Re: Software Freedom in education (was Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?)
With partners, I am currently trying to start a "digital commons movement", if you will, a community where people learn together and rebuild a new collaborative society based on partnership of the equals, and I stress this term equal partnership - zero hierarchy, zero "come back later when you know know how to ask better questions", zero knowledge worshipping, zero founder, zero leadership - initially focused on the digital domain to bootstrap the movement. In such a community, yes, any question, suggestion or statement will be welcome! They are not only welcome but will probably form the backbone of the society. Erica's really good points and many others we discussed here such as the twitter replacement, make me think that time is ripe for this. In the community I am thinking of, Free Software will be an important part but it will not be the end goal or the most dominant focus. Rather, Free Software will be a natural choice, because the software requirements of the community will require that kind of licensing as the bare minimum standard. But it won't be just married to Free Software, either. The software licensing is just a part its concern and it will also have discussions of how to take advantage of proprietary systems. IPhone maybe a totally locked system but it doesn't stop us from accessing homepages built with Free Software. Windows is proprietary but WSL2 makes available a Linux subsystem on top of it. Gradually transitioning from Proprietary to Free is a perfectly good strategy, in my opinion. If I may add, what else is a proprietary system good for, other than to make the transition to the Free? If anyone reading this is interested, you can contact me personally 😄 - let's make it happen! -Yasu +81.90.6523.2640 y...@yasuaki.com http://yasuaki.com On May 23, 2022, at 01:24, Jean Louis wrote: > > * Erica Frank [2022-05-19 22:30]: >> It's increasingly clear to me that the free software movement has little >> interest in outreach to the general non-coder/non-developer public, and >> this reply just reinforces my belief. > > That is not true. > > That is your personal impression, though it is not objectively true. > > Free software movement is really huge, large community. Many large > companies are inside of it, including Google, Redhat, Lenovo, > including Microsoft, and too many users and developers, so it is very > out of proportion to claim how "free software ovement" has "little > interest" in outreach to general public. > > We talk mostly of GNU system based on Linux kernel. > > GNU/Linux FAQ by Richard Stallman > https://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html > > But for those who refer to system incorrectly with "Linux" only, there > are many many online references guiding people to install GNU/Linux on > their computers. > > How to Install Linux > https://www.howtogeek.com/693588/how-to-install-linux/ > > Install Linux | Simple Guide For Installation of Linux in Windows > https://www.educba.com/install-linux/ > > How to Install Linux: 13 Steps (with Pictures) - wikiHow > https://www.wikihow.com/Install-Linux > > How to Install Linux on Any PC or Laptop > https://www.makeuseof.com/how-to-install-linux/ > > How to Install Linux | Operating Systems | Lenovo US > https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/faqs/operating-systems/how-to-install-linux/?orgRef=https%253A%252F%252Fduckduckgo.com%252F > > How to Download and Install Linux (Ubuntu) on Windows PC > https://www.guru99.com/install-linux.html > > How to install Linux step-by-step - Like Geeks > https://likegeeks.com/how-to-install-linux/ > > How to Install Linux (Ubuntu) on Windows 10 [Ultimate Guide 2022] > https://www.partitionwizard.com/partitionmagic/install-linux-on-windows-10.html > > How to Install Linux on a Mac : HelloTech How > https://www.hellotech.com/guide/for/how-to-install-linux-on-mac > > How to get started with Linux: A beginner’s guide > https://www.pcworld.com/article/427298/how-to-get-started-with-linux-a-beginners-guide.html > > How to install Linux - CNET > https://www.cnet.com/tech/computing/how-to-install-linux/ > > How to Install Linux from a USB Flash Drive - TechDim > https://www.techdim.com/how-to-install-linux/ > > How to Install Linux on Windows 10 : HelloTech How > https://www.hellotech.com/guide/for/how-to-install-linux-on-windows-10 > > Install WSL | Microsoft Docs > https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install > > How to Install Linux from ISO to Installed - Linux.com > https://www.linux.com/training-tutorials/how-install-linux-iso-installed/ > > How to install Linux in 3 steps | Opensource.com > https://opensource.com/article/21/2/linux-installation > > How to Install Ubuntu Linux on your Dell Computer | Dell US > https://www.dell.com/support/kbdoc/en-us/000131655/how-to-install-ubuntu-linux-on-your-dell-pc > > The Complete Beginner's Guide to Linux - Linux.com > https://www.linux.com/training-tutorials/complete-beginners-guide-linux/ > > ▷ Linux T
Re: Question of Aiding and Abetting Proprietary (or non-free) Software in GNU projects
I mentioned something similar in a Guix mailing list but my opinion is this, quoting what I heard from someone else: Ideas divide us but necessity unites us. If Free Software is indeed indispensable (which I think it is), then we do everything to fulfill it. I understand now that there are both optimists and pessimists regarding the mixed usage (and we haven't even talked about the hardware itself?) of Free and Non-Free. I am definately an optimist here but Is it possible to put these ideas aside as a matter of academic interest for those who have the time? Ironically as it may be, where there is an overwhelming majority of pessimists, the optimists who wish to openly discuss how to mix free and non-free are forced to create a separate community (which will welcome everyone, including the pessimists). -Yasu > On May 18, 2022, at 00:38, Andrew Yu via libreplanet-discuss > wrote: > > Hey Greg, I really disagree on this issue ... > > It is really easy, when a user requests for help using nonfree drivers > in Guix, to warn them about the dangers. This ensures that users are > indeed informed, and would seek hardware that works well with fully free > software in the future if they care (well, if we can't make them care > there isn't much we can do in any case). > > Users generally need a soft transition. Although in the best case we > would expressly and directly get a user to switch to something fully > free, many are incapable of transitioning at such immediacy. Many > people's jobs require nonfree software, and "get a better job" and/or > activism against such requirements, though nice, are hard and take a lot > of effort. Before these are met, it is much better for the user to be > on a mostly free system with minimal nonfree software than a mostly > nonfree system with minimal free software. The same goes for firmware, > though finding hardware that works well with free software is indeed > generally easier than getting rid of bad work/government requirements. > In any case, using nonfree software/firmware on an otherwise free system > is in my opinion much preferred to using a nonfree system. > > Although, I believe that "Emacs on Windows" and "Nonfree firmware in > Guix" should indeed be treated similarly and be kept sepeate from the > core community as it's not our core mission. > > -a (stealing greg-style signatures) > ___ > libreplanet-discuss mailing list > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss signature.asc Description: Binary data ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Question of Aiding and Abetting Proprietary (or non-free) Software in GNU projects
No, not at all, the whole point is to gather perspectives (positions, stance, "attitudes", whatever the appropriate noun) from various existing Free Software projects and hopefully, see the light. A comparative study, not particularly about Guix. (Although I was originally surprised and frustrated there). > If you have particular software problem then please write to their > authors or support groups of that particular software. > > If you have some problem with Guix, write to Guix people on IRC or > mailing list. > > -- > Jean > > Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: > https://www.fsf.org/campaigns > > In support of Richard M. Stallman > https://stallmansupport.org/ ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Question of Aiding and Abetting Proprietary (or non-free) Software in GNU projects
Sorry I have point this out... you see, your comments are adding examples of how proprietary systems can be harmful... But this in no way changes the nature of contradiction (using Emacs and Guix as convenient subjects for comparison) I have been mentioning, the main part of my question. -Yasu PS * I think the pros and cons of using proprietary systems are well understood, perhaps, especially amongst the subscribers of this mailing list. * It is worthy of mentioning as well, that the security argument may not be so convincing. If there is a nasty security bug in the hardware and the immediate fix comes from the manufacturer in a proprietary BLOB? > On May 17, 2022, at 22:48, lkcl wrote: > > On Tue, May 17, 2022 at 1:51 PM Yasuaki Kudo wrote: > >> - Guix runs on Linux, the unabridged with all the proprietary bits and >> pieces for the video card, wifi and all. The same comment as above... does >> not apply? Because if it runs on unmodified Linux and people choose to do >> so, it hurts the project of promoting Free Software! > > the exclusion of proprietary WIFI drivers does not make any sense until you > see these: > > * > https://securityaffairs.co/wordpress/84142/breaking-news/broadcom-wifi-driver-flaws.html > * https://thehackernews.com/2017/04/broadcom-wifi-hack.html > * > https://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonkelly/2021/09/18/apple-iphone-warning-security-wifi-ssid-new-iphone-hack/ > > which exposed LITERALLY BILLIONS of people to drive-by exploits > > in that context, how is placing the exact same proprietary drivers onto > a system *in any way* helping to promote Ethical Software principles? > > it's the total opposite, isn't it? it's directly exposing users to > harm, isn't it? > > not only that, but it also risks the actual developers from being hit with > a Class Action Lawsuit precisely because they exposed users to harm, > isn't it? > > debian makes the compromise that they put all the "nonfree" parts > into a special repository "nonfree". you have to *actively* choose > whether to use that. > > ubuntu says "yeah f*** that, we're just gonna expose users to harm > because it's convenient" > > GNU says "ultimately, if the user really wants to use nonfree parts > that's entirely their choice, but we're not going to help them in any > way to do so". > > you *can* take an entirely Libre system and make it non-Libre. > it's software, after all. you have that choice. > > l. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Question of Aiding and Abetting Proprietary (or non-free) Software in GNU projects
So far, here is my own explanation of the apparent contradiction, based on the comments from people who kindly participated in our discussion: - GNU Emacs runs on Windows, a proprietary system. That's great because it can be used as an opportunity to invite people to the world of Free Software. - Guix runs on Linux, the unabridged with all the proprietary bits and pieces for the video card, wifi and all. The same comment as above... does not apply? Because if it runs on unmodified Linux and people choose to do so, it hurts the project of promoting Free Software! So the contradiction can be explained by the former based on Optimism and the latter, Pessimism? -Yasu > On May 17, 2022, at 21:05, lkcl wrote: > > On Tue, May 17, 2022 at 11:38 AM Yasuaki Kudo wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> I just wanted to follow up that I meant to ask: >> >> - Endorsing Free Software to be available on non-free systems, >> so as long as it is understood that it is an invitation to the fully Free >> System, not just partial - >> is this stance well shared among the members and participants of FSF/GNU >> projects? >> Or is it the case that Richard Stallman is rather uniquely more generous >> than others? > > i cannot speak for others - including Dr Stallman - only observe how > others behave. and i am having difficulty parsing what you wrote. > > bottom line is that: > > causing harm to Free Software should be the driving principle of > actions to avoid > > from there it should be pretty obvious that *each individual person > and their actions* > can be guaged as to whether it is good - or bad - for Free Software. > > you do not need me, or anyone else, to tell you that. > > a "stance" is also completely irrelevant to that, and i do not believe it to > be helpful or useful to consider "stances". > > there is the GNU Maintainers documentation, there is the FSF documentation > you and everyone else is entirely at liberty to choose *for yourself* whether > to > use it as a guide to your actions - or not. > > l. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Question of Aiding and Abetting Proprietary (or non-free) Software in GNU projects
