Re: Using DVD to restore an existing z/VM?
Encryption should be the responsibility of the backup/restore product. IBM already has encryption hardware on the machine. VM:Backup exploits it today. I don't know about other products. Dennis "A good plan, violently executed now, is better than a perfect plan next week.." -- General George S. Patton -Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:ib...@listserv.uark.edu] On Behalf Of Mike Walter Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 10:30 To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: [IBMVM] Using DVD to restore an existing z/VM? Having read multiple media reports of companies losing tapes containing confidential information, are you sure you just want to put your DASD backups on a physically-tiny thumb drive? I lost my first 16G thumb drive within months even though I was pretty careful with it (having paid out of pocket for it a year ago). Most people don't have 3480, 3490, or 3590 tape drives sitting around to read company data. Most people _do_ have PC's with USB ports, even though trying to figure out whatever format a 3390 dump might be in would be quite a challenge. But it would still be a matter of getting your security officer to sign off on something s/he doesn't really understand. If you still think it's a good idea (and it *does* have merit), "do you want encryption with that order"?:-) Any other considerations to discuss before making recommendations to IBM? Mike Walter Hewitt Associates Any opinions expressed herein are mine alone and do not necessarily represent the opinions or policies of Hewitt Associates. "Michael Coffin" Sent by: "The IBM z/VM Operating System" 06/19/2009 11:49 AM Please respond to "The IBM z/VM Operating System" To IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU cc Subject Re: Using DVD to restore an existing z/VM? I think what we really need is the ability of the HMC to use a USB as an input device (e.g. be able to IPL a standalone program off of a USB stick, and have a program like DDR use the USB stick as an input or output device), and perhaps the ability of z/VM to read AND write to the USB so that we can write iplable decks and DDR content there. If a vendor (IBM or otherwise) wants to further exploit that capability with products that make it easier, so much the better. But the "basic" ability to do I/O to the device via the HMC and OS are what I'd be looking for. -Mike -Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:ib...@listserv.uark.edu] On Behalf Of Alan Altmark Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 10:56 AM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: Using DVD to restore an existing z/VM? On Friday, 06/19/2009 at 08:27 EDT, "McKown, John" wrote: > And, from what I've seen, IBM does not like to give some things out to > customers because it "freezes" what IBM can do in the future. Backward > compatability is wonderful for customers and a royal pain for vendors as it can > impact innovation. I wonder when/if Linux will ever suffer from the "can't > change that, the customers would revolt" syndrome. That's true, but it goes even deeper. Backup/Restore is "vendor space," including IBM's own offerings. We can't do things in the base product or give away things that would negatively affect the value of such software. But that's all stuff that gets sorted out when the actual requirement is analyzed by product planners and we understand what technology is needed and how it is best delivered. Alan Altmark z/VM Development IBM Endicott The information contained in this e-mail and any accompanying documents may contain information that is confidential or otherwise protected from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient of this message, or if this message has been addressed to you in error, please immediately alert the sender by reply e-mail and then delete this message, including any attachments. Any dissemination, distribution or other use of the contents of this message by anyone other than the intended recipient is strictly prohibited. All messages sent to and from this e-mail address may be monitored as permitted by applicable law and regulations to ensure compliance with our internal policies and to protect our business. E-mails are not secure and cannot be guaranteed to be error free as they can be intercepted, amended, lost or destroyed, or contain viruses. You are deemed to have accepted these risks if you communicate with us by e-mail.
Re: Using DVD to restore an existing z/VM?
I was thinking something like a little (I have one on my pc, but for the mainframe I would want a bigger one)USB hub that connects to the M-F via a ficon channel. Each port would be addressed on a CCUU bassis. In other words the USB's would look like tape drives.. -Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:ib...@listserv.uark.edu] On Behalf Of Michael Coffin Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 11:49 AM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: Using DVD to restore an existing z/VM? I think what we really need is the ability of the HMC to use a USB as an input device (e.g. be able to IPL a standalone program off of a USB stick, and have a program like DDR use the USB stick as an input or output device), and perhaps the ability of z/VM to read AND write to the USB so that we can write iplable decks and DDR content there. If a vendor (IBM or otherwise) wants to further exploit that capability with products that make it easier, so much the better. But the "basic" ability to do I/O to the device via the HMC and OS are what I'd be looking for. -Mike -Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:ib...@listserv.uark.edu] On Behalf Of Alan Altmark Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 10:56 AM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: Using DVD to restore an existing z/VM? On Friday, 06/19/2009 at 08:27 EDT, "McKown, John" wrote: > And, from what I've seen, IBM does not like to give some things out to > customers because it "freezes" what IBM can do in the future. Backward > compatability is wonderful for customers and a royal pain for vendors as it can > impact innovation. I wonder when/if Linux will ever suffer from the "can't > change that, the customers would revolt" syndrome. That's true, but it goes even deeper. Backup/Restore is "vendor space," including IBM's own offerings. We can't do things in the base product or give away things that would negatively affect the value of such software. But that's all stuff that gets sorted out when the actual requirement is analyzed by product planners and we understand what technology is needed and how it is best delivered. Alan Altmark z/VM Development IBM Endicott
Re: Using DVD to restore an existing z/VM?
