Re: User Experience Engineering
Improved user interface doesn't just mean GUI. It can also mean things like simplifying the syntax to make lilypond files more readible and usable, better package structures, something better than templates - style files etc. I'm talking about something analogous to the jump from TeX to LaTeX. I'm very happy for lilypond to remain text based, but I still believe the user experience could be improved. Ian H Manuel wrote: Am 06/01/2007 um 22:14 schrieb Kieren MacMillan: I totally agree: if Lilypond is to "catch on in a large way" (with the less-geeky public), then the UI has to be vastly improved. I certainly don't feel the need of a graphic interface. I have recently seen several composers happily pushing those beautiful little buttons to input their music, with and without midi-keyboards, only to find afterwards that they needed much more time to "finish" their score by doing ridiculous things like erasing empty measures, for instance. And of course, we can type in our music much faster. Otherwise, I agree with Kieren. Manuel ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: User Experience Engineering
Am 06/01/2007 um 22:14 schrieb Kieren MacMillan: I totally agree: if Lilypond is to "catch on in a large way" (with the less-geeky public), then the UI has to be vastly improved. I certainly don't feel the need of a graphic interface. I have recently seen several composers happily pushing those beautiful little buttons to input their music, with and without midi-keyboards, only to find afterwards that they needed much more time to "finish" their score by doing ridiculous things like erasing empty measures, for instance. And of course, we can type in our music much faster. Otherwise, I agree with Kieren. Manuel ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: User Experience Engineering
Hi, Linda (et al.): I would greatly encourage the project to focus on the user interface and the user experience if this is to catch on in a large way. I totally agree: if Lilypond is to "catch on in a large way" (with the less-geeky public), then the UI has to be vastly improved. However, I would much rather the team continue to improve the engine -- as they have been -- rather than focus on a market already dominated (and saturated) by other "more standard" apps. But of course, that's one of the great things about open source software: if someone feels so inclined, they can do something just like you're suggesting. In other words, feel free to: (a) Build a "great" user interface yourself; or, (b) Sponsor (i.e., hire) someone else to do it. I must also second Rick's statement I stopped using GUI based notation simply because I am, I estimate, about 50 times more productive with lilypond. For me, I would say I've seen 15-20x increase in productivity. (And for the record, I *taught* Finale to undergraduates, so it wasn't from a lack of ability on other applications...) Best regards, Kieren. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: User Experience Engineering
Linda Seltzer wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > Having previously worked at AT&T Labs, where I was a member of the User > Experience Forum, I would like to make a few comments as a relative > outsider seeing the Lilypond project for the first time. This is a great > endeavor and the software output is beautiful. > > I would greatly encourage the project to focus on the user interface and > the user experience if this is to catch on in a large way. > > Having to install separate editors (and who knows what bugs that will > bring and what other mailing lists one will have to subscribe to...) or > get into the system with DOS commands, and to understand what is wrong if > the flags are wrong, etc. does not constitute user interface engineering. > > A smooth user interface employing the standard already-debugged platforms, > such as Notepad and Word on Windows, with everything bug free, is more > important than more and more detailed features, which can be added later. > > Every 10 minues spent system administrating and installing things is 10 > minutes that real work doesn't get accomplished. > > User experience engineering is just as important as other areas of > software development. > > Sincerely, > Linda Seltzer > > > ___ > lilypond-user mailing list > lilypond-user@gnu.org > http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user > > Linda, I use Windows and I stopped using GUI based notation simply because I am, I estimate, about 50 times more productive with lilypond. But this productivity did not come without the pain of learing the language and writing my templates to be re-useable. Also a good text editor that supports lilypond syntax, and separates scheme syntax, is essential for the beginner. I suggest you use the Context editor for windows from here: http://www.context.cx/ And also download the extensive lilypond hilighter I wrote for Context, it has over 500 reserved words hilighted from here: http://forum.context.cx/index.php?topic=1396.0 This is an excellent editor that will launch lilypond adobe and the lilypond manual which will become your best friend, just like the soldiers best friend is his rifle, it's all in the manual, or just ask here. To give you an idea of productivity... I have scored some 200 of my own and others arrangements to date. If I were to do this in GUI I would still be "massaging" the first 10 scores with my mouse, all piece-meal. With lilypond you can write batch jobs to make global changes adcross all 200 scores very easily. With GUI all your work is one-at-a-time and laborious. Good Luck, (and your choice of computer platform is irrelavant, Windows will work just fine as any). Rick -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/User-Experience-Engineering-tf859298.html#a8198329 Sent from the Gnu - Lilypond - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: User Experience Engineering
Perhaps something like a tkinter little gui with some useful options to control output format (pdf,ps), a field for input file and a __link to the documentation__ ? (and an OK button, of course ;-) Not a gui to control every aspects of lilypond output, but a window which give to the first-time user a little help to understand what lilypond request ? Jan Nieuwenhuizen wrote: >Ian Hawthorn writes: > > > >>The biggest improvement to initial usability on the windows platform >>would be quite simple. If lilypond is invoked without arguments (i.e. >>by clicking the icon on the desktop) do something ... anything ... at >>minimum display some documentation as to usage. Else ... >> >> >> > >What do you mean? Does double clicking on the icon not bring up >notepad with instructions? > >Jan. > > > -- Aurèle Duda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Origami artworks / Créations en origami : http://aureleduda.free.fr ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: User Experience Engineering > Tutorials