Hi, I just wanted to follow up that I meant to ask: - Endorsing Free Software to be available on non-free systems, so as long as it is understood that it is an invitation to the fully Free System, not just partial - is this stance well shared among the members and participants of FSF/GNU projects? Or is it the case that Richard Stallman is rather uniquely more generous than others? Sorry I should have been clearer. -Yasu > On May 17, 2022, at 18:54, lkcl wrote: > > On Tue, May 17, 2022 at 2:00 AM Yasuaki Kudo wrote: >> >> If this is the case, a few more follow-up questions: >> >> - Is this attitude widely shared among the participants of FSF or GNU >> projects? > > "attitude" is a very strong / loaded word, it is making me hesitate to answer > "yes or no". > > there is a goal: that goal is the combination of Ethical behaviour and > principles > applied to Software usage and development. > > the *advice* of - or more like the documentation behind - the GNU Project > and of the Free Software Foundation (which is very different from an > *attitude*) > is to promote that combination of Ethical behaviour and principles as applied > to Software usage and development. > > people can have a "bad" or a "good" attitude whilst also still respecting > (or disrespecting) those principles. i've seen that happen. > >> - Are there GNU projects other than Guix, in which helping people with >> special >> needs for their proprietary systems, by purposefully discussing and sharing >> the >> knowhow, is shunned - perhaps with some of the participants even declaring >> to leave the project unless it is? 😅 > > Dr Stallman's perspective is amazingly clear and very respectful. > what i have seen him do is to make it clear what the goal of the > GNU Project is (to promote the combination of Ethical behaviour > in the form of Software), and to *very respectfully* redirect anyone > wishing to *disregard* or undermine that goal to move their discussion > elsewhere. > > in the version of the GNU Maintainers documentation that i was > helping to edit, it gives advice here on how to respectfully deal with > this situation. it does *NOT* imply "go be a complete dickhead and > smash people's opinions into the floor because they want to use > nonfree software" because by doing so you are, yourself, basically > being a dickhead and undermining Free Software as a result. > > in circumstances where people are being dickheads, chances are high > that anyone who left, and then had their system hacked (or it becomes > unstable / unusable) because they used nonfree software, would go, > >"shit, i should have listened to those people who told me of the > consequences of using nonfree software..." > > at which point there are *two* possible paths for the thoughts in their > head: > >1) "... but they were such disrespectful dickheads that i am > never going back even though it would be beneficial for me" > > or: > >2) "... and they were so respectful i think i'll go back sheepishly > because from their behaviour when i *wasn't* listening to them, > i have confidence that they won't attack me or try to undermine >me" > > you see how that works? > > l. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Question of Aiding and Abetting Proprietary (or non-free) Software in GNU projects
Hi Jean! So my original question of the seemingly different attitudes toward making it clear and easy for people who want to run Free on Non-Free on (or with) software remains, and I am excited to get more clarification! > You seem to have an opinion that community should talk about > proprietary software even if it is exclusively not about proprietary > software. Why do you have that urge to enforce a subject which is > clearly not the goal of the community? I think a little more nuanced description is in order. So there are GNU projects that do mention (talk about) proprietary systems such as Windows, make it available on them, and so on, as we have seen in responses. Now, people from such projects that make the software available on proprietary systems - are they "enforcing a subject which is not the goal of the community?" Might it be the case that Guix community will happily discuss how to enable the 'careless Linux' (if I may say so, instead of 'regular', for that with proprietary BLOBs), so as long as there are periodic notices, enticing them to find the Free alternatives? -Yasu ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Question of Aiding and Abetting Proprietary (or non-free) Software in GNU projects
If this is the case, a few more follow-up questions: - Is this attitude widely shared among the participants of FSF or GNU projects? - Are there GNU projects other than Guix, in which helping people with special needs for their proprietary systems, by purposefully discussing and sharing the knowhow, is shunned - perhaps with some of the participants even declaring to leave the project unless it is? 😅 -Yasu > On May 17, 2022, at 03:27, lkcl wrote: > > (apologies i am using a really quirky libre mail client, this might not > go as expected) >> On 22/05/16 06:10PM, Yasuaki Kudo wrote: >> * Emacs runs on Windows. Instructions and reasons are stated clearly >> (as you quoted) > a couple months back i helped Dr Stallman review the gnu maintenance > docs, and it answers this question. > * software that runs on both free and nonfree OSes is advised as > perfectly fine i.e. the fact that the software being developed is > "Libre" is the priority. > * software that ONLY runs on nonfree OSes or where the functionality is > damaged, DRM'd, relying on nonfree networked or paywalled logins or > proprietary services, or where that functionality is just plain > nonexistent on the free OS is NOT fine. > basically anything that encourages or entices people to *remain* on the > nonfree OS (because of missing or degraded functionality if the Libre > Software is run on a Free OS) is not in the least bit okay. > but if people choose (or have no choice but) to use a nonfree OS, > that's not your problem, at least they are using Libre Software. > a good example there would be VLC which i have installed on every > device in the house, some of which was bought against my advice and > without my consent or knowledge [with my money]. > at least using VLC on those devices does not result in files being > deleted. > l. > ___ > libreplanet-discuss mailing list > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Question of Aiding and Abetting Proprietary (or non-free) Software in GNU projects
Now I think it is becoming clear that the main point of my question is indeed this seeming contradiction: >> * Emacs runs on Windows. Instructions and reasons are stated clearly >> (as you quoted) > > Which I am indeed questioning why it is handled by GNU, too. > >> * Guix OS technically runs on normal, unqualified Linux Kernel (not just >> Linux-Libre). However, >> it is not "advertised" (the verb seemingly preferred by the community) >> and even the discussion thereof is shunned. -Yasu PS1 Thank you for technical corrections. 😄 (To move away from Linux-Libre, all that's needed [as you mentioned, nonguix, for example] is a config change though - I know it because I practice it myself) PS2 Regarding the technical wording of what is Linux, I have seen so many people going into various details of what it means But I still think, albeit without much understanding of the technicalities, the basic fact of the matter is: - Linux-Libre exists so that unaccountable (meaning no source code, not Free Software) binary drivers are removed - Linux, as opposed to above, does include (although there might be further technical delineations of how driver files are packaged and given names) the Blob drivers ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Question of Aiding and Abetting Proprietary (or non-free) Software in GNU projects
Hi Andrew! > Can you elaborate on what technical knowhow is related to nonfree > software in Guix? > Oh this is quite simple - When someone installs a Guix OS, there is a high chance that vital components of the computer won't work (unless "work" includes severely hampered performance) And the chances are, all one needs to do to obtain the hardware manufacture's native performance is do is to use the regular Linux kernel package, with none the "de-blobbing" of LinuxLibre. (Aside from asking the manufacturer to provide the Free Software-based compilation mechanism for the required BLOB, something that may take many years, or forever) To use the regular Linux, all that's needed is to tweak the configuration of the Guix system. When people new to the system post questions along this line, on the Guix Help mailing list, the typical response is either via a direct personal email or some suggestions, short of the direct answer. When, out of frustration, one directly answers, he is greeted with notices around this being a GNU mailing list and such matters are not to be discussed. The contradiction I see is that: * Emacs runs on Windows. Instructions and reasons are stated clearly (as you quoted) * Guix OS technically runs on Linux (not just LibreLinux). However, it is not "advertised" (the verb seemingly preferred by the community) and even the discussion thereof is shunned. So I am still left wondering 😅 -Yasu >> We can always establish parallel communities and go it alone but it >> still leaves the commutation rift between the parallel and the >> original teams, sifting the efficient development for desired >> features. > Typically the people in the "parallel" communities also contribute back > to us, and the only main difference is they're (hopefully pragmatically) > enabling use of nonfree software; These people are welcome to take i.e. > general Guix knowledge and questions to the primary lists and leave > nonfree stuff on their lists (which are of less value to here anyways). > >> Having said this, I see that GNU Emacs works on Microsoft Windows?? >> How in the world is this done if the GNU's attitude is absolute zero >> tolerance of anything Proprietary? > Having nonfree software in an otherwise free operating system isn't the > same as porting free software to nonfree operating systems. (There are > people who could elaborate better than me on this issue.) > > Quoting Emacs's Website: >> The purpose of the GNU system is to give users the freedom that >> proprietary software takes away from its users. Proprietary operating >> systems (like other proprietary programs) are an injustice, and we aim >> for a world in which they do not exist. >> >> To improve the use of proprietary systems is a misguided goal. Our aim, >> rather, is to eliminate them. We include support for some proprietary >> systems in GNU Emacs in the hope that running Emacs on them will give >> users a taste of freedom and thus lead them to free themselves. > > ... which should explain it with fair clarity. > >> I wish to leave my sincere comment that in no way I am trying to >> create a hostile conversation - I just want to know the dynamics of >> these seemingly contradictory outcomes. For example, is Emacs for >> Windows indeed developed by a parallel, non-GNU-aligned community? > In most circumstances we assume discussion to be of kind origin, which I > indeed believe you are. > > -- > Andrew Yu > https://wew.andrewyu.org/ > ___ > libreplanet-discuss mailing list > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Question of Aiding and Abetting Proprietary (or non-free) Software in GNU projects
Hello! I have a sincere question concerning FSF (or GNU?)'s position on the subject. While I really like and use GNU Guix as my primary Linux OS, the integration of 'Proprietary' (as far as I know, even the regular Linux Kernel package with proprietary device drivers is considered proprietary - so Guix comes with LibreLinux) is considered so distasteful and against the protocol, thus the technical knowhow cannot be discussed in the mailing lists for Guix. We can always establish parallel communities and go it alone but it still leaves the commutation rift between the parallel and the original teams, sifting the efficient development for desired features. Having said this, I see that GNU Emacs works on Microsoft Windows?? How in the world is this done if the GNU's attitude is absolute zero tolerance of anything Proprietary? I wish to leave my sincere comment that in no way I am trying to create a hostile conversation - I just want to know the dynamics of these seemingly contradictory outcomes. For example, is Emacs for Windows indeed developed by a parallel, non-GNU-aligned community? -Yasu ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?