I understand your concern about the 'loose-ability' of such a small footprint storage device. I would not recommend to my client the use of a ny USB storage device for DR without encryption of some amount of the data. My own idea for using it would be to carry the backups of our CORE systems t hat would be used at the hotsite to restore the rest of the user data from encrypted tapes. Each member of the mainframe DR team would have a copy s o that they could head to the hotsite as soon as possible. We could get the re and get this part of the system restored before ANY of our encrypted tape s could get there from the offsite storage vendor. /Tom Kern On Fri, 19 Jun 2009 12:29:37 -0500, Mike Walter wrote: >Having read multiple media reports of companies losing tapes containing >confidential information, are you sure you just want to put your DASD >backups on a physically-tiny thumb drive? I lost my first 16G thumb dri ve >within months even though I was pretty careful with it (having paid out of >pocket for it a year ago). > >Most people don't have 3480, 3490, or 3590 tape drives sitting around to >read company data. Most people _do_ have PC's with USB ports, even thou gh >trying to figure out whatever format a 3390 dump might be in would be >quite a challenge. But it would still be a matter of getting your >security officer to sign off on something s/he doesn't really understand . > >If you still think it's a good idea (and it *does* have merit), "do you >want encryption with that order"?:-) > >Any other considerations to discuss before making recommendations to IBM ? > >Mike Walter >Hewitt Associates
Re: Using DVD to restore an existing z/VM?
There may be concern with customer confidential data using these methods - but the primary purpose (or at least the one I'm after) is to restore a working and customized z/VM system. While you could probably use the results of all this to backup/restore other things -- I wouldn't think that would normally be done thru the HMC... we're talking 'install' and 'DR' here - not backup/archival solutions for data. (at least I'm not) But again - the security policy is up to the customer and shouldn't really be a consideration for the requirement. Coming from exposure to a plethora of Linux 'live CD' distros and others that are USB stick only.. and things like Knoppix and SystemRescue -- the concept of having a bootable, full functioning OS from DVD/USB - with the ability to use utilities to backup/restore partitions, etc -- I'm spoiled. I want that same ability on the mainframe. Give me a rescue system on conventional devices (dvd/usb) that everyone has -- now I can walk up to a tapeless z10 and restore a working and configured z/VM system from my other site without special equipment. Scott On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 11:29 AM, Mike Walter wrote: > Having read multiple media reports of companies losing tapes containing > confidential information, are you sure you just want to put your DASD > backups on a physically-tiny thumb drive? I lost my first 16G thumb drive > within months even though I was pretty careful with it (having paid out of > pocket for it a year ago). > > Most people don't have 3480, 3490, or 3590 tape drives sitting around to > read company data. Most people _do_ have PC's with USB ports, even though > trying to figure out whatever format a 3390 dump might be in would be > quite a challenge. But it would still be a matter of getting your > security officer to sign off on something s/he doesn't really understand. > > If you still think it's a good idea (and it *does* have merit), "do you > want encryption with that order"?:-) > > Any other considerations to discuss before making recommendations to IBM? > > Mike Walter > Hewitt Associates > Any opinions expressed herein are mine alone and do not necessarily > represent the opinions or policies of Hewitt Associates. > > > > > "Michael Coffin" > > Sent by: "The IBM z/VM Operating System" > 06/19/2009 11:49 AM > Please respond to > "The IBM z/VM Operating System" > > > > To > IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU > cc > > Subject > Re: Using DVD to restore an existing z/VM? > > > > > > > I think what we really need is the ability of the HMC to use a USB as an > input device (e.g. be able to IPL a standalone program off of a USB > stick, and have a program like DDR use the USB stick as an input or > output device), and perhaps the ability of z/VM to read AND write to the > USB so that we can write iplable decks and DDR content there. > > If a vendor (IBM or otherwise) wants to further exploit that capability > with products that make it easier, so much the better. But the "basic" > ability to do I/O to the device via the HMC and OS are what I'd be > looking for. > > -Mike > > -Original Message- > From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:ib...@listserv.uark.edu] On > Behalf Of Alan Altmark > Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 10:56 AM > To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU > Subject: Re: Using DVD to restore an existing z/VM? > > > On Friday, 06/19/2009 at 08:27 EDT, "McKown, John" > wrote: > > > And, from what I've seen, IBM does not like to give some things out to > > customers because it "freezes" what IBM can do in the future. Backward > > > compatability is wonderful for customers and a royal pain for vendors > as > it can > > impact innovation. I wonder when/if Linux will ever suffer from the > "can't > > change that, the customers would revolt" syndrome. > > That's true, but it goes even deeper. Backup/Restore is "vendor space," > > including IBM's own offerings. We can't do things in the base product > or > give away things that would negatively affect the value of such > software. > But that's all stuff that gets sorted out when the actual requirement is > > analyzed by product planners and we understand what technology is needed > > and how it is best delivered. > > Alan Altmark > z/VM Development > IBM Endicott > > > > > > > The information contained in this e-mail and any accompanying documents may > contain information that is confidential or otherwise protected from > disclosure. If you are not the intende
Re: Using DVD to restore an existing z/VM?
It would be nice if a z10 (or future machines) had several USB ports available to multiple LPARs and could be extended several hundred feet (l ike at a DR Vendor) so that users of different LPARs could manage the attachment/detachment of their own USB storage devices. /Tom Kern On Fri, 19 Jun 2009 12:49:04 -0400, Michael Coffin wrote: >I think what we really need is the ability of the HMC to use a USB as an >input device (e.g. be able to IPL a standalone program off of a USB >stick, and have a program like DDR use the USB stick as an input or >output device), and perhaps the ability of z/VM to read AND write to the >USB so that we can write iplable decks and DDR content there. > >If a vendor (IBM or otherwise) wants to further exploit that capability >with products that make it easier, so much the better. But the "basic" >ability to do I/O to the device via the HMC and OS are what I'd be >looking for. > >-Mike
Re: Using DVD to restore an existing z/VM?
