Re: MD: what is an SACD?

[Don Capps]

From: "Bob Willcox" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> No, DSD does not use PCM encoded.  Its a single bit encoding at 2.8224
MHz.  Consequently it doesn't have a "word" length.  It can, though, be
easily converted into any of the common PCM formats.

Bob, my faux pas in that regard has been loong ago corrected. In fact,
this post is at least a couple of weeks old. It's just Yahoo Groups actin'
screwy (so what else it new).

Don C.

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Re: MD: what is an SACD?

[Francisco J. Huerta]

Weird. I sent this message more than two weeks ago...

But you are right about the sampling frequency.

Francisco.

- Original Message - 
From: "Bob Willcox" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2001 8:49 AM
Subject: Re: MD: what is an SACD?
> I believe the sampling frequency of DSD is 2.88224 MHz (64 * 44.1KHz).
> 
> Bob


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Re: MD: what is an SACD?

[Bob Willcox]

On Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 01:35:00PM -0800, Don Capps wrote:
> 
> From: "Matthew Bullis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
> > I noticed this as a format that you can buy on CDNow.com for some albums.
> What is this format? Thanks a lot.
> 
> SACD = Super Audio Compact Disc. It's a new high bitrate (24 bit word
> lengths) CD format developed by Sony.

No, DSD does not use PCM encoded.  Its a single bit encoding at 2.8224
MHz.  Consequently it doesn't have a "word" length.  It can, though, be
easily converted into any of the common PCM formats.

Bob

-- 
Bob Willcox The reason we come up with new versions is not to
[EMAIL PROTECTED]fix bugs.  It's absolutely not.
Austin, TX  -- Bill Gates
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Re: MD: what is an SACD?

[Bob Willcox]

On Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 09:35:01AM -0600, Francisco J. Huerta wrote:
> 
> Uhm... don't think so. HDCD CDs are pseudo 20-bit encoded recordings, which,
> at least to my ears, don't sound any better than a standard CD (and the DCC
> and MoFi remastered CDs sound a lot better to me than HDCDs, too!). SACDs
> are a totally different animal, they don't use PCM, but rather a technique
> known as Direct Stream Digital. The frequency they work at is 1MHz.

I believe the sampling frequency of DSD is 2.88224 MHz (64 * 44.1KHz).

Bob

-- 
Bob Willcox The reason we come up with new versions is not to
[EMAIL PROTECTED]fix bugs.  It's absolutely not.
Austin, TX  -- Bill Gates
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Re: MD: what is an SACD?

[Timothy Stockman]

>Correct me if I am wrong here, but I think that LDs predate the CD.
>And yes, audio was analogue. I don't think the quality was very high,
>though. All analogue audio LDs I own had a noise reduction encoding scheme
>in them; I think it was called "CX". And the analogue tracks always sounded
>unspectacular to me.

LD does indeed predate CD.  Magnavox introduced its "DiscoVision" LD player in 1977 or 
78 and Pioneer quickly followed 
with the VP1000 (which I still have).  The audio tracks were FM analog, similar to VHS 
hifi, hence the noise floor was, in 
large part, determined by flutter, caused by LD track eccetricity.  LD did indeed have 
CX noise reduction, just as VHS hifi 
uses a scheme similar to dbx.  I think the audio quality had more to do with the 
source material than the medium.  I have a 
few very early LD with reasonalby good soundtracks, but most are lackluster due to the 
source material.  This was due to 
the fact that video masters were usually on quad format tapes or U-matic format tapes; 
neither format had audio or video 
quality even close to LD's potential.  (Remember, when these came out, TV network 
sound had just started making the 
transition from the mono 3500Hz landline to mono 15KHz satellite, public TV only at 
that point; movies theater sound 
systems were generally fairly bad, as a rule.)  Suffice it to say that LD's 15KHz 
stereo  sound was overwhelmingly better 
than normal TV or movie sound of the day!  We've come a long way in the past 25 years 
with audio quality potential in 
consumer products.  Granted, LD's analog audio does not compete with today's DVD, but 
it was incredible for its time.


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Re: MD: what is an SACD?

[Francisco J. Huerta]

True. Correct me if I am wrong here, but I think that LDs predate the CD.
And yes, audio was analogue. I don't think the quality was very high,
though. All analogue audio LDs I own had a noise reduction encoding scheme
in them; I think it was called "CX". And the analogue tracks always sounded
unspectacular to me. Maybe a little bit more refinement is in order... but
it is an interesting proposition.

