Re: [hlds] Let's be honest

[Ant]

Valve time is measured like dog years, it's a mathematical obstacle that is
best left to the genius of the heap. 

 

Cheers.

Ant

___

"Retarded is the new Genius"

 

From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
[mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of RSS List User
Sent: Friday, 9 December 2011 11:55 AM
To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
Subject: Re: [hlds] Let's be honest

 

I've seen this email multiple times, but I have yet to see any policing.
Please, what actions have you taken "right now"? As I still see these
servers.

On 12/8/2011 7:39 PM, Fletcher Dunn wrote: 

Date for expected compliance: right now.

 

From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
[mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Mart-Jan Reeuwijk
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2011 4:00 PM
To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
Subject: Re: [hlds] Let's be honest

 

Cant wait till that its enacted and in full effect. Set a date per to
comply. 

Already all set up. (had to change nothing)


  _  


From: Damien Delay  

To:   "hlds@list.valvesoftware.com"
  
Sent: Friday, 9 December 2011, 0:04
Subject: Re: [hlds] Let's be honest


So does that mean valve are finally going to deal with saigns.de and night
team? FINALY!

On 8 Dec 2011, at 22:07, hlds-requ...@list.valvesoftware.com wrote:

> able

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[hlds] Let's be honest (Fletcher Dunn) and Killing Floor

[G. Hutchinson]

Brilliant, and a long time coming. My quickplay servers are vanilla 
although I have implemented the
24+2 players for slots, and they never hold more than 24 players as 
required. It sucks seeing the system being cheated. As a community we 
never before had to depend on quickplay, and without it we would do 
fine, although it is nice to have. We have had many newcomers to our 
community because of this feature. However I too have noticed a 
down-swing in traffic. I chalk it up to a few of the new games 
released, and burn out.


While Valve is at it, please consider implementing a BUILT IN basic 
server, in game admin module that is menu driven. Ban (24hr, 72, 
perm), kick, mute/gag/silence, switch player team... Easy to do, no overhead.


And Mr John Gibson Keep the KF update post and news coming. I credit 
you with starting the trend of game producing companies being a bit 
more forthcoming with interaction on this mailing list with us server 
admins (ahem Valve).


Also thank you Fletch... hehehe Chevy Chase... fun times...


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Re: [hlds] Let's be honest

[Crazed Gunman]

As he stated, and I quote:
"Perhaps some server operators would actually prefer to not run these 
mods, but feel that it is necessary to compete and maintain their 
community.  For this reason, Valve has made the decision not to take any 
action against any server operators at this time.We will be directly 
contacting some of the "institutional offenders" who are using these 
mods on multiple servers."


On 12/8/2011 7:55 PM, RSS List User wrote:
I've seen this email multiple times, but I have yet to see any 
policing. Please, what actions have you taken "right now"? As I still 
see these servers.


On 12/8/2011 7:39 PM, Fletcher Dunn wrote:


Date for expected compliance: right now.

*From:*hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com 
[mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] *On Behalf Of *Mart-Jan 
Reeuwijk

*Sent:* Thursday, December 08, 2011 4:00 PM
*To:* Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
*Subject:* Re: [hlds] Let's be honest

Cant wait till that its enacted and in full effect. Set a date per to 
comply.


Already all set up. (had to change nothing)



*From:*Damien Delay 
*To:* "hlds@list.valvesoftware.com" 
*Sent:* Friday, 9 December 2011, 0:04
*Subject:* Re: [hlds] Let's be honest


So does that mean valve are finally going to deal with saigns.de
and night team? FINALY!

On 8 Dec 2011, at 22:07, hlds-requ...@list.valvesoftware.com
 wrote:

> able

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--
-- Ron / CrazeD

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Re: [hlds] Let's be honest

[RSS List User]

I've seen this email multiple times, but I have yet to see any policing. 
Please, what actions have you taken "right now"? As I still see these 
servers.


On 12/8/2011 7:39 PM, Fletcher Dunn wrote:


Date for expected compliance: right now.

*From:*hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com 
[mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] *On Behalf Of *Mart-Jan 
Reeuwijk

*Sent:* Thursday, December 08, 2011 4:00 PM
*To:* Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
*Subject:* Re: [hlds] Let's be honest

Cant wait till that its enacted and in full effect. Set a date per to 
comply.


Already all set up. (had to change nothing)



*From:*Damien Delay 
*To:* "hlds@list.valvesoftware.com" 
*Sent:* Friday, 9 December 2011, 0:04
*Subject:* Re: [hlds] Let's be honest


So does that mean valve are finally going to deal with saigns.de
and night team? FINALY!

On 8 Dec 2011, at 22:07, hlds-requ...@list.valvesoftware.com
 wrote:

> able

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Re: [hlds] Let's be honest

[1nsane]

Is there any particular reason why bots subtract from the maximum player
count instead of leaving it alone?

It's rather detrimental...

On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 5:13 PM, Fletcher Dunn
wrote:

> Right now, we’re focused on the sorts of things I listed in that email.
> If we broaden the scope, we’ll let you know.
>
> ** **
>
> The fact that we didn’t take any action right now, even though the
> tampering is so obvious, should hopefully make it clear that we are really
> concerned about alienating somebody who is actually adding value to our
> community (even if they are guilty of the tampering), as opposed to those
> who are just siphoning value away from it.
>
> ** **
>
> - Fletch
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com [mailto:
> hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] *On Behalf Of *Clay Hansen
> *Sent:* Thursday, December 08, 2011 2:07 PM
> *To:* Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
> *Subject:* Re: [hlds] Let's be honest
>
> ** **
>
> I run a mod on a couple of my CS:S servers that modify the game name from
> "Counter-Strike: Source" to our community name. Would that be something you
> guys are cracking down on now? If so I'll remove it right away.
>
> ** **
>
> On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 4:59 PM, zach isaac  wrote:
>
> One can only hope they also intend to take care of the "Pay to win"
> servers as well. Specifically nightteam. I cant use the "play now" without
> connecting to one of their servers. One can only imagine the horror that a
> first timer experiances when connecting to them.
>
> ** **
>
> On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 3:43 PM, msleeper 
> wrote:
>
> slow clap
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 4:00 PM, Fletcher Dunn
>  wrote:
> > We all know that some server operators run mods specifically designed to
> > falsify information sent to the Valve backend and to their players.
> These
> > mods inaccurately report the player count and whether players are human
> or
> > not.  They conceal that significant modifications to gameplay have been
> > made.  This is detrimental to players’ experience.
> >
> >
> >
> > Perhaps some server operators would actually prefer to not run these
> mods,
> > but feel that it is necessary to compete and maintain their community.
> For
> > this reason, Valve has made the decision not to take any action against
> any
> > server operators at this time.
> >
> >
> >
> > We will be directly contacting some of the “institutional offenders” who
> are
> > using these mods on multiple servers.  However, whether we contact you
> > directly or not, this email serves as warning to all server operators
> that
> > we do have the ability to detect this class of behavior, and, going
> forward,
> > we are going to be more aggressive at policing it.  If we determine that
> you
> > are modifying the network stream or otherwise circumventing basic
> security
> > measures, we will take the actions needed to maintain a positive
> environment
> > for our players.
> >
> >
> >
> > To be perfectly clear, here are some examples of the modifications and
> > behaviours which we consider especially harmful to our community:
> >
> > · Forging or modifying network communications used to describe
> > server properties to the backend or directly to clients.
> >
> > · Concealing the fact that bots are bots, and making them appear
> as
> > human players.  (Running bots is OK, as long as no modifications are made
> > that make it difficult for players to identify which players are bots and
> > which are humans.)
> >
> > · Interfering with the mechanisms that advertise modifications to
> > gameplay rules in the server browser.  (For example, nocrits, gravity,
> > respawn times, etc.)  Experimenting with gameplay modifications is
> > encouraged, but any mechanisms in the engine designed to alert players to
> > those modifications must be allowed to function.
> >
> > · Listing the same game server multiple times in the master
> server.
> >
> >
> >
> > Thank you,
> >
> > Fletcher Dunn
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> > ___
> > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> > please visit:
> > https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
> >
>
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> ** **
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Re: [hlds] Let's be honest

[Crazed Gunman]

When I thought Valve would take action I thought they'd police it 
sooner, but pardon my French, Fletch, but I am god damn thrilled about 
this. From the position of both a server administrator and a player, thanks.