I totally agree. On one hand I thank all the 10 years team for developping such a good software including installation, on the other hand I am a bit lost with the syntax. Look that I'm a programmer since about 25 years, and I found quite difficult to learn lilypond syntax (I must be a very bad programmer ! and anyway not familiar with lisp/prolog like syntaxes). I looked carefully at the tutorial and guide, and found them very good. It covers half of the important things to know, which is quite normal for a tutorial. But the other half was very difficult to find : For instance, It took me a long time reading to find how to make a score with first 1 instrument, and after 10 bars add a new instrument. Why sometimes I need "\score" and sometimes it works without. Also I could not declare variables in the middle of a score or between 2 staves, I had to put them all at the beginning before "\score" which is a problem. I have problem also with sound level in midi output (chords are too lound and I do not hear instruments)... This mail is not to ask solutions for these problems, but if there is a good soul that maintain the doc, these are suggestions. Thanks Mats Bengtsson wrote: I'm afraid that the biggest obstacle to get started with LilyPond is not the installation but learning to master the input syntax and semantics. Unfortunately, there are still many aspects of input syntax and semantics that reflect the way the program works internally, which may be far from intuitive if you think in terms of music typesetting rather than computer science. Certainly, installation issues are important and it's well- known that most program packages have far more bugs in the installation procedures than in the main programs, but in the case of LilyPond, I think you miss the point, in terms of major usability thresholds, if you focus too much on installation issues. Note also that the Windows installers didn't exist half a year ago, whereas the program has existed for almost 10 years, so I expect major improvements in the coming months. /Mats Linda Seltzer wrote: User Experience engineering does not require a GUI or an abandonment of the programming and typesetting approach. It does not require the abandonment of providing detailed features. What it requires is that the language and documentation are clear and that functionality doesn't require time- consuming work arounds. For example, if one is running on a Windows environment, one should not have to install another editor and worry about getting that to work, and the outputs should be easily usable and readable by other programs without having to install other kinds of programs and accessories. It means that everything is made simple and clear for the user. There are users, unlike myself, who have never done any programming. Simplicity and clarity are as important as providing desired features. I am saying this as someone whose software has been incorporated into the Sprint network operations system, the AT&T network, the Silicon Graphics workstations, the Coast Guard communications system and other products. I have seen development projects sink and swim, and I am merely discussing what will "swim" if it is to become highly profitable at some point. If I were saying this at a profit-oriented company no one would disagree, let alone generate a flame war. I have seen multi-million projects go down the drain because the management didn't pay attention to issues such as marketing or the user experience. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user -- Riccardo Cohen Articque Les Roches 37230 Fondettes France web = http://www.articque.com tel: +33 02 47 49 90 49 fax: +33 02 47 49 91 49 ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: User Experience Engineering
Ian Hawthorn writes: > The biggest improvement to initial usability on the windows platform > would be quite simple. If lilypond is invoked without arguments (i.e. > by clicking the icon on the desktop) do something ... anything ... at > minimum display some documentation as to usage. Else ... > What do you mean? Does double clicking on the icon not bring up notepad with instructions? Jan. -- Jan Nieuwenhuizen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | GNU LilyPond - The music typesetter http://www.xs4all.nl/~jantien | http://www.lilypond.org ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: User Experience Engineering
Mats Bengtsson wrote: terms of major usability thresholds, if you focus too much on installation issues. Note also that the Windows installers didn't exist half a year ago, whereas the program has existed for almost 10 years, so I expect major improvements in the coming months. I don't, at least not in the windows department. The focus of the past weeks has been on getting a unified build environment. In practice this means that binaries will be available very quickly after a release is announced, and for all platforms at the same time. -- Han-Wen Nienhuys - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanwen ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: User Experience Engineering
I see, didnt noticed that eariler. Installers could detect if any JRE is available, then download/install them if needed. (commerial installers like http://www.advancedinstaller.com/ or http://www.denova.com/ does that), if not make a notice to download it from sun's page. As for whether installer can uninstall other applications, its yes (esp if you have admin privillages in windows). An example is Google pack - http://pack.google.com A batch file can be very written quickly eg.. :: LilypondPackageInstaller.bat start /wait "ftp://blabla.org/java5.exe"; start /wait "http://blabla.org/lilypond.exe"; start /wait "http://blabla.org/jedit.exe"; start /wait "http://blabla.org/lilytool.exe"; But can the user might be confused after installers after another installer popups is a question. Maybe setting up a webpage like "Ultimate guide to lilypond on windows" with links to all the installers can be as easy but I thought the flash tutorials http://web.interware.hu/fodber/lilytut/ was quite good already. Joshua >> As for free open source installers, maybe IzPack Java Software >> http://www.izforge.com/ could be used,. >-- begin quote from website -- >IzPack is an installers generator for the Java platform. It produces >lightweight installers that can be run on any operating system > >_where a Java virtual machine_ is available. >-- end quote -- >No it can't.. :-) But it shouldn't be hard to find another one.. > >Anoter question.. Can one deinstaller automatically dinstall other >packages (this one should deinstall JRE (is this a good idea?), jedit >and lilypond).. Perhaps it's easier to write a JS or bat or whatever >script which downloads the installer and launches them in order.. >(with them hopefully not asking "restart computer" before having >finished..) *g* > >Marc ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: User Experience Engineering
The biggest improvement to initial usability on the windows platform would be quite simple. If lilypond is invoked without arguments (i.e. by clicking the icon on the desktop) do something ... anything ... at minimum display some documentation as to usage. Else ... ... hmmm ... lilypond looks like it could do exactly what I want. ahah ... new lilypond icon on desktop ... cute ... nothing happens blasted thing isn't working ... looks like I'll have to buy finale after all. Who these days reads the documentation first. Most people expect to download and run, and then have the software itself explain how it should be used. Lilyponds silent exit when invoked for the first time without arguments is extremely unfriendly given these expectations. Best Wishes Ian H Joshua Koo wrote: I see, didnt noticed that eariler. Installers could detect if any JRE is available, then download/install them if needed. (commerial installers like http://www.advancedinstaller.com/ or http://www.denova.com/ does that), if not make a notice to download it from sun's page. As for whether installer can uninstall other applications, its yes (esp if you have admin privillages in windows). An example is Google pack - http://pack.google.com A batch file can be very written quickly eg.. :: LilypondPackageInstaller.bat start /wait "ftp://blabla.org/java5.exe" start /wait "http://blabla.org/lilypond.exe" start /wait "http://blabla.org/jedit.exe" start /wait "http://blabla.org/lilytool.exe" But can the user might be confused after installers after another installer popups is a question. Maybe setting up a webpage like "Ultimate guide to lilypond on windows" with links to all the installers can be as easy but I thought the flash tutorials http://web.interware.hu/fodber/lilytut/ was quite good already. Joshua As for free open source installers, maybe IzPack Java Software http://www.izforge.com/ could be used,. -- begin quote from website -- IzPack is an installers generator for the Java platform. It produces lightweight installers that can be run on any operating system _where a Java virtual machine_ is available. -- end quote -- No it can't.. :-) But it shouldn't be hard to find another one.. Anoter question.. Can one deinstaller automatically dinstall other packages (this one should deinstall JRE (is this a good idea?), jedit and lilypond).. Perhaps it's easier to write a JS or bat or whatever script which downloads the installer and launches them in order.. (with them hopefully not asking "restart computer" before having finished..) *g* Marc ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: User Experience Engineering