Oh man, I am so inspired to do this thing that I have been proposing for some time, including most recent discussions with friends around me! Together, we can start to compile a Free Software collection for the New (Ultimately Non-Exchanged-Based) Economy based on Commons. [1]https://youtu.be/i3jeKros4Yk Around 3:20 time mark, Friede, an economist, mentions the Free Software model. In more practical terms, I am trying to create with collaborators a Software Distribution (my personal preference would be as a GNU Guix channel) for worker cooperatives (companies based on one-worker-one vote instead of one-share-one-vote) that will include: - Free Software specifically written for the cooperatives. (say, a shared application framework) This could be just a pointer, instead of outright inclusion of code, as done in Guix/Nix - Knowhow documents - 'Business directory' for worker cooperatives - Integration tests for components that worker cooperatives wish to combine - Regular Office Hours for co-education and knowhow exchange Currently, many worker cooperatives in the ICT sector take software development contracts that may go like - "Hiring a developer with Experience in React and MonoDB"... This kind of contract is solely based on monetary exchange and it does not add much to the Commons other than just applying some open source software (almost in forms only and not in spirit) Instead, what we want to do is to develop a whole array of expertise in which the cooperative take the center stage - anyone who likes the system in this ecosystem will say, this Free Software system comes from that circle of worker cooperatives, let's hire someone from there! Another video clip I would like to share, around 17:00 mark [2]https://youtu.be/Hpdd97teGhM If you are also inspired, let's work together! -Yasu On May 12, 2022, at 05:05, Thomas Lord wrote: All the more reason why this is a valuable idea for an organization whose primary purpose is spreading education and real world use of libre software systems. Meanwhile, there is whatever the FSF is trying to do which is entirely unclear from their web site. This reminds of a few years back when I wanted to point city officials in Berkeley to some online resource where they could quickly learn about software freedom and about available software -- and I discovered that nothing on the FSF web site was at all adequate to this. -t On 2022-05-11 03:46, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote: Il 02/05/22 01:23, Thomas Lord ha scritto: Here, broadly, would be the technical infrastructure: Set up instances dedicated to the "celebrities" in one field of interest. It is good to make these redundant and distributed. This already happens, indeed. An example was newsbots.eu: https://web.archive.org/web/20220408204643/https://newsbots.eu/@admi n More recently I set up one such thematic instance for EU officers: https://respublicae.eu/@praetor/108077919947708699 . (Although frankly I would probably not have bothered, if I had known of plans for the official instance https://social.network.europa.eu/explore , given complications: https://respublicae.eu/@praetor/108222742095791966 .) Federico ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss References 1. https://youtu.be/i3jeKros4Yk 2. https://youtu.be/Hpdd97teGhM ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?
Sorry, in retrospect, maybe I should have created a new thread - but really what I am trying to do is to put our frustration energy, as evident in this whole twitter nonsense, to a realistic, practical project and take the matter to our own hands! 😄 On May 12, 2022, at 07:42, Yasuaki Kudo wrote: Oh man, I am so inspired to do this thing that I have been proposing for some time, including most recent discussions with friends around me! Together, we can start to compile a Free Software collection for the New (Ultimately Non-Exchanged-Based) Economy based on Commons. [1]https://youtu.be/i3jeKros4Yk Around 3:20 time mark, Friede, an economist, mentions the Free Software model. In more practical terms, I am trying to create with collaborators a Software Distribution (my personal preference would be as a GNU Guix channel) for worker cooperatives (companies based on one-worker-one vote instead of one-share-one-vote) that will include: - Free Software specifically written for the cooperatives. (say, a shared application framework) This could be just a pointer, instead of outright inclusion of code, as done in Guix/Nix - Knowhow documents - 'Business directory' for worker cooperatives - Integration tests for components that worker cooperatives wish to combine - Regular Office Hours for co-education and knowhow exchange Currently, many worker cooperatives in the ICT sector take software development contracts that may go like - "Hiring a developer with Experience in React and MonoDB"... This kind of contract is solely based on monetary exchange and it does not add much to the Commons other than just applying some open source software (almost in forms only and not in spirit) Instead, what we want to do is to develop a whole array of expertise in which the cooperative take the center stage - anyone who likes the system in this ecosystem will say, this Free Software system comes from that circle of worker cooperatives, let's hire someone from there! Another video clip I would like to share, around 17:00 mark [2]https://youtu.be/Hpdd97teGhM If you are also inspired, let's work together! -Yasu On May 12, 2022, at 05:05, Thomas Lord wrote: All the more reason why this is a valuable idea for an organization whose primary purpose is spreading education and real world use of libre software systems. Meanwhile, there is whatever the FSF is trying to do which is entirely unclear from their web site. This reminds of a few years back when I wanted to point city officials in Berkeley to some online resource where they could quickly learn about software freedom and about available software -- and I discovered that nothing on the FSF web site was at all adequate to this. -t On 2022-05-11 03:46, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote: Il 02/05/22 01:23, Thomas Lord ha scritto: Here, broadly, would be the technical infrastructure: Set up instances dedicated to the "celebrities" in one field of interest. It is good to make these redundant and distributed. This already happens, indeed. An example was newsbots.eu: https://web.archive.org/web/20220408204643/https://newsbots.eu/@admi n More recently I set up one such thematic instance for EU officers: https://respublicae.eu/@praetor/108077919947708699 . (Although frankly I would probably not have bothered, if I had known of plans for the official instance https://social.network.europa.eu/explore , given complications: https://respublicae.eu/@praetor/108222742095791966 .) Federico ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss References 1. https://youtu.be/i3jeKros4Yk 2. https://youtu.be/Hpdd97teGhM ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?
Yes, and I think it is way bigger than just privacy. My mother told I must feel much freer when I learned driving. The same thing goes to the computers and the Internet - while the computers can be programmed by anyone and people can upload anything to their heart's content on the Internet, the prevailing direction is so much the opposite. The reversing of this trend will be thrilling, educational and world changing! Yes, education will be the key - and it's not that I am suggesting people go back to university or anything formal (although nothing wrong with that)- we can educate each other! Combining free software development and mutual education is something that we should do. To give a specific example, I follow this interactive tutorial with my friend's daughter [1]https://jscoq.github.io/ext/sf/lf/full/Basics.html and this has been mutually beneficial. Courses like these lend themselves very well to studying in pairs or groups. If free software development can take advantage of something like this - implementing well specified software (even better if accompanied by proofs?) - maybe we can have a model of development that scales to thousands of programmers😄 -Yasu On May 3, 2022, at 17:02, Paul Sutton via libreplanet-discuss wrote: On 02/05/2022 22:42, Yasuaki Kudo wrote: Just like the 'Occupy Wall St.', can we have continuous digital assemblies where ideas can be discussed all the time (people have different schedules and live in various timezones anyway) for the digital transformation we are seeking? We can use something like: [1]https://communitybridge.com/bbb-room/coffee/ Hot Topics that come to my mind 😄 Isn't the idea of Occupy wall street to be visible to the general population? We can use bbb to plan things and discuss but the more we do this as public facing the more effect it may have and also encourage others to get involved. People join a conversation if it is emotive, so we can strike a chord with people on privacy or what the software is doing in the background and hopefully make people stop, think and start to make developers accountable. But also change our education system so that it is normal to put privacy before profits when developing apps / software. Paul ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss References 1. https://jscoq.github.io/ext/sf/lf/full/Basics.html OpenPGP_signature Description: Binary data ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?
