Re: Must be Friday: Mainframe USBs!
I never ran into that one, but I did experience tape failures due to the raised floor. The year was 1963, the CPU a 7080, and the tape drives were, IIRC, 726s. My memory if fuzzy on the last - they were the predecessors of the 729s. One drive kept having I/O errors. The CE checked it several times and it functioned perfectly for him. It was just luck, but I noticed that it failed any time someone stepped on the tile in front of the drive while it was reading or writing. It seems that one of the cables was supporting the tile. When stepped on, the tile exerted downward pressure on the cable, causing a bad connection to fail. It would not fail for the CE because when he tested the drive, the first thing he did was remove that tile and the last, replace it. Regards, Richard Schuh > -Original Message- > From: The IBM z/VM Operating System > [mailto:ib...@listserv.uark.edu] On Behalf Of Brian Nielsen > Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 7:26 AM > To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU > Subject: Re: Must be Friday: Mainframe USBs! > > I remember a couple HDA failures caused by the raised floor > layout. The = > > cold air was venting up directly beneath the 3380's and was > too cold. It= > > caused the grease in the bearings to thicken. > > Brian Nielsen > > > On Mon, 9 Mar 2009 19:57:47 -0500, Marcy Cortes > wrote: > > >I could have written the exact the same story - just need to strike > >the= > > >"and TPF" words and the word airline.. Ah if only we had this IBMVM > >list back then, we could have commiserated together. The > most fun was > >losing the volume with the directory on a Friday afternoon. > > > >Nowadays, none of that fun. Just microcode !! > > > > > >Marcy > > > > > >"This message may contain confidential and/or privileged > information. > >If= > > >you are not the addressee or authorized to receive this for the > >addressee, you must not use, copy, disclose, or take any > action based > >on= > > >this message or any information herein. If you have received this > >message in error, please advise the sender immediately by > reply e-mail > >and delete this message. Thank you for your cooperation." > > > > > > > >____ > > > >From: The IBM z/VM Operating System > [mailto:ib...@listserv.uark.edu] On > >Behalf Of Schuh, Richard > >Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 4:45 PM > >To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU > >Subject: Re: [IBMVM] Must be Friday: Mainframe USBs! > > > > > >I haven't experienced a failure of an HDA since the days the airline > >only allowed VM to have 3380-A04 and -B04 devices that were > >hand-me-downs from MVS and TPF. It took a week of 7 HDA > failures during > >the 5 day work week, all housing critical data, before they finally > >bought new DASD for VM. I think most of the replacement HDAs were > >cannibalized from devices sitting on the loading dock waiting for > >someone to haul them away. One died less than an hour after > we finished > >a restore. No big deal, it only took 6.5 hours to do that restore.. > > > > > >Regards, > >Richard Schuh > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: The IBM z/VM Operating System > >[mailto:ib...@listserv.uark.edu] On Behalf Of Dave Wade > > Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 4:27 PM > > To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU > > Subject: Re: Must be Friday: Mainframe USBs! > > > > > > > > I remember having a 3370 (I think) replaced on a 4331. > The CE said the > >reason the MAP ran for so many pages was that the Head and Drive > >assembly (HDA) was the most expensive part of the drive, so the > >Diagnostic floppy would exhaustively test every component before it > >failed the Head and Drive Assembly. He was pretty sure it > was the HDA > >and arrived with one, which was left to acclimatize (I think > it needed > >4= > > >hours) while he ran through the MAP. > > > > > > > > Glorious days, > > > > > > > > Dave Wade G4UGM > > > > Illegitimi Non Carborundum > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: The IBM z/VM Operating System > >[mailto:ib...@listserv.uark.edu] On Behalf Of David Boyes > > Sent: 09 March 2009 15:47 > > To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU > > Subject: Re: Must be Friday: Mainframe USBs! > > > > > > > > The 308x had a FBA device for the support processor to use. > >Wasn't customer accessible, though. > > > > I remember helping a CE replace one once when it failed > on a 3081D. > >Messy. The MAP ran for tens of pages. > > > > > > On 3/9/09 11:42 AM, "Edward M Martin" > >wrote: > > > > I believe that the 3090 or something similar. > > It has been awhile since the CE and I talked about devices. > >= > == > === >
Moderator intervention, Re: [IBMVM] Must be Friday: Mainframe USBs!
