Re: [gentoo-user] http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,1236319,00.asp
On Wednesday 10 September 2003 16:36, Jesper Fruergaard Andersen wrote: > On Friday 05 September 2003 20:06, Jason Stubbs wrote: > > > I would really hate that. Then I would have to look for an other disto > > > again. For some reason distos always seem to become more and more > > > "userfriendly", that is harder and harder to use if you don't want to > > > use the shiny gui interface they always seems to come up with. > > > > You are wrong. 'userfriendly' does not imply harder to use (for power > > users). Just because all those that have tried so far have failed, > > there's no logical step to say that it's impossible. Compare MS > > Exchange's method > > It does not imply but it seems to be that way in practice. > > > of > > configuration with Sendmail's - yes, we have postfix now but sendmail > > fits what I'm talking about better. Exchange's interface is easy to use > > and will set everything you want correctly - if the program doesn't work > > the way you want it to it's due to a bug in the server, not the > > interface. Sendmail will do everything you want it to but you have are > > much more likely to make a configuration error. > > > > Most people will say to this, "but Sendmail is more powerful!" What's > > that got to do with the price of fish? Exchange's real configuration lies > > partially in the registry and partially in configuration files (in a > > non-text format), either in it's application directory or active > > directory. From a programming perspective, isn't attaching a user > > interface on to the configuration files just as hard for either? With > > postfix, parsing and configuring it from a gui would be much easier than > > either. > > Whether you use text files or non-text files to store the configuration > does not make much of a differenct if you want to write a gui on top of it. > What to note is that the gui is enfact on top of the configuration file so > at best you can hope not to loose any expressive power. To keep the > expressive power of the configuration files you can try to immitate the > structure of the file in the gui, for a more complex program the probably > will not make a good gui. To make a good gui you probably have to > restructure it somehow and then make some more or less complex translation > back to the configuration file. In that process you will probably loose > some expressive power. That is anyway how it seems to be in practice. Only > some part of what the program is capable of doing can be configured from > the gui, that is the part that the GUI writer fount to be most important. > But ofcause as long as the gui supports you every need to the program that > is fine and I do prefer a gui to some simpler programs. > Then there is the issue of being able to do the configuration by some other > programe. It is i lot easier to make a script that outputs a configuration > file that a script that interacts with a gui. > Then you could just have the configuration files with the gui on top and > let the the people that want a gui use the gui and the rest can just modify > the configuration file by hand. That might be a good solution. The problem > is that the way the translation from the gui to the configuration file > often is implemented is by making some intermediat configuration file that > maps closely to the gui and translate that to the real configuration file > and as this approach gets implemented through out the system the system > becomes very dependent on those intermediat configurations files and it > becomes hard to be allowed, by the system, to edit some of the > configuration files by hand. > > > The point of userfriendlyness is not to limit users in what they can do > > so that they don't trip over themselves. The point is to make all options > > available (and easily understandable) and prevent configurations that > > meaningless in the domain of the application. > > That is one way to define userfriendlyness and it has some good points to > it. For one it does not in any way imply that a gui is the better choise > over a text file. All very good points! I think we agree - guis are good but their current implementations suck. That's about it innit? ;-) Jason -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,1236319,00.asp
On Friday 05 September 2003 20:06, Jason Stubbs wrote: > > I would really hate that. Then I would have to look for an other disto > > again. For some reason distos always seem to become more and more > > "userfriendly", that is harder and harder to use if you don't want to use > > the shiny gui interface they always seems to come up with. > > You are wrong. 'userfriendly' does not imply harder to use (for power > users). Just because all those that have tried so far have failed, there's > no logical step to say that it's impossible. Compare MS Exchange's method It does not imply but it seems to be that way in practice. > of > configuration with Sendmail's - yes, we have postfix now but sendmail fits > what I'm talking about better. Exchange's interface is easy to use and will > set everything you want correctly - if the program doesn't work the way you > want it to it's due to a bug in the server, not the interface. Sendmail > will do everything you want it to but you have are much more likely to make > a configuration error. > > Most people will say to this, "but Sendmail is more powerful!" What's that > got to do with the price of fish? Exchange's real configuration lies > partially in the registry and partially in configuration files (in a > non-text format), either in it's application directory or active directory. > From a programming perspective, isn't attaching a user interface on to the > configuration files just as hard for either? With postfix, parsing and > configuring it from a gui would be much easier than either. Whether you use text files or non-text files to store the configuration does not make much of a differenct if you want to write a gui on top of it. What to note is that the gui is enfact on top of the configuration file so at best you can hope not to loose any expressive power. To keep the expressive power of the configuration files you can try to immitate the structure of the file in the gui, for a more complex program the probably will not make a good gui. To make a good gui you probably have to restructure it somehow and then make