Having read multiple media reports of companies losing tapes containing confidential information, are you sure you just want to put your DASD backups on a physically-tiny thumb drive? I lost my first 16G thumb drive within months even though I was pretty careful with it (having paid out of pocket for it a year ago). Most people don't have 3480, 3490, or 3590 tape drives sitting around to read company data. Most people _do_ have PC's with USB ports, even though trying to figure out whatever format a 3390 dump might be in would be quite a challenge. But it would still be a matter of getting your security officer to sign off on something s/he doesn't really understand. If you still think it's a good idea (and it *does* have merit), "do you want encryption with that order"?:-) Any other considerations to discuss before making recommendations to IBM? Mike Walter Hewitt Associates Any opinions expressed herein are mine alone and do not necessarily represent the opinions or policies of Hewitt Associates. "Michael Coffin" Sent by: "The IBM z/VM Operating System" 06/19/2009 11:49 AM Please respond to "The IBM z/VM Operating System" To IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU cc Subject Re: Using DVD to restore an existing z/VM? I think what we really need is the ability of the HMC to use a USB as an input device (e.g. be able to IPL a standalone program off of a USB stick, and have a program like DDR use the USB stick as an input or output device), and perhaps the ability of z/VM to read AND write to the USB so that we can write iplable decks and DDR content there. If a vendor (IBM or otherwise) wants to further exploit that capability with products that make it easier, so much the better. But the "basic" ability to do I/O to the device via the HMC and OS are what I'd be looking for. -Mike -Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:ib...@listserv.uark.edu] On Behalf Of Alan Altmark Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 10:56 AM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: Using DVD to restore an existing z/VM? On Friday, 06/19/2009 at 08:27 EDT, "McKown, John" wrote: > And, from what I've seen, IBM does not like to give some things out to > customers because it "freezes" what IBM can do in the future. Backward > compatability is wonderful for customers and a royal pain for vendors as it can > impact innovation. I wonder when/if Linux will ever suffer from the "can't > change that, the customers would revolt" syndrome. That's true, but it goes even deeper. Backup/Restore is "vendor space," including IBM's own offerings. We can't do things in the base product or give away things that would negatively affect the value of such software. But that's all stuff that gets sorted out when the actual requirement is analyzed by product planners and we understand what technology is needed and how it is best delivered. Alan Altmark z/VM Development IBM Endicott The information contained in this e-mail and any accompanying documents may contain information that is confidential or otherwise protected from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient of this message, or if this message has been addressed to you in error, please immediately alert the sender by reply e-mail and then delete this message, including any attachments. Any dissemination, distribution or other use of the contents of this message by anyone other than the intended recipient is strictly prohibited. All messages sent to and from this e-mail address may be monitored as permitted by applicable law and regulations to ensure compliance with our internal policies and to protect our business. E-mails are not secure and cannot be guaranteed to be error free as they can be intercepted, amended, lost or destroyed, or contain viruses. You are deemed to have accepted these risks if you communicate with us by e-mail.
Re: Using DVD to restore an existing z/VM?
Alan Altmark wrote: That's true, but it goes even deeper. Backup/Restore is "vendor space," including IBM's own offerings. We can't do things in the base product or give away things that would negatively affect the value of such software. But that's all stuff that gets sorted out when the actual requirement is analyzed by product planners and we understand what technology is needed and how it is best delivered. Alan Altmark z/VM Development IBM Endicott It looks to me like we are talking about 2 separate requirements. 1. Add and document the ability for VM to read and write to bootable DVD and USB drives. 2. Change the Backup/Restore products (both IBM and other vendors) to exploit the abilities added in requirement 1. Requirement #1 is a prerequisite for requirement #2. But, requirement #2 is the justification for requirement #1. -- Stephen Frazier Information Technology Unit Oklahoma Department of Corrections 3400 Martin Luther King Oklahoma City, Ok, 73111-4298 Tel.: (405) 425-2549 Fax: (405) 425-2554 Pager: (405) 690-1828 email: stevef%doc.state.ok.us
Re: Using DVD to restore an existing z/VM?
I think what we really need is the ability of the HMC to use a USB as an input device (e.g. be able to IPL a standalone program off of a USB stick, and have a program like DDR use the USB stick as an input or output device), and perhaps the ability of z/VM to read AND write to the USB so that we can write iplable decks and DDR content there. If a vendor (IBM or otherwise) wants to further exploit that capability with products that make it easier, so much the better. But the "basic" ability to do I/O to the device via the HMC and OS are what I'd be looking for. -Mike -Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:ib...@listserv.uark.edu] On Behalf Of Alan Altmark Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 10:56 AM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: Using DVD to restore an existing z/VM? On Friday, 06/19/2009 at 08:27 EDT, "McKown, John" wrote: > And, from what I've seen, IBM does not like to give some things out to > customers because it "freezes" what IBM can do in the future. Backward > compatability is wonderful for customers and a royal pain for vendors as it can > impact innovation. I wonder when/if Linux will ever suffer from the "can't > change that, the customers would revolt" syndrome. That's true, but it goes even deeper. Backup/Restore is "vendor space," including IBM's own offerings. We can't do things in the base product or give away things that would negatively affect the value of such software. But that's all stuff that gets sorted out when the actual requirement is analyzed by product planners and we understand what technology is needed and how it is best delivered. Alan Altmark z/VM Development IBM Endicott
Re: Using DVD to restore an existing z/VM?