I'm afraid that the biggest obstacle to get started with LilyPond is not the installation but learning to master the input syntax and semantics. Unfortunately, there are still many aspects of input syntax and semantics that reflect the way the program works internally, which may be far from intuitive if you think in terms of music typesetting rather than computer science. Certainly, installation issues are important and it's well- known that most program packages have far more bugs in the installation procedures than in the main programs, but in the case of LilyPond, I think you miss the point, in terms of major usability thresholds, if you focus too much on installation issues. Note also that the Windows installers didn't exist half a year ago, whereas the program has existed for almost 10 years, so I expect major improvements in the coming months. /Mats Linda Seltzer wrote: User Experience engineering does not require a GUI or an abandonment of the programming and typesetting approach. It does not require the abandonment of providing detailed features. What it requires is that the language and documentation are clear and that functionality doesn't require time- consuming work arounds. For example, if one is running on a Windows environment, one should not have to install another editor and worry about getting that to work, and the outputs should be easily usable and readable by other programs without having to install other kinds of programs and accessories. It means that everything is made simple and clear for the user. There are users, unlike myself, who have never done any programming. Simplicity and clarity are as important as providing desired features. I am saying this as someone whose software has been incorporated into the Sprint network operations system, the AT&T network, the Silicon Graphics workstations, the Coast Guard communications system and other products. I have seen development projects sink and swim, and I am merely discussing what will "swim" if it is to become highly profitable at some point. If I were saying this at a profit-oriented company no one would disagree, let alone generate a flame war. I have seen multi-million projects go down the drain because the management didn't pay attention to issues such as marketing or the user experience. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: User Experience Engineering
> As for free open source installers, maybe IzPack Java Software > http://www.izforge.com/ could be used,. -- begin quote from website -- IzPack is an installers generator for the Java platform. It produces lightweight installers that can be run on any operating system _where a Java virtual machine_ is available. -- end quote -- No it can't.. :-) But it shouldn't be hard to find another one.. Anoter question.. Can one deinstaller automatically dinstall other packages (this one should deinstall JRE (is this a good idea?), jedit and lilypond).. Perhaps it's easier to write a JS or bat or whatever script which downloads the installer and launches them in order.. (with them hopefully not asking "restart computer" before having finished..) *g* Marc ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: User Experience Engineering
I'm not sure if Sun Java licensing allows include JRE 1.5, but creating a windows installer with nsis or java installer with something else is an easy task, so contributions are very welcome. Bert ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: User Experience Engineering
> >> AFAIK, no java environment ships with windows, so if you want it to work >> out-of-the-box, then, yes you would need to include java in the download. There used to be a Microsoft JVM, but that's history. > >There does (or did?) but outdated and stripped (enough that some java >applets work... But the Java tree component wasn't included some years >ago.. ;) So JRE from sun is needed to work properly AFAIK. >I was thinking of the effort to moving jEdit to JRE 1.5.. That did brake >some apps on gentoo linux and some plugins in jEdit AFAIK. > I dont really get that.. If you upgrade your JRE to 1.5, old applications shouldnt break... unless your old JREs are not removed nicely. But if the application (like lilytool) is compiled using Java 5, then there might be problems running with older java VMs. >So I'm not sure wether it would be a nice idea providing JRE 1.5, >lilypond, jEdit, lil4jedit in one installer.. >This installer should contain JRE installer and launch it >automatically.. and do the same with jEdit? and contain a readme on how >to upgrade things manually (see jEdit plugins and so on..) > >Anyway, would anyone be interested?? If there are a couple of people I >can try putting some effort into this task.. But as as noone is >complaining.. ;-) I think its a great idea! It reminds me of XAMPP http://www.apachefriends.org/en/xampp.html (Apache + MySQL, PHP and Perl ++ ... on win/*nix/mac/solaris) Thinking of a packaging, there's a rough idea of what to include and their sizes. JRE 5 = ~7.1 - 20 MB lilypond = ~10MB jEdit = ~2MB lilyTool = ~1MB LilyJHelp= ~15MB Overheads = ~??MB Total = ~ 50MB I support this idea, hopfully it can become a 1 step installation to a "complete" music typesetting package. As for free open source installers, maybe IzPack Java Software http://www.izforge.com/ could be used,. > >Happy New not much grown up yet year ! > >Marc Wishing you all the best for this year too! Joshua ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: User Experience Engineering
I'm using Win XP. I use 'Notepad++' editor which is more versatile than 'Notepad' and seems ideal for editing Lilypond programs. Regards to you all, Alan -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.15/223 - Release Date: 6/01/2006 ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: User Experience Engineering
> AFAIK, no java environment ships with windows, so if you want it to work > out-of-the-box, then, yes you would need to include java in the download. There does (or did?) but outdated and stripped (enough that some java applets work... But the Java tree component wasn't included some years ago.. ;) So JRE from sun is needed to work properly AFAIK. I was thinking of the effort to moving jEdit to JRE 1.5.. That did brake some apps on gentoo linux and some plugins in jEdit AFAIK. So I'm not sure wether it would be a nice idea providing JRE 1.5, lilypond, jEdit, lil4jedit in one installer.. This installer should contain JRE installer and launch it automatically.. and do the same with jEdit? and contain a readme on how to upgrade things manually (see jEdit plugins and so on..) Anyway, would anyone be interested?? If there are a couple of people I can try putting some effort into this task.. But as as noone is complaining.. ;-) Happy New not much grown up yet year ! Marc ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: User Experience Engineering
Computers really aren't making the world paperless. (Unless we are in Matrix) I wont underestimate the importance of paper (I even enjoy folding paper aeroplanes, at one extend I was fired from my secondary school choir for "not respecting the composers" when I used some scores to fold an airplane), but for the past years in polytechnic, I have been typing more than I write, looking at powerpoint slides more than I look at the whiteboard, looking at pdfs more than I see printed notes. Each composer have different way of composing. Mozart could take a pen and churn out a piece of work like how you would write "Hello World". Mahler and others could not compose without their piano. I don't compose, maybe just a little of arrangements. I usually try something on the piano, then repeat the rub and pencil process(some dust slipping down the piano). Thats why I would love a click and drag approach. (If I were Beethoven, my home would be filled with crushed, torn manuscripts, broken pens... If Beethoven were me, he might just need a good optical mouse with sufficient warranty ;) my $0.02, Joshua > >Not being the sort who can compose at a computer (I'm a pen(cil) and paper >man), I can't really understand this sentiment. I can respect it in >others, but I can't understand it. Typesetting software, in my opinion, is >not the best environment for composing; it is, however, an ideal >environment for taking something that's already composed and making it >look professional. I'm very comfortable using Finale, at least as >comfortable as I am with Lilypond. I still can't compose in it, in spite >of the fact that it is a (more) visually-based entry system. > ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: User Experience Engineering