some more or less complex translation back to the configuration file. In that process you will probably loose some expressive power. That is anyway how it seems to be in practice. Only some part of what the program is capable of doing can be configured from the gui, that is the part that the GUI writer fount to be most important. But ofcause as long as the gui supports you every need to the program that is fine and I do prefer a gui to some simpler programs. Then there is the issue of being able to do the configuration by some other programe. It is i lot easier to make a script that outputs a configuration file that a script that interacts with a gui. Then you could just have the configuration files with the gui on top and let the the people that want a gui use the gui and the rest can just modify the configuration file by hand. That might be a good solution. The problem is that the way the translation from the gui to the configuration file often is implemented is by making some intermediat configuration file that maps closely to the gui and translate that to the real configuration file and as this approach gets implemented through out the system the system becomes very dependent on those intermediat configurations files and it becomes hard to be allowed, by the system, to edit some of the configuration files by hand. > The point of userfriendlyness is not to limit users in what they can do so > that they don't trip over themselves. The point is to make all options > available (and easily understandable) and prevent configurations that > meaningless in the domain of the application. That is one way to define userfriendlyness and it has some good points to it. For one it does not in any way imply that a gui is the better choise over a text file. -- Jesper 15:16:50 up 13 min, 1 user, load average: 0.83, 1.16, 0.74 -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user]http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,1236319,00.asp
> Lack of defined purpose is half the problem, Linux started as a text > editor I thought that was EmacsOS. ;-) -- Martin pgp0.pgp Description: signature
Re: [gentoo-user]http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,1236319,00.asp
On Fri, 5 Sep 2003 12:30:04 +0100 "Rick [Kitty5]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Collins Richey wrote: > > Yes, of course. But my attitude: if the standard X drivers can run > > this card with AGP on this chipset, why can't nvidia? I'm really > > not interested in swapping motherboards just because the software > > can't cut it, most especially since I'm not a gamer. > > > Have had my fair share of flaky via chipsets before now, don't even > consider a via based board now for any machine. > > If your not a gamer, why do you care if AGP works or not? > Just the principal of the thing. -- Collins Richey - Denver Area if you fill your heart with regrets of yesterday and the worries of tomorrow, you have no today to be thankful for. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user]http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,1236319,00.asp
Collins Richey wrote: > Yes, of course. But my attitude: if the standard X drivers can run > this card with AGP on this chipset, why can't nvidia? I'm really not > interested in swapping motherboards just because the software can't > cut it, most especially since I'm not a gamer. Have had my fair share of flaky via chipsets before now, don't even consider a via based board now for any machine. If your not a gamer, why do you care if AGP works or not? Rick Kitty5 NewMedia http://Kitty5.com POV-Ray News & Resources http://Povray.co.uk TEL : +44 (01270) 501101 - ICQ : 15776037 PGP Public Key http://pgpkeys.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x231E1CEA -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,1236319,00.asp
On Thursday 04 September 2003 20:43, Jesper Fruergaard Andersen wrote: > On Thursday 04 September 2003 00:06, gabriel wrote: > > 1. the current interface is scary for people who want it to "just > > work"(TM). a reasonable gui skinning of the command line stuff would do > > great things for a distro. imagine, just double click "upgrade system" > > on your desktop, have it popup a window with all the command line stuff > > scrolling by and nice pretty watermark... then when it's all done, a > > nice gui "done". my grandmother would actually be ok with using linux > > then. linux needs "finishers". people who write the code that installs > > the mysql db and auto-configures the config files in /etc/ for people > > who don't know how and don't want to know. > > I would really hate that. Then I would have to look for an other disto > again. For some reason distos always seem to become more and more > "userfriendly", that is harder and harder to use if you don't want to use > the shiny gui interface they always seems to come up with. You are wrong. 'userfriendly' does not imply harder to use (for power users). Just because all those that have tried so far have failed, there's no logical step to say that it's impossible. Compare MS Exchange's method of configuration with Sendmail's - yes, we have postfix now but sendmail fits what I'm talking about better. Exchange's interface is easy to use and will set everything you want correctly - if the program doesn't work the way you want it to it's due to a bug in the server, not the interface. Sendmail will do everything you want it to but you have are much more likely to make a configuration error. Most people will say to this, "but Sendmail is more powerful!" What's that got to do with the price of fish? Exchange's real configuration lies partially in the registry and partially in configuration files (in a non-text format), either in it's application directory or active directory. From a programming perspective, isn't attaching a user interface on to the configuration files just as hard for either? With postfix, parsing and configuring it from a gui would be much easier than either. The point of userfriendlyness is not to limit users in what they can do so that they don't trip over themselves. The point is to make all options available (and easily understandable) and prevent configurations that meaningless in the domain of the application. Jason -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,1236319,00.asp
