Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
On Wednesday 30 March 2005 12:35, Dave Nebinger wrote: > Most folks, where work is concerned, expect to have the computer 'just > work'. Your boss wants you to show up at 8 am and be productive for 8 > hours, not spend time figuring out the innards (unless that, of course, is > what you're paid to do ;-) That's why the *IT people* set up the computers, which then "just work", and not the users. Sally Secretary doesn't have to install Windows on her own machine, does she? Or Office? If Windows spits out some cryptic 'I just ate myself' message, does she have to fix it? No. The business pays people who have a clue to do these things. Tell me that STOP 0x000A or IRQL_NOT_LESS_OR_EQUAL or how about the lovely 'Registry hive not found' is less cryptic than 'line 6: B: command not found'. With computers, shit happens. Somebody's going to have to fix it. Is it Sally Secretary? No. Is it Robert Repairman? Yes. Does it matter what operating system? No. Perhaps Windows isn't all that user-friendly after all. I'll agree with the point that in home and small-business environments, where it may not be cost-effective to have a full-time IT staff, Linux may currently be too hard to manage, unless the users themselves have a clue. But in larger businesses, there's no reason Eddie IT can't set the system up so that Ernie Executive and Sally Secretary can mindlessly point and click their way to productivity. They aren't going to be mucking about in configuration, because they won't be able to. They wouldn't be able to in a competently managed Windows system either. Anyway, my point is that I don't buy the argument that 'Linux won't work on the enterprise desktop because management isn't point-and-click and users don't like that' because the *users* don't care about *system management* (and shouldn't be allowed to anyway). Users only need the apps they need, and those should already be set up for them, and repaired by people who already have a clue. Sorry if you've seen this message before. Something screwy is going on with the list here. -- electronerd pgpKMcNLebZmJ.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
Hi markknecht, you know you have posted the SAME POST 43 TIMES do you? F. On Thu, 2005-03-31 at 07:00 +0100, Mark Knecht wrote: > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:57:10 -0500 (EST), A. Khattri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Dave Nebinger wrote: > > > > > Unfortunately, Holly, I don't think linux will be ready for the desktop > > > for > > > quite awhile (yes, that does make me sad). > > > > Novell disagrees: > > http://business.newsforge.com/business/05/03/23/1755222.shtml?tid=152&tid=2&tid=37&tid=18 > > http://www.cbronline.com/article_news.asp?guid=397A879F-C1BB-4CBE-A8A4-633DE1B25200 > > > > AT&T disagrees: > > http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=1103&sid=aZ2JnBlm5tOs&refer=us > > > > Various governments disagree: > > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/29/technology/29computer.html? > > > > The tide is turning. > > Yeah, Linux on the business desktop is going to happen, or really > already has in so many places. > > Where Linux won't happen on the desktop in any big way is in the home. > Configuration is too difficult. Until all configuration for a standard > home machine can be handled in gui apps somewhere it won't work since > Grandma and her 7 year old grand daughter cannot be expect to run vi. > > My now 12 going on 13 year old son has never had anything other than > Linux. He got his first machine at 8 or 9. He used to bitch about > things here and there, and still does once in awhile, but with Cedega > he can play Half Life. He does all homework with Open Office and the > Gimp. He and I are trying to set up some sort of video capture/movie > edit setup for him to capture XBox things he wants to show people. It > works. > > Kids are very adaptable. They will complain but it stops pretty > quickly. I wanted mine on Linux because I especially didn't want a kid > using Windows on my network. It's bad enough with an adult doing it. > > My biggest worry now is Internet predators. I wish there was a real > solution for that sort of stuff under Linux, like Net-nanny etc. under > Windows. That's what scares me as a parent. > > - Mark > -- > gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list > > > -- > gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list > > > -- > gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list > > > -- > gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list > > > -- > gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list > > > -- > gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list > > > -- > gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list > > > -- > gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list > > > -- > gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list > > > -- > gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list > > > -- > gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list > > > -- > gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list > > > -- > gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list > > > -- > gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list > > > -- > gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list > > > -- > gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list > > > -- > gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list > > > -- > gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list > > > -- > gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list > > > -- > gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list > > > -- > gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list > -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
On Thu, 31 Mar 2005, Stroller wrote: > No wonder changes to the registry are so often needed on > Windows machines in order to configure advanced behaviour. I think the registry is just pure evil - a great place for virii/worms/spyware to hide stuff... > If you can imagine the dialogs necessary to configure something like > postfix or sendmail, then perhaps that's because you've worked on MS > Exchange. >From what Ive seen talking to customers, Exchange is a nightmare to secure and administer. We had a whole spate of customers who's Exchange servers were hacked and converted into massice spam engines. Nice. -- -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
> > No wonder changes to the registry are so often needed on > > Windows machines in order to configure advanced behaviour. > > I think the registry is just pure evil - a great place for > virii/worms/spyware to hide stuff... I always get a kick out of this kind of thing: bashing the Windows registry, while running Gnome/Gnome apps... What do you think gconf is? There's less information in gconf about hardware, but it's essentially just HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software, isn't it? -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
On Mar 30, 2005, at 2:20 pm, Dave Nebinger wrote: 2. Totally configurable via gui - no low-level file editing. As power users this is something that we want/need, but the windows user expects to pull up a dialog for the program and click checkboxes to turn things on and off. I can just imagine the dialogs necessary to configure something like postfix or sendmail ;-) This is exactly why Windows is so aggravating - mandatory GUI configuration is Windows' major failing, IMO. All applications have idiosyncratic, unexpected, or just plain quirky behaviour, and many have bugs. Trying to document or reproduce that from a GUI perspective is a nightmare. Can you imagine being trying to reproduce the behaviour to file a bug report saying "if the `update file progress' checkbox on the `server statistics' tab is checked when the application is running in `silent mode` then uploads will stall unless the `apply' button is pressed on the `configuration' window prior to exiting the menu"? Yet such a bug is quite conceivable. Let's compare that with a similar bug report for a Linux application - "changing config file to say UPDATE_FILE_PROGRESS=1 causes uploads to stall when `/etc/init.d/msexchange reload` is called". Isn't that much easier? No wonder changes to the registry are so often needed on Windows machines in order to configure advanced behaviour. If you can imagine the dialogs necessary to configure something like postfix or sendmail, then perhaps that's because you've worked on MS Exchange. Or even Outlook! Software is a compromise, and if you have a powerful, versatile application then you will by necessity have many configuration options; there comes a point at which wrapping those up in a GUI is no longer beneficial, as administrators have to wade through through different menus and dialog boxes in order to find them. Certainly this is no problem for experienced admins undertaking familiar tasks, but it's easy to forget a single step of even a frequently-used procedure - the alternative of a single configuration file allows one to edit from top to bottom, safe in the knowledge that no configuration options are hidden by an "advanced button" or an inadequately-labelled checkbox. Stroller. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:57:10 -0500 (EST), A. Khattri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Dave Nebinger wrote: > > > Unfortunately, Holly, I don't think linux will be ready for the desktop for > > quite awhile (yes, that does make me sad). > > Novell disagrees: > http://business.newsforge.com/business/05/03/23/1755222.shtml?tid=152&tid=2&tid=37&tid=18 > http://www.cbronline.com/article_news.asp?guid=397A879F-C1BB-4CBE-A8A4-633DE1B25200 > > AT&T disagrees: > http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=1103&sid=aZ2JnBlm5tOs&refer=us > > Various governments disagree: > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/29/technology/29computer.html? > > The tide is turning. Yeah, Linux on the business desktop is going to happen, or really already has in so many places. Where Linux won't happen on the desktop in any big way is in the home. Configuration is too difficult. Until all configuration for a standard home machine can be handled in gui apps somewhere it won't work since Grandma and her 7 year old grand daughter cannot be expect to run vi. My now 12 going on 13 year old son has never had anything other than Linux. He got his first machine at 8 or 9. He used to bitch about things here and there, and still does once in awhile, but with Cedega he can play Half Life. He does all homework with Open Office and the Gimp. He and I are trying to set up some sort of video capture/movie edit setup for him to capture XBox things he wants to show people. It works. Kids are very adaptable. They will complain but it stops pretty quickly. I wanted mine on Linux because I especially didn't want a kid using Windows on my network. It's bad enough with an adult doing it. My biggest worry now is Internet predators. I wish there was a real solution for that sort of stuff under Linux, like Net-nanny etc. under Windows. That's what scares me as a parent. - Mark -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
(I'm going to assume a medium to large business here, which actually seems to be where the business end of this argument has been focusing) On Wednesday 30 March 2005 12:35, Dave Nebinger wrote: > Most folks, where work is concerned, expect to have the computer 'just > work'. Your boss wants you to show up at 8 am and be productive for 8 > hours, not spend time figuring out the innards (unless that, of course, is > what you're paid to do ;-) That's why the *IT people* set up the computers, which then "just work", and not the users. Sally Secretary doesn't have to install Windows on her own machine, does she? Or Office? If Windows spits out some cryptic 'I just ate myself' message, does she have to fix it? No. The business pays people who have a clue to do these things. Tell me that STOP 0x000A or IRQL_NOT_LESS_OR_EQUAL or how about the lovely 'Registry hive not found' is less cryptic than 'line 6: B: command not found'. With computers, shit happens. Somebody's going to have to fix it. Is it Sally Secretary? No. Is it Robert Repairman? Yes. Does it matter what operating system? No. Perhaps Windows isn't all that user-friendly after all. I'll agree with the point that in home and small-business environments, where it may not be cost-effective to have a full-time IT staff, Linux may currently be too hard to manage, unless the users themselves have a clue. But in larger businesses, there's no reason Eddie IT can't set the system up so that Ernie Executive and Sally Secretary can mindlessly point and click their way to productivity. They aren't going to be mucking about in configuration, because they won't be able to. They wouldn't be able to in a competently managed Windows system either. Anyway, my point is that I don't buy the argument that 'Linux won't work on the enterprise desktop because management isn't point-and-click and users don't like that' because the *users* don't care about *system management* (and shouldn't be allowed to anyway). Users only need the apps they need, and those should already be set up for them, and repaired by people who already have a clue. -- electronerd pgpEDhWa4ng0b.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:57:10 -0500 (EST), A. Khattri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Dave Nebinger wrote: > > > Unfortunately, Holly, I don't think linux will be ready for the desktop for > > quite awhile (yes, that does make me sad). > > Novell disagrees: > http://business.newsforge.com/business/05/03/23/1755222.shtml?tid=152&tid=2&tid=37&tid=18 > http://www.cbronline.com/article_news.asp?guid=397A879F-C1BB-4CBE-A8A4-633DE1B25200 > > AT&T disagrees: > http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=1103&sid=aZ2JnBlm5tOs&refer=us > > Various governments disagree: > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/29/technology/29computer.html? > > The tide is turning. Yeah, Linux on the business desktop is going to happen, or really already has in so many places. Where Linux won't happen on the desktop in any big way is in the home. Configuration is too difficult. Until all configuration for a standard home machine can be handled in gui apps somewhere it won't work since Grandma and her 7 year old grand daughter cannot be expect to run vi. My now 12 going on 13 year old son has never had anything other than Linux. He got his first machine at 8 or 9. He used to bitch about things here and there, and still does once in awhile, but with Cedega he can play Half Life. He does all homework with Open Office and the Gimp. He and I are trying to set up some sort of video capture/movie edit setup for him to capture XBox things he wants to show people. It works. Kids are very adaptable. They will complain but it stops pretty quickly. I wanted mine on Linux because I especially didn't want a kid using Windows on my network. It's bad enough with an adult doing it. My biggest worry now is Internet predators. I wish there was a real solution for that sort of stuff under Linux, like Net-nanny etc. under Windows. That's what scares me as a parent. - Mark -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:57:10 -0500 (EST), A. Khattri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Dave Nebinger wrote: > > > Unfortunately, Holly, I don't think linux will be ready for the desktop for > > quite awhile (yes, that does make me sad). > > Novell disagrees: > http://business.newsforge.com/business/05/03/23/1755222.shtml?tid=152&tid=2&tid=37&tid=18 > http://www.cbronline.com/article_news.asp?guid=397A879F-C1BB-4CBE-A8A4-633DE1B25200 > > AT&T disagrees: > http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=1103&sid=aZ2JnBlm5tOs&refer=us > > Various governments disagree: > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/29/technology/29computer.html? > > The tide is turning. Yeah, Linux on the business desktop is going to happen, or really already has in so many places. Where Linux won't happen on the desktop in any big way is in the home. Configuration is too difficult. Until all configuration for a standard home machine can be handled in gui apps somewhere it won't work since Grandma and her 7 year old grand daughter cannot be expect to run vi. My now 12 going on 13 year old son has never had anything other than Linux. He got his first machine at 8 or 9. He used to bitch about things here and there, and still does once in awhile, but with Cedega he can play Half Life. He does all homework with Open Office and the Gimp. He and I are trying to set up some sort of video capture/movie edit setup for him to capture XBox things he wants to show people. It works. Kids are very adaptable. They will complain but it stops pretty quickly. I wanted mine on Linux because I especially didn't want a kid using Windows on my network. It's bad enough with an adult doing it. My biggest worry now is Internet predators. I wish there was a real solution for that sort of stuff under Linux, like Net-nanny etc. under Windows. That's what scares me as a parent. - Mark -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:57:10 -0500 (EST), A. Khattri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Dave Nebinger wrote: > > > Unfortunately, Holly, I don't think linux will be ready for the desktop for > > quite awhile (yes, that does make me sad). > > Novell disagrees: > http://business.newsforge.com/business/05/03/23/1755222.shtml?tid=152&tid=2&tid=37&tid=18 > http://www.cbronline.com/article_news.asp?guid=397A879F-C1BB-4CBE-A8A4-633DE1B25200 > > AT&T disagrees: > http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=1103&sid=aZ2JnBlm5tOs&refer=us > > Various governments disagree: > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/29/technology/29computer.html? > > The tide is turning. Yeah, Linux on the business desktop is going to happen, or really already has in so many places. Where Linux won't happen on the desktop in any big way is in the home. Configuration is too difficult. Until all configuration for a standard home machine can be handled in gui apps somewhere it won't work since Grandma and her 7 year old grand daughter cannot be expect to run vi. My now 12 going on 13 year old son has never had anything other than Linux. He got his first machine at 8 or 9. He used to bitch about things here and there, and still does once in awhile, but with Cedega he can play Half Life. He does all homework with Open Office and the Gimp. He and I are trying to set up some sort of video capture/movie edit setup for him to capture XBox things he wants to show people. It works. Kids are very adaptable. They will complain but it stops pretty quickly. I wanted mine on Linux because I especially didn't want a kid using Windows on my network. It's bad enough with an adult doing it. My biggest worry now is Internet predators. I wish there was a real solution for that sort of stuff under Linux, like Net-nanny etc. under Windows. That's what scares me as