Perhaps only providing one installer installing lilypond and jedit + lily4jedit, good idea, and add java-sun for windows in the package. :-) Personally I use Scite http://www.scintilla.org but you must read some help and configure manually the options. For windows user (after installing Lilypond): a simple text editor (free) which can easy launch Lilypond is notepad2 http://www.flos-freeware.ch/notepad2.html Just unzip and run-it; chose uft-8 code in the file menu, write your Lilypond scrip, save-it and touch ctrl+l Your file.ly, log ps and pdf are in the same folder. What is it more simple ? -- Martial http://cathemline.org ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: User Experience Engineering
Citerar Marc Weber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Perhaps only providing one installer installing lilypond and jedit + > lily4jedit, perhaps with the default settings to show the error list > pluigin docked at the bottom or the like would have saved those 10 min > "administration time" ... in case it works out of the box.. ;-) > Then you don't have to install anything additional.. This is a nice idea. It is however not the job of the lilypond development team. Lilypond dev should IMHO focus on making lilypond work well. If there is enough need for a bundled jedit+lilypond package, then anyone could create and maintain that package (it's all free software after all). I'm sure the lilypond developers would be happy to link to that package from the downloads page. > Perhaps it would be also possible to scan registry for looking for adobe > reader (which is a default application on windows I think).. > But then you would have to update the installer either if lily4jedit, > lilypond or jedit has advanced.. That's like downloading a new > distribition just to install one update.. You can compare this to the autopackages for linux. There is one package called "install", containing all sorts of things, and one called "upgrade", which only contains lilypond. > Then you have all: Woring documentation (through lily4jedit), working > compiling chain.. and so on .. The only drawback: You need to speak > English.. ;-) > Would you also have to include java JRE 1.5? not sure at the moment.. AFAIK, no java environment ships with windows, so if you want it to work out-of-the-box, then, yes you would need to include java in the download. Erik ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: User Experience Engineering
Citerar Marc Weber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Perhaps only providing one installer installing lilypond and jedit + > lily4jedit, perhaps with the default settings to show the error list > pluigin docked at the bottom or the like would have saved those 10 min > "administration time" ... in case it works out of the box.. ;-) > Then you don't have to install anything additional.. This is a nice idea. It is however not the job of the lilypond development team. Lilypond dev should IMHO focus on making lilypond work well. If there is enough need for a bundled jedit+lilypond package, then anyone could create and maintain that package (it's all free software after all). I'm sure the lilypond developers would be happy to link to that package from the downloads page. > Perhaps it would be also possible to scan registry for looking for adobe > reader (which is a default application on windows I think).. > But then you would have to update the installer either if lily4jedit, > lilypond or jedit has advanced.. That's like downloading a new > distribition just to install one update.. You can compare this to the autopackages for linux. There is one package called "install", containing all sorts of things, and one called "upgrade", which only contains lilypond. > Then you have all: Woring documentation (through lily4jedit), working > compiling chain.. and so on .. The only drawback: You need to speak > English.. ;-) > Would you also have to include java JRE 1.5? not sure at the moment.. AFAIK, no java environment ships with windows, so if you want it to work out-of-the-box, then, yes you would need to include java in the download. Erik ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: User Experience Engineering
Hi @ll! I've read the whole thread about this topic.. I wonder why you are just talking about gui..? Linda hasen't mentionied this anywhere in her original post (?) On Thu, Jan 05, 2006 at 03:54:48PM -0500, Linda Seltzer wrote: [..] > A smooth user interface employing the standard already-debugged platforms, > such as Notepad and Word on Windows, with everything bug free, is more > important than more and more detailed features, which can be added later. > > Every 10 minues spent system administrating and installing things is 10 > minutes that real work doesn't get accomplished. [..] My response also relies on the other posts of this thread... Perhaps only providing one installer installing lilypond and jedit + lily4jedit, perhaps with the default settings to show the error list pluigin docked at the bottom or the like would have saved those 10 min "administration time" ... in case it works out of the box.. ;-) Then you don't have to install anything additional.. Perhaps it would be also possible to scan registry for looking for adobe reader (which is a default application on windows I think).. But then you would have to update the installer either if lily4jedit, lilypond or jedit has advanced.. That's like downloading a new distribition just to install one update.. Then you have all: Woring documentation (through lily4jedit), working compiling chain.. and so on .. The only drawback: You need to speak English.. ;-) Would you also have to include java JRE 1.5? not sure at the moment.. Aeh... Why use Word or Notepad if you can't print? So should notepad and Word be shipping with printer drivers and printers hardwore or with pdf export filters like openoffice? (the last point: yes, they should ;-) Marc ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: User Experience Engineering
On Sat, 07 Jan 2006 19:14:18 -0500, D Josiah Boothby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Sun, 8 Jan 2006, Joshua Koo wrote: I have no say in Lilypond development, but I do have similar thoughts I would like to share (well as maybe a more bias windows user). It seems to me that part of the issue that's at play in this thread is a matter of porting software from a Unix-based environment to Windows. Unix/Linux philosophy is very accepting of finding whatever editor works best for the user for the given application (in this case, creating lilypond files), where the Windows philosophy seems to be that if it If after all the purpose of lilypond is produce beautiful scores, why cant the input be visual? I dont have the answer. For me, if I wanted to compose, in my mind would be thinking where the notes on the score for entry, rather than what are the pitch names. Not being the sort who can compose at a computer (I'm a pen(cil) and paper man), I can't really understand this sentiment. I can respect it in others, but I can't understand it. Typesetting software, in my opinion, is not the best environment for composing; it is, however, an ideal environment for taking something that's already composed and making it look professional. I'm very comfortable using Finale, at least as comfortable as I am with Lilypond. I still can't compose in it, in spite of the fact that it is a (more) visually-based entry system. As a composer, I don't prefer using the mouse or the text keyboard when "composing at a