Just like the 'Occupy Wall St.', can we have continuous digital assemblies where ideas can be discussed all the time (people have different schedules and live in various timezones anyway) for the digital transformation we are seeking? We can use something like: [1]https://communitybridge.com/bbb-room/coffee/ Hot Topics that come to my mind 😄 - Share information of what Free Software is better already or becoming so than Proprietary - Remove unaccountable black box services - Empower the people, not constrain what they can do (I cannot even copy photos from my IPhone to Linux without special procedures - 'what, do I need a special proprietary "application" just for that?') - Take direct action, collectively design Free Software and Implement! - Develop practical strategies for 'crowd development' to take advantage of thousands of protocol and software designers and programmers working on voluntary and part-time basis. It can be combined with mutual education so people can voluntarily work on projects, train and be trained at the same time! -Yasu On May 3, 2022, at 00:53, Paul Sutton via libreplanet-discuss wrote: On 01/05/2022 23:23, Thomas Lord wrote: You sparked what I think is a really good idea in my head. Of course, I can't judge if it really is a really good idea. :-) I think/guess many people discover that twitter is a fun and informative way to track some subject of interest. Four examples: - follow all your favorite Hollywood celebrities - follow all your favorite news outlets / journalists - subscribe to a list that is cultivated to carry the tweets of credible climate scientists and related climate advocates and experts - subscribe to a list of people actively making and posting about making music Conversely, celebrities, climate scientists and activists, etc. are all seeking to reach large, interested audiences. AHA! That can be assembled out of Mastodon with few or no changes -- mostly just by using it wisely. As someone said, the UI might benefit from some loving enhancement and documentation. So could we perhaps share our mastodon / fedi id's on this list so we can all perhaps start following each other, as much as possible. @zl...@qoto.org To start the ball rolling on this one. I am trying to put together a series of posts on my blog about cybersecurity, but starting off with, introducing the BASH shell using a series of 8 videos from youtube that I feel are good for beginners. I can use these at code club too, and hopefully help raise awareness of free software at the same time. https://personaljournal.ca/paulsutton With a link to the first video on May 4th https://personaljournal.ca/paulsutton/cybersecurity-part-3 So trying to find resources and share them, in a structured way. Clearly this can lead to cybersecurity, but this series can also lead to a whole range of other areas, such as developing free software, and developing secure applications / services which is still important. Something that I may look in to doing, as I want to encourage people to learn BASH scripting, python, networking etc, first then look at cybersecurity if they still wish to, they may decide to branch out and contribute to free software development. The way I am doing this, won't be to everyone's taste, BUT I am happy to link to alternatives and further resources, so hopefully we can find a way to do complementary each other. Paul References 1. https://communitybridge.com/bbb-room/coffee/ OpenPGP_0x8EA91B51E27E3D99.asc Description: Binary data ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss OpenPGP_signature Description: Binary data ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: very specific project proposal Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?
w. And make >> it easy for them to create a clear timeline of questions asked >> and answers offered by one or more of the participating experts. >> That'd be information rich, low-distraction, naturally inclined >> to be more civil and friendly twitter. >> Also, the whole system would "scale down" to smaller local interest >> groups that, even though they aren't celebrities, can set up >> those hub instances for their local interest. >> People can already do most of this hand, but an organized >> effort, including recruitment of experts, and spending on promoting >> the system, would be the kind of thing the FSF ought to be >> rushing to do. >> -t >>> On 2022-04-30 16:23, Yasuaki Kudo wrote: >>> I think Free Software licenses are great and the rest is just pure >>> competition of merits. >>> We can reduce the activity to just being better than proprietary. >>> For this, we need to be really creative. Just Replacing twitter with >>> something else is one simple idea but certainly just a beginning of >>> our brainstorming. >>> - Email is a dominant protocol but there are many service providers. >>> Can we do something similar for public messaging? I have this >>> mastodon thing and I have been a computer programmer for 30 years but >>> I still can't figure out how it works at all. The whole thing is >>> very cryptic. What's wrong here? >>> - It seems that certain public do want censorship according to their >>> taste - how do we enable this? This is a kind of feature that favors >>> Free Software version because when it comes to any control or >>> empowerment, the owners of proprietary systems insist they and only >>> they have a leg up. >>> - Advertisements are very annoying. Free Software versions can remove them? >>> - Can we create a 'crowd development' systems development model >>> designed to work with thousands of software designers, specification >>> writers, programmers and so on. >>> - Free Software movement seems quite weak on getting involved with the >>> much larger community of the general public. Can we do better? >>> etc. >>> Oh man, this gets me very excited! >>> Monopoly systems becoming obsoleted by new paradigms are very normal >>> around the computer circle - can Democratic Software movement do the >>> same against the incumbent oligarchical systems? 😄 >>> -Yasu >>>> On Apr 30, 2022, at 20:46, Jean Louis wrote: >>>> * Thomas Lord [2022-04-29 17:49]: >>>>> This is an opportunity to greatly expand the number >>>>> of people who use free software, and to help them >>>>> learn why it - and why resisting untrustworthy >>>>> websites - is valuable. Thus, it is the FSF's reason >>>>> for existence, writ large. >>>>> I think they will make excuses and stay sleepy at the >>>>> wheel, so to speak. >>>> I know that FSF has full hands of work. >>>> You are free to contribute to it, or otherwise contribute to the cause >>>> by your own initiatives. >>>> Jean >>>> Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: >>>> https://www.fsf.org/campaigns >>>> In support of Richard M. Stallman >>>> https://stallmansupport.org/ ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?
I think Free Software licenses are great and the rest is just pure competition of merits. We can reduce the activity to just being better than proprietary. For this, we need to be really creative. Just Replacing twitter with something else is one simple idea but certainly just a beginning of our brainstorming. - Email is a dominant protocol but there are many service providers. Can we do something similar for public messaging? I have this mastodon thing and I have been a computer programmer for 30 years but I still can't figure out how it works at all. The whole thing is very cryptic. What's wrong here? - It seems that certain public do want censorship according to their taste - how do we enable this? This is a kind of feature that favors Free Software version because when it comes to any control or empowerment, the owners of proprietary systems insist they and only they have a leg up. - Advertisements are very annoying. Free Software versions can remove them? - Can we create a 'crowd development' systems development model designed to work with thousands of software designers, specification writers, programmers and so on. - Free Software movement seems quite weak on getting involved with the much larger community of the general public. Can we do better? etc. Oh man, this gets me very excited! Monopoly systems becoming obsoleted by new paradigms are very normal around the computer circle - can Democratic Software movement do the same against the incumbent oligarchical systems? 😄 -Yasu > On Apr 30, 2022, at 20:46, Jean Louis wrote: > > * Thomas Lord [2022-04-29 17:49]: >> This is an opportunity to greatly expand the number >> of people who use free software, and to help them >> learn why it - and why resisting untrustworthy >> websites - is valuable. Thus, it is the FSF's reason >> for existence, writ large. >> >> I think they will make excuses and stay sleepy at the >> wheel, so to speak. > > I know that FSF has full hands of work. > > You are free to contribute to it, or otherwise contribute to the cause > by your own initiatives. > > > > Jean > > Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: > https://www.fsf.org/campaigns > > In support of Richard M. Stallman > https://stallmansupport.org/ ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: What does Elon Musk say about free software?
