[LUTE] Besser als jeder andere

[Phalese]

Hi,

forget about the A, B and other lists we now have the official view from the 
DG magazine KlassikAkzente
"Edin Karamasow, 41, spielt Laute. Besser als jeder andere und vornehmlich 
mit Andreas Scholl. "

http://www.klassikakzente.de/edin_karamazov_die_laute_aus_dem_labyrinth_114921.jsp
Translated 
Edin Karamasow, 41, plays the lute. better than anyone else and preferably 
with Andreas Scholl.

I think this shows the sort of marketing the Sting CD uses - this is it, 
forget about everything else.

best wishes
Mark



















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[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting

[Phalese]

In einer eMail vom 11.10.2006 04:48:49 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]: 

> Andrew Lawrence-King has been sticking his double-harp everywhere he could, 
> 
> including Biber.
> Go bark up that tree.
> RT 
> 

I am not an expert on historical harps and maybe a double-harp is not the 
historically correct instrument.

But I must say that ALK has a feeling for ensemble playing that is totally 
lacking on the Dowland CD. This is probably caused mostly due to the recording 
method, which from videos seems to have been a typical rock set-up with them 
seperated acoustically. The TV performances are much better, probably due to 
this.

In the end, I as it seems most of the listeners who do not have a personal 
connection to the project or are sting fans, find the CD interesting before 
they 
hear it, but in the end musically unsatisfying. 

In a couple of months the media will have forgotten about it and in the end 
as I have said I don't think this CD will bring the big lute boom (sadly). But 
maybe that is good because if it means we have to return to the sort of 19th 
century view of music history that Sting favours. 

I personally think that the basis of any approach that claims, as sting does 
to be "closer than how anybody else to how the music would have sounded" need 
to be based on more serious research. If I was so interested in how the music 
sounded then maybe a single strung strung lute, vocal compression, digital 
reverb and such close miking are not the answer. In the end I would never say 
that my approach is closer than what anybody else has done. 

My view is that the claims Sting makes for his CD are false and misleading 
especially to an audience new to this repertoire.

best wishes
Mark


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[LUTE] Re: Terzi and hip

[Roman Turovsky]

>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
>>> No hip-police out there with a comment on this?
>> I hope I don't get thrown out of the force :)
>> Sounds good, pity Sting didn't give either of you a ring.
Or a snuffbox.
RT



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[LUTE] Re: Terzi and hip

[Roman Turovsky]

> [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
>> No hip-police out there with a comment on this?
> I hope I don't get thrown out of the force :)
> Sounds good, pity Sting didn't give either of you a ring.
Wrong league.

> rubato at all the difficult parts and bad ensemble playing on Mr. Stings 
> CD. If
> he uses a single string Les Paul that is his choice.
> Just don't say it is an historical lute.
I saw Cezar Mateus make it. It6 is perfectly historical.


>
> I would do some shameful promotion of my new CD, but it seems to be doing
> quite well on it's own, it went stright to the top of the magnatune charts 
> and so
> far using the same method as Roman it seems we have sold just over 1/300th 
> of
> what Sting has sold here in Germany, but we have less than a 1/300th of 
> the
> promotion. But our reviews are a bit more positive than Sting's:)
I couldn't form an impression, therefore I have no opinion about it
RT




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[LUTE] Re: Karamazov and Sting

[Roman Turovsky]

>> have just come home from the Karamazov/Sting gig here in NYC, and it was
<> EXCELLENT. Karamazov on 3 DOUBLESTRUNG archlutes and an 8course, and 
Sting
>> on a singlestrung archlute

>Live does sound much better and quite diferant to the CD. I also know that 
>he
>"now" uses double strung instruments live, but I am still not convinced 
>about
>the CD.
Some of the best lutenists sound better live than on CD. You know who I 
mean.
There are a few who sound good on CD, but are insufferable live.
RT




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[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting

[Roman Turovsky]

>
> Nobody here (apart from Sting) is claiming to have the ultimate way.
>
> I think if I say a single strung archlute is the wrong instrument for
> performing this music in a HIP way, then until someone can give me 
> evidence that such
> an instrument existed then I am not being elitest or purist.
>
> Mark
Andrew Lawrence-King has been sticking his double-harp everywhere he could, 
including Biber.
Go bark up that tree.
RT 




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[LUTE] Re: Hip and Sting

[chriswilke]

--- Stewart McCoy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> 
> I can't think of any words which rhyme with
> Karamazov.
> 
How 'bout "get your rocks off?"..."knock your socks
off?"

Chris

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[LUTE] Hip and Sting

[Stewart McCoy]

Dear Stuart,

Don't tempt me ...

There once was a singer called Sting,
Whose archlute was covered in bling.
He liked it that way,
It was easy to play,
'Cos each course had got only one string.

There once was a fellow called Sting.
In the pop music world, he was King.
He said with a smile,
As his disks earned a pile,
"Should I care if you hate how I sing?"

I can't think of any words which rhyme with Karamazov.

-o-O-o-

By the way, some of the recent criticisms of Sting's Dowland CD have
an unfortunate whiff of jealousy - that other musicians are more
worthy of success. None of us owns Dowland. His music is for all of
us to enjoy in whatever way we please. I am reminded of John
Betjeman's Church Mouse, who resents other rodents coming into
church at Harvest Festival:

"... But how annoying when one finds
That other mice with pagan minds
Come into church my food to share
Who have no proper business there ..."

Good luck to Sting and Karamazov. I wish them well.

Stewart McCoy.


- Original Message -
From: "Stuart LeBlanc" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 12:03 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Hip and Sting


>
> There once was a lute email list
> No rancor or bile ever missed
> The offending thing
> Came from one named Sting
> Thus all of the listers got pissed





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[LUTE] *Musical Air India Disaster*

[Benjamin Narvey]

Dear All,

An American musician friend has just sent this story to me from today's New
York Times, which recounts the terrible recent saga of a musician (trumpet)
trying to get his instrument on board a flight from Paris to New York in
this time of heightened airport security...

Lutenists be careful!  We can't afford to have broken arms...