computer." My current preferred method is a MIDI keyboard and Digital Performer, using simultaneously the MIDI (like a piano roll) and QuickScribe (staff notation) viewers, but focusing mostly on the MIDI view. While, as Joshua points out, there are limitations to using text to represent music while composing, there are also limitations to staff notation, both in its description of the musical sounds (for example, staff notation requires decisions regarding chromatic and rhythmic spelling, where MIDI representation in DP is spelling-independent and visual distances are consistent for any spelling of an interval or duration) and in the efficiency of entering the music, particularly when armed with nothing but a mouse. Thus, I have found Sibelius, and especially Finale, to be limiting when composing, especially during the experimental stages, where I move things around a lot. A final manifestation of a passage I compose in Sibelius ends up with a ton of ties and double-sharps and the like after all the transpositions, inversions, and moves. The MIDI representation in DP is not that way, nor is the QuickScribe notation which is derived from it. Sibelius and Finale are least problematic when the piece is finished and I am creating a final score. However, at that point, Lilypond is more intuitive, faster, and produces a better score, so I use it instead. And, as others have mentioned, typesetting from scratch in Lilypond (after composing a piece in DP) is as fast or faster than cleaning up a MIDI import from DP into Lilypond, Finale, or Sibelius. I think this process I use is another example of the UNIX/Linux way of doing things. Some have mentioned the ability to use one of many programs for the same task, depending on the task or the user; but I think another aspect is choosing a different combination of single-task programs depending on the overall task and the user. For theory graphics, I combine Lilypond with Adobe Illustrator. For composing, I use Digital Performer and Lilypond. For typesetting parts and doing Schenker graphs, just Lilypond. The contrast is the typical Windows user who wants one program to do it all. I think that many believe that will be cheaper and easier to learn; however, my work has been more efficient since splitting up the tasks into the programs which perform them best, and I think the programs have been easier to manage when I have less to remember about each particular interface. Additionally, Digital Performer + Lilypond costs about the same as Finale or Sibelius (academic), and Lilypond + Illustrator is less than $100 (academic), for those who don't need MIDI, but want more advanced GUI graphics than is easily done with Lilypond alone. So, the a la carte way of doing things is not more expensive, or more difficult; but it produces better results. It also will allow some to apply a "visual" way of doing things to Lilypond's beautiful notation, without changing the typesetting environment for other users. In my opinion, Lilypond, Digital Performer, and Adobe Illustrator are all the best at what they do; or at least the best at what I use them for. All of them have an efficient and useful interface, even if they all take some time to learn. And they work together well enough that there is no good reason to make Lilypond try to do what DP, Illust
Re: User Experience Engineering
On Sun, 8 Jan 2006, Joshua Koo wrote: I have no say in Lilypond development, but I do have similar thoughts I would like to share (well as maybe a more bias windows user). It seems to me that part of the issue that's at play in this thread is a matter of porting software from a Unix-based environment to Windows. Unix/Linux philosophy is very accepting of finding whatever editor works best for the user for the given application (in this case, creating lilypond files), where the Windows philosophy seems to be that if it doesn't automatically work with whatever is already installed, then it must be broken. If, as has already been pointed out, there were (more) people helping develop lilypond for Windows, perhaps this would be less of an issue. But on the subject of editors, I know one programmer who likes using notepad for coding (but that's only because he does a lot of work on other people's computers without knowing if they have his favorite editor available already). There are dozens of programmers editors available for Windows. I remember liking Note-Tab back when I was still on Windows, but I don't know if (a) it still exists, or (b) if it's any good for lilypond. ... If after all the purpose of lilypond is produce beautiful scores, why cant the input be visual? I dont have the answer. For me, if I wanted to compose, in my mind would be thinking where the notes on the score for entry, rather than what are the pitch names. Not being the sort who can compose at a computer (I'm a pen(cil) and paper man), I can't really understand this sentiment. I can respect it in others, but I can't understand it. Typesetting software, in my opinion, is not the best environment for composing; it is, however, an ideal environment for taking something that's already composed and making it look professional. I'm very comfortable using Finale, at least as comfortable as I am with Lilypond. I still can't compose in it, in spite of the fact that it is a (more) visually-based entry system. For example, take 3d modelling/rendering software. I do appreciate the beauty of pov-ray rendered images, but it seems to me very painstaking to type the syntax, coordinates and everything just to generate each image. Could you imagine how if its used create a 3d movie? But I believe there are a couple of good frontends for it. If you have seen any relatively experienced user work in 3ds max (or maya, lightwave, blender3d..), its really like the mouse becomes a hand in the computer, and moulding 3d models from blocks like how pots are moulded from clay. Again, this reminds me of the Unix-ish software philosophy: different tools for different jobs. Pov-Ray is not ideal for all sorts of image work, and is certainly not the best tool for every user. It is a very powerful tool in the hands of someone for whom it makes sense and who will use it for its intended purposes. ... Till then, take your pick on the wide choices of score setting software, and even if still chose lilypond at the end, you can find the converters (abc, midi,musicxml, nwc.. ) or many others which can produce lilypond files (lilypad, gscore, denemo, noteedit, rosegarden, harmony assistance..), and issnt that the unix philosophy? Perhaps. I've found that I have to correct a lot when I import from Rosegarden, and that I end up saving considerable time if I just go from beginning to end in whatever editor I happen to be using that day. LSR and the templates in the manual are more useful to me than any graphical entry system could be. But hitting the point of unix philosophy again, you're right on. Additionally, it's a matter of choice. I used the KDE Advanced Text Editor last week because I was in KDE and it was convenient. A couple weeks ago, I was using Emacs because I was editing a score that resided on my home computer, but I was at my parents' house. I hear jEdit with lilyTool is quite useful, and this is available for any OS that can use java 1.5. Josiah ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: User Experience Engineering