To me, Free Software also means direct action. If you don't like twitter, just don't use it, make alternatives and enjoy all the benefits in Free Software, if one likes to use such platforms to begin with. No offense but Mr. Musk's actions are pretty much irrelevant - just the latest spending spree on another vanity project? 😅 Twitter can just go to rot and there will be no tears shed - just good riddance! -Yasu > On Apr 29, 2022, at 04:13, Thomas Lord wrote: > > You can probably infer his position on free software > if you begin by searching for the complete source > code for Tesla cars. > > -t > > >> On 2022-04-27 17:25, Akira Urushibata wrote: >> I have seen the discussion here started by our friend Thomas Lord >> titled "thank you elon musk." >> I decided to start a new thread to discuss the issue from a different >> dimension. >> I have a question for free software supporters here: >> What is Elon Musk's position regarding free software? >> Has he made any notable statements which give us some idea? >> --- >> Elon Musk considers himself a supporter of "free speech." He believes >> that Twitter does not respect free speech enough and desires to change >> that. Experts point out that this is easier said than done; numerous >> articles have appeared in recent days examining realistic implications. >> When considering free speech the words of George Orwell come to mind: >> "Freedom of thought is the freedom to say that two and two make four. >> That granted, all else follows." >> Free software means you have the freedom to share good a program which >> add things correctly and you also have to freedom to correct a program >> which doesn't. Such freedom implies the right to discuss in public >> problems one encounters, which is of course, freedom of speech. >> One must also consider the fact that free software provides vital >> functions which make social media platforms such as Twitter >> possible. So if Elon Musk likes free speech, he should be a supporter >> of free software. I wonder whether he explicitly states so. >> ___ >> libreplanet-discuss mailing list >> libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org >> https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss > > ___ > libreplanet-discuss mailing list > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: thank you elon musk
You know, 'twitter' seems to be about tweeting or speaking, whatever that comes to your mind. Can we have some kind of a reverse system that is more about listening and discovery? Finding out what matters to people, who are allied with your current state of thinking, etc. I think this is also related to effective homepages and search engines - can we have homepage systems that are integrated with the accompanying search engines, so that we maximize our chances of understanding what others have in mind?Rather than just HTML, we make the whole thing built up from the ground so that content will be discovered and understood by interested parties. To function properly, this kind of system will have no advertisement or any form of influence or control, as that will add noise and make the system less effective. It might be more compatible with federalism and democracy. 😄 As far as the buyout is concerned, my hunch is twitter is an uninteresting platform and billionaires can spend as much money as they wish as their latest vanity project - its relevance on society seems minimal? -Yasu > On Apr 27, 2022, at 15:36, Paul Sutton via libreplanet-discuss > wrote: > > > >> On 26/04/2022 20:38, Adrienne G. Thompson wrote: >>Hi Thomas: >> If the FSF is not now going very hard on promoting Mastadon, >> they should never be trusted to anything right again. >>Why take such a negative approach? Why not, instead, propose a campaign >>to promote Mastodon? We are here to support the Free Software Movement >>- a movement that relies on contributions beyond code. >>Adrienne G. Thompson >>Principal and Chief Code Artist, GNU C-Graph > > I agree here, Mastodon does need content, it has that to a point as I > subscribe to feeds from Sciencedaily for example, but few people interact. > As far as I am aware people not exactly have long conversations on twitter > either. > > There are several forums set up to facilitate discussions on how the > fediverse can move forward, I am part of both. > > https://fediverse.town/ > https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/ > > As a platform, or set of platforms they can't move forward unless people > say what they want, and help promote. > > we need to perhaps coordinate efforts so a post from the fsf is boosted by > the community, for example. but not over a period of wees but days or > hours in some cases. > > I tend to avoid mastodon, as there are more people on there who seem to be > anti vaccination, anti science and racist, so it doesn't help me, > > Free software is just as much about the community of developers, users, > creators etc as it is about the fsf, who,among other things are trying to > also enforce our licenses when they are infringed, something individual > users can't do easily. > > Paul > ___ > libreplanet-discuss mailing list > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss OpenPGP_signature Description: Binary data ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Free License Oriented Programming
Yes, your skepticism is well established, and I would like to reference this short video: * Astra Taylor asks Philosopher Cornel West on Real Democracy! [1]https://youtu.be/aYVtmx6vSfQ But I would like to think that going against the flow and adopting democracy has similarities to moving away from proprietary to free software! Another way of putting it is the word 'empowerment'. Free Software, Democracy, and I would add others like Education and Human Rights, all empower the individuals so they can authorize themselves to do what they need to do and not seek for anyone's permission. Sorry need to go to sleep soon but thank you for your many good points and let's keep talking! -Yasu PS I recently did volunteer Japanese CC translation of: Capitalism Will End. What Is A Better System? - Economic Update with Richard Wolff [2]https://youtu.be/OfOI9TlZ8_U On Apr 26, 2022, at 19:41, Jean Louis wrote: * Yasuaki Kudo [2022-04-25 12:59]: So I have been thinking for a long time how to change the tide and make the workplace democracy (one worker one vote and zero shareholder votes, or worker cooperatives) more of the norm rather than exception, as well as how to start one 😅 It sounds you think democracy is solution to group management. For management of anything one need management skills. Those are various, could be analytical skills, implementation skills, relationships, and many other issues. The knowledge and practical competency for management does not stem from simple membership in a group. Thus it is impossible that all the members in the group have analytical skills to decide on how and what to do in that group. Before deciding about democracy for the group you better review why at all did you decide that democracy is good for any group? Do you think there was EVER democracy in this world? There was never, not even in the ancient Greece, where they have included only "citizens" and not those living in the city, but citizens were qualified by different criteria. Additionally, they did not include women. Democracy was never. It is not today, it will never be. Let us not live in delusions. The term "democracy" is used by various oppressive powers to blame other countries and gain control over them. Like the USA for example. One worker -- one vote -- simply does not work and will never work well. It is the best way to ruin every organization. It will lead to corruption. People are not equal. Their skills and education are not equal. Thus not every worker can know about management and decisions that are optimum for survival of the group. If that would be so, then people would not attend financial courses to become qualified to deal with money. Management is everything. Even a cleaner is manager, managing resources for cleaning of the building, and managing dirt. We all manage something. And highest managers are highest servants. They have to serve all the people under them with resources, education, guidance, so that organization performs well. Let us put aside those common viewpoints how managers are "bosses" and those under them need to listen to their advices and orders, even if bad. That is wrong viewpoint and wrong setup. All people in one organization serve each other. Managers who are good will be most efficient and serving most people at once. Now back to management issues as related to democracy: I don't think democracy is the goal and that it should be kept as ultimate principle. Imagine a group of farmers who are supposed to bring best decisions how to divide the moneys from cooperative association. Now majority of those farmers, who are frankly stupid for management purposes, could say, let us have that money that we buy for each of us cow, and we will have our milk and we will be happy, this way each of us benefits. Maybe this could be majority like 90% of them. And maybe 10% of them would say that it is better to purchase tractor so that each of farmers can faster farm and get more food. This would be more beneficial and more worth than just a cow. Now let the stupid majority decide it for everybody and destroy their group endeavors on long term. And that is democracy. Don't you see that the world of democracy is not functioning? In that vein, I thought about the sort of market in which workplace democracy really has the natural competitive advantage, rather than just having nicer administration and relationships among the workers? It is illusion. But what you could do -- you could mix meritocracy with democracy. 1. Make an articles of organization so that people must have completed specific skills in order to be in the specific group wit
Free License Oriented Programming
Hi, So I have been thinking for a long time how to change the tide and make the workplace democracy (one worker one vote and zero shareholder votes, or worker cooperatives) more of the norm rather than exception, as well as how to start one 😅 In that vein, I thought about the sort of market in which workplace democracy really has the natural competitive advantage, rather than just having nicer administration and relationships among the workers? I wonder if this is a viable idea - we set up a software worker cooperative whose business model is to divide the customers' problems into pieces of free software with multiple aims: * Lower the cost of maintenance by relying as much as possible on 'free lunch' provided the by the free software. * Prevent the internal cottage industry within large enterprises that require huge IT budgets due to all systems being custom made for the organization and there is not enough exposure or critical analysis * Create better public relations by making contributions to Free Software as necessary. * Effective documentation that is verified by the community open to any new comer * Ensure relevant workers can be found and hired when needed * and so on The worker cooperatives, with its democratic cultures will fit naturally to the Free Software community and they can help closed private (capitalist) enterprises so they can decompose their software requirements to pieces of Free Software, stitch them together to have the real corporate systems. To be more concrete, say a bank has proprietary risk evaluation systems that cost a lot of money for them to maintain. What part of the system do they really want to maintain and what part of is just commodity trucking of information (ETL) that they only regard as cost of doing business. Can we break it up into pieces of Free Software and reduce the problem into the integration of the software as the enterprises see fit? I wonder what your thoughts are 😄 Cheers, Yasu ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: (renamed) Misc mailing list
Hi, (I have just 'replied all' from my (God forbid, proprietary!) IPhone so forgive me, the addresses in To or CC are pretty arbitrary) I am very sympathetic to everyone who live in authoritarian regimes. Pre-1945, someone like me, (an anarchist, pacifist, democrat, an apologist for enemy states and all the rest... ) in Japan would have been probably arrested, tortured and or killed for trumped up charges. I often wonder what my escape hatch would be, if I lived in North Korea or something. I might learn how to be a good singer, a computer programmer, or anything else and stay away from politics. But there are many in-between states where the regime may mimic a shambolic 'democracy' just for the show, or strongly suppress unwanted opinions by murder, kidnap, etc and the majority would happily live without questioning too much, and not call the state totalitarian. The regime will allow a certain range of public discourse that are irrelevant or useful to the regime. In such cases, and I suspect PRC may qualify, (But I don't know the country well enough) the discussion of Free Software might be within the permitted range of discourse, as its purported aim is just to promote a particular form of software licensing, no big deal. But of course, there is another dimension in that it is a way of hinting a bigger idea such as democracy and free speech, while stopping short of directly mentioning them. My apologies if I am completely off the track here but again, I feel deeply for people who don't have the kind of freedoms completely taken for granted in advanced industrial 'Western' countries (for which Japan seems to be an honorary member from the East😅) and I would love to work with everyone to do everything practical to improve the situation! I am not sure whether this helps in the discussion of what the appropriate topic is for this mailing list, etc, but wanted to mention that I think the social context could be very different for each participant . Cheers, Yasu ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Quick Check on COVID Lockdowns
