Re: Software Freedom in education (was Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?)
* Erica Frank [2022-05-13 21:32]: > The biggest impediment to getting free software used on campuses (and > in the business world) is the lack of beginner-level support for > switching from Windows or Mac to a free OS. Installing an operating system is simply NOT for beginner. Your best option for beginners is to buy hardware with installed free operating system. The campaign Upgrade from Windows is availabe for that purpose: https://www.fsf.org/windows It points to free software distributions: https://www.gnu.org/distros/free-distros.en.html Each of them have their forums, mailing lists, IRC, more or less free support for users to switch to new system. > The problem with multiple Linux (and similar) setups, each adapted > for different specific needs, is that the average Windows user has > no idea how to pick one, and installation is often followed by > problems like "this laptop can no longer connect to the internet > until you download a set of drivers for it which you'll need to > do on another machine, and then transfer in." Multiple-Linux setups does not sound as a beginner problem. However, would you have some specific issue at hand, I could tell you how and where to report it, if I cannot resolve it myself. > Tech support for newbie problems is often downright hostile. "If you > don't know how to use a command line, just go back to Windows." That is generalization based on unnamed person's opinion. Free software distributions are there abiding by policies on how to solve issues of users. Your statement above is so far not relevant to those free software distributions. I have not seen not even one time that some person would answer that way. In fact, one of policies is not to drive people to proprietary systems. Maybe you have asked it on some website not relevant to GNU project or FSF. > Alternately, the solutions offered are couched in technical language > that require several followup questions like "how would I find out if I > have that permission?" and "I don't know what those settings are, where > do I find them?" Statement is general, strives towards blaming, without constructive improvement proposal. For technical questions you should expect technical answers. > And if they ask on Stack Exchange or Stack Overflow, newbie > questions are often faced with reactions like "question closed" > followed by a link to another question that they do not understand > as similar to theirs. The reactions to complaints about this are > usually "We're not hostile; we just don't want to waste time. Learn > to ask better questions." Those websites are not related to FSF or GNU project or free software distributions. Your general fury on various communities cannot possibly be solved on Libreplanet mailing list. > That might be fine for beginning coders. It is not fine for high school > students who are just trying to have a functional computer that does > web browsing, document editing, and maybe a bit of gaming. The end > result is not going to be "this person studies the software and comes > back with better questions"; it's going to be "I guess I'll switch back > to Windows." That some people will remain on proprietary OS is understandable, and that more people will switch is also provable by statistics, as there is every day more and more GNU/Linux users. Dissatisfaction on your side does not at all represent global movement, unspoken a fact. https://findly.in/how-many-linux-users-are-there/ > As long as switching to a free OS comes with a 3+ week self-directed > training period of "google for answers to 'why isn't this basic > thing working like I expect it to?'" very few people are going to > switch - or at least, very few of them will switch and stay. That is your opinion. I cannot relate to it, it is general, blaming, and does not represent anyone's true or real world experience. > (Insisting "hey you should use duckduckgo or startpage instead of > google" will not result in more people converting to free software.) That is tangential issue. Though nobody forbids you to use Google, I can't see where is the real problem on your side. > And that applies to other free software as well. The benefits of > switching from MS Office to LibreOffice have to be couched as > something other than "you won't be supporting an evil megacorp and > you won't be handing them all your user data." Because for most > people, those are non-issues, and certainly not worth the hassle of > relearning office software and dealing with the lack of features > they've come to expect. (If anyone knows a free-software equivalent > of Acrobat Pro or InDesign, I'd love to hear about it. And every few > years, I install LibreOffice and see if it'll cover how I use Word; > it does not.) (It would cover how I use Excel and PPT, but I don't > see the value in using those without switching the whole > suite. Especially since my job insists on the MS Suite.) Oh, now I get it. 🤗 Well... there are many ways
Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?