Dear colleagues: Your moderator is compelled to point out that in may parts of the globe, it is now Tuesday. *cough*rampantlyofftopic*cough* By dint of the ongoing ramblings of this thread, it is officially confirmed: Many of us are older than dirt. Your humble moderator, while perhaps not older than dirt, is sufficiently aged to remember when much of what we now call "dirt" was shiny and new. In fact, some dirt still had visible tool and die marks, and at that time one could still find occasional remnants of the factory packaging -- though the warranty period on dirt and dirt-like products had long since expired, and the home office steadfastly refused to acknowledge questions regarding maintenance and repairs. For further readings on the specific topic of computing through the ages, your moderator suggests: http://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/comphist/ -- Computer History Collection, Smithsonian National Museum of American History http://www.computerhistory.org/ -- the Computer History Museum http://www.computerhope.com/cgi-bin/today.cgi -- ComputerHope.com "On this day in computer industry history" For more information on the general theme of "Older Than Dirt", your moderator recommends http://www.olderthandirt.org/19_things_it_took_me_50_years_to.html -- but is compelled to point out that none of these pithy insights specifically mention the declared subject of our cozy little nook of the web. -dan. Daniel P. Martin - IBMVM List Janitor modera...@gizmoworks.com / dmar...@gizmoworks.com
Re: Must be Friday: Mainframe USBs!
I remember a couple HDA failures caused by the raised floor layout. The cold air was venting up directly beneath the 3380's and was too cold. It caused the grease in the bearings to thicken. Brian Nielsen On Mon, 9 Mar 2009 19:57:47 -0500, Marcy Cortes wrote: >I could have written the exact the same story - just need to strike the >"and TPF" words and the word airline.. Ah if only we had this IBMVM >list back then, we could have commiserated together. The most fun was >losing the volume with the directory on a Friday afternoon. > >Nowadays, none of that fun. Just microcode !! > > >Marcy > > >"This message may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If >you are not the addressee or authorized to receive this for the >addressee, you must not use, copy, disclose, or take any action based on >this message or any information herein. If you have received this >message in error, please advise the sender immediately by reply e-mail >and delete this message. Thank you for your cooperation." > > > > > >From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:ib...@listserv.uark.edu] On >Behalf Of Schuh, Richard >Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 4:45 PM >To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU >Subject: Re: [IBMVM] Must be Friday: Mainframe USBs! > > >I haven't experienced a failure of an HDA since the days the airline >only allowed VM to have 3380-A04 and -B04 devices that were >hand-me-downs from MVS and TPF. It took a week of 7 HDA failures during >the 5 day work week, all housing critical data, before they finally >bought new DASD for VM. I think most of the replacement HDAs were >cannibalized from devices sitting on the loading dock waiting for >someone to haul them away. One died less than an hour after we finished >a restore. No big deal, it only took 6.5 hours to do that restore.. > > >Regards, >Richard Schuh > > > > > > > > > From: The IBM z/VM Operating System >[mailto:ib...@listserv.uark.edu] On Behalf Of Dave Wade > Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 4:27 PM > To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU > Subject: Re: Must be Friday: Mainframe USBs! > > > > I remember having a 3370 (I think) replaced on a 4331. The CE >said the reason the MAP ran for so many pages was that the Head and >Drive assembly (HDA) was the most expensive part of the drive, so the >Diagnostic floppy would exhaustively test every component before it >failed the Head and Drive Assembly. He was pretty sure it was the HDA >and arrived with one, which was left to acclimatize (I think it needed 4 >hours) while he ran through the MAP. > > > > Glorious days, > > > > Dave Wade G4UGM > > Illegitimi Non Carborundum > > > > -Original Message- > From: The IBM z/VM Operating System >[mailto:ib...@listserv.uark.edu] On Behalf Of David Boyes > Sent: 09 March 2009 15:47 > To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU > Subject: Re: Must be Friday: Mainframe USBs! > > > > The 308x had a FBA device for the support processor to use. >Wasn't customer accessible, though. > > I remember helping a CE replace one once when it failed on a >3081D. Messy. The MAP ran for tens of pages. > > > On 3/9/09 11:42 AM, "Edward M Martin" >wrote: > > I believe that the 3090 or something similar. > It has been awhile since the CE and I talked about devices. > = ===
Re: Must be Friday: Mainframe USBs!
I don't miss the "bad old days".
From someone who has seen the "bad old days" for 42 years, Mar. 6, 1967.
Jim
Marcy Cortes wrote:
I could have written the exact the same story - just need to strike the
"and TPF" words and the word airline.. Ah if only we had this IBMVM
list back then, we could have commiserated together. The most fun was
losing the volume with the directory on a Friday afternoon. =20
=20
Nowadays, none of that fun. Just microcode !!=20
Marcy=20
"This message may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If
you are not the addressee or authorized to receive this for the
addressee, you must not use, copy, disclose, or take any action based on
this message or any information herein. If you have received this
message in error, please advise the sender immediately by reply e-mail
and delete this message. Thank you for your cooperation."
