[luau] Givebacks & A Little History
The facts of the matter are that this is not a "giveback" in the true sense of the word; because on many occasions Warren, after insulting me in an unfounded and non factual manner, would then "offer" to give me the money for the drive back. When I finally said yes, I would take it, Scott Belford jumped in and tried to bail Warren out. This is because Scott is a decent very personable fellow. Warren has failed to follow through on many issues, and his failure to deliver as he publicly promised to me on this list is more or less par for the course. This really has nothing to do with HOSEF and all to do about Warren, and what he himself failed to do.
Re: [luau] Friendly Reminder - Quote Trimming
I already sent it to both you and Warren in a previous private email; however, it is Warren who constantly insulted me in an unfounded manner, not you or any other member of HOSEF. I would have been glad to contributed to HOSEF, with my time and labor, but Warren ended up making it very uncomfortable for me to participate in this group, and specifically on and through this list. I know you tried to address the problem, but your attempts at civility fell upon deaf ears when it came to Warren. It is Warren who delivered the incessant unfounded insults and it is he who offered to refund my contribution. R. Scott Belford wrote: On Saturday 22 February 2003 07:22 am, Joe Linux wrote: Just a friendly reminder. You never sent me the money for the disk drive as your stated publicly on this list. Please send it promptly or I will have to take further action. Now that LUAU and MPLUG are sponsored by HOSEF, I will arrange to send you your check from our funds. The great thing about giving to LUAU through HOSEF is that there is no taking it back. Once given, it is gone. This will be the last donation take-back. If you send me your address, off list, Joe, I will arrange to send you a check for the drive. Then the drive you and I gave together will be from me alone and I will have all the pow ... wait, what was I thinking? It must have been the ring. scott ___ LUAU mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://videl.ics.hawaii.edu/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [luau] Friendly Reminder - Quote Trimming
Just a friendly reminder. You never sent me the money for the disk drive as your stated publicly on this list. Please send it promptly or I will have to take further action. Warren Togami wrote: Hi. This is a friendly reminder about "Quote Trimming", a usual bit of etiquette that makes reading mailing lists easier and more enjoyable for everybody. When you reply to posts, please erase the quoted portion of the mail you are replying to a minimum necessary for someone to understand what exactly you are replying. http://videl.ics.hawaii.edu/pipermail/luau/2003-February/012447.html Here is one good example of quote trimming. Please do your part to make this community better for everyone. Thanks, Warren Togami [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ LUAU mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://videl.ics.hawaii.edu/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [luau] cd burning GUI
xcdroast R. Scott Belford wrote: I have recently helped an ambitious school in Kailua build 9 computers and install Linux on them. Their ultimate objective is to use them to process digital photos with Gimp and save them to CD's. I am failing miserably at showing them a happy, fun GUI for burning CD's that makes them comfortable. Have any of you used an app that you have had success with and can reccomend? scott ___ LUAU mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://videl.ics.hawaii.edu/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [luau] [Fwd: Athlon Comptuer] / Hard Drive
We are not trying to hurt you, and I actually respect you and your efforts very much, unfortunately the fact of the matter is Warren's conduct has become untenable and apparently he has very much soured both of us. As you point out, we are much older, I'm quite sure I was using a computer before Warren was even born. I admit that doesn't mean much, but we certainly deserve more respect and more appropriate behavior from him. Actually I have never had a problem with anyone in the group besides Warren, but as I said before I find his conduct totally unacceptable, and I regret donating in any way to his efforts. I have also pointed out before that I'm a contributing and respected member of the CLUE (Colorado Linux Users and Enthusiasts) group in Denver Colorado, and have never experienced or seen anything similar. R. Scott Belford wrote: On Friday 27 December 2002 07:57 am, Joe Linux wrote: I got this email from Wayne Liauh, he now wants to give the computer that he gave to you and your group to me. While you are at it, please return the disk drive that I donated to Mid-Pac High school to be used for open source. I will make arrangements to donate it to a more deserving organization which does not have a leader who constantly insults persons who contribute financially to the cause of Linux and open source. We will inform Mid-Pac of the reasons why we are asking for its return. Original Message Subject: Athlon Comptuer Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 15:42:38 -1000 From: "W. Wayne Liauh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Joe Linux <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Just realized that I don't have Warren Togami's e-mail address. Would you please ask him to hand back to you the Athlon computer that I personally delivered to him but apparently was never put in good use. If you have any problem, please let me know. Wayne Unreal and completely childish. Joe, you and I split the cost of a Western Digital 120 gb hard drive for LUAU. This drive can not be returned to you. Videl has been up for nearly 200 days. It cannot come down to return this drive to you. I will personally buy you a replacement drive for the $100 that you donated. I do not know what Warren has done with the machine that Wayne gave him. If there is any problem returning it, I will personally purchase a complete and BETTER replacement for Wayne. You and Wayne are much older than most of us. Warren had no business taking some jab at you. He knows better. He is still a very young man, though. If what he said was wrong, why respond in kind? You should know better; you are an adult. Wayne is an adult, a professional lawyer. Now he wants you to get a computer from Warren and LUAU that he gave Warren and the group. What, are we in 5th grade or something? UNREAL. You will have a replacement drive. Wayne will have his replacement computer. I will buy both of these if needed. Please do the community a favor: take your toys that you want back and grow up. We are trying to do some good here. There is no time to deal with your hurt feelings. If the best you can do is ask for material goods back, take them and be on your merry way. I have plenty of money to replace your "gifts." You will not hurt us with this action. scott ___ LUAU mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://videl.ics.hawaii.edu/mailman/listinfo/luau
[luau] [Fwd: Athlon Comptuer] / Hard Drive
I got this email from Wayne Liauh, he now wants to give the computer that
he gave to you and your group to me. While you are at it, please return
the disk drive that I donated to Mid-Pac High school to be used for open
source. I will make arrangements to donate it to a more deserving organization
which does not have a leader who constantly insults persons who contribute
financially to the cause of Linux and open source. We will inform Mid-Pac
of the reasons why we are asking for its return.
Original Message
Subject:
Athlon Comptuer
Date:
Thu, 26 Dec 2002 15:42:38 -1000
From:
"W. Wayne Liauh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To:
Joe Linux <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
References:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Just realized that I don't have Warren Togami's e-mail address. Would
you please ask him to hand back to you the Athlon computer that I
personally delivered to him but apparently was never put in good use.
If you have any problem, please let me know.
Wayne
Re: [luau] dhcp-146-41
You are a total Ass and a disgrace to the Linux Community. Warren Togami wrote: Nobody cares. You clearly have not been reading a word we said, like usual. Joe Linux wrote: Today I'm still [EMAIL PROTECTED] jl]$ W. Wayne Liauh wrote: Red Hat: "Your computer is being controlled by a server . . ." Joe Linux previously wrote: Respectfully yours, [EMAIL PROTECTED] root]# ___ LUAU mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://videl.ics.hawaii.edu/mailman/listinfo/luau
[luau] The key to M$ "success"
The key to M$ "success": http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=62o9a4%24i5c%241%40sparky.wolfe.net
Re: [luau] dhcp-146-41
Today I'm still [EMAIL PROTECTED] jl]$ W. Wayne Liauh wrote: Red Hat: "Your computer is being controlled by a server . . ." Joe Linux previously wrote: Respectfully yours, [EMAIL PROTECTED] root]#
Re: [luau] Linux For Newbies
Good and Slow! Cliff Brown wrote: just a suggestion... try Lycoris. It has most of the basic needs, detects everything very well, and is pretty good. Cliff
Re: [luau] dhcp-146-41
I have Earthlink Cable which still comes on Oceanic lines and the host name changes all the time. It just so happens that Mandrake doesn't care, but Redhat does. I know the members of Denver Linux Club (CLUE) were discussing the issue at some length during an install fest. Everyone seems to know it is a problem except the people who created RedHat. Respectfully yours, [EMAIL PROTECTED] root]# Charles Lockhart wrote: Darned tootin' (totally unsure what that means). I say vote with your wallet and cancel their service. Go Team! -Charles, who wishes everybody would quit using RR and leave all the bandwidth to him.
Re: [luau] Xandros (Mandrake 9 Sound ?)
Well I would like to have some of the features claimed by Xandros - mainly the ability to run "Win4Lin" out of the box, but unfortunately it doesn't come in the same box. You have to purchase each product separately even though they are claimed to be compatible. I know that "win4lin" didn't run on my particular machine, and Netraverse gave me my money back. As for Xandros, the only version I ever saw had no provision for running anything but their particular windowing manager. It seems If they are going together on this, they should both offer one combined boxed set with both products included and guaranteed to work. As it is now, you would have to pay shipping on two different packages. Then they could both pass the buck if it really doesn't work right. Also, you would then have to ship two different packages back. I have a mostly working distribution with Mandrake 9.0 aside from the fact that I have no sound. Which brings up the question does anyone know how to get sound to work in Mandrake 9.0? My sound card always worked previously, but now with 9.0 it isn't found or detected anymore. W. Wayne Liauh wrote: I think Linux has developed to such a stage that a lot of users will claim that the one distro that they use is the best since sliced bread. On Xandros, if you need those features that I mentioned, then it is the best distro (and the time you have to spend to, say, get Samba to work the way as Xandros does, will definitely cost much more than the $79 newly discounted price). Otherwise, I would much prefer Libranet 2.7 and Mandrake 9.0. OTOH, for anyone who is interested in getting involved in the business aspect of Linux, I don't think s/he can ignore Red Hat. There are, of course, a lot of problems with Red Hat. But that's how a Linux developer/consultant can expect to pay his/her bills. Back on Xandros. I know many of its developers and officers. However, I don't think you can put your head in the sand by doing a close-ended beta with only a handful of beta testers, and hope that your problems will go away.
