Re: MD: Unlimited SCMS from SBLive!?
Yeah, but what if the soundcard has not been programmed to send the data correctly, it could just be sending NULLs to the unit, which it then defaults to UNLIMITED, this could explain why the track index marks are not sent either Keith - Senior Development Programmer < Putting propeller-headed beany cap away! Email : mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] SMS : mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Work : 01689 835 353 Fax : 01689 838 323 Mobile: 07879 427 867 ICQ : 32923233 - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Unlimited SCMS from SBLive!?
=== = NB: Over 50% of this message is QUOTED, please = = be more selective when quoting text = === The professional kind like what's listed on minidisc.org At 08:33 PM 2/6/00 -0500, you wrote: > >Brent Harding wrote: > >> === >> = NB: Over 50% of this message is QUOTED, please = >> = be more selective when quoting text = >> === >> >> how does that work, if you spend 3 or 4 hundred bucks on one of those good >> ones that's usable for radio applications, maybe then scms is defeatable. >> At 03:07 AM 2/6/00 -0500, you wrote: >> > > >Brent, I'm confused. When you say "one of those good ones", what specifically >are you referring to? > >Larry > >- >To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word >"unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Brent Harding Watch ads for over $20 per hour! Visit this site to join ad vision! http://www.bepaid.com/users.rhtml?REFID=10160429 - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Unlimited SCMS from SBLive!?
Brent Harding wrote: > How does that work, if you spend 3 or 4 hundred bucks on one of those good > ones that's usable for radio applications, maybe then scms is defeatable. I think the professional machines (Denon I believe) cost about a grand or more. http://www.minidisc.org/part_Denon_DMD-1500.html > -- Jim Coon Not just another pretty mandolin picker. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] If Gibson made cars, would they sound so sweet? My first web page http://www.tir.com/~liteways - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Unlimited SCMS from SBLive!?
John Graham wrote: > OK, so my hard disc analogue recordings .wav files contain no SCMS > information. Is it not surprising though that my soundcard drivers output > these files over the optical out with SCMS set to unlimited? I'd have > expected it to send something like "SCMS-unknown" so that the MD would then > generate an "SCMS-penultimate" recording, instead of sending "SCMS-unlimited". I don't think that is a valid status for the SCMS bits. They are recorded and can be turned on and off in varioous combinations, to allow unlimited copies, one copy, or no dopies. I don't think "unknown" is one of the choices. -- Jim Coon Not just another pretty mandolin picker. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] If Gibson made cars, would they sound so sweet? My first web page http://www.tir.com/~liteways - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Unlimited SCMS from SBLive!?
Brent Harding wrote: > === > = NB: Over 50% of this message is QUOTED, please = > = be more selective when quoting text = > === > > how does that work, if you spend 3 or 4 hundred bucks on one of those good > ones that's usable for radio applications, maybe then scms is defeatable. > At 03:07 AM 2/6/00 -0500, you wrote: > > Brent, I'm confused. When you say "one of those good ones", what specifically are you referring to? Larry - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Unlimited SCMS from SBLive!?
=== = NB: Over 50% of this message is QUOTED, please = = be more selective when quoting text = === how does that work, if you spend 3 or 4 hundred bucks on one of those good ones that's usable for radio applications, maybe then scms is defeatable. At 03:07 AM 2/6/00 -0500, you wrote: > >LAS wrote: > >> "J. Coon" wrote: >> > If you made a recording to MD with microphones, it is an analog recording, and >> > it will allow a digital copy to be made from it. However, if you make a digital >> > copy of the MD to another MD, the SCMS bits will be set to not allow another >> > digital copy to be made. >> > >> >> That's absolutely correct, Jim. And it is wrong that you should not be able to make >> a digital copy of a copy of your own music. Suppose you decided to record some >> sessions that you band made. You should not be limited by SCMS. > >Yep, I agree and I ran into the very same problem. The way the law is written, really >sucks. > >> But the question that I have is this. Since ATRAC is a lossy technique, would you >> start to notice the degradation in sound quality on the first copy (second >> generation) MD? Or would it go undetected to the human ear for several copies of >> copies?? > >I have a recording that I think is about 5th genereation. It is on a sample MD the I >gor from a list memeber some time ago. He recorder various test signals on it and made >several generations of copies. It was hard to tell the difference from one copy to the >next until you got past 5 generations, as I recall. I think the MD is still >available. It was mentioned on the MD comunity page. > >> >> >> Because I do not have an MD recorder that is capable of defeating SCMS there is no >> way that I can test this theory myself. >> >> Has anyone ever experimented with this?? I know that Eric W. has a recorder that >> can bypass SCMS. >> >> Regards, >> Larry >> >> - >> To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word >> "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >-- >Jim Coon >Not just another pretty mandolin picker. >mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >If Gibson made cars, would they sound so sweet? > >My first web page > >http://www.tir.com/~liteways > > >- >To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word >"unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Brent Harding Watch ads for over $20 per hour! Visit this site to join ad vision! http://www.bepaid.com/users.rhtml?REFID=10160429 - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Unlimited SCMS from SBLive!?