=20
From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:ib...@listserv.uark.edu] On
Behalf Of Schuh, Richard
Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 4:45 PM
To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU
Subject: Re: [IBMVM] Must be Friday: Mainframe USBs!
I haven't experienced a failure of an HDA since the days the airline
only allowed VM to have 3380-A04 and -B04 devices that were
hand-me-downs from MVS and TPF. It took a week of 7 HDA failures during
the 5 day work week, all housing critical data, before they finally
bought new DASD for VM. I think most of the replacement HDAs were
cannibalized from devices sitting on the loading dock waiting for
someone to haul them away. One died less than an hour after we finished
a restore. No big deal, it only took 6.5 hours to do that restore..=20
=20
Regards,=20
Richard Schuh=20
=20
=20
From: The IBM z/VM Operating System
[mailto:ib...@listserv.uark.edu] On Behalf Of Dave Wade
Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 4:27 PM
To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU
Subject: Re: Must be Friday: Mainframe USBs!
=09
=09
I remember having a 3370 (I think) replaced on a 4331. The CE
said the reason the MAP ran for so many pages was that the Head and
Drive assembly (HDA) was the most expensive part of the drive, so the
Diagnostic floppy would exhaustively test every component before it
failed the Head and Drive Assembly. He was pretty sure it was the HDA
and arrived with one, which was left to acclimatize (I think it needed 4
hours) while he ran through the MAP.=20
=20
Glorious days, =20
=20
Dave Wade G4UGM
Illegitimi Non Carborundum
=20
-Original Message-
From: The IBM z/VM Operating System
[mailto:ib...@listserv.uark.edu] On Behalf Of David Boyes
Sent: 09 March 2009 15:47
To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU
Subject: Re: Must be Friday: Mainframe USBs!
=20
The 308x had a FBA device for the support processor to use.
Wasn't customer accessible, though.=20
=09
I remember helping a CE replace one once when it failed on a
3081D. Messy. The MAP ran for tens of pages.=20
=09
=09
On 3/9/09 11:42 AM, "Edward M Martin"
wrote:
I believe that the 3090 or something similar.
It has been awhile since the CE and I talked about devices.
--
Jim Bohnsack
Cornell University
(972) 596-6377 home/office
(972) 342-5823 cell
jab...@cornell.edu
Re: Must be Friday: Mainframe USBs!
I could have written the exact the same story - just need to strike the
"and TPF" words and the word airline.. Ah if only we had this IBMVM
list back then, we could have commiserated together. The most fun was
losing the volume with the directory on a Friday afternoon.
Nowadays, none of that fun. Just microcode !!
Marcy
"This message may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If
you are not the addressee or authorized to receive this for the
addressee, you must not use, copy, disclose, or take any action based on
this message or any information herein. If you have received this
message in error, please advise the sender immediately by reply e-mail
and delete this message. Thank you for your cooperation."
From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:ib...@listserv.uark.edu] On
Behalf Of Schuh, Richard
Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 4:45 PM
To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU
Subject: Re: [IBMVM] Must be Friday: Mainframe USBs!
I haven't experienced a failure of an HDA since the days the airline
only allowed VM to have 3380-A04 and -B04 devices that were
hand-me-downs from MVS and TPF. It took a week of 7 HDA failures during
the 5 day work week, all housing critical data, before they finally
bought new DASD for VM. I think most of the replacement HDAs were
cannibalized from devices sitting on the loading dock waiting for
someone to haul them away. One died less than an hour after we finished
a restore. No big deal, it only took 6.5 hours to do that restore..
Regards,
Richard Schuh
From: The IBM z/VM Operating System
[mailto:ib...@listserv.uark.edu] On Behalf Of Dave Wade
Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 4:27 PM
To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU
Subject: Re: Must be Friday: Mainframe USBs!
I remember having a 3370 (I think) replaced on a 4331. The CE
said the reason the MAP ran for so many pages was that the Head and
Drive assembly (HDA) was the most expensive part of the drive, so the
Diagnostic floppy would exhaustively test every component before it
failed the Head and Drive Assembly. He was pretty sure it was the HDA
and arrived with one, which was left to acclimatize (I think it needed 4
hours) while he ran through the MAP.
Glorious days,
Dave Wade G4UGM
Illegitimi Non Carborundum
-Original Message-
From: The IBM z/VM Operating System
[mailto:ib...@listserv.uark.edu] On Behalf Of David Boyes
Sent: 09 March 2009 15:47
To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU
Subject: Re: Must be Friday: Mainframe USBs!
The 308x had a FBA device for the support processor to use.
Wasn't customer accessible, though.
I remember helping a CE replace one once when it failed on a
3081D. Messy. The MAP ran for tens of pages.