Re: [luau] Xandros (Redhat)
So are you saying Xandros is a good thing? Are you recommending that we purchase a copy? Even though RedHat has problems, you prefer it over other distributions. Do you think Xandros is superior to Libranet, or Mandrake? Also I thought Xandros cost $99.00. W. Wayne Liauh wrote: Xandros automatically discovers Windows Network domains and workgroups, and then manages authentication credentials required to access network resources. It also provides support for Windows domain users that are logging in when your machine joins the domain, and allows its users to access files from a long list of sources, including HTTP, SFTP/FTP, telnet/SSH, NFS/SMB/NetBIOS, LDAP, WebDAV, audio CDs, digital cameras, and PDA. I am sure quite a few experienced Linux users will be able to tweak Knoqueror to do this, but it will cost you a lot more than $79.
Re: [luau] dhcp-146-41
One of the reasons I never continued to use RedHat is it always says it can't find the "hostname" when I try to use Gnome. I have never had that problem with any other Linux distribution. W. Wayne Liauh wrote: Thanks Warren. What's bothering me is that I have installed dozens of Red Hat 8 with DHCP, and the hostname was always localhost.
Re: [luau] techsomething radio show
The Harris administration also brought us "traffic claming" which essentially is the practice of making city streets functionally unusable by erecting multitudes of barricades and hazardous obstructions that strip the tires off of unsuspecting motorists' vehicles. Ho'ala Greevy wrote: it is my understanding that the City & County of Honolulu has moved their infrastructure entirely over to Win2k server, as apparently no one inhouse knew how to effectively manage the Unix hosts they previously had. As far as I know, Linux remains in the shadows with the City & County.
Re: [luau] December 2002 Netcraft Web Server Survey
Looks like M$ is becoming the alternative O$. http://www.netcraft.com/survey/ Top Developers Developer November 2002 Percent December 2002 Percent Change Apache 21699320 60.80 22045350 62.02 1.22 Microsoft 10239423 28.69 9803639 27.58 -1.11 Zeus 7759162.177524362.12 -0.05 SunONE 4880941.374812321.35 -0.02 Active Sites Developer November 2002 Percent December 2002 Percent Change Apache 10729462 64.69 11065427 66.54 1.85 Microsoft 4244842 25.59 4113590 24.74 -0.85 Zeus 2717531.642583671.55 -0.09 SunONE 2309021.392290811.38 -0.01
Re: [luau] Xandros (Redhat)
Maybe someone in the Club will buy Xandros, and we can see it in action. However, it would have to run ICE for me to be happy, but what is so amazing about the Xandros file manager? I use "konqueror" in conjunction with ICE and find it just fine. "mc" is also a very good file manager in many respects as it runs in terminal mode, and does a lot. Alvin Murphy wrote: I found it impossible to configure printers (local or smb) on red hat. Mandrake is better at that. On the other hand, RedHat was a little better at copying files from a win machine over my home lan. But if Xandros is anything like Corel at these tasks, it is the clear winner. It does come with some limitations, but I think if you wanted other things, they could be loaded. I read that it was even possible to make it into a full Debian but still keep the amazing file manager. Anyway, we will see.
Re: [luau] Xandros (Redhat)
It might be on your hardware, but not on mine. Redhat 8 is actually very sluggish on my particular box whereas Mandrake is very quick. I'm wondering if the new Redhat Workstation will actually fulfill its promise. LinuxDan wrote: Redhat Actually is the best.
Re: [luau] Mozilla w/ xft
It is better on my screen, but it's not remarkably better. On the whole though it is more attractive. Wayne is always into the latest and greatest so it is better, but may not make that much difference to the average person who just cares about being able to read it. Jimen Ching wrote: On my screen, it's only slightly bolder. Hardly worth mentioning. --jc
Re: [luau] Xandros
From what I know, Xandors doesn't run ICEwm as Wayne told me it doesn't even have Gnome. So my belief is that it may be good, but in a very limited way. I prefer a system that has lots of flexibility and one that's very easy to use. I think Mandrake is about the best out there right now, but I used to love my Libranet too. I haven't really tried that latest Libranet. I' m not going to spend $100.00 to try Xandros and then find out that it has no way of booting into ICE which is actually the quickest, slickest, most easily configurable windowing system. Libranet uses ICE as it's standard "Libranet Desktop Environment." Mandrake includes ICE as an option. Alvin Murphy wrote: I notice that Xandros is out. Has anybody tried it. I remember Corel was the slickest OS; I might have stayed with it if I could have gotten sound. Is Xandros proprietary? Would that make one a traitor to open source?
Re: [luau] HOSEF status
Is that going to be at the Stadium Mall? R. Scott Belford wrote: Please join us tomorrow, Saturday the 21st, from 1-4, to work on some of the donated equipment.
Re: [luau] techsomething radio show
I haven't head the show, but often these so called computer experts are only self styled Microserfs. Alvin Murphy wrote: I feel I was met with something like quiet derision. . . . . . I am very tempted to log on to their website and rant at little. Any ideas?
Re: [luau] Problems with Red Hat 7.1 install
Try one of the newer versions of Mandrake like 8.2 or 9.0. Stan Baptista wrote: Aloha folks, I'm having problems installing Red Hat and I hope someone might be able to suggest possible solutions.
Re: [luau] Why Red Hat?
Sorry I posted an answer a bit earlier this morning before I got to your response to your own question. W. Wayne Liauh wrote: You're exactly on the mark! This is something that, unless you have a need you won't appreciate it. But once you do, you're completely sold. Such a multi-lingual, multi-locale feature offered by Red Hat 8.0 (I first saw it in Red Hat 7.3, but it was not nearly as eloquent) truely sets it apart from any other operating system (not just other Linux distros, but any OS, inclusing Microsoft Windows). Of course, the fact that both Mozilla and, particularly, KOffice (not OpenOffice) have, at the same time, evolved into true multi-lingual, multi-locale application programs, also greatly helps. Combining KOffice with Red Hat 8.0, and we have an absolute winner. Finally, we have something in consumer desktop Linux that is clearly demonstrably superior to anything Microsoft Windows can offer! Duane wrote: Would it be the ability to set language environments for each user. I set my wife up with an account in Korean, and she's actually willing to start learning about email and web browsing. Probably off the mark, but it's one of the cooler things I've seen. Duane ___ LUAU mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://videl.ics.hawaii.edu/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [luau] Why Red Hat?
The reason is that Red Hat has the capability to switch languages at log in time. It is the best distribution for people who need Chinese and Japanese characters or moreover a complete operating system in a particular language. W. Wayne Liauh wrote: No one has any clue? I am disappointed. W. Wayne Liauh wrote: This is a quiz- There is a set of very unique features in Red Hat 8.0 that make it the natural distro of choice for those of us who still believe that Hawaii "should" still be America's gateway to the Asia market. Has anyone noticed this uniqueness of Red Hat? Yes, Red Hat sucks; it is not as fun to use as Mandrake 9.0 and not as stable as Libranet 2.7. But that just means there are still opportunities left for us non-mainlanders to explore and exploit. ___ LUAU mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://videl.ics.hawaii.edu/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [luau] Debian install
In my opinion, your best bet would be to purchase a copy of Libranet 2.7 which is based on Debian Woody, but it is considered to be more user friendly because of their install and other user friendly features they have added to the standard Woody. If you buy it you get great support from them too. Wayne Bow wrote: ALoha all, I've been trying to install Debian "Woody" for the last coupla days and am running into a problem Anyone have info that might help me get over this (or at least understand?) Mahalo! Wayne Bow
Re: [luau] trouble with cdrw
If it's possible to return them I would, as they will probably always be problematic especially for people less skilled than you. R. Scott Belford wrote: They are for a church/school, so I went with bargain. A few dollars more would have bought a Lite-on and perhaps much less trouble. They need to be able to boot from these if they ever want to install another distro. As it stands, I just can't boot from them. I had thought about making boot floppies, but, I don't want these people to get overwhelmed. I haven't tried to boot from one with a Bios setting of None. I think I will. Otherwise, these are likely heading towards an RMA. thanks scott
Re: [luau] Screen Font "Improvement" in WordPerfect 8 for Linux
I know I was preparing testimony for a public hearing using Abiword. I had just made numerous revisions and was doing the final spell check and then Abiword just blipped off my screen and all my revisions were lost. I'm not using Open Office on my system (Mandrake 8.2) because for some reason the spell checker doesn't work properly. It claims to spell check, but actually leaves much of the document unchecked. The lack of a decent word processor in Linux is most frustrating, and in my opinion the single most important reason that Linux in its present state will not find wide spread acceptance. In other words, we need a good word processor with good reliable spell checking, and we need it soon. Without it, we are still forced to maintain a Windows based system just to do writing. W. Wayne Liauh wrote: One of my biggest complaints about WP8/L is that its screen fonts are very unprofessional and annoying; this has been the single most critical factor keeping me from using it. To me, WP8/L is still the most powerful word processor in the world.
Re: [luau] Ghost for Linux and Pattition Image
Sounds like a great idea to me. W. Wayne Liauh wrote: What I have in mind is that it should not be too difficult to develop an optimized and "minimalized" Red Hat 8.0 system, then clone the image into a CD-R and make the disk bootable. Thereafter, when booted from the CD-ROM, it will execute scripts which will copy the disk image onto the free space.