If there isn't one already, maybe what it means is we need a sister mailing list (or anything else) for peripheral topics or general community building at large 😄 I see this often (and this is not just for LibrePlanet) where natural human interactions are blocked due to the intensional focus (sorry not sure whether it should be spelled with a t or s 😅) of the group, but it is a loss because they are related and support each other (it's just that intensional side is more visible) -Yasu > On Apr 13, 2022, at 23:04, Jean Louis wrote: > > * andrew via libreplanet-discuss > [2022-04-11 22:41]: >> Shanghai, where I live, has been locked down again. Any of you in >> lockdown? > > And how is this related to Libreplanet? > > > Jean > > Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: > https://www.fsf.org/campaigns > > In support of Richard M. Stallman > https://stallmansupport.org/ > > ___ > libreplanet-discuss mailing list > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Quick Check on COVID Lockdowns
(disclaimer: if there is a better mailing list for this subject, someone please let us know but here we go) In Tokyo and its surrounding metro area where I live, things are pretty much back to normal except for the voluntary (meaning not legally mandated but some supermarkets, etc make requests) mask wearing. It looks like we have highly divergent approaches depending on where we are when it comes to this. The Chinese approach sounds not so surprising given the authoritarian powers of its government 😅 In Japan, I think the primary driver was the cultural conformity pressure that, not surprisingly, extended to mask wearing and all that (not necessarily 'scientific') -Yasu > On Apr 10, 2022, at 16:02, andrew via libreplanet-discuss > wrote: > > Shanghai, where I live, has been locked down again. Any of you in > lockdown? > > (Personally I think Shanghai's lockdown is quite bad, I haven't written > about this in English yet, but here for your reference is a school essay > about it. Note that since it's a school essay, I haven't fully > expressed, and it's in Chinese.) > > 令人惊悚的发现 > > 又封闭管理了。这是第二次全市封闭。上一次在2020年。 > > Delta变体杀伤性强，传染性较强，全球肆虐，在欧洲影响特别明显，导致上万例感染，上千例死亡。若在上海市等人口密度大的城市爆发，后果不堪设想。最近 > 新型冠状病毒的Omicron变体全球蔓延。本来我很受到惊吓，我以为它是与Delta类似的杀伤型变种。然而，阅读相关资料后，我发现Omicron变体传染性强，杀伤 > 性小，与以往的流行性感冒的死亡率类似。因此有国家和地区采用以往的流感政策，即仅病人的密切接触者居家隔离，在潜伏期完成多次检测，若检测结果皆为>阴性则允许其恢复正常生活。 > > 上海本来没什么事，只有在机场、火车站检测到的少量外地输入病例，容易隔离追踪。然而有一次正是收隔离人员的酒店管理差，导致Omicron疯狂扩散。这也使 > 政府发现Omicron的无症状感染者占感染者比例极大，也证明Omicron杀伤性小。 > > 2022年3月10日，我们接到通知：上海市中小学教学活动改为线上。忽略线上教学的法律、技术问题，线上教学的效果仍然无法与线下教学相比。我当时很惊讶， > 特别是在发现Omicron其实没什么大不了的后，感到奇怪。令我惊讶的是，上海市居然采取封闭管理的行政措施。所有居民必须居家，不得外出，甚至不能去最近 > 的商店购买食物，目的为完全歼灭新冠。 > > 经信息查找，我发现上海的蓝领工人不少。他们的工作很多都是无法居家线上完成的。隔离或封锁意味他们失去收入的来源，购买力下降，最终导致长期的经济>问题；更重要的是，因为现在全市封锁，医院也都不接受新的病人，连救护车、抢救等基本的服务都无法访问。这使上千的脑卒中、心肌梗死病人失去生命的机>会。相比于Omicron约0.07%的死亡率（在上海合计7例死亡），这对人们影响更大，在当今人口老龄化的社会里也有更多患有慢性病的病人治疗被拖延，长期后果 > 严重。即使是对于生活相对稳定的家庭，不能出去锻炼身体，不能出去购买食物也是影响我们生活质量的。 > > 在尝试通过封锁以期减少新型冠状病毒引起的死亡同时，应当考虑因为封锁等造成的相关死亡和生活质量的下降。毕竟最终目的是造福人民，不是为了证否其他>国家“与病毒共存”的标语和证明自己有消除新冠的能力。 > > ___ > libreplanet-discuss mailing list > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Should distros take steps to reduce russian access to Free Software
NPM unaccountability is an issue of its own I think, but yes, you are absolutely right! > On Mar 22, 2022, at 12:48, Jim Fulner wrote: > > Well, > It looks like all this nonsense went somewhere. > [1]https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/big-sabotage-famous-n > pm-package-deletes-files-to-protest-ukraine-war/ > I'm really sad that such discussion to attempt to make it more > difficult for anyone to access Free Software even happened in our > community. I suspect that such efforts not only make our movement > appear as though we aren't as committed to human freedom as we claim to > be, but it probably only reinforces government propaganda that the West > is against everyday Russian people and the authoritarian state is their > only protection. > Jim > > References > > 1. > https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/big-sabotage-famous-npm-package-deletes-files-to-protest-ukraine-war/ > ___ > libreplanet-discuss mailing list > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
General User Interface Question
Hello! I have been flabbergasted to see how the computer User Interface has evolved or devolved. After being laid off by a bank many years ago, my hands have been forced to work for a small software contractor 😅 and man, I have seen gazillions of do-it-all-over-again User Interfaces. Back 20, 30 years ago, I thought this was already a done area (especially for corporations that generally don't care paying Microsoft license fees - it's peanut for them) with things like Win32, MFC, etc. And as I spent so many years at a bank, I had no idea that in the world at large, the web-based user interfaces are in all the rage and they are so incomplete and immature. Still shellshocked, I have this simple question - what is the honest status of the user interface world? Many people I know have almost snobbish attitudes toward it, like the whole area being beneath them 😅😅. Is there any genuine community effort to get this back on track (or maybe it never was, being dominated by proprietary vendors)? -Yasu ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
All this hot air about Russia...
No allowing xyz to use Free Software seems totally besides the point. How about Political Software? * Governments have horrible monopoly power - Ukrainian men to allowed to leave country? Russian Conscripts? Where is the list of such outrageous practices? * How do the Russian demands compare to those made by other countries? Context please! * I would like to read the American written response to Russian demands - where is it? * Violation of "international law" number xyz. I would love to see that list. In my opinion, the Spirit of Free Software is valid and that has far more useful applications than all this hot air 😄 -Yasu ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: LibreJam - FSF* should host a Libre Game development tournament!
Hello! I was just casually glancing through my email inbox and this caught my attention! Recently, I have become convinced that a viable way to start a new collaborative society is through community efforts in having fun, developing our own video games together and by extension, creating rich interactive educational content! Not only the content itself, even the process of making the game itself can be made into an educational content (like the show PowerNation 😆) I am discussing with a few people and hopefully we will start to do something next year 😄. In my opinion, Education is the key to everything, and in terms of computer programming, it is the way to simplify software with better algorithm, rather than mindlessly putting together unaccountable libraries (NPM??) Cheers, Yasu > On Dec 30, 2021, at 13:30, Richard Stallman wrote: > > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > >> In a lot of ways I think the bigger problem for free software games is >> discoverability. Have you played Smalltrek? How about Witch's Blast? >> OpenAlchemist? Diver Down? Mindcrosser? Hijinx: A Christmas Capper? >> Seahorse Adventures? Shattered Pixel Dungeon? Anagramarama? Ardentryst? > > We can do something to help with that. The first step is to add entries > in directory.fsf.org for them. > > Then we could make another page with a list of these free games > and put it on gnu.org/software. It could have 5-10 lines of description > of each game. > > WDYT? > >> Non-free game engines I agree with. I think non-free tools is not >> enforceable. If the developer uses free content from opengameart.org or >> other sites, they may have no idea how the content was created. It >> makes sense to not allow non-free tools to build the game. > > I agree that there is nothing to be gained by making rules about how > the files _were_ written or tested. Or about what tools a participant > privately uses. If you prefer to use a non-free text editor, that has > no effect on anyone else, so we have no reason to bother you about > that. We don't even need to ask what you actually use. > > The rules that make sense are about what the release program allows > developers to do to develop it further. So every file should be suitable > for editing with a free editor, and compiling with a free compiler, etc. > > > Side issue. May I suggest not using the word "content" to describe > works of authorship or art? That term subtly denigrates _all_ of them. > > See https://gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html. > > -- > Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) > Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) > Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) > Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) > > > > ___ > libreplanet-discuss mailing list > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
'Solidarity Economy' Information Systems
Hello! I remember that last time I asked about Free Software "CRM" systems and we had a valuable discussion. Since then my thinking has evolved during countless hours of discussions with my friends and colleagues in cooperatives and associates groups. At this time (it will probably still evolve 😅), I think that we ought to have an IT System (I call it something like Solidarity Economy Information Systems) with the following characteristics: * The system will be minimalist and constructivist - the use of complicated external libraries are generally discouraged and if we must, to be done in a controlled fashion. * All the core systems to be developed in Free or Open Source License * No black box service allowed * There will be shared services such as database and messaging for the network, accessible by API * All participants, including "Producers" and "Consumers" are co-developers of the system * There will be General Assembly and various other appropriate organs, periodically reviewing the overall system design * 'Information Asymmetry' is considered very harmful. Documentation, Education, Tutorials, pair programming, etc will be emphasized and everybody will be encouraged to provide them unconditionally. Where a person is engaged a highly technical domain, the very minimum requirement will be to train another person and that person will repeat the process. * Software contractors will understand the concept and voluntarily register themselves as practitioners. * Contractors for the customer specific code, which can be added in an integral part of the system are expected to also make contributions to the core system. * The aim of this network is to empower the participants - it is expected that it will lower the cost of producing the custom software that organizations and individuals require. * Primary target customers are those in what I call 'Solidarity Economy' sector - such as worker coops and other cooperatives. ... and I can go on with so many more bullet points but will stop here 😄😄. If this interests anyone, let me know - we can do it together! -Yasu ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Were Intellectual Property to be abolished altogether, would you or FSF support it?
Yes, the Free Software movement and (Worker) Cooperatives should definitely join up! One prominent area that I can think of is the Payment System (like GNU Taler). It would be a wonderful exercise of global people power if can all get together and create the People's replacement of Credit Cards and others dominated by the Capitalists!😄 > On Jul 13, 2021, at 16:33, Paul Sutton via libreplanet-discuss > wrote: > > > >> On 13/07/2021 08:18, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote: >> Il 13/07/21 00:37, Yasuaki Kudo ha scritto: >>> In a worker cooperative, there is one-person-one-vote democracy. So I >>> cannot just dictate that the Software Licensing we use will be GPL. >> You can if you put it in the articles of incorporation or bylaws (depending >> on your jurisdiction). >> Federico > > With that sort of set up surely what you can do is present a strong argument > not just ethically but also financially and technically for using free > software, cite some good examples of where it has proven to be effective. > Ideally that people can related to. > > The internet runs on free software (well mostly) for example. > > Libreoffice documentation is coming along nicely, which helps, do not assume > people can simply pick up some software and just use it without help. In > some cases are even just able to search and find the right information. > > I think the idea of platform coops is something I suggested on social hub as > a way to expend the fediverse, as in more people running their own server or > have small groups doing so. They like the idea we, as with free software we > need some sort of critical mass using it. > > Paul > > ___ > libreplanet-discuss mailing list > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Were Intellectual Property to be abolished altogether, would you or FSF support it?