On Friday, 06/19/2009 at 08:27 EDT, "McKown, John" wrote: > And, from what I've seen, IBM does not like to give some things out to > customers because it "freezes" what IBM can do in the future. Backward > compatability is wonderful for customers and a royal pain for vendors as it can > impact innovation. I wonder when/if Linux will ever suffer from the "can't > change that, the customers would revolt" syndrome. That's true, but it goes even deeper. Backup/Restore is "vendor space," including IBM's own offerings. We can't do things in the base product or give away things that would negatively affect the value of such software. But that's all stuff that gets sorted out when the actual requirement is analyzed by product planners and we understand what technology is needed and how it is best delivered. Alan Altmark z/VM Development IBM Endicott
Re: Using DVD to restore an existing z/VM?
At some point that may work. I don't think that I'll be speaking "out of school" by relating that when I was trying to install Linux from the HMC as part of the z/VM 5.4.0 E.S.P. I tried using a 16G flash drive via the HMC's USB port. No joy. I could see the directories and files, but not open the files. At that time the z10 GA1 HMC drivers only supported (read: tested and supported) three different flash drives, the largest at that time was only 1G. "System z Hardware Management Console Operations Guide Version 2.10.1" (SC28-6873-00) updated May 5, 2009 reports: The supported USB flash memory drives are: - IBM USB 2.0 High Speed Memory Key - 128MB (part number 22P9229) - Lenovo USB 2.0 Memory Key - 512MB (part number 40Y8596) - Lenovo USB 2.0 Security Memory Key - 1GB (part number 41U5118)." Good luck restoring even a single 3390-3 only 1G at a time. But it has been almost a year since then -- perhaps the HMC USB drivers have been updated to support larger flash drives. IBM sells some very large flash drives now, you'd think that the latest, greatest monster IBM mainframe server would support flash drives that little laptops can handle, right? :-) Let us know how you fare with larger flash drives. Be sure that your actually try to open the files, not just see the directory list of them. Mike Walter Hewitt Associates Any opinions expressed herein are mine alone and do not necessarily represent the opinions or policies of Hewitt Associates. "Mike At HammockTree" Sent by: "The IBM z/VM Operating System" 06/19/2009 09:12 AM Please respond to "The IBM z/VM Operating System" To IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU cc Subject Re: Using DVD to restore an existing z/VM? A couple of "interesting" aspects of this "boot from the USB" idea The z10, which is where the "boot from DVD" is supported, comes with a HMC that has both the DVD and a couple of USB ports. USB is supported as an inport/export device for configuration files. The HMC runs Linux and Linux treats the DVD and USB in a very similar manner (from the user perspective). So "conceptually"(!) it should be a relatively simple move from booting from DVD to booting from USB. With 16, 32, and even 64 GB USB flash drives these days, there are all kinds of possibilities for having very portable systems. Mike Hammock ----- Original Message - From: "Edward M Martin" To: Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 10:02 AM Subject: Re: Using DVD to restore an existing z/VM? I am voting for the USB D/R tool. What type of requirement do we have to create? Ed Martin Aultman Health Foundation 330-363-5050 ext 35050 -Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:ib...@listserv.uark.edu] On Behalf Of Huegel, Thomas Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 10:01 PM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: Using DVD to restore an existing z/VM? I am liking the USB port idea even more. How cool would it be to walk into a D/R site with just a couple of thumb drives in your pocket to restore your whole z/VM system? -Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System on behalf of Alan Altmark Sent: Thu 6/18/2009 5:16 PM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: Using DVD to restore an existing z/VM? On Thursday, 06/18/2009 at 03:45 EDT, Dave Jones wrote: > Alan, I said to simply document the procedurenot that the procedure > itself was simple:-) I know what you said. :-) The procedure for building a DVD image includes tools that you don't have, so you would then ask for the tools. But the procedure and tools have value. And down the rabbit hole we go I KNOW how this story ends. :-) > Maybe the good Dr. Boyes could write up and submit the requirement to > WAVV? You could, but I would like to gently suggest that it isn't going to happen. If you want to be able to have a system that is recoverable from the DVD drive, then that is the requirement to levy. And since it is a function of backup/DR, it properly belongs to the backup products. But keep in mind that its all part and parcel of the larger requirement to get z/VM to support storage devices other than SCSI disk, ECKD, FBA, and 3590 tape. Alan Altmark z/VM Development IBM Endicott The information contained in this e-mail and any accompanying documents may contain information that is confidential or otherwise protected from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient of this message, or if this message has been addressed to you in error, please immediately alert the sender by reply e-mail and then delete this message, including any attachments. Any dissemination, distribution or other use of the contents of this message by anyone other than the intended recipient is strictly prohibited. All messages sent to and from this e-mail address may be monitored a
Re: Using DVD to restore an existing z/VM?
>> I am liking the USB port idea even more. How cool would it be >> to walk into a D/R site with just a couple of thumb drives in >> your pocket to restore your whole z/VM system? > I wonder if FlexCUB from Fundamental Software would allow this? > It is an Escon attached PC device which can emulate mainframe > disk and tape. Of course, then the DR vendor has to have one around. We are currently testing that exact procedure using our FLEX box. First we backup both VM and VSE data to faketape. We put them into a separate folder to identify what needs to go offsite. Then we run a utility written by John Weis at T3 that will encrypt and zip the faketape files and copy them over to a USB drive. Preliminary tests show we can take around 11-12 gb of faketape files and encrypt/zip them into about 3 gb on the USB drive in about 45 minutes. It is pretty slick, but then, we don't have all that much data to worry about either. As far as a FlexCUB, if you are running version 7, the faketape files can be automatically encrypted as they are being created. Ed Zell Illinois Mutual Life (309) 636-0107 . CONFIDENTIALITY: This e-mail (including any attachments) may contain confidential, proprietary and privileged information, and unauthorized disclosure or use is prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, notify the sender and delete this e-mail from your system.