Hi, I have no say in Lilypond development, but I do have similar thoughts I would like to share (well as maybe a more bias windows user). Perhaps what some of us imagined before tried using Lilypond was that you just have to do a few clicking, and out comes the score. That was what I thought, and it was a initial shock for me that lilypond looks like programming with a syntax to learn, and "painstaking" just to enter notes, for such lazy and slow, mouse-addicted typist. If after all the purpose of lilypond is produce beautiful scores, why cant the input be visual? I dont have the answer. For me, if I wanted to compose, in my mind would be thinking where the notes on the score for entry, rather than what are the pitch names. For example, take 3d modelling/rendering software. I do appreciate the beauty of pov-ray rendered images, but it seems to me very painstaking to type the syntax, coordinates and everything just to generate each image. Could you imagine how if its used create a 3d movie? But I believe there are a couple of good frontends for it. If you have seen any relatively experienced user work in 3ds max (or maya, lightwave, blender3d..), its really like the mouse becomes a hand in the computer, and moulding 3d models from blocks like how pots are moulded from clay. In the meanwhile, I'm trying how I can enter notes visually in LilyTool, sort like a frontend, you click stuff on a staff and it inserts a extract of lilypond code maybe, but then I not too good at programming either. Till then, take your pick on the wide choices of score setting software, and even if still chose lilypond at the end, you can find the converters (abc, midi,musicxml, nwc.. ) or many others which can produce lilypond files (lilypad, gscore, denemo, noteedit, rosegarden, harmony assistance..), and issnt that the unix philosophy? Joshua >Message: 6 >Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 15:54:48 -0500 (EST) >From: "Linda Seltzer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: User Experience Engineering >To: lilypond-user@gnu.org >Message-ID: > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 > >Dear Friends, > >Having previously worked at AT&T Labs, where I was a member of the User >Experience Forum, I would like to make a few comments as a relative >outsider seeing the Lilypond project for the first time. This is a great >endeavor and the software output is beautiful. > >I would greatly encourage the project to focus on the user interface and >the user experience if this is to catch on in a large way. > >Having to install separate editors (and who knows what bugs that will >bring and what other mailing lists one will have to subscribe to...) or >get into the system with DOS commands, and to understand what is wrong if >the flags are wrong, etc. does not constitute user interface engineering. > >A smooth user interface employing the standard already-debugged platforms, >such as Notepad and Word on Windows, with everything bug free, is more >important than more and more detailed features, which can be added later. > >Every 10 minues spent system administrating and installing things is 10 >minutes that real work doesn't get accomplished. > >User experience engineering is just as important as other areas of >software development. > >Sincerely, >Linda Seltzer > > ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: User Experience Engineering
Citerar Linda Seltzer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > I would greatly encourage the project to focus on the user interface and > the user experience if this is to catch on in a large way. > > Having to install separate editors (and who knows what bugs that will > bring and what other mailing lists one will have to subscribe to...) or > get into the system with DOS commands, and to understand what is wrong if > the flags are wrong, etc. does not constitute user interface engineering. Hi, Your criticism is quite valid, IMHO. However, as far as I have observed, lilypond does not seem to be ready for getting a full-blown GUI just yet. The developers seem to be very aware of this; e.g., Han-Wen has written a proof-of-concept GUI called ikebana, which is too slow for practical use. This indicates that there are some problems in lilypond that need to be solved before a useful GUI can be created. One problem is that it's difficult to know what the right APIs should look like: if an officially supported GUI is written too early, it is likely that lots of reworking needs to be done due to poorly designed APIs. My observations of the recent development, is that deep changes under the hood, often tend to eliminate obstacles that prohibit the development of a GUI. (and as others already mentioned, third-party products like Denemo and Rosegarden could always implement lilypond-compatible GUIs). Erik ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: User Experience Engineering
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 6 Jan 2006, at 10:57 am, fiëé visuëlle wrote: There's already LilyPad for MacOS X (http://edbaskerville.com/software/lilypad/), LilyPond's own simple GUI (at least on MacOS X) and jEdit's LilyPond mode (http://lily4jedit.sourceforge.net/). And as a GUI tool there's at least RoseGarden on Linux (http://www.rosegardenmusic.com/), that can export LilyPond code. Some other GUI tools might be able to export MusicXML that could be converted to LilyPond code (never tried that myself), or you could go via MIDI (but the midi2ly code is rather ugly). Don't forget Denemo (http://denemo.sourceforge.net/) which is maintained by Adam Tee and others. It's a WhatYouSeeAllYouWant thing, i.e. it's really ugly on screen until the you press the lilypond export button, then the output's beautiful as we'd all expect. Apparently, there's a DarwinPort of it. Also RPM, and of course a debian package. No Windows port AFAIK, at last since v0.5 and the sound didn't work on that. I'll stick to emacs myself, but some folk might like it :) Nick/. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (Darwin) iD8DBQFDvmyNFo+kGmUnzkQRAs1xAKCN2CS3SQGZTyXrhR7oGK/Eh+TB9QCgha3q uLwWFY8s74uS5BlTKoR7lXk= =3Qfn -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: User Experience Engineering
Am 2006-01-06 um 09:43 schrieb Riccardo Cohen: A question about that : is it possible to make a program that links with lilypond ? , in that case, it it quite easy for me to make a GUI with an editor, a "build" button and a pdf launcher (on mac&win&linux with wxWidgets). I do not like to launch external programs, but if there is no lilypond library, I can also make it through an "execute" (which is a bit more difficult). There's already LilyPad for MacOS X (http://edbaskerville.com/ software/lilypad/), LilyPond's own simple GUI (at least on MacOS X) and jEdit's LilyPond mode (http://lily4jedit.sourceforge.net/). And as a GUI tool there's at least RoseGarden on Linux (http:// www.rosegardenmusic.com/), that can export LilyPond code. Some other GUI tools might be able to export MusicXML that could be converted to LilyPond code (never tried that myself), or you could go via MIDI (but the midi2ly code is rather ugly). As Paul Scott wrote, in a UNIXy OS you would call LilyPond via the shell, on Windows you might be able to access the executable via COM. What language do you prefer? - Java: help updating & enhancing LilyTool4jEdit - Python: use lilylib (look at the Python scripts in LilyPond distribution) - Lisp: Why do you need a GUI? (Is there any GUI library for any Lisp?) ;-) Another remark about "User Experience": We are the users, our experience counts. And we users like our LilyPond experience! :-) Greetlings from Lake Constance --- fiëé visuëlle Henning Hraban Ramm http://www.fiee.net http://angerweit.tikon.ch/lieder/ http://www.cacert.org (I'm an assurer) ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: User Experience Engineering
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 5 Jan 2006, at 9:31 pm, Han-Wen Nienhuys wrote: Keep in mind that every 10 minutes we save you on doing system administration, typically takes us 8 hours of debugging, fiddling with cross-compilers and testing. Add to that that Windows by far is our least favorite platform: I'll go on record saying that the entire development team actually loathes and despises Windows. Hear hear! (not that I'm on the development team, I hasten to add) If you have to use Windows, Linda, and you really don't since you could install Linux over the top of it on almost any Windows-compatible hardware you actually control, the best thing to do is to not to use any Microsoft applications if you can avoid it. Install new web browsers, editors, everything. I speak from bitter and current experience as I'm trying to write a web site with css that actually works on Internet Explorer: it flagrantly mis-implements the web standards and provides Microsoft-only "specials" to "fix" them. The Scilab experience is instructive in this case. They spent ages making a Windows version, then when it eventually just about started to work, all they got from the Windows community was complaints about missing functionality (and in contrast to the other communities, no contributed code, in spite of the allegedly large user-base). Caltech alumni especially should be aware of this. Tut tut. :) Nick/. http://cmt.gla.ac.uk If you're concerned about user-experience, I recommend you to choose between any of the following options - switch over to MacOS - sponsor the development team for Windows usability work - volunteer time to help engineer the Windows release Regards, -- Han-Wen Nienhuys - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanwen ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (Darwin) iD8DBQFDvkToFo+kGmUnzkQRArQwAJ4ppjXK+pZoAAOdfbnFmBcnLk69UQCfTlfR SXL+RrfbK16PyhurLNRtlo4= =AbtF -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: User Experience Engineering