Re: [luau] solicit
Perhaps you would be willing to earn a few extra bucks, and actually help Neal set it up. Ronald Willis wrote I have worked in several different business environments where the "proprietary software" was the only limitation to a productive network of computers. . . . . Some examples of how few *Bogomips can preserve your sanity! Centralized user authentication / security Centralized data backup... Web caching with popup window killer... Centralized spam, firewalling, and virus filtering...(a must have.) Total control of email services with web interfacing for remote access. (Yes you can still use your current email client programs...if you must) I have stored proprietary data on a Linux server/s, that just stand and serve, as the WinBoxes fall victim to failure by design...oops, did I say that? For them (maybe not yours) it saved the loss of data by 90 percent.
Re: [luau] solicit
My opinion is that native software is always best. I had a Macintosh that actually had a complete PC card included and booted the Mac OS and Windows simultaneously. However it wasn't really satisfactory as the Windows system was still under control of the Macintosh operating system. As such it was often hard to know if a particular problem say with sound had to do with a problem within Windows, or actually the manner in which the Macintosh was addressing the Windows operating system. Warren Togami wrote: You gain a small amount of reliability and robustness with VMWare snapshots, but otherwise I see very little value in running VMWare or Win4Lin over plain Windows. IMHO the cost is rather high and you lose a significant amount of performance. I currently recommend using Linux where it does the job well, unfortunately this area with Windows proprietary applications it doesn't yet.
Re: [luau] Good Guy/Bad Buy
It's not trolling, because I happen to like Jimen and it certainly shouldn't be considered "trolling" to express admiration for another member of the group, particularly in the context of what has been going on, and what was said previously. Even the proposed policy language contained a passage on "black listing" as it was proposed. Honestly, I have been treated very abrasively on more than one occasion by a certain single individual, and I don't appreciate it in the least. In all honestly your post is slightly inflaming as you subtly accuse me of trolling which is indeed false. So I would ask you, does your post promote harmony? Does it show respect? Is it related to group policy in terms of establishing positive goals and outcomes? These are sincere thoughts and questions, it is not posted in the spirit of "trolling." Since certain members were starting up their own "bad guy" list, I thought it might be appropriate to start my own "good guy" list. At least mine is positive in spirit, while the other is negative in attitude. Autumn wrote: From: Joe Linux <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Jimen is on my "good guy" list. Common sense and the adage "Least said, soonest mended." tell me I should keep quiet on this one, however, I think I have a worthy question: How is this one line post/comment *not* that of a troll?If you are not civil, you only prove your detractor's point.A___LUAU mailing list[EMAIL PROTECTED]http://videl.ics.hawaii.edu/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [luau] Proposed list guidelines
R. Scott Belford wrote: I tried to address this with the following: "Responding to other members on the list to address personal issues is generally discouraged. This is a gathering. If you have an issue with a person at a gathering, you don't disrespect the peace of the others by publicizing your personal grievances. This communication is best left off the list." scott Again I feel that the term "generally discouraged" should be "strongly discourage". I would rewrite the above passage as follows: "Responding in a derogatory or insulting manner to other members on the list is assiduously forbidden. Our mission is to promote fellowship within the open source community; and in turn, share our fellowship with the larger community of all computer users. If you have a dislike, or hatred toward a particular individual, you don't disrupt the harmony of the community by publicly insulting that individual and displaying your personal grievances, hatreds, and prejudice. " The reason I suggest this language as it addresses exactly what certain members have been doing on this list. Also, it might be good to add a passage about the importance of maintaining a sense of humor as laughter is known to be cathartic.
Re: [luau] Proposed list guidelines
I like your guidelines very much, and suggest only the following change: Change "You will likely be ignored or placed into a black list" to "You most likely will be ignored by many of the members." I don't think the mentioning of being "blacklisted" is very appropriate as it is sort of Klu Klux Klan like in thought an spirit. It seems to me that we all should have the maturity to ignore or at the the least simply delete the posts that don't interest us, or bother us in some way. Also you probably should include some statement to the effect that "Direct insults to or towards specific members of the group which do nothing to promote group harmony are considered inappropriate and therefore are highly discouraged." R. Scott Belford wrote: This is my proposed list guideline/welcome. I have inserted it into my message, and I am including a plain text attachment. Please do with it what you will. You don't have to like it. Just help make it better if you don't.
Re: [luau] List Policy
Quitters are losers. I'm not quitting. Warren Togami wrote: I think SVLUG policy was mentioned by Gary Sublett, who later quit the list in protest because he was completely offended by commercial posts.
Re: [luau] List Policy
I actually haven't stated that the LUAU operation is lousy. What I have said is that the CLUE group doesn't suffer from these petty disagreements over how and what to post. Basically there is free and open discussion, a monthly meeting which almost always has a different person doing the presenting. I gave a presentation there myself on my modifications to the ICE Windowing manager to make it extremely user friendly. Everyone's' presentation usually includes some sort of side show presentation, and supporting printed documentation which is handed out to the group. The sessions are divided into two parts. A KISS session for people with less experience with Linux, and then a more heavy duty main presentation of more advanced topics. The main presentation is usually by professional IT managers or professional programmers. They have had presentations by people working at Silicon Graphics, Sun Microsystems, the CEO of Colorado Tape Backup drives, Techangle ISP, Standard & Poors IT manager and so forth. My presentation was for the KISS session. Each meeting has extensive door prizes. When your number is called, you get to choose from a table full of books and boxed distributions and other novelty items related to Linux or open source. They had an auction and I won the high bid on a bundle of Adobe PhotoShop 5.0, 5.5 and Adobe Pagemaker 6.5 all in the original boxes for $13.00. The president is a very likable amiable guy who is easy to talk too. Honestly, I have never been insulted by the president, or anyone else there. They certainly don't devote time to "list policy" or "netiquette". Everyone just does their thing in a very professional manner, and they share their knowledge with one another. There isn't just one star. Everyone is made to feel like a contributing member. I think the MidPac group is a good group and the CompUSA presentation was a very good thing. I know that LinuxDan worked very hard on it. Scott Belford has great ideas and experience. Some of the MidPac group members are every bit if not more knowledgeable then the people in Denver. I find it a shame that immediately after the CompUSA demo day, all this strife had to break out. I actually haven't been critical of the group as a whole, but have certainly suffered abusive, degrading treatment from the leader, and I don't think that's a good thing, particularly when I see the same thing happening to others who are just new to the list or who are seeking help and are willing to pay for it. I may be in the middle of the discussion, but I certainly didn't start the problem. My initial biggest offense apparently was forgetting on occasion to trim a post. It went downhill from there. Ironically my wife and I have been financial contributors to the group, and find it very unethical and unprofessional to be continually insulted by the leader. Something's not right.Leadership is more than just technical knowledge. A leader has to be a people person , and good politician. Leadership isn't insulting people for their opinion when they have solicited opinions in the first place. I find it extremely offensive to be labeled a "troll" whatever that is in techno jargon. I like the members of the Luau group, and see it as an organization which has great potential to promote "open source" in Hawaii. But for this to happen, the leadership will have to stop directly insulting others, particularly those who have directly contributed financially to the cause. I'm not asking for special favors, but I certainly didn't expect abusive treatment when I made my donation. Elayne Man wrote: Okay, let's stop (indirectly) pointing fingers here... it may have been better to personally contact Ed about his e-mails, but nobody's perfect. If you have a problem with someone, try to take it out on them personally; the whole list doesn't need to know. (Maybe something of this extent can be added to the policy that Scott is writing?) George, you often talk about how lousy the LUAU operation is, and stated a couple of times about your "CLUE" group in Denver. So why don't you become a part of the solution by telling us how CLUE runs their group? Let's learn by example & experience. I remember Warren mentioning that the Silicon Valley Linux Users Group had an interesting list policy worth looking at: http://www.svlug.org/policies/list-policy.shtml "Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement." - quite true elayne
Re: [luau] List Policy
Message Deleted as the poster often resorts to name calling as opposed to intelligent discussion. Now we have a new term and concept "Netrollism" which apparently is any discussion of group policy which is in disagreement with the self appointed list policy netiquette leader. Warren Togami wrote: On Sat, 2002-10-19 at 13:16, Jimen Ching wrote: On 18 Oct 2002, Warren Togami wrote: Yes, and now you're going on my blacklist. I can't stand you. Could you put me on your blacklist as well? And I'll do the same for youon mine. Thanks. Although I often don't agree with your viewpoints, but I at least canrespect your opinion. George has proven to be nothing but a troll, so Ichoose not to read anything he says from now on.___LUAU mailing list[EMAIL PROTECTED]http://videl.ics.hawaii.edu/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [luau] List Policy
Basically my feeling is that each person should post in a manner which is comfortable to them. If I don't want to read something I just delete it with my key. For example I delete all of my own posts. Often I delete stuff on the intricacies of server set up or bulk email handling, as it's not something I'm into. I guess I delete most of the threads related to the discussion of problems with RedHat as I don't use it. Usually if I respond or post, it is a response to what someone has actually posted. For example I responded to Warren when he stated that he is an expert at spam handling and has his machine finely tweaked to eliminate the problem. I was somewhat curious why someone is so worried about alleged spam when from all outward appearances the person has that one aspect of their life very much under automated control. Jimen Ching wrote: Whether responses should go into the same email depends on whether thecontent is for one thread or different threads. Personally, it isconfusing to discuss multiple threads in the same email. Some sentencesmay be ambiguous, and if there are multiple threads in the same email, howdoes one know which thread it was refering to? This is how flame warsstart. People misinterpret the wording, and all hell breaks loose.On the other hand, if I want to respond to multiple people on the samethread, I tend to put it all in the same email. It is easier for me tocompose the email and follow the thread.This is just how I do things.--jc
Re: [luau] List Policy
Jimen is on my "good guy" list. Jimen Ching wrote: On 18 Oct 2002, Warren Togami wrote: Yes, and now you're going on my blacklist. I can't stand you. Could you put me on your blacklist as well? And I'll do the same for youon mine. Thanks.--jc
Re: [luau] List Policy
The problem is I'm in a different time zone MST. So I just answer the posts as the come and as most everyone is sleeping in Hawaii when I'm responding it ends up puttng mine all in a row. In all honesty it would be difficult to combine my responses in to single post as I just read the Luau posts as they come and respond to them in the same manner. Eric Hattemer wrote: I do have to say that Warren has a point. 8 Posts in a row all about the same subject. It would be appreciated if you could generally combine your posts into fewer. This isn't a threaded forum. -Eric Hattemer
Re: [luau] News - Impressions of SuSE 8.1
That's the thing about SuSE. It works perfectly on some boxes and is just miserable on others. Dean Fujioka wrote: SuSE 8.0 works fine on my Duron 700 no optical mouse or Geforce2 though.