On 12/8/2011 6:39 PM, Fletcher Dunn wrote:


Date for expected compliance: right now.

*From:*hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com 
[mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] *On Behalf Of *Mart-Jan 
Reeuwijk

*Sent:* Thursday, December 08, 2011 4:00 PM
*To:* Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
*Subject:* Re: [hlds] Let's be honest

Cant wait till that its enacted and in full effect. Set a date per to 
comply.


Already all set up. (had to change nothing)



*From:*Damien Delay 
*To:* "hlds@list.valvesoftware.com" 
*Sent:* Friday, 9 December 2011, 0:04
*Subject:* Re: [hlds] Let's be honest


So does that mean valve are finally going to deal with saigns.de
and night team? FINALY!

On 8 Dec 2011, at 22:07, hlds-requ...@list.valvesoftware.com
 wrote:

> able

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Re: [hlds] Let's be honest

[Fletcher Dunn]

Date for expected compliance: right now.

From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com 
[mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Mart-Jan Reeuwijk
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2011 4:00 PM
To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
Subject: Re: [hlds] Let's be honest

Cant wait till that its enacted and in full effect. Set a date per to comply.

Already all set up. (had to change nothing)

From: Damien Delay 
To: "hlds@list.valvesoftware.com" 
Sent: Friday, 9 December 2011, 0:04
Subject: Re: [hlds] Let's be honest


So does that mean valve are finally going to deal with saigns.de and night 
team? FINALY!

On 8 Dec 2011, at 22:07, 
hlds-requ...@list.valvesoftware.com 
wrote:

> able

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Re: [hlds] Let's be honest

[Mart-Jan Reeuwijk]

Cant wait till that its enacted and in full effect. Set a date per to comply. 

Already all set up. (had to change nothing)



>
> From: Damien Delay 
>To: "hlds@list.valvesoftware.com"  
>Sent: Friday, 9 December 2011, 0:04
>Subject: Re: [hlds] Let's be honest
> 
>
>So does that mean valve are finally going to deal with saigns.de and night 
>team? FINALY!
>
>On 8 Dec 2011, at 22:07, hlds-requ...@list.valvesoftware.com wrote:
>
>> able
>
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Re: [hlds] Let's be honest

[munra]

Players can't make the choice if the server is giving false information.   
That's why there is a tags system.  I can't choose to play in a server with no 
bots in the server is incorrectly reporting those bots as humans, or 
artificially increasing their server score by sending incorrect information to 
the master server.  


-Original message-
From: "Bajdechi \"Nightbox\" Alexandru" alexandrualexa...@gmail.com
Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2011 17:45:02 -0500
To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list hlds@list.valvesoftware.com
Subject: Re: [hlds] Let's be honest

> I agree with Olsen, it should be about choice. However we need to say NO to
> Fake clients servers and other harmful strategies.
> 
> 2011/12/9 E. Olsen 
> 
> > I think you missed my point. It should be all about player choice, and
> > trying to deliver what they're looking for. By giving the player the OPTION
> > of being placed in a modified server, they would (IMO) be helping the TF2
> > community in the long run by showing the players the variety that's out
> > there.
> >
> > There can be no doubt that Quickplay itself can (and most likely is)
> > limiting the experience of some players who don't use (or might not even
> > know how to use) the server browser itself. There is a reason that the
> > modding communites for these types of games have flourished, and it's
> > certainly NOT because all people want is the "vanilla" experience.
> >
> > Again, I'm not even saying one is better than the other - every player
> > develops their own preferencesbut it's clear that the moddable nature
> > of  the game give it LEGS. How many people woudl ahve never exprienced the
> > "Gun Game" mod on CSS if the only way they ever joined a server was by
> > getting sent to a vanilla server via a matchmaking button?
> >
> > I fully understand the voices out there who say "give all that Quickplay
> > traffic to us - we'll homogenize our servers however we have to to get it",
> > as their probably the same folsk who throw up servers and expect them to
> > fill up on theri own with little to no active server seeding by real
> > players, etc. However, a modified server is not a negative, it's simply
> > DIFFERENT. While most of my server will never benefit from Quickplay due to
> > the over 70 custom maps that we run, it's really a shame that they don't,
> > because those players are missing out on a ton of high-quality maps (we
> > were among the very first servers to host hoodoo, frontier, and a plethora
> > of other maps that were in varous stages of development, and we still host
> > a couple of dozen in various stages of "beta") that they'll most likely
> > never get to see by hitting that button.
> >
> > Again, I'm not turning my nose up at Vanilla, or any game mode/style for
> > that matter - to each their own. I'm simply saying that by building
> > "vanilla walls" around quickplay players, without even giving them the
> > OPTION of being matched to a modified server and/or a custom map, we are
> > denying them what has made TF2 great in the first place. Personally, I'd
> > like TF2 to be around indefinitely, and I'm only interested in what I think
> > will keep both new and veteran players interested in the game in the
> > long-term.
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 5:19 PM, Rob Liu  wrote:
> >
> >> Quickplay is for vanilla servers.  If you choose to go nocrits/nospread
> >> to cater for the competitive crowd, that's your choice.
> >>
> >> Why should Valve give in and give you the quick play traffic?  I can't
> >> speak for Valve, but I assumed the whole point of quickplay is to reward
> >> servers that provide the true TF2 experience Valve intended to be.
> >>
> >> I know I sounded like a spoiled child who won't share his toys.  But if
> >> that's the direction we're heading with quickplay. We might as well put
> >> instant spawn, fast spawn and bots servers to the quick play filter too.
> >> Where do we draw the line is what I'm trying to say here.
> >>
> >> On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 10:07 AM, T Marler  wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi Fletcher,
> >>>
> >>> Does this change in stance mean we will some day see quick
> >>> matching/quickplay for nocrits/disable damage spread/disable weapon spread
> >>> servers? Competitive people like fresh blood too.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> - Original Message -
> >>> From: Fletcher Dunn 
> >>> Date: Thursday, December 8, 2011 2:00 pm
> >>> Subject: [hlds] Let's be honest
> >>> To: "Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list (
> >>> hlds_li...@list.valvesoftware.com)" ,
> >>> "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list (
> >>> hlds@list.valvesoftware.com)" 
> >>>
> >>> > We all know that some server operators run mods specifically
> >>> > designed to falsify information sent to the Valve backend and to
> >>> > their players.  These mods inaccurately report the player
> >>> > count and whether players are human or not.  They conceal
> >>> > that significant modifications to gameplay have been made.
> >>> >

Re: [hlds] Let's be honest

[Damien Delay]

So does that mean valve are finally going to deal with saigns.de and night 
team? FINALY!

On 8 Dec 2011, at 22:07, hlds-requ...@list.valvesoftware.com wrote:

> able

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Re: [hlds] Let's be honest

[Bajdechi "Nightbox" Alexandru]

I agree with Olsen, it should be about choice. However we need to say NO to
Fake clients servers and other harmful strategies.