Re: Using DVD to restore an existing z/VM?
>> I am liking the USB port idea even more. How cool would it be to walk >> into a D/R site with just a couple of thumb drives in your pocket to >> restore your whole z/VM system? > I wonder if FlexCUB from Fundamental Software would allow this? > It is an Escon attached PC device which can emulate mainframe disk and > tape. Of course, then the DR vendor has to have one around. We are currently testing that exact procedure using our FLEX box. First we backup both VM and VSE data to faketape. We put them into a separate folder to identify what needs to go offsite. Then we run a utility written by John Weis at T3 that will encrypt and zip the faketape files and copy them over to a USB drive. Preliminary tests show we can take around 11-12 gb of faketape files and encrypt/zip them into about 3 gb on the USB drive in about 45 minutes. It is pretty slick, but then, we don't have all that much data to worry about either. As far as a FlexCUB, if you are running version 7, the faketape files can be automatically encrypted as they are being created. Ed Zell Illinois Mutual Life (309) 636-0107 . CONFIDENTIALITY: This e-mail (including any attachments) may contain confidential, proprietary and privileged information, and unauthorized disclosure or use is prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, notify the sender and delete this e-mail from your system.
Re: Using DVD to restore an existing z/VM?
A couple of "interesting" aspects of this "boot from the USB" idea The z10, which is where the "boot from DVD" is supported, comes with a HMC that has both the DVD and a couple of USB ports. USB is supported as an inport/export device for configuration files. The HMC runs Linux and Linux treats the DVD and USB in a very similar manner (from the user perspective). So "conceptually"(!) it should be a relatively simple move from booting from DVD to booting from USB. With 16, 32, and even 64 GB USB flash drives these days, there are all kinds of possibilities for having very portable systems. Mike Hammock - Original Message - From: "Edward M Martin" To: Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 10:02 AM Subject: Re: Using DVD to restore an existing z/VM? I am voting for the USB D/R tool. What type of requirement do we have to create? Ed Martin Aultman Health Foundation 330-363-5050 ext 35050 -Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:ib...@listserv.uark.edu] On Behalf Of Huegel, Thomas Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 10:01 PM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: Using DVD to restore an existing z/VM? I am liking the USB port idea even more. How cool would it be to walk into a D/R site with just a couple of thumb drives in your pocket to restore your whole z/VM system? -Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System on behalf of Alan Altmark Sent: Thu 6/18/2009 5:16 PM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: Using DVD to restore an existing z/VM? On Thursday, 06/18/2009 at 03:45 EDT, Dave Jones wrote: Alan, I said to simply document the procedurenot that the procedure itself was simple:-) I know what you said. :-) The procedure for building a DVD image includes tools that you don't have, so you would then ask for the tools. But the procedure and tools have value. And down the rabbit hole we go I KNOW how this story ends. :-) Maybe the good Dr. Boyes could write up and submit the requirement to WAVV? You could, but I would like to gently suggest that it isn't going to happen. If you want to be able to have a system that is recoverable from the DVD drive, then that is the requirement to levy. And since it is a function of backup/DR, it properly belongs to the backup products. But keep in mind that its all part and parcel of the larger requirement to get z/VM to support storage devices other than SCSI disk, ECKD, FBA, and 3590 tape. Alan Altmark z/VM Development IBM Endicott
Re: Using DVD to restore an existing z/VM?
I am voting for the USB D/R tool. What type of requirement do we have to create? Ed Martin Aultman Health Foundation 330-363-5050 ext 35050 -Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:ib...@listserv.uark.edu] On Behalf Of Huegel, Thomas Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 10:01 PM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: Using DVD to restore an existing z/VM? I am liking the USB port idea even more. How cool would it be to walk into a D/R site with just a couple of thumb drives in your pocket to restore your whole z/VM system? -Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System on behalf of Alan Altmark Sent: Thu 6/18/2009 5:16 PM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: Using DVD to restore an existing z/VM? On Thursday, 06/18/2009 at 03:45 EDT, Dave Jones wrote: > Alan, I said to simply document the procedurenot that the procedure > itself was simple:-) I know what you said. :-) The procedure for building a DVD image includes tools that you don't have, so you would then ask for the tools. But the procedure and tools have value. And down the rabbit hole we go I KNOW how this story ends. :-) > Maybe the good Dr. Boyes could write up and submit the requirement to > WAVV? You could, but I would like to gently suggest that it isn't going to happen. If you want to be able to have a system that is recoverable from the DVD drive, then that is the requirement to levy. And since it is a function of backup/DR, it properly belongs to the backup products. But keep in mind that its all part and parcel of the larger requirement to get z/VM to support storage devices other than SCSI disk, ECKD, FBA, and 3590 tape. Alan Altmark z/VM Development IBM Endicott
Re: Using DVD to restore an existing z/VM?