David: > >G> If I make an analogue recording to my hard disk it has no SCMS bits set, >G> or is classed as 'unlimited digital copy'. > >Er, no. Depending on your ripping software, usually it will be stored, >regardless of whether the connection from your MD player to your hard disk >was analog or digital, in some format that has no SCMS information at all, >like .wav or .mp3. If later your soundcard generates S/PDIF output from it >to record to CDR or MD, the soundcard will have to think of some way to set >the SCMS bits in the outgoing S/PDIF stream. OK, so my hard disc analogue recordings .wav files contain no SCMS information. Is it not surprising though that my soundcard drivers output these files over the optical out with SCMS set to unlimited? I'd have expected it to send something like "SCMS-unknown" so that the MD would then generate an "SCMS-penultimate" recording, instead of sending "SCMS-unlimited". John - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Unlimited SCMS from SBLive!?
LAS wrote: > "J. Coon" wrote: > > If you made a recording to MD with microphones, it is an analog recording, and > > it will allow a digital copy to be made from it. However, if you make a digital > > copy of the MD to another MD, the SCMS bits will be set to not allow another > > digital copy to be made. > > > > That's absolutely correct, Jim. And it is wrong that you should not be able to make > a digital copy of a copy of your own music. Suppose you decided to record some > sessions that you band made. You should not be limited by SCMS. Yep, I agree and I ran into the very same problem. The way the law is written, really sucks. > But the question that I have is this. Since ATRAC is a lossy technique, would you > start to notice the degradation in sound quality on the first copy (second > generation) MD? Or would it go undetected to the human ear for several copies of > copies?? I have a recording that I think is about 5th genereation. It is on a sample MD the I gor from a list memeber some time ago. He recorder various test signals on it and made several generations of copies. It was hard to tell the difference from one copy to the next until you got past 5 generations, as I recall. I think the MD is still available. It was mentioned on the MD comunity page. > > > Because I do not have an MD recorder that is capable of defeating SCMS there is no > way that I can test this theory myself. > > Has anyone ever experimented with this?? I know that Eric W. has a recorder that > can bypass SCMS. > > Regards, > Larry > > - > To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word > "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Jim Coon Not just another pretty mandolin picker. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] If Gibson made cars, would they sound so sweet? My first web page http://www.tir.com/~liteways - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Unlimited SCMS from SBLive!?
Larry Sherry wrote, S> If I remember correctly it is the MD recorder that adds the SCMS. No. An S/PDIF signal has SCMS bits in it. Whatever generates the signal generates those bits. The recorder decides what to do about them. John Graham wrote, G> OK, I think I understand better now. G> If I make an analogue recording to my hard disk it has no SCMS bits set, G> or is classed as 'unlimited digital copy'. Er, no. Depending on your ripping software, usually it will be stored, regardless of whether the connection from your MD player to your hard disk was analog or digital, in some format that has no SCMS information at all, like .wav or .mp3. If later your soundcard generates S/PDIF output from it to record to CDR or MD, the soundcard will have to think of some way to set the SCMS bits in the outgoing S/PDIF stream. G> If I make the same analogue recording to my MD the SCMS bit is set to G> 'digital copy once'. Yes. An analog signal converted by the MD recorder's own ADC will be recorded as SCMS-penultimate. G> What surprised me was that the 'unlimited digital copy' from was G> preserved when subsequently copying between MDs. That's why we call it that. If it weren't preserved, it wouldn't be unlimited. G> Why shouldn't someone be allowed to make multiple digital copies of their G> own analogue sourced material? Unfortunately, the machinery has no way to tell who holds the copyright on the material. Analog input can also be used for other people's works. G> What's missing of course is a genuine MD to MD copy, faster than realtime G> with track and/or disk name data sent. There are units that do that. Back to Larry: S> Yes it is true that the computer does not set SCMS. Correct. The soundcard does when it generates an S/PDIF signal to send to the MD or CDR recorder. S> But I'm still pretty sure that it is the recorder and not the source that S> encodes the signal. No, the soundcard does, or if you're going straight between two audio units without using a