Re: [luau] List Policy
Great leadership and Linux community building. What a wonderful way to treat your benefactors. Fantastic believe in freedom of opinion. Naturally you are free to feel anyway you want and do anything you want. However you have to look at what happened to Edward Baker. Perhaps this is not an isolated incident. While I'm not an advocate of list policy, I sincerely believe that some issue that could be construed by the majority to be a personal feud should be taken to private email, particularly when it is the alleged leader of the group that is feuding. Warren Togami wrote: you're going on my blacklist. I can't stand you.
Re: [luau] List Policy
It seems to me, you should be the last person worried about being personally affected by SPAM. Warren Togami wrote: I personally trust that a combination of the three works very well after configuration. I have something like 99.99% effective spam filtering now, with no false positives for several weeks. (I read through my entire SPAM folder periodically, just to make sure.) Warren
Re: [luau] List Policy
Interestingly since I switched to Earthlink Cable, (through Oceanic) I have been getting no spam, but on my old RR account which for some reason is still active, the only thing I get is SPAM. Another benefit of Earthlink is that you get nation wide dial up included with the Hawaii cable modem price. So it has worked out well. Dustin Cross wrote But hey, this is just the opinion of someone who gets well over 100 SPAM e- mails per day, not to mention the 100 or so messages I get from lists I subscribe to. There is a down side to having the same e-mail address for seven years. Dusty
Re: [luau] List Policy
If you know this, how come you immediately pounce on someone for "spamming" when it's obvious in the first place that they are not Linux users? I do know I dropped Oceanic Road Runner in favor of Oceanic Earthlink for the very reason that the "SMTP" server was stalling out and we were having difficulty sending outbound mail on actually both Linux and Windows. Warren Togami wrote: On Thu, 2002-10-17 at 17:28, al plant wrote: At last a reasonable voice. I believe the person was only asking forhelp too. By the way there are some people on this list who send two or three mailpostings each time they make a comment. I don't think it is intentionalor spam. In fact it has been discussed a couple of times in the past.Maybe something in our sign up mail program is doing this. Many of the multiple postings are the fault of Outlook Express, where insome cases if you click "Send" but the SMTP server is stalling, itsometimes sends it multiple times. I don't recall seeing any othermailers do this.___LUAU mailing list[EMAIL PROTECTED]http://videl.ics.hawaii.edu/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [luau] List Policy
I agree fully with you, but I guess at this point I see this as problem where a single individual is enforcing policy where no policy exists. Now you can ask is the problem do to a lack of policy or an individual who makes up policy on the spot, with little thought as he goes along. Since I was at the brunt of this in the past, I guess I can admit that a certain amount of bad blood is coming out now as I see the same thing happening to others that happened in the past to me. An yes, I agree this is definitely not in the interest of actually building and open source community. I would like to point out that I'm also a member of the "CLUE" group in Denver, and there are is virtually no equivalent problem. Dustin Cross wrote: Aloha, Come on guys, this has been blown WAY out of proportion! This was someone asking for help. The second guy said he heard about linux from the CompUSA thing and wanted help. This list used to be about helping people and not chastising them for asking for help! It is okay to give someone free help, but insulting if they offer to pay a little money? This list used to be about talking about open source and helping each other learn new things about open source, no matter if they are newbies or geeks who have been using Unix since it only ran on a PDP-11. I think we need to calm down a little, this is supposed to be about building the open source community in Hawaii, isn't it? Dusty
Re: [luau] Re: Graphic art design
My opinion is still remains that if he can get personal help setting up his one system, for his own needs, it would be a "win win" situation for all involved. Taking courses is a long process, and courses are hit and miss in addressing his actual need. linuxdan wrote: Neal The best thing to do is purchase the Redhat 8.0 and with all the applications available you could get all the technical support off the list and help yourself learn in the process. I would even consider taking the Linux Plus class. Joe Bransfield and Co at CompUSA Training are the best of the best. The whole point of going this route is that you will find more cash in your wallet for training and even new equipment once you start learning how the apps work and how you can apply it to your home business. Dan
Re: [luau] List Policy
It may be construed to be insulting, but then again there is the old adage that "You get what you pay for." linuxdan wrote: I agree with what you depict as Spam. I believe in most situations like the "starving students" declaration, people are looking for a cheap way to get someone to do their dirty work and get free training in the process. I particularly dont like that people would abuse the list by resorting to such tactics just to save a few bucks. Its rather insulting.
Re: [luau] Policy Discussion
Just drop it, and give people some space. Warren Togami wrote: Would everyone agree for the list policy that asking for someone to do a job is okay? In the case of Edward's request, it was completely off-topic. Should requests be restricted to on-topic things that are remotely related to Linux/Unix/Programming/Networking/Security types of things that we normally discuss here? Where should we draw the line? This may be a more difficult gray area because what if he had asked "3D modeling in Linux"... Comments please. ___ LUAU mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://videl.ics.hawaii.edu/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [luau] Re: Graphic art design
I think this message is right on target. People want help, are willing to pay for it, ask for it, and then are hit with an arrogant message about "netiquette" by an essentially self appointed, self styled net patrolman. I can really relate to you (Neal & Gay) not wanting to be forced into several years of study trying to learn all the intricacies of a comparatively complex operating system. Plus this so called "spam" is actually an opportunity for someone to earn some money. Now I ask, how can one person decide for all the others as to who in this group would want to earn money and who wouldn't or how they might want to earn it. This mailing list should not be a place where a single solitary (self appointed) boss defines what you can or can not do. As I said before, I never considered the first message that was declared "spam" to even be spam. So I don't know. I myself have been declared to be deficient in netiquette because of some comparatively petty issues. So if "netnutiquette" allows us to express an opinion here, I would welcome all requests from people who are seeking help and especially those who are willing to pay for it. I myself was willing to pay for help in getting my Linux system going when I first started. At the time I experienced a great deal of frustration, and got blasted too, so I can relate. As for the help, all I can say is that I don't care for Red Hat, but depending on your purposes it could be the best choice for what you are trying to do. I see RedHat as being popular with people wanting to set up a sever or networked system, while some other distributions seem stronger in the desktop and user friendliness arena. In as much as you are a dentist; and I presume comparatively well heeled, you might consider the Macintosh OS-X. Having said that, I wouldn't use it myself because I don't care to be locked into expensive proprietary hardware and software, but it probably is much more intuitive and user friendly. So if you need to or are willing to pay for help, then perhaps the investment in a hardware and intuitive software might actually turn out to be more economical in the long run. Don't get me wrong, I do use Linux exclusively on my home PC, but my choice is based primarily on economic, political, and security reasons. I use Linux because it will run on standard clone PC's and there is a competitive environment amongst the various distributions, and in the long run, the effort required to learn it should be well worth it, if in fact Linux application software can do whatever task you need to accomplish. Neal & Gay Timon wrote: Perhaps my experience will give another perspective on your "spam" discussion. I went to Comp USA the Sunday your group was there. I was considering upgrading my windows operating system and spoke to two of your members. Our discussion impressed me, and I decided to purchase the Red Hat Linux software. I also attended one of your classes but found I didn't have enough knowledge to benefit (I'm sure most of you can relate to a class where you don't feel knowledgeable enough to even ask a question). It was suggested that I subscribe to this group where I could ask for help etc. I'm just an older dentist trying to benefit from what I still perceive to be benefits of this system. I want to get it working but am not interested in spending countless hours learning all the details about a new operating system right now. I was also considering asking about hiring someone to help me (you students must still be hungry and need money). That isn't my idea of spam, but it may not be something you want on this group. Perhaps you would rather just reply that this group discourages that sort of request and suggest an alternative. Neal by the way, where can I hire someone to help me? Message deliberately not trimed
Re: [luau] Graphic art design
Personally I think we need to live and let live and forget about establishing policy for every unforeseen event. Robert Green wrote: Perhaps we could have a volunteer who could gently steer newbies or mild violations in the proper direction without getting too harsh on them? Or a Luau List Ettiquette article that can be gently worded and sent to offending parties? In all fairness, I personally don't see any problem with the occasional commercial posting, providing it is related to the list, such as the infrequnt links to job openings of interest to non-MS IT professionals or announcments of open-source bases businesses and entrepenuers. I wouldn't want to see these postings everyday, but a couple of them in any given week doesn't seem unreasonable.