Best,

B


Clash Over Airline's Policy Leaves a Musician Injured
Doreen Carvajal. New York Times. (Late Edition (East Coast)). New
York, N.Y.: Oct 10, 2006. pg. B.3
Author(s):  Doreen Carvajal



Full Text (685   words)
Copyright New York Times Company Oct 10, 2006
As international authorities strive to harmonize myriad rules for
carry-on flight luggage, a Russian-American jazz musician is nursing
a broken arm he said he suffered in a struggle with French airport
police over his right to board with a prized trumpet.
The musician, Valery Ponomarev, 63, a former member of Art Blakey's
Jazz Messengers, was preparing to board an Air India flight on Sept.
9 from Paris to New York City, where he lives, when a routine airport
ritual erupted into a fierce dispute over his 1961 Connstellation
trumpet.
''If you've ever played a musical instrument, then you should know
how strong the bond is between the musician and the instrument,'' Mr.
Ponomarev said. ''You wouldn't give your baby away to anybody, and so
you wouldn't give away your horn.''
In his case, the ties were so powerful that he simply would not let
go of his trumpet case, which also contained a fluegelhorn.
But the authorities were not sympathetic and maintain that the
trumpeter was uncooperative in a time of heightened security.
According to Mr. Ponomarev, when he arrived late to board an evening
flight, a flustered Air India employee retrieved his trumpet from a
luggage belt at a security checkpoint without explanation to place it
in the plane's hold.
Mr. Ponomarev protested vigorously, he said, because he had hand-
carried the instrument on an earlier connecting flight and also had
noticed that another passenger was carrying aboard a sitar. His angry
complaints attracted the notice of an Air India supervisor, who
summoned the police.
Four officers came running to take his trumpet case, but Mr.
Ponomarev refused to give it to them, and one of them subdued him by
wrenching his arm behind his back and, according to the musician,
breaking it.
The airport authorities and the police confirm that the episode took
place as Mr. Ponomarev was boarding the flight at Charles de Gaulle
airport. But in the view of the police, the musician bears
responsibility for his injury.
''The officers tried to subdue him, and you can say that he hurt
himself by rebelling,'' said a spokesman for the airport police.
H. Rana, the regional manager for Air India's Paris office, said
airline employees called the police because Mr. Ponomarev insisted on
carrying his music case on board. She said that Air India requires
the check-in of large instruments.
In Europe, carry-on luggage rules vary among airlines. Last week, the
European Commission moved to standardize the rules with new
regulations taking effect next spring that restrict the amount of
liquids carried aboard for personal use and limit carry-on luggage
size. But there may be exemptions for some cameras and musical
instruments.
The rule change comes too late for Mr. Ponomarev, who said that after
his arm was broken he was held in detention without treatment for six
hours and was not allowed to make any calls. Ultimately, he was taken
to a hospital where one of the doctors loaned him a cellphone to
contact the United States Embassy.
After surgery, Mr. Ponomarev returned on September 13 to the United
States on another Air India flight. With a metal plate holding the
bones of his left arm together, Mr. Ponomarev said the break had an
immediate effect on his career: He was forced to cancel a musical
engagement and limit his daily practice because it is too painful to
hold the trumpet with a weakened arm.
By late September, though, he decided to participate in a long-
scheduled jazz concert in Russia, where he was born, although he has
lived in the United States since 1973. The announcer, he said,
explained to the audience that Mr. Ponomarev was playing despite a
struggle with the French police.
''I think the audience thought that he was joking,'' Mr. Ponomarev
said, but he still took the microphone to correct the announcer:
''They didn't win the battle. They broke my arm. But the horn is
still with me.''
[Photograph]
Valery Ponomarev performing at a Lincoln Center concert in 2003. Mr.
Ponomarev's arm was broken in September at a French airport. (Photo
by Jack Vartoogian/Front RowPhotos)


Credit: International Herald Tribune



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http://www.luthiste.com

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[LUTE] Today Show

[Robert Clair]

A video is at:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12065856/

Look under "Tuesday's Videos" for a link "Sting on his new album"

Those who haven't had their minimum daily requirement of schlock will  
appreciate the candles.

As Dan said, they do "Come again". Sting plays his single-strung  
whatever, Edin plays a (definitely double strung) 8 course lute made  
by Ray Nurse. I'll leave the enthusiasts to decide whether the sound  
needs to be blamed on something and if so whether it is the player or  
the recording.  It's not the instrument - I've played that one and it  
makes a lovely sound.

...Bob



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[LUTE] Re: Too soft to live, was The last word goes to Sting

[Rob Dorsey]

Caroline,

Also consider the "NASCAR" effect. Once various music and musicians, and
therefore instruments, were no longer arterially propped up by the support
of wealthy and royal patronage, they depended on the popularity of the
masses. It is as hard for us to imagine a world without electronics as it is
to imagine, say, infinity or our own death. However, until the 20th century
there was no music in a home unless someone played it. With the rise of an
educated middle class, brought about chiefly by the industrial revolution,
not to mention a couple of other revolutions, people wanted music in their
homes but could not afford to hire it played. This gave rise to the vast
proliferation of the keyboard instruments centered in the forte piano after
about 1780. For the little veheula or baroque guitar to become the universal
popular instrument of the late 19th and 20th centuries is about as probable
as a lemur becoming Einstein. The only thing more odd is that that's just
what happened.

In today's world, and most of the 19th and 20th centuries, we love what we
know and can relate to. The Elector of Saxony didn't care that he knew
little of the lute. He just knew what he liked to hear. Later, proletariat
listeners wanted something to which they could directly relate. The American
masses love NASCAR because they all drive a car. Formula 1 is more obscure
because it is hard for them to relate to it as a car. They love piano
because they either have one in the parlor or their mothers made them take
lessons as a child so they have an understanding of it. They love the guitar
because they once played one. With all respect and deference to those
devotees of the classical guitar on this list, they like because it's easy
to play. The lute is not much harder to play but is hard to get up to any
recognizable level of listening. Take a $300 Alverez and Mel Bay's guitar
book and you can be strumming out 6 chords and playing a tune or two in an
afternoon. In short, the guitar is easy to play but difficult to play well.
The lute is just harder.

The collective consciousness likes what's easy and familiar. This projects
into our universities as well. If you go to most university web sites you
have to hunt through pages of athletic program links before you can find the
music department much less any guitar or lute programs. And, when you do,
even at "major" universities you might be surprised to find that the
"guitar/lute" program is one dedicated and cruelly underpaid professor.

Music came to the masses. When it did they chose what was easy. Simplistic
perhaps but give it a thought.

Best,
Rob Dorsey
http://RobDorsey.com 

-Original Message-
From: Caroline Usher [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 11:20 AM
To: lutelist
Subject: [LUTE] Too soft to live, was The last word goes to Sting

At 06:24 AM 10/10/2006, gary digman wrote:
>I think the lute died for the same reason all the soft voiced 
>insturments died, i.e. the plucked keyboards (spinets, clavichords, 
>harpsichords, etc), the violas da gamba, and at the same time. When the 
>concert hall was invented in the early 18th century, the idea was to 
>put as many rear ends in as many seats as possible. Thus the loud voiced
instruments fell into favor.

But the guitar survived, and it did not become a concert-hall instrument
until the 20th century.  There's a massive amount of chamber music from the
19th century.  Why couldn't the lute have continued equally with the guitar
in that setting?

I don't know the answer but I am pretty sure that it's not lack of volume.
Caroline


Caroline Usher
DCMB Administrative Coordinator
613-8155, Room B343 LSRC
Mailing address:  Box 91000, Duke University, Durham NC 27708



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[LUTE] Re: Wendy Carlos -- Lute Innovation

[Howard Posner]

Since I seem to have set at least one person searching, I should 
correct my earlier post: the Carlos 2nd Brandenburg was on the "By 
Request" album.  "The Well-Tempered Synthesizer" had the 4th 
Brandenburg.  I know there's also a complete set of Carlos 
Brandenburgs, but I don't know if he did them all anew or just added 
the ones s/he hadn't already recorded.