> I couldn't agree more. All we need is some noiseless ultra-sensitive
analog
> storage medium...it's that easy! :) I thought I had heard sometime that
> laserdiscs used analog audio, is this true? If so, how's the quality?


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Re: MD: what is an SACD?

[Anthony Lalande]

... pupu writes:

> I couldn't agree more. All we need is some noiseless ultra-sensitive analog
> storage medium...it's that easy! :) I thought I had heard sometime that
> laserdiscs used analog audio, is this true? If so, how's the quality?

While analog storage has its merits, it does lend itself to different kinds
of problems. For example, low batteries on tape players will lead to
harmonic distortions (i.e.: that tape motors slow down, and the frequency
falls), whereas low batteries on CD or MD units will just shut off the unit.

Also, in VCRs, the more a tape is used, the more the heads stretch the
ribbon (which is why you should never use cheap "ultra-fast rewind"
gadgets). With stretched ribbons, sync signals get stretched, and the VCR
has trouble with tracking.

In addition, no modern computer can process analog signals without first
running it through an analog-digital converter. Although I can see how
analog equipment might produce higher "definition" sound, it would probably
be pointless, since a lot of mixing is done in the studio with computers to
start with, so the analog copy would only be as good as the digital master.

- Anthony

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Re: MD: what is an SACD?

[pupu]

Larry wrote:

> All those ones and zeros are just feeble attempts to simulate a wave.
> Maybe we have been going the wrong way.  All of this digital crap.
> maybe we should have been concentrating on ways to faithfully reproduce
> waves.

I couldn't agree more. All we need is some noiseless ultra-sensitive analog
storage medium...it's that easy! :) I thought I had heard sometime that
laserdiscs used analog audio, is this true? If so, how's the quality?

My thoughts on SACD are that, technically speaking, it is the superior new
audio format. Plus, for whatever reason, DVDA and HDCD just leave a bad
taste in my mouth. Of course, people tend to buy into whatever seems best,
and since Microsoft acquired Pacific Microsonics I bet they will try their
best to force consumers into needing HDCD like they've done with all their
products. I for one hope SACD wins out.

Not that this has anything to do with Minidiscs.

- John

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Re: MD: what is an SACD?

[las]

Don Capps wrote:

> Funny isn't it? Remember all that "it's just ones and zeros" and "bits is
> bits" bullshit that Phillips/Sony were putting out in the early days of
> digital? If it was "perfect sound" then, as they so loudly touted, then why
> have they spend SO damned much money on improving it and pushing the
> technological boundaries in recent years? When you have a perfect format,
> how can you improve upon perfection?
>

The problem is that until they insert a chip into our brain, we hear analog.
All those ones and zeros are just feeble attempts to simulate a wave.  Maybe we
have been going the wrong way.  All of this digital crap.  maybe we should have
been concentrating on ways to faithfully reproduce waves.

Larry

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Re: MD: what is an SACD?

[Don Capps]

From: "Francisco J. Huerta" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> It's ok... I think I could...

Oh? Ladies and gentlemen...we have a genuine "golden ear" in our midst! ;-)

> but, isn't it nice to know that technology is so advanced, soon we might
stop discussing formats and concentrating on what's really important (the
music?) =)

Heheh. How true. Although I will almost certainly be a 'gear slut'.  :-)

Funny isn't it? Remember all that "it's just ones and zeros" and "bits is
bits" bullshit that Phillips/Sony were putting out in the early days of
digital? If it was "perfect sound" then, as they so loudly touted, then why
have they spend SO damned much money on improving it and pushing the
technological boundaries in recent years? When you have a perfect format,
how can you improve upon perfection?

Don C. (who's tickled with the sound of both DVD-A and SACD...and HDCD too)

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Re: MD: what is an SACD?

[Francisco J. Huerta]

It's ok... I think I could... but, isn't it nice to know that technology is
so advanced, soon we might stop discussing formats and concentrating on
what's really important (the music?) =)

Francisco.

- Original Message -
From: "Don Capps" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2001 10:54 PM
Subject: Re: MD: what is an SACD?


>
> From: "Francisco J. Huerta" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> > Uhm... don't think so.
>
> Sorry you don't think so. I heard 'em both together under double blind
> conditions (ABX comparator). Couldn't tell the difference. I'll bet you
> couldn't either. ;-)
>
> Don C.
>
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Re: MD: what is an SACD?