Re: [luau] News - Impressions of SuSE 8.1
I was just at installfest in Denver and one member of the group tried to install SuSE 8.1 on a Duron 700 machine running an Geforce 2 card and a M$ optical mouse and SuSE 8.1 locked up very early on. He said he hasn't been able to install SuSE on his machine since 7.1. Even the pros there couldn't get it to go and so in the end the guy just gave up. I got a disk there of Knoppix 3.1 which seemed really cool. Unfortunately I have misplaced the disk for the moment so I can't give a report as to how it behaves on my particular machine. by Dennis E. Powell A new SuSE is always interesting in the way that life-threatening sports are interesting. It might seem to be going along just fine, but in an instant disaster can strike. So it was with the usual wariness that I put Suse 8.1 on a machine here. Nor was it just any old machine -- it was the one my wife uses. (Hey, you think I'm crazy enough to put it untested on my machine?) I'm pleased to report that but for a couple of bumps, it went surprisingly well.
Re: [luau] Graphic art design
Perhaps excess netiquette leads to spamconfusion requiring a netfusion of netranquilization. Jimen Ching wrote: I also find your view of the world very confusing... --jc
Re: [luau] Graphic art design
I wondered that myself, because I know sometimes things come through as a double post. Also when you are new to some list, or a strange one like a "Linux" list then you might not acutely know if your message went through. My impression is the guy was just a friendly innocent guy who needed some real help. To blast him right away for "netiquette" issues seems a bit hyper to me. It probably would have been better to just let it go unless there was more evidence that it was an actual problem. My opinion is that it's poor netiquette to always be telling others what proper netiquette is. Different people have different thoughts opinions and styles and so forth. There is just isn't any point in immediately net picking unless something is actually a severe problem which is bothering the great majority of readers on the list. Like beauty, netiquette is in the eye of the Netition. In other words a Netlord should wait until he/she receives a significant number of complaints about an issue from the Netsurfs. Ronnie T Livingston wrote: Ive been getting multiple email from this list from the beginning of the summer so I couldn't tell if he posted once or three times =) -Ronnie
Re: [luau] Graphic art design
I wouldn't think a request for help would be considered "spam." linuxdan wrote: Warren I believe it was Grant who gave Edward the list for help but as Grant doesnt understand LUAUs Spam policy, Im afraid Edward was unaware he was Spamming. We should post a Spam notice prior to chastising any people who are sending such emails. Dan
Re: [luau] OpenSourceAdvocates
I don't use the M$ Windows operating system because it's both costly and crummy. I don't use OS-X because is costly and only runs on very expensive proprietary hardware that is deliberately obsolesced by the Apple Computer Company. While I do use Linux, I long for a Word processor that is equal to the ones that run on the other two operating systems. Warren Togami wrote: I myself BELIEVE in Open Source and Free Software. I use it whenever possible even though I know it would be easier to do a certain job using some proprietary software, even if I own that proprietary software. However, we cannot convince people on purely idealism. Technical merit and price are the only things that will convince people to stop using proprietary software. Warren ___ LUAU mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://videl.ics.hawaii.edu/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [luau] OpenSourceAdvocates
This is a sad fact of life. However, if Linux is to succeed in any large way, the Linux word processors are going to have to be much much better. Ronald Willis wrote: When I go into these offices (of about 25 - 50 computers) and interview the staff on their computing habits, and discover how many of them think that MSN is the one and only default search engine on the Internet I am reminded of the challenging task ahead of us all. Google.com is appreacited by some, but fear consumes the masses and wont consider change until they are forced to change to limit virus attacks. Thanks for the feedback everyone. Ron
Re: [luau] OpenSourceAdvocates
Legislation needs to pass or it is meaningless. I doubt this bill will ever pass; however it does bring attention and focus to open source software, as it forces debate, which in turn forces thought on the subject. Jimen Ching wrote: I believe we are talking about government purchased software. --jc
Re: [luau] non-profit incorporation
How about "Hawaii Foundation for Open Source Technology"? Brian Low wrote: Aloha Scott, I really dig the folowing name: Open Source Technology for Hawai`ian Schools Foundation. I was thinking, this sounded a little better: Open Source Technology for Hawaii Foundation. This would give the name a little more flexability. There are a lot more than just non-profit schools that could be utilizing our project. There are a lot of non-profit orginazations out there that not only work with schools but with other places as donations. This would also allow us to plug into these places also. What do you think? Thanks, Brian Brian Low Security X 1515 Nuuanu Ave. #555 Honolulu, HI 96817 Phone: (808) 371-3571 E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ LUAU mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://videl.ics.hawaii.edu/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [luau] News - Mandrake 9.0 vs. Mandrake 8.2 for new Linux users
I used Libranet 1.9.1 for almost a year and consider it the finest computer system I ever used, and that includes 7 years on the Macintosh. Unfortunately with the quick pace of Linux in general this release soon became obsolete. Unfortunately Libranet 2.0 was a real bust and was generally considered far inferior to Libranet 1.9.1. I do hope that 2.7 is good as I would love to return to the Debian system. Please post your opinion of it once you get it installed and have tried it for a period of time. W. Wayne Liauh wrote: At the present time, the only viable way to implement a business Linux desktop is through Win4Lin (version 4.0.1+). Unfortunately, there are no available kernel patches at the present time that will allow Win4Lin to work with either RedHat 8.0 or Mandrake 9.0. Interestingly, as a result of this, I am going to test Libranet 2.7. (My friend Leon Goldstein has just written an article on Linux Journal highly prasing Libranet 2.7.) As I am writing this, I have given them my credit card number, downloaded the two ISOs, and burned them onto CDs. Libranet--among all the possible Linux distros and after I have spent so much time on Red Hat and particularly Mandrake?
Re: [luau] Open Source for Business Demo Day
Sounds great, sorry I'm still in Denver, and won't be able to make it. Warren Togami wrote: Open Source for Business Demo Day Linux and Open Source Solutions for Businesses Sunday, October 6th, 2002
Re: [luau] Help Needed with Comp USA
I know a lot of stores claim that if they can't fix it, they will replace it when the sell the extended warranty. I would write a letter of complaint the State Office of Consumer Protection. Warren Togami wrote: WTF...
Re: [luau] News - Mandrake 9.0 vs. Mandrake 8.2 for new Linux users
I think the main issue still is a good word processor. I have been working on an important letter in Open Office, and I'm often frustrated by some of the things that are going on with it. Details: Screen refresh is messed up from time to time with menus stuck on top. Unable to cut from Galeon and paste into Open Office. (works with Abi Word) Spell checker failed to function at some point in time, but worked after a re-launch. Document formatting difficult to control. Basically Open Office is marginal and doesn't compare to WP on Windows. W. Wayne Liauh wrote: I have been thinking about putting together an "almost state of the art" PC and placing it at our State Bar office to bring the awareness to our bar membership of a possible Linux office solution, which, at least potentially, should offer the lure of better security and better cost-effectiveness. (Cost is a very important factor here. Our parent firm in Houston pays about $110K for new hires, here, the best starting salary I heard is $72.5K.) Before I do that, I would like to put that Linux office machine in a semi-publicly accessible place such as Midpac (Warren? Tom?) so that many would-be consultants can kick its tires before offering their services to at least the bar members. I will be out of town most of October. Suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
Re: [luau] Mandrake 9 & Geforce4 Ti4200
First go to www.nvidia.com . Select drivers, graphics, GeForce, then linux. Grab NVIDIA_GLX source rpm. Grab NVIDIA_kernel source rpm. Then get those to your linux machine (either copy the links and wget, or put them on a fat32 partition and just mount it in linux). Then install both of those packages using the rpm command (*not urpmi). rpm -ivh NVIDIA*.rpm This puts them in /usr/src/RPM/SOURCES . now get kernel source urpmi kernel-source cd /usr/src/RPM/SOURCES tar xvzf *GLX*.tar.gz tar xvzf *kernel*.tar.gz cd NVIDIA_kernel- gmake install cd NVIDIA_GLX- gmake install /etc/etc/X11/XF86Config-4 find the driver line where it probably says "nv" replace the nv with nvidia save reboot (I know you don't strictly have to boot, but its easiest and a good test) you should be set. Eric Hattemer wrote: I think I posted all the instructions to the list earlier this week), I had some problems, actually. KDE wouldn't work at all, but gnome worked just fine. I started up gdm manually and could only run gnome programs. I did that for a while, fixed my sound driver, turned the computer off for the day, came back the next day, and mysteriously, it worked beautifully and has worked ever since. Maybe its because I'm working on mostly new hardware, but I am amazed at how quick and responsive mdk9 with kde is. . . . GF cards should work with nvidia's drivers in mdk9, and if they don't, maybe I or someone else on the list can help you out with that. -Eric Hattemer
Re: [luau] Beware of Using Word 97
Yes, I see your point now, but keep in mind M$ is a great company. W. Wayne Liauh wrote: You missed the point George. This macro-virus problem inherent in Word97 (and we don't know whether a similar problem exists with Word2K/WordXP) has nothing to do with internet connection. Using a separate computer will not solve this problem. ___ LUAU mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://videl.ics.hawaii.edu/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [luau] Beware of Using Word 97
If you are really working on sensitive stuff, it better be on a separate computer that's not connected to the Internet in any way. W. Wayne Liauh wrote: when Alice gets this particular document back, it contains a copy of the most sensitive files on your computer - that big contract you're working on, say, or a spreadsheet of salaries, or all of your Outlook data. Alice gets the whole enchilada. And you never saw a thing: the pilfered data is hidden inside the document. http://www.wpuniverse.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6914 Of course, this problem only happens with Word 97, we can safely assume that Microsoft must have already solved them in subsequent versions.