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[LUTE] Re: Karamazov and Sting

[JCetra]

Dear All:
 What I'm interested in is whether the next time one of us HIPsters does a 
Dowland concert, any more people show up as a result of Sting stirring the 
waters.
Cheers,
Jim

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[LUTE] Re: Angelique (olim Another Theorbo Question)

[chriswilke]

--- "Mathias Rösel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> 
> As for this initial question, we've now reached the
> point where the
> _tessiture_ are compared: e'-C (angelique) vs. d'-C
> (lesser, or French,
> theorbo). 
 
No, as I mentioned in my last message, the range of
the open strings is _exactly_ the same.  Not just
similar.  Again, going by James Talbot's description
of the angelique:

theorbo in "D", (diaonically) from bottom sting
upwards: C,D,E,F,G,A,B,c,d,g,c',e',a,d'; 17-string
angelique: C,D,E,F,G,A,B,c,d,e,f,g,a,b,c',d',e'.  

Don't let those gaps of fourths, thirds and fifths in
the upper register of the theorbo confuse you.  Note
that the highest sounding string of the theorbo (e')
is the _third_ string, not the "top" string (d') which
is really a second lower.  This cooresponds exactly to
the highest string of the angelique (also e'). 
Placement on the instrument is different, but it
produces the same sound.

I will concede that with its "staggered" tuning, the
traditional theorbo placement of strings is quite
different than that of the angelique.  But it is this
very re-entrant tuning that makes all kinds of
harp-like effects possible.  These companellas are
very frequently used by French theorbo composers to
great effect.

In fact, it is possible to play a descending step-wise
scale all the way from the theorbo's highest open
string (e' in our case) to the bottom of its register
using only THREE stopped notes.  (This makes for a
scale of 17 notes - just like the open strings of the
angelique).  One finds the second between the open
fifth and second courses, and the series of seconds
between the fourth, first, and third strings appearing
together melodically over and over in theorbo music.  

I have done no scientific research, but it seems that
the key of G major (for theorbo in A - this should be
the key of C for our lesser theorbo) may possibly be
the most favored key employed by theorbo composers. 
Works in G major make up by far the largest collection
of theorbo pieces in the Saizenay MS., as well as
among Charles Hurel's suites and it appears very often
in the Goess MS (don't have time to go through it
personally at the moment).  Why?  Precisely to make as
much use as possible of the harp-effects possible in
this key!  These effects are also used in other keys
of course, but owing to the needed use of more fretted
notes, are less noticable there.  

For someone who really got a kick out of these
overlapping notes on theorbo, it would be a small step
to add some extra strings to take the place of the
three fretted notes I mentioned above, arrange all of
them stepwise rather than bouncing back and forth
re-entrant-wise and - viola! - an angelique. 


What's more, surviving lesser
> theorbos still are
> larger (75 VSL) than surviving angeliques (54-70 cm
> VSL).

So?  These are just surviving instruments.  They tell
us very little about the mass of instruments that
didn't survive.  We're the blind men in a room each
describing an elephant from out own perspective.  I'm
proposing what most likely occured.


> (when you listen to
> recordings by Jorge Moreno)

I guess Moreno would know from research and
experience...  He says in the liner notes to 'Pieces
de theorbes Francaises,' "The angelique may
undoubtedly be classed in the family of theorbos." 

Take care,

Chris



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[LUTE] Re: Wendy Carlos -- Lute Innovation

[Howard Posner]

On Tuesday, Oct 10, 2006, at 10:35 America/Los_Angeles, Michael Fink 
wrote:

> BTW, I am the composer/arranger of "Monteverdiana" and very honored 
> that the
> LAGQ recorded it during their Delos years. I would like to know which 
> "LP"
> contains other Monteverdi tracks. I checked the listing for SO-B and 
> found
> nothing but Bach, and the LAGQ recording (tracks 10, 11, and 12) 
> contains no
> other Monteverdi. Can you clarify?

By the "same LP" I meant Carlos' Well-Tempered Synthesizer, which 
contains Deus in adjutorium/Dominus ad adjuvandum sequence from the 
1610 Vespers and a suite of numbers from Orfeo.  I am, obviously, 
surprised you're not familiar with it.  Shows what I know...



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[LUTE] Re: Wendy Carlos -- Lute Innovation

[Michael Fink]

I agree that Walter/Wendy Carlos's original SO-B record was epoch-making --
literally! It kicked off a whole slew of synthesized recordings of classical
music, most notably Tomita's series and Carlos's own later recordings.

I have just completed 5 years of the same sort of arranging resulting in 2
CDs (only one on the market thus far), and I can tell you that creating the
tracks is much the same slow, painstaking work now as it was then. Then, you
would add tracks directly to the multi-track recorder. Now, you build them
up in a computer sequencer before transferring to a recording device. It's
the same process whether you are using an analog or digital
generator/synthesizer.

BTW, I am the composer/arranger of "Monteverdiana" and very honored that the
LAGQ recorded it during their Delos years. I would like to know which "LP"
contains other Monteverdi tracks. I checked the listing for SO-B and found
nothing but Bach, and the LAGQ recording (tracks 10, 11, and 12) contains no
other Monteverdi. Can you clarify?

Mike Fink

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
___


-Original Message-
From: Howard Posner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 11:38 AM
To: Christopher Schaub
Cc: 'Lute Net'
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Wendy Carlos -- Lute Innovation


On Tuesday, Oct 10, 2006, at 09:05 America/Los_Angeles, Christopher 
Schaub wrote:

> Wendy Carlos' Switched on Bach is an amazing recording, not lame,
> period. I'll bet very few "virtuoso" Bach curators/specialists could 
> pull it
> off on a MOOG synthesizer. The MOOG is very primitive by today's 
> standards,
> and it's amazing that she could pull off anything close to that 
> recording. Seriously, playing Bach on a MOOG is not like playing a 
> synth today, more like an organ since it's an analog device. I think 
> the MOOG would even lose its tuning and need to be tweaked during the 
> performance via knobs.

Those performances were spliced together.  They had to be, if only 
because the synthesizer wasn't polyphonic in those days, so even if 
there were no other problems, you could play only one line at a time, 
unless you placed multiple synthesizers all over the place a la Keith 
Emerson.

That said, Carlos' Bach was in many ways closer to the mark than 
mainstream Bach performances of the 1960's.  Compare his Second 
Brandenburg (on the Well-Tempered Synthesizer LP) to the 
screaming-piccolo-trumpet or soprano-sax versions available on 
recordings then.   BTW, I recently heard the LA Guitar Quartet's 
"Monteverdiana," which owes a lot to the Monteverdi cuts on the same LP.



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[LUTE] Re: Karamazov and Sting

[chriswilke]

--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> I think in the end the big "Lute Boom" will not come
> about through this CD, 
> because in the end the lute doesn't sound anything
> like a lute on the CD.

Most non-musicians can not distinguish, or even care
to distinguish, the difference between the sound of a
modern classical guitar or that of a lute.  Most
serious classical non-early musicians can distinguish
(some can't) but would have little preference for
either instrument.  Most non-lute playing musicians
who specialize in early music would not be able to
distinguish whether the lute sound on Sting's
recording is good or bad.