2011/12/9 E. Olsen 

> I think you missed my point. It should be all about player choice, and
> trying to deliver what they're looking for. By giving the player the OPTION
> of being placed in a modified server, they would (IMO) be helping the TF2
> community in the long run by showing the players the variety that's out
> there.
>
> There can be no doubt that Quickplay itself can (and most likely is)
> limiting the experience of some players who don't use (or might not even
> know how to use) the server browser itself. There is a reason that the
> modding communites for these types of games have flourished, and it's
> certainly NOT because all people want is the "vanilla" experience.
>
> Again, I'm not even saying one is better than the other - every player
> develops their own preferencesbut it's clear that the moddable nature
> of  the game give it LEGS. How many people woudl ahve never exprienced the
> "Gun Game" mod on CSS if the only way they ever joined a server was by
> getting sent to a vanilla server via a matchmaking button?
>
> I fully understand the voices out there who say "give all that Quickplay
> traffic to us - we'll homogenize our servers however we have to to get it",
> as their probably the same folsk who throw up servers and expect them to
> fill up on theri own with little to no active server seeding by real
> players, etc. However, a modified server is not a negative, it's simply
> DIFFERENT. While most of my server will never benefit from Quickplay due to
> the over 70 custom maps that we run, it's really a shame that they don't,
> because those players are missing out on a ton of high-quality maps (we
> were among the very first servers to host hoodoo, frontier, and a plethora
> of other maps that were in varous stages of development, and we still host
> a couple of dozen in various stages of "beta") that they'll most likely
> never get to see by hitting that button.
>
> Again, I'm not turning my nose up at Vanilla, or any game mode/style for
> that matter - to each their own. I'm simply saying that by building
> "vanilla walls" around quickplay players, without even giving them the
> OPTION of being matched to a modified server and/or a custom map, we are
> denying them what has made TF2 great in the first place. Personally, I'd
> like TF2 to be around indefinitely, and I'm only interested in what I think
> will keep both new and veteran players interested in the game in the
> long-term.
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 5:19 PM, Rob Liu  wrote:
>
>> Quickplay is for vanilla servers.  If you choose to go nocrits/nospread
>> to cater for the competitive crowd, that's your choice.
>>
>> Why should Valve give in and give you the quick play traffic?  I can't
>> speak for Valve, but I assumed the whole point of quickplay is to reward
>> servers that provide the true TF2 experience Valve intended to be.
>>
>> I know I sounded like a spoiled child who won't share his toys.  But if
>> that's the direction we're heading with quickplay. We might as well put
>> instant spawn, fast spawn and bots servers to the quick play filter too.
>> Where do we draw the line is what I'm trying to say here.
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 10:07 AM, T Marler  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Fletcher,
>>>
>>> Does this change in stance mean we will some day see quick
>>> matching/quickplay for nocrits/disable damage spread/disable weapon spread
>>> servers? Competitive people like fresh blood too.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> - Original Message -
>>> From: Fletcher Dunn 
>>> Date: Thursday, December 8, 2011 2:00 pm
>>> Subject: [hlds] Let's be honest
>>> To: "Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list (
>>> hlds_li...@list.valvesoftware.com)" ,
>>> "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list (
>>> hlds@list.valvesoftware.com)" 
>>>
>>> > We all know that some server operators run mods specifically
>>> > designed to falsify information sent to the Valve backend and to
>>> > their players.  These mods inaccurately report the player
>>> > count and whether players are human or not.  They conceal
>>> > that significant modifications to gameplay have been made.
>>> > This is detrimental to players' experience.
>>> >
>>> > Perhaps some server operators would actually prefer to not run
>>> > these mods, but feel that it is necessary to compete and
>>> > maintain their community.  For this reason, Valve has made
>>> > the decision not to take any action against any server operators
>>> > at this time.
>>> >
>>> > We will be directly contacting some of the "institutional
>>> > offenders" who are using these mods on multiple servers.
>>> > However, whether we contact you directly or not, this email
>>> > serves as warning to all server operators that we do have the
>>> > ability to detect this class of behavior, and, going forward, we
>>> > are going to be more aggressive at policing it.  If we
>>> > deter

Re: [hlds] Let's be honest

[E. Olsen]

I think you missed my point. It should be all about player choice, and
trying to deliver what they're looking for. By giving the player the OPTION
of being placed in a modified server, they would (IMO) be helping the TF2
community in the long run by showing the players the variety that's out
there.

There can be no doubt that Quickplay itself can (and most likely is)
limiting the experience of some players who don't use (or might not even
know how to use) the server browser itself. There is a reason that the
modding communites for these types of games have flourished, and it's
certainly NOT because all people want is the "vanilla" experience.

Again, I'm not even saying one is better than the other - every player
develops their own preferencesbut it's clear that the moddable nature
of  the game give it LEGS. How many people woudl ahve never exprienced the
"Gun Game" mod on CSS if the only way they ever joined a server was by
getting sent to a vanilla server via a matchmaking button?

I fully understand the voices out there who say "give all that Quickplay
traffic to us - we'll homogenize our servers however we have to to get it",
as their probably the same folsk who throw up servers and expect them to
fill up on theri own with little to no active server seeding by real
players, etc. However, a modified server is not a negative, it's simply
DIFFERENT. While most of my server will never benefit from Quickplay due to
the over 70 custom maps that we run, it's really a shame that they don't,
because those players are missing out on a ton of high-quality maps (we
were among the very first servers to host hoodoo, frontier, and a plethora
of other maps that were in varous stages of development, and we still host
a couple of dozen in various stages of "beta") that they'll most likely
never get to see by hitting that button.

Again, I'm not turning my nose up at Vanilla, or any game mode/style for
that matter - to each their own. I'm simply saying that by building
"vanilla walls" around quickplay players, without even giving them the
OPTION of being matched to a modified server and/or a custom map, we are
denying them what has made TF2 great in the first place. Personally, I'd
like TF2 to be around indefinitely, and I'm only interested in what I think
will keep both new and veteran players interested in the game in the
long-term.

On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 5:19 PM, Rob Liu  wrote:

> Quickplay is for vanilla servers.  If you choose to go nocrits/nospread to
> cater for the competitive crowd, that's your choice.
>
> Why should Valve give in and give you the quick play traffic?  I can't
> speak for Valve, but I assumed the whole point of quickplay is to reward
> servers that provide the true TF2 experience Valve intended to be.
>
> I know I sounded like a spoiled child who won't share his toys.  But if
> that's the direction we're heading with quickplay. We might as well put
> instant spawn, fast spawn and bots servers to the quick play filter too.
> Where do we draw the line is what I'm trying to say here.
>
> On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 10:07 AM, T Marler  wrote:
>
>> Hi Fletcher,
>>
>> Does this change in stance mean we will some day see quick
>> matching/quickplay for nocrits/disable damage spread/disable weapon spread
>> servers? Competitive people like fresh blood too.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: Fletcher Dunn 
>> Date: Thursday, December 8, 2011 2:00 pm
>> Subject: [hlds] Let's be honest
>> To: "Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list (
>> hlds_li...@list.valvesoftware.com)" ,
>> "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list (
>> hlds@list.valvesoftware.com)" 
>>
>> > We all know that some server operators run mods specifically
>> > designed to falsify information sent to the Valve backend and to
>> > their players.  These mods inaccurately report the player
>> > count and whether players are human or not.  They conceal
>> > that significant modifications to gameplay have been made.
>> > This is detrimental to players' experience.
>> >
>> > Perhaps some server operators would actually prefer to not run
>> > these mods, but feel that it is necessary to compete and
>> > maintain their community.  For this reason, Valve has made
>> > the decision not to take any action against any server operators
>> > at this time.
>> >
>> > We will be directly contacting some of the "institutional
>> > offenders" who are using these mods on multiple servers.
>> > However, whether we contact you directly or not, this email
>> > serves as warning to all server operators that we do have the
>> > ability to detect this class of behavior, and, going forward, we
>> > are going to be more aggressive at policing it.  If we
>> > determine that you are modifying the network stream or otherwise
>> > circumventing basic security measures, we will take the actions
>> > needed to maintain a positive environment for our players.
>> >
>> > To be perfectly clear, here are some examples of the
>> > modifications and be

Re: [hlds] Let's be honest

[msleeper]

I can't fathom why people who are happy and willing to so obviously
abuse the system should be given any sort of accommodation.