On Thursday 04 September 2003 00:06, gabriel wrote: > you're missing one simple point: cellphones are simple. a two-yearold > can figure them out. push buttons, talk. you're done. can you > remember your first time trying to install/use mysql? "how do you start No, I have never installed MySQL on my mobilephone. > this thing?" "what do you mean i haven't installed the database? what > did i just do then?"... But before you start using something like MySQL you really should read a few pages from the manual, otherwise you are not gonna make much sense of it anyway. > insane. he wanted a computer to watch tv on and record his shows. in > windows, this is a 20min process of "double-click, next, next, ok, > finish". in linux, its 2days or (in my case (thank you ati AIW)) > never. the guy's right on two very good points: But after that you really know that is going on and if it breaks tomorrow you know what to do. > 1. the current interface is scary for people who want it to "just > work"(TM). a reasonable gui skinning of the command line stuff would do > great things for a distro. imagine, just double click "upgrade system" > on your desktop, have it popup a window with all the command line stuff > scrolling by and nice pretty watermark... then when it's all done, a > nice gui "done". my grandmother would actually be ok with using linux > then. linux needs "finishers". people who write the code that installs > the mysql db and auto-configures the config files in /etc/ for people > who don't know how and don't want to know. I would really hate that. Then I would have to look for an other disto again. For some reason distos always seem to become more and more "userfriendly", that is harder and harder to use if you don't want to use the shiny gui interface they always seems to come up with. > i love linux. gentoo especially, but it's only good for people like > me... not this guy. so if we want people like him (and my grandmother) > to use it, then we have to work on #1 and push companies to do #2. So let Gentoo be for those how know a little about what they are doing and let the newkomers run Mandrake and the like. If you try to be the best at everything you will fail at everything. -- Jesper 20:38:41 up 1:22, 1 user, load average: 2.13, 2.29, 2.17 -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user]http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,1236319,00.asp
On Friday 05 September 2003 05:42, Collins Richey wrote: > On Thu, 4 Sep 2003 22:15:55 -0400 > > Ernie Schroder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > But not necessarily all the related hardware. I'm using the > > > nvidia drivers, but they crap out big time if I enable AGP, so I > > > have to run with AGP disabled. > > > > In My experience the AGP problem has a lot to do with your chipset. > > I couldn't run AGP on either of my VIA based boards. Switching over > > to an Nforce2 based board made the GeForce4 TI4200 ROCK! Glxgears > > runs at >6000 frames/second. Are you running a VIA chipset? > > Yes, of course. But my attitude: if the standard X drivers can run > this card with AGP on this chipset, why can't nvidia? I'm really not > interested in swapping motherboards just because the software can't > cut it, most especially since I'm not a gamer. Does that Xfree driver provide acceleration? Here is your answer... I have found out that VIA's chips just didn't met the requirements until the newer VIA chips, which are quite good. By the way the only hope to get AGP support on newer chips are the Nvidia binary drivers as my SIS655. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user]http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,1236319,00.asp
On Thu, 4 Sep 2003 22:15:55 -0400 Ernie Schroder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > But not necessarily all the related hardware. I'm using the nvidia > > drivers, but they crap out big time if I enable AGP, so I have to > > run with AGP disabled. > > In My experience the AGP problem has a lot to do with your chipset. I > couldn't run AGP on either of my VIA based boards. Switching over to > an Nforce2 based board made the GeForce4 TI4200 ROCK! Glxgears runs > at >6000 frames/second. Are you running a VIA chipset? > > Yes, of course. But my attitude: if the standard X drivers can run this card with AGP on this chipset, why can't nvidia? I'm really not interested in swapping motherboards just because the software can't cut it, most especially since I'm not a gamer. -- Collins Richey - Denver Area if you fill your heart with regrets of yesterday and the worries of tomorrow, you have no today to be thankful for. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user]http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,1236319,00.asp
On Thursday 04 September 2003 09:39 pm, Collins Richey wrote: > On Fri, 5 Sep 2003 00:58:20 +0100 > > "Rick [Kitty5]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Why should nvidia support projects to duplicate their drivers? > > They provide an excellent & regularly updated driver that's > > written & maintained by people that know the hardware inside out. > > But not necessarily all the related hardware. I'm using the nvidia > drivers, but they crap out big time if I enable AGP, so I have to > run with AGP disabled. In My experience the AGP problem has a lot to do with your chipset. I couldn't run AGP on either of my VIA based boards. Switching over to an Nforce2 based board made the GeForce4 TI4200 ROCK! Glxgears runs at >6000 frames/second. Are you running a VIA chipset? > > > Making the kernel as binary driver friendly as windows would be a > > great place to start ... > > Yep. It would be great if the kernel had a standard API for driver > modules that did not fall over each time the kernel developers get > a wild hair. -- Regards, Ernie 100% Microsoft and Intel free -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user]http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,1236319,00.asp
On Fri, 5 Sep 2003 00:58:20 +0100 "Rick [Kitty5]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Why should nvidia support projects to duplicate their drivers? They > provide an excellent & regularly updated driver that's written & > maintained by people that know the hardware inside out. But not necessarily all the related hardware. I'm using the nvidia drivers, but they crap out big time if I enable AGP, so I have to run with AGP disabled. > > Making the kernel as binary driver friendly as windows would be a > great place to start ... Yep. It would be great if the kernel had a standard API for driver modules that did not fall over each time the kernel developers get a wild hair. -- Collins Richey - Denver Area if you fill your heart with regrets of yesterday and the worries of tomorrow, you have no today to be thankful for. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user]http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,1236319,00.asp