Opinion among the lutenists is itself divided. 
Doesn't amount to much in the big picture.


CW

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[LUTE] Re: Sting

[Jo . Luedtke]

Dear Alfonso and all,
 "Alfonso Marin"  schrieb:

[snip]
> Initially, before listening to the CD, I was very curious about the  
> whole project and I really trusted that  at least an interesting  
> musical result would come out of it. I am now very disappointed by  
> the result.
[snip]
it's the same with me, although I have to admit that I only listened to
two of the tracks during a radio broadcast yesterday's evening (and it
was of no help to any positive appreciation that before these two tracks
from the Sting/Edin CD there was something to be heard from POD's
Bacheler recording).
"Roxanne, you don't have to play this record tonight", and regardless if
there's a moon over Bourbon Street or not I think this new Dowland CD
fails ... but at least the general Dowland awareness index will rise by
a few points ...
All best wishes,
Joachim
> --
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
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> 
> 
  
-- 
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Frühlingsstraße 9a
D - 93164 Laaber
Tel. +49-+9498 / 905 188

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[LUTE] Re: Sting

[Daniel Shoskes]

 Sorry, I can't help flogging this dead horse.

I heard a feed of the Sting appearance on the Today show. He sang Come Again 
and I have to say it sounded MUCH better live than on the recording. The lute 
unfortunately sounded worse, but a TV studio was never the best place for an 
instrument to shine.

DS

On Tuesday, October 10, 2006, at 11:27AM, David M Eisenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:

>All - We may all end up in agreement that Sting's Dowland is not of the
>highest musical standard.  But for heaven's sake, this morning Sting was
>on the "Today Show" (one of America's most popular TV shows), pitching
>John Dowland.  Has any Renaissance composer ever enjoyed this kind of
>exposure?   And Sting is one of the world's most popular musicians, so
>his album will reach many listeners.
>



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[LUTE] Re: Wendy Carlos -- Lute Innovation

[Howard Posner]

On Tuesday, Oct 10, 2006, at 09:05 America/Los_Angeles, Christopher 
Schaub wrote:

> Wendy Carlos' Switched on Bach is an amazing recording, not lame,
> period. I'll bet very few "virtuoso" Bach curators/specialists could 
> pull it
> off on a MOOG synthesizer. The MOOG is very primitive by today's 
> standards,
> and it's amazing that she could pull off anything close to that 
> recording. Seriously, playing Bach on a MOOG is not like playing a 
> synth today, more like an organ since it's an analog device. I think 
> the MOOG would even lose its tuning and need to be tweaked during the 
> performance via knobs.

Those performances were spliced together.  They had to be, if only 
because the synthesizer wasn't polyphonic in those days, so even if 
there were no other problems, you could play only one line at a time, 
unless you placed multiple synthesizers all over the place a la Keith 
Emerson.

That said, Carlos' Bach was in many ways closer to the mark than 
mainstream Bach performances of the 1960's.  Compare his Second 
Brandenburg (on the Well-Tempered Synthesizer LP) to the 
screaming-piccolo-trumpet or soprano-sax versions available on 
recordings then.   BTW, I recently heard the LA Guitar Quartet's 
"Monteverdiana," which owes a lot to the Monteverdi cuts on the same LP.



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[LUTE] Re: Wendy Carlos -- Lute Innovation

[Christopher Schaub]

Ummm, Wendy Carlos' Switched on Bach is an amazing recording, not lame,
period. I'll bet very few "virtuoso" Bach curators/specialists could pull it
off on a MOOG synthesizer. The MOOG is very primitive by today's standards,
and it's amazing that she could pull off anything close to that recording.
Seriously, playing Bach on a MOOG is not like playing a synth today, more
like an organ since it's an analog device. I think the MOOG would even lose
its tuning and need to be tweaked during the performance via knobs. Also,
many people got into classical music and Bach from this recording. Wendy
seems to be a true genius -- check out her website for more. 

Innovation is at the heart of "luteness!" 
:?)


-Original Message-
From: David M Eisenberg [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 11:27 AM
To: Alfonso Marin; Lute Net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Sting

All - We may all end up in agreement that Sting's Dowland is not of the
highest musical standard.  But for heaven's sake, this morning Sting was on
the "Today Show" (one of America's most popular TV shows), pitching John
Dowland.  Has any Renaissance composer ever enjoyed this kind of
exposure?   And Sting is one of the world's most popular musicians, so
his album will reach many listeners.

I'm very new to the lute, but I sit on the boards of chamber music and
orchestral organizations, and feel confident in stating that the single
biggest challenge facing all "classical" music organizations is ATTRACTING
NEW AUDIENCES. We might all be happier if this album were of the same
standard as, e.g., Keith Jarrett's very fine recording of Shostakovich
Preludes & Fugues.  But let's face it; Sting will reach 1,000 times as many
people as Jarrett. 

Let's assume - conservatively, perhaps - that 100,000 people are exposed to
Sting's Dowland.  Suppose that even 3% of those people come away (no pun
intended!) saying, "wow, that's great stuff - I'd like to hear some more
Dowland", and go out looking for concerts or recordings of Dowland.
That's another 3,000 people in the plus column.

Those with longish memories may recall Wendy (then Walter) Carlos'
"Switched-on Bach" (i.e., played on synthesizers), and the Swingle Singers'
light-jazz Bach vocals.  The former, in my view, was pretty lame; the
latter, not bad.  I certainly didn't love either, but was happy that lots of
albums were sold, and many, many more people were listening to Bach. 

So, despite its flaws, we should be happy (even if grudgingly) that we have
this new recording, and not look this "gift horse" in the mouth.

David Eisenberg

-Original Message-
From: Alfonso Marin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 9:46 AM
To: Lute Net
Subject: [LUTE] Sting

Dear all,

I did not want to get into the discussion about Sting's CD because I did not
want to sound as a frustrated and envious lutenist complaining about how
unfair the whole matter actually is. I do understand all the criticism and
frustration that this story has created in the lutelist. I understand it
because I am a professional lutenist that has passed the last 6 years
performing and studying the lute-song repertoire, have spent many years of
my life practicing like crazy, have been promoting with all my energy my duo
with the soprano Valeria Mignaco ( which, modesty aside, I believe it to be
of the highest level) only to get a few modesty payed concerts per year with
it. Some days ago, in the Spanish television, they covered the news about
the Sting CD by saying that he is not only a great pop musician but an
excelent "classical"
singer that have re-discovered an unknown composer called John Dowland.
As  you can imagine, those commentaries can indeed very frustrating for
those of us (lutenists and singers) that have been devoting ourselves with
all our hearts to study that repertoire aiming to peform it to the highest
possible level. In just a few days, we do not count anymore. The fact is
that Sting is nowadays the highest  authority on Dowland and by extension on
the lutesong repertoire, not only for the general public but also for the
more specialized classical music connoisseurs. A musician friend of mine was
having dinner some days ago with the very famous classical pianists Katia
and Marielle Lab=E8que. They were really amazed by the recording and they
also though that he is truly brilliant!
Let's face it,  most of the people, even very talented famous classical
musicians, have never heard a good Dowland recording or concert in their
lives and now, by the media exposure of the Sting CD they have been
acquainted with the repertoire and they associate it to Sting and they think
it is a great Dowland singer. They do not have a point of comparison. I
guess many also assume that if it comes from Sting, "It must be good!". We
have a say in spanish that reads:  
"In the country of the blinds, the one-eyed person is the king". So we have
a new king of the lutesong and his name is STING.
Initially, before listeni

[LUTE] [Re: Too soft to live, was The last word goes to Sting]

[Doctor Oakroot]

Whoops. Forgot to press Reply-All. Now I remember why I never post to this
list.