> -Original Message- > From: The IBM z/VM Operating System > [mailto:ib...@listserv.uark.edu] On Behalf Of Huegel, Thomas > Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 9:01 PM > To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU > Subject: Re: Using DVD to restore an existing z/VM? > > I am liking the USB port idea even more. How cool would it be > to walk into a D/R site with just a couple of thumb drives in > your pocket to restore your whole z/VM system? I wonder if FlexCUB from Fundamental Software would allow this? It is an Escon attached PC device which can emulate mainframe disk and tape. Of course, then the DR vendor has to have one around. -- John McKown Systems Engineer IV IT Administrative Services Group HealthMarkets(r) 9151 Boulevard 26 * N. Richland Hills * TX 76010 (817) 255-3225 phone * (817)-961-6183 cell john.mck...@healthmarkets.com * www.HealthMarkets.com Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message may contain confidential or proprietary information. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. HealthMarkets(r) is the brand name for products underwritten and issued by the insurance subsidiaries of HealthMarkets, Inc. -The Chesapeake Life Insurance Company(r), Mid-West National Life Insurance Company of TennesseeSM and The MEGA Life and Health Insurance Company.SM
Re: Using DVD to restore an existing z/VM?
> David also proposed, I thought, writing a requirement that we publish > the > procedure, as you suggested. THAT is what I was suggesting is a > non-starter. Not guilty, your honor. I was speculating that you could provide a PXEboot image that could boot from another source over the network, and let the other source worry about delivering the bits into the LPAR. Judging from the layout of that DVD, I don't think I own sufficient black chickens and assorted vestal virgins that seem to be needed to create such an animal. > Requirements against backup products would be more productive, I think. Since I seem to be the Designated Requirement Writing Dude at the moment, if someone really thinks this is useful, let's talk about this offlist. -- db
Re: Using DVD to restore an existing z/VM?
> -Original Message- > From: The IBM z/VM Operating System > [mailto:ib...@listserv.uark.edu] On Behalf Of Alan Altmark > Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 5:17 PM > To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU > Subject: Re: Using DVD to restore an existing z/VM? > > I know what you said. :-) The procedure for building a DVD image > includes tools that you don't have, so you would then ask for > the tools. > But the procedure and tools have value. And down the rabbit hole we > go I KNOW how this story ends. :-) And, from what I've seen, IBM does not like to give some things out to customers because it "freezes" what IBM can do in the future. Backward compatability is wonderful for customers and a royal pain for vendors as it can impact innovation. I wonder when/if Linux will ever suffer from the "can't change that, the customers would revolt" syndrome. > > Alan Altmark > z/VM Development > IBM Endicott -- John McKown Systems Engineer IV IT Administrative Services Group HealthMarkets(r) 9151 Boulevard 26 * N. Richland Hills * TX 76010 (817) 255-3225 phone * (817)-961-6183 cell john.mck...@healthmarkets.com * www.HealthMarkets.com Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message may contain confidential or proprietary information. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. HealthMarkets(r) is the brand name for products underwritten and issued by the insurance subsidiaries of HealthMarkets, Inc. -The Chesapeake Life Insurance Company(r), Mid-West National Life Insurance Company of TennesseeSM and The MEGA Life and Health Insurance Company.SM
Re: Using DVD to restore an existing z/VM?
On Thursday, 06/18/2009 at 06:50 EDT, Dave Jones wrote: > I'm confused, but so what else is new? :-) > You wrote in a previous e-mail: > > > The desire to have a DVD-based DR system would be a good requirement > > to levy against IBM Backup and Restore for z/VM. > > But then you state above that the (your) requirement I suggested David > Boyes submit via WAVV is a non-starterwhat am I missing here? David also proposed, I thought, writing a requirement that we publish the procedure, as you suggested. THAT is what I was suggesting is a non-starter. Requirements against backup products would be more productive, I think. Alan Altmark z/VM Development IBM Endicott
Re: Using DVD to restore an existing z/VM?
I am liking the USB port idea even more. How cool would it be to walk into a D/R site with just a couple of thumb drives in your pocket to restore your whole z/VM system? -Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System on behalf of Alan Altmark Sent: Thu 6/18/2009 5:16 PM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: Using DVD to restore an existing z/VM? On Thursday, 06/18/2009 at 03:45 EDT, Dave Jones wrote: > Alan, I said to simply document the procedurenot that the procedure > itself was simple:-) I know what you said. :-) The procedure for building a DVD image includes tools that you don't have, so you would then ask for the tools. But the procedure and tools have value. And down the rabbit hole we go I KNOW how this story ends. :-) > Maybe the good Dr. Boyes could write up and submit the requirement to > WAVV? You could, but I would like to gently suggest that it isn't going to happen. If you want to be able to have a system that is recoverable from the DVD drive, then that is the requirement to levy. And since it is a function of backup/DR, it properly belongs to the backup products. But keep in mind that its all part and parcel of the larger requirement to get z/VM to support storage devices other than SCSI disk, ECKD, FBA, and 3590 tape. Alan Altmark z/VM Development IBM Endicott
Re: Using DVD to restore an existing z/VM?
Hi, Alan. I'm confused, but so what else is new? :-) You wrote in a previous e-mail: > The desire to have a DVD-based DR system would be a good requirement > to levy against IBM Backup and Restore for z/VM. But then you state above that the (your) requirement I suggested David Boyes submit via WAVV is a non-starterwhat am I missing here? Alan Altmark wrote: Maybe the good Dr. Boyes could write up and submit the requirement to WAVV? You could, but I would like to gently suggest that it isn't going to happen. If you want to be able to have a system that is recoverable from the DVD drive, then that is the requirement to levy. And since it is a function of backup/DR, it properly belongs to the backup products. -- Dave Jones V/Soft www.vsoft-software.com Houston, TX 281.578.7544
Re: Using DVD to restore an existing z/VM?