* p_newsletters/libreplanet--- via libreplanet-discuss [2022-05-12 22:42]: > I myself have been interested about freedom of software almost 15 > years. This interests me a lot and I found myself numerous times > spending plenty of hours in fsf.org just going deep in the rabbit > hole. However, this can't be expected from a "non-tech" user, a.k.a > the large part of the population, who indeed they'd be interested > about regaining freedom but are greeted with a comprehensive and > overwhelming amount of info. Users who come to any website, may see just the peak of the iceberg of knowledge presented. That knowledge is comprehensive is rather good and speaks of quality. That knowledge may be overwhelming is understandable, as new words, terms, they may be the main obstacle in understanding any subject. If you wish to explain any page better of send suggestions, see on https://www.fsf.org/ website at the bottom how to contact FSF and tell them about it. If it is so or not, we can't really tell, as Your personal view is subjective, rather than objective. My subjective viewpoint is that FSF website was never overwhelming, it is comprehensive which I find positive, and I wish it would be more comprehensive. It is translated in many languages. That viewpoint is subjective shows the fact that there are so many contributors, members of the FSF, people who donate money. That is shown in the financial reports. It also shows that large number of people do understand messages conveyed through FSF website. Financial report is objective, it tells of the real world events, not just personal impressions. > I talk about fs to many of my peers and then I refer them to fsf.org > to learn more. The result, lack of engagement and retention from my > peers with the site. To me this isn't a problem of the user. That is generalization. When I have made examples how I talk to people, I have given two names and explained it. To how many people did you talk? Lack of engagement -- what would this mean? Not every person that you bring to any website will start engaging on the website neither in the projects website is offering. What kind of specific retention did you experience? Before any blame, let us first identify what exactly is the problem. Then if it is really a website problem, did you report it to webmaster of FSF? > My take is that, fsf.org conveys a lot of info, but not > effectively. Less is more, even in the education field. Notice that > I am not suggesting deleting info, but better summarize and display. Make your suggestions specific and report to webmasters. I can see the menu: About Campaigns Licensing Membership Resources Community Donate Shop Search === Is there anything wrong with the menu? How would you better summarize it please? Do you see on the bottom of every page full summary? How would you make the summary? > I think fsf.org could benefit from better UX design. Does UX means User Experience? Whatever it means, what is "better"? Can you propose specific improvements? > In contradiction with my text, for me the fsf's page is great. But > again, I am a tech-interested person and don't represent the larger > amount of internet users. I wish to see more constructive criticism, not just blaming on imaginary failures -- while in the same time we can read objective financial reports and that FSF functions just well. Every organization may improve. If you wish to propose improvements, do them. Provide the page that gives that what you want -- and propose to FSF those changes. When people develop Emacs Lisp they propose changes, patches, new programs, they may be accepted or rejected, but changes are pretty much specific. Try providing specific improvements or point out specifically to what you mean exactly. Try minimizing generalizations. Further, you are free to distribute information from FSF pages, you can make your own FSF-like page, look at licensing of pages, and provide the UX, and summaries in the way how you think it is good -- then let us know, let us review it, and propose it to FSF. Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?
* Thomas Lord [2022-05-13 03:49]: > > And I wish to add that I think I offend some FSF > fans by saying I think the underlying cause is that > the FSF has somehow lost sight of two critical goals: > > 1. Education for the general public. You say it "lost sight" -- that is again spreading of FUD, Fears, Uncertainties and Doubts. FSF Financial Information — Free Software Foundation — Working together for free software https://www.fsf.org/about/financial The audited financial statements are made haven thanks, by professional, and not by some troll. If FSF would lose its sight to work on its purposes, it would lose its status of being a non-profit, tax free organization. > 2. Promoting (through action, through help) far greater > intentional, direct use of libre software (including > the more widespread exercise of all four freedoms -- > not merely the recitation of why they are good). And that is what FSF does. But if you wish to make it stronger intentional, how about a project proposal from your side? In other words, you wish to apply for a position in the FSF as you are complaining with its management. Make a project proposal, try to improve something, rather than just talking without objective substance. > So I see something like this need of some people to break > free of twitter and wonder why the free software movement isn't > all over such opportunities, with resources, and coordination, > and support. GNU project promotes decentralized social networks since long time. GNU social https://www.gnu.org/software/social/ then from there on, other people developed various other software like Pleroma, Mastodon, etc. Before making a statement, please, make a research. I was there, and I have installed GNU Social and people use it. Did you install one instance yourself? I was there when Mastodon came, but I was using GNU Social, later I have installed Pleroma instance and people use it. Did you install one instance yourself? Do something about it strongly intentional yourself. Then your FUD questions will become more substantial. > And then I look at the FSF, who I think should be working on that, > and get depressed about "whatever happened to the free software > movement"? Please don't blame FSF for your personal problems. Depressions are solved elsewhere. Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?
