Re: [GNC] Sub-Accounting (Was: Problem with missing balance in a parent account **FINAL POST**)
On 10/13/2022 1:46 PM, Adrien Monteleone wrote: I agree. Some years ago, there were a few threads here that delved into various means of implementing an envelope method in GnuCash and my personal take-away was, while it can be done, the only sane method is lots of work. (you mention a not so sane method, or rather, one that could quickly drive one insane trying to make sense of an error 6-12 months later.) Folks asking for "envelope budgeting" in gnucash "general ledger" misunderstand what an accounting system is (what that part of it is) "Envelope budgeting" is a PHYSICAL system where physical currency is placed in "envelopes" dedicated to a category of spending. With a discipline that money used for any expense only comes out of the envelope dedicated to the category of expense. To go ahead with a transaction even when the right envelope is empty requires consciously moving money from some other envelope. If unwilling to transfer, must abort the transaction, because the money simply isn't there. Accounting (general ledger) is RECORDING what you have done. It imposes no controls. It is "after the fact". So partitioning your checking account into ":envelopes" in no way prevents you from writing a check just because that partition does not have enough remaining funds. Understand? partitioning into virtual envelopes does NOT at the moment of check writing impose "envelope budgeting" controls. All it can do is tell you LATER if you have stuck to your budget. Oh wait! That's what the budget features of gnucash can do for you. You are complaining that the budget feature doesn't enforce sticking to the budget in the way physical "envelope budgeting" did? But neither will partitioning your account into virtual envelopes. It just tells you afterward that you didn't follow the budget. Michael D Novack PS -- I say "writing a check" but use of a debit/eft card is the same. PPS -- Are people asking for something that could provide the services of "envelope budgeting"? This would best be an app running on a tablet. etc. that you would have with you. Before completing any transaction, you would enter the proposed transaction and it would tell you "go ahead" (and do that transaction) or "no, you don't have sufficient funds to spend in that category << and "do you want to transfer funds? >> ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Sub-Accounting (Was: Problem with missing balance in a parent account **FINAL POST**)
I agree. Some years ago, there were a few threads here that delved into various means of implementing an envelope method in GnuCash and my personal take-away was, while it can be done, the only sane method is lots of work. (you mention a not so sane method, or rather, one that could quickly drive one insane trying to make sense of an error 6-12 months later.) Ideally, I strive to mimic real world transactions in my books. So if I have a deposit I also want to budget the future use of, I don't try to do that all in one transaction. First, I'd record the real world transaction, the deposit, as a single event between whatever other account and Checking/Savings. Then in a separate transaction I would record 'budgeting' transactions dividing that deposit amongst various 'envelope' accounts. However, I'd *not* transfer the money out of the real checking/savings account, but create an entirely 'outside layer' of transactions for budgeting purposes. When I spend funds, I'd record the real-world expense between Checking/Savings & the related Expense account(s). And then also record the shifting of budgeted funds between my envelope accounts separately. This *could* be done with simply adding splits each time, but it is safer to use separate transactions. That way, no changes to the envelope related accounts would affect my real-world accounts. This is of course, lots of work. This type of budgeting should probably be programmed into the budget module itself. (or a separate module) One might just as well use an outside budgeting app or a spreadsheet. The advantage to using GnuCash for this, is for the convenience of using only one app, and having some built-in reporting capability. Some might think that not so convenient after trying it. - I'm certainly not stumping for any other software project, but I've investigated some and MoneyWell for Mac seems to be designed from the ground up for the envelope method. (they call 'envelopes' 'buckets' instead) It was also designed for non-physical transaction tracking to boot. I may still employ this app for day-to-day transactions, and simply export that data to GnuCash for my complete books. Unfortunately, it is not open source or available for other systems, but it does illustrate the idea nicely of how the restricted funds method can work well. Regards, Adrien On 10/12/22 8:04 AM, John Layman wrote: The moment you split a large deposit between multiple sub-accounts you have fragmented the correspondence between the bank statement and your books. And, as you note, transferring funds between the sub-accounts introduces transactions that have nothing whatsoever to do with the account as the bank views it. These differences in semantics necessitate some juggling in order to reconcile the account. You may be able to handle this scheme given a low volume of deposits and withdrawals to a savings account, but someone trying the same concept for implementing an envelope budgeting scheme would have a real mess on their hands. ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Sub-Accounting (Was: Problem with missing balance in a parent account **FINAL POST**)