a parent. - Mark -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:57:10 -0500 (EST), A. Khattri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Dave Nebinger wrote: > > > Unfortunately, Holly, I don't think linux will be ready for the desktop for > > quite awhile (yes, that does make me sad). > > Novell disagrees: > http://business.newsforge.com/business/05/03/23/1755222.shtml?tid=152&tid=2&tid=37&tid=18 > http://www.cbronline.com/article_news.asp?guid=397A879F-C1BB-4CBE-A8A4-633DE1B25200 > > AT&T disagrees: > http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=1103&sid=aZ2JnBlm5tOs&refer=us > > Various governments disagree: > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/29/technology/29computer.html? > > The tide is turning. Yeah, Linux on the business desktop is going to happen, or really already has in so many places. Where Linux won't happen on the desktop in any big way is in the home. Configuration is too difficult. Until all configuration for a standard home machine can be handled in gui apps somewhere it won't work since Grandma and her 7 year old grand daughter cannot be expect to run vi. My now 12 going on 13 year old son has never had anything other than Linux. He got his first machine at 8 or 9. He used to bitch about things here and there, and still does once in awhile, but with Cedega he can play Half Life. He does all homework with Open Office and the Gimp. He and I are trying to set up some sort of video capture/movie edit setup for him to capture XBox things he wants to show people. It works. Kids are very adaptable. They will complain but it stops pretty quickly. I wanted mine on Linux because I especially didn't want a kid using Windows on my network. It's bad enough with an adult doing it. My biggest worry now is Internet predators. I wish there was a real solution for that sort of stuff under Linux, like Net-nanny etc. under Windows. That's what scares me as a parent. - Mark -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:57:10 -0500 (EST), A. Khattri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Dave Nebinger wrote: > > > Unfortunately, Holly, I don't think linux will be ready for the desktop for > > quite awhile (yes, that does make me sad). > > Novell disagrees: > http://business.newsforge.com/business/05/03/23/1755222.shtml?tid=152&tid=2&tid=37&tid=18 > http://www.cbronline.com/article_news.asp?guid=397A879F-C1BB-4CBE-A8A4-633DE1B25200 > > AT&T disagrees: > http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=1103&sid=aZ2JnBlm5tOs&refer=us > > Various governments disagree: > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/29/technology/29computer.html? > > The tide is turning. Yeah, Linux on the business desktop is going to happen, or really already has in so many places. Where Linux won't happen on the desktop in any big way is in the home. Configuration is too difficult. Until all configuration for a standard home machine can be handled in gui apps somewhere it won't work since Grandma and her 7 year old grand daughter cannot be expect to run vi. My now 12 going on 13 year old son has never had anything other than Linux. He got his first machine at 8 or 9. He used to bitch about things here and there, and still does once in awhile, but with Cedega he can play Half Life. He does all homework with Open Office and the Gimp. He and I are trying to set up some sort of video capture/movie edit setup for him to capture XBox things he wants to show people. It works. Kids are very adaptable. They will complain but it stops pretty quickly. I wanted mine on Linux because I especially didn't want a kid using Windows on my network. It's bad enough with an adult doing it. My biggest worry now is Internet predators. I wish there was a real solution for that sort of stuff under Linux, like Net-nanny etc. under Windows. That's what scares me as a parent. - Mark -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:57:10 -0500 (EST), A. Khattri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Dave Nebinger wrote: > > > Unfortunately, Holly, I don't think linux will be ready for the desktop for > > quite awhile (yes, that does make me sad). > > Novell disagrees: > http://business.newsforge.com/business/05/03/23/1755222.shtml?tid=152&tid=2&tid=37&tid=18 > http://www.cbronline.com/article_news.asp?guid=397A879F-C1BB-4CBE-A8A4-633DE1B25200 > > AT&T disagrees: > http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=1103&sid=aZ2JnBlm5tOs&refer=us > > Various governments disagree: > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/29/technology/29computer.html? > > The tide is turning. Yeah, Linux on the business desktop is going to happen, or really already has in so many places. Where Linux won't happen on the desktop in any big way is in the home. Configuration is too difficult. Until all configuration for a standard home machine can be handled in gui apps somewhere it won't work since Grandma and her 7 year old grand daughter cannot be expect to run vi. My now 12 going on 13 year old son has never had anything other than Linux. He got his first machine at 8 or 9. He used to bitch about things here and there, and still does once in awhile, but with Cedega he can play Half Life. He does all homework with Open Office and the Gimp. He and I are trying to set up some sort of video capture/movie edit setup for him to capture XBox things he wants to show people. It works. Kids are very adaptable. They will complain but it stops pretty quickly. I wanted mine on Linux because I especially didn't want a kid using Windows on my network. It's bad enough with an adult doing it. My biggest worry now is Internet predators. I wish there was a real solution for that sort of stuff under Linux, like Net-nanny etc. under Windows. That's what scares me as a parent. - Mark -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: On-topic, possible mailing list issue: was RE: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
> Make that 8 copies now... You're not the only one -- I've received a copy every fifteen minutes for the last few hours - and it wasn't just his... -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:57:10 -0500 (EST), A. Khattri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Dave Nebinger wrote: > > > Unfortunately, Holly, I don't think linux will be ready for the desktop for > > quite awhile (yes, that does make me sad). > > Novell disagrees: > http://business.newsforge.com/business/05/03/23/1755222.shtml?tid=152&tid=2&tid=37&tid=18 > http://www.cbronline.com/article_news.asp?guid=397A879F-C1BB-4CBE-A8A4-633DE1B25200 > > AT&T disagrees: > http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=1103&sid=aZ2JnBlm5tOs&refer=us > > Various governments disagree: > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/29/technology/29computer.html? > > The tide is turning. Yeah, Linux on the business desktop is going to happen, or really already has in so many places. Where Linux won't happen on the desktop in any big way is in the home. Configuration is too difficult. Until all configuration for a standard home machine can be handled in gui apps somewhere it won't work since Grandma and her 7 year old grand daughter cannot be expect to run vi. My now 12 going on 13 year old son has never had anything other than Linux. He got his first machine at 8 or 9. He used to bitch about things here and there, and still does once in awhile, but with Cedega he can play Half Life. He does all homework with Open Office and the Gimp. He and I are trying to set up some sort of video capture/movie edit setup for him to capture XBox things he wants to show people. It works. Kids are very adaptable. They will complain but it stops pretty quickly. I wanted mine on Linux because I especially didn't want a kid using Windows on my network. It's bad enough with an adult doing it. My biggest worry now is Internet predators. I wish there was a real solution for that sort of stuff under Linux, like Net-nanny etc. under Windows. That's what scares me as a parent. - Mark -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:57:10 -0500 (EST), A. Khattri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Dave Nebinger wrote: > > > Unfortunately, Holly, I don't think linux will be ready for the desktop for > > quite awhile (yes, that does make me sad). > > Novell disagrees: > http://business.newsforge.com/business/05/03/23/1755222.shtml?tid=152&tid=2&tid=37&tid=18 > http://www.cbronline.com/article_news.asp?guid=397A879F-C1BB-4CBE-A8A4-633DE1B25200 > > AT&T disagrees: > http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=1103&sid=aZ2JnBlm5tOs&refer=us > > Various governments disagree: > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/29/technology/29computer.html? > > The tide is turning. Yeah, Linux on the business desktop is going to happen, or really already has in so many places. Where Linux won't happen on the desktop in any big way is in the home. Configuration is too difficult. Until all configuration for a standard home machine can be handled in gui apps somewhere it won't work since Grandma and her 7 year old grand daughter cannot be expect to run vi. My now 12 going on 13 year old son has never had anything other than Linux. He got his first machine at 8 or 9. He used to bitch about things here and there, and still does once in awhile, but with Cedega he can play Half Life. He does all homework with Open Office and the Gimp. He and I are trying to set up some sort of video capture/movie edit setup for him to capture XBox things he wants to show people. It works. Kids are very adaptable. They will complain but it stops pretty quickly. I wanted mine on Linux because I especially didn't want a kid using Windows on my network. It's bad enough with an adult doing it. My biggest worry now is Internet predators. I wish there was a real solution for that sort of stuff under Linux, like Net-nanny etc. under Windows. That's what scares me as a parent. - Mark -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:57:10 -0500 (EST), A. Khattri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Dave Nebinger wrote: > > > Unfortunately, Holly, I don't think linux will be ready for the desktop for > > quite awhile (yes, that does make me sad). > > Novell disagrees: > http://business.newsforge.com/business/05/03/23/1755222.shtml?tid=152&tid=2&tid=37&tid=18 > http://www.cbronline.com/article_news.asp?guid=397A879F-C1BB-4CBE-A8A4-633DE1B25200 > > AT&T disagrees: > http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=1103&sid=aZ2JnBlm5tOs&refer=us > > Various governments disagree: > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/29/technology/29computer.html? > > The tide is turning. Yeah, Linux on the business desktop is going to happen, or really already has in so many places. Where Linux won't happen on the desktop in any big way is in the home. Configuration is too difficult. Until all configuration for a standard home machine can be handled in gui apps somewhere it won't work since Grandma and her 7 year old grand daughter cannot be expect to run vi. My now 12 going on 13 year old son has never had anything other than Linux. He got his first machine at 8 or 9. He used to bitch about things here and there, and still does once in awhile, but with Cedega he can play Half Life. He does all homework with Open Office and the Gimp. He and I are trying to set up some sort of video capture/movie edit setup for him to capture XBox things he wants to show people. It works. Kids are very adaptable. They will complain but it stops pretty quickly. I wanted mine on Linux because I especially didn't want a kid using Windows on my network. It's bad enough with an adult doing it. My biggest worry now is Internet predators. I wish there was a real solution for that sort of stuff under Linux, like Net-nanny etc. under Windows. That's what scares me as a parent. - Mark -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:57:10 -0500 (EST), A. Khattri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Dave Nebinger wrote: > > > Unfortunately, Holly, I don't think linux will be ready for the desktop for > > quite awhile (yes, that does make me sad). > > Novell disagrees: > http://business.newsforge.com/business/05/03/23/1755222.shtml?tid=152&tid=2&tid=37&tid=18 > http://www.cbronline.com/article_news.asp?guid=397A879F-C1BB-4CBE-A8A4-633DE1B25200 > > AT&T disagrees: > http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=1103&sid=aZ2JnBlm5tOs&refer=us > > Various governments disagree: > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/29/technology/29computer.html? > > The tide is turning. Yeah, Linux on the business desktop is going to happen, or really already has in so many places. Where Linux won't happen on the desktop in any big way is in the home. Configuration is too difficult. Until all configuration for a standard home machine can be handled in gui apps somewhere it won't work since Grandma and her 7 year old grand daughter cannot be expect to run vi. My now 12 going on 13 year old son has never had anything other than Linux. He got his first machine at 8 or 9. He used to bitch about things here and there, and still does once in awhile, but with Cedega he can play Half Life. He does all homework with Open Office and the Gimp. He and I are trying to set up some sort of video capture/movie edit setup for him to capture XBox things he wants to show people. It works. Kids are very adaptable. They will complain but it stops pretty quickly. I wanted mine on Linux because I especially didn't want a kid using Windows on my network. It's bad enough with an adult doing it. My biggest worry now is Internet predators. I wish there was a real solution for that sort of stuff under Linux, like Net-nanny etc. under Windows. That's what scares me as a parent. - Mark -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:57:10 -0500 (EST), A. Khattri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Dave Nebinger wrote: > > > Unfortunately, Holly, I don't think linux will be ready for the desktop for > > quite awhile (yes, that does make me sad). > > Novell disagrees: > http://business.newsforge.com/business/05/03/23/1755222.shtml?tid=152&tid=2&tid=37&tid=18 > http://www.cbronline.com/article_news.asp?guid=397A879F-C1BB-4CBE-A8A4-633DE1B25200 > > AT&T disagrees: > http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=1103&sid=aZ2JnBlm5tOs&refer=us > > Various governments disagree: > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/29/technology/29computer.html? > > The tide is turning. Yeah, Linux on the business desktop is going to happen, or really already has in so many places. Where Linux won't happen on the desktop in any big way is in the home. Configuration is too difficult. Until all configuration for a standard home machine can be handled in gui apps somewhere it won't work since Grandma and her 7 year old grand daughter cannot be expect to run vi. My now 12 going on 13 year old son has never had anything other than Linux. He got his first machine at 8 or 9. He used to bitch about things here and there, and still does once in awhile, but with Cedega he can play Half Life. He does all homework with Open Office and the Gimp. He and I are trying to set up some sort of video capture/movie edit setup for him to capture XBox things he wants to show people. It works. Kids are very adaptable. They will complain but it stops pretty quickly. I wanted mine on Linux because I especially didn't want a kid using Windows on my network. It's bad enough with an adult doing it. My biggest worry now is Internet predators. I wish there was a real solution for that sort of stuff under Linux, like Net-nanny etc. under Windows. That's what scares me as a parent. - Mark -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:57:10 -0500 (EST), A. Khattri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Dave Nebinger wrote: > > > Unfortunately, Holly, I don't think linux will be ready for the desktop for > > quite awhile (yes, that does make me sad). > > Novell disagrees: > http://business.newsforge.com/business/05/03/23/1755222.shtml?tid=152&tid=2&tid=37&tid=18 > http://www.cbronline.com/article_news.asp?guid=397A879F-C1BB-4CBE-A8A4-633DE1B25200 > > AT&T disagrees: > http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=1103&sid=aZ2JnBlm5tOs&refer=us > > Various governments disagree: > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/29/technology/29computer.html? > > The tide is turning. Yeah, Linux on the business desktop is going to happen, or really already has in so many places. Where Linux won't happen on the desktop in any big way is in the home. Configuration is too difficult. Until all configuration for a standard home machine can be handled in gui apps somewhere it won't work since Grandma and her 7 year old grand daughter cannot be expect to run vi. My now 12 going on 13 year old son has never had anything other than Linux. He got his first machine at 8 or 9. He used to bitch about things here and there, and still does once in awhile, but with Cedega he can play Half Life. He does all homework with Open Office and the Gimp. He and I are trying to set up some sort of video capture/movie edit setup for him to capture XBox things he wants to show people. It works. Kids are very adaptable. They will complain but it stops pretty quickly. I wanted mine on Linux because I especially didn't want a kid using Windows on my network. It's bad enough with an adult doing it. My biggest worry now is Internet predators. I wish there was a real solution for that sort of stuff under Linux, like Net-nanny etc. under Windows. That's what scares me as a parent. - Mark -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:57:10 -0500 (EST), A. Khattri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Dave Nebinger wrote: > > > Unfortunately, Holly, I don't think linux will be ready for the desktop for > > quite awhile (yes, that does make me sad). > > Novell disagrees: > http://business.newsforge.com/business/05/03/23/1755222.shtml?tid=152&tid=2&tid=37&tid=18 > http://www.cbronline.com/article_news.asp?guid=397A879F-C1BB-4CBE-A8A4-633DE1B25200 > > AT&T disagrees: > http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=1103&sid=aZ2JnBlm5tOs&refer=us > > Various governments disagree: > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/29/technology/29computer.html? > > The tide is turning. Yeah, Linux on the business desktop is going to happen, or really already has in so many places. Where Linux won't happen on the desktop in any big way is in the home. Configuration is too difficult. Until all configuration for a standard home machine can be handled in gui apps somewhere it won't work since Grandma and her 7 year old grand daughter cannot be expect to run vi. My now 12 going on 13 year old son has never had anything other than Linux. He got his first machine at 8 or 9. He used to bitch about things here and there, and still does once in awhile, but with Cedega he can play Half Life. He does all homework with Open Office and the Gimp. He and I are trying to set up some sort of video capture/movie edit setup for him to capture XBox