 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Too soft to live, was The last word goes to Sting
From:"Doctor Oakroot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date:Tue, October 10, 2006 11:55 am
To:  "Caroline Usher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--


>But the guitar survived, and it did not become a concert-hall instrument
> until the 20th century.  There's a massive amount of chamber music from
> the 19th century.  Why couldn't the lute have continued equally with the
> guitar in that setting?
>
> I don't know the answer but I am pretty sure that it's not lack of volume.
> Caroline
>
It may just be that the guitar is much easier (and therefore cheaper) to
build. You can afford to pay lavishly for a main stream popular
instrument, but for the second-line, lower pay gig you need to stay within
budget.

It may also be that both really died out until certain individuals.. Sor
through Segovia... started pushing such an instrument and they happened to
be guitarists.

-- 
http://DoctorOakroot.com - Rough-edged songs on homemade GIT-tars.


-- 
http://DoctorOakroot.com - Rough-edged songs on homemade GIT-tars.



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[LUTE] too soft?

[ConoS]

In a message dated 10/10/06 8:22:13 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


> But the guitar survived, and it did not become a concert-hall instrument 
> until the 20th century.- There's a massive amount of chamber music from the 
> 19th century.- Why couldn't the lute have continued equally with the guitar 
> in 
> that setting?
> 

Giuliani performed his Concerto with full orchestra, (including 2 oboes, 2 
bassoons, & flutes) on April 3, 1808 in Vienna's Redoutensaal (sp?). There are 
many accounts of guitarists playing in concerts halls in the 19th century.   I 
think that much of this has to do with the punctuation of single strings, 
whether the player used nails. Note that Sor (an advocate of playing without 
nails) composed very little chamber & orchestral music with guitar although he 
was 
an exceptionally good orchestral composer (I have discovered a number of these 
pieces). Fernando Ferrandiere (who advocated nails on a 6 double course 
guitar) composed   lots of chamber music and works for guitar and orchestra. 
(1790's).   The hall also makes a a big difference.

I am not saying that the guitar is equal to a cello in these settings, but it 
can hold its own as a solo & chamber instrument in a 300- 700 seat hall.

By the way, at the risk of being accused of self promotion (which is what 
this clearly is!) Koch International has just released vol. 1 my multi cd 
project 
titled "The Essential Giuliani." This is a double cd and features reknowned 
violinist Monica Huggett, soprano Jennifer Ellis (a finalist in last year's 
Early Music America competition), cellist William Skeen and the Portland 
Baroque 
Orchestra.

My intention is to show Giuliani's diversity and depth as a composer, which 
is all too often easily dismissed. A number of the pieces on this cd have never 
been recorded, and if they were this is the first time on a period instrument 
without cuts. The featured works include an exquisite song cycle with texts 
by Metastasio, the Trio for Violin, Cello, & Guitar; the OP. 30 Concerto 
complete with full orchestration; the Duo Sonata, Op. 85, a set of virtuoso 
variations for violin and guitar, and a number of solo chestnuts: Rossiniana 
(Op. 
119); Grand Overture, Variations on La Folia and the Sonatine Op. 71, #3).

The Essential Giuliani Vol 1

Take Care,

R Savino


 

--

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[LUTE] Re: Too soft to live, was The last word goes to Sting

[Eugene C. Braig IV]

At 11:19 AM 10/10/2006, Caroline Usher wrote:
>At 06:24 AM 10/10/2006, gary digman wrote:
> >I think the lute died for the same reason all the soft voiced insturments
> >died, i.e. the plucked keyboards (spinets, clavichords, harpsichords, etc),
> >the violas da gamba, and at the same time. When the concert hall was
> >invented in the early 18th century, the idea was to put as many rear ends in
> >as many seats as possible. Thus the loud voiced instruments fell into favor.
>
>But the guitar survived, and it did not become a concert-hall instrument 
>until the 20th century.  There's a massive amount of chamber music from 
>the 19th century.  Why couldn't the lute have continued equally with the 
>guitar in that setting?
>
>I don't know the answer but I am pretty sure that it's not lack of volume.

Just a couple random musings, and I'm happy to hear some scholarly 
refinement/correction.  The baroque aesthetic lost sway and a taste to more 
fully exploit modulation emerged (extended development sections in 
sonata-allegro form, e.g.).  Diapasons and strings with open diatonic 
tunings aren't so modulation-friendly, and modulation to remote keys thus 
limits the functional range of an instrument that relies heavily on open 
diatonic strings, as most lute-like things of the time did.  Most guitars 
are fully fret-able throughout their range.  Lute tried with things like 
mandora.  Also, guitars quickly moved to single-strung as the status quo in 
the late 18th-early 19th c.  I think single-string tone might lend itself a 
bit better to the clear and simple symmetry through contrasts that evolved 
with the classical aesthetic.

Eugene 



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[LUTE] Re: Sting

[David M Eisenberg]

All - We may all end up in agreement that Sting's Dowland is not of the
highest musical standard.  But for heaven's sake, this morning Sting was
on the "Today Show" (one of America's most popular TV shows), pitching
John Dowland.  Has any Renaissance composer ever enjoyed this kind of
exposure?   And Sting is one of the world's most popular musicians, so
his album will reach many listeners.

I'm very new to the lute, but I sit on the boards of chamber music and
orchestral organizations, and feel confident in stating that the single
biggest challenge facing all "classical" music organizations is
ATTRACTING NEW AUDIENCES. We might all be happier if this album were of
the same standard as, e.g., Keith Jarrett's very fine recording of
Shostakovich Preludes & Fugues.  But let's face it; Sting will reach
1,000 times as many people as Jarrett. 

Let's assume - conservatively, perhaps - that 100,000 people are exposed
to Sting's Dowland.  Suppose that even 3% of those people come away (no
pun intended!) saying, "wow, that's great stuff - I'd like to hear some
more Dowland", and go out looking for concerts or recordings of Dowland.
That's another 3,000 people in the plus column.

Those with longish memories may recall Wendy (then Walter) Carlos'
"Switched-on Bach" (i.e., played on synthesizers), and the Swingle
Singers' light-jazz Bach vocals.  The former, in my view, was pretty
lame; the latter, not bad.  I certainly didn't love either, but was
happy that lots of albums were sold, and many, many more people were
listening to Bach. 

So, despite its flaws, we should be happy (even if grudgingly) that we
have this new recording, and not look this "gift horse" in the mouth.