On Thursday, 06/18/2009 at 03:45 EDT, Dave Jones wrote: > Alan, I said to simply document the procedurenot that the procedure > itself was simple:-) I know what you said. :-) The procedure for building a DVD image includes tools that you don't have, so you would then ask for the tools. But the procedure and tools have value. And down the rabbit hole we go I KNOW how this story ends. :-) > Maybe the good Dr. Boyes could write up and submit the requirement to > WAVV? You could, but I would like to gently suggest that it isn't going to happen. If you want to be able to have a system that is recoverable from the DVD drive, then that is the requirement to levy. And since it is a function of backup/DR, it properly belongs to the backup products. But keep in mind that its all part and parcel of the larger requirement to get z/VM to support storage devices other than SCSI disk, ECKD, FBA, and 3590 tape. Alan Altmark z/VM Development IBM Endicott
Re: Using DVD to restore an existing z/VM?
Alan, I said to simply document the procedurenot that the procedure itself was simple:-) Maybe the good Dr. Boyes could write up and submit the requirement to WAVV? Alan Altmark wrote: On Thursday, 06/18/2009 at 01:00 EDT, Dave Jones wrote: It sounds like what is needed here is for IBM to simply document the processes they used to create the evaluation edition of z/VM 5.3. I admit it would be handy to be able to make an IPL-able z/VM DVD as part of a DR plan. I have personally seen the procedure and there is nothing remotely "simple" about it. It is a hand-crafted glove (of rich, Corinthian leather) that is custom-fit to he CP nuc. The desire to have a DVD-based DR system would be a good requirement to levy against IBM Backup and Restore for z/VM. Alan Altmark z/VM Development IBM Endicott -- Dave Jones V/Soft www.vsoft-software.com Houston, TX 281.578.7544
Re: Using DVD to restore an existing z/VM?
> The desire to have a DVD-based DR system would be a good requirement to > levy against IBM Backup and Restore for z/VM. Wilder idea: how about a PXEboot based system? If the HMC could issue a PXEboot request for a particular LPAR, then you could set up a TFTP server on your choice of systems and use that to get a basic floor system with DDR, DSF, TCPIP and CMS PIPES running. It'd even be standards based, and would probably work for z/OS. 8-)
Re: Using DVD to restore an existing z/VM?
On Thursday, 06/18/2009 at 01:00 EDT, Dave Jones wrote: > It sounds like what is needed here is for IBM to simply document the > processes they used to create the evaluation edition of z/VM 5.3. I > admit it would be handy to be able to make an IPL-able z/VM DVD as part > of a DR plan. I have personally seen the procedure and there is nothing remotely "simple" about it. It is a hand-crafted glove (of rich, Corinthian leather) that is custom-fit to he CP nuc. The desire to have a DVD-based DR system would be a good requirement to levy against IBM Backup and Restore for z/VM. Alan Altmark z/VM Development IBM Endicott
Re: Using DVD to restore an existing z/VM?
It sounds like what is needed here is for IBM to simply document the processes they used to create the evaluation edition of z/VM 5.3. I admit it would be handy to be able to make an IPL-able z/VM DVD as part of a DR plan. Alan Altmark wrote: On Thursday, 06/18/2009 at 11:08 EDT, Scott Rohling wrote: That's an interesting idea.. I guess ideally I'm looking for something that IPLs a starter system from DVD with enough smarts to restore DDR images that are on the DVD to DASD. That would sure be a slick way to bring up a new z10 with an already customized, configured, etc zVM system - just like you would with tape/DDR. You dump the starter system along with your images to DVD (made bootable of course) .. boot it - answer a prompt for DASD addresses or what not - and sit back while your already built z/VM installs. There are no provisions in z/VM to build an installable DVD, a la the z/VM installation media DVD. The Evaluation Edition (EE) will save your customizations on the DVD, but the EE has no provision to (a) apply service, (b) write an updated system back on the DVD, or (c) write *your* data to the DVD. Alan Altmark z/VM Development IBM Endicott -- Dave Jones V/Soft www.vsoft-software.com Houston, TX 281.578.7544
Re: Using DVD to restore an existing z/VM?
On Thursday, 06/18/2009 at 11:08 EDT, Scott Rohling wrote: > That's an interesting idea.. I guess ideally I'm looking for something that > IPLs a starter system from DVD with enough smarts to restore DDR images that > are on the DVD to DASD. That would sure be a slick way to bring up a new z10 > with an already customized, configured, etc zVM system - just like you would > with tape/DDR. You dump the starter system along with your images to DVD > (made bootable of course) .. boot it - answer a prompt for DASD addresses or > what not - and sit back while your already built z/VM installs. There are no provisions in z/VM to build an installable DVD, a la the z/VM installation media DVD. The Evaluation Edition (EE) will save your customizations on the DVD, but the EE has no provision to (a) apply service, (b) write an updated system back on the DVD, or (c) write *your* data to the DVD. Alan Altmark z/VM Development IBM Endicott
Re: Using DVD to restore an existing z/VM?