things he wants to show people. It works. Kids are very adaptable. They will complain but it stops pretty quickly. I wanted mine on Linux because I especially didn't want a kid using Windows on my network. It's bad enough with an adult doing it. My biggest worry now is Internet predators. I wish there was a real solution for that sort of stuff under Linux, like Net-nanny etc. under Windows. That's what scares me as a parent. - Mark -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:57:10 -0500 (EST), A. Khattri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Dave Nebinger wrote: > > > Unfortunately, Holly, I don't think linux will be ready for the desktop for > > quite awhile (yes, that does make me sad). > > Novell disagrees: > http://business.newsforge.com/business/05/03/23/1755222.shtml?tid=152&tid=2&tid=37&tid=18 > http://www.cbronline.com/article_news.asp?guid=397A879F-C1BB-4CBE-A8A4-633DE1B25200 > > AT&T disagrees: > http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=1103&sid=aZ2JnBlm5tOs&refer=us > > Various governments disagree: > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/29/technology/29computer.html? > > The tide is turning. Yeah, Linux on the business desktop is going to happen, or really already has in so many places. Where Linux won't happen on the desktop in any big way is in the home. Configuration is too difficult. Until all configuration for a standard home machine can be handled in gui apps somewhere it won't work since Grandma and her 7 year old grand daughter cannot be expect to run vi. My now 12 going on 13 year old son has never had anything other than Linux. He got his first machine at 8 or 9. He used to bitch about things here and there, and still does once in awhile, but with Cedega he can play Half Life. He does all homework with Open Office and the Gimp. He and I are trying to set up some sort of video capture/movie edit setup for him to capture XBox things he wants to show people. It works. Kids are very adaptable. They will complain but it stops pretty quickly. I wanted mine on Linux because I especially didn't want a kid using Windows on my network. It's bad enough with an adult doing it. My biggest worry now is Internet predators. I wish there was a real solution for that sort of stuff under Linux, like Net-nanny etc. under Windows. That's what scares me as a parent. - Mark -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:57:10 -0500 (EST), A. Khattri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Dave Nebinger wrote: > > > Unfortunately, Holly, I don't think linux will be ready for the desktop for > > quite awhile (yes, that does make me sad). > > Novell disagrees: > http://business.newsforge.com/business/05/03/23/1755222.shtml?tid=152&tid=2&tid=37&tid=18 > http://www.cbronline.com/article_news.asp?guid=397A879F-C1BB-4CBE-A8A4-633DE1B25200 > > AT&T disagrees: > http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=1103&sid=aZ2JnBlm5tOs&refer=us > > Various governments disagree: > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/29/technology/29computer.html? > > The tide is turning. Yeah, Linux on the business desktop is going to happen, or really already has in so many places. Where Linux won't happen on the desktop in any big way is in the home. Configuration is too difficult. Until all configuration for a standard home machine can be handled in gui apps somewhere it won't work since Grandma and her 7 year old grand daughter cannot be expect to run vi. My now 12 going on 13 year old son has never had anything other than Linux. He got his first machine at 8 or 9. He used to bitch about things here and there, and still does once in awhile, but with Cedega he can play Half Life. He does all homework with Open Office and the Gimp. He and I are trying to set up some sort of video capture/movie edit setup for him to capture XBox things he wants to show people. It works. Kids are very adaptable. They will complain but it stops pretty quickly. I wanted mine on Linux because I especially didn't want a kid using Windows on my network. It's bad enough with an adult doing it. My biggest worry now is Internet predators. I wish there was a real solution for that sort of stuff under Linux, like Net-nanny etc. under Windows. That's what scares me as a parent. - Mark -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:57:10 -0500 (EST), A. Khattri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Dave Nebinger wrote: > > > Unfortunately, Holly, I don't think linux will be ready for the desktop for > > quite awhile (yes, that does make me sad). > > Novell disagrees: > http://business.newsforge.com/business/05/03/23/1755222.shtml?tid=152&tid=2&tid=37&tid=18 > http://www.cbronline.com/article_news.asp?guid=397A879F-C1BB-4CBE-A8A4-633DE1B25200 > > AT&T disagrees: > http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=1103&sid=aZ2JnBlm5tOs&refer=us > > Various governments disagree: > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/29/technology/29computer.html? > > The tide is turning. Yeah, Linux on the business desktop is going to happen, or really already has in so many places. Where Linux won't happen on the desktop in any big way is in the home. Configuration is too difficult. Until all configuration for a standard home machine can be handled in gui apps somewhere it won't work since Grandma and her 7 year old grand daughter cannot be expect to run vi. My now 12 going on 13 year old son has never had anything other than Linux. He got his first machine at 8 or 9. He used to bitch about things here and there, and still does once in awhile, but with Cedega he can play Half Life. He does all homework with Open Office and the Gimp. He and I are trying to set up some sort of video capture/movie edit setup for him to capture XBox things he wants to show people. It works. Kids are very adaptable. They will complain but it stops pretty quickly. I wanted mine on Linux because I especially didn't want a kid using Windows on my network. It's bad enough with an adult doing it. My biggest worry now is Internet predators. I wish there was a real solution for that sort of stuff under Linux, like Net-nanny etc. under Windows. That's what scares me as a parent. - Mark -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:57:10 -0500 (EST), A. Khattri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Dave Nebinger wrote: > > > Unfortunately, Holly, I don't think linux will be ready for the desktop for > > quite awhile (yes, that does make me sad). > > Novell disagrees: > http://business.newsforge.com/business/05/03/23/1755222.shtml?tid=152&tid=2&tid=37&tid=18 > http://www.cbronline.com/article_news.asp?guid=397A879F-C1BB-4CBE-A8A4-633DE1B25200 > > AT&T disagrees: > http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=1103&sid=aZ2JnBlm5tOs&refer=us > > Various governments disagree: > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/29/technology/29computer.html? > > The tide is turning. Yeah, Linux on the business desktop is going to happen, or really already has in so many places. Where Linux won't happen on the desktop in any big way is in the home. Configuration is too difficult. Until all configuration for a standard home machine can be handled in gui apps somewhere it won't work since Grandma and her 7 year old grand daughter cannot be expect to run vi. My now 12 going on 13 year old son has never had anything other than Linux. He got his first machine at 8 or 9. He used to bitch about things here and there, and still does once in awhile, but with Cedega he can play Half Life. He does all homework with Open Office and the Gimp. He and I are trying to set up some sort of video capture/movie edit setup for him to capture XBox things he wants to show people. It works. Kids are very adaptable. They will complain but it stops pretty quickly. I wanted mine on Linux because I especially didn't want a kid using Windows on my network. It's bad enough with an adult doing it. My biggest worry now is Internet predators. I wish there was a real solution for that sort of stuff under Linux, like Net-nanny etc. under Windows. That's what scares me as a parent. - Mark -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:57:10 -0500 (EST), A. Khattri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Dave Nebinger wrote: > > > Unfortunately, Holly, I don't think linux will be ready for the desktop for > > quite awhile (yes, that does make me sad). > > Novell disagrees: > http://business.newsforge.com/business/05/03/23/1755222.shtml?tid=152&tid=2&tid=37&tid=18 > http://www.cbronline.com/article_news.asp?guid=397A879F-C1BB-4CBE-A8A4-633DE1B25200 > > AT&T disagrees: > http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=1103&sid=aZ2JnBlm5tOs&refer=us > > Various governments disagree: > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/29/technology/29computer.html? > > The tide is turning. Yeah, Linux on the business desktop is going to happen, or really already has in so many places. Where Linux won't happen on the desktop in any big way is in the home. Configuration is too difficult. Until all configuration for a standard home machine can be handled in gui apps somewhere it won't work since Grandma and her 7 year old grand daughter cannot be expect to run vi. My now 12 going on 13 year old son has never had anything other than Linux. He got his first machine at 8 or 9. He used to bitch about things here and there, and still does once in awhile, but with Cedega he can play Half Life. He does all homework with Open Office and the Gimp. He and I are trying to set up some sort of video capture/movie edit setup for him to capture XBox things he wants to show people. It works. Kids are very adaptable. They will complain but it stops pretty quickly. I wanted mine on Linux because I especially didn't want a kid using Windows on my network. It's bad enough with an adult doing it. My biggest worry now is Internet predators. I wish there was a real solution for that sort of stuff under Linux, like Net-nanny etc. under Windows. That's what scares me as a parent. - Mark -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:57:10 -0500 (EST), A. Khattri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Dave Nebinger wrote: > > > Unfortunately, Holly, I don't think linux will be ready for the desktop for > > quite awhile (yes, that does make me sad). > > Novell disagrees: > http://business.newsforge.com/business/05/03/23/1755222.shtml?tid=152&tid=2&tid=37&tid=18 > http://www.cbronline.com/article_news.asp?guid=397A879F-C1BB-4CBE-A8A4-633DE1B25200 > > AT&T disagrees: > http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=1103&sid=aZ2JnBlm5tOs&refer=us > > Various governments disagree: > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/29/technology/29computer.html? > > The tide is turning. Yeah, Linux on the business desktop is going to happen, or really already has in so many places. Where Linux won't happen on the desktop in any big way is in the home. Configuration is too difficult. Until all configuration for a standard home machine can be handled in gui apps somewhere it won't work since Grandma and her 7 year old grand daughter cannot be expect to run vi. My now 12 going on 13 year old son has never had anything other than Linux. He got his first machine at 8 or 9. He used to bitch about things here and there, and still does once in awhile, but with Cedega he can play Half Life. He does all homework with Open Office and the Gimp. He and I are trying to set up some sort of video capture/movie edit setup for him to capture XBox things he wants to show people. It works. Kids are very adaptable. They will complain but it stops pretty quickly. I wanted mine on Linux because I especially didn't want a kid using Windows on my network. It's bad enough with an adult doing it. My biggest worry now is Internet predators. I wish there was a real solution for that sort of stuff under Linux, like Net-nanny etc. under Windows. That's what scares me as a parent. - Mark -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:57:10 -0500 (EST), A. Khattri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Dave Nebinger wrote: > > > Unfortunately, Holly, I don't think linux will be ready for the desktop for > > quite awhile (yes, that does make me sad). > > Novell disagrees: > http://business.newsforge.com/business/05/03/23/1755222.shtml?tid=152&tid=2&tid=37&tid=18 > http://www.cbronline.com/article_news.asp?guid=397A879F-C1BB-4CBE-A8A4-633DE1B25200 > > AT&T disagrees: > http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=1103&sid=aZ2JnBlm5tOs&refer=us > > Various governments disagree: > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/29/technology/29computer.html? > > The tide is turning. Yeah, Linux on the business desktop is going to happen, or really already has in so many places. Where Linux won't happen on the desktop in any big way is in the home. Configuration is too difficult. Until all configuration for a standard home machine can be handled in gui apps somewhere it won't work since Grandma and her 7 year old grand daughter cannot be expect to run vi. My now 12 going on 13 year old son has never had anything other than Linux. He got his first machine at 8 or 9. He used to bitch about things here and there, and still does once in awhile, but with Cedega he can play Half Life. He does all homework with Open Office and the Gimp. He and I are trying to set up some sort of video capture/movie edit setup for him to capture XBox things he wants to show people. It works. Kids are very adaptable. They will complain but it stops pretty quickly. I wanted mine on Linux because I especially didn't want a kid using Windows on my network. It's bad enough with an adult doing it. My biggest worry now is Internet predators. I wish there was a real solution for that sort of stuff under Linux, like Net-nanny etc. under Windows. That's what scares me as a parent. - Mark -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:57:10 -0500 (EST), A. Khattri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Dave Nebinger wrote: > > > Unfortunately, Holly, I don't think linux will be ready for the desktop for > > quite awhile (yes, that does make me sad). > > Novell disagrees: > http://business.newsforge.com/business/05/03/23/1755222.shtml?tid=152&tid=2&tid=37&tid=18 > http://www.cbronline.com/article_news.asp?guid=397A879F-C1BB-4CBE-A8A4-633DE1B25200 > > AT&T disagrees: > http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=1103&sid=aZ2JnBlm5tOs&refer=us > > Various governments disagree: > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/29/technology/29computer.html? > > The tide is turning. Yeah, Linux on the business desktop is going to happen, or really already has in so many places. Where Linux won't happen on the desktop in any big way is in the home. Configuration is too difficult. Until all configuration for a standard home machine can be handled in gui apps somewhere it won't work since Grandma and her 7 year old grand daughter cannot be expect to run vi. My now 12 going on 13 year old son has never had anything other than Linux. He got his first machine at 8 or 9. He used to bitch about things here and there, and still does once in awhile, but with Cedega he can play Half Life. He does all homework with Open Office and the Gimp. He and I are trying to set up some sort of video capture/movie edit setup for him to capture XBox things he wants to show people. It works. Kids are very adaptable. They will complain but it stops pretty quickly. I wanted mine on Linux because I especially didn't want a kid using Windows on my network. It's bad enough with an adult doing it. My biggest worry now is Internet predators. I wish there was a real solution for that sort of stuff under Linux, like Net-nanny etc. under Windows. That's what scares me as a parent. - Mark -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:57:10 -0500 (EST), A. Khattri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Dave Nebinger wrote: > > > Unfortunately, Holly, I don't think linux will be ready for the desktop for > > quite awhile (yes, that does make me sad). > > Novell disagrees: > http://business.newsforge.com/business/05/03/23/1755222.shtml?tid=152&tid=2&tid=37&tid=18 > http://www.cbronline.com/article_news.asp?guid=397A879F-C1BB-4CBE-A8A4-633DE1B25200 > > AT&T disagrees: > http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=1103&sid=aZ2JnBlm5tOs&refer=us > > Various governments disagree: > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/29/technology/29computer.html? > > The tide is turning. Yeah, Linux on the business desktop is going to happen, or really already has in so many places. Where Linux won't happen on the desktop in any big way is in the home. Configuration is too difficult. Until all configuration for a standard home machine can be handled in gui apps somewhere it won't work since Grandma and her 7 year old grand daughter cannot be expect to run vi. My now 12 going on 13 year old son has never had anything other than Linux. He got his first machine at 8 or 9. He used to bitch about things here and there, and still does once in awhile, but with Cedega he can play Half Life. He does all homework with Open Office and the Gimp. He and I are trying to set up some sort of video capture/movie edit setup for him to capture XBox things he wants to show people. It works. Kids are very adaptable. They will complain but it stops pretty quickly. I wanted mine on Linux because I especially didn't want a kid using Windows on my network. It's bad enough with an adult doing it. My biggest worry now is Internet predators. I wish there was a real solution for that sort of stuff under Linux, like Net-nanny etc. under Windows. That's what scares me as a parent. - Mark -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:57:10 -0500 (EST), A. Khattri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Dave Nebinger wrote: > > > Unfortunately, Holly, I don't think linux will be ready for the desktop for > > quite awhile (yes, that does make me sad). > > Novell disagrees: > http://business.newsforge.com/business/05/03/23/1755222.shtml?tid=152&tid=2&tid=37&tid=18 > http://www.cbronline.com/article_news.asp?guid=397A879F-C1BB-4CBE-A8A4-633DE1B25200 > > AT&T disagrees: > http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=1103&sid=aZ2JnBlm5tOs&refer=us > > Various governments disagree: > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/29/technology/29computer.html? > > The tide is turning. Yeah, Linux on the business desktop is going to happen, or really already has in so many places. Where Linux won't happen on the desktop in any big way is in the home. Configuration is too difficult. Until all configuration for a standard home machine can be handled in gui apps somewhere it won't work since Grandma and her 7 year old grand daughter cannot be expect to run vi. My now 12 going on 13 year old son has never had anything other than Linux. He got his first machine at 8 or 9. He used to bitch about things here and there, and still does once in awhile, but with Cedega he can play Half Life. He does all homework with Open Office