On 3/9/09 11:42 AM, "Edward M Martin"
wrote:
I believe that the 3090 or something similar.
It has been awhile since the CE and I talked about devices.
Re: Must be Friday: Mainframe USBs!
I haven't experienced a failure of an HDA since the days the airline only allowed VM to have 3380-A04 and -B04 devices that were hand-me-downs from MVS and TPF. It took a week of 7 HDA failures during the 5 day work week, all housing critical data, before they finally bought new DASD for VM. I think most of the replacement HDAs were cannibalized from devices sitting on the loading dock waiting for someone to haul them away. One died less than an hour after we finished a restore. No big deal, it only took 6.5 hours to do that restore.. Regards, Richard Schuh From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:ib...@listserv.uark.edu] On Behalf Of Dave Wade Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 4:27 PM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: Must be Friday: Mainframe USBs! I remember having a 3370 (I think) replaced on a 4331. The CE said the reason the MAP ran for so many pages was that the Head and Drive assembly (HDA) was the most expensive part of the drive, so the Diagnostic floppy would exhaustively test every component before it failed the Head and Drive Assembly. He was pretty sure it was the HDA and arrived with one, which was left to acclimatize (I think it needed 4 hours) while he ran through the MAP. Glorious days, Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum -Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:ib...@listserv.uark.edu] On Behalf Of David Boyes Sent: 09 March 2009 15:47 To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: Must be Friday: Mainframe USBs! The 308x had a FBA device for the support processor to use. Wasn't customer accessible, though. I remember helping a CE replace one once when it failed on a 3081D. Messy. The MAP ran for tens of pages. On 3/9/09 11:42 AM, "Edward M Martin" wrote: I believe that the 3090 or something similar. It has been awhile since the CE and I talked about devices.
Re: Must be Friday: Mainframe USBs!
I remember having a 3370 (I think) replaced on a 4331. The CE said the reason the MAP ran for so many pages was that the Head and Drive assembly (HDA) was the most expensive part of the drive, so the Diagnostic floppy would exhaustively test every component before it failed the Head and Drive Assembly. He was pretty sure it was the HDA and arrived with one, which was left to acclimatize (I think it needed 4 hours) while he ran through the MAP. Glorious days, Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum -Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:ib...@listserv.uark.edu] On Behalf Of David Boyes Sent: 09 March 2009 15:47 To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: Must be Friday: Mainframe USBs! The 308x had a FBA device for the support processor to use. Wasn't customer accessible, though. I remember helping a CE replace one once when it failed on a 3081D. Messy. The MAP ran for tens of pages. On 3/9/09 11:42 AM, "Edward M Martin" wrote: I believe that the 3090 or something similar. It has been awhile since the CE and I talked about devices.
Re: Must be Friday: Mainframe USBs!
Ah, but which impossibilities are they working to turn into realities? Regards, Richard Schuh > > "Impossible" is just hyperbole for "No one ever did the > work." See that faint glow on the distant horizon? That's > the visible energy given off by elves turning the > "Impossible" into "Reality." > > Alan Altmark > z/VM Development > IBM Endicott >
Re: Must be Friday: Mainframe USBs!
On Monday, 03/09/2009 at 02:15 EDT, Kris Buelens wrote: > - VSAM has the ability to store (replicate?) the lowest level index > set in front of the track where the data reside. This to avoid seek, > the idea was that the higher level index blocks would be buffered in > storage. But, who cares/who has time nowadays to get that last bit of > performance improvement. > - our own beloved VM has one function not working on FBA... Please > guess The x-link part of CSE needs CKD. The locking mechanism > doesn't need Reserve/Release. With one, complex, I/O the XLINK SW is > able to test if a cylinder is free for e.g. a R/W LINK and if so, mark > it as being used. Kind of TestAndSwap. Impossible on FBA I've been > told. "Impossible" is just hyperbole for "No one ever did the work." See that faint glow on the distant horizon? That's the visible energy given off by elves turning the "Impossible" into "Reality." Alan Altmark z/VM Development IBM Endicott
Re: Must be Friday: Mainframe USBs!