In a worker cooperative, there is one-person-one-vote democracy. So I cannot just dictate that the Software Licensing we use will be GPL. If all other members say Proprietary is better, I would have to go along with that decision. Arguments for Proprietary Software might be that we live in a Capitalist system and even the cooperatives cannot escape the economic reality that forces their hand. I might still argue that we should 'voluntarily' use Libre-licensing such as GPL (but again I would only have one vote 😅) This is what I meant 😄 > On Jul 13, 2021, at 06:13, jahoti wrote: > > > >> On 7/12/21 8:29 PM, Yasuaki Kudo wrote: >> 'Voluntarily' , as in this: >> http://dklevine.com/papers/ip.ch.2.m1004.pdf >> Meaning, I would prefer something like GPL citing the benefits described in >> the link 😄 > > I'm still not quite sure I understand, sorry. Do you mean citing the benefits > of a preamble on top of a free software license body, and then using that on > your works? > ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Were Intellectual Property to be abolished altogether, would you or FSF support it?
Platform Cooperatives... is a word invented and used by people who advocate cooperative alternatives to on-demand employers like Uber. I would prefer GPL-style license and I dislike server-side black boxes. In a worker coop however, we only have one-vote-per-worker so I would have to have a good argument to convince my fellow workers. That's why my inquiry in the first place 😄 > >> * Create Platform Cooperatives > > What does this mean? If you mean to create Service as a Software > Substitute, please consider it is as abusive to the user as is non-free > software. > https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-serve.html > It is important to show others that we do ourselves as we recommend > others to do. I think many of them are just hired hands and leave whoever paid them for the work with the right to choose any software license, including proprietary or black box, as they please. I have done the same in my 20+ years of wage work for Capitalists 😄 > > Do you mean that these international cooperatives do not develop free > software, but they are only focused on maintenance of existing free > software? > Not so much, I think - but yes, I heard terms such as Cooperative have very negative connections in many countries where corrupt governments coopted and colluded with them. 😅 >> Cooperatives are usually considered to be socialists and are in favor >> of creating common good for the society. > > Sure. Does this give a bad image to the group in Japan? > > In Ecuador, it is considered better. But there have been some bad > experiences that taint the image of socialist initiatives. It is > important to take care of showing that the horizontal structure is not > bad. It is necesary to do things better and more honestly than the > capitalist structure for the image of socialism not to be tainted. > >> If/when we develop business oriented software for the existing or new >> cooperatives, or federation of cooperatives, I am very curious what >> our consensus, or discussions leading up to it, will be regarding >> software licensing and Intellectual Property at large. 😄 Yes, we will find out! Being just one vote of the many fellow workers, I would need to have a good argument for free software and this email thread should help 😄 > I suggest to start small and prove that your intentions provide good > results. Sometimes, out of practicality, people side with their > opposers because they think it is better to get something unjust done > than do nothing because good values would not be held otherwise. There > are also cases where activists show only the superficial results (such > as security, good functionality, ease of use) and then loose when it > comes to compete with non-free software. Non-free software can > sometimes be better in those areas. Free software is sure to win only > if the freedom issue is taken as the requirement and the other > characteristics are taken as desireable. In order to have long term > success, we must enhance freedom and mention the other characteristics > as an extra advantage. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Were Intellectual Property to be abolished altogether, would you or FSF support it?
'Voluntarily' , as in this: [1]http://dklevine.com/papers/ip.ch.2.m1004.pdf Meaning, I would prefer something like GPL citing the benefits described in the link 😄 On Jul 13, 2021, at 04:42, jahoti wrote: On 7/12/21 12:48 PM, Yasuaki Kudo wrote: My personal preference/instinct is to go voluntarily free software, regardless of what other companies or even cooperatives do. What do you mean by "voluntarily free software"? Bear in mind that almost all countries (including Japan) recognize copyright restrictions by default, which means software published without a license is non-free by default. References 1. http://dklevine.com/papers/ip.ch.2.m1004.pdf ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Were Intellectual Property to be abolished altogether, would you or FSF support it?
Thank you so much for all of this information! My personal preference/instinct is to go voluntarily free software, regardless of what other companies or even cooperatives do. What our email conversation revealed would be very useful in trying to persuade others if/when I need to do so 😄 At the same time, we probably need focused analysis for "Intellectual Property" (Now I understand there is even an objection to the term itself 😅), including software licensing, for the (worker) cooperatives because of their stated objective of advancing community interests. Cheers, Yasu > On Jul 12, 2021, at 14:44, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote: > > Il 12/07/21 02:04, Yasuaki Kudo ha scritto: >> the spirit of abolishing the Intellectual Property >>would perhaps also need to be stated > > If you mean abolishing the *term*, see the link I sent earlier: > https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/not-ipr.html > > If you mean abolishing any and all things occasionally placed under that > term, you will still need to define an overarching principle to do so. In > addition to some of the classics linked by Aaron Wolf you can see: > > Boldrin and Levine, "Against Intellectual Monopoly" > http://dklevine.com/general/intellectual/against.htm > > Lange and Powell, "No law: intellectual property in the image of an absolute > First Amendment". > https://openlibrary.org/works/OL2085671W/No_law > > Federico ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Were Intellectual Property to be abolished altogether, would you or FSF support it?
We are trying to start a worker cooperative in Japan, initially focused on application of IT, with these initial business ideas: * Help existing worker coop * Create Platform Cooperatives * Create cooperative financial systems At least in Japan, it seems worker cooperatives have not yet ventured into Information Technology as the main business. Internationally, there are many existing IT worker coops but it seems to me many of them simply get paid for developing the software that their customers will keep( although I have also heard that some customers will pay them to develop free software). Cooperatives are usually considered to be socialists and are in favor of creating common good for the society. If/when we develop business oriented software for the existing or new cooperatives, or federation of cooperatives, I am very curious what our consensus, or discussions leading up to it, will be regarding software licensing and Intellectual Property at large. 😄 -Yasu > On Jul 12, 2021, at 09:50, quil...@riseup.net wrote: > > Yasuaki Kudo writes: >> My original motivation of this inquiry is that my partners and I are >> in the process of starting an IT-focused 'worker cooperative' where, >> just like the GPL licensing, there is almost a playful inversion of >> Capitalistic values. We will probably need to make software licensing >> decisions sooner or later and I wanted to get a wholistic view of this >> matter 😄. >> -Yasu > > I am very interested in this. Please provide any information when you > get around it. ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Were Intellectual Property to be abolished altogether, would you or FSF support it?
Thank you for all of your replies - I am no legal expert but in framing this hypothesis, the spirit of abolishing the Intellectual Property would perhaps also need to be stated (Legislators probably wouldn't be able to even make a draft without it 😅) and the society will need to be supportive of it. Otherwise, there will be all sorts of ways to work around the abolition , including never releasing the relevant information to the public. And yes, trademarks etc - it would be very inconvenient if we couldn't even make unique identifications 😅 And there seems to be a long history for this subject. [1]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_copyright My original motivation of this inquiry is that my partners and I are in the process of starting an IT-focused 'worker cooperative' where, just like the GPL licensing, there is almost a playful inversion of Capitalistic values. We will probably need to make software licensing decisions sooner or later and I wanted to get a wholistic view of this matter 😄. -Yasu On Jul 12, 2021, at 03:27, quil...@riseup.net wrote: On 2021-07-10 4:44 p.m., Yasuaki Kudo wrote: This is a thought experiment: Would you or FSF support the idea of abolishing the concept of intellectual property altogether, making any form of 'Software Licensing', including GPL, null and void. Gone also will be any form of Patents and Copyrights. Just curious 😄 -Yasu Aaron Wolf writes: I support the abolition of copyright and patent law while keeping trademark law and moving some important things to new laws: - mandate source release for published works - prohibit DRM - expand trademark law to cover all forms of plaigiarism (some aspects of that rely on copyright today, which is a bad legal structure) Abolishing copyright and patent laws without the rest *might* still be net positive, but it would definitely have a mix of pros and cons. Aaron Snowdrift.coop I like Aaron's take. Yasuaki: consider that if you remove copyright without Aaron's suggestions, it would make all programs for which source code is not provided non-free software. And, as Aaron has also mentioned, some copyleft licences (such as the AGPL) prevent DRM in a way. Censorship in any form is bad for freedom. References 1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_copyright ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Were Intellectual Property to be abolished altogether, would you or FSF support it?
This is a thought experiment: Would you or FSF support the idea of abolishing the concept of intellectual property altogether, making any form of 'Software Licensing', including GPL, null and void. Gone also will be any form of Patents and Copyrights. Just curious 😄 -Yasu ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Web Application, how?
And I think it's also about taking back control. Today, for the majority, accessing the web means using Google Chrome and myriad of unknown Javascript that makes even software license practically irrelevant, accountability is none and blank check is given to the web sites/applications. For many applications, It might be the time consider adopting CUI 😄 > On May 21, 2021, at 23:23, J Leslie Turriff wrote: > > On 2021-05-20 06:37:35 Jean Louis wrote: >> * Yasuaki Kudo [2021-05-20 05:33]: >>> Hi, >>> >>> Thank you so much for your replies! I am so glad I asked! >>> >>> An idea came to us yesterday - to provide CompuServe/AOL-style BBS >>> interface. >>> >>> I think maybe the world has gotten too far with GUI and it's time to >>> consider judicious roll back to CUI 😄 >> >> Why not. Important is if it is functional and usable >> >> Console interfaces may be easier to understand for many people. > >Some GUI applications (notably, web browsers) impose large overheads in > storage and CPU > use, which are minimal in CUI applications. The extra overheads and > complexity can lead > to sluggish response. Also, in many cases CUI applications are easier to > work with > because the user is no continually having to switch from keyboard to mouse, > which > interrupts work flow. > > Leslie > -- > > ___ > libreplanet-discuss mailing list > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Web Application, how?