gabriel wrote: >> This point is going to take a long while to resolve, and the ball is >> entirely in Linus's camp. For political reasons, allowing hw >> manufacturers to create binary only drivers has been made difficult, >> or at least allowed to remain difficult. > > it's not that they're trying to keep the process "difficult". it's > that they want the drivers to be free (as in freedom AND beer) -- and > i support this thinking. In an ideal world yes, but I cannot expect a competitive hardware manufacturer to be fully open with its drivers. as any windows gamer will tell you, drivers make a world of difference and it wouldn't be in a companies best interests to allow a competitor to see how their drivers achieve its performance. You should be jumping up and down with glee at the level of support Nvidia are providing to a such a teeny minority of its customers. your damned if you do and damned if you don't. > now i can understand (barely) that a corporation like ati, nvidia > etc. might not want to Free their driver code, but what i can't > understand is why they say that they "are behind linux" and then > don't contribute either financially or technically to any of the > projects attempting to develop drivers for their hardware. Nvidia can say they are behind Linux, they do provide an excellent binary driver & installer. if other companies followed it would make a lot of lives much simpler (as oppose to just providing a pre compiled module and some cryptic YMMV destructions on how to use it) Why should nvidia support projects to duplicate their drivers? They provide an excellent & regularly updated driver that's written & maintained by people that know the hardware inside out. It makes sense that the best people to support Nvidia are Nvidia. An open project would simply be so much wasted effort when there are so many areas of Linux that are in greater need of attention. Making the kernel as binary driver friendly as windows would be a great place to start and IMO would allow Linux to make massive in-roads into windows desktop territory. It would allow users to focus on actually using Linux rather than getting it working in the first place, and make it accessible to the vast majority of people who simply just don't care how or why anything works, just so long as it does. Rick Kitty5 NewMedia http://Kitty5.com POV-Ray News & Resources http://Povray.co.uk TEL : +44 (01270) 501101 - ICQ : 15776037 PGP Public Key http://pgpkeys.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x231E1CEA -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user]http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,1236319,00.asp
On September 3, 2003 01:59 pm, Rick [Kitty5] wrote: > gabriel wrote: > > 2. sadly, linux also needs corporate support. not the "we back > > linux" mantra recited by ibm, but actual driver support from hardware > > manufacturers so that products like video cards, sound cards and > > various usb webcams etc. "just work" out of the box, rather than > > requiring a long, painful search for howtos etc. > > This point is going to take a long while to resolve, and the ball is > entirely in Linus's camp. For political reasons, allowing hw manufacturers > to create binary only drivers has been made difficult, or at least allowed > to remain difficult. it's not that they're trying to keep the process "difficult". it's that they want the drivers to be free (as in freedom AND beer) -- and i support this thinking. now i can understand (barely) that a corporation like ati, nvidia etc. might not want to Free their driver code, but what i can't understand is why they say that they "are behind linux" and then don't contribute either financially or technically to any of the projects attempting to develop drivers for their hardware. if the gatos folks had some paid staff, or at least some technical help from ati, then maybe my video capture would work and this guy's PVR wouldn't have been such a nightmare. or better yet, had they just built an Free version of their video driver, then it could be incorporated into the kernel code, and i wouldn't have had to bother with gatos at all. (much pain, much suffering, don't reccomend). -- when the missionaries came to africa they had the bible and we had the land. they said "let us pray." we closed our eyes. when we opened them we had the bible and they had the land. - bishop Desmond Tutu -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user]http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,1236319,00.asp
Patrick wrote: > im just one of those people who belive that you should really use > somthing for the purpose > it was created... i dont think linux at the moment and untill now was > really meant for multimedia... Lack of defined purpose is half the problem, Linux started as a text editor Rick Kitty5 NewMedia http://Kitty5.com POV-Ray News & Resources http://Povray.co.uk TEL : +44 (01270) 501101 - ICQ : 15776037 PGP Public Key http://pgpkeys.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x231E1CEA -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user]http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,1236319,00.asp
gabriel wrote: > 2. sadly, linux also needs corporate support. not the "we back > linux" mantra recited by ibm, but actual driver support from hardware > manufacturers so that products like video cards, sound cards and > various usb webcams etc. "just work" out of the box, rather than > requiring a long, painful search for howtos etc. This point is going to take a long while to resolve, and the ball is entirely in Linus's camp. For political reasons, allowing hw manufacturers to create binary only drivers has been made difficult, or at least allowed to remain difficult. Rick Kitty5 NewMedia http://Kitty5.com POV-Ray News & Resources http://Povray.co.uk TEL : +44 (01270) 501101 - ICQ : 15776037 PGP Public Key http://pgpkeys.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x231E1CEA -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