David Eisenberg

-Original Message-
From: Alfonso Marin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 9:46 AM
To: Lute Net
Subject: [LUTE] Sting

Dear all,

I did not want to get into the discussion about Sting's CD because I did
not want to sound as a frustrated and envious lutenist complaining about
how unfair the whole matter actually is. I do understand all the
criticism and frustration that this story has created in the lutelist. I
understand it because I am a professional lutenist that has passed the
last 6 years performing and studying the lute-song repertoire, have
spent many years of my life practicing like crazy, have been promoting
with all my energy my duo with the soprano Valeria Mignaco ( which,
modesty aside, I believe it to be of the highest level) only to get a
few modesty payed concerts per year with it. Some days ago, in the
Spanish television, they covered the news about the Sting CD by saying
that he is not only a great pop musician but an excelent "classical"
singer that have re-discovered an unknown composer called John Dowland.
As  you can imagine, those commentaries can indeed very frustrating for
those of us (lutenists and singers) that have been devoting ourselves
with all our hearts to study that repertoire aiming to peform it to the
highest possible level. In just a few days, we do not count anymore. The
fact is that Sting is nowadays the highest  authority on Dowland and by
extension on the lutesong repertoire, not only for the general public
but also for the more specialized classical music connoisseurs. A
musician friend of mine was having dinner some days ago with the very
famous classical pianists Katia and Marielle Lab=E8que. They were really
amazed by the recording and they also though that he is truly brilliant!
Let's face it,  most of the people, even very talented famous classical
musicians, have never heard a good Dowland recording or concert in their
lives and now, by the media exposure of the Sting CD they have been
acquainted with the repertoire and they associate it to Sting and they
think it is a great Dowland singer. They do not have a point of
comparison. I guess many also assume that if it comes from Sting, "It
must be good!". We have a say in spanish that reads:  
"In the country of the blinds, the one-eyed person is the king". So we
have a new king of the lutesong and his name is STING.
Initially, before listening to the CD, I was very curious about the
whole project and I really trusted that  at least an interesting musical
result would come out of it. I am now very disappointed by the result. I
do not advocate necessarily for a  classical voice to sing early music.
In fact, this summer i was accompanying singers in a course by Marco
Beasley in Brugge, who also sings with "non classical" natural voice and
I was really amazed about what this man can do. Obiously you can sing
early music with a natural voice with very good results but most
important of all, you need to understand the music, the words, the
style, the culture in which that repertoire was created. If you would
only need a natural voice, my mother could also sing Dowland! The fact
is that Sting do not have a pleasant voice for early music. It is great
for pop and rock but it is quite rough for early music, especial

[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting

[Caroline Usher]

At 06:36 AM 10/10/2006, Francesco Tribioli wrote:
>I've decided: I'll remove all my octaves, and double strings, and gut
>strings. I'll get an archlute and will try the pop lutenist career. Perhaps
>Mark and me could found a new group named "The HIP Police" and the
>repertoire will be Sting music arranged for two archlutes. RT, if you are
>clever we might even allow you to play the bass line on your own axe ;^)))

Actually, our lamented friend Dawn Culbertson, who passed away far too young, 
used to do Iggy Pop songs and other such on the lute.  It wasn't a schtick, she 
loved the music and she loved the lute.

Well, she knew it had a funny side, clearly, but she was also deeply serious 
about it.
Caroline



Caroline Usher
DCMB Administrative Coordinator
613-8155, Room B343 LSRC
Mailing address:  Box 91000, Duke University, Durham NC 27708



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[LUTE] Too soft to live, was The last word goes to Sting

[Caroline Usher]

At 06:24 AM 10/10/2006, gary digman wrote:
>I think the lute died for the same reason all the soft voiced insturments
>died, i.e. the plucked keyboards (spinets, clavichords, harpsichords, etc),
>the violas da gamba, and at the same time. When the concert hall was
>invented in the early 18th century, the idea was to put as many rear ends in
>as many seats as possible. Thus the loud voiced instruments fell into favor.

But the guitar survived, and it did not become a concert-hall instrument until 
the 20th century.  There's a massive amount of chamber music from the 19th 
century.  Why couldn't the lute have continued equally with the guitar in that 
setting?

I don't know the answer but I am pretty sure that it's not lack of volume.
Caroline


Caroline Usher
DCMB Administrative Coordinator
613-8155, Room B343 LSRC
Mailing address:  Box 91000, Duke University, Durham NC 27708



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[LUTE] Re: Back to music, maybe?

[David Rastall]

On Oct 10, 2006, at 9:32 AM, Kay Lay wrote:

> Yeah, I'm new to this list and all this Sting talk is causing me to
> ignore almost every message entirely. Teach me about luteness!

Oh, I think there's a bit to be learned about luteness from reading  
those Sting discussions...  ;-)

Here's a lesson in luteness:  listen to Sting's lute songs, and then  
listen to the samples on www.mignarda.com and www.lutevoice.com

David R
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.rastallmusic.com




--

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[LUTE] Re: Back to music, maybe?

[Eugene C. Braig IV]

At 09:32 AM 10/10/2006, Kay Lay wrote:
>Yeah, I'm new to this list and all this Sting talk is causing me to
>ignore almost every message entirely. Teach me about luteness!


Feel free to ask something about luteness.  I'd bet you'll get reply.

Eugene 



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[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting

[Howard Posner]

>  Those who claim to know what is "authentic," and who see themselves
>> as the sole arbiters of taste in early music, would do well to
>> consider what happened the last time their oh-so-precious historical
>> principles were applied for real

What happened was that the lute held a dominant position in European 
music for two or three centuries.



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[LUTE] Re: Sting pool-A list and then some

[Stuart LeBlanc]

How about these numbers:

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=Lutenists+for+Sting&word2=
Lutenists+against+Sting

-Original Message-
From: Sal Salvaggio [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 10:13 PM
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Sting pool-A list and then some




These are the numbers for yahoo search results for
Dowland +__

194,000 for "dowland" Sting
16,500 for "dowland" o'dette
13,700 for "dowland" bream
10,500 for "dowland"  deller (had to include this)
1,560 for "dowland"  Hopkinson

These are the numbers for yahoo search results for
lute+__


103,000 for "Lute" + sting
39,800 for "Lute" + o'dette
39,900 for "Lute" bream
10,700 for "Lute" hopkinson

__
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com



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[LUTE] Re: Angelique (olim Another Theorbo Question)

[Mathias Rösel]

> If you say, however, angeliques are compound
> instruments, consisting of lute bodies, theorboed
> necks, and harp tunings, I should NOT dissent, that is.
-- 
Best,

Mathias
--

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[LUTE] Re: Back to music, maybe?

[Kay Lay]

Yeah, I'm new to this list and all this Sting talk is causing me to
ignore almost every message entirely. Teach me about luteness!



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[LUTE] Re: Loves Constancy

[LGS-Europe]

> There is a basic keyboard-style realization of the thoroughbass in my 
> edition, pp. 30-34.
> For a citation of the book, see:
> http://ace.acadiau.ca/score/gjc/home.htm#CallonSchol   OR
> http://www.severinus.co.uk/edittext.htm#lanier
>
> It may be in a academic library.