Hi, Thank you so much for your replies! I am so glad I asked! An idea came to us yesterday - to provide CompuServe/AOL-style BBS interface. I think maybe the world has gotten too far with GUI and it's time to consider judicious roll back to CUI 😄 Simpler CUI might offer quicker response, rapid development, accessibility for the visually impaired, and so on. Where visuals are truly needed, we can probably launch a web page, etc, to augment the main textual interface. (or embed a Terminal with a web page) In fact, the Bloomberg Terminal, so ubiquitously found in banks, seem to have a partially CUI interface. Cheers, Yasu > On May 18, 2021, at 02:57, Jean Louis wrote: > > * Yasuaki Kudo [2021-05-15 02:40]: >> So my friend and I are considering starting a worker cooperative, >> providing customized data management (such as CRM) tools for >> cooperative enterprises, etc. > > As I have my own Customer Relationship Management system, > >> Arguably HTML is more open standard than Proprietary Microsoft APIs. >> But then again, we are just dismayed by looking at barrage of >> Javascript "frameworks" etc, the worst case-in-points of Do-o-Cracy. > > I don't think those are comparable, but what I understand is you are > trying to think about the interface and presentation. So I have > something to say about that in the next email. > >> For the development of web-based applications, what is the current >> cleanest or the most recommended solution that is FSF-approved? > > The FSF so far I know, is not disapproving or approving your software. > > You could however think of making your software part of GNU project. > > In general, the free software philosophy is that software should be > free in terms of liberty. > > If you license your software with GNU Afferto General Public License, > that would be most beneficial for people. > > GNU Affero General Public License - GNU Project - Free Software Foundation > https://www.gnu.org/licenses/agpl-3.0.en.html > > > Jean > > Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: > https://www.fsf.org/campaigns > > Sign an open letter in support of Richard M. Stallman > https://stallmansupport.org/ > https://rms-support-letter.github.io/ > ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Web Application, how?
Hi! So my friend and I are considering starting a worker cooperative, providing customized data management (such as CRM) tools for cooperative enterprises, etc. It seems many existing "modern" web applications are just facelift of what used to be Microsoft Access custom forms - the pages may have HTML buttons and pictures instead of Microsoft's Win32 controls... Arguably HTML is more open standard than Proprietary Microsoft APIs. But then again, we are just dismayed by looking at barrage of Javascript "frameworks" etc, the worst case-in-points of Do-o-Cracy. For the development of web-based applications, what is the current cleanest or the most recommended solution that is FSF-approved? -Yasu ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
An intermission - I was just watching this and thought it might be a welcome refreshment here 😄
Who Cancel Culture Really Serves: [1]https://youtu.be/3zdyWmiagm4 References 1. https://youtu.be/3zdyWmiagm4 ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: The sad decline of copyleft software licenses? :(
I would really like to hear broad philosophical arguments concerning this. Although I am no expert, it seems the crux of the problem is "intellectual property" itself? I wonder if there are arguments for nullifying or limiting the extent of the "copyright holders' terms and conditions" in the first place. -Yasi > On Sep 23, 2020, at 00:57, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote: > > Pen-Yuan Hsing, 22/09/20 13:02: >> (2) WHY do copyleft licenses seem to be in steep decline? > > Are they? People have been claiming so for decades, but there's no > compelling evidence. Counting the number of throw-away git repositories > is not sufficient to answer the question. > > Federico > > ___ > libreplanet-discuss mailing list > libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org > https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Practicality of GNU project and libre movement (Sagar Acharya : 2)
Hi, I think this thread definitely explores many good points - I am new here but is there any structured discussion system for Free Software movement? For example, this site runs a discussion software called "Discourse" [1]https://community.coops.tech/ I have been asked by a contact at a large worker cooperative with over 10,000 members to provide some 'talking points memo' so that he can promote free software internally. They are facing the situation where they will become more and more invested in Microsoft, Google, Zoom, etc or potentially switch to Free Software ecosystem. Cheers, Yasu On Jul 25, 2020, at 05:39, Miles Fidelman wrote: On 7/24/20 3:14 PM, Roberto Beltran via libreplanet-discuss wrote: Most people on here already know how bad things are, but I don't think it's black or white win or lose. Do we really know how bad things are? Is there a report somewhere showing, for example adoption in free software, copyleft license and dependency in proprietary software / noncopyleft software in numbers and how it has evolved over the time? On a side note, do we have success criteria (over achievable stages, not just disappearance of proprietary software from the world) that we can use to compare and good metrics to measure the progress of the movement? Funny thing, but... - Pretty much every funded R&D project that I've been associated with, has contractual clauses requiring software to be released as either open source or to the public domain - the leading edge remains open source - Pretty much every ISP, Hosting, and Cloud provider relies heavily on FOSS software - with the bigger ones both funding critical projects, and releasing a lot of their infrastructure code as FOSS (Apache & Open Stack come to mind, Lyft's Clutch infrastructure management platform is looking particularly interesting) - The vast majority of the world's web sites run on Apache, on Linux or BSD - and a huge number run on WordPress (all FOSS) - Savvy IT directors prefer open source software to proprietary software - not for cost reasons (maintaining software is costly, whether you pay a vendor to do it or hire people) - but because it's more flexible, and avoids vendor lock in (less-savvy IT directors use FOSS because they think it's cheaper) - by the way, that includes some rather large organizations, like large pieces of the US Marine Corps Perhaps the real problem is that MOST software doesn't make it into wide-spread use, and hence cannot assemble a base of support for an open source effort. Specialized software tends to have smaller audiences - requiring either a very high price-tag, or a grant, to support a dedicated development & support team. And then there's the 90% that's a mix of pet projects, poorly implemented, that will never make it as either commercial or open source. Yes... there are lots of practical issues with the GNU project & other libre software efforts - but they have a lot more to do with lack of focus, design by committee, and, these days, politicization of language & discussions, and ostracism of key people (e.g., Stallman, Torvalds). The flaps over systemd (techno-politics) & Stallman (gender politics) have been far more damaging to free software, than financial matters. All of this is, of course, one man's opinion. Based on 50 years in the networking business, including a bunch of years at BBN, selling & leading lots of R&D projects, being the IT department for a non-profit, and building a small service bureau. And, yes, I rely on a Mac, and MS Office for lots of things - but I run my servers on Linux, Apache, MySQL, Postfix, Spamassassin, WordPress, and Sympa. Miles Fidelman -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra Theory is when you know everything but nothing works. Practice is when everything works but no one knows why. In our lab, theory and practice are combined: nothing works and no one knows why. ... unknown ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss References 1. https://community.coops.tech/ ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
Re: Practicality of GNU project and libre movement
In a way, I think money is not even a big issue. I recently came across this article: [1]https://newrepublic.com/article/121832/pleasure-do-it-yourself-slow- computing Applying the "Slow Food" analogy, our point would not be pouring money so that it becomes "Less Slow" 😄 I would say, we need to have more people enjoy it. So in practical terms, we need to develop a huge communal kitchen, instead of an industrial food factory. The workers at food factory, or paid computer programmers at Microsoft, for example, would not go there were it not for the money. However, the people at communal kitchens at camping sites go there for the enjoyment of it! Free Software development should a very enjoyable activity and we should aim to develop a practical regime of constantly welcoming new participants, educating them and empowering them to enjoy and contribute meaningfully to the Fee Software ecosystem 😄 -Yasu On Jul 24, 2020, at 06:36, Msavoritias wrote: Mr Fidelman, Whether this person is or isn't correct doesn't matter. We should treat everybody respectfully otherwise we are alienating potential Free Software users from joining our community. Please try to be more polite in the future. MSavoritias On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 15:22, Miles Fidelman wrote: On 7/23/20 12:48 PM, Sagar Acharya via libreplanet-discuss wrote: I read "Free as in Freedom" by Richard Stallman and am a strong supporter of GNU project. I strongly want it to succeed. However, when you keep money away from the free software movement, such a movement cannot survive against people who actively charge money for binaries without source code. All power arises from concealment. When you understand a system very well, the power goes away and it looks ordinary. When GNU or libre movement asks contributors or volunteers (both fancy words for "work for me for free"), you present making libre software as a secondary thing rather than a central thing. When projects licensed GPLv3 rely almost completely on "donations" from other, you rely on the donor's generosity for getting food at your table. I really want people to remove reliance on external things and make GNU central and very active. So what's your point? FOSS is doing quite well. Apache powers the web. Postfix powers email. Linux, Python, ... And plenty of the bug guys pay good money to folks who crank out FOSS software. What's the point of pontificating & spouting counter-factual bullshit? Do you just like making a fool of yourself? Or am I missing something? Miles Fidelman -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra Theory is when you know everything but nothing works. Practice is when everything works but no one knows why. In our lab, theory and practice are combined: nothing works and no one knows why. ... unknown ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list [1]libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org [2]https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss References 1. mailto:libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org 2. https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss References 1. https://newrepublic.com/article/121832/pleasure-do-it-yourself-slow-computing ___ libreplanet-discuss mailing list libreplanet-discuss@libreplanet.org https://lists.libreplanet.org/mailman/listinfo/libreplanet-discuss