RE: [gentoo-user] http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,1236319,00.asp
> > Your missing the point, its not about point & click moron proof Linux, its > about adding those all important finishing touches. > > If Linux software was for sale like the majority of windows software, the > authors would be under pressure to deliver a polished product, instead of > being prepared to release any old thing and leaving it to the user to mind > read their intentions / find all the new bugs. Pretty true, but it's not (mostly) for sale so we users don't get to be so pushy. Of course, we could pay some money... ;-) I think more to the point though is understanding who the target audience for most of this software is. Today most of the Linux stuff out there is not intended for us end-user types. (Yes, I'm one also. Not a drop of 'IT Guru blood in these veins.) Most of the software out there seems intended for people who actually like to edit config files and get really dirty making their machine hum. I think that's really cool for those folks. It's sort of like guys building fast cars in their garages. I wouldn't want to do it, but I'm in awe of what they can do with the car. I get your frustration. I've been there and given up trying to make either side be perfect for me. I happily use Windows and Linux together in my small home recording studio. They both do certain things very well. I'd happily move to Linux if it could do everything, but it cannot. For instance, see my thread some months about Linux being a complete browsing experience. It isn't. Out of the box I could not listen to any form of audio which is pretty bad for a guy in a recording studio, right?!? I still cannot look at Java pages, or even read pdf files in Mozilla. These IT guru guys don't realize just how dumb some of us end-user types are. Today, for me, Linux makes a great file server and a very safe email platform. In the audio area it gives me pretty good control over low-level audio routing and clocking, and it has some very nice helper apps, but the main recording applications, be they audio or MIDI don't compete, so there I still use Windows. I'm most disappointed that the Linux world doesn't take the 'out of the box browsing experience' more seriously. Most windows people (probably 98% conservatively) do nothing other than browse the web and read some email. Evolution has solved most of the email issues very well. Why do none of the browsers work out of the box? (Answer withheld...) ;-) > > EG, why do updates come in pairs? because the authors didn't test > the first > update properly and it broke something. Such sarcasm Rick! ;-) Do you manage to get updates done by only using a pair of updates? You're on a better update list than I am! ;-) - Mark -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,1236319,00.asp
On Wed, Sep 03, 2003 at 09:10:09AM -0500, Shawn wrote: > Lack of IQ can preclude using gentoo It's sure a shame it doesn't preclude running for public office Cheers, Dennis -- Dennis Soper[EMAIL PROTECTED] Network Supervisor Facilities Services-- The University of Oregon 1276 University of Oregon phone: 541-346-2286 Eugene, OR 97403 fax:541-346-2299 Please note that my email address has changed. Update your address book to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,1236319,00.asp
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday 03 September 2003 2:10 pm, Shawn wrote: > On Wed, 2003-09-03 at 07:59, Mark Fisher wrote: > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > > Hash: SHA1 > > > > On Wednesday 03 September 2003 11:09 am, Patrick wrote: > > > the thing still is that he really has to know what hes doing > > > and linux will hopefully never be a moron's operating system > > > > I totally agree. I guess this all comes down to 2 philosophies on the > > competing ends of the spectrum. > > I agree, but I don't think they compete at all. Basically its about IQ > and/or aptitude. After that, its about what fits the need. Maybe 'competing' was the wrong word, perhaps 'opposite' would be better. Afterall it is all about servicing the needs of different people. - -- Mark -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/VgtvzrmqzOOQUj8RAvupAKCpGuSAhTaYOtbuzrmpQmN8cN8JdACeNdOI N7NRbf4U8Pu1r9Ad+yQ02Dw= =86+E -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,1236319,00.asp
Patrick wrote: > Im just a ""i hate rpm"" kinda guy... and well... point and click > distros arent that much easier to get to do what you want... Your missing the point, its not about point & click moron proof Linux, its about adding those all important finishing touches. If Linux software was for sale like the majority of windows software, the authors would be under pressure to deliver a polished product, instead of being prepared to release any old thing and leaving it to the user to mind read their intentions / find all the new bugs. EG, why do updates come in pairs? because the authors didn't test the first update properly and it broke something. Rick Kitty5 NewMedia http://Kitty5.com POV-Ray News & Resources http://Povray.co.uk TEL : +44 (01270) 501101 - ICQ : 15776037 PGP Public Key http://pgpkeys.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x231E1CEA -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user]http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,1236319,00.asp
I agree :) im just one of those people who belive that you should really use somthing for the purpose it was created... i dont think linux at the moment and untill now was really meant for multimedia... :) but thats just my feelings.. P - Original Message - From: "gabriel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 4:06 PM Subject: Re: [gentoo-user]http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,1236319,00.asp | On Wed, 2003-09-03 at 09:39, Patrick wrote: | > its the same as me saying my cellphones broken if i dont know how to | > make | > calls on it. | | | you're missing one simple point: cellphones are simple. a two-yearold | can figure them out. push buttons, talk. you're done. can you | remember your first time trying to install/use mysql? "how do you start | this thing?" "what do you mean i haven't installed the database? what | did i just do then?"