And in mine. Comes recommended. (Though I have some double/missing pages in 
the beginning.)

David








> In North America, it is best purchased from Broude Bros.
> Send me a self-addressed envelope with Canadian stamps, and I will mail a 
> photocopy.
>
> A basic realization also is in the edition, The Solo Song, 1580-1730, ed. 
> Carol MacClintock, pp. 146-148.
> (This edition simplifies the song by giving the second stanza only as 
> text, even though it is written out in full in the original, and is 
> slightly different from the first stanza.)
>
> Both editionas are from the printed source, Select Ayres and 
> Dialogues...The Second Book...1669.
> The printed source is the only one that provides a chaconne bass.
>
> The manuscript sources (Lbl 11608 [twice], Lbl Egerton 2013) have 
> different basses. None has tablature.
>
> Gordon J Callon
> School of Music
> Acadia University
> Wolfville
> Nova Scotia
> Canada
> B4P 2R6
>
> http://ace.acadiau.ca/score/site-map.htm
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Daniel Shoskes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Mon 10/9/2006 9:40 PM
> To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Subject: [LUTE] Loves Constancy
>
> Does anyone have a version of Lanier's Loves Constancy with a
> realized lute part or at least the figures written in? I only have
> the bass line and my feeble continuo skills are not up to the task.
>
> Thanks.
>
> DS
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
> --
> 

[LUTE] Re: Loves Constancy

[Gordon Callon]

There is a basic keyboard-style realization of the thoroughbass in my edition, 
pp. 30-34.
For a citation of the book, see:
http://ace.acadiau.ca/score/gjc/home.htm#CallonSchol   OR
http://www.severinus.co.uk/edittext.htm#lanier

It may be in a academic library. [I get no royalty, so feel free to photocopy.]
In North America, it is best purchased from Broude Bros.
Send me a self-addressed envelope with Canadian stamps, and I will mail a 
photocopy.

A basic realization also is in the edition, The Solo Song, 1580-1730, ed. Carol 
MacClintock, pp. 146-148.
(This edition simplifies the song by giving the second stanza only as text, 
even though it is written out in full in the original, and is slightly 
different from the first stanza.)

Both editionas are from the printed source, Select Ayres and Dialogues...The 
Second Book...1669.
The printed source is the only one that provides a chaconne bass.

The manuscript sources (Lbl 11608 [twice], Lbl Egerton 2013) have different 
basses. None has tablature.

Gordon J Callon
School of Music
Acadia University
Wolfville
Nova Scotia
Canada
B4P 2R6

http://ace.acadiau.ca/score/site-map.htm



-Original Message-
From: Daniel Shoskes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Mon 10/9/2006 9:40 PM
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Loves Constancy
 
Does anyone have a version of Lanier's Loves Constancy with a  
realized lute part or at least the figures written in? I only have  
the bass line and my feeble continuo skills are not up to the task.

Thanks.

DS



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--

[LUTE] Re: Back to music, maybe?

[Rob Dorsey]

Luca,

To paraphrase the late and malevolently great Darth Vader "Luke, never
underestimate the dork side of the force."

I reckon many on the list are actually closet rockers and Sting let them
down.


Best,
Rob Dorsey
http://RobDorsey.com

-Original Message-
From: Luca Manassero [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 8:37 AM
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Back to music, maybe?


   Dear all,
   while is surely interesting to see how much passion can be poured in such
an
   irrelevant (for us) marketing issue, do you see any chance to get back to
   music discussions or is this list going to be talking about Sting ONLY
   forever?
   ;-)
   Luca


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[LUTE] Back to music, maybe?

[Luca Manassero]

   Dear all,
   while is surely interesting to see how much passion can be poured in such an
   irrelevant (for us) marketing issue, do you see any chance to get back to
   music discussions or is this list going to be talking about Sting ONLY
   forever?
   ;-)
   Luca


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[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting

[Phalese]

In einer eMail vom 10.10.2006 13:40:02 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]: 

> Actually I already suggested to my Duo-Partner to start an action "A 
> tribute to Sting" for lutenists and to perform hits by Police and Sting on 
> Lute(s). 
> 
> I would offer to collect all contributions :) 
> 
> Best wishes
> Thomas

Sorry not interested in this repertoire is too old fashioned :)

Mark


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[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting

[lautenist]

Actually I already suggested to my Duo-Partner to start an action "A tribute to 
Sting" for lutenists and to perform hits by Police and Sting on Lute(s). 
I would offer to collect all contributions :) 

Best wishes
Thomas

>> Yesterday Sting was neither off tune nor out of tempo.
>> RT
>Pheewww! What a relief.
>
>I've decided: I'll remove all my octaves, and double strings, and gut
>strings. I'll get an archlute and will try the pop lutenist career. Perhaps
>Mark and me could found a new group named "The HIP Police" and the
>repertoire will be Sting music arranged for two archlutes. RT, if you are
>clever we might even allow you to play the bass line on your own axe ;^)))
>
>Francesco
>
>
>
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[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting

[gary digman]

- Original Message - 
From: "David Rastall"

:> Those who claim to know what is "authentic," and who see themselves
> as the sole arbiters of taste in early music, would do well to
> consider what happened the last time their oh-so-precious historical
> principles were applied for real, back in the days when they weren't
> history, when the "old ones" were still the current ones:  the lute
> died.  We don't want it to die again.


I think the lute died for the same reason all the soft voiced insturments
died, i.e. the plucked keyboards (spinets, clavichords, harpsichords, etc),
the violas da gamba, and at the same time. When the concert hall was
invented in the early 18th century, the idea was to put as many rear ends in
as many seats as possible. Thus the loud voiced instruments fell into favor.
I'm not sure I know what these "oh-so-precious historical principles" are
that killed the lute.

Gary



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[LUTE] Re: Terzi and hip

[Phalese]

In einer eMail vom 10.10.2006 11:25:27 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]: 

> No hip-police out there with a comment on this?
> 

I hope I don't get thrown out of the force :)

Sounds good, pity Sting didn't give either of you a ring.

Sorry to dissapoint, but what my ears finds so distressing is the romantic 
rubato at all the difficult parts and bad ensemble playing on Mr. Stings CD. If 
he uses a single string Les Paul that is his choice. 
Just don't say it is an historical lute.