and the Gimp. He and I are trying to set up some sort of video capture/movie edit setup for him to capture XBox things he wants to show people. It works. Kids are very adaptable. They will complain but it stops pretty quickly. I wanted mine on Linux because I especially didn't want a kid using Windows on my network. It's bad enough with an adult doing it. My biggest worry now is Internet predators. I wish there was a real solution for that sort of stuff under Linux, like Net-nanny etc. under Windows. That's what scares me as a parent. - Mark -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:57:10 -0500 (EST), A. Khattri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Dave Nebinger wrote: > > > Unfortunately, Holly, I don't think linux will be ready for the desktop for > > quite awhile (yes, that does make me sad). > > Novell disagrees: > http://business.newsforge.com/business/05/03/23/1755222.shtml?tid=152&tid=2&tid=37&tid=18 > http://www.cbronline.com/article_news.asp?guid=397A879F-C1BB-4CBE-A8A4-633DE1B25200 > > AT&T disagrees: > http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=1103&sid=aZ2JnBlm5tOs&refer=us > > Various governments disagree: > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/29/technology/29computer.html? > > The tide is turning. Yeah, Linux on the business desktop is going to happen, or really already has in so many places. Where Linux won't happen on the desktop in any big way is in the home. Configuration is too difficult. Until all configuration for a standard home machine can be handled in gui apps somewhere it won't work since Grandma and her 7 year old grand daughter cannot be expect to run vi. My now 12 going on 13 year old son has never had anything other than Linux. He got his first machine at 8 or 9. He used to bitch about things here and there, and still does once in awhile, but with Cedega he can play Half Life. He does all homework with Open Office and the Gimp. He and I are trying to set up some sort of video capture/movie edit setup for him to capture XBox things he wants to show people. It works. Kids are very adaptable. They will complain but it stops pretty quickly. I wanted mine on Linux because I especially didn't want a kid using Windows on my network. It's bad enough with an adult doing it. My biggest worry now is Internet predators. I wish there was a real solution for that sort of stuff under Linux, like Net-nanny etc. under Windows. That's what scares me as a parent. - Mark -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:57:10 -0500 (EST), A. Khattri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Dave Nebinger wrote: > > > Unfortunately, Holly, I don't think linux will be ready for the desktop for > > quite awhile (yes, that does make me sad). > > Novell disagrees: > http://business.newsforge.com/business/05/03/23/1755222.shtml?tid=152&tid=2&tid=37&tid=18 > http://www.cbronline.com/article_news.asp?guid=397A879F-C1BB-4CBE-A8A4-633DE1B25200 > > AT&T disagrees: > http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=1103&sid=aZ2JnBlm5tOs&refer=us > > Various governments disagree: > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/29/technology/29computer.html? > > The tide is turning. Yeah, Linux on the business desktop is going to happen, or really already has in so many places. Where Linux won't happen on the desktop in any big way is in the home. Configuration is too difficult. Until all configuration for a standard home machine can be handled in gui apps somewhere it won't work since Grandma and her 7 year old grand daughter cannot be expect to run vi. My now 12 going on 13 year old son has never had anything other than Linux. He got his first machine at 8 or 9. He used to bitch about things here and there, and still does once in awhile, but with Cedega he can play Half Life. He does all homework with Open Office and the Gimp. He and I are trying to set up some sort of video capture/movie edit setup for him to capture XBox things he wants to show people. It works. Kids are very adaptable. They will complain but it stops pretty quickly. I wanted mine on Linux because I especially didn't want a kid using Windows on my network. It's bad enough with an adult doing it. My biggest worry now is Internet predators. I wish there was a real solution for that sort of stuff under Linux, like Net-nanny etc. under Windows. That's what scares me as a parent. - Mark -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:57:10 -0500 (EST), A. Khattri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Dave Nebinger wrote: > > > Unfortunately, Holly, I don't think linux will be ready for the desktop for > > quite awhile (yes, that does make me sad). > > Novell disagrees: > http://business.newsforge.com/business/05/03/23/1755222.shtml?tid=152&tid=2&tid=37&tid=18 > http://www.cbronline.com/article_news.asp?guid=397A879F-C1BB-4CBE-A8A4-633DE1B25200 > > AT&T disagrees: > http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=1103&sid=aZ2JnBlm5tOs&refer=us > > Various governments disagree: > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/29/technology/29computer.html? > > The tide is turning. Yeah, Linux on the business desktop is going to happen, or really already has in so many places. Where Linux won't happen on the desktop in any big way is in the home. Configuration is too difficult. Until all configuration for a standard home machine can be handled in gui apps somewhere it won't work since Grandma and her 7 year old grand daughter cannot be expect to run vi. My now 12 going on 13 year old son has never had anything other than Linux. He got his first machine at 8 or 9. He used to bitch about things here and there, and still does once in awhile, but with Cedega he can play Half Life. He does all homework with Open Office and the Gimp. He and I are trying to set up some sort of video capture/movie edit setup for him to capture XBox things he wants to show people. It works. Kids are very adaptable. They will complain but it stops pretty quickly. I wanted mine on Linux because I especially didn't want a kid using Windows on my network. It's bad enough with an adult doing it. My biggest worry now is Internet predators. I wish there was a real solution for that sort of stuff under Linux, like Net-nanny etc. under Windows. That's what scares me as a parent. - Mark -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:57:10 -0500 (EST), A. Khattri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Dave Nebinger wrote: > > > Unfortunately, Holly, I don't think linux will be ready for the desktop for > > quite awhile (yes, that does make me sad). > > Novell disagrees: > http://business.newsforge.com/business/05/03/23/1755222.shtml?tid=152&tid=2&tid=37&tid=18 > http://www.cbronline.com/article_news.asp?guid=397A879F-C1BB-4CBE-A8A4-633DE1B25200 > > AT&T disagrees: > http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=1103&sid=aZ2JnBlm5tOs&refer=us > > Various governments disagree: > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/29/technology/29computer.html? > > The tide is turning. Yeah, Linux on the business desktop is going to happen, or really already has in so many places. Where Linux won't happen on the desktop in any big way is in the home. Configuration is too difficult. Until all configuration for a standard home machine can be handled in gui apps somewhere it won't work since Grandma and her 7 year old grand daughter cannot be expect to run vi. My now 12 going on 13 year old son has never had anything other than Linux. He got his first machine at 8 or 9. He used to bitch about things here and there, and still does once in awhile, but with Cedega he can play Half Life. He does all homework with Open Office and the Gimp. He and I are trying to set up some sort of video capture/movie edit setup for him to capture XBox things he wants to show people. It works. Kids are very adaptable. They will complain but it stops pretty quickly. I wanted mine on Linux because I especially didn't want a kid using Windows on my network. It's bad enough with an adult doing it. My biggest worry now is Internet predators. I wish there was a real solution for that sort of stuff under Linux, like Net-nanny etc. under Windows. That's what scares me as a parent. - Mark -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:57:10 -0500 (EST), A. Khattri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Dave Nebinger wrote: > > > Unfortunately, Holly, I don't think linux will be ready for the desktop for > > quite awhile (yes, that does make me sad). > > Novell disagrees: > http://business.newsforge.com/business/05/03/23/1755222.shtml?tid=152&tid=2&tid=37&tid=18 > http://www.cbronline.com/article_news.asp?guid=397A879F-C1BB-4CBE-A8A4-633DE1B25200 > > AT&T disagrees: > http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=1103&sid=aZ2JnBlm5tOs&refer=us > > Various governments disagree: > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/29/technology/29computer.html? > > The tide is turning. Yeah, Linux on the business desktop is going to happen, or really already has in so many places. Where Linux won't happen on the desktop in any big way is in the home. Configuration is too difficult. Until all configuration for a standard home machine can be handled in gui apps somewhere it won't work since Grandma and her 7 year old grand daughter cannot be expect to run vi. My now 12 going on 13 year old son has never had anything other than Linux. He got his first machine at 8 or 9. He used to bitch about things here and there, and still does once in awhile, but with Cedega he can play Half Life. He does all homework with Open Office and the Gimp. He and I are trying to set up some sort of video capture/movie edit setup for him to capture XBox things he wants to show people. It works. Kids are very adaptable. They will complain but it stops pretty quickly. I wanted mine on Linux because I especially didn't want a kid using Windows on my network. It's bad enough with an adult doing it. My biggest worry now is Internet predators. I wish there was a real solution for that sort of stuff under Linux, like Net-nanny etc. under Windows. That's what scares me as a parent. - Mark -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:57:10 -0500 (EST), A. Khattri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Dave Nebinger wrote: > > > Unfortunately, Holly, I don't think linux will be ready for the desktop for > > quite awhile (yes, that does make me sad). > > Novell disagrees: > http://business.newsforge.com/business/05/03/23/1755222.shtml?tid=152&tid=2&tid=37&tid=18 > http://www.cbronline.com/article_news.asp?guid=397A879F-C1BB-4CBE-A8A4-633DE1B25200 > > AT&T disagrees: > http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=1103&sid=aZ2JnBlm5tOs&refer=us > > Various governments disagree: > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/29/technology/29computer.html? > > The tide is turning. Yeah, Linux on the business desktop is going to happen, or really already has in so many places. Where Linux won't happen on the desktop in any big way is in the home. Configuration is too difficult. Until all configuration for a standard home machine can be handled in gui apps somewhere it won't work since Grandma and her 7 year old grand daughter cannot be expect to run vi. My now 12 going on 13 year old son has never had anything other than Linux. He got his first machine at 8 or 9. He used to bitch about things here and there, and still does once in awhile, but with Cedega he can play Half Life. He does all homework with Open Office and the Gimp. He and I are trying to set up some sort of video capture/movie edit setup for him to capture XBox things he wants to show people. It works. Kids are very adaptable. They will complain but it stops pretty quickly. I wanted mine on Linux because I especially didn't want a kid using Windows on my network. It's bad enough with an adult doing it. My biggest worry now is Internet predators. I wish there was a real solution for that sort of stuff under Linux, like Net-nanny etc. under Windows. That's what scares me as a parent. - Mark -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
On Wed, Mar 30, 2005 at 05:35:33PM -0500, James Hiscock wrote: > I'd just like to point out that text is _also_ a sign. It is a sign, but not a analogy (unless you write in ancient egypt). Otherwise people would not have takes offense by Apple Macintoshs practice of ejecting a floppy when you put the symbol of the floppy in the trash. Greetings, Bjoern -- BjÃrn Michaelsen pub 1024D/C9E5A256 2003-01-21 BjÃrn Michaelsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Key fingerprint = D649 8C78 1CB1 23CF 5CCF CA1A C1B5 BBEC C9E5 A256 pgpGk8TKCNnd9.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
> > We are beings > > designed to work naturally from symbols, signs, and icons; not terse textual > > messages. > This is > why symbols and analogies are not good and dangerous in this case. Most > errors of inexperienced users can be explained by this. And if you > really understood the concepts many of the advantages of GUIs are gone - > they are still useful in certain scenarios, but they will not kill the > commandline in a looong time. I'd just like to point out that text is _also_ a sign. I think it's whether or not you can interpret the sign that matters, and not the form that the sign takes (necessarily)... ...so, essentially, I think you're both right - for the most part. Maybe I'm wrong, but I believe that's the whole point behind studying semiotics... linguistics... anthropology... or any of the arts, I guess... -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
RE: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Dave Nebinger wrote: > Only if you can't see the hype and hidden agendas of those folks. Novell > wants you to buy into it to build a consumer base for their own flavor > (which, on the surface, looks and acts a lot like windows). Err, its SuSE actually. Also, they are open-sourcing a lot of their own stuff. (Sure, their product is in their own interest but its a positive thing for the community as a whole - we need mainstream players to embrace Linux fully). > AT&T is only > testing it out, but basically they're looking to gain some leverage against > M$ in regards to pricing. Maybe - Im sure security is a major component of that decision and M$ hasn't done very well in that regard for many years. > Brazil and other third world nations don't really > have the cash that M$ tries to extort from them. The developing world today will be tomorrow's developed world so this is a positive thing too. > Hype and agendas aside, there is no momentum in the mass market to move from > windows to linux. I'd be real happy if there was as M$ IMHO is holding back > the development of systems and technology and general innovation, but that's > another thread all together. I think people need to see big organizations moving to it (which is starting to happen despite your poo-pooing), then they'll get more exposure to it and use it at home, etc etc. -- -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
On Wed, Mar 30, 2005 at 03:35:39PM -0500, Dave Nebinger wrote: > Is an icon simpler than terse text? Yes. Is it better? No. > And it is seen across more > industries than just the computer industry. Sewing machines now come with > buttons with images representing the type of stitch rather than using text. Because it solves localisation. At work, one printer has two colored LEDs and two buttons with symbols. The LEDs can blink, go on and off, yet almost always we need the manual to find out what the bugger wants. The older printer with the LCD-textdisplay is always pretty clear about what he needs > Cars come with idiot lights that have pictures rather than 'service engine > soon' (which is itself an over simplification of a problem with the car > rather than an indication of what the problem is). "Service engine soon - at our contract dealer or all guaranties are void " > We all know a red light > means stop, a green light means go, and the yellow light means speed up > because you're about to get pinned by the red light ;-) We are beings > designed to work naturally from symbols, signs, and icons; not terse textual > messages. Yes, but most people *understand* the reasoning behind the traffic light (as you prove with the yellow light). Those people who like GUIs because they simplify things do _not_ understand what happens behind it. This is why symbols and analogies are not good and dangerous in this case. Most errors of inexperienced users can be explained by this. And if you really understood the concepts many of the advantages of GUIs are gone - they are still useful in certain scenarios, but they will not kill the commandline in a looong time. > > > You are implying here that Linux's ultimate goal is to replace Windows. I > > do > > not agree here. I think the two can coexist just fine. Linux for those > > end-users curious enough to go deeper into their computer's innards, and > > Windows for those that want it to 'just work' (innasmuch as windows > > works... :P) without having to learn anything about how it works. The > > server > > market is of course a different matter, but we're talking about desktop, > > right. > > That's the wrong assumption. > > Basically to say "Linux is ready for the desktop" is in kin to saying that > "Linux is easier to use than windows so it can supplant the current > installation base"; I don't think anyone here can say that with any > sincerity. a) Concider linux to become more common in the workplace. b) A preinstalled SuSE is far more "desktop-ready" than Windows for a typical technophobic user (most are) who never even conciders to buy a hardware upgrade - prizes are so low nowadays, people just replace complete machines. c) There is just one blocker left: games. But for the "just works" crowd a game console is a tempting concept ... > Most folks, where work is concerned, expect to have the computer 'just > work'. Your boss wants you to show up at 8 am and be productive for 8 > hours, not spend time figuring out the innards (unless that, of course, is > what you're paid to do ;-) Thats exactly what he will get with one good linux admin and locked-down clients for everybody else. > That's the one thing that windows, I hate to say, has - it just works. No it doesnt. At least in my experience: at work there is always 10-20% overhead to fix things on windows. I guess (but dont know from experience) Apples might be much better, but windows is at least as maintanance-heavy as linux on a single machine. But linux gets easier with every machine more, while windows does not. > I don't want to see linux/gentoo/freebsd/whatever go in that direction > either. I'm happy with my gentoo systems and don't want to see them > bastardized to become more like windows. > > My argument, however, was to be 'ready for the desktop,' to supplant > windows, requires that they do so. Other distros do. A Distro based on gentoo, which is originaly a metadistro (a tool to built a distro) might certainly do that too. Greetings, BjÃrn -- BjÃrn Michaelsen pub 1024D/C9E5A256 2003-01-21 BjÃrn Michaelsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Key fingerprint = D649 8C78 1CB1 23CF 5CCF CA1A C1B5 BBEC C9E5 A256 pgp06dy2d3pvu.