The moment you split a large deposit between multiple sub-accounts you have fragmented the correspondence between the bank statement and your books. And, as you note, transferring funds between the sub-accounts introduces transactions that have nothing whatsoever to do with the account as the bank views it. These differences in semantics necessitate some juggling in order to reconcile the account. You may be able to handle this scheme given a low volume of deposits and withdrawals to a savings account, but someone trying the same concept for implementing an envelope budgeting scheme would have a real mess on their hands. From: Robin Chattopadhyay Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2022 7:04 PM To: john.lay...@laymanandlayman.com Cc: Gnucash Users Subject: Re: [GNC] Sub-Accounting (Was: Problem with missing balance in a parent account **FINAL POST**) I strongly -- but respectfully -- disagree. Gnucash works *brilliantly* for a sub-accounting use case with a single bank account at a financial institution comprised of multiple sub-accounts. For example, until my children were old enough/mature enough to have their own savings accounts at our bank, I held all of their individual savings, plus my own in a single account at the bank to take advantage of higher interest rates for higher balances. Like this: Savings Account 1234 (Placeholder because I didn't want transactions accidentally ending up here. Everything needs to be in a sub-account for my own piece of mind) --> Main Savings --> Child A Savings --> Child B Savings --> Child C Savings --> Vacation --> Capital Improvement --> etc. (other special purpose accounts) I can always immediately tell, within Gnucash, what is due each child or what their available balance is. When reconciling to the bank statement, I can select the representation of the bank account (Savings Account 1234), then click Actions -> Reconcile, enter the ending balance from the statement, click Include sub-accounts, and away I go. The reconcile window allows me to select any unreconciled transaction from any of the sub-accounts and reconcile back to the statement balance. Internal transfers between sub-accounts are not on the bank statement, obviously, but can also be reconciled in the Reconcile window as they will definitionally net to 0.00. I can also allocate interest amongst the various sub-accounts with a single credit to an Interest Income account and a debit to each sub-account. The only place where this system breaks down is importing an OFX file as the transaction importer doesn't understand matching transactions to sub accounts. For me, this is a small, small price to pay for all the other advantages I cited above. I also employ this system for credit cards where certain transactions are subject to a promotional interest rate, or I want to keep vacation transactions separate. A single payment to the credit card issuer can be allocated to each sub-account. Balances can be compared to the promotional balances on the statement. Robin On Tue, Oct 11, 2022 at 9:11 AM John Layman mailto:john.lay...@laymanandlayman.com> > wrote: Reconcile appears in the menu, but it will not open a reconciliation of the subordinates, and (presumably) the placeholder account itself is empty. You can expand the subordinates, but will not be able to reconcile the expansion. What you are attempting to do is understandable, but difficult from a data modelling standpoint. The constituent parts of a data structure have semantics. In your particular case: that of a checking account. But you are attempting to superimpose a breakdown of its contents that represent different semantics. These semantics clash somewhat with the semantics of 'checking account' and the related function of reconciliation required with a bank statement. So, while what you are attempting to accomplish is understandable, the collision of semantics is difficult to harmonize. There was recent mention of envelope budgeting here. Trying to implement an envelope budgeting scheme by using sub-accounts to a single checking account might be doable, but it would be a kluge insofar as it would complicate reconciliation and wouldn't represent a generally suitable envelope budget feature. An envelope budgeting feature would necessarily span multiple financial accounts, potentially across multiple institutions, and require an entirely different view to be superimposed on the simple tree structure accounts in GnuCash represent. The tree structure is GnuCash is tremendously flexible, but doesn't provide for multiple views. -Original Message- From: gnucash-user mailto:ieee@gnucash.org> > On Behalf Of Robin Chattopadhyay Sent: Monday, October 10, 2022 5:05 PM To: Gnucash Users mailto:gnucash-user@gnucash.org> > Subject: Re: [GNC] Problem with miss