[Don Capps]

From: "Francisco J. Huerta" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> Wrong. DVD-A is the 24-bit audio format. SACD is *NOT* a CD format by any
means; it can hold a lot more information than a standard CD, like a DVD.
The SACD signal is formed by a pulse train signal at 1 MHz.

Yeah...my bad. You'll have to forgive me for getting my numbers wrong. It's
getting hard to keep up. Francisco is right. SACD is an expansion of Sony's
Super Bit Mapping Technology and (as such) uses a 1 bit converter with an
EXTREMELY high sampling rate to achieve it's remarkably high resolution.
Here's the scoop from Sony's press release :

At the time the CD was developed, the PCM format was the best technology
available for recording. Nearly two decades later, huge strides in
professional recording capabilities have outgrown the limitations inherent
in PCM's 16-bit quantization and 44.1kHz sampling frequency. In fact,
transferring a top quality digital studio recording onto a CD in PCM format
actually reduces the audio quality, because of the dependence on decimation
digital filters and multi-bit quantization.

The DSD recording format used in Super Audio CD, on the other hand, uses a
2.8224MHz sampling frequency for the original I-bit data to allow direct
recording of a Super Audio CD master. Thanks to DSD's I-bit nature, the
pulse is exceptionally faithfull to the original because superfluous
quantization and decimation processes are eliminated. Also, on the playback
side, use of DSD eliminates the need for interpolation and steep
anti-aliasing filters traditionally used to block frequences above 20kHz, as
well. With the DSD format, frequency response is broadened to 100kHz with a
dynamic range of 120dB (audible frequency range). In short, DSD allows
direct recording of a very accurate pulse which can be easily played back
with exceptional results.

The DSD format used for Super Audio CD presents an excellent opportunity for
the music industry, allowing the production of exceptionally high- quality
audio masters for new titles and for preserving present analog archives.
Super Audio CD is the ideal media for recording and playback of high
fidelity pure audio.



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Re: MD: what is an SACD?

[Don Capps]

From: "Francisco J. Huerta" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> Uhm... don't think so.

Sorry you don't think so. I heard 'em both together under double blind
conditions (ABX comparator). Couldn't tell the difference. I'll bet you
couldn't either. ;-)

Don C.

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Re: MD: what is an SACD?

[las]

"Francisco J. Huerta" wrote:

> I listened to SACD in January at the CES. I can sincerely say I've never
> quite heard anything like it. I haven't even tried to buy it yet, though,
> because I  am waiting to see who will win the "format wars". Or maybe an
> universal DVD-A / SACD player.
>
> Sure.  That's because I just bought a 2 draw Toshiba DVD player that also
> plays HDCDs.  They did it to me again!

Of course better sound quality has noting to do with what becomes accepted.  The
stores should be filled with Mini Discs, but I still see tons of cassettes (both
blank and prerecorded) for sale and no Mini Discs.

I see plenty of reasonably priced dts receivers available, but I don't see many
DVDs that are encoded in dts.

Larry


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Re: MD: what is an SACD?

[Francisco J. Huerta]

Wrong. DVD-A is the 24-bit audio format. SACD is *NOT* a CD format by any
means; it can hold a lot more information than a standard CD, like a DVD.

The SACD signal is formed by a pulse train signal at 1 MHz.

- Original Message -
From: "Don Capps" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2001 3:35 PM
Subject: Re: MD: what is an SACD?


>
> From: "Matthew Bullis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> > I noticed this as a format that you can buy on CDNow.com for some
albums.
> What is this format? Thanks a lot.
>
> SACD = Super Audio Compact Disc. It's a new high bitrate (24 bit word
> lengths) CD format developed by Sony.
>
> Don C.
>
>
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Re: MD: what is an SACD?

[Francisco J. Huerta]

Uhm... don't think so. HDCD CDs are pseudo 20-bit encoded recordings, which,
at least to my ears, don't sound any better than a standard CD (and the DCC
and MoFi remastered CDs sound a lot better to me than HDCDs, too!). SACDs
are a totally different animal, they don't use PCM, but rather a technique
known as Direct Stream Digital. The frequency they work at is 1MHz. In plain
paper, the format is directly comparable to DVD-A, but I've read a lot of
reviews of people that think that the signal DSD produces looks quite a bit
"analogue-like", and suffers less from  PCM drawbacks.

I listened to SACD in January at the CES. I can sincerely say I've never
quite heard anything like it. I haven't even tried to buy it yet, though,
because I  am waiting to see who will win the "format wars". Or maybe an
universal DVD-A / SACD player.