Re: [luau] IMPORTANT - Upcoming List Policy
I believe the so called list policy should actually contain a mission statement in preference to a set of rules and regulations. R. Scott Belford wrote: The eventual Upcoming List Policy will not need to say much. No more than a few intellectual objectives you all have and the means by which a group member can help to achieve them. I would personally want a method or protocol to exist that would inform me if I misbehaved. Perhaps a future steering committee member would do that on the rare occassions required. Basically, all comments should be invited by any means possible.
Re: [luau] VIA EPIA Mini ITX Mainboard
Title: Price Watch® Search Engine - VIA EPIA Mini ITX It will be interesting to see how it turns out. W. Wayne Liauh wrote: VIA EPIA Mini ITX
Re: [luau] incorporation
Great information, and food for thought, particularly the name. When Wayne is allowed to participate in his actual field of expertise, he shows his true strength. It's great to have one of Hawaii's foremost international attorneys guiding the group. W. Wayne Liauh wrote Warren- As we discussed before my recent trip, you need at least three (five is probably the practical minimum) persons to serve as board of directors.
Re: [luau] IMPORTANT - Upcoming List Policy
All very well put (for self explanatory reasons, and I'm choosing not to trim this response.) R. Scott Belford wrote: On Thursday 05 September 2002 03:59 am, Warren Togami wrote: [SNIP] I am offended that you now try to make yourself look to be the victimand especially saying that the "one man show" (implying me) is to blame.For a while now I thought you had stopped with posts that that in myopinion were annoying. Then now you assume that I was talking about youwhen I said "not mentioning any names". No, in fact I wasn't talkingabout you. I was more concerned about the list as a whole. You startto raise accusations...Forget it, you aren't worth my time... It is now time to cool it. Period. We live in America where we are entitled to express ourselves. I feel like the list maintains a very high tone of discussion. The few digressions into "flames" are shortlived and rather innocent. Without an official policy, Warren, you do make yourself appear to be the cop when you are annoyed. This behaviour does not serve you well. For the record, this came up months ago. I offered to write a list guideline; you refused the offer because you wanted to do it alone.We need a list policy. Just a basic one. Trimming quotes 101 needs to be included. What is and is not a flame and how to avoid it. Perhaps we need a policy for educating someone when they make a mistake. Example:I use debian on my ibook. Debian rocks. It is the best linux distribution. It makes windows look likethis is a worthless post.I use debian on my ibook. Wh ile it was a struggle at first, I love the community support. Ap-get is such an intuitive interface. I wish that ...strong-willed, but at least there is a reason for why I feel this way.The joke posted the other day about Microsoft code was funny. It was a joke to me. I did not consider it a flame. I realize, though, that any time you talk bad about someone/something else, wise folks wonder what you are hiding about yourself. Nonetheless, jokes are okay. Hoala posted why bsd was better than linux once; it was very funny.The response to the joke post defending Microsoft was impassioned, but well-reasoned. It went into the apci specs or whatever they are. I learned a little. Newcomers to the list were exposed to some passionate thinking, but there are no trolls in our group.I love opinions. I think the list should encourage superlatives like such and such is the best. The list should require that re aons be included with superlatives, though. Doing this endears readers to your way of thinking. At first I felt bad about asking you politely about these issues becauseyou were gracious in donating one of the 60GB hard drives currently inVidel, but now I realize it is a complete waste of my time to respond toyou. I should send you a check for $100 just so I don't feel that I oweyou anything. Please e-mail me your mailing address so I can send youthe check. This statement is riddled with flames. It burns me to read it. I personally gave LUAU a $200 Western Digital drive that many of you pull data from when accessing videl. This does not entitle me to anything. On the one hand, I am bothered that Warren no longer mirrors debian like I asked (I was given a choice with the donation as to what I wanted mirrored) However, I donated the drive and it is not my place to micromanage someone else's decision. If I didn't want someone deciding for me, I could have kept my donation.The point, you give something of yourself when you join. You give up the right to control everyone because you are part of a group. You give up the right to say whatever you want, no matter how offensive, because you are part of a group. I wont censor you, but I'm thinking about adding you to my personal spamfilter. go for it, please. Sorry,WarrenTo everyone else: Yes I am being irrational. I cannot deal withGeorge. This is a complete waste of my time. Then please censor him in your own email account. It is not fair for us to be exposed to your personal grievances with Joe. He, as a member of our community, is free to be judged by the other members of the community absent the bias of any one person.scottlastly-the solution to this growing pain is not to quit the group or splinter our small island with even more mailing lists about linux. quitting because we don't like something is not how communities grow stronger.___LUAU mailing list[EMAIL PROTECTED]http://videl.ics.hawaii.edu/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [luau] IMPORTANT - Upcoming List Policy
I thought the issue here was to discourage flaming. I didn't mention any names in my post and generally don't flame individuals. In general terms, it's difficult to be all, and do all. Persons who attempt this often become overly stressed out, irritable, and more often than not, irrational. I'm actually not in Hawaii right now, but I note that the Luau group seems to have folded before because people couldn't get along, and I wasn't there, and and had nothing to do with it. This group is actually one of the splinter groups. I actually joined both subsequent groups. I do know the Denver group has been much more stable. It has mostly highly technical fully employed IT administrators as members. The presentations are highly organized and complete with well prepared slide shows, and accompanying documentation. Presentations have been given by Silicon Graphics employees, CEO's of mass storage device companies, professional software engineers and so on. I can never remember the same individual giving a presentation. Each month it seems to be something different with a new topic and a new face. The presentations are technical, but as often as not, contain a good bit of humor. As for the elected president, he is very easy going, quite likable, and an IT professional in the brokerage industry. I haven't seen or heard of anyone calling each other names, or saying they can't deal with one another. In general terms, any organization is much stronger when there is opportunity for the complete participation of the members. Obviously that includes the ability to freely express their own ideas. I can assure you I have never asked for any special favors or dispensation from this group although I did eat a big chunk of a community Subway sandwich one time. It's interesting that some people think Linux users must fit into a certain "mold." In fact I have always found it curious that the "open source" community has tended to be less than open when it came to the free expression of ideas. This forum isn't unique in that regard. For the record, the disk drive was donated to Mid Pacific Institute, not you. We actually have a letter from them indicating they received it. As to how it was exactly used by them I can't say. The reason I donated the drive was to help promote open source, not any one individual. Furthermore my son goes to Mid Pacific Institute as well, and I was very pleased that Mid Pacific had an open source initiative. Warren Togami wrote: I wont censor you, but I'm thinking about adding you to my personal spam filter. To everyone else: Yes I am being irrational. I cannot deal with George. This is a complete waste of my time. If things are a waste of a person's time, then they probably shouldn't deal with it, particularly if it's around 4:00 AM in their own time zone.
Re: [luau] IMPORTANT - Upcoming List Policy
Jimen Ching wrote: Perhaps specialized topics like linux for schools does not belong in a general purpose mailing list like Luau. I believe the idea of censorship came up in the past and was shot down. Of course, videl is your server and no one can force you to host a list you don't like. --jc Maybe the problem here is that it's too much of a one man show. I like the idea of moving the Linux for Schools to a separate list. Since I belong to the "CLUE" (linux list) too, some of these issues were debated there also, but the difference seem to be that there was no one person who really dominated the group. In the end, it' was business as usual. I like opinions, and have no objection to a person expressing their own feelings, beliefs, and thoughts. I enjoy controversy. What I detest is persons who impose their own personal feelings, and beliefs on others. They do it a certain way; and therefore, they believe everyone should do it the same way. Then they go on to impose their way on everyone else. I always tried to trim my posts going back to the original Luau list, and suggested that people do it at that time. At that time some posts were literally almost miles long because every response to an original question continued to be included at the bottom of an additional response. However, sometimes it helps to have the complete thought of the particular person and idea or question you are responding to. Sometimes on this list, even though trying to remember to trim my responses, I accidentally sent a message without trimming and then was jumped on, being accused of never trimming my posts which in fact wasn't true at all. This seem to happen more often than not when the person actually didn't like the ideas or opinions I had expressed. So instead of responding to the idea, they nit picked on issues like "trimming." Basically I believe in a live and let live policy, but to be honest and probably overly blunt, that are certain cultures in Hawaii who just can't accept that, to the point of not even knowing the extent they impose their particular view, life style, sense of humor, ( or lack thereof) on the lives of others. It's not like they are doing a thing a certain way and teaching by example. Rather they blatantly force others into their way, and are hyper critical of others if it isn't done their way. These are just my opinions, and of course anyone is free to do, think, and act any way they want. In other words, by expressing these opinions, I'm in no way saying you should do what I do, or believe the way I do. I'm only asking for the freedom to just be myself, and be the way I am, because that's how I am.