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Mark Knecht wrote: > Where Linux won't happen on the desktop in any big way is in the home. > Configuration is too difficult. Until all configuration for a standard > home machine can be handled in gui apps somewhere it won't work since > Grandma and her 7 year old grand daughter cannot be expect to run vi. RH pretty much has all of that covered with their own GUI tools. Likewise for SuSE. Gentoo doesn't come with its own GUI tools but then I dont look at Gentoo as a mainstream desktop Linux OS. > Kids are very adaptable. They will complain but it stops pretty > quickly. Most of the costs of support centers are for those old folks who never grew up with computers. -- -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:57:10 -0500 (EST), A. Khattri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Dave Nebinger wrote: > > > Unfortunately, Holly, I don't think linux will be ready for the desktop for > > quite awhile (yes, that does make me sad). > > Novell disagrees: > http://business.newsforge.com/business/05/03/23/1755222.shtml?tid=152&tid=2&tid=37&tid=18 > http://www.cbronline.com/article_news.asp?guid=397A879F-C1BB-4CBE-A8A4-633DE1B25200 > > AT&T disagrees: > http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=1103&sid=aZ2JnBlm5tOs&refer=us > > Various governments disagree: > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/29/technology/29computer.html? > > The tide is turning. Yeah, Linux on the business desktop is going to happen, or really already has in so many places. Where Linux won't happen on the desktop in any big way is in the home. Configuration is too difficult. Until all configuration for a standard home machine can be handled in gui apps somewhere it won't work since Grandma and her 7 year old grand daughter cannot be expect to run vi. My now 12 going on 13 year old son has never had anything other than Linux. He got his first machine at 8 or 9. He used to bitch about things here and there, and still does once in awhile, but with Cedega he can play Half Life. He does all homework with Open Office and the Gimp. He and I are trying to set up some sort of video capture/movie edit setup for him to capture XBox things he wants to show people. It works. Kids are very adaptable. They will complain but it stops pretty quickly. I wanted mine on Linux because I especially didn't want a kid using Windows on my network. It's bad enough with an adult doing it. My biggest worry now is Internet predators. I wish there was a real solution for that sort of stuff under Linux, like Net-nanny etc. under Windows. That's what scares me as a parent. - Mark -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:57:10 -0500 (EST), A. Khattri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Dave Nebinger wrote: > > > Unfortunately, Holly, I don't think linux will be ready for the desktop for > > quite awhile (yes, that does make me sad). > > Novell disagrees: > http://business.newsforge.com/business/05/03/23/1755222.shtml?tid=152&tid=2&tid=37&tid=18 > http://www.cbronline.com/article_news.asp?guid=397A879F-C1BB-4CBE-A8A4-633DE1B25200 > > AT&T disagrees: > http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=1103&sid=aZ2JnBlm5tOs&refer=us > > Various governments disagree: > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/29/technology/29computer.html? > > The tide is turning. Yeah, Linux on the business desktop is going to happen, or really already has in so many places. Where Linux won't happen on the desktop in any big way is in the home. Configuration is too difficult. Until all configuration for a standard home machine can be handled in gui apps somewhere it won't work since Grandma and her 7 year old grand daughter cannot be expect to run vi. My now 12 going on 13 year old son has never had anything other than Linux. He got his first machine at 8 or 9. He used to bitch about things here and there, and still does once in awhile, but with Cedega he can play Half Life. He does all homework with Open Office and the Gimp. He and I are trying to set up some sort of video capture/movie edit setup for him to capture XBox things he wants to show people. It works. Kids are very adaptable. They will complain but it stops pretty quickly. I wanted mine on Linux because I especially didn't want a kid using Windows on my network. It's bad enough with an adult doing it. My biggest worry now is Internet predators. I wish there was a real solution for that sort of stuff under Linux, like Net-nanny etc. under Windows. That's what scares me as a parent. - Mark -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
RE: On-topic, possible mailing list issue: was RE: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
> I received six different copies of Mark's message... Make that 8 copies now... Looked at the actual message headers and other than repeats for mailing list stuff (see below), there's nothing really helpful in identifying the problem source... Return-Path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Original-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Delivered-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.joat.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 952351549 for <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 15:47:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.joat.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (server [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01357-01 for <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 15:47:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from robin.gentoo.org (robin.gentoo.org [140.105.134.102]) by mail.joat.com (Postfix) with ESMTP for <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 15:47:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from robin.gentoo.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by robin.gentoo.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with SMTP id j2UKeKT6008364; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 20:40:20 GMT Delivered-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Received: from smtp.nildram.co.uk (smtp.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by robin.gentoo.org (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j2UKV68l027614 for <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 20:31:06 GMT Received: from gaznet.co.uk (wagner.gotadsl.co.uk [62.3.255.243]) by smtp.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34396252430 for <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 21:31:02 +0100 (BST) Received: from mail pickup service by gaznet.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 30 Mar 2005 21:31:04 +0100 Delivered-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Delivered-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> thread-index: AcU1YQGNSo9CQinyRHu1PsrwO9KE5A== Delivered-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws;s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-vers ion:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=RCPAxfJuTNn6cjStkxkl6WQdOgn8N8XOW4oAT0L30UqIl7DSAs73iei1/2cm3haaTQRb1jT0Nb z4N18nLaf50c16fmF1XXU6s28Widv7+96XG7KK7PdPkNw8UtuKvPYjfXBOM70qa1cNQLuduHrsmq XexC6QNUXHHIDhzXaEeqc= Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 21:31:03 +0100 From: "Mark Knecht" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...) Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> In-Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Precedence: bulk X-Mailer: Microsoft CDO for Exchange 2000 List-Post: <mailto:gentoo-user@gentoo.org>, <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> List-Help: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> List-Subscribe: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@gentoo.org Precedence: bulk List-Post: <mailto:gentoo-user@gentoo.org>, <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> List-Help: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> List-Subscribe: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@gentoo.org Precedence: bulk List-Post: <mailto:gentoo-user@gentoo.org>, <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> List-Help: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> List-Subscribe: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@gentoo.org Precedence: bulk List-Post: <mailto:gentoo-user@gentoo.org>, <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> List-Help: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> List-Subscribe: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> List-Id: Gentoo Linux mail X-BeenThere: gentoo-user@gentoo.org Reply-To: gentoo-user@gentoo.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Importance: normal Priority: normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.224 Sender: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Mar 2005 19:45:20.0833 (UTC) FILETIME=[01CE6310:01C53561] X-DSPAM-Result: Innocent X-DSPAM-Confidence: 0.9997 X-DSPAM-Probability: 0. X-DSPAM-Signature: 424b107119654169036451 X-DSPAM-Factors: 27, X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at joat.com X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=4 tests=AWL, BAYES_00 X-Spam-Level: -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:57:10 -0500 (EST), A. Khattri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Dave Nebinger wrote: > > > Unfortunately, Holly, I don't think linux will be ready for the desktop for > > quite awhile (yes, that does make me sad). > > Novell disagrees: > http://business.newsforge.com/business/05/03/23/1755222.shtml?tid=152&tid=2&tid=37&tid=18 > http://www.cbronline.com/article_news.asp?guid=397A879F-C1BB-4CBE-A8A4-633DE1B25200 > > AT&T disagrees: > http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=1103&sid=aZ2JnBlm5tOs&refer=us > > Various governments disagree: > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/29/technology/29computer.html? > > The tide is turning. Yeah, Linux on the business desktop is going to happen, or really already has in so many places. Where Linux won't happen on the desktop in any big way is in the home. Configuration is too difficult. Until all configuration for a standard home machine can be handled in gui apps somewhere it won't work since Grandma and her 7 year old grand daughter cannot be expect to run vi. My now 12 going on 13 year old son has never had anything other than Linux. He got his first machine at 8 or 9. He used to bitch about things here and there, and still does once in awhile, but with Cedega he can play Half Life. He does all homework with Open Office and the Gimp. He and I are trying to set up some sort of video capture/movie edit setup for him to capture XBox things he wants to show people. It works. Kids are very adaptable. They will complain but it stops pretty quickly. I wanted mine on Linux because I especially didn't want a kid using Windows on my network. It's bad enough with an adult doing it. My biggest worry now is Internet predators. I wish there was a real solution for that sort of stuff under Linux, like Net-nanny etc. under Windows. That's what scares me as a parent. - Mark -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:57:10 -0500 (EST), A. Khattri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Dave Nebinger wrote: > > > Unfortunately, Holly, I don't think linux will be ready for the desktop for > > quite awhile (yes, that does make me sad). > > Novell disagrees: > http://business.newsforge.com/business/05/03/23/1755222.shtml?tid=152&tid=2&tid=37&tid=18 > http://www.cbronline.com/article_news.asp?guid=397A879F-C1BB-4CBE-A8A4-633DE1B25200 > > AT&T disagrees: > http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=1103&sid=aZ2JnBlm5tOs&refer=us > > Various governments disagree: > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/29/technology/29computer.html? > > The tide is turning. Yeah, Linux on the business desktop is going to happen, or really already has in so many places. Where Linux won't happen on the desktop in any big way is in the home. Configuration is too difficult. Until all configuration for a standard home machine can be handled in gui apps somewhere it won't work since Grandma and her 7 year old grand daughter cannot be expect to run vi. My now 12 going on 13 year old son has never had anything other than Linux. He got his first machine at 8 or 9. He used to bitch about things here and there, and still does once in awhile, but with Cedega he can play Half Life. He does all homework with Open Office and the Gimp. He and I are trying to set up some sort of video capture/movie edit setup for him to capture XBox things he wants to show people. It works. Kids are very adaptable. They will complain but it stops pretty quickly. I wanted mine on Linux because I especially didn't want a kid using Windows on my network. It's bad enough with an adult doing it. My biggest worry now is Internet predators. I wish there was a real solution for that sort of stuff under Linux, like Net-nanny etc. under Windows. That's what scares me as a parent. - Mark -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
On-topic, possible mailing list issue: was RE: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
Okay, mailing list question... I received six different copies of Mark's message... Granted he did cross post to gentoo-user@gentoo.org and [EMAIL PROTECTED] so I can understand getting two copies, but six? No offense to you, Mark, but was this something he did or something that either the normal list or robin.gentoo.org did? > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Mark Knecht > Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 3:01 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: > command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...) [snip] -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
RE: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
> > > Why does something have to act/look like Windows to be ready for the > > > desktop. If that's what you need/want just use Windows already! > > > > It's not that the next OS has to act/look like windows to supplant > windows, > > it's a question of usability... > > > > There's a lot of research that has been done and is ongoing re: user > > interface design. So far the research supports the statement that > "simpler > > is better" in regards to usability is concerned. > > Here we agree ;) But do your previous points actually work towards this? > Is a blinking icon simpler than a terse text message? Is a self-updating > computer simpler than an admin being in charge of updating his own > computer? What when it installs something that breaks the system (we all > know this can happen...). How many layers of 'simplicity' do we have to > wade through to find the real problem? How is navigating through pages of > GUI dialogues simpler than a quick edit of a text file? Is an icon simpler than terse text? Yes. And it is seen across more industries than just the computer industry. Sewing machines now come with buttons with images representing the type of stitch rather than using text. Cars come with idiot lights that have pictures rather than 'service engine soon' (which is itself an over simplification of a problem with the car rather than an indication of what the problem is). We all know a red light means stop, a green light means go, and the yellow light means speed up because you're about to get pinned by the red light ;-) We are beings designed to work naturally from symbols, signs, and icons; not terse textual messages. That's what the research has and is proving out. > > The replacement for windows will be one that provides a simpler, > consistent > > interface, not one that is more complex and requires intimate details of > > low-level file editing and command prompt access, the current face of > > linux. > > > > I love linux and use it everywhere except my 7 year old daughter's > computer > > (granted I could probably do it there too except the sites that she > likes > > to use are too dependent upon IE). And I won't go back to windows, not > > anytime soon. > > > > But I can realistically gauge how much it would take to move > organizations > > in the direction of linux and understand where 'linux is ready for the > > desktop' zealots miss the mark. Most organizations are looking to cut > > costs and simplify their infrastructure (again to cut costs). Linux on > the > > desktop won't do that in it's current state and would have to be > > significantly dumb-downed before it can happen. I for one am glad it's > not > > going in that direction. > > You are implying here that Linux's ultimate goal is to replace Windows. I > do > not agree here. I think the two can coexist just fine. Linux for those > end-users curious enough to go deeper into their computer's innards, and > Windows for those that want it to 'just work' (innasmuch as windows > works... :P) without having to learn anything about how it works. The > server > market is of course a different matter, but we're talking about desktop, > right. That's the wrong assumption. Basically to say "Linux is ready for the desktop" is in kin to saying that "Linux is easier to use than windows so it can supplant the current installation base"; I don't think anyone here can say that with any sincerity. I don't think linux is out to (or even could) replace windows. I do think it has it's place. What it's destiny will turn out to be is beyond my guess. Most folks, where work is concerned, expect to have the computer 'just work'. Your boss wants you to show up at 8 am and be productive for 8 hours, not spend time figuring out the innards (unless that, of course, is what you're paid to do ;-) That's the one thing that windows, I hate to say, has - it just works. > I think a happy medium can be reached with certain distros trying to piece > together a newbie friendly Linux desktop that moves towards some of the > point > you mentioned originally. As I understand it, Xandros and Linspire are > working towards these ends. I just don't agree with the argument that > 'Linux' > in general needs to be more user-friendly. In my opinion (for what it's > worth) Linux (and UNIX in general) is just fine the way it is. If the day > comes where I have to point and drool my way through a gui to admin my > Linux > box, that is the day I move to FreeBSD... as this is exactly why I left MS > all those years ago in the first place... the obscurity. I don't want to see linux/gentoo/freebsd/whatever go in that direction either. I'm happy with my gentoo systems and don't want to see them bastardized to become more like windows. My argument, however, was to be 'ready for the desktop,' to supplant windows, requires that they do so. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:57:10 -0500 (EST), A. Khattri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Dave Nebinger wrote: > > > Unfortunately, Holly, I don't think linux will be ready for the desktop for > > quite awhile (yes, that does make me sad). > > Novell disagrees: > http://business.newsforge.com/business/05/03/23/1755222.shtml?tid=152&tid=2&tid=37&tid=18 > http://www.cbronline.com/article_news.asp?guid=397A879F-C1BB-4CBE-A8A4-633DE1B25200 > > AT&T disagrees: > http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=1103&sid=aZ2JnBlm5tOs&refer=us > > Various governments disagree: > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/29/technology/29computer.html? > > The tide is turning. Yeah, Linux on the business desktop is going to happen, or really already has in so many places. Where Linux won't happen on the desktop in any big way is in the home. Configuration is too difficult. Until all configuration for a standard home machine can be handled in gui apps somewhere it won't work since Grandma and her 7 year old grand daughter cannot be expect to run vi. My now 12 going on 13 year old son has never had anything other than Linux. He got his first machine at 8 or 9. He used to bitch about things here and there, and still does once in awhile, but with Cedega he can play Half Life. He does all homework with Open Office and the Gimp. He and I are trying to set up some sort of video capture/movie edit setup for him to capture XBox things he wants to show people. It works. Kids are very adaptable. They will complain but it stops pretty quickly. I wanted mine on Linux because I especially didn't want a kid using Windows on my network. It's bad enough with an adult doing it. My biggest worry now is Internet predators. I wish there was a real solution for that sort of stuff under Linux, like Net-nanny etc. under Windows. That's what scares me as a parent. - Mark -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:57:10 -0500 (EST), A. Khattri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Dave Nebinger wrote: > > > Unfortunately, Holly, I don't think linux will be ready for the desktop for > > quite awhile (yes, that does make me sad). > > Novell disagrees: > http://business.newsforge.com/business/05/03/23/1755222.shtml?tid=152&tid=2&tid=37&tid=18 > http://www.cbronline.com/article_news.asp?guid=397A879F-C1BB-4CBE-A8A4-633DE1B25200 > > AT&T disagrees: > http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=1103&sid=aZ2JnBlm5tOs&refer=us > > Various governments disagree: > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/29/technology/29computer.html? > > The tide is turning. Yeah, Linux on the business desktop is going to happen, or really already has in so many places. Where Linux won't happen on the desktop in any big way is in the home. Configuration is too difficult. Until all configuration for a standard home machine can be handled in gui apps somewhere it won't work since Grandma and her 7 year old grand daughter cannot be expect to run vi. My now 12 going on 13 year old son has never had anything other than Linux. He got his first machine at 8 or 9. He used to bitch about things here and there, and still does once in awhile, but with Cedega he can play Half Life. He does all homework with Open Office and the Gimp. He and I are trying to set up some sort of video capture/movie edit setup for him to capture XBox things he wants to show people. It works. Kids are very adaptable. They will complain but it stops pretty quickly. I wanted mine on Linux because I especially didn't want a kid using Windows on my network. It's bad enough with an adult doing it. My biggest worry now is Internet predators. I wish there was a real solution for that sort of stuff under Linux, like Net-nanny etc. under Windows. That's what scares me as a parent. - Mark -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:57:10 -0500 (EST), A. Khattri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Dave Nebinger wrote: > > > Unfortunately, Holly, I don't think linux will be ready for the desktop for > > quite awhile (yes, that does make me sad). > > Novell disagrees: > http://business.newsforge.com/business/05/03/23/1755222.shtml?tid=152&tid=2&tid=37&tid=18 > http://www.cbronline.com/article_news.asp?guid=397A879F-C1BB-4CBE-A8A4-633DE1B25200 > > AT&T disagrees: > http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=1103&sid=aZ2JnBlm5tOs&refer=us > > Various governments disagree: > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/29/technology/29computer.html? > > The tide is turning. Yeah, Linux on the business desktop is going to happen, or really already has in so many places. Where Linux won't happen on the desktop in any big way is in the home. Configuration is too difficult. Until all configuration for a standard home machine can be handled in gui apps somewhere it won't work since Grandma and her 7 year old grand daughter cannot be expect to run vi. My now 12 going on 13 year old son has never had anything other than Linux. He got his first machine at 8 or 9. He used to bitch about things here and there, and still does once in awhile, but with Cedega he can play Half Life. He does all homework with Open Office and the Gimp. He and I are trying to set up some sort of video capture/movie edit setup for him to capture XBox things he wants to show people. It works. Kids are very adaptable. They will complain but it stops pretty quickly. I wanted mine on Linux because I especially didn't want a kid using Windows on my network. It's bad enough with an adult doing it. My biggest worry now is Internet predators. I wish there was a real solution for that sort of stuff under Linux, like Net-nanny etc. under Windows. That's what scares me as a parent. - Mark -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
quoth the Dave Nebinger: > > Why does something have to act/look like Windows to be ready for the > > desktop. If that's what you need/want just use Windows already! > > It's not that the next OS has to act/look like windows to supplant windows, > it's a question of usability... > > There's a lot of research that has been done and is ongoing re: user > interface design. So far the research supports the statement that "simpler > is better" in regards to usability is concerned. Here we agree ;) But do your previous points actually work towards this? Is a blinking icon simpler than a terse text message? Is a self-updating computer simpler than an admin being in charge of updating his own computer? What happens when it installs something that breaks the system (we all know this can happen...). How many layers of 'simplicity' do we have to wade through to find the real problem? How is navigating through pages of GUI dialogues simpler than a quick edit of a text file? > The replacement for windows will be one that provides a simpler, consistent > interface, not one that is more complex and requires intimate details of > low-level file editing and command prompt access, the current face of > linux. > > I love linux and use it everywhere except my 7 year old daughter's computer > (granted I could probably do it there too except the sites that she likes > to use are too dependent upon IE). And I won't go back to windows, not > anytime soon. > > But I can realistically gauge how much it would take to move organizations > in the direction of linux and understand where 'linux is ready for the > desktop' zealots miss the mark. Most organizations are looking to cut > costs and simplify their infrastructure (again to cut costs). Linux on the > desktop won't do that in it's current state and would have to be > significantly dumb-downed before it can happen. I for one am glad it's not > going in that direction. You are implying here that Linux's ultimate goal is to replace Windows. I do not agree here. I think the two can coexist just fine. Linux for those end-users curious enough to go deeper into their computer's innards, and Windows for those that want it to 'just work' (innasmuch as windows works... :P) without having to learn anything about how it works. The server market is of course a different matter, but we're talking about desktop, right. I think a happy medium can be reached with certain distros trying to piece together a newbie friendly Linux desktop that moves towards some of the point you mentioned originally. As I understand it, Xandros and Linspire are working towards these ends. I just don't agree with the argument that 'Linux' in general needs to be more user-friendly. In my opinion (for what it's worth) Linux (and UNIX in general) is just fine the way it is. If the day comes where I have to point and drool my way through a gui to admin my Linux box, that is the day I move to FreeBSD... as this is exactly why I left MS all those years ago in the first place... the obscurity. $0.02... -d -- darren kirby :: Part of the problem since 1976 :: http://badcomputer.org "...the number of UNIX installations has grown to 10, with more expected..." - Dennis Ritchie and Ken Thompson, June 1972 -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:57:10 -0500 (EST), A. Khattri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Dave Nebinger wrote: > > > Unfortunately, Holly, I don't think linux will be ready for the desktop for > > quite awhile (yes, that does make me sad). > > Novell disagrees: > http://business.newsforge.com/business/05/03/23/1755222.shtml?tid=152&tid=2&tid=37&tid=18 > http://www.cbronline.com/article_news.asp?guid=397A879F-C1BB-4CBE-A8A4-633DE1B25200 > > AT&T disagrees: > http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=1103&sid=aZ2JnBlm5tOs&refer=us > > Various governments disagree: > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/29/technology/29computer.html? > > The tide is turning. Yeah, Linux on the business desktop is going to happen, or really already has in so many places. Where Linux won't happen on the desktop in any big way is in the home. Configuration is too difficult. Until all configuration for a standard home machine can be handled in gui apps somewhere it won't work since Grandma and her 7 year old grand daughter cannot be expect to run vi. My now 12 going on 13 year old son has never had anything other than Linux. He got his first machine at 8 or 9. He used to bitch about things here and there, and still does once in awhile, but with Cedega he can play Half Life. He does all homework with Open Office and the Gimp. He and I are trying to set up some sort of video capture/movie edit setup for him to capture XBox things he wants to show people. It works. Kids are very adaptable. They will complain but it stops pretty quickly. I wanted mine on Linux because I especially didn't want a kid using Windows on my network. It's bad enough with an adult doing it. My biggest worry now is Internet predators. I wish there was a real solution for that sort of stuff under Linux, like Net-nanny etc. under Windows. That's what scares me as a parent. - Mark -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
RE: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
> My biggest worry now is Internet predators. I wish there was a real > solution for that sort of stuff under Linux, like Net-nanny etc. under > Windows. That's what scares me as a parent. Heard of squid? It's only the standard proxy for linux-based systems and kicks the crap out of net nanny... -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:57:10 -0500 (EST), A. Khattri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Dave Nebinger wrote: > > > Unfortunately, Holly, I don't think linux will be ready for the desktop for > > quite awhile (yes, that does make me sad). > > Novell disagrees: > http://business.newsforge.com/business/05/03/23/1755222.shtml?tid=152&tid=2&tid=37&tid=18 > http://www.cbronline.com/article_news.asp?guid=397A879F-C1BB-4CBE-A8A4-633DE1B25200 > > AT&T disagrees: > http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=1103&sid=aZ2JnBlm5tOs&refer=us > > Various governments disagree: > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/29/technology/29computer.html? > > The tide is turning. Yeah, Linux on the business desktop is going to happen, or really already has in so many places. Where Linux won't happen on the desktop in any big way is in the home. Configuration is too difficult. Until all configuration for a standard home machine can be handled in gui apps somewhere it won't work since Grandma and her 7 year old grand daughter cannot be expect to run vi. My now 12 going on 13 year old son has never had anything other than Linux. He got his first machine at 8 or 9. He used to bitch about things here and there, and still does once in awhile, but with Cedega he can play Half Life. He does all homework with Open Office and the Gimp. He and I are trying to set up some sort of video capture/movie edit setup for him to capture XBox things he wants to show people. It works. Kids are very adaptable. They will complain but it stops pretty quickly. I wanted mine on Linux because I especially didn't want a kid using Windows on my network. It's bad enough with an adult doing it. My biggest worry now is Internet predators. I wish there was a real solution for that sort of stuff under Linux, like Net-nanny etc. under Windows. That's what scares me as a parent. - Mark -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:57:10 -0500 (EST), A. Khattri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Dave Nebinger wrote: > > > Unfortunately, Holly, I don't think linux will be ready for the desktop for > > quite awhile (yes, that does make me sad). > > Novell disagrees: > http://business.newsforge.com/business/05/03/23/1755222.shtml?tid=152&tid=2&tid=37&tid=18 > http://www.cbronline.com/article_news.asp?guid=397A879F-C1BB-4CBE-A8A4-633DE1B25200 > > AT&T disagrees: > http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=1103&sid=aZ2JnBlm5tOs&refer=us > > Various governments disagree: > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/29/technology/29computer.html? > > The tide is turning. Yeah, Linux on the business desktop is going to happen, or really already has in so many places. Where Linux won't happen on the desktop in any big way is in the home. Configuration is too difficult. Until all configuration for a standard home machine can be handled in gui apps somewhere it won't work since Grandma and her 7 year old grand daughter cannot be expect to run vi. My now 12 going on 13 year old son has never had anything other than Linux. He got his first machine at 8 or 9. He used to bitch about things here and there, and still does once in awhile, but with Cedega he can play Half Life. He does all homework with Open Office and the Gimp. He and I are trying to set up some sort of video capture/movie edit setup for him to capture XBox things he wants to show people. It works. Kids are very adaptable. They will complain but it stops pretty quickly. I wanted mine on Linux because I especially didn't want a kid using Windows on my network. It's bad enough with an adult doing it. My biggest worry now is Internet predators. I wish there was a real solution for that sort of stuff under Linux, like Net-nanny etc. under Windows. That's what scares me as a parent. - Mark -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
RE: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
> > Unfortunately, Holly, I don't think linux will be ready for the desktop > for > > quite awhile (yes, that does make me sad). > > Novell disagrees: [snip] > > AT&T disagrees: [snip] > > Various governments disagree: [double-snip for an nytimes link] > > The tide is turning. Only if you can't see the hype and hidden agendas of those folks. Novell wants you to buy into it to build a consumer base for their own flavor (which, on the surface, looks and acts a lot like windows). AT&T is only testing it out, but basically they're looking to gain some leverage against M$ in regards to pricing. Brazil and other third world nations don't really have the cash that M$ tries to extort from them. Hype and agendas aside, there is no momentum in the mass market to move from windows to linux. I'd be real happy if there was as M$ IMHO is holding back the development of systems and technology and general innovation, but that's another thread all together. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:57:10 -0500 (EST), A. Khattri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Dave Nebinger wrote: > > > Unfortunately, Holly, I don't think linux will be ready for the desktop for > > quite awhile (yes, that does make me sad). > > Novell disagrees: > http://business.newsforge.com/business/05/03/23/1755222.shtml?tid=152&tid=2&tid=37&tid=18 > http://www.cbronline.com/article_news.asp?guid=397A879F-C1BB-4CBE-A8A4-633DE1B25200 > > AT&T disagrees: > http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=1103&sid=aZ2JnBlm5tOs&refer=us > > Various governments disagree: > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/29/technology/29computer.html? > > The tide is turning. Yeah, Linux on the business desktop is going to happen, or really already has in so many places. Where Linux won't happen on the desktop in any big way is in the home. Configuration is too difficult. Until all configuration for a standard home machine can be handled in gui apps somewhere it won't work since Grandma and her 7 year old grand daughter cannot be expect to run vi. My now 12 going on 13 year old son has never had anything other than Linux. He got his first machine at 8 or 9. He used to bitch about things here and there, and still does once in awhile, but with Cedega he can play Half Life. He does all homework with Open Office and the Gimp. He and I are trying to set up some sort of video capture/movie edit setup for him to capture XBox things he wants to show people. It works. Kids are very adaptable. They will complain but it stops pretty quickly. I wanted mine on Linux because I especially didn't want a kid using Windows on my network. It's bad enough with an adult doing it. My biggest worry now is Internet predators. I wish there was a real solution for that sort of stuff under Linux, like Net-nanny etc. under Windows. That's what scares me as a parent. - Mark -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
RE: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Dave Nebinger wrote: > Unfortunately, Holly, I don't think linux will be ready for the desktop for > quite awhile (yes, that does make me sad). Novell disagrees: http://business.newsforge.com/business/05/03/23/1755222.shtml?tid=152&tid=2&tid=37&tid=18 http://www.cbronline.com/article_news.asp?guid=397A879F-C1BB-4CBE-A8A4-633DE1B25200 AT&T disagrees: http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=1103&sid=aZ2JnBlm5tOs&refer=us Various governments disagree: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/29/technology/29computer.html? The tide is turning. -- -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
RE: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
