Re: OFFTOPIC Re: [Mailman-Users] Archive URL in postings (2.1b3)
On Thu, 31 Oct 2002 10:35:01 -0600 John Buttery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > * J C Lawrence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2002-10-29 19:51:03 -0800]: >> John Buttery <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Thinking that the address in the To: field is an address that the > sender originally targeted directly may not be universal, but I think > it's pretty close. *shrug* I find that most people (unofficial survey, extensive conversations, total population probably >30, <100) pay that much attention to the headers on list-related posts, and when they do, more or less consider all the addresses in the headers to be the "intended destination" without distinguishing which header is which. Private email is a >little< different in that people do seem to start to distinguish among the headers, but not a whole lot. >> One has a List-ID header, one doesn't. >> >> One has an In-Reply-To that references my prior post, one doesn't. > You're right about this, I hadn't fully thought things out before I > said that. However, it doesn't solve the problem of not knowing > whether one of these list postings is the first of two duplicates, or > just a normal posting. Err, the one without the List-ID is the direct mail and the one with is the one via the list. > Someone just posted something about the In-Reply-To: header that may > or may not refute that part, but it's moot because your point stands > on the List-ID: header alone. > True, and I take that statement back for the same reasons as above. > :p And, of course, I was not encouraging people to post private emails > on-list, which is a MASSIVE etiquette breach...I was just trying to > point out a situation in which "information loss" would happen. No worries. Part of the background logic on all this is that the To: and Cc: headers are actually meaningless. Sure, most people don't know that, but I would expect that the members of this list are very comfortable with the fact that the To: and Cc: headers need have absolutely no relation to the original or current message envelope. As such they start out being weak suggestions, not statements. If you really want to know, and you trust the Received: headers (which are themselves not totally trustworthy, but that's another matter) look for destination envelope comments in the Received: headers. Received: from mail.python.org ([12.155.117.29]) by kanga.nu with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 187IQu-0005ed-00 for <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Thu, 31 Oct 2002 08:44:36 -0800 -- J C Lawrence -(*)Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas. [EMAIL PROTECTED] He lived as a devil, eh? http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ This message was sent to: archive@jab.org Unsubscribe or change your options at http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: OFFTOPIC Re: [Mailman-Users] Archive URL in postings (2.1b3)
On Wed, 30 Oct 2002 08:05:32 -0800 (PST) alex wetmore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Tue, 29 Oct 2002, J C Lawrence wrote: >> On Tue, 29 Oct 2002 10:56:39 -0800 (PST) alex wetmore >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> 1) You are using an email system which removes duplicates (based on >>> the Message-Id header). Microsoft Exchange 2000 is one such system. >>> If Mailman is changing the headers so much perhaps it should stick a >>> new Message-Id on the message though. >> We should start out admitting that such mail systems are broken and >> then decide how far we want to cater to such broken systems. > Eliminating duplicates is a useful feature, not a broken one. My original statement was more generous than I intended. Corrected: MTAs which do duplicate suppression are broken. That's the function of the MUA, or, in very constrained instances, the LDA. > Think about the hacks that Mailman-2.1 has to prevent sending the > duplicate. Yup. I'm not fond of their existence. > In a complex corporate topology there are reasons why duplicates are > sometimes generated, but clients should have no reason to see them. Then they configure their MUAs not to. > Exchange is not the only system that does this, but it might be the > widest deployed. FWLIW Cyrus can do dupe suppression at the LDA level. Sadly its a global setting. >> There are multiple ways to achieve this. Parsing To: is one of the >> more fragile ways. Far more effective and near-guaranteed to be >> correct (except for the standard broken software case as above) is >> tracking In-Reply-To: from your original post(s). > That depends on keeping a database of sent message-ids and comparing > In-Reply-To against each of them. Few clients support this. Ignoring the closed source or otherwise opaque cases (ie no LDA/MDA control): tracking In-Reply-To: headers is neither complex or expensive. I do it here and have done for years. Counting the opaque and transparent cases: Partially true. Most MUAs will happily thread under your original message. Note to self: Must investigate doing this sort of thing under Sieve. I'm fairly sure it's not possible (need to escape the Sieve sandbox for localFS access). > If you can recommend a decent text-based IMAP client that runs on Unix > and Win32 and which supports this functionality I'm all ears. Sorry, I don't track the Windows state of affairs. Its been 12 years since I used windows anything more than trivially and I've no interest in changing that. -- J C Lawrence -(*)Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas. [EMAIL PROTECTED] He lived as a devil, eh? http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ This message was sent to: archive@jab.org Unsubscribe or change your options at http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: OFFTOPIC Re: [Mailman-Users] Archive URL in postings (2.1b3)
Oops ... sorry for my stupid rant :-) It seems that the new mailman now creates individual "To:" headers. I'm not sure if I like this since I cannot tell whether the recipient wanted to send the mail really to me and only cc the list (so he might expect a personal answer from myself), or if it's just a regular list mail. But this is definitely not the fault of Brian or somebody else ... Cheerio, Michael -- = Michael Radziej SuSE Linux AG phone +49-911-74053-646 Internal IT Deutschherrenstr. 15-19fax +49-911-3206727 (vormals interne EDV) 90429 Nürnberg, Germanyweb http://www.suse.de = Ich geb's zu, es ist manchmal alptraumartig. cg am 24.10.2002 über perl -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%%40python.org/