Re: [luau] $199 Walmart Computer, pre-loaded with Linux
I noticed that too, when I was considering a Wall Mart bicycle. At the time, I thought it was just larger items. I'm glad you pointed it out as a general policy. Vikram Khurana wrote: Walmart.com doesn't ship to Hawaii
Re: [luau] IMPORTANT - Upcoming List Policy (MS Bashing)
I don't have the money to try every new M$ release, but I don't care for what I've tried, and I continue to believe that they have caused great damage to competition and choice within the computer industry. W. Wayne Liauh wrote: Microsoft is indeed a very good company, and, from my own experience it does produce very good products. Abstractly bashing Microsoft only makes one look ignorant. ___ LUAU mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://videl.ics.hawaii.edu/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [luau] MASM within Bochs/FreeDOS Emulation
That looks rather cool, although I favor native applications for Linux. Inter operational ability between various operating systems has always been a big issue and in my opinion and area where M$ as seriously impeded progress within the industry.. Warren Togami wrote: http://www.mplug.org/archive/2002/bochs_win98_install.phpHere's one cool though unrelated screenshot of Bochs running the Win98Installer in Linux. Bochs isn't nearly as fast or stable as VMWare, butit is free and Open Source, and runs on other platforms like PowerPC
Re: [luau] IMPORTANT - Upcoming List Policy
I prefer Internet forums which are wide open and not micro managed. As for flaming M$, have at it. They deserve it. On the other hand I don't think personal attacks on individuals because of their honest opinions and feelings are in order. The delete key works fine on my computer. If the forum becomes to stiff, I would probably unsubscribe. Just for the record, and as an example, I like the extremetech.com forum. http://discuss.extremetech.com/n/main.asp?webtag=extremetech&nav=messages. Wide open, lots of knowledgeable people, freedom to express yourself in a natural, fun, and sometimes humorous manner. Togami wrote: Agree? Disagree? Comments please.
Re: [luau] M$ secret code.. (BOOTFLOPPY)
Are these devices easily recognized by most Linux distributions? And while I'm asking, what about USB II cards. Can the present Linux distributions take advantage of them? MonMotha wrote: Do yourself a favor and get a CF to IDE converter (about $20 or less as all they are are a CF slot with an IDE plug) and a 128MB CF card (or so). You should be able to fit all you need in that 128MB, and it will probably still end up being cheaper than a hard drive. Even if it's not cheaper, it's a whole lot more reliable! --MonMotha
Re: [luau] PowerPoint Alternative
I used Apple computers for many years and was very satisfied with them other than the fact that they are a single source proprietary supplier. Looking at Mac and comparing that system to M$'s poorly working alleged system, I think the entire world would have been better off without M$. Just for the record, I have been using Linux based systems exclusively for the past two years. Somebody wrote: ALL YOU LINUX GUYS SHOULD BE THANKFUL FOR MS! Think about it! MS lets ppl complete their jobs by allowing thousands of apps/hardware to be created and utilized. Linux is soo way behind (while linux gurus are slowly developing a better apps etc.. you got guys on MS that are mastering the app's skills they need to do their job) Yes Linux may be a better built OS but MS is a much better USED OS; to regular users not gurus like MonMotha perhaps. People who need to get things done use MS. Live in New York for awhile, technology is a tool to get businesses running.
Re: [luau] PowerPoint Alternative
I did my presentation using "gqview" and I worked the slides up in "gimp" It worked very nicely and gave me great control over the presentation. What's nice abut "gqview" is that it has a full screen mode so your slides look really nice, and you can click them ahead at your own pace, or you could even have it move ahead by itself if you actually wanted it that way. "W. Wayne Liauh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Re: [luau] Intel case tests e-mail as free speech
Their is a difference between "free speech" and incessant libelous speech. That's probably what's at issue here. Elizabeth Long wrote: Now, the California Supreme Court will determine whether the former employee's e-mail is a form of electronic trespassing, as Intel claims, or an expression of free speech. http://www.msnbc.com/news/794127.asp Intel has already won 3 rounds of court battle
Re: [luau] Linksys and Red Hat (Not)
While it's good to know that RH runs great on a specific machine, It is indeed sad to hear that Mandrake is having problems. Perhaps there will be a Wallmart/RedHat PC that will be pre configured. I don't think any computer system that isn't extremely both user friendly and very stable will be successful in the long run. W. Wayne Liauh wrote: Further to my comment. Limbo 2 runs great on the GHz Athlon machine. Indeed, "great" is an understatement; it runs absolutely beautifully. I have never seen anything like that. WordPerfect 8, running from a KDE taskbar, took one second to load, and zero (i.e., ZERO) second to import an HTML document. OTOH, Mandrake 9.0 beta 2 is not nearly as ready as Mandrake 8.2 beta 2 at an equivalent stage. Mandrake is laying off a bunch of people, including some core developers. Without a viable business model (it is now living "primarily" on gratituous club membership), I don't know how much longer it can survive. Very sad! ___ LUAU mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://videl.ics.hawaii.edu/mailman/listinfo/luau
[luau] Globe Productive Office Suite?
Has anyone tried the Globe Productive Office Suite for Linux or know anything about it? I just learned of it today in a ZDnet talkback. The person felt that it was better than Open Office.
Re: [luau] Linksys and Red Hat (Not)
Let's be honest. RedHat 7.3 totally suks on a personal PC. W. Wayne Liauh wrote: X doesn't work in distro Y, distro Y is negligent to desktop Linux." Red Hat is negligent toward desktop Linux for other reasons. =) > To be blunt, Warren, for a distro to not be able to detect a tulip-based NIC card, it sucks. ___ LUAU mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://videl.ics.hawaii.edu/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [luau] kpackage
Thanks for the complement, I gave a presentation on it at the CLUE monthly meeting (Colorado Linux Users and Enthusiasts) which seemed to be very well received. My presentation consisted of a big screen slide show which included screen shots and amusing slides prepared with Gimp and shown using "gqview." In addition to the side show was a printed handout that included more detailed information on exactly how to create your own custom ICE button menu system. I also gave away some CD-ROM disks with all the necessary files and graphics for my personal setup. W. Wayne Liauh wrote: KDE is great. However, if you are like me, who use Linux DESKTOP for a living, you will try to eliminate every possible source of problem, then you definitely want to use a simpler window manager. The best window manager for Linux is a "repackaged" version of IceWM, put together by our own George of Kailua. This is very different from the stock IceWM, and if you're serious about using Linux desktop for your business, you really should talk to George. ___ LUAU mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://videl.ics.hawaii.edu/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [luau] kpackage
Most people just want a usable system that is intuitive; and therefore requires little learning. lucidity wrote: I believe anybody trying to learn *nix or *nux, should know how to do it manually: Anonymous quote: Do you want to point and click, or do you want to *know how*?
Re: [luau] Login Screen in Red Hat
"gdm" and "kdm" are login programs. Any desktop or windowing environment can be selected from either one. For example you can select "gnome" from "kdm" or "kde" from "gdm". "Hence" you did the right thing. You wanted to used "kde" all the time and only wanted to change to "gdm" to get the option of selecting languages. W. Wayne Liauh wrote: That did the trick. (To play it safe, I manually editted the /etc/sysconfig/desktop file.) But I was really wondering why GDM Configurator didn't work. Also interestingly, changing the sysconfig/desktop file did not change the desktop; it only changed the login screen. But this is exactly what I wanted anyway. ___ LUAU mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://videl.ics.hawaii.edu/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [luau] MS Office, WordPerfect, StarOffice
In a nutshell, WP gives mush more control over the document than SO. Gary Sublett wrote: Wayne, I am somewhat familiar with your ongoing quest regarding WordPerfect and your opinion of potential substitutes. I find the included WSJ article interesting but it does little to explain, in detail, specific issues/problems with StarOffice/OpenOffice encountered by you or Mr. Mossberg. Do have a free cite to the acutal review by Mr. Mossberg? I am interested in where the alternatives to WordPerfect fail, in your or his opinion. Is it due to not performing as specified, don't have the required features, don't work like WordPerfect, the user not being familiar with the applications, or some other ___ (fill in the blank)? "Too complicated, quirky and buggy" does not provide much insight.
Re: [luau] News - Open Source Helix by RealNetworks will play all media files, even Windows
Initiatives such as this are exactly what the computer industry needs, however you can almost count on it that Apple and M$ won't cooperate. Warren Togami wrote: The Helix platform brings with it standardized APIs that will allow playback of most multimedia formats, including .wmf (Windows Media Player), .mov (Quicktime), and .rm (Real).
Re: [luau] Re: About the "anti-competitive" practices
I concur totally. There is a ton of subterfuge within the computer industry. Warren Togami wrote: That screams of suspiciousness to me.