> Why does something have to act/look like Windows to be ready for the > desktop. If that's what you need/want just use Windows already! It's not that the next OS has to act/look like windows to supplant windows, it's a question of usability... There's a lot of research that has been done and is ongoing re: user interface design. So far the research supports the statement that "simpler is better" in regards to usability is concerned. The replacement for windows will be one that provides a simpler, consistent interface, not one that is more complex and requires intimate details of low-level file editing and command prompt access, the current face of linux. I love linux and use it everywhere except my 7 year old daughter's computer (granted I could probably do it there too except the sites that she likes to use are too dependent upon IE). And I won't go back to windows, not anytime soon. But I can realistically gauge how much it would take to move organizations in the direction of linux and understand where 'linux is ready for the desktop' zealots miss the mark. Most organizations are looking to cut costs and simplify their infrastructure (again to cut costs). Linux on the desktop won't do that in it's current state and would have to be significantly dumb-downed before it can happen. I for one am glad it's not going in that direction. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
quoth the Dave Nebinger: > > We can't make Linux "better" and "ready for the desktop"-- which does > > *not* mean we have to do everything via a GUI, dagnabit; people can > > certainly use the command-line comfortably *if they know how*-- unless > > we identify where people are falling over it and how to remove the > > obstacles to their understanding and ease-of-use. Difficulties using > > error output effectively looks like an obstacle to ease-of-use to me. > > Heaven knows I won't know what to do about it if I do find an "answer" > > (or the beginnings of one), unless that answer is "add to the docs", but > > we all contribute what we can, and asking the question in the first > > place is what I can :-) . > > Unfortunately, Holly, I don't think linux will be ready for the desktop for > quite awhile (yes, that does make me sad). This is a non-argument. I have been using Linux as my main workstation for over 2 years. I am sure several people on this list have been using a Linux desktop much longer than that. Right from the beginning the parrots said 'not ready for the desktop'. I have no doubt that they will be saying it in 10 years. So when will it be ready? When all facets of security have been traded in favor of convenience? When some arbitrary percentage of people are using it? No. I rather think that the average person is not ready for the Linux desktop. Your 4 point plan to make Linux desktop ready looks to me like removing everything I like about Linux, and replacing it with useless bloat, and moddlecoddling touchy feely nonsense that just gets in the way of a 'real' user, and 'real' work. This may be an eliteist attitude, but I don't want Linux dumbed down. If someone can't make a go of it, stick to Windows or Mac. I am sick and tired of seeing truly great ideas and technology have everything good and innovative sucked out until it is ready for consumption by the masses. Popular music anyone? Television? Only two examples of of great mediums that are now a vapid wasteland because they cater to the lowest-common denominator tastes of Joe Sixpack and Suzy Lunchpail. Why does something have to act/look like Windows to be ready for the desktop. If that's what you need/want just use Windows already! This rant was written using a Linux Desktop -d -- darren kirby :: Part of the problem since 1976 :: http://badcomputer.org "...the number of UNIX installations has grown to 10, with more expected..." - Dennis Ritchie and Ken Thompson, June 1972 pgp4JGJ2NTvYZ.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
Much of this is already possible actually. There is certainly nothing that can't be automated or configured in gentoo with effort. However, distros like Mandrake already hide startup output via splash screen and allow configuration of just about everything through KDE and their own tools. I'm pretty sure I've seen a redhat setup that almost automatically self updated too. But to disallow the manual editting of configuration files would cripple linux as it is known today. I'm not sure why that would be a requirement. Anyway, I think linux IS ready for the typical desktop user, but I don't think the typical desktop user would use gentoo. Gentoo is a power user/administator paradise. But also don't forget that the typical desktop user expects that Windows will be preinstalled, configured, and ready to use. A preinstalled and configured linux box with Mandrake or Ubuntu, would probably work just as well. On (2005-03-30 08:20), Dave Nebinger wrote: > > We can't make Linux "better" and "ready for the desktop"-- which does > > *not* mean we have to do everything via a GUI, dagnabit; people can > > certainly use the command-line comfortably *if they know how*-- unless > > we identify where people are falling over it and how to remove the > > obstacles to their understanding and ease-of-use. Difficulties using > > error output effectively looks like an obstacle to ease-of-use to me. > > Heaven knows I won't know what to do about it if I do find an "answer" > > (or the beginnings of one), unless that answer is "add to the docs", but > > we all contribute what we can, and asking the question in the first > > place is what I can :-) . > > Unfortunately, Holly, I don't think linux will be ready for the desktop for > quite awhile (yes, that does make me sad). > > Because of the wide use of windows any replacement OS (be it linux, bsd, > macosx, or whatever) would have to function in a similar way before it would > be accepted. The following would be a base set of requirements for such a > replacement: > > 1. Boot totally into a gui - no startup output. Those messages are great > for someone trying to diagnose an issue, but are just confusing to some and > unnecessary to most, which is why windows boots to gui and totally hides > this kind of information. > > 2. Totally configurable via gui - no low-level file editing. As power > users this is something that we want/need, but the windows user expects to > pull up a dialog for the program and click checkboxes to turn things on and > off. I can just imagine the dialogs necessary to configure something like > postfix or sendmail ;-) > > 3. Less service-oriented and more interactive. Sure we run ftp servers, > web servers, mail servers, etc. And we expect them to go off and do those > things without bothering us. But at this point the windows user expects > visual feedback on everything - a mail icon indicating there's new mail in > outlook, blinking network light showing network activity, other tray icons > with menus allowing you to get to the background 'services' right away. > > 4. Self-updating. M$ has been pretty poor in this respect but they are > actively working on it and getting better. My windows box downloads updates > automatically, installs them with a nice progress bar (and not a lot of > detail), and either a) handles whatever is necessary to get the new updates > used or b) asks me to reboot for the changes to take effect. The whole > process is totally brain-dead, and that's what the average windows user is > going to expect. > > I think all of these things would have to come to pass before linux would > make it on the desktop, and I'm not sure I believe they will ever happen. > Nobody wants to take linux in the direction of windows (thankfully), and > since most of the linux developers are power-users they have no reason to > want or include this kind of brain-dead junk in their software. > > > > -- > gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list > -- A statistician, who refused to fly after reading of the alarmingly high probability that there will be a bomb on any given plane, realized that the probability of there being two bombs on any given flight is very low. Now, whenever he flies, he carries a bomb with him. pgpJVo7gamniV.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
*sigh* I guess I just have to get over the fact that such a simple oversight has marked me a typical windows user, but seeing as how no one wants to leave my name out of this, I might as well try to respond constructively. As has been said, some people, like myself, are just a little newer to gentoo than others or by sheer dumb luck didn't make all the same mistakes as everyone else. For the record the error was in /etc/conf.d/hdparm (not where a place anyone suggested). Now I dare ask... is there any reason that commands are being executed in in a configuration directory? Yes, yes, I suppose there could be uses for every line in the config files to be treated like regular bash code, but logically command not found error should not occur in a configuration file unless that config file is not really a config file. I did run several grep's on several files, but finding the offending "B" in like looking for a needle in a haystack, especially since I didn't know which haystack to search. How do we make it better? We could point out the exact offending file. Or say that an error was found while parsing config files or init scripts. There are plenty of things that could be done, but I'm not sure it's worth the effort in this case as it was just a simple typo that spawned this whole discussion. Dave On (2005-03-30 14:49), Holly Bostick wrote: > Nicolas Bailey wrote: > >I think you are being a little unfair in your judgement. Thinking to > >look in /etc/init.d, etc. relies on at least some knowledge that not > >every Gentoo user will have (esp. the newer variety). The same is > >true in the case above. Either you didn't know or didn't immediately > >think of the consequences of the CONFIG_PROTECT settings. > > > >I'd tend to lend your arguments more merit if the error in question > >said something to the effect of: > > > >/etc/init.d/hdparm: line 6: B: command not found > > > >Then a quick "head /etc/init.d/hdparm" would reveal the answer in a > >much less obfuscated manner. > > > >As it stands, I think you are wanting to require the user happen to > >know some semi-trivial Gentoo knowledge that they won't necessarily. > > I'm not requiring anything; i'm *asking*. > > For all I know, your example > > > /etc/init.d/hdparm: line 6: B: command not found > > is no more understandable to a "typical user" than the actual error was, > and that's what I'm wondering about. > > After all, the only difference is that your example is more *direct*, > not necessarily more *clear*, as Dave indicated in his response. > > If the user can read and comprehend that your example indicates that one > should look in the specific file /etc/init.d/hdparm for a random "B" > (which is probably a typo, but it even requires some technical knowledge > or experience to recognize that, doesn't it?), then they can reasonably > be presumed to be able to comprehend that in the original error they > should look in the specific file /var/lib/init.d/depcache; the only > difference between the real error and your example is that they will > actually *find* the "B" in hdparm, but they will only find calls to > files in /etc/ in depcache, where they would then have to manually > search (or, preferably, grep, which is admittedly an advanced skill imo) > for the file likely to contain the typo. So with the original error, the > sequence of actions is unchanged (look in the file specified by the > error output, for the string indicated in the error output), just > longer-- if you understand the stderr output in the first place. > > But would said user be able to succeed if the error message was direct, > or is the message already too obtuse to be understood, direct or > indirect? If so, why? > > Is the issue that users need to be trained in understanding error > message syntax because neither the indirect or direct messages are > understandable if you don't know it, and where should such training or > basic documentation be presented? > > Or is the error message comprehensible, but people don't read it at all? > > That's a social engineering issue-- but which one of the several that A. > Khattri indicated? "Laziness" (users can't be bothered/don't have time > to read)? Trained lack of confidence (long-term Windows use trains you > very heavily in the belief that you are incompetent to touch > system/application files, no matter whether you actually are or not)? > Trained despair (if people are very used to Windows' incomprehensible > error messages, they may not even look at stderr output, certain that it > is similarly useless)? Or is it simply that "average computer users" > (whoever they are) have no interest in self-reliance and prefer to "ask > the expert", whether or not that is in fact necessary? > > If one or more of these is in fact the problem, how can it be moderated, > minimized or eliminated? > > We can't make Linux "better" and "ready for the desktop"-- which does > *not* mean
RE: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
> We can't make Linux "better" and "ready for the desktop"-- which does > *not* mean we have to do everything via a GUI, dagnabit; people can > certainly use the command-line comfortably *if they know how*-- unless > we identify where people are falling over it and how to remove the > obstacles to their understanding and ease-of-use. Difficulties using > error output effectively looks like an obstacle to ease-of-use to me. > Heaven knows I won't know what to do about it if I do find an "answer" > (or the beginnings of one), unless that answer is "add to the docs", but > we all contribute what we can, and asking the question in the first > place is what I can :-) . Unfortunately, Holly, I don't think linux will be ready for the desktop for quite awhile (yes, that does make me sad). Because of the wide use of windows any replacement OS (be it linux, bsd, macosx, or whatever) would have to function in a similar way before it would be accepted. The following would be a base set of requirements for such a replacement: 1. Boot totally into a gui - no startup output. Those messages are great for someone trying to diagnose an issue, but are just confusing to some and unnecessary to most, which is why windows boots to gui and totally hides this kind of information. 2. Totally configurable via gui - no low-level file editing. As power users this is something that we want/need, but the windows user expects to pull up a dialog for the program and click checkboxes to turn things on and off. I can just imagine the dialogs necessary to configure something like postfix or sendmail ;-) 3. Less service-oriented and more interactive. Sure we run ftp servers, web servers, mail servers, etc. And we expect them to go off and do those things without bothering us. But at this point the windows user expects visual feedback on everything - a mail icon indicating there's new mail in outlook, blinking network light showing network activity, other tray icons with menus allowing you to get to the background 'services' right away. 4. Self-updating. M$ has been pretty poor in this respect but they are actively working on it and getting better. My windows box downloads updates automatically, installs them with a nice progress bar (and not a lot of detail), and either a) handles whatever is necessary to get the new updates used or b) asks me to reboot for the changes to take effect. The whole process is totally brain-dead, and that's what the average windows user is going to expect. I think all of these things would have to come to pass before linux would make it on the desktop, and I'm not sure I believe they will ever happen. Nobody wants to take linux in the direction of windows (thankfully), and since most of the linux developers are power-users they have no reason to want or include this kind of brain-dead junk in their software. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
Nicolas Bailey wrote: I think you are being a little unfair in your judgement. Thinking to look in /etc/init.d, etc. relies on at least some knowledge that not every Gentoo user will have (esp. the newer variety). The same is true in the case above. Either you didn't know or didn't immediately think of the consequences of the CONFIG_PROTECT settings. I'd tend to lend your arguments more merit if the error in question said something to the effect of: /etc/init.d/hdparm: line 6: B: command not found Then a quick "head /etc/init.d/hdparm" would reveal the answer in a much less obfuscated manner. As it stands, I think you are wanting to require the user happen to know some semi-trivial Gentoo knowledge that they won't necessarily. I'm not requiring anything; i'm *asking*. For all I know, your example > /etc/init.d/hdparm: line 6: B: command not found is no more understandable to a "typical user" than the actual error was, and that's what I'm wondering about. After all, the only difference is that your example is more *direct*, not necessarily more *clear*, as Dave indicated in his response. If the user can read and comprehend that your example indicates that one should look in the specific file /etc/init.d/hdparm for a random "B" (which is probably a typo, but it even requires some technical knowledge or experience to recognize that, doesn't it?), then they can reasonably be presumed to be able to comprehend that in the original error they should look in the specific file /var/lib/init.d/depcache; the only difference between the real error and your example is that they will actually *find* the "B" in hdparm, but they will only find calls to files in /etc/ in depcache, where they would then have to manually search (or, preferably, grep, which is admittedly an advanced skill imo) for the file likely to contain the typo. So with the original error, the sequence of actions is unchanged (look in the file specified by the error output, for the string indicated in the error output), just longer-- if you understand the stderr output in the first place. But would said user be able to succeed if the error message was direct, or is the message already too obtuse to be understood, direct or indirect? If so, why? Is the issue that users need to be trained in understanding error message syntax because neither the indirect or direct messages are understandable if you don't know it, and where should such training or basic documentation be presented? Or is the error message comprehensible, but people don't read it at all? That's a social engineering issue-- but which one of the several that A. Khattri indicated? "Laziness" (users can't be bothered/don't have time to read)? Trained lack of confidence (long-term Windows use trains you very heavily in the belief that you are incompetent to touch system/application files, no matter whether you actually are or not)? Trained despair (if people are very used to Windows' incomprehensible error messages, they may not even look at stderr output, certain that it is similarly useless)? Or is it simply that "average computer users" (whoever they are) have no interest in self-reliance and prefer to "ask the expert", whether or not that is in fact necessary? If one or more of these is in fact the problem, how can it be moderated, minimized or eliminated? We can't make Linux "better" and "ready for the desktop"-- which does *not* mean we have to do everything via a GUI, dagnabit; people can certainly use the command-line comfortably *if they know how*-- unless we identify where people are falling over it and how to remove the obstacles to their understanding and ease-of-use. Difficulties using error output effectively looks like an obstacle to ease-of-use to me. Heaven knows I won't know what to do about it if I do find an "answer" (or the beginnings of one), unless that answer is "add to the docs", but we all contribute what we can, and asking the question in the first place is what I can :-) . Holly -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