Francisco.

- Original Message -
From: "Don Capps" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2001 10:13 PM
Subject: Re: MD: what is an SACD?


>
> From: "las" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> > How does it stack up against HCDC CDs?
>
> They're both very good...very comparable to each other.
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Re: MD: what is an SACD?

[Mario Diaz]

> How does it stack up against HCDC CDs?

It blows them away. SACD is THE "non plus ultra" of current music
reproduction hardware.

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Re: MD: what is an SACD?

[las]

Don Capps wrote:

> The new technology is just around the
> corner. And computers? Even worse! Oi vay!
>
> Don C12

Some how I have managed too accept that computers price per new features ratio
drop every day.  I tell everyone that asks me what to buy, not to feel bad when
in a few months they will be able to get either the same computer for  much less
or much more computer for the same money.

Larry

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Re: MD: what is an SACD?

[Don Capps]

From: "las" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

>That's one of those human weaknesses that make other people rich. I swear I
have spent my life saving to buy things only to have them become obsolescent
as soon as I finally get them.

It's the nature of the hobby Larry. I've been an audiophile for many years
(too many) and it NEVER changes. The new technology is just around the
corner. And computers? Even worse! Oi vay!

Don C12

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Re: MD: what is an SACD?

[las]

Don Capps wrote:

> They're both very good...very comparable to each other. It's just another in
> the long line of format wars Larry. Who knows which will be left standing
> when the dust settles?
>

Buddhists have the right idea.  They don't put too much importance on material
things.  That's one of those human weaknesses that make other people rich.  I
swear I have spent my life saving to buy things only to have them become
obsolescent as soon as I finally get them.

It's only been a few months since I got a THX/DTS receiver after having the same
Pro Logic receiver for about 15 years and now they come out with THX-EX and
dts-SE!

Larry

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Re: MD: what is an SACD?

[Don Capps]

From: "las" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> How does it stack up against HCDC CDs?

They're both very good...very comparable to each other. It's just another in
the long line of format wars Larry. Who knows which will be left standing
when the dust settles?

Don C.

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Re: MD: what is an SACD?

[las]

  ===
  = NB: Over 50% of this message is QUOTED, please  =
  = be more selective when quoting text =
  ===

Sorry that's HDCD CDs.

Mario Diaz wrote:

>
>
> Super Audio CD is Sony and Phillips latest
> new hardware release. The sound reproduction is definitely superior to CD
> but they have a serious limitation. THE PRICE!! Even though SONY and others
> have come out with Economic SACD players that function very close to their
> high price items, the software itself is outrageoulsy expensive. They will
> not succeed with this format because of this reason. It's a shame because
> the music is better than analog
>

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Re: MD: what is an SACD?

[las]

  ===
  = NB: Over 50% of this message is QUOTED, please  =
  = be more selective when quoting text =
  ===

How does it stack up against HCDC CDs?
larry

Mario Diaz wrote:

> Super Audio CD is Sony and Phillips latest
> new hardware release. The sound reproduction is definitely superior to CD
> but they have a serious limitation. THE PRICE!! Even though SONY and others
> have come out with Economic SACD players that function very close to their
> high price items, the software itself is outrageoulsy expensive. They will
> not succeed with this format because of this reason. It's a shame because
> the music is better than analog
>
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Re: MD: what is an SACD?

[Mario Diaz]

> I noticed this as a format that you can buy on CDNow.com for some albums.
> What is this format?
> Thanks a lot.
> Matthew

Super Audio CD is Sony and Phillips latest
new hardware release. The sound reproduction is definitely superior to CD
but they have a serious limitation. THE PRICE!! Even though SONY and others
have come out with Economic SACD players that function very close to their
high price items, the software itself is outrageoulsy expensive. They will
not succeed with this format because of this reason. It's a shame because
the music is better than analog

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Re: MD: what is an SACD?

[Don Capps]

From: "Matthew Bullis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> I noticed this as a format that you can buy on CDNow.com for some albums.
What is this format? Thanks a lot.

SACD = Super Audio Compact Disc. It's a new high bitrate (24 bit word
lengths) CD format developed by Sony.

Don C.


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Re: MD: what is an SACD?

[las]

Matthew Bullis wrote:

> I noticed this as a format that you can buy on CDNow.com for some albums.
> What is this format?
> Thanks a lot.
> Matthew

Here's some information on the subject:

http://www.dvd-audio.co.uk/dvda_sacd.html


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