computer, the source unit does. If it doesn't encode a signal, then what the heck is passing between the two units? S> So in the case of a CD writer, there will be no problem with SCMS. Yes, there will, if the signal's SCMS bits are set to `final' and the CD writer complies with SCMS. S> But the consumer MD recorders are all designed to add SCMS. Consumer MD recorders are designed to comply with SCMS. The only time they "add" it is when the internal ADC receives analog input and converts it to digital for recording on the MD; it lays it down as SCMS-penultimate data. S> Think about it. I did. You did too, but you went about it inside out. S> If the source encoded the SCMS, you would not be able to make a digital S> copy in the first place. But you can make one original. Sorry, Larry, but you're wrong there too. The source does encode SCMS bits, but it sets them to allow one generation of digital recording. S> That's because the SCMS is added as the first MD is being "burned". No, it's because the recorder sees incoming SCMS bits that are set to penul- timate, so it lays down an SCMS-final track. When that track is played, it generates an SCMS-final digital signal, which consumer-grade recorders will not copy. If the recorder did it all, and the information were not there in the signal, how could the recorder tell when the signal was coming from a premastered MD, or an MD track recorded from an analog signal, and know to lay down an SCMS-final recording, or when the signal was coming from an MD track recorded from a digital source and know not to copy? How could it know when to mark the copy for unlimited recopying, if the information is not already there in the source? S> But the question that I have is this. Since ATRAC is a lossy technique, S> would you start to notice the degradation in sound quality on the first S> copy (second generation) MD? Or would it go undetected to the human ear S> for several copies of copies?? If you re-ATRAC an already ATRACked recording, most of what is lost in the second compression is what was extrapolated during the decompression, so successive ATRACkings have even less effect than the first. S> Has anyone ever experimented with this?? I know that Eric W. has a S> recorder that can bypass SCMS. I once took some SCMS-unlimited material and copied it by digital transfer out to the thirteenth generation. I could not tell the difference between the thirteenth and the first. Some people have said that it takes twenty generations before a difference is apparent. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: MD: Unlimited SCMS from SBLive!?
Then the only thing I can figure is that Yamaha has implemented SCMS backwards. I was able to copy a pre-recorded MD with no problem, but not my original material. -- Martin -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of J. Coon Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2000 11:46 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: MD: Unlimited SCMS from SBLive!? Martin Schiff wrote: > Larry, > > I believe you are correct, because this problem just bit me in the butt. I > made original recordings to MD with microphones, and when I try to transfer > them to the computer using a Hoontech soundcard with Yamaha drivers (which > implement SCMS) it will not copy. If you made a recording to MD with microphones, it is an analog recording, and it will allow a digital copy to be made from it. However, if you make a digital copy of the MD to another MD, the SCMS bits will be set to not allow another digital copy to be made. -- Jim Coon Not just another pretty mandolin picker. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] If Gibson made cars, would they sound so sweet? My first web page http://www.tir.com/~liteways - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Unlimited SCMS from SBLive!?
"J. Coon" wrote: > > > If you made a recording to MD with microphones, it is an analog recording, and > it will allow a digital copy to be made from it. However, if you make a digital > copy of the MD to another MD, the SCMS bits will be set to not allow another > digital copy to be made. > That's absolutely correct, Jim. And it is wrong that you should not be able to make a digital copy of a copy of your own music. Suppose you decided to record some sessions that you band made. You should not be limited by SCMS. But the question that I have is this. Since ATRAC is a lossy technique, would you start to notice the degradation in sound quality on the first copy (second generation) MD? Or would it go undetected to the human ear for several copies of copies?? Because I do not have an MD recorder that is capable of defeating SCMS there is no way that I can test this theory myself. Has anyone ever experimented with this?? I know that Eric W. has a recorder that can bypass SCMS. Regards, Larry - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Unlimited SCMS from SBLive!?