RE: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
On Tue, 29 Mar 2005, Dave Nebinger wrote: > Hmm, I take issue with the inference that the message was understandable. As Holly said earlier - not really talking about you specifically. > The error message itself pointed to the depcache file, yet the error was in > a script in /etc/init.d. Yes, the depcache file is readable but to approach > tracking that down you're saying you're willing to dive into the internals > of gentoo with (but mostly w/o) the knowledge needed to understand and > follow along. True, but your original post talked about seeing that error during the boot process when /sbin/rc runs. This to *me* immediately narrowed down the general area of investigation to the booting process, boot files and scripts, etc. > Many folks, especially gentoo newbies, don't have that foundation. It's > easier if you're a seasoned unix/linux user as you don't have the fear of > digging into the files to find out what's going on, but that experience is > not shared by all. Ah yes, the fear of "breaking the computer" - I believe that was user (3) :-) -- -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
> OK, now that the problem has been solved, I'd like to ask a question > about why this was a problem in the first place. Not getting on you, > Dave, I'm just curious about a "user psychology issue". I think what you are seeing is that people will see and respond to different errors differently. As was mentioned by most people, it wasn't necessarily clear what file the hidden "B" might be located in. It's the way each person's individual intuition works. Allow me another example: > 2) I would have noticed something like depcache showing up in etc-update > for that reason (it would be so unusual), although I would not have edited > it had it come up, but accepted changes. When I first read this, my intuition immediately said "why in the world would depcache ever show up here?" Why did I think that? Well, mainly because the directory it is in is not CONFIG_PROTECTed by default. If for some reason you had that directory in /var set to CONFIG_PROTECT, you'd surely know about it. Still, it obviously seemed like it *could* happen to you; thus, you used it in your example. I think you are being a little unfair in your judgement. Thinking to look in /etc/init.d, etc. relies on at least some knowledge that not every Gentoo user will have (esp. the newer variety). The same is true in the case above. Either you didn't know or didn't immediately think of the consequences of the CONFIG_PROTECT settings. I'd tend to lend your arguments more merit if the error in question said something to the effect of: /etc/init.d/hdparm: line 6: B: command not found Then a quick "head /etc/init.d/hdparm" would reveal the answer in a much less obfuscated manner. As it stands, I think you are wanting to require the user happen to know some semi-trivial Gentoo knowledge that they won't necessarily. Nick -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
RE: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
> > In any case, Dave still had to search for the typo one way or another > > even with the advice; this was unavoidable. But the error message > > already contained the information on where to start the search (and in > > fact what was wrong, by indicating that there was a typo somewhere). So > > what I am wondering (again, nothing about you personally, Dave, you > > simply seem to have a fairly typical user issue), is why users have > > difficulty understanding these messages, and using them effectively. Hmm, I take issue with the inference that the message was understandable. The error message itself pointed to the depcache file, yet the error was in a script in /etc/init.d. Yes, the depcache file is readable but to approach tracking that down you're saying you're willing to dive into the internals of gentoo with (but mostly w/o) the knowledge needed to understand and follow along. Many folks, especially gentoo newbies, don't have that foundation. It's easier if you're a seasoned unix/linux user as you don't have the fear of digging into the files to find out what's going on, but that experience is not shared by all. > As someone who works in support (ISP), I find a lot of people: > > 1) Dont read the error message given (made worse by the fact that people >read less these days!). You can send these people FAQs, warning emails, >whatever and they won't read them. Recent case in point: user was over >mailbox quota and was sent automated warning when they hit 90% - advice >on how to clean out their mailbox is given in a URL in the email, but >does anyone read that??? > > 2) Read the error message but simply dont get it - these are the people >who drive a car but know nothing about the basic mechanics of how the >engine propels the vehicle (these people also rarely change their oil >or do any basic maintenance on their cars). > > 3) Too scared to read the error - many people fear technology or fear that >they may "break the computer" by poking around. (IMHO, poking around >and tinkering however are the BEST ways to learn anything). > > 4) Read the error message and use it as a starting point to systematically >track down the problem - these users are very rare (though there's a >lot of them in the Linux community). Users in groups (1), (2) and (3) >would consider these people "power users". The fifth group should include those that know, by experience, that a given error message actually means something completely different than what's being reported. This depcache error was a perfect example; I asked Dave to send me his depcache file so I could see what it contained - I was going to start tracking the issue from the source (falling under group number 4, I guess). Another gentoo person replied that Dave should look for B in /etc/init.d scripts; obviously he had the experience to know that the depcache error translated into an invalid command in one of the scripts. The error message I hate to see is the error coming out of emerge, the 'failed to build' error. For reference: > !!! ERROR: net-misc/wget-1.9.1-r3 failed. > !!! Function src_compile, Line 54, Exitcode 2 > !!! (no error message) > !!! If you need support, post the topmost build error, > NOT this status message. This really doesn't translate into anything useful. If the failure occurred during the configure script run, the config.log contents are needed to understand what the error was. If the failure occurred during a compile or link, the full command line before the error is useful as well as other pertinent information (i.e. gcc version, gentoo version, basic 'emerge --info' output). With experience we know that info is necessary to diagnose a failure, but a generic "post the topmost build error" doesn't suffice. -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
On Tue, 29 Mar 2005, Holly Bostick wrote: > In any case, Dave still had to search for the typo one way or another > even with the advice; this was unavoidable. But the error message > already contained the information on where to start the search (and in > fact what was wrong, by indicating that there was a typo somewhere). So > what I am wondering (again, nothing about you personally, Dave, you > simply seem to have a fairly typical user issue), is why users have > difficulty understanding these messages, and using them effectively. As someone who works in support (ISP), I find a lot of people: 1) Dont read the error message given (made worse by the fact that people read less these days!). You can send these people FAQs, warning emails, whatever and they won't read them. Recent case in point: user was over mailbox quota and was sent automated warning when they hit 90% - advice on how to clean out their mailbox is given in a URL in the email, but does anyone read that??? 2) Read the error message but simply dont get it - these are the people who drive a car but know nothing about the basic mechanics of how the engine propels the vehicle (these people also rarely change their oil or do any basic maintenance on their cars). 3) Too scared to read the error - many people fear technology or fear that they may "break the computer" by poking around. (IMHO, poking around and tinkering however are the BEST ways to learn anything). 4) Read the error message and use it as a starting point to systematically track down the problem - these users are very rare (though there's a lot of them in the Linux community). Users in groups (1), (2) and (3) would consider these people "power users". -- -- gentoo-user@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
Wow, that was a long read. Let me first say that I'm a little bit insulted at having my post compared to a typical Windows user :P. With that out of the way, it really wasn't a very clear message. I knew that the two lines /var/lib/init.d/depcache: line 6: B: command not found /sbin/rc: line 6: B: command not found must be referring to some other commonly referenced file, but had no idea where to start looking. If the scripts had pointed out the actual file where the error had occurred, then it would have been a simple resolution. Everything is a learning experience I suppose. I'm sure next time I have a similar "command not found" error, I'll know where to look, but I don't see how "command not found" would intuitively lead me to the /etc/conf.d and /etc/init.d directories. Of course the meaning of "command not found" is clear, but the location of the command in question was the problem. Dave On (2005-03-29 12:36), Holly Bostick wrote: > Dave V wrote: > > You got me looking in the right places at least. Turned out that the > offending file was in /etc/conf.d. I somehow managed to insert a random > B character on line 6 of /etc/conf.d/hdparm. Thanks for the help all. > > > > On (2005-03-28 12:54), A. Khattri wrote: > >>On Mon, 28 Mar 2005, Dave V wrote: > >> > >>>Every time I emerge I get this message: > >>> > >>> * Caching service dependencies... > >>>/var/lib/init.d/depcache: line 6: B: command not found > >>> > >>>I also get this when booting in the middle of the normal service > startup messages: > >>> > >>>/sbin/rc: line 6: B: command not found > >>> > >>>This problem has been hanging around for a while and so far hasn't > caused any noticable trouble, but the locations are a bit worrisome. Any > idea how I can fix this or what might be causing it? > >>What does "grep B /etc/init.d/*" say? > >> > >> > > OK, now that the problem has been solved, I'd like to ask a question > about why this was a problem in the first place. Not getting on you, > Dave, I'm just curious about a "user psychology issue". > > The error message is quite clear-- it gives a location and a standard > (meaning, well-understood) error: "command not found". > > So, from the error, we already know that there is a "B" command being > called, which does not exist (as we also know just from common sense; I > certainly don't know every binary name available to Linux, but "B" just > doesn't seem likely to be one of them). We also know (hopefully), even > from limited experience, that a "Command not found" error is often > caused by a typo; the alternative being the program not being installed > in the first place if spelled correctly, but in this case, where the > command not found is something like "B", which one can easily guess is > not a real command, we can pretty much say "typo". > > So we know we've got a typo somewhere, and the error message tells us > the beginning of the trail to locate it, /var/lib/init.d/depcache. > > depcache is openable via less (and possibly other text editors), so that > would be the first thing to check for this typo. Of course, I don't have > this error, but looking at depcache, it's pretty easy to see that the > "B" is likely not there-- and I wouldn't have expected it in depcache > anyway, since I have a general idea that depcache (given that it has the > word "cache" in its name) is something that calls other scripts. > Besides, I have never edited depcache (so I could not have inserted a > random "B" into it). "Even I" know this, because 1) files in /var/ are > not something normally edited or even looked at by a user, and 2) I > would have noticed something like depcache showing up in etc-update for > that reason (it would be so unusual), although I would not have edited > it had it come up, but accepted changes. Which means that 3) if the typo > really was in depcache, it was a developer typo which is not so likely > for a random "B", and even if it was a developer typo, 4) it's a bug > that's going to be fixed by the developers, probably quite soon. So the > typo being in depcache itself is still possible, but the greatest > possiblility is that I the user made the typo, which means it's not in > depcache itself (though, since I'm opening depcache anyway, I'll scan > for it). What looking at depcaches does tell me is what scripts/files > are likely candidates for the typo, because they're being called by it. > > What I see in depcache is a bunch of calls to services located in > /etc/init.d and then calls to configs in /etc/conf.d. (to the config for > the listed service for that section, net, and then /etc/rc). > > Hopefully, I have some sense which one of these I may have recently > edited, but even if not, I can look in the file list of these two > folders (and /etc/rc) and attempt to track down recently edited files, > or grep the /etc/ folder for "B\ " (I can use escape characters in grep, > can't I?) > > In any case, Dave stil
[gentoo-user] [OT] Users and errors (was: help "line 6: B: command not found" FIXED, user error in config file...)
Dave V wrote: > You got me looking in the right places at least. Turned out that the offending file was in /etc/conf.d. I somehow managed to insert a random B character on line 6 of /etc/conf.d/hdparm. Thanks for the help all. > > On (2005-03-28 12:54), A. Khattri wrote: >>On Mon, 28 Mar 2005, Dave V wrote: >> >>>Every time I emerge I get this message: >>> >>> * Caching service dependencies... >>>/var/lib/init.d/depcache: line 6: B: command not found >>> >>>I also get this when booting in the middle of the normal service startup messages: >>> >>>/sbin/rc: line 6: B: command not found >>> >>>This problem has been hanging around for a while and so far hasn't caused any noticable trouble, but the locations are a bit worrisome. Any idea how I can fix this or what might be causing it? >>What does "grep B /etc/init.d/*" say? >> >> OK, now that the problem has been solved, I'd like to ask a question about why this was a problem in the first place. Not getting on you, Dave, I'm just curious about a "user psychology issue". The error message is quite clear-- it gives a location and a standard (meaning, well-understood) error: "command not found". So, from the error, we already know that there is a "B" command being called, which does not exist (as we also know just from common sense; I certainly don't know every binary name available to Linux, but "B" just doesn't seem likely to be one of them). We also know (hopefully), even from limited experience, that a "Command not found" error is often caused by a typo; the alternative being the program not being installed in the first place if spelled correctly, but in this case, where the command not found is something like "B", which one can easily guess is not a real command, we can pretty much say "typo". So we know we've got a typo somewhere, and the error message tells us the beginning of the trail to locate it, /var/lib/init.d/depcache. depcache is openable via less (and possibly other text editors), so that would be the first thing to check for this typo. Of course, I don't have this error, but looking at depcache, it's pretty easy to see that the "B" is likely not there-- and I wouldn't have expected it in depcache anyway, since I have a general idea that depcache (given that it has the word "cache" in its name) is something that calls other scripts. Besides, I have never edited depcache (so I could not have inserted a random "B" into it). "Even I" know this, because 1) files in /var/ are not something normally edited or even looked at by a user, and 2) I would have noticed something like depcache showing up in etc-update for that reason (it would be so unusual), although I would not have edited it had it come up, but accepted changes. Which means that 3) if the typo really was in depcache, it was a developer typo which is not so likely for a random "B", and even if it was a developer typo, 4) it's a bug that's going to be fixed by the developers, probably quite soon. So the typo being in depcache itself is still possible, but the greatest possiblility is that I the user made the typo, which means it's not in depcache itself (though, since I'm opening depcache anyway, I'll scan for it). What looking at depcaches does tell me is what scripts/files are likely candidates for the typo, because they're being called by it. What I see in depcache is a bunch of calls to services located in /etc/init.d and then calls to configs in /etc/conf.d. (to the config for the listed service for that section, net, and then /etc/rc). Hopefully, I have some sense which one of these I may have recently edited, but even if not, I can look in the file list of these two folders (and /etc/rc) and attempt to track down recently edited files, or grep the /etc/ folder for "B\ " (I can use escape characters in grep, can't I?) In any case, Dave still had to search for the typo one way or another even with the advice; this was unavoidable. But the error message already contained the information on where to start the search (and in fact what was wrong, by indicating that there was a typo somewhere). So what I am wondering (again, nothing about you personally, Dave, you simply seem to have a fairly typical user issue), is why users have difficulty understanding these messages, and using them effectively. Are they perhaps so used to Windows that they don't expect error messages to be of any use, thus don't look at them? Does the fact that the error message is displayed in some semi-obtuse "term-speak" alarm people so much that they're convinced that they don't understand it before they even try? Or am I just weird that I can look at a message like that, know that I don't "understand" it (I know nothing whatsoever about depcache, neither what it says in the script, nor what it is "for", never mind how it does whatever it does), yet still see that there are two pieces of useful information in the message, and follow on from those clues, i