In the distant past, we had a device called a "Fast Paging Unit" attached to our 4381. This had many large boards each containing many dozens of small memory chips. It was channel attached and emulated a partial 3380. We allocated it to HPO swapping ala Vista's USB ReadyBoost. Bob -Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:ib...@listserv.uark.edu] On Behalf Of Jeff Kennedy Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 12:08 PM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: Must be Friday: Mainframe USBs! The 3090 had a complete 4331 for a support processor. Jeffry A. Kennedy Certco,Inc jkenn...@certcoinc.com 608-270-2385 -Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:ib...@listserv.uark.edu] On Behalf Of Edward M Martin Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 10:42 AM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: Must be Friday: Mainframe USBs! I believe that the 3090 or something similar. It has been awhile since the CE and I talked about devices. Ed Martin Aultman Health Foundation 330-588-4723 ext 40441 -Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:ib...@listserv.uark.edu] On Behalf Of Schuh, Richard Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 11:22 AM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: Must be Friday: Mainframe USBs! Which ones would those have been? Our 360/50 used punched mylar cards. Any kind of disk that was available at the time would have been physically too large to fit in the frame :-) Regards, Richard Schuh > Why not FBA? > > Oh, seems to me that some of the older high strength CPU's > used FBA devices to hold the microcode. > > Ed Martin > Aultman Health Foundation > 330-588-4723 > ext 40441 This electronic transmission and any documents accompanying this electronic transmission contain confidential information belonging to the sender. This information may be legally privileged. The information is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or the taking of any action in reliance on or regarding the contents of this electronically transmitted information is strictly prohibited.
Re: Must be Friday: Mainframe USBs!
That seems to imply that the x-link part of CSE can't be on FCP attached drives... I thought I've read that z/VM can be installed entirely on FCP attached drives. But I didn't read that much in detail if there were functions that wouldn't work in that world. Perhaps a future release would address that issue? Tom Duerbusch THD Consulting >>> Kris Buelens 3/9/2009 1:15 PM >>> Shall I plead a tiny bit for CKD? - VSAM has the ability to store (replicate?) the lowest level index set in front of the track where the data reside. This to avoid seek, the idea was that the higher level index blocks would be buffered in storage. But, who cares/who has time nowadays to get that last bit of performance improvement. - our own beloved VM has one function not working on FBA... Please guess The x-link part of CSE needs CKD. The locking mechanism doesn't need Reserve/Release. With one, complex, I/O the XLINK SW is able to test if a cylinder is free for e.g. a R/W LINK and if so, mark it as being used. Kind of TestAndSwap. Impossible on FBA I've been told. 2009/3/9 David L. Craig > > On Sun, Mar 08, 2009 at 02:10:24PM -0400, Richard Troth wrote: > > > > ECKD (today) is an IBM hardware solution for a software problem. > > Originally, CKD exposed not only counts and keys (thus the acronym) > > but more significantly tracks and records. NO ONE but MVS (and TPF) > > has a firm requirement for that. What I mean is that CP and VSE can > > at least tolerate a lack of tracks and records. (They can run from > > IPL to shutdown on things like SAN.) More significantly, CMS, Linux, > > and Solaris (or UTS or AIX or USS) explicitly THROW AWAY the track > > and record semantics that our precious storage subsystems worked so > > hard to present on the channel. They can't use it! They just care > > about the data on the disk, not its geometry. > > Are you implying VSE VSAM KSDS files do not utilize CKD > architecture and/or there is no net performance advantage > to that in this day and age? Maybe I need to look at the > effort to migrate to 3370... > > -- > > May the LORD God bless you exceedingly abundantly! > > Dave Craig > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > "'So the universe is not quite as you thought it was. > You'd better rearrange your beliefs, then. > Because you certainly can't rearrange the universe.'" > > --from _Nightfall_ by Asimov/Silverberg -- Kris Buelens, IBM Belgium, VM customer support
Re: Must be Friday: Mainframe USBs!
Shall I plead a tiny bit for CKD? - VSAM has the ability to store (replicate?) the lowest level index set in front of the track where the data reside. This to avoid seek, the idea was that the higher level index blocks would be buffered in storage. But, who cares/who has time nowadays to get that last bit of performance improvement. - our own beloved VM has one function not working on FBA... Please guess The x-link part of CSE needs CKD. The locking mechanism doesn't need Reserve/Release. With one, complex, I/O the XLINK SW is able to test if a cylinder is free for e.g. a R/W LINK and if so, mark it as being used. Kind of TestAndSwap. Impossible on FBA I've been told. 2009/3/9 David L. Craig > > On Sun, Mar 08, 2009 at 02:10:24PM -0400, Richard Troth wrote: > > > > ECKD (today) is an IBM hardware solution for a software problem. > > Originally, CKD exposed not only counts and keys (thus the acronym) > > but more significantly tracks and records. NO ONE but MVS (and TPF) > > has a firm requirement for that. What I mean is that CP and VSE can > > at least tolerate a lack of tracks and records. (They can run from > > IPL to shutdown on things like SAN.) More significantly, CMS, Linux, > > and Solaris (or UTS or AIX or USS) explicitly THROW AWAY the track > > and record semantics that our precious storage subsystems worked so > > hard to present on the channel. They can't use it! They just care > > about the data on the disk, not its geometry. > > Are you implying VSE VSAM KSDS files do not utilize CKD > architecture and/or there is no net performance advantage > to that in this day and age? Maybe I need to look at the > effort to migrate to 3370... > > -- > > May the LORD God bless you exceedingly abundantly! > > Dave Craig > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > "'So the universe is not quite as you thought it was. > You'd better rearrange your beliefs, then. > Because you certainly can't rearrange the universe.'" > > --from _Nightfall_ by Asimov/Silverberg -- Kris Buelens, IBM Belgium, VM customer support
Re: Must be Friday: Mainframe USBs!