On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 5:28 PM, Chad Hedstrom  wrote:
> Heck, go one step further to the obvious solution
>
>>include check box/settings in the quickplay interface that allowed a player 
>>to set what kind of servers they would be willing to be placed in, For 
>>example:
>
> [X] Stock and Modified
> [  ] Stock Only
> [  ] Modified Only
> [X] Obviously False and Misleading server population, mostly full of bots
>
> You might think I'm joking but TF2 is the epitome of modify, observe,
> fix, repeat. If you're going to classify the servers and send the
> operators threatening letters, you might as well make them an opt-in
> (as opposed to opt-out!) search filter. I'll be honest, I don't play
> as much TF2 as I used to, and one of the main reasons is it's a crap
> shoot as to whether you'll get in a real server or one full of bots.
>
> I'm not a big fan of heavy handed big brother type stuff, but this is
> the one bare exception I think 99% of your user base would appreciate
> seen culled from the master server list. Having an opt-in check box
> for these servers should be enough to pacify the remaining 1%.
>
> Valve has come up with some really solid, well rounded solutions to
> some really difficult problems. The fact that four years later you are
> just now tackling it makes me think that this is a deeper problem than
> we're led to believe. I'd be interested to hear what kinds of debates
> you've had on the topic. It would make for a great blog post!
>
> On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 3:38 PM, E. Olsen  wrote:
>> I wonder if perhaps an easier solution (and one which would give the
>> player's mroe input/control) would be to include check box/settings in the
>> quickplay interface that allowed a player to set what kind of servers they
>> would be willing to be placed in, For example:
>>
>> [X] Stock and Modified
>>
>> [  ] Stock Only
>>
>> [  ] Modified Only
>>
>> Have those settings stay persistent until changed by the player. As someone
>> who both operates servers AND has in excess of 2000 hours in the game, I
>> personally think the default setting should be "Stock & Modified", so as to
>> allow players to be exposed to as many game types/variations as possible. As
>> traffic to TF2 continues to slide, it gets hard and harder to fill servers
>> consistently (even servers that have built a ton of "regulars" over the
>> years).
>>
>> Frankly, what I would like to see most from Valve is the number of Valve's
>> "official" server to be drastically reduced (simply taking the number of
>> average number of new TF2 accounts registered should provide you with an
>> adequate idea of how many servers you really need for new players), as well
>> as taking action against the kinds of servers you listed above (fake
>> clients, redirects, etc.)
>>
>> One thing I DO think needs to be changed is the penalty against servers that
>> exceed 24 slots. I know the game/original maps were designed around 24
>> slots, and I can see Valve's point of view regarding servers that exceed
>> that number. However, as someone who has been running TF2 servers for 4
>> years now, I can say without reservation that 24 slot servers are
>> exceedingly difficult to get and keep full, even with an army of regulars.
>> On a 32 slot server, at the end of a long match, when 12 people leave the
>> server, you're still looking at a nice 10 v 10, and the population will
>> usually recover. With a 24 slot server, when a dozen people jump ship after
>> a long round, now you're down to 6 v 6, and the server will most likely die.
>> Hardware has improved vastly since our first TF2 server (we run dual quad
>> core boxes with plenty of juice), and handle 32 players without any issues.
>>
>> I love that you guys are doing what you can to help us get players to the
>> servers, I really dobut as it stands, you're telling us that the only
>> way you're willing to do it is if we strip out everything that make our
>> community servers unique to our players, and give them the same experience
>> they can get everywhere elsewhen the decision as to the
>> quality/experience on our servers should always (IMHO) be left up to the
>> players (which I think the scoring system currently in place is a great
>> indicator of).
>>
>> TF2's traffic is dwindlingone need look no further than Steam stats to
>> see that. I'm sure it will reach a base of "hardcore" players similar to how
>> CSS did - but those of us who have supported TF2 and Valve for years should
>> be given a better choice of "be vanilla, or get left out in the cold". If
>> the vast majority of the player base wanted vanilla, that's what most
>> servers would already be.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 4:07 PM, T Marler  wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Fletcher,
>>>
>>> Does this change in stance mean we will some day see quick
>>> matching/quickplay for nocrits/disable damage spre

Re: [hlds] Let's be honest

[Chad Hedstrom]

Heck, go one step further to the obvious solution

>include check box/settings in the quickplay interface that allowed a player to 
>set what kind of servers they would be willing to be placed in, For example:

[X] Stock and Modified
[  ] Stock Only
[  ] Modified Only
[X] Obviously False and Misleading server population, mostly full of bots

You might think I'm joking but TF2 is the epitome of modify, observe,
fix, repeat. If you're going to classify the servers and send the
operators threatening letters, you might as well make them an opt-in
(as opposed to opt-out!) search filter. I'll be honest, I don't play
as much TF2 as I used to, and one of the main reasons is it's a crap
shoot as to whether you'll get in a real server or one full of bots.

I'm not a big fan of heavy handed big brother type stuff, but this is
the one bare exception I think 99% of your user base would appreciate
seen culled from the master server list. Having an opt-in check box
for these servers should be enough to pacify the remaining 1%.

Valve has come up with some really solid, well rounded solutions to
some really difficult problems. The fact that four years later you are
just now tackling it makes me think that this is a deeper problem than
we're led to believe. I'd be interested to hear what kinds of debates
you've had on the topic. It would make for a great blog post!

On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 3:38 PM, E. Olsen  wrote:
> I wonder if perhaps an easier solution (and one which would give the
> player's mroe input/control) would be to include check box/settings in the
> quickplay interface that allowed a player to set what kind of servers they
> would be willing to be placed in, For example:
>
> [X] Stock and Modified
>
> [  ] Stock Only
>
> [  ] Modified Only
>
> Have those settings stay persistent until changed by the player. As someone
> who both operates servers AND has in excess of 2000 hours in the game, I
> personally think the default setting should be "Stock & Modified", so as to
> allow players to be exposed to as many game types/variations as possible. As
> traffic to TF2 continues to slide, it gets hard and harder to fill servers
> consistently (even servers that have built a ton of "regulars" over the
> years).
>
> Frankly, what I would like to see most from Valve is the number of Valve's
> "official" server to be drastically reduced (simply taking the number of
> average number of new TF2 accounts registered should provide you with an
> adequate idea of how many servers you really need for new players), as well
> as taking action against the kinds of servers you listed above (fake
> clients, redirects, etc.)
>
> One thing I DO think needs to be changed is the penalty against servers that
> exceed 24 slots. I know the game/original maps were designed around 24
> slots, and I can see Valve's point of view regarding servers that exceed
> that number. However, as someone who has been running TF2 servers for 4
> years now, I can say without reservation that 24 slot servers are
> exceedingly difficult to get and keep full, even with an army of regulars.
> On a 32 slot server, at the end of a long match, when 12 people leave the
> server, you're still looking at a nice 10 v 10, and the population will
> usually recover. With a 24 slot server, when a dozen people jump ship after
> a long round, now you're down to 6 v 6, and the server will most likely die.
> Hardware has improved vastly since our first TF2 server (we run dual quad
> core boxes with plenty of juice), and handle 32 players without any issues.
>
> I love that you guys are doing what you can to help us get players to the
> servers, I really dobut as it stands, you're telling us that the only
> way you're willing to do it is if we strip out everything that make our
> community servers unique to our players, and give them the same experience
> they can get everywhere elsewhen the decision as to the
> quality/experience on our servers should always (IMHO) be left up to the
> players (which I think the scoring system currently in place is a great
> indicator of).
>
> TF2's traffic is dwindlingone need look no further than Steam stats to
> see that. I'm sure it will reach a base of "hardcore" players similar to how
> CSS did - but those of us who have supported TF2 and Valve for years should
> be given a better choice of "be vanilla, or get left out in the cold". If
> the vast majority of the player base wanted vanilla, that's what most
> servers would already be.
>
> Thanks.
>
> On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 4:07 PM, T Marler  wrote:
>>
>> Hi Fletcher,
>>
>> Does this change in stance mean we will some day see quick
>> matching/quickplay for nocrits/disable damage spread/disable weapon spread
>> servers? Competitive people like fresh blood too.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: Fletcher Dunn 
>> Date: Thursday, December 8, 2011 2:00 pm
>> Subject: [hlds] Let's be honest
>> To: "Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
>> (hlds_li...@list.

Re: [hlds] Let's be honest

[Rob Liu]

Quickplay is for vanilla servers.  If you choose to go nocrits/nospread to
cater for the competitive crowd, that's your choice.

Why should Valve give in and give you the quick play traffic?  I can't
speak for Valve, but I assumed the whole point of quickplay is to reward
servers that provide the true TF2 experience Valve intended to be.