... | | my first serious linux experience was redhat. i installed kde, but | wanted a server... i just wanted the comfortable gui-feeling... command | lines were scary. | | nowadays i read that article and sorta laugh at the trouble the guy was | having... but here's the kicker: he wasn't doing anything terribly | insane. he wanted a computer to watch tv on and record his shows. in | windows, this is a 20min process of "double-click, next, next, ok, | finish". in linux, its 2days or (in my case (thank you ati AIW)) | never. the guy's right on two very good points: | | 1. the current interface is scary for people who want it to "just | work"(TM). a reasonable gui skinning of the command line stuff would do | great things for a distro. imagine, just double click "upgrade system" | on your desktop, have it popup a window with all the command line stuff | scrolling by and nice pretty watermark... then when it's all done, a | nice gui "done". my grandmother would actually be ok with using linux | then. linux needs "finishers". people who write the code that installs | the mysql db and auto-configures the config files in /etc/ for people | who don't know how and don't want to know. | | 2. sadly, linux also needs corporate support. not the "we back linux" | mantra recited by ibm, but actual driver support from hardware | manufacturers so that products like video cards, sound cards and various | usb webcams etc. "just work" out of the box, rather than requiring a | long, painful search for howtos etc. | | i love linux. gentoo especially, but it's only good for people like | me... not this guy. so if we want people like him (and my grandmother) | to use it, then we have to work on #1 and push companies to do #2. | | | -- | a moment of joy in a lifetime of suffering... take it, while you can | - abassador londo molari, babylon 5 | | | -- | [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list | | | -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user]http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,1236319,00.asp
On Wed, 2003-09-03 at 07:59, Mark Fisher wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > On Wednesday 03 September 2003 11:09 am, Patrick wrote: > > the thing still is that he really has to know what hes doing > > and linux will hopefully never be a moron's operating system > > I totally agree. I guess this all comes down to 2 philosophies on the > competing ends of the spectrum. I agree, but I don't think they compete at all. Basically its about IQ and/or aptitude. After that, its about what fits the need. Lack of IQ can preclude using gentoo, and that's WONDERFUL!!! The close knit community is a wonderful trick to lure in super-geeks, even if it's their first linux experience. Then, the same thing that created the close knit community (the do-it-yourself-ishness) fosters learning. What's best about the fact that we tend to be smart? Less hand-holding!!! Yippee -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user]http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,1236319,00.asp
On Wed, 2003-09-03 at 09:39, Patrick wrote: > its the same as me saying my cellphones broken if i dont know how to > make > calls on it. you're missing one simple point: cellphones are simple. a two-yearold can figure them out. push buttons, talk. you're done. can you remember your first time trying to install/use mysql? "how do you start this thing?" "what do you mean i haven't installed the database? what did i just do then?"... my first serious linux experience was redhat. i installed kde, but wanted a server... i just wanted the comfortable gui-feeling... command lines were scary. nowadays i read that article and sorta laugh at the trouble the guy was having... but here's the kicker: he wasn't doing anything terribly insane. he wanted a computer to watch tv on and record his shows. in windows, this is a 20min process of "double-click, next, next, ok, finish". in linux, its 2days or (in my case (thank you ati AIW)) never. the guy's right on two very good points: 1. the current interface is scary for people who want it to "just work"(TM). a reasonable gui skinning of the command line stuff would do great things for a distro. imagine, just double click "upgrade system" on your desktop, have it popup a window with all the command line stuff scrolling by and nice pretty watermark... then when it's all done, a nice gui "done". my grandmother would actually be ok with using linux then. linux needs "finishers". people who write the code that installs the mysql db and auto-configures the config files in /etc/ for people who don't know how and don't want to know. 2. sadly, linux also needs corporate support. not the "we back linux" mantra recited by ibm, but actual driver support from hardware manufacturers so that products like video cards, sound cards and various usb webcams etc. "just work" out of the box, rather than requiring a long, painful search for howtos etc. i love linux. gentoo especially, but it's only good for people like me... not this guy. so if we want people like him (and my grandmother) to use it, then we have to work on #1 and push companies to do #2. -- a moment of joy in a lifetime of suffering... take it, while you can - abassador londo molari, babylon 5 -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,1236319,00.asp
Im not saying point and click is a bad thing... im just saying that there are also non point and click distros that are just as easy to use ... once they are running that is.. :) and the person in the article is whine'ing about yum and rpm... of all things rpm :) dedrat prat managment :P yes fine... redhat did pave the way for linux in the begining but... there are starting to be major differences between server distro's and workstation distros ... even a desktop distro creator has made that clear ( mandrake ) with their firewall/server/desktop releases as has suse... ( personal / etc.. ) i still have very many problems with the person who wrote the article. im sure that if he knew what he was doing it wouldnt have hinder'ed him at all. its the same as me saying my cellphones broken if i dont know how to make calls on it. P - Original Message - From: "Gwendolyn van der Linden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 1:49 PM Subject: RE: [gentoo-user] http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,1236319,00.asp | > the thing still is that he really has to know what hes doing | > and linux will hopefully never be a moron's operating system | | Which 'Linux' do you mean? I'm perfectly comfortable with the | existence of click-and-go versions of Linux, as long as I still can | configure my stuff by hand in /etc. Given the large range of | audiences that Linux even today spans, it should be possible to add a | version that non-programmers can use effortlessly, without corrupting | the modular and scalable Linux spirit. | | > one of the things i love about daemons is the fact they arent | > just shipped finished products | > and that people can add and remove features while the product | > is being worked on and everything is a work in progress... | | The problem is that some applications are not providing a more or less | stand-alone function, but have to rely on various other | applications/components that are already complex by themselves. | Applications in the daemon class are typically well-defined and | self-contained. Applications in the interactive multi-media class | typically are not. | | I agree with the author of the article that a package is not truly | installed unless it is up and running. Not all Gentoo packages meet | that requirement. Some are straightforward to configure, and some are | just damn hard to get going. As an example, it is somewhat silly that | you are advised to _disable_ pcmcia support in the kernel when you | want to install pcmcia-cs. I can understand why a lay person finds | that confusing. | | Coming back to Gentoo, perhaps it is possible to create more | high-level virtual packages (such as gnome) that bundle together a set | of packages (such as everything needed to run MythTV), and include a | post-install script that configures everything as required. That way | the smart linux-savvy people can help out the 'morons'. Gentoo is | about capturing the knowledge on how to configure and install packages | in ebuilds, so why not take that one step further. | | Gwendolyn. | | | -- | [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list | | | -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,1236319,00.asp
Im just a ""i hate rpm"" kinda guy... and well... point and click distros arent that much easier to get to do what you want... the main thing harder about gentoo is the install... package managment a large part of what makes things easier/harder is much nicer on gentoo... with a little bit of struggling and screwing round u can get it to do just about anything... makes you understand what your doing and why. P - Original Message - From: "Mark Fisher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 2:59 PM Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,1236319,00.asp -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday 03 September 2003 11:09 am, Patrick wrote: > the thing still is that he really has to know what hes doing > and linux will hopefully never be a moron's operating system I totally agree. I guess this all comes down to 2 philosophies on the competing ends of the spectrum. On the one side you have Mr Gentoo/BSD/Debian where you have intelligent yet configurable installation system's but ultimately you have control of your own computer. The software is written by yourself and your peers in the open source community and so 'holes' are picked up and fixes available very quickly. On the other side, you have Mr Windows who does everything for you, as a result you are unsure of exactly how it is all put together and so troubleshooting is often unintuative and results in a fresh installation as frankly it would be quicker. You are ultimately trusting your systems to their programmers. When there are security problems you must wait for them to agree and to make the fix avalable. Then there are the distro's blurring the distinction like Mr RedHat and Mr Mandrake who, while are strictly Linux, have a large amount of automation like Mr Windows. For someone like me, who likes to remain in control of their system, by definition that system has to be largely un-automated. For the next person [like the article writer] who are less concerned about the inner workings, automation scripts are ideal - as long as they work (!)[have you ever tried to fix a Mandrake box whose script's have failed?]. It's just horses for courses isnt it? I hope Linux does continue for many years to come, and that it leads to Skynet's, I mean Redmond's, ultimate demise. But not every computer user is a computer professional, so the Windows approach - however undesirable - will always be the popular one [by numbers]. Im glad that Linus has started working on developing Linux for the desktop as im sure distro's like Mandrake, Suse and RedHat will gain alot from it. Maybe then Linux, in the form of user-friendly distro's, will become more approachable to the man in the street. Like Lindow's - while I dont 'like' it as it is now, I acknowledge that in 5 years time I will probably look back on it being a breakthrough project and something which shaped modern day computing. As for us? Well, in that same hope - we'll all still have Gentoo and other bleeding edge distro's... so we will continue to point and laugh, I guess :P > a really good example is postfix .. the further it goes the more > it progresses to become the best MTA available ( no flames plz :) ) For the religious statement or the top posting ;o) - -- Mark -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/VeWvzrmqzOOQUj8RAqThAJwMvhXmyQ1F1mNLQy6aiMI1ym5bKwCfazPx 9pNJ74h2LBZ8JRf1edKCBh8= =geHG -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,1236319,00.asp
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday 03 September 2003 11:09 am, Patrick wrote: > the thing still is that he really has to know what hes doing > and linux will hopefully never be a moron's operating system I totally agree. I guess this all comes down to 2 philosophies on the competing ends of the spectrum. On the one side you have Mr Gentoo/BSD/Debian where you have intelligent yet configurable installation system's but ultimately you have control of your own computer. The software is written by yourself and your peers in the open source community and so 'holes' are picked up and fixes available very quickly. On the other side, you have Mr Windows who does everything for you, as a result you are unsure of exactly how it is all put together and so troubleshooting is often unintuative and results in a fresh installation as frankly it would be quicker. You are ultimately trusting your systems to their programmers. When there are security problems you must wait for them to agree and to make the fix avalable. Then there are the distro's blurring the distinction like Mr RedHat and Mr Mandrake who, while are strictly Linux, have a large amount of automation like Mr Windows. For someone like me, who likes to remain in control of their system, by definition that system has to be largely un-automated. For the next person [like the article writer] who are less concerned about the inner workings, automation scripts are ideal - as long as they work (!)