Re: [MBZ] OT - Vietnam Veterans Memorial
In my view, there is nothing admirable in a man that lets other men and their children fight for him, but cheats his way out of doing his own part. I don't mean real COs who have the courage to face the consequences. As Wilton pointed out. The strategy in SEA (and also Iraq) was a cluster from the start. The fix is political: communicate with your elected representatives and, if they don't change course, get rid of them at the next opportunity. There is also passive resistance: public demonstrations, public speech, and now the Internet. I also respect such demonstrators, whether I agree with them or not. I wouldn't say that about the "armchair generals" who can bloviate all day long but do never do anything. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT - Vietnam Veterans Memorial
Dan Penoff wrote: My oldest brother was approaching draft age as the Vietnam war was winding down, but my Dad, a hard core Nixon Republican, was adamant that none of us would be drafted for this war. In anticipation of the approaching draft he was making arrangements to transfer to a division of GM that was based in Canada. His stated rationale was that if we were in Canada then he would refuse to allow us to register and we could stay there as conscientious objectors. That's one way around it. My sister took off with a draft dodger hippie guy in the early 70s who went to the area around Revelstoke, BC (Selkirk Mountains) and lived in a commune. I went through the area back in the 90s and many of the people that bailed due to the war are still there. It's a weird place, like going back in time. Beautiful country, though. I must say I've got more respect for Cassius Clay "This police action is wrong, I'd rather go to jail than participate" than I have for the illegal aliens in Canada. (I don't have a lot of respect for the illegal aliens here either.) Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT - Vietnam Veterans Memorial
Well, as you can see, of course, the Vietnam presentation is about stuff