Re: [luau] Underclocking / delta T
Very interesting observations. Jim Roby wrote: Also interesting that you don't see copper brake lines,always steel, even though they rust out.The steel is made to take higher pressure, and in refrigeration where the coolants use are noctious, the steel,rather than soft maliable copper provides better security for rupture. Hawaii building code will make you plumb a gas stove,or refrigerator with hard GI pipe,untill you get just to the connect point where copper tube, because it is pliable is used to make the final connect. And steel is cheaper to boot. "There are strange thing done neith the midnight sun by the men who maul for gold" :-)
Re: [luau] Underclocking / delta T
It is curious though that you almost never see a copper condensing coil on a domestic refrigerator. They are almost always steel. They don't even have aluminum or copper fins. Often they just use a matrix of steel wire. (It is the condensing coil that gives up heat to the ambient air.) This type of condenser is always a "static" condenser which has no fan. An interesting sidelight now is the comparison of a car with an engine that has an aluminum block to one that has a cast iron block. Aluminum blocks are lighter, but tend to warp and self distruct when over heated. A cast iron block is much more forgiving. Many people who have run out of water going over the Pali have had to have their engines replaced if it has an aluminum block, whereas a cast iron block might even seize up yet run perfectly fine again once it has cooled down. Aluminum wiring in houses is generally considered dangerous fire hazard today although it was installed in homes in the past as a cost cutting measure. Copper is the standard today. MonMotha wrote: Steel is probably ons of the worst materials for a heatsink precisely for the reason you gave: it doesn't move heat well. For a heatsink, the objective is to MOVE heat (this is why people with lots of heat to move LOVE peltiers). Remember, fans actually MAKE heat, but the reason they help cooling is because they move the air around. This means that the hot air resulting from the transfer of heat away from the sink is evacuated quickly and cool air is brought in. Again, larger delta T means faster heat transfer. It seems to me that after all this discussion that Wayne should learn to live with his fan as that in fact is the best system.
Re: [luau] Underclocking / Aluminum cases
But the issue is still how to do it without a fan motor. In the example of the Dell, they are substituting a case fan for a fan on the processor and it would have to have the case on to work properly. It's well known that ducting and cowlings on fans improve efficiency. The fact that you do a lot of little things to improve air flow shows you are both thoughtful and clever. MonMotha wrote: I guess you've never used a Dell Dimension XPS Dxxx series tower system. The processor has a big heatsink but no fan on it. Directly behind the processor is the case fan. Take the case off an run the CPU at 100% for long, proc overheats and halts. With the case on, run at 100% CPU for days, the heatsink is barely warm to touch. I've actually built white boxes with similar, though not so drastic, thermal characteristics. When I build systems, I usually consider airflow from the start, even down to selecting different brands of video cards due to how far back they extend! I route cables behind things, twist tie cables next to bracing, etc. all to improve airflow from front to back (I've even built a wacky system where I flipped the PSU fan and had air flowing from back to front). Most of my systems, when I'm done, have case temps within 0-3C of room temp, and CPU temps within 0-10C of case temp, but I've had systems where, due to good airflow, the CPU runs hotter with the case off (even though sometimes ambient system temp is lower) than with the case on. Good airflow allows for faster evacuation of the hot air produced by the CPU fan circulating air over the heatsink, thereby lowering the ambient temperature NEAR THE CPU, creating a greater delta T between the heatsink and air, allowing for faster heat transfer from the CPU heatsink to the air. --MonMotha
Re: [luau] Underclocking / Aluminum vs. Copper
Thanks, I didn't know about the copper heatsinks with variable fans as I tend to deal in used "budget" type items. There is very little I have in my life that is top of the line. MonMotha wrote: There are "standard" solid copper heatsinks. ThermalTake makes the Volcano 7+, which is solid copper AND has a variable speed fan (the Volcano 7 has an auto speed control while the 7+ doesn't though, odd...). Someone posted a link to the rather odd heatsink at ThinkGeek that appeared to be all copper. I do agree that solid copper is probably more expensive, but those costs are just passed on to the consumer. If you're willing to pay more, you get more. That's usually how the system works.
Re: [luau] Underclocking / Aluminum cases
An interesting idea. You could have a computer sealed in an oil bath case and then large fins on the outside of the case. The whole deal would look like a small version of the big commercial electrical transformers placed on the ground outside of larger buildings. This would be the sort of thing Steve Jobs would love as the computer would most likely be completely unserviceable and would probably have to be replaced in it's entirety rather than being repaired. If there is some way to make it in translucent plastic, I'm sure he would try to market it, especially if the connecting ports for accessories were different than the previous system. Eric Hattemer wrote: There are a few crazy people who submerge their entire motherboard and processor in a soup of a non-conductive oil solution. But I would be incredibly scared to do that, and I don't even know how well it works. But if the whole thing were in oil, you wouldn't need to worry about condensation, etc, so you could cool it in an icebox or something. Keep in mind that an icebox actually generates quite a bit of heat and has noise producing motors and fans.
Re: [luau] Underclocking / Aluminum cases
A properly designed case as far as heat release is concerned would have to have louvers for vents in the top of the case. The fans would have to take cooler air in from the bottom and exhaust it out the top. But again as for Wayne's issue, it would be best to have an open case and a huge static heat sink on the processor. Actually if processors were made bigger with more surface area for the heat sink then it might be possible to more easily eliminate the fan. One big disadvantages of electric fans is that they themselves create heat. Yuser wrote: I agree with this in theory but I have not seen it in real life. I have two computers with MB/CPU temperature monitors. Both temperatures run roughly 10F cooler on both computers with the case off. Maybe these are not well designed cases but I have not seen generic ATX or AT designs that were really any different elsewhere. Proprietary cases on mass produced PC's do seem to have some flow characteristics designed into them but they usually include some type of ducting to get it done.
Re: [luau] Underclocking / Aluminum cases
We've sort of beat this subject to death, but I think what we are looking for is a material that will quickly move the heat away from the source (processor chip) and then quickly give it up to the air. My gut feeling is that copper "holds" heat. whereas steel tends to give it up. I used to build custom marine refrigeration systems and it seems to me that when you solder a copper tube, the heat stays with it longer, whereas with steel the heat doesn't travel the tube as much. It tends to stay at the heat source and then cool down more quickly once the flame is removed. It may have been said before, but the idea behind fins is that they greatly increase the surface area and thus give up more heat to the air. Actually fans always improve cooling. The issue Wayne has is that he wants to eliminate the fan noise. Perhaps another approach would be to continue with a fan in a case with good ducting but concentrate on the noise reduction of the fans. It could be that these fans have resonate frequencies that are sympathetic with the case so it's possible that some sound deadening material applied to the outside of the case could greatly improve the situation. MonMotha wrote: The characteristic you're looking to minimize is Thermal Resistance. I'm no thermo expert though so possibly do some googling on what that is exactly. Copper will tend to suck the heat away faster and then the objective of the "fins" is to maximize contact between the copper and the air (much larger surface area than cpu core alone) to improve conduction between air and copper as the copper to copper conduction will occur readily to transfer the heat from the area of the CPU core up to the fins. --MonMotha
Re: [luau] Underclocking / Aluminum cases
It's my understanding that lowering the voltage on electric motors generally increases the heat buildup in the motor windings and leads to a shorter life expectancy of the motor. There are motor speed controllers that chop the wave. An interesting question would be: "How is the speed of a household fan controlled. I don't think they have true speed controllers. Most likely they just add a resistor in series with the fan motor. However, I'm just guessing, as I don't really know how they work. I do know that they tend to be very cheap, so whatever the solution is, it can't cost too much. Jim Roby wrote: Last night on slashdot was a link to water cooling,which leads to many interesting sites...total kit for $200 on one,also saw a page from a guy who says the fan can be quieted with out significant proformance loss by simply lowering the voltage from 12V to 7V...he does it by placing diods in line,observing curent flow(two in,two out)Commercially they sell a little inline gysmo that allows you to dial the fan RPM,believe $7. Wonder is /. reading our list? :-) Be really careful with desk/room fans as they have really ugly magnetic fields and can cause total EMI chaos in your comp. ... --MonMotha
Re: [luau] Underclocking / Aluminum cases
I just bought a Sharper Image "Ionic Breeze" only to learn that it puts out tons of radio interference. I can't listen to "Art Bell" without turning it off. With it on, my radio sounds like a UFO invasion. MonMotha wrote: Be really careful with desk/room fans as they have really ugly magnetic fields and can cause total EMI chaos in your comp.
Re: [luau] Underclocking / Aluminum vs. Copper
I think it "boils" down to cost. I solid copper heat sink probably is more efficient than aluminum, but would cost a lot more, weigh more, and perhaps would be more difficult to manufacture. Usually manufacturers choose the cheapest solution that is adequate for the job. Volkswagen probably uses an aluminum cored radiator with plastic tanks not because it's better, but because it's cheaper. Of course they could argue that it is lighter and thus enables the car to achieve better gas mileage. Ray Strode wrote: My feeling is that copper would tend to hold the heat, for example a copper clad bottom on a pot or skillet. I'm pretty certain that aluminum cooling fins are the most efficient, although aluminum car radiators aren't very good while car radiators with copper fins are common and easy to repair. Actually, I read somewhere (my physics book? not sure) that copper, aluminum, silver, and gold were all good conductors of heat, but the order of best to worst is: silver, copper, gold, aluminum. The idea is, if it's a better conductor of heat, then when it's used as a heat sink, the heat will away from the chip to it. where it can be cooled by the air (That's why heat sinks are in fins i think). Anyway, i'm certainly no expert, and could probably be wrong. Maybe one of the other people on the list that are, could verify what i'm saying. --Ray ___ LUAU mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://videl.ics.hawaii.edu/mailman/listinfo/luau
Re: [luau] Underclocking / Aluminum cases
Of course, but the original intent of the individual was to eliminate his fan therefore, you have to answer what is the best thing you can do once you have no fan. I doubt the best solution is to cover up the sources of heat. Robert Green wrote: Your idea of just leaving the cover off is less efficient than a well-designed case with good air flow via a case fan, unless you're going to use a room fan to blow into the open case (or other method to increase the air flow across the components). Without a strong air flow, you rely mainly on radiant heat transfer and natural convection. Forced convection using a fan / pump in a closed case is much more effecient, assuming the case has good air flow paths available.