Riccardo Cohen wrote: A question about that : is it possible to make a program that links with lilypond ? , in that case, it it quite easy for me to make a GUI with an editor, a "build" button and a pdf launcher (on mac&win&linux with wxWidgets). I do not like to launch external programs, but if there is no lilypond library, I can also make it through an "execute" (which is a bit more difficult). Since Linux and Mac (through FreeBSD) are essentially command line based you can do whatever you want with scripts (to launch Lily or a PDF viewer) which can be called in many ways. In MS Windows you may need Cygwin or something. Paul Scott ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: User Experience Engineering
A question about that : is it possible to make a program that links with lilypond ? , in that case, it it quite easy for me to make a GUI with an editor, a "build" button and a pdf launcher (on mac&win&linux with wxWidgets). I do not like to launch external programs, but if there is no lilypond library, I can also make it through an "execute" (which is a bit more difficult). Gilles wrote: Hello. I would greatly encourage the project to focus on the user interface and the user experience if this is to catch on in a large way. Having to install separate editors (and who knows what bugs that will bring and what other mailing lists one will have to subscribe to...) or get into the system with DOS commands, and to understand what is wrong if the flags are wrong, etc. does not constitute user interface engineering. A smooth user interface employing the standard already-debugged platforms, such as Notepad and Word on Windows, with everything bug free, is more important than more and more detailed features, which can be added later. Every 10 minues spent system administrating and installing things is 10 minutes that real work doesn't get accomplished. User experience engineering is just as important as other areas of software development. Well, that would usually be enough to start a flame war ;-) [Especially, that part about "Windows" and "bug free"...] Please note that LilyPond is not about (graphical) user interface, but about music engraving. The LilyPond interface with the user is the text file describing the music to be typeset. Other projects (e.g. editors and GUI) propose tools which you can choose from in order to fulfill particular wishes (not needs!). Best, Gilles ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user -- Riccardo Cohen Articque Les Roches 37230 Fondettes France web = http://www.articque.com tel: +33 02 47 49 90 49 fax: +33 02 47 49 91 49 ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: User Experience Engineering
As a regular user of Sibelius and Lilypond I can safely say that Lilypond tends to come out on top. Sibelius while a very beautiful and attractive program GUI wise, it is let down by this very fact! (same as Finale). Sibelius cannot make adjustments on the fly as each note or lyric is inputted. Sibelius is also unable adjust the distance between a lyric and the lowest note or the distance between a dynamic mark and the stave below. All this needs to be done by hand a very tiresome experience when adjusting lengthy scores. The ability to simply type in a code and have the program make all the decisions regarding layout is a great time saver!! Sure there is a steep learning curve to really use the program but that's the same for Sibelius and if you want to be really sadistic there's Finale. When you consider that you pay at least $400-600 for these programs then Lilypond wins out on usability and getting the job done hands down. Trent ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: User Experience Engineering
Another one... My Mac used to run Linux PPC and MacOS Classic parallely (MoL) until finally MacOS X came out. I just *need* the features of some Unix (tools, shell etc.) plus the features of a nice GUI. I studied typesetter and I do most of my layout work with InDesign, because it's best for that. But I also use TeX (ConTeXt) where that's best - e.g. for books and everything that doesn't need a heavy varying layout or for automatable tasks like database stuff. As I looked after a program to typset music (and couldn't afford Finale, Sibelius etc. for a few songs), I came across HarmonyAssistant by Myriad -- it already won a prize for bad GUI design (I don't think it's so bad, but anyway), but it's a graphical music program with decent output in print and audio. But for me as a typesetter its PostScript output just isn't good enough. I knew of LilyPond from my former Linux times and decided to try it again (after I despaired of getting a running MusiXTeX), and I'm sure I'll stay. :-) For I mostly typeset song sheets (and that's one thing LilyPond isn't sufficiently good at), I need to integrate the LilyPond scores with something other - include PDFs in InDesign or use ConTeXt's new LilyPond integration. I consider myself a programmer, but even my girlfriend who needs to imagine programs as little gnomes doing stuff, likes to write down her fiddle tunes in LilyPond code - it's nearly the same as she used before manually. Ok, I do the formatting for her, and she get's confused if I call it "source code", but hey, she can handle notes, chords, repeats and knows what to do, and the simple interface of LilyPad and its preview are just right for her. A graphical music editor would be just too slow - either you must use a MIDI keyboard (none of us plays piano) or learn the mapping on a normal computer keyboard (not suitable if you don't use it very often) or set every note by mouse (slw) - so a short ASCII notation like LilyPond's is the fastest possibility, at least for us. And with LilyPond's Scheme I finally got a reason to learn Lisp... (I prefer Python.) ;-) So, hail to the wizards - keep up your great work and don't let you distract by GUI stuff. Greetlings from Lake Constance --- fiëé visuëlle Henning Hraban Ramm http://www.fiee.net http://angerweit.tikon.ch/lieder/ http://www.cacert.org (I'm an assurer) ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: User Experience Engineering
> such as Notepad and Word on Windows, with everything bug free, hmm... lilypond + MS Word? file.ly.doc? Basic instead of Scheme? strange... 8-/ /ak/ ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: User Experience Engineering