[have you ever tried to fix a Mandrake box whose script's have failed?]. It's just horses for courses isnt it? I hope Linux does continue for many years to come, and that it leads to Skynet's, I mean Redmond's, ultimate demise. But not every computer user is a computer professional, so the Windows approach - however undesirable - will always be the popular one [by numbers]. Im glad that Linus has started working on developing Linux for the desktop as im sure distro's like Mandrake, Suse and RedHat will gain alot from it. Maybe then Linux, in the form of user-friendly distro's, will become more approachable to the man in the street. Like Lindow's - while I dont 'like' it as it is now, I acknowledge that in 5 years time I will probably look back on it being a breakthrough project and something which shaped modern day computing. As for us? Well, in that same hope - we'll all still have Gentoo and other bleeding edge distro's... so we will continue to point and laugh, I guess :P > a really good example is postfix .. the further it goes the more > it progresses to become the best MTA available ( no flames plz :) ) For the religious statement or the top posting ;o) - -- Mark -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/VeWvzrmqzOOQUj8RAqThAJwMvhXmyQ1F1mNLQy6aiMI1ym5bKwCfazPx 9pNJ74h2LBZ8JRf1edKCBh8= =geHG -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
RE: [gentoo-user] http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,1236319,00.asp
> the thing still is that he really has to know what hes doing > and linux will hopefully never be a moron's operating system Which 'Linux' do you mean? I'm perfectly comfortable with the existence of click-and-go versions of Linux, as long as I still can configure my stuff by hand in /etc. Given the large range of audiences that Linux even today spans, it should be possible to add a version that non-programmers can use effortlessly, without corrupting the modular and scalable Linux spirit. > one of the things i love about daemons is the fact they arent > just shipped finished products > and that people can add and remove features while the product > is being worked on and everything is a work in progress... The problem is that some applications are not providing a more or less stand-alone function, but have to rely on various other applications/components that are already complex by themselves. Applications in the daemon class are typically well-defined and self-contained. Applications in the interactive multi-media class typically are not. I agree with the author of the article that a package is not truly installed unless it is up and running. Not all Gentoo packages meet that requirement. Some are straightforward to configure, and some are just damn hard to get going. As an example, it is somewhat silly that you are advised to _disable_ pcmcia support in the kernel when you want to install pcmcia-cs. I can understand why a lay person finds that confusing. Coming back to Gentoo, perhaps it is possible to create more high-level virtual packages (such as gnome) that bundle together a set of packages (such as everything needed to run MythTV), and include a post-install script that configures everything as required. That way the smart linux-savvy people can help out the 'morons'. Gentoo is about capturing the knowledge on how to configure and install packages in ebuilds, so why not take that one step further. Gwendolyn. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,1236319,00.asp
the thing still is that he really has to know what hes doing and linux will hopefully never be a moron's operating system one of the things i love about daemons is the fact they arent just shipped finished products and that people can add and remove features while the product is being worked on and everything is a work in progress... a really good example is postfix .. the further it goes the more it progresses to become the best MTA available ( no flames plz :) ) P - Original Message - From: "Rick [Kitty5]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 12:54 PM Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,1236319,00.asp | Patrick wrote: | > http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,1236319,00.asp | > | > what a chop. | > | > I have to say that i totally dont agree with this article and i sooo | > think gentoo | > overcomes alot of the problems in this article. | > | > Wot u guys think. | | I think he hits the nail on the head so to speak. Sure the installer is | great, but sometimes what you actually installed isnt | | Rick | | Kitty5 NewMedia http://Kitty5.com | POV-Ray News & Resources http://Povray.co.uk | TEL : +44 (01270) 501101 - ICQ : 15776037 | | PGP Public Key | http://pgpkeys.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x231E1CEA | | | -- | [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list | | | -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,1236319,00.asp
Patrick wrote: > http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,1236319,00.asp > > what a chop. > > I have to say that i totally dont agree with this article and i sooo > think gentoo > overcomes alot of the problems in this article. > > Wot u guys think. I think he hits the nail on the head so to speak. Sure the installer is great, but sometimes what you actually installed isnt Rick Kitty5 NewMedia http://Kitty5.com POV-Ray News & Resources http://Povray.co.uk TEL : +44 (01270) 501101 - ICQ : 15776037 PGP Public Key http://pgpkeys.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x231E1CEA -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
[gentoo-user] http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,1236319,00.asp
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,1236319,00.asp what a chop. I have to say that i totally dont agree with this article and i sooo think gentoo overcomes alot of the problems in this article. Wot u guys think. P Patrick XSInet -- I live in my own little world. But it's OK. They know me here. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