I would do some shameful promotion of my new CD, but it seems to be doing 
quite well on it's own, it went stright to the top of the magnatune charts and 
so 
far using the same method as Roman it seems we have sold just over 1/300th of 
what Sting has sold here in Germany, but we have less than a 1/300th of the 
promotion. But our reviews are a bit more positive than Sting's:)

Mark



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[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting

[Roman Turovsky]

Yesterday Sting was neither off tune nor out of tempo.
RT

- Original Message - 
From: "Francesco Tribioli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 5:54 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting


>> ...To sing out of tune or out of tempo is wrong, HIP or
>> not HIP.
>>
>>
>> To play outside an accepted temperament is wrong?, or to use
> One thing is to use a different temperament, one thing is to be out of 
> tune
> in the chosen temperament. Something like a "temperament inegal" was never
> invented 8^))
>
>> "notes inegal" at your own personal discretion is wrong?
>> Maybe, maybe not.
> "Notes inegal" doesn't absolutely mean out of tempo. All the contrary, 
> they
> reinforce the beat and give more impulse to the rhythm if compared with
> equal notes.
>
>> music is. I'm not sure this will be a good service to
>> the lute world and
>> that the curiosity it will spin in some of the
>> listeners will be prevalent.
>>
>>
>> Well, okay, I've purposely avoided giving my opinion of
>> Sting's Dowland, because I feel that it's not relevant to
>> these discussions.  Regarding "distorted ideas," can you say
>> for sure that the Elizabethans had the same ideas on vocal
>> technique, lute technique or instrumentation as we do?  Maybe
> Let me reverse the question. Do you think that Elizabethan professional
> singers, which were paid very very much only to sing and play music, would
> be so imprecise and lazy?
>
>> they did sound just like our CD heroines and heroes of today,
>> and maybe they didn't.  It's an open question.  Always will be.
> Sure, but there are, in my opinion, some limits. Actually we know 
> something
> about the way they played and sang even if of course no one was there. We
> have original instruments and we have a good guess about the stringing, we
> have treatises about vocality, for example Caccini, which give many hints
> about interpretation. Some things work only with a particular kind of
> vocality and with a good enough preparation. I don't believe that Sting 
> has
> the necessary vocal ability to do for example a trillo as Caccini 
> suggests.
> Yes, Caccini is Italian and we are talking of England, but musicians
> travelled and technical novelty and fashions with them and as I said the
> courtly singers were highly trained musicians. Said this, perhaps in some
> English country manor there might surely have been some man that may have
> sang as Sting sings. Perhaps he was considered a bad singer as well I 
> think
> we should consider Sting in this recording (I really love the other Sting
> music by the way). If we don't admit there are these (quite broad) limits,
> we could play the galute as I said. All in all could you exclude that some
> maker in the Renaissance ever built a galute like instrument? Perhaps
> someone has played something of similar and so, if we do now, we can claim
> to be HIP. Everything would be fine and could be sold as the true and 
> right
> way to perform ancient music. I've written "distorted ideas" because Sting
> said that his particular way to sing and play this music, which is 
> actually
> quite bad under many musical respects and also quite different from what 
> we
> know of historical performance, is the real and right way to do it.
>
> All the best
>
> Francesco
>
>
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
> 




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[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting

[gary digman]

Now, thanks to Sting, lutenists know how jazz musicians have felt for
years.After the Modern Jazz Quartet retired, Milt Jackson was interviewed,
and during the interview he complained, "We worked for twenty years and made
what a kid who's played guitar for a month and knows six chords makes in a
night." Later during an interview John Lewis was asked about Milt Jackson's
remark. He said, "I thought we made a good living. That's show business.
We're musicians, not show people."

Sting is show business.

Gary

- Original Message - 
From: "Francesco Tribioli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 2:03 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting


> > I have if on good authority that the Labyrinth sales in
> > Germany have already exceeded 30.
> > RT
> There is an incredible amount of advertising of this CD here in Italy too.
> Every morning after the radio news there is an extract of Come again sang
by
> Sting with the advise of buying the CD "in the best CD shops".
> This is an interesting phenomenon: actually the quality of the music
> and the quality of the performance are absolutely unimportant. No one
knows
> who is Dowland, no one knows what a good performance of this music is but
> the name of pop star is enough to sell a piece of junk (IMHO) as this CD
> like the bread. It is considered a musical event, while CDs recorded by
> specialized lutenists and singers pass completely ignored! There is
> something wrong in all this... Nowadays what sells is the name not the
> music.
>
> Francesco
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
>
> -- 
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> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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>

[LUTE] Re: Terzi and hip

[bill kilpatrick]

excellent - that's you and bill wyman, right? 





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[LUTE] Re: Terzi and hip

[LGS-Europe]

> I am also not a judge to stand over them, he can do what he pleases, I am
> more interested in the reaction of players and listeners to this whole 
> thing as a
> way of seeing where lute playing is at the moment. The CD disqualifies 
> itself
> at least to my ears through musical and not authentic weaknesses.

A feeble attempt by me to divert the attention from Sting (good luck to him 
and thanks for bringing the lute and Dowland to the attention of many people 
and for bringing a lively discussion to our list) to my new Terzi duet cd.

One of us plays with nails on carbon and overspunns the other (guess who?) 
with fingers on gut. No hip-police out there with a comment on this?
Listen to it on http://www.turtlerecords.com/audio/28-t01.html
More on www.davidvanooijen.nl

David - still trying



David van Ooijen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.davidvanooijen.nl

 




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[LUTE] Re: Karamazov and Sting

[Phalese]

In einer eMail vom 10.10.2006 05:17:11 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]: 

> have just come home from the Karamazov/Sting gig here in NYC, and it was 
> EXCELLENT. Karamazov on 3 DOUBLESTRUNG archlutes and an 8course, and Sting 
> on a singlestrung archlute

Live does sound much better and quite diferant to the CD. I also know that he 
"now" uses double strung instruments live, but I am still not convinced about 
the CD.

I am also not a judge to stand over them, he can do what he pleases, I am 
more interested in the reaction of players and listeners to this whole thing as 
a 
way of seeing where lute playing is at the moment. The CD disqualifies itself 
at least to my ears through musical and not authentic weaknesses. 

I think in the end the big "Lute Boom" will not come about through this CD, 
because in the end the lute doesn't sound anything like a lute on the CD. I 
hope I am wrong but I think the sting CD is a bit like all the other cross-over 
projects that haven't helped classical music so far. The question is are these 
projects doors to allow people to explore classical music or just and easy 
listening alternative. I think the end most classical CD departments at least 
here in Germany are a good indication of where we are going, take away all the 
crossover artists and you are left with a few CD's most of which are budget 
price old recordings. 10 years ago you might have found POD or Nigel North now 
the 
chances are very rare. For the non-specialist who doesn't scour the internet 
or search for the small shop the Sting CD will be the "referance point" of 
lute playing. 

This is not stings or Edin's fault and in the end this discussion is not 
about what they should do, but to look at what we are doing.
The sort of mass media promotion behind the Sting CD is impossible for any 
lute player including all of our personal "A lists together. 

I think the next interesting thing to see is the reaction of other record 
companies when the CD charts very high (which I am sure it will). Normally you 
should expect other companies to bring a best of Dowland CD on the market.

The whole thing is so interesting and there is much to learn in the way the 
media recieves this CD.

Mark

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[LUTE] Re: The last word goes to Sting

[Phalese]

In einer eMail vom 10.10.2006 03:26:33 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]: 

> Not much HIP there, but it sure was hip.
> 
> Eugene
> 

I agree I have the box set with the "King Henry's Madrigal."
Probably a Jethro Tull plays Dowland, without  absolutely any attempt at 
being authentic would be better listening than Sting half-baked approach and in 
the end get more people  interested in the music.

Mark

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