Dear Linda, I whole-heartedly agree with your comments about user experience being very important to adoption of any user-oriented computing product. One problem with GUIs is that they MUST be tailored to the way the user wants to, or needs to be trained to, work. Thus, the challenge becomes providing a comfortable environment - one that fits the way the developer is convinced will be convenient. The spin-off of this problem is that the developer resources then become diverted from core functionality to interface functionality. My favorite example is the plethora of accounting packages ... by GAAP principals, and by law, accounting within a country must conform to basic standards. Therefore Simply Accounting, Quick Books, Microsoft Money, etc. all MUST do exactly the same thing internally. Therefore the only difference is in the interface - and that is driven entirely by perceived convenience. Sadly, the [lack of] quality inherent in these products because of diversion of scare developer resources is well documented. Over the past 15 years, we have seen a number of changes: client-server; 3-tier; and most recently web-services and the service oriented architecture. In all of these, there is a clear separation between the functionality of the user interface and the functionality of the service provider (server or web service). In terms that might make more sense to your suggestion, Lilypond might best be considered a very advanced music typesetting service provider. The API (application programmer's interface) happens to be one of more .ly data files. There is, perhaps unfortunately, no supplied sample user interface - as those of us who have spent time with Lilypond have found that manual interaction directly at the API level is ultimately faster and more flexible than attempting to use a graphical UI. (I have also found this to be true in 90%+ of all applications I've used - command line IS faster, more robust, more flexible, less resource intensive and less conducive to error and physical [health] problems such as RSI, than GUI. It's just not as 'pleasant'.) As long as the API is accessible, there are opportunities for others to develop client portions - many in fact, that would make sense for specific situations. However, I can envision no single user interface that would conveniently run the gambit of capabilities that are in Lilypond (therefore there would need to be several interfaces) . The bickering of what is 'the right' interface for a situation - being heavily culturally influenced - could easily set back Lilypond development several years if the current Lilypond developers were to be involved. My personal conclusion: Let the graphic artists and user interface specialists do what they do best; let the Lilypond developers do what they do best; let the joining come at the API level - which is defined. Please do not take this as a negative to your comment - in fact it is the opposite. I just happen to believe that the Lilypond (server) side is not the right place. Perhaps at the Rosegarden (GUI) side, though. -- Proud user of Lilypond Music Typesetting Tools http://www.lilypond.org ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: User Experience Engineering
On 5-Jan-2006, at 12:54 PM, Linda Seltzer wrote: A smooth user interface employing the standard already-debugged platforms, such as Notepad and Word on Windows, with everything bug free, is more important than more and more detailed features, which can be added later. A smooth user interface on an already-debugged platform is something that Windows itself cannot honestly claim. I've used Windows lately. I stopped. What you are calling "detailed features" are the main reason for choosing Lilypond. To musicians they are not "detailed features" at all, but the basics. Lilypond still has some distance to go to be adequate for all ordinary music. I have used very few programs that are, and none of those were free, open-source, etc. If you want a free (as in no money) music notation program for Windows, with fewer features but an easier interface for beginners, I can recommend some. Lilypond is filling its own position very well, exactly (in my opinion) because it is not trying to be those programs. Sincerely David ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
User Experience Engineering
Dear Friends, Having previously worked at AT&T Labs, where I was a member of the User Experience Forum, I would like to make a few comments as a relative outsider seeing the Lilypond project for the first time. This is a great endeavor and the software output is beautiful. I would greatly encourage the project to focus on the user interface and the user experience if this is to catch on in a large way. Having to install separate editors (and who knows what bugs that will bring and what other mailing lists one will have to subscribe to...) or get into the system with DOS commands, and to understand what is wrong if the flags are wrong, etc. does not constitute user interface engineering. A smooth user interface employing the standard already-debugged platforms, such as Notepad and Word on Windows, with everything bug free, is more important than more and more detailed features, which can be added later. Every 10 minues spent system administrating and installing things is 10 minutes that real work doesn't get accomplished. User experience engineering is just as important as other areas of software development. Sincerely, Linda Seltzer ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: User Experience Engineering
Linda Seltzer wrote: Dear Friends, Having previously worked at AT&T Labs, where I was a member of the User Experience Forum, I would like to make a few comments as a relative outsider seeing the Lilypond project for the first time. This is a great endeavor and the software output is beautiful. I would greatly encourage the project to focus on the user interface and the user experience if this is to catch on in a large way. Having to install separate editors (and who knows what bugs that will bring and what other mailing lists one will have to subscribe to...) or get into the system with DOS commands, and to understand what is wrong if the flags are wrong, etc. does not constitute user interface engineering. A smooth user interface employing the standard already-debugged platforms, such as Notepad and Word on Windows, with everything bug free, is more important than more and more detailed features, which can be added later. "everything bug free" is hardly a qualification that applies to Windows. We also cater for MacOS, Linux and we soon will for FreeBSD. Windows, far more than any other platform that we cater for, is plagued by gratitious bugs, inconsistencies and untraceable errors. Every 10 minues spent system administrating and installing things is 10 minutes that real work doesn't get accomplished. > User experience engineering is just as important as other areas of > software development. Keep in mind that every 10 minutes we save you on doing system administration, typically takes us 8 hours of debugging, fiddling with cross-compilers and testing. Add to that that Windows by far is our least favorite platform: I'll go on record saying that the entire development team actually loathes and despises Windows. If you're concerned about user-experience, I recommend you to choose between any of the following options - switch over to MacOS - sponsor the development team for Windows usability work - volunteer time to help engineer the Windows release Regards, -- Han-Wen Nienhuys - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.xs4all.nl/~hanwen ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: User Experience Engineering
Hello. > > I would greatly encourage the project to focus on the user interface and > the user experience if this is to catch on in a large way. > > Having to install separate editors (and who knows what bugs that will > bring and what other mailing lists one will have to subscribe to...) or > get into the system with DOS commands, and to understand what is wrong if > the flags are wrong, etc. does not constitute user interface engineering. > > A smooth user interface employing the standard already-debugged platforms, > such as Notepad and Word on Windows, with everything bug free, is more > important than more and more detailed features, which can be added later. > > Every 10 minues spent system administrating and installing things is 10 > minutes that real work doesn't get accomplished. > > User experience engineering is just as important as other areas of > software development. > Well, that would usually be enough to start a flame war ;-) [Especially, that part about "Windows" and "bug free"...] Please note that LilyPond is not about (graphical) user interface, but about music engraving. The LilyPond interface with the user is the text file describing the music to be typeset. Other projects (e.g. editors and GUI) propose tools which you can choose from in order to fulfill particular wishes (not needs!). Best, Gilles ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