* Thomas Lord [2022-05-12 21:34]: > > Jean, > > > Thomas, you again spread Fears, Uncertainties and Doubts - FUD. I > > cannot take your statements seriously. > > That's fine. How is that fine? Promote freedom, not FUD on this mailing list. > I am curious if you think that the ~40 year old Free Software > Movement is doing an effective job of spreading the actual practice > of software freedom, and even the awareness of the option and what > it means for human freedom? It should be obvious that today we have largest number of free software users ever and that number of free software packages today is at its maximum and just becoming bigger and bigger. It seems that your question wish to introduce new doubts. But what information is it based on? If you have such doubts, I can't help much, that may mean you are not following it in the same way how I see it or follow the development. I am following the movement since more than 20 years, and have studied its past from writings and mailing lists. And do you maybe wish to imply that some other movement rather than free software movement is to do better job to spread the message about freedom in computing? Or you got some logical problem there maybe? > And if I want to point busy city officials or others who could > benefit from changing their practices to some web page that will > help them help themselves with that, smoothly and efficiently, what > page would you suggest? What educational materials will help > someone like that? I am sorry, but I cannot see the truth in your questions. Yes, there is a lot of materials on Internet that may help people raise awareness. Though your question is meant to undermine that simple fact that information about free software is widely available. Example: https://www.fsf.org/about/what-is-free-software > How will potential users find those materials if I say simply > "check out fsf.org"? By reading? > What steps has FSF taken in recent decades that have helped > with this kind of problem? Is the "free software ladder" > concept meant to do this (that isn't my understanding of it > so far)? Ehm, what is the problem exactly? Is the problem single one, just in your mind and subjective, or is it more something objective, please tell us that we can understand it. > Similarly, say, a college student not in computer science or > anything close to that? I am not a native English speaker, I can't understand what you mean there. Am I now supposed to find the verb for the above sentence or to "say" "a college student" -- I get confused with it. > or a professor who may be tempted to require students to use unfree > software -- where can they quickly and easily check for a better > option? Sorry, I do not get the above sentence as well. If you are asking how to give to somebody idea what is free software, and I meet a college student, then I may tell how I do it, so I would explain him in simple words about software freedoms. Same for college professor. I have no problems in explaining what is free software to just anybody. Practically in my life I explain to people of all types about free software. This I do all the time at any kind of conversation with people when it comes to computer or software. I have explained it yesterday to Lillian in Kampala, Uganda (high school), I have explained it before yesterday to Ms. Nagasha L. (in few days to graduate internation business) and have given her instructions how to install free software on her mobile phone. Nagasha is next day on the research project using free software tools. We discussed how my XMPP network is decentralized and its expense paid by myself, and she quickly got the point. I said, why should we use software like Whatsapp where we do not know what this software does to our data, our contacts, on our phone -- when there is free software which we can inspect, modify and install on own server, there was no problem talking about it and understanding it, with somebody who did not study computers, but rather business. I have explained about free software just to everybody I got in touch with. Those people have shown understanding. Many of my friends quickly switched to free software, this was in Germany. They got well aware of the license and freedom. I have been supporting my friends with tips, settings, configurations, that is how I know it. We visited each other. Here is one list that may show how OS based on Linux kernel spreads in the world: List of Linux adopters - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Linux_adopters The more there are users (larger number) of any OS based on GPL license, the more awareness of free software will be spread (this will be smaller number). Free software licenses as developed by RMS and friends were the key to spreading of free software. Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/ __
Re: People calling the GPLs 'evil licenses' - action plan?
Just a thought about rhetorical approach and wording: the phrase
"proprietary fork" could be useful. Also, center the viewpoint of
prospective contributors.
"A permissive license allows software companies or other entities to
make a proprietary fork of a project. This means someone (Developer A)
could generously contribute code, then Microsoft (say) could take the
project, add their own enhancements, and release a competing version.
Developer A contributed expecting she would benefit from others'
contributions, yet she is walled off from Microsoft's contributions.
She's being played, basically. We want to choose a license that
encourages participation, and we think guaranteeing access to future
contributions without the possibility of a proprietary fork best serves
that.
"It's obvious why proprietary software companies prefer that projects
use permissive licenses, but when picking a license, I'm not
particularly concerned with what Google, Microsoft, or Apple prefer, or
what best integrates with their software stack."
I add this second bit because I think there's "word on the street" that
permissive licenses are more popular and preferred by more, um,
entities. But this is like gossip ("people are saying... "). Trace this
to origin and I think we would find a few big players loudly and
consistently slandering strong licenses.
Jim Garrett
On May 17, 2022 10:15:15 PM EDT, Aaron Wolf
wrote:
FWIW, as a link anyone can use, I put together this some years ago, aiming to be
fair and neutral enough while advocating copyleft:
[1]https://wiki.snowdrift.coop/about/licenses
That's probably the ideal link to share in this case IMHO
On May 17, 2022 2:27:30 PM PDT, Dennis Payne wrote
:
Having one person consider GPL an evil license isn't a big deal. I
wouldn't waste a lot of time trying to convert him. Nor would I send
them a link to long essay explaining the situation. wolftune's
argument
is the simplest. However since you already sent him an offensive
article, I doubt any argument will have much effect at this point.
On Tue, 2022-05-17 at 23:52 +0800, andrew via libreplanet-discuss
wrote:
Andrew Would
[2]https://git.andrewyu.org/pygame-multiplayer/ suffice to
indicate extending an existing Expat (MIT) project into a project
based on the original work but licensed under the (A)GPL?
Andrew ugh, forgot to place the agpl in it
ChrisWarrickask a lawyer
ChrisWarrick(and consider a less evil license)
Andrew Not asking for legal advice, just general practice
Andrew And I don't consider the GPLs to be evil, I use them for
bigger projects while I use public domain (unlicense) for smaller
ones
ChrisWarricklicenses are legal stuff, so you are asking for
legal
advice
Andrew asking stuff like 'does the US have any laws' is legal but
isn't asking for legal advice imo
ChrisWarrickyour question is “am I interpeting and using the
license correctly”
Andrew i guess
Andrew and why do you think the gpl is evil?
ChrisWarrickGPL, and especially AGPL, makes your code less free
than MIT/BSD
nedbat Andrew: this is a classic debate
Andrew ChrisWarrick: PM me, thanks
Andrew because I want to prevent people from proprietizing it
ChrisWarrickbut at the same time, you’re benefitting from
Brandon
Nguyen’s work
Andrew yes
ChrisWarrickbut he isn’t able to benefit from yours
Andrew they could use the AGPL/GPL, and they could ask me for an
exception
Andrew the greater danger is people taking expat code and
proprietizing it, hindering free use altogether
ChrisWarrickwhat is wrong with proprietary use though?
Andrew i'll get back to you with an article tomorrow, thanks on
your
thoughts
Andrew meanwhile,
[3]https://lukesmith.xyz/articles/why-i-use-the-gpl-and-not-cuck-lic
enses
explains part of it
Andrew dont agree to all of it, i see a lot of use of permissive
licenses, but not for the project working on now
ChrisWarrickdo you have a less offensive article?
Andrew I'm working on that
ChrisWarrickokay
I hope this is clear enough on what I need ... well, how do I
explain
the GPL to them?
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s
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-- Sent from /e/ Mail.
References
1. https://wiki.snowdrift.coop/about/licenses
2.