Re: [GNC] Sub-Accounting (Was: Problem with missing balance in a parent account **FINAL POST**)
Similarly, my Living Revocable Trust is a single savings account at the credit Union. In GnC it is a placeholder account with the following sub-accounts: Sinking Fund Emergency Fund General Fund Likewise, the non-trust account is a checking account that has two sub-accounts: HamFlags Personal Keeping the "business" out of my personal activity just makes it easier to track. I reconcile the two top accounts (separately) then check the "Include sub-accounts" so it is easy to check off all the items shown on the bank site. Now, I am comfortable right clicking on the placeholder account and picking reconcile. But I understand that some may want the button active in this situation. --Steve On 10/11/22 16:04, Robin Chattopadhyay wrote: I strongly -- but respectfully -- disagree. Gnucash works *brilliantly* for a sub-accounting use case with a single bank account at a financial institution comprised of multiple sub-accounts. For example, until my children were old enough/mature enough to have their own savings accounts at our bank, I held all of their individual savings, plus my own in a single account at the bank to take advantage of higher interest rates for higher balances. Like this: Savings Account 1234 (Placeholder because I didn't want transactions accidentally ending up here. Everything needs to be in a sub-account for my own piece of mind) --> Main Savings --> Child A Savings --> Child B Savings --> Child C Savings --> Vacation --> Capital Improvement --> etc. (other special purpose accounts) I can always immediately tell, within Gnucash, what is due each child or what their available balance is. When reconciling to the bank statement, I can select the representation of the bank account (Savings Account 1234), then click Actions -> Reconcile, enter the ending balance from the statement, click Include sub-accounts, and away I go. The reconcile window allows me to select any unreconciled transaction from any of the sub-accounts and reconcile back to the statement balance. Internal transfers between sub-accounts are not on the bank statement, obviously, but can also be reconciled in the Reconcile window as they will definitionally net to 0.00. I can also allocate interest amongst the various sub-accounts with a single credit to an Interest Income account and a debit to each sub-account. The only place where this system breaks down is importing an OFX file as the transaction importer doesn't understand matching transactions to sub accounts. For me, this is a small, small price to pay for all the other advantages I cited above. I also employ this system for credit cards where certain transactions are subject to a promotional interest rate, or I want to keep vacation transactions separate. A single payment to the credit card issuer can be allocated to each sub-account. Balances can be compared to the promotional balances on the statement. Robin On Tue, Oct 11, 2022 at 9:11 AM John Layman wrote: Reconcile appears in the menu, but it will not open a reconciliation of the subordinates, and (presumably) the placeholder account itself is empty. You can expand the subordinates, but will not be able to reconcile the expansion. What you are attempting to do is understandable, but difficult from a data modelling standpoint. The constituent parts of a data structure have semantics. In your particular case: that of a checking account. But you are attempting to superimpose a breakdown of its contents that represent different semantics. These semantics clash somewhat with the semantics of 'checking account' and the related function of reconciliation required with a bank statement. So, while what you are attempting to accomplish is understandable, the collision of semantics is difficult to harmonize. There was recent mention of envelope budgeting here. Trying to implement an envelope budgeting scheme by using sub-accounts to a single checking account might be doable, but it would be a kluge insofar as it would complicate reconciliation and wouldn't represent a generally suitable envelope budget feature. An envelope budgeting feature would necessarily span multiple financial accounts, potentially across multiple institutions, and require an entirely different view to be superimposed on the simple tree structure accounts in GnuCash represent. The tree structure is GnuCash is tremendously flexible, but doesn't provide for multiple views. -Original Message- From: gnucash-user On Behalf Of Robin Chattopadhyay Sent: Monday, October 10, 2022 5:05 PM To: Gnucash Users Subject: Re: [GNC] Problem with missing balance in a parent account **FINAL POST** At the risk of sounding defensive (I assure you I'm not, just confused) what is wrong with what I suggested (using the right-click/context menu on the placeholder account)? In the screen shot attached, you can see that the account I've selected is marked as placeholder and I can select the Reconcile option from