I know I sounded like a spoiled child who won't share his toys.  But if
that's the direction we're heading with quickplay. We might as well put
instant spawn, fast spawn and bots servers to the quick play filter too.
Where do we draw the line is what I'm trying to say here.

On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 10:07 AM, T Marler  wrote:

> Hi Fletcher,
>
> Does this change in stance mean we will some day see quick
> matching/quickplay for nocrits/disable damage spread/disable weapon spread
> servers? Competitive people like fresh blood too.
>
>
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: Fletcher Dunn 
> Date: Thursday, December 8, 2011 2:00 pm
> Subject: [hlds] Let's be honest
> To: "Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list (
> hlds_li...@list.valvesoftware.com)" ,
> "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list (
> hlds@list.valvesoftware.com)" 
>
> > We all know that some server operators run mods specifically
> > designed to falsify information sent to the Valve backend and to
> > their players.  These mods inaccurately report the player
> > count and whether players are human or not.  They conceal
> > that significant modifications to gameplay have been made.
> > This is detrimental to players' experience.
> >
> > Perhaps some server operators would actually prefer to not run
> > these mods, but feel that it is necessary to compete and
> > maintain their community.  For this reason, Valve has made
> > the decision not to take any action against any server operators
> > at this time.
> >
> > We will be directly contacting some of the "institutional
> > offenders" who are using these mods on multiple servers.
> > However, whether we contact you directly or not, this email
> > serves as warning to all server operators that we do have the
> > ability to detect this class of behavior, and, going forward, we
> > are going to be more aggressive at policing it.  If we
> > determine that you are modifying the network stream or otherwise
> > circumventing basic security measures, we will take the actions
> > needed to maintain a positive environment for our players.
> >
> > To be perfectly clear, here are some examples of the
> > modifications and behaviours which we consider especially
> > harmful to our community:
> >
> > * Forging or
> > modifying network communications used to describe server
> > properties to the backend or directly to clients.
> >
> > * Concealing the
> > fact that bots are bots, and making them appear as human
> > players.  (Running bots is OK, as long as no modifications
> > are made that make it difficult for players to identify which
> > players are bots and which are humans.)
> >
> > * Interfering
> > with the mechanisms that advertise modifications to gameplay
> > rules in the server browser.  (For example, nocrits,
> > gravity, respawn times, etc.)  Experimenting with gameplay
> > modifications is encouraged, but any mechanisms in the engine
> > designed to alert players to those modifications must be allowed
> > to function.
> >
> > * Listing the
> > same game server multiple times in the master server.
> >
> > Thank you,
> > Fletcher Dunn
> >
> >
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>
>
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Re: [hlds] Let's be honest

[Kyle Sanderson]

Hi Fletcher,

Sounds great! Just to clarify, is throwing up a shell on another continent
with the same host (or a similar host with a minimal amount of hops) then
'fake' broadcasting real stats to the master server list frowned upon? I've
done this in the past for a couple players and it seemed to work great for
them. Should this be practice be discontinued? or do you mean just flooding
with entries? I mean, it's just there to allow people to play else where,
it isn't meant to be malicious.

Thanks,
Kyle.

On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 1:00 PM, Fletcher Dunn
wrote:

> We all know that some server operators run mods specifically designed to
> falsify information sent to the Valve backend and to their players.  These
> mods inaccurately report the player count and whether players are human or
> not.  They conceal that significant modifications to gameplay have been
> made.  This is detrimental to players’ experience.
>
> ** **
>
> Perhaps some server operators would actually prefer to not run these mods,
> but feel that it is necessary to compete and maintain their community.  For
> this reason, Valve has made the decision not to take any action against any
> server operators at this time.
>
> ** **
>
> We will be directly contacting some of the “institutional offenders” who
> are using these mods on multiple servers.  However, whether we contact you
> directly or not, this email serves as warning to all server operators that
> we do have the ability to detect this class of behavior, and, going
> forward, we are going to be more aggressive at policing it.  If we
> determine that you are modifying the network stream or otherwise
> circumventing basic security measures, we will take the actions needed to
> maintain a positive environment for our players.
>
> ** **
>
> To be perfectly clear, here are some examples of the modifications and
> behaviours which we consider especially harmful to our community:
>
> **· **Forging or modifying network communications used to
> describe server properties to the backend or directly to clients.
>
> **· **Concealing the fact that bots are bots, and making them
> appear as human players.  (Running bots is OK, as long as no modifications
> are made that make it difficult for players to identify which players are
> bots and which are humans.)
>
> **· **Interfering with the mechanisms that advertise
> modifications to gameplay rules in the server browser.  (For example,
> nocrits, gravity, respawn times, etc.)  Experimenting with gameplay
> modifications is encouraged, but any mechanisms in the engine designed to
> alert players to those modifications must be allowed to function.
>
> **· **Listing the same game server multiple times in the master
> server.
>
> ** **
>
> Thank you,
>
> Fletcher Dunn
>
> ** **
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>
>
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Re: [hlds] Let's be honest

[Fletcher Dunn]

Right now, we're focused on the sorts of things I listed in that email.  If we 
broaden the scope, we'll let you know.

The fact that we didn't take any action right now, even though the tampering is 
so obvious, should hopefully make it clear that we are really concerned about 
alienating somebody who is actually adding value to our community (even if they 
are guilty of the tampering), as opposed to those who are just siphoning value 
away from it.

- Fletch


From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com 
[mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Clay Hansen
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2011 2:07 PM
To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
Subject: Re: [hlds] Let's be honest

I run a mod on a couple of my CS:S servers that modify the game name from 
"Counter-Strike: Source" to our community name. Would that be something you 
guys are cracking down on now? If so I'll remove it right away.

On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 4:59 PM, zach isaac 
mailto:drgnz...@gmail.com>> wrote:
One can only hope they also intend to take care of the "Pay to win" servers as 
well. Specifically nightteam. I cant use the "play now" without connecting to 
one of their servers. One can only imagine the horror that a first timer 
experiances when connecting to them.

On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 3:43 PM, msleeper 
mailto:mslee...@ismsleeperwrong.com>> wrote:
slow clap

On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 4:00 PM, Fletcher Dunn
mailto:fletch...@valvesoftware.com>> wrote:
> We all know that some server operators run mods specifically designed to
> falsify information sent to the Valve backend and to their players.  These
> mods inaccurately report the player count and whether players are human or
> not.  They conceal that significant modifications to gameplay have been
> made.  This is detrimental to players' experience.
>
>
>
> Perhaps some server operators would actually prefer to not run these mods,
> but feel that it is necessary to compete and maintain their community.  For
> this reason, Valve has made the decision not to take any action against any
> server operators at this time.
>
>
>
> We will be directly contacting some of the "institutional offenders" who are
> using these mods on multiple servers.  However, whether we contact you
> directly or not, this email serves as warning to all server operators that
> we do have the ability to detect this class of behavior, and, going forward,
> we are going to be more aggressive at policing it.  If we determine that you
> are modifying the network stream or otherwise circumventing basic security
> measures, we will take the actions needed to maintain a positive environment
> for our players.
>
>
>
> To be perfectly clear, here are some examples of the modifications and
> behaviours which we consider especially harmful to our community:
>
> * Forging or modifying network communications used to describe
> server properties to the backend or directly to clients.
>
> * Concealing the fact that bots are bots, and making them appear as
> human players.  (Running bots is OK, as long as no modifications are made
> that make it difficult for players to identify which players are bots and
> which are humans.)
>
> * Interfering with the mechanisms that advertise modifications to
> gameplay rules in the server browser.  (For example, nocrits, gravity,
> respawn times, etc.)  Experimenting with gameplay modifications is
> encouraged, but any mechanisms in the engine designed to alert players to
> those modifications must be allowed to function.
>
> * Listing the same game server multiple times in the master server.
>
>
>
> Thank you,
>
> Fletcher Dunn
>
>
>
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>

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Re: [hlds] Let's be honest

[Clay Hansen]

I run a mod on a couple of my CS:S servers that modify the game name from
"Counter-Strike: Source" to our community name. Would that be something you
guys are cracking down on now? If so I'll remove it right away.