Martin Schiff wrote: > Larry, > > I believe you are correct, because this problem just bit me in the butt. I > made original recordings to MD with microphones, and when I try to transfer > them to the computer using a Hoontech soundcard with Yamaha drivers (which > implement SCMS) it will not copy. If you made a recording to MD with microphones, it is an analog recording, and it will allow a digital copy to be made from it. However, if you make a digital copy of the MD to another MD, the SCMS bits will be set to not allow another digital copy to be made. -- Jim Coon Not just another pretty mandolin picker. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] If Gibson made cars, would they sound so sweet? My first web page http://www.tir.com/~liteways - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: MD: Unlimited SCMS from SBLive!?
Larry, I believe you are correct, because this problem just bit me in the butt. I made original recordings to MD with microphones, and when I try to transfer them to the computer using a Hoontech soundcard with Yamaha drivers (which implement SCMS) it will not copy. Interestingly enough, if I try to copy a commercial MD I bought, it works fine, so it apparently is not marked as SCMS final. The original driver for the Hoontech card did not have SCMS, but I was having problems and updated it. The new driver will not copy original analog material that I recorded. Guess I have to go back to the old drivers and live with the (minor) problem. Bummer. -- Martin -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of LAS Sent: Friday, February 04, 2000 11:19 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: MD: Unlimited SCMS from SBLive!? "J. Coon" wrote: > LAS wrote: > > > Hi. If I remember correctly it is the MD recorder that adds the SCMS. If > > that is correct, then either you have a one of a kind recorder or the copy is > > not true digital. > > It is my understanding that computers aren't required to set the SCMS bits. > They aren't cover under the law. > Hi Jim. You probably don't remember me I've been off the list for some time. Yes it is true that the computer does not set SCMS. But I'm still pretty sure that it is the recorder and not the source that encodes the signal. So in the case of a CD writer, there will be no problem with SCMS. But the consumer MD recorders are all designed to add SCMS. So it should be impossible to make a digital copy of a digital copy of an MD. Think about it. If the source encoded the SCMS, you would not be able to make a digital copy in the first place. But you can make one original. That's because the SCMS is added as the first MD is being "burned". Bye, Larry - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Unlimited SCMS from SBLive!?
=== = NB: Over 50% of this message is QUOTED, please = = be more selective when quoting text = === But suppose, I do a digital copy of a CD, I can keep using that master to copy more CD's, can't I? At 11:19 AM 2/4/00 -0500, you wrote: > >"J. Coon" wrote: > >> LAS wrote: >> >> > Hi. If I remember correctly it is the MD recorder that adds the SCMS. If >> > that is correct, then either you have a one of a kind recorder or the copy is >> > not true digital. >> >> It is my understanding that computers aren't required to set the SCMS bits. >> They aren't cover under the law. >> > >Hi Jim. You probably don't remember me I've been off the list for some time. > >Yes it is true that the computer does not set SCMS. But I'm still pretty sure that >it is the recorder and not the source that encodes the signal. So in the case of a >CD writer, there will be no problem with SCMS. But the consumer MD recorders are >all designed to add SCMS. So it should be impossible to make a digital copy of a >digital copy of an MD. > >Think about it. If the source encoded the SCMS, you would not be able to make a >digital copy in the first place. But you can make one original. That's because >the SCMS is added as the first MD is being "burned". > >Bye, >Larry > >- >To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word >"unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Brent Harding Watch ads for over $20 per hour! Visit this site to join ad vision! http://www.bepaid.com/users.rhtml?REFID=10160429 - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Unlimited SCMS from SBLive!?
"J. Coon" wrote: > LAS wrote: > > > Hi. If I remember correctly it is the MD recorder that adds the SCMS. If > > that is correct, then either you have a one of a kind recorder or the copy is > > not true digital. > > It is my understanding that computers aren't required to set the SCMS bits. > They aren't cover under the law. > Hi Jim. You probably don't remember me I've been off the list for some time. Yes it is true that the computer does not set SCMS. But I'm still pretty sure that it is the recorder and not the source that encodes the signal. So in the case of a CD writer, there will be no problem with SCMS. But the consumer MD recorders are all designed to add SCMS. So it should be impossible to make a digital copy of a digital copy of an MD. Think about it. If the source encoded the SCMS, you would not be able to make a digital copy in the first place. But you can make one original. That's because the SCMS is added as the first MD is being "burned". Bye, Larry - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Unlimited SCMS from SBLive!?