That's an interesting idea.. I guess ideally I'm looking for something that IPLs a starter system from DVD with enough smarts to restore DDR images that are on the DVD to DASD. That would sure be a slick way to bring up a new z10 with an already customized, configured, etc zVM system - just like you would with tape/DDR. You dump the starter system along with your images to DVD (made bootable of course) .. boot it - answer a prompt for DASD addresses or what not - and sit back while your already built z/VM installs. I'm getting the feeling there's nothing that's gonna do this short of doing an install of z/VM and then perhaps uploading/restoring images :-( Scott On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 6:40 AM, Bruce Hayden wrote: > The z/VM evaluation edition is a fully functional and customizable z/VM > system that boots from DVD. It requires a z10 though. This usage is > probably not covered by the licensing terms and conditions - but I'm not > going to be the judge of that! Using it this way came up another time in a > discussion I was having with some people - it is an interesting thought on > how a tapeless system could be supported. > > > On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 8:15 PM, Scott Rohling wrote: > >> Gotcha - have done the same thing and it's very handy... but - I'm >> looking for a solution that doesn't require a running z/VM system..I >> want to restore the z/VM system from the DVD - much as when you do a z/VM >> install (which I assume does some type of image restore from images on the >> DVD?) ... >> >> Scott >> >> > -- > Bruce Hayden > Linux on System z Advanced Technical Support > IBM, Endicott, NY >
Re: Using DVD to restore an existing z/VM?
The z/VM evaluation edition is a fully functional and customizable z/VM system that boots from DVD. It requires a z10 though. This usage is probably not covered by the licensing terms and conditions - but I'm not going to be the judge of that! Using it this way came up another time in a discussion I was having with some people - it is an interesting thought on how a tapeless system could be supported. On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 8:15 PM, Scott Rohling wrote: > Gotcha - have done the same thing and it's very handy... but - I'm > looking for a solution that doesn't require a running z/VM system..I > want to restore the z/VM system from the DVD - much as when you do a z/VM > install (which I assume does some type of image restore from images on the > DVD?) ... > > Scott > > -- Bruce Hayden Linux on System z Advanced Technical Support IBM, Endicott, NY
Re: Using DVD to restore an existing z/VM?
There was a thread last August called "DDR'ing 3390 DASD To Remote Location". This was using DDR as a pipe stage. The download link is http://www.vm.ibm.com/download/packages/descript.cgi?DRPC During my test on a z/800 IFL engine a 3390 model 3 took 8 minutes to dump 600MB to my local laptop. Another option to look at. Hans -Original Message- From: The IBM z/VM Operating System [mailto:ib...@listserv.uark.edu] On Behalf Of Thomas Kern Sent: June 17, 2009 7:39 PM To: IBMVM@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU Subject: Re: Using DVD to restore an existing z/VM? I tested dumping a small (5 3390-m9) system using CMSDDR to CMS files, downloading them to a PC, burn to DVD. I took it to a DR exercise, uploaded the files, CMSDDR VMARC and VMARC MODULE to the vendor's floor system and restored my system, one volume at a time. Actual recovery time from sitting at the master console to completing IPL of my system was about 2.5 hours. If I was to do this as a real DR plan, I would have more of MY code on the DVD and prep the floor system so I could run all restores in parallel. /Tom Kern Scott Rohling wrote: > Anyone ever use the HMC DVD to write some type of image (DDR? ZIP? > whatever) file to restore an existing z/VM system? Not an install - but > a restore.. Wondering if this is a possibility if we don't have tape > drives on one site but want to restore an image from another site .. > something that would be able to restore a couple of 3390-9 images and > get us up and running.. > > Scott
Re: Using DVD to restore an existing z/VM?
Gotcha - have done the same thing and it's very handy... but - I'm looking for a solution that doesn't require a running z/VM system..I want to restore the z/VM system from the DVD - much as when you do a z/VM install (which I assume does some type of image restore from images on the DVD?) ... Scott On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 5:39 PM, Thomas Kern wrote: > I tested dumping a small (5 3390-m9) system using CMSDDR to CMS files, > downloading them to a PC, burn to DVD. I took it to a DR exercise, > uploaded the files, CMSDDR VMARC and VMARC MODULE to the vendor's floor > system and restored my system, one volume at a time. Actual recovery > time from sitting at the master console to completing IPL of my system > was about 2.5 hours. If I was to do this as a real DR plan, I would have > more of MY code on the DVD and prep the floor system so I could run all > restores in parallel. > > /Tom Kern > > Scott Rohling wrote: > > Anyone ever use the HMC DVD to write some type of image (DDR? ZIP? > > whatever) file to restore an existing z/VM system? Not an install - but > > a restore.. Wondering if this is a possibility if we don't have tape > > drives on one site but want to restore an image from another site .. > > something that would be able to restore a couple of 3390-9 images and > > get us up and running.. > > > > Scott >
Re: Using DVD to restore an existing z/VM?
I tested dumping a small (5 3390-m9) system using CMSDDR to CMS files, downloading them to a PC, burn to DVD. I took it to a DR exercise, uploaded the files, CMSDDR VMARC and VMARC MODULE to the vendor's floor system and restored my system, one volume at a time. Actual recovery time from sitting at the master console to completing IPL of my system was about 2.5 hours. If I was to do this as a real DR plan, I would have more of MY code on the DVD and prep the floor system so I could run all restores in parallel. /Tom Kern Scott Rohling wrote: > Anyone ever use the HMC DVD to write some type of image (DDR? ZIP? > whatever) file to restore an existing z/VM system? Not an install - but > a restore.. Wondering if this is a possibility if we don't have tape > drives on one site but want to restore an image from another site .. > something that would be able to restore a couple of 3390-9 images and > get us up and running.. > > Scott
Using DVD to restore an existing z/VM?
Anyone ever use the HMC DVD to write some type of image (DDR? ZIP? whatever) file to restore an existing z/VM system? Not an install - but a restore.. Wondering if this is a possibility if we don't have tape drives on one site but want to restore an image from another site .. something that would be able to restore a couple of 3390-9 images and get us up and running.. Scott