Re: [GNC] Sub-Accounting (Was: Problem with missing balance in a parent account **FINAL POST**)
I strongly -- but respectfully -- disagree. Gnucash works *brilliantly* for a sub-accounting use case with a single bank account at a financial institution comprised of multiple sub-accounts. For example, until my children were old enough/mature enough to have their own savings accounts at our bank, I held all of their individual savings, plus my own in a single account at the bank to take advantage of higher interest rates for higher balances. Like this: Savings Account 1234 (Placeholder because I didn't want transactions accidentally ending up here. Everything needs to be in a sub-account for my own piece of mind) --> Main Savings --> Child A Savings --> Child B Savings --> Child C Savings --> Vacation --> Capital Improvement --> etc. (other special purpose accounts) I can always immediately tell, within Gnucash, what is due each child or what their available balance is. When reconciling to the bank statement, I can select the representation of the bank account (Savings Account 1234), then click Actions -> Reconcile, enter the ending balance from the statement, click Include sub-accounts, and away I go. The reconcile window allows me to select any unreconciled transaction from any of the sub-accounts and reconcile back to the statement balance. Internal transfers between sub-accounts are not on the bank statement, obviously, but can also be reconciled in the Reconcile window as they will definitionally net to 0.00. I can also allocate interest amongst the various sub-accounts with a single credit to an Interest Income account and a debit to each sub-account. The only place where this system breaks down is importing an OFX file as the transaction importer doesn't understand matching transactions to sub accounts. For me, this is a small, small price to pay for all the other advantages I cited above. I also employ this system for credit cards where certain transactions are subject to a promotional interest rate, or I want to keep vacation transactions separate. A single payment to the credit card issuer can be allocated to each sub-account. Balances can be compared to the promotional balances on the statement. Robin On Tue, Oct 11, 2022 at 9:11 AM John Layman wrote: > Reconcile appears in the menu, but it will not open a reconciliation of > the subordinates, and (presumably) the placeholder account itself is > empty. You can expand the subordinates, but will not be able to reconcile > the expansion. > > What you are attempting to do is understandable, but difficult from a data > modelling standpoint. The constituent parts of a data structure have > semantics. In your particular case: that of a checking account. But you > are attempting to superimpose a breakdown of its contents that represent > different semantics. These semantics clash somewhat with the semantics of > 'checking account' and the related function of reconciliation required with > a bank statement. So, while what you are attempting to accomplish is > understandable, the collision of semantics is difficult to harmonize. > > There was recent mention of envelope budgeting here. Trying to implement > an envelope budgeting scheme by using sub-accounts to a single checking > account might be doable, but it would be a kluge insofar as it would > complicate reconciliation and wouldn't represent a generally suitable > envelope budget feature. An envelope budgeting feature would necessarily > span multiple financial accounts, potentially across multiple institutions, > and require an entirely different view to be superimposed on the simple > tree structure accounts in GnuCash represent. The tree structure is > GnuCash is tremendously flexible, but doesn't provide for multiple views. > > -Original Message- > From: gnucash-user > On Behalf Of Robin Chattopadhyay > Sent: Monday, October 10, 2022 5:05 PM > To: Gnucash Users > Subject: Re: [GNC] Problem with missing balance in a parent account > **FINAL POST** > > At the risk of sounding defensive (I assure you I'm not, just confused) > what is wrong with what I suggested (using the right-click/context menu on > the placeholder account)? In the screen shot attached, you can see that the > account I've selected is marked as placeholder and I can select the > Reconcile option from that account. > > I'm using 4.12 on Ubuntu 22.04. > > Robin > > On Mon, Oct 10, 2022 at 8:21 AM john wrote: > > > Please remember to copy the list on all replies. > > > > If you want the Reconcile button (and, contrary to what Robin > > Chatterjay wrote, Actions>Reconcile) to be active for your account, > > make it not a placeholder. > > > > Regards, > > John Ralls > > > > > > > On Oct 10, 2022, at 7:56 AM, Jay Ridgley > > wrote: > > > > > > Good morning, > > > > > > After some additional research I believe that the ONLY problem is > > > the > > grayed out reconcile button. > > > > > > I was confused about the balance showing in the Parent Account, > > Placeholder. It shows in the Reconcile Popup wind
