silverlight. Some advantages Pivot offers over Swing are: - Provides an XML markup language called WTKX for simplifying user interface construction. - Components are not limited to an "atomic" preferred size; they are allowed to report a preferred size as constrained by either width or height - this facilitates such features as label wrapping, which Swing does not support. - Defines a consistent data model that is used throughout the entire framework; for example, JSON data returned from a REST service is serialized into the same data structures used by a table view component to present data. No additional translation is necessary, which can significantly improve performance. A common data model also reduces the learning curve for new developers. - Includes built-in support for REST-based data services, which Pivot calls "web queries". - Includes built-in data binding support, which allows data returned from web queries (as well as other types of data services) to easily be mapped to form contents. - Includes platform-level support for visual effects and transitions (i.e. animations). - Defines a single Application inteface that is used for deploying both desktop and web-based applications - multiple codebases are not required. - Takes advantage of newer Java language features such as generics, enums, for..each, and annotations. >- What is the difference between JavaFX usage on the client side and Pivot? >Why the people uses Pivot? It is usage easier than JavaFX, or runtime >performance? JavaFX applications are created using JavaFX script. We wanted to create a platform that allows developer to build applications using XML and Java, similar to how Flex uses XML and ActionScript, and Silverlight uses XML and C# or JavaScript. >- Do you have any plan for creating Html/JavaScript/CSS rendering? Because >there were lots of problems that the people avoided the use of applets in >the browser. The short answer is no. We think that HTML is a great tool for authoring documents, but not the best tool for building rich user interfaces. In other words, HTML is great for building *web sites*, but not necessarily the best for building *web applications*. A large part of Pivot's philosophy is "use the right tool for the job". If your application is very content-heavy, HTML is probably the way to go. However, if your application requirements demand a more desktop-like user experience, but you want to reap the benefits of delivering the application via the web, an RIA platform such as Pivot is an ideal choice. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Champion needed for Incubator proposal
Hi all, Unfortunately, we're probably talking about a different Greg Brown. I didn't participate in the Summer of Code two years ago. :-) Nonetheless, I and the rest of the Pivot team are very committed to open source and would very much like to see Pivot adopted as an Incubator project. If anyone is interested in sponsoring the project, please let us know. Also let us know if there is anything we can do to help facilitate the process. The Pivot web site provides quite a bit of information about the project, but I could also put together a draft proposal if that would help. Thanks, Greg On Nov 20, 2008, at 8:15 PM, David Pollak wrote: Folks, I mentored Greg during the Google Sumer of Code 2006. He's a super- star and very committed to open source software. I don't know much about Pivot, but Greg has my highest regard. Thanks, David On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 10:41 AM, Greg Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hello all, The Pivot development team would like to submit the Pivot Toolkit for consideration as an Apache Incubator project. Pivot is an open-source platform for building rich internet applications in Java. The project is currently hosted at http://pivot-toolkit.org/ with development hosted at http://code.google.com/p/pivot/. We have recently released version 1.0 and are actively working on version 1.1. According to the proposal creation guide, the first step in submitting a project is to recruit a champion. If you would be willing to act as a champion on Pivot's behalf, please let us know. Thank you for your consideration. Greg Brown and Todd Volkert, Pivot Toolkit - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Lift, the simply functional web framework http://liftweb.net Collaborative Task Management http://much4.us Follow me: http://twitter.com/dpp Git some: http://github.com/dpp - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Champion needed for Incubator proposal
Hello all, The Pivot development team would like to submit the Pivot Toolkit for consideration as an Apache Incubator project. Pivot is an open-source platform for building rich internet applications in Java. The project is currently hosted at http://pivot-toolkit.org/ with development hosted at http://code.google.com/p/pivot/. We have recently released version 1.0 and are actively working on version 1.1. According to the proposal creation guide, the first step in submitting a project is to recruit a champion. If you would be willing to act as a champion on Pivot's behalf, please let us know. Thank you for your consideration. Greg Brown and Todd Volkert, Pivot Toolkit - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