On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 4:59 PM, zach isaac  wrote:

> One can only hope they also intend to take care of the "Pay to win"
> servers as well. Specifically nightteam. I cant use the "play now" without
> connecting to one of their servers. One can only imagine the horror that a
> first timer experiances when connecting to them.
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 3:43 PM, msleeper wrote:
>
>> slow clap
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 4:00 PM, Fletcher Dunn
>>  wrote:
>> > We all know that some server operators run mods specifically designed to
>> > falsify information sent to the Valve backend and to their players.
>> These
>> > mods inaccurately report the player count and whether players are human
>> or
>> > not.  They conceal that significant modifications to gameplay have been
>> > made.  This is detrimental to players’ experience.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Perhaps some server operators would actually prefer to not run these
>> mods,
>> > but feel that it is necessary to compete and maintain their community.
>> For
>> > this reason, Valve has made the decision not to take any action against
>> any
>> > server operators at this time.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > We will be directly contacting some of the “institutional offenders”
>> who are
>> > using these mods on multiple servers.  However, whether we contact you
>> > directly or not, this email serves as warning to all server operators
>> that
>> > we do have the ability to detect this class of behavior, and, going
>> forward,
>> > we are going to be more aggressive at policing it.  If we determine
>> that you
>> > are modifying the network stream or otherwise circumventing basic
>> security
>> > measures, we will take the actions needed to maintain a positive
>> environment
>> > for our players.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > To be perfectly clear, here are some examples of the modifications and
>> > behaviours which we consider especially harmful to our community:
>> >
>> > · Forging or modifying network communications used to describe
>> > server properties to the backend or directly to clients.
>> >
>> > · Concealing the fact that bots are bots, and making them
>> appear as
>> > human players.  (Running bots is OK, as long as no modifications are
>> made
>> > that make it difficult for players to identify which players are bots
>> and
>> > which are humans.)
>> >
>> > · Interfering with the mechanisms that advertise modifications
>> to
>> > gameplay rules in the server browser.  (For example, nocrits, gravity,
>> > respawn times, etc.)  Experimenting with gameplay modifications is
>> > encouraged, but any mechanisms in the engine designed to alert players
>> to
>> > those modifications must be allowed to function.
>> >
>> > · Listing the same game server multiple times in the master
>> server.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Thank you,
>> >
>> > Fletcher Dunn
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ___
>> > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
>> > please visit:
>> > https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>> >
>>
>> ___
>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
>> please visit:
>> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
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>
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Re: [hlds] Let's be honest

[zach isaac]

One can only hope they also intend to take care of the "Pay to win" servers
as well. Specifically nightteam. I cant use the "play now" without
connecting to one of their servers. One can only imagine the horror that a
first timer experiances when connecting to them.

On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 3:43 PM, msleeper wrote:

> slow clap
>
> On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 4:00 PM, Fletcher Dunn
>  wrote:
> > We all know that some server operators run mods specifically designed to
> > falsify information sent to the Valve backend and to their players.
> These
> > mods inaccurately report the player count and whether players are human
> or
> > not.  They conceal that significant modifications to gameplay have been
> > made.  This is detrimental to players’ experience.
> >
> >
> >
> > Perhaps some server operators would actually prefer to not run these
> mods,
> > but feel that it is necessary to compete and maintain their community.
> For
> > this reason, Valve has made the decision not to take any action against
> any
> > server operators at this time.
> >
> >
> >
> > We will be directly contacting some of the “institutional offenders” who
> are
> > using these mods on multiple servers.  However, whether we contact you
> > directly or not, this email serves as warning to all server operators
> that
> > we do have the ability to detect this class of behavior, and, going
> forward,
> > we are going to be more aggressive at policing it.  If we determine that
> you
> > are modifying the network stream or otherwise circumventing basic
> security
> > measures, we will take the actions needed to maintain a positive
> environment
> > for our players.
> >
> >
> >
> > To be perfectly clear, here are some examples of the modifications and
> > behaviours which we consider especially harmful to our community:
> >
> > · Forging or modifying network communications used to describe
> > server properties to the backend or directly to clients.
> >
> > · Concealing the fact that bots are bots, and making them appear
> as
> > human players.  (Running bots is OK, as long as no modifications are made
> > that make it difficult for players to identify which players are bots and
> > which are humans.)
> >
> > · Interfering with the mechanisms that advertise modifications to
> > gameplay rules in the server browser.  (For example, nocrits, gravity,
> > respawn times, etc.)  Experimenting with gameplay modifications is
> > encouraged, but any mechanisms in the engine designed to alert players to
> > those modifications must be allowed to function.
> >
> > · Listing the same game server multiple times in the master
> server.
> >
> >
> >
> > Thank you,
> >
> > Fletcher Dunn
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> > please visit:
> > https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
> >
>
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Re: [hlds] [hlds_linux] STEAMAUTH: Client PLAYERNAME received failure code 6

[Fletcher Dunn]

We've had a hard time fixing this for several reasons.  First, we've never been 
able to reproduce this.  Second, the issue is confounded by the fact that 
client crashes can often produce this.  The last round of reports we got for 
this problem seemed to always be muddled by client crashes --- which can 
definitely happen in large batches, BTW, depending on the bug.  We never got a 
good set of reports that weren't muddled by client crashes.  For Orangebox, we 
recently (within the last month) made a change that would try to distinguish 
between a true client auth problem, and a client crash, so hopefully that 
confounding factor can be separated.  (And we hope that the past week or so has 
seen a good increase in stability.)

We believe you that this bug still exists, and we do want to fix it.

If I could beg the patience of the server operators, and once more solicit 
detailed reports of this problem.  We will once again try to examine those 
reports and fix it.  I'll try to do a better job staying on top of this issue 
and keeping people informed about what we're doing, so we can close this bug.

Here's what is needed in order for us to investigate this:
* The time of the event.  Please remember to provide your local time zone, so 
we can correlate any timestamps in your logs to timestamps in our logs.
* Logs:
- The complete server log.  Please don't trim the log, just send the 
whole thing.  The login info can be useful, and perhaps other events that 
occurred previously.
- The complete console transcript.  If you are experiencing this 
problem and are not configured to capture the console output, please do so.
- Make sure we can easily locate the portion of the logs corresponding 
to the event.  (Timestamps should be sufficient, but they typically are not 
present for the console transcript.)
* We'd greatly prefer to get the complete logs.  But if this is not possible, 
and you are certain you have a good example, the bare minimum we'll need is:
- Public IP address of your server.  (For TF2 servers, this is output 
at near the time when you server logs onto Steam, in case you don't know it.)
- Steam ID's of the players who dropped.
* If you have multiple examples, please just pick one and send it.  If you have 
one really clear case where you are pretty sure the clients didn't crash, it 
will hopefully be enough to help us fix this problem.

We do care about this problem and want to fix it.  I'm sorry the issue has 
lingered.

Feel free to send these directly to my email address.  (Please zip up the big 
logs.)

One last thing: on December 6th, 2011, from about 3PM - 10PM US Pacific time, 
there was a known problem in our backend that might have manifested in issues 
like this.  It has been fixed.  Please don't send any examples near this time 
interval.

- Fletch

-Original Message-
From: hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com 
[mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of E3pO
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2011 7:08 AM
To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
Subject: [hlds_linux] STEAMAUTH: Client PLAYERNAME received failure code 6

STEAMAUTH: Client mipermip123 received failure code 6
STEAMAUTH: Client mipermip123 received failure code 6 L 12/08/2011 - 09:50:01: 
"PLAYERNAME <471>"
disconnected (reason "No Steam logon")
Dropped PLAYERNAME  from server (No Steam logon)

I've been getting these randomly the past few weeks on servers.
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Re: [hlds] Let's be honest

[msleeper]

slow clap

On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 4:00 PM, Fletcher Dunn
 wrote:
> We all know that some server operators run mods specifically designed to
> falsify information sent to the Valve backend and to their players.  These
> mods inaccurately report the player count and whether players are human or
> not.  They conceal that significant modifications to gameplay have been
> made.  This is detrimental to players’ experience.
>
>
>
> Perhaps some server operators would actually prefer to not run these mods,
> but feel that it is necessary to compete and maintain their community.  For
> this reason, Valve has made the decision not to take any action against any
> server operators at this time.
>
>
>
> We will be directly contacting some of the “institutional offenders” who are
> using these mods on multiple servers.  However, whether we contact you
> directly or not, this email serves as warning to all server operators that
> we do have the ability to detect this class of behavior, and, going forward,
> we are going to be more aggressive at policing it.  If we determine that you
> are modifying the network stream or otherwise circumventing basic security
> measures, we will take the actions needed to maintain a positive environment
> for our players.
>
>
>
> To be perfectly clear, here are some examples of the modifications and
> behaviours which we consider especially harmful to our community:
>
> · Forging or modifying network communications used to describe
> server properties to the backend or directly to clients.
>
> · Concealing the fact that bots are bots, and making them appear as
> human players.  (Running bots is OK, as long as no modifications are made
> that make it difficult for players to identify which players are bots and
> which are humans.)
>
> · Interfering with the mechanisms that advertise modifications to
> gameplay rules in the server browser.  (For example, nocrits, gravity,
> respawn times, etc.)  Experimenting with gameplay modifications is
> encouraged, but any mechanisms in the engine designed to alert players to
> those modifications must be allowed to function.
>
> · Listing the same game server multiple times in the master server.
>
>
>
> Thank you,
>
> Fletcher Dunn
>
>
>
>
> ___
> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives,
> please visit:
> https://list.valvesoftware.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/hlds
>

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Re: [hlds] Let's be honest

[Ant]

Yes I suspect people are shitting themselves as I type this. But only about
the global economy.

 

From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com
[mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of Fletcher Dunn
Sent: Friday, 9 December 2011 7:00 AM
To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
(hlds_li...@list.valvesoftware.com); Half-Life dedicated Win32 server
mailing list (hlds@list.valvesoftware.com)
Subject: [hlds] Let's be honest

 

We all know that some server operators run mods specifically designed to
falsify information sent to the Valve backend and to their players.  These
mods inaccurately report the player count and whether players are human or
not.  They conceal that significant modifications to gameplay have been
made.  This is detrimental to players' experience.

 

Perhaps some server operators would actually prefer to not run these mods,
but feel that it is necessary to compete and maintain their community.  For
this reason, Valve has made the decision not to take any action against any
server operators at this time.

 

We will be directly contacting some of the "institutional offenders" who are
using these mods on multiple servers.  However, whether we contact you
directly or not, this email serves as warning to all server operators that
we do have the ability to detect this class of behavior, and, going forward,
we are going to be more aggressive at policing it.  If we determine that you
are modifying the network stream or otherwise circumventing basic security
measures, we will take the actions needed to maintain a positive environment
for our players.

 

To be perfectly clear, here are some examples of the modifications and
behaviours which we consider especially harmful to our community:

. Forging or modifying network communications used to describe
server properties to the backend or directly to clients.

. Concealing the fact that bots are bots, and making them appear as
human players.  (Running bots is OK, as long as no modifications are made
that make it difficult for players to identify which players are bots and
which are humans.)

. Interfering with the mechanisms that advertise modifications to
gameplay rules in the server browser.  (For example, nocrits, gravity,
respawn times, etc.)  Experimenting with gameplay modifications is
encouraged, but any mechanisms in the engine designed to alert players to
those modifications must be allowed to function.

. Listing the same game server multiple times in the master server.

 

Thank you,

Fletcher Dunn

 

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Re: [hlds] Let's be honest

[E. Olsen]

I wonder if perhaps an easier solution (and one which would give the
player's mroe input/control) would be to include check box/settings in the
quickplay interface that allowed a player to set what kind of servers they
would be willing to be placed in, For example:

[X] Stock and Modified

[  ] Stock Only

[  ] Modified Only

Have those settings stay persistent until changed by the player. As someone
who both operates servers AND has in excess of 2000 hours in the game, I
personally think the default setting should be "Stock & Modified", so as to
allow players to be exposed to as many game types/variations as possible.
As traffic to TF2 continues to slide, it gets hard and harder to fill
servers consistently (even servers that have built a ton of "regulars" over
the years).

Frankly, what I would like to see most from Valve is the number of Valve's
"official" server to be drastically reduced (simply taking the number of
average number of new TF2 accounts registered should provide you with an
adequate idea of how many servers you really need for new players), as well
as taking action against the kinds of servers you listed above (fake
clients, redirects, etc.)

One thing I DO think needs to be changed is the penalty against servers
that exceed 24 slots. I know the game/original maps were designed around 24
slots, and I can see Valve's point of view regarding servers that exceed
that number. However, as someone who has been running TF2 servers for 4
years now, I can say without reservation that 24 slot servers are
exceedingly difficult to get and keep full, even with an army of regulars.
On a 32 slot server, at the end of a long match, when 12 people leave the
server, you're still looking at a nice 10 v 10, and the population will
usually recover. With a 24 slot server, when a dozen people jump ship after
a long round, now you're down to 6 v 6, and the server will most likely
die. Hardware has improved vastly since our first TF2 server (we run dual
quad core boxes with plenty of juice), and handle 32 players without any
issues.

I love that you guys are doing what you can to help us get players to the
servers, I really dobut as it stands, you're telling us that the only
way you're willing to do it is if we strip out everything that make our
community servers unique to our players, and give them the same experience
they can get everywhere elsewhen the decision as to the
quality/experience on our servers should always (IMHO) be left up to the
players (which I think the scoring system currently in place is a great
indicator of).

TF2's traffic is dwindlingone need look no further than Steam stats to
see that. I'm sure it will reach a base of "hardcore" players similar to
how CSS did - but those of us who have supported TF2 and Valve for years
should be given a better choice of "be vanilla, or get left out in the
cold". If the vast majority of the player base wanted vanilla, that's what
most servers would already be.

Thanks.

On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 4:07 PM, T Marler  wrote:

> Hi Fletcher,
>
> Does this change in stance mean we will some day see quick
> matching/quickplay for nocrits/disable damage spread/disable weapon spread
> servers? Competitive people like fresh blood too.
>
>
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: Fletcher Dunn 
> Date: Thursday, December 8, 2011 2:00 pm
> Subject: [hlds] Let's be honest
> To: "Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list (
> hlds_li...@list.valvesoftware.com)" ,
> "Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list (
> hlds@list.valvesoftware.com)" 
>
> > We all know that some server operators run mods specifically
> > designed to falsify information sent to the Valve backend and to
> > their players.  These mods inaccurately report the player
> > count and whether players are human or not.  They conceal
> > that significant modifications to gameplay have been made.
> > This is detrimental to players' experience.
> >
> > Perhaps some server operators would actually prefer to not run
> > these mods, but feel that it is necessary to compete and
> > maintain their community.  For this reason, Valve has made
> > the decision not to take any action against any server operators
> > at this time.
> >
> > We will be directly contacting some of the "institutional
> > offenders" who are using these mods on multiple servers.
> > However, whether we contact you directly or not, this email
> > serves as warning to all server operators that we do have the
> > ability to detect this class of behavior, and, going forward, we
> > are going to be more aggressive at policing it.  If we
> > determine that you are modifying the network stream or otherwise
> > circumventing basic security measures, we will take the actions
> > needed to maintain a positive environment for our players.
> >
> > To be perfectly clear, here are some examples of the
> > modifications and behaviours which we consider especially
> > harmful to our community:
> >
> > * Forging or
> > modifying net

Re: [hlds] Let's be honest

[Jesse Porter]

Tremendous news and a welcome change from previous positions. Thanks,
Fletch!
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Re: [hlds] Let's be honest

[Fletcher Dunn]

We have plans for some sort of intermediate form of game server selection that 
allows for more user customization.  Something in between quickplay and the 
full server browser.  We are really interested in helping people locate the 
type of game they want to play, and if we can help them find it quickly without 
wading through the server browser, we'll do that.