David: >| I had understood that making a recording from a digital source would >| *always* set the SCMS copy status, thereafter allowing only one digital >| copy. This seems to break that rule. > >That wasn't the rule. Yes, recording will always set the SCMS bits, but it >won't necessarily set them to limit the generations. A digital transfer to >an SCMS-compliant device of SCMS-unlimited material should produce an SCMS- >unlimited copy. There will still be generational loss from ATRAC, but that's >all. OK, I think I understand better now. a) If I make an analogue recording to my hard disk it has no SCMS bits set, or is classed as 'unlimited digital copy'. b) If I make the same analogue recording to my MD the SCMS bit is set to 'digital copy once'. What surprised me was that the 'unlimited digital copy' from a) was preserved when subsequently copying between MDs. The SBLive seems to be "SCMS-compliant" and does apply SCMS to recordings, if I make a digital recording from CD to hard disk I can copy the resulting wav file to MD but subsequently copying from that MD gives 'NO COPY', so it is acting in the same way as the MD. It differs from the MD in that it establishes 'unlimited digital copy' for analogue recordings. In my view the SBLive! is doing it correctly and the MD is not. Why shouldn't someone be allowed to make multiple digital copies of their own analogue sourced material? I have to confess to some naivety here, I hadn't appreciated the generational loss digital to digital MD copy. In my head I imagined that the MD knew it was another MD sending data and just copied the data, then I thought about it some more. Doh! What's missing of course is a genuine MD to MD copy, faster than realtime with track and/or disk name data sent. LAS: >I still don't see the point in wanting to make a digital copy of an MD that >was, say, digitally copied from a CD. Don't forget every time that you make a >copy it goes through a compression/expansion cycle. > I wasn't talking of copying digitally sourced material (CDs), just analogue stuff recorded off the radio straight onto hard disk. Cheers, John - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Unlimited SCMS from SBLive!?
LAS wrote: > Hi. If I remember correctly it is the MD recorder that adds the SCMS. If > that is correct, then either you have a one of a kind recorder or the copy is > not true digital. It is my understanding that computers aren't required to set the SCMS bits. They aren't cover under the law. -- Jim Coon Not just another pretty mandolin picker. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] If Gibson made cars, would they sound so sweet? My first web page http://www.tir.com/~liteways - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Unlimited SCMS from SBLive!?
John Graham asked, | I've read sometime that the SCMS bit can be set to 'COPY UNLIMITED', could | it be that the SBLive! is setting this condition? It could. Computer peripherals are not covered by SCMS (likewise the immunity from suit for non-commercial copying under the AHRA does not extend to copying through computer peripherals). | I had understood that making a recording from a digital source would | *always* set the SCMS copy status, thereafter allowing only one digital | copy. This seems to break that rule. That wasn't the rule. Yes, recording will always set the SCMS bits, but it won't necessarily set them to limit the generations. A digital transfer to an SCMS-compliant device of SCMS-unlimited material should produce an SCMS- unlimited copy. There will still be generational loss from ATRAC, but that's all. - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MD: Unlimited SCMS from SBLive!?
Hi. If I remember correctly it is the MD recorder that adds the SCMS. If that is correct, then either you have a one of a kind recorder or the copy is not true digital. That's about all I can think of. I still don't see the point in wanting to make a digital copy of an MD that was, say, digitally copied from a CD. Don't forget every time that you make a copy it goes through a compression/expansion cycle. You can make an exact clone of a CD using a CD burner. That's because there is no compression. If the discs are of high enough quality and you are using a high quality CD writer, you should be able to make and copy of a copy of a copy, and so on. Each having the same quality as the original. Because of ATRAC this can never be the case with MDs. That's one reason that an MD recorder is not the best source to use if you are recording live music and plan on making many copies from the original. LAS John Graham wrote: > Here's a weird one. I make hard disk recordings off the radio (using > LOOPREC) and then digital copy tracks to my MZ-R55 using the optical lead. > A digital recording I's sure, at least 'DIGITAL' appears in the window in > the MD during the copy. > > I'm then able to take that disk to my other MD deck and make ANOTHER > digital copy of the track back to the MZ-R55 again, again over an optical > lead. In fact I can do this over and over again. > > I've read sometime that the SCMS bit can be set to 'COPY UNLIMITED', could > it be that the SBLive! is setting this condition? > > I tried it with other sound files, like the windows close .wav file, again > I can digitally copy it between MD machines over and over. > > I checked all other modes of recording and SCMS seems to work as expected. > > I had understood that making a recording from a digital source would > *always* set the SCMS copy status, thereafter allowing only one digital > copy. This seems to break that rule. > > Any thoughts? > > John > > - > To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word > "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To stop getting this list send a message containing just the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