The 3090 had a complete 4331 for a support processor. Jeffry A. Kennedy Certco,Inc jkenn...@certcoinc.com 608-270-2385 -Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:ib...@listserv.uark.edu] On Behalf Of Edward M Martin Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 10:42 AM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: Must be Friday: Mainframe USBs! I believe that the 3090 or something similar. It has been awhile since the CE and I talked about devices. Ed Martin Aultman Health Foundation 330-588-4723 ext 40441 -Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:ib...@listserv.uark.edu] On Behalf Of Schuh, Richard Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 11:22 AM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: Must be Friday: Mainframe USBs! Which ones would those have been? Our 360/50 used punched mylar cards. Any kind of disk that was available at the time would have been physically too large to fit in the frame :-) Regards, Richard Schuh > Why not FBA? > > Oh, seems to me that some of the older high strength CPU's > used FBA devices to hold the microcode. > > Ed Martin > Aultman Health Foundation > 330-588-4723 > ext 40441
Re: Must be Friday: Mainframe USBs!
The 308x had a FBA device for the support processor to use. Wasn't customer accessible, though. I remember helping a CE replace one once when it failed on a 3081D. Messy. The MAP ran for tens of pages. On 3/9/09 11:42 AM, "Edward M Martin" wrote: I believe that the 3090 or something similar. It has been awhile since the CE and I talked about devices.
Re: Must be Friday: Mainframe USBs!
I'll take "What are 3090s?" for $100, Alex. As I recall, their VM-lite hypervisor (was it already called PR/SM?) used 3310s. I don't think 308x's did, but I'm not sure. Don't get me started about the time the outsourcing company I worked for agreed to migrate a 9370 VM/VSE customer onto a 3090 system, with no consideration of, no awareness of, 9336s not being CKD devices. Nick L'Ardent On 3/9/2009 10:22 AM, Schuh, Richard wrote: Which ones would those have been? Our 360/50 used punched mylar cards. Any kind of disk that was available at the time would have been physically too large to fit in the frame :-) Why not FBA? Oh, seems to me that some of the older high strength CPU's used FBA devices to hold the microcode.
Re: Must be Friday: Mainframe USBs!
I believe that the 3090 or something similar. It has been awhile since the CE and I talked about devices. Ed Martin Aultman Health Foundation 330-588-4723 ext 40441 -Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:ib...@listserv.uark.edu] On Behalf Of Schuh, Richard Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 11:22 AM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: Must be Friday: Mainframe USBs! Which ones would those have been? Our 360/50 used punched mylar cards. Any kind of disk that was available at the time would have been physically too large to fit in the frame :-) Regards, Richard Schuh > Why not FBA? > > Oh, seems to me that some of the older high strength CPU's > used FBA devices to hold the microcode. > > Ed Martin > Aultman Health Foundation > 330-588-4723 > ext 40441
Re: Must be Friday: Mainframe USBs!
Which ones would those have been? Our 360/50 used punched mylar cards. Any kind of disk that was available at the time would have been physically too large to fit in the frame :-) Regards, Richard Schuh > Why not FBA? > > Oh, seems to me that some of the older high strength CPU's > used FBA devices to hold the microcode. > > Ed Martin > Aultman Health Foundation > 330-588-4723 > ext 40441
Re: Must be Friday: Mainframe USBs!
Hello, I am not sure that he implied that but the FBA idea was FORCEd from VSE because MVS/OS could not handle it. Removing FBA would make VSE more z/OS like. 3310, 3370, 9336 are all FBA. FBA eliminated the conversion problem, and IMHO was faster access. Migration to larger devices was just done. I believe the S36, S38, and the AS400 all use FBA. z/VM virtual Disk is VFB-512. Why not FBA? Oh, seems to me that some of the older high strength CPU's used FBA devices to hold the microcode. Ed Martin Aultman Health Foundation 330-588-4723 ext 40441 -Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:ib...@listserv.uark.edu] On Behalf Of David L. Craig Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 10:42 AM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: Must be Friday: Mainframe USBs! On Sun, Mar 08, 2009 at 02:10:24PM -0400, Richard Troth wrote: > > ECKD (today) is an IBM hardware solution for a software problem. > Originally, CKD exposed not only counts and keys (thus the acronym) > but more significantly tracks and records. NO ONE but MVS (and TPF) > has a firm requirement for that. What I mean is that CP and VSE can > at least tolerate a lack of tracks and records. (They can run from > IPL to shutdown on things like SAN.) More significantly, CMS, Linux, > and Solaris (or UTS or AIX or USS) explicitly THROW AWAY the track > and record semantics that our precious storage subsystems worked so > hard to present on the channel. They can't use it! They just care > about the data on the disk, not its geometry. Are you implying VSE VSAM KSDS files do not utilize CKD architecture and/or there is no net performance advantage to that in this day and age? Maybe I need to look at the effort to migrate to 3370... -- May the LORD God bless you exceedingly abundantly! Dave Craig - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - "'So the universe is not quite as you thought it was. You'd better rearrange your beliefs, then. Because you certainly can't rearrange the universe.'" --from _Nightfall_ by Asimov/Silverberg
Re: Must be Friday: Mainframe USBs!
On Sun, Mar 08, 2009 at 02:10:24PM -0400, Richard Troth wrote: > > ECKD (today) is an IBM hardware solution for a software problem. > Originally, CKD exposed not only counts and keys (thus the acronym) > but more significantly tracks and records. NO ONE but MVS (and TPF) > has a firm requirement for that. What I mean is that CP and VSE can > at least tolerate a lack of tracks and records. (They can run from > IPL to shutdown on things like SAN.) More significantly, CMS, Linux, > and Solaris (or UTS or AIX or USS) explicitly THROW AWAY the track > and record semantics that our precious storage subsystems worked so > hard to present on the channel. They can't use it! They just care > about the data on the disk, not its geometry. Are you implying VSE VSAM KSDS files do not utilize CKD architecture and/or there is no net performance advantage to that in this day and age? Maybe I need to look at the effort to migrate to 3370... -- May the LORD God bless you exceedingly abundantly! Dave Craig - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - "'So the universe is not quite as you thought it was. You'd better rearrange your beliefs, then. Because you certainly can't rearrange the universe.'" --from _Nightfall_ by Asimov/Silverberg
Re: Must be Friday: Mainframe USBs!
Richard Troth wrote: There ... and I said it all without using a certain 3-letter acronym. But it was very difficult wasn't it? I bow to your self control... :) -- Rich Smrcina VM Assist, Inc. Phone: 414-491-6001 Ans Service: 360-715-2467 http://www.linkedin.com/in/richsmrcina Catch the WAVV! http://www.wavv.org WAVV 2009 - Orlando, FL - May 15-19, 2009
Re: Must be Friday: Mainframe USBs!
Florian Bilek wrote: > Would be interesting to format an USB device in ECKD mode. Is this > possible ??? ;-) > > Probably that goes only together with an FICON attached USB-Reader > costing only 250.000$ allowing for ONE USB stick at a time. Great ;-) > > -- > Best regards > > Florian Bilek No, it is not possible. Thank Poughkeepsie. It WOULD be possible if the burden of ECKD emulation were on z/OS. But that shift has again been deferred. [details and opinion follow - you have been warned] ECKD (today) is an IBM hardware solution for a software problem. Originally, CKD exposed not only counts and keys (thus the acronym) but more significantly tracks and records. NO ONE but MVS (and TPF) has a firm requirement for that. What I mean is that CP and VSE can at least tolerate a lack of tracks and records. (They can run from IPL to shutdown on things like SAN.) More significantly, CMS, Linux, and Solaris (or UTS or AIX or USS) explicitly THROW AWAY the track and record semantics that our precious storage subsystems worked so hard to present on the channel. They can't use it! They just care about the data on the disk, not its geometry. When 3390s were new, someone said it would be the last of that generation of disk. (They were really big platters!) I didn't understand. Now I do: Storage was moving away from physical platters and towards "just data" that could be managed more effectively. Look at a contemporary disk frame ... it's all a bunch of SCSI disks with nothing but blocks. The physical disks are sliced up and/or concatenated (and RAIDed, of course) to provide a volume of the exact size you require. And then that silly ECKD stuff is applied. What a waste. If z/OS wants tracks and records and counts and keys, then let z/OS convert the raw storage. It's absurd that the rest of us have to UNDO that effort. Do you see the overhead? The physical media is pre-blocked. ECKD semantics are applied by the storage subsystem. And then the operating system has to discard the ECKD semantics ... even in z/OS. (Not for all, but for much. It's true!) Once upon a time, there was the idea that z/OS would talk to a SAN. If that had happened, this emulation pain would have shifted, and the access methods within z/OS would have been turned upside-down, direct I/O would have been to the raw data (theoretically USS and possibly VSAM would have become more efficient) and geometric access would have been performed at a higher level, entirely the responsibility of z/OS. That which is now done in the storage subsystem would have been done within the z/OS operating system, a SW solution for this SW requirement. And why would they do this? Does the Poughkeepsie crowd actually *want* to run on flat disk like HP, Microsoft, and Sun? Hardly. They're just out of space in ECKD addressing. Now with the advent of "big ECKD" (EAV), the requirement has quietly gone away. But the need for z/OS to play nice with SAN was never truly a z/OS requirement. It's about interoperability. It's a DATA CENTER requirement. If other platforms could use "geometric" disk (CKD), fine. But they can't. And I for one would be on the bandwagon if ECKD helped anything (on the other platforms), but it doesn't. So if you want your mainframe to use the same disk everyone else uses, you'll have to fight for it. EAV has provided another way to marginalize the mainframe. But, "We believe in the interconnectedness of all things.". ECKD is for disk what motor generators were for power. We don't miss MGs and we won't miss ECKD. Today, there are two ways that you can run VM and/or Linux on other than ECKD: You can use SAN, but there are some remaining issues, I cannot lie to you, fond as I am of VM's SAN capability. You can also get 9336 (or something like it) from at least one storage vendor. Really! After searching for more than a decade, I found it last week in Austin. The particular storage subsystem can talk 9336 or 3370 to FICON while presenting the same volume on the SAN. Nice! That's interoperability. So ... ummm ... yeah. Your USB stick could be "formatted in ECKD mode" if it had an ECKD emulator layer. Odds are that it doesn't. And it would be useless on your PC if it were doing ECKD, not interoperable. There ... and I said it all without using a certain 3-letter acronym. -- R;
Re: Must be Friday: Mainframe USBs!
Would be interesting to format an USB device in ECKD mode. Is this possible ??? ;-) Probably that goes only together with an FICON attached USB-Reader costing only 250.000$ allowing for ONE USB stick at a time. Great ;-) -- Best regards Florian Bilek
Re: Must be Friday: Mainframe USBs!
3390 mod 3 characteristics. 3339 cyls, 15 trks/cyl, 58786 bytes/trk 2944296810 bytes 2875289.853515625 k-bytes 2807.9002475738525390625m-bytes 2.74209008552134037017822265625 g-bytes 3390 mod 9 characteristics. 10017 cyls, 15 trks/cyl,58786 bytes/trk 8832890430 bytes 8625869.560546875 k-bytes 8423.7007427215576171875m-bytes 8.22627025656402111053466796875 g-bytes VSAM calls up to 10017 cylinders BIG-3390 Up to 65,520 cylinders are FAT-3390. And somewhere are larger cylindered customized-sized 3390 using the Catch all of LVS (Large volume support) Ed Martin Aultman Health Foundation 330-588-4723 ext 40441 -Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:ib...@listserv.uark.edu] On Behalf Of Schuh, Richard Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 12:26 PM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: Must be Friday: Mainframe USBs! A 3390 formatted in 4K blocks is about 2.5G. Regards, Richard Schuh > -Original Message- > From: The IBM z/VM Operating System > [mailto:ib...@listserv.uark.edu] On Behalf Of Nick Laflamme > Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 9:08 AM > To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU > Subject: Must be Friday: Mainframe USBs! > > On 3/6/2009 10:32 AM, Schuh, Richard wrote: > > What size does it have to be to become a fist? There are USB flash > > memory drives that are at least 64GB. > > > > I've been working with "open systems" for too long; I can't > figure out what that would be in CKD terms. A 3390-243? > > (Can someone ask at the cluster closing, please?) >
Re: Must be Friday: Mainframe USBs!
A 3390 formatted in 4K blocks is about 2.5G. Regards, Richard Schuh > -Original Message- > From: The IBM z/VM Operating System > [mailto:ib...@listserv.uark.edu] On Behalf Of Nick Laflamme > Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 9:08 AM > To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU > Subject: Must be Friday: Mainframe USBs! > > On 3/6/2009 10:32 AM, Schuh, Richard wrote: > > What size does it have to be to become a fist? There are USB flash > > memory drives that are at least 64GB. > > > > I've been working with "open systems" for too long; I can't > figure out what that would be in CKD terms. A 3390-243? > > (Can someone ask at the cluster closing, please?) >
Must be Friday: Mainframe USBs!
On 3/6/2009 10:32 AM, Schuh, Richard wrote: What size does it have to be to become a fist? There are USB flash memory drives that are at least 64GB. I've been working with "open systems" for too long; I can't figure out what that would be in CKD terms. A 3390-243? (Can someone ask at the cluster closing, please?)