As for whether we will change the purpose of the super-simple "press one 
button, get into a game" version of quickplay we have right now --- probably 
not.  That search will probably continue to be used primarily to locate a good 
server for the vanilla team fortress experience, the one we expect new players 
to use.

- Fletch


From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com 
[mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com] On Behalf Of T Marler
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2011 1:07 PM
To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
Subject: Re: [hlds] Let's be honest

Hi Fletcher,

Does this change in stance mean we will some day see quick matching/quickplay 
for nocrits/disable damage spread/disable weapon spread servers? Competitive 
people like fresh blood too.



- Original Message -
From: Fletcher Dunn 
Date: Thursday, December 8, 2011 2:00 pm
Subject: [hlds] Let's be honest
To: "Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list 
(hlds_li...@list.valvesoftware.com)" , 
"Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list (hlds@list.valvesoftware.com)" 


> We all know that some server operators run mods specifically
> designed to falsify information sent to the Valve backend and to
> their players.  These mods inaccurately report the player
> count and whether players are human or not.  They conceal
> that significant modifications to gameplay have been made.
> This is detrimental to players' experience.
>
> Perhaps some server operators would actually prefer to not run
> these mods, but feel that it is necessary to compete and
> maintain their community.  For this reason, Valve has made
> the decision not to take any action against any server operators
> at this time.
>
> We will be directly contacting some of the "institutional
> offenders" who are using these mods on multiple servers.
> However, whether we contact you directly or not, this email
> serves as warning to all server operators that we do have the
> ability to detect this class of behavior, and, going forward, we
> are going to be more aggressive at policing it.  If we
> determine that you are modifying the network stream or otherwise
> circumventing basic security measures, we will take the actions
> needed to maintain a positive environment for our players.
>
> To be perfectly clear, here are some examples of the
> modifications and behaviours which we consider especially
> harmful to our community:
>
> * Forging or
> modifying network communications used to describe server
> properties to the backend or directly to clients.
>
> * Concealing the
> fact that bots are bots, and making them appear as human
> players.  (Running bots is OK, as long as no modifications
> are made that make it difficult for players to identify which
> players are bots and which are humans.)
>
> * Interfering
> with the mechanisms that advertise modifications to gameplay
> rules in the server browser.  (For example, nocrits,
> gravity, respawn times, etc.)  Experimenting with gameplay
> modifications is encouraged, but any mechanisms in the engine
> designed to alert players to those modifications must be allowed
> to function.
>
> * Listing the
> same game server multiple times in the master server.
>
> Thank you,
> Fletcher Dunn
>
>
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Re: [hlds] Let's be honest

[T Marler]

Hi Fletcher,

Does this change in stance mean we will some day see quick matching/quickplay 
for nocrits/disable damage spread/disable weapon spread servers? Competitive 
people like fresh blood too.



- Original Message -
From: Fletcher Dunn 
Date: Thursday, December 8, 2011 2:00 pm
Subject: [hlds] Let's be honest
To:  "Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list 
(hlds_li...@list.valvesoftware.com)" , 
"Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
(hlds@list.valvesoftware.com)" 

> We all know that some server operators run mods specifically 
> designed to falsify information sent to the Valve backend and to 
> their players.  These mods inaccurately report the player 
> count and whether players are human or not.  They conceal 
> that significant modifications to gameplay have been made.  
> This is detrimental to players' experience.
> 
> Perhaps some server operators would actually prefer to not run 
> these mods, but feel that it is necessary to compete and 
> maintain their community.  For this reason, Valve has made 
> the decision not to take any action against any server operators 
> at this time.
> 
> We will be directly contacting some of the "institutional 
> offenders" who are using these mods on multiple servers.  
> However, whether we contact you directly or not, this email 
> serves as warning to all server operators that we do have the 
> ability to detect this class of behavior, and, going forward, we 
> are going to be more aggressive at policing it.  If we 
> determine that you are modifying the network stream or otherwise 
> circumventing basic security measures, we will take the actions 
> needed to maintain a positive environment for our players.
> 
> To be perfectly clear, here are some examples of the 
> modifications and behaviours which we consider especially 
> harmful to our community:
> 
> * Forging or 
> modifying network communications used to describe server 
> properties to the backend or directly to clients.
> 
> * Concealing the 
> fact that bots are bots, and making them appear as human 
> players.  (Running bots is OK, as long as no modifications 
> are made that make it difficult for players to identify which 
> players are bots and which are humans.)
> 
> * Interfering 
> with the mechanisms that advertise modifications to gameplay 
> rules in the server browser.  (For example, nocrits, 
> gravity, respawn times, etc.)  Experimenting with gameplay 
> modifications is encouraged, but any mechanisms in the engine 
> designed to alert players to those modifications must be allowed 
> to function.
> 
> * Listing the 
> same game server multiple times in the master server.
> 
> Thank you,
> Fletcher Dunn
> 
>
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[hlds] Let's be honest

[Fletcher Dunn]

We all know that some server operators run mods specifically designed to 
falsify information sent to the Valve backend and to their players.  These mods 
inaccurately report the player count and whether players are human or not.  
They conceal that significant modifications to gameplay have been made.  This 
is detrimental to players' experience.

Perhaps some server operators would actually prefer to not run these mods, but 
feel that it is necessary to compete and maintain their community.  For this 
reason, Valve has made the decision not to take any action against any server 
operators at this time.

We will be directly contacting some of the "institutional offenders" who are 
using these mods on multiple servers.  However, whether we contact you directly 
or not, this email serves as warning to all server operators that we do have 
the ability to detect this class of behavior, and, going forward, we are going 
to be more aggressive at policing it.  If we determine that you are modifying 
the network stream or otherwise circumventing basic security measures, we will 
take the actions needed to maintain a positive environment for our players.

To be perfectly clear, here are some examples of the modifications and 
behaviours which we consider especially harmful to our community:

* Forging or modifying network communications used to describe server 
properties to the backend or directly to clients.

* Concealing the fact that bots are bots, and making them appear as 
human players.  (Running bots is OK, as long as no modifications are made that 
make it difficult for players to identify which players are bots and which are 
humans.)

* Interfering with the mechanisms that advertise modifications to 
gameplay rules in the server browser.  (For example, nocrits, gravity, respawn 
times, etc.)  Experimenting with gameplay modifications is encouraged, but any 
mechanisms in the engine designed to alert players to those modifications must 
be allowed to function.

* Listing the same game server multiple times in the master server.

Thank you,
Fletcher Dunn

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[hlds] Server Admin Request - Killing Floor Free Weekend and Twisted Christmas Event On Now!!!

[John Gibson]

Everyone,

The Killing Floor Free Weekend is now live and will be running from now
until Sunday at 1PM PST. Additionally the Twisted Christmas event is also
on now and will be running until January 4th.

With the KF free weekend on I have a couple of requests for the server
admin community. First, if anyone has any spare hardware could you please
put up some extra Killing Floor servers? We expect a fairly large influx of
players during this free weekend (the last free weekend we ran for KF had
player counts peaking over 24,000) on top of the large influx of players
already playing Twisted Christmas. Second, could you all please set up a
decent amount of your servers (30-50%) running the game on Normal
difficulty. Since there will be a large influx of new players, it would be
best if they got to try the game out on the Normal difficulty first, has
Hard and above are designed for more experienced players. Additionally I
would suggest medium game length for these servers, so the new player get
to experience a fight all the way to the final boss without having to play
for an hour. If you could please try and avoid using lots of
mutators/custom content on these servers, as new players tend to get turned
off if they have to download a bunch of new content.

For maps, if you want people to get the Twisted Christmas experience I
would suggest running the maps Ice Cave and Evil Santas Lair. These two
maps are Christmas themed, and also allow players to get the map
achievements they need to unlock the special Baddest Santa KF Character
during the event. I would also request that some of you please maintain
servers running all of the standard maps, so that the new players can also
experience the range of gameplay that exists in KF.

Thanks you all in advance for your assistance. With you're help we'll give
the community an awesome Free Weekend/Twisted Christmas experience!

Regards,

John Gibson
President
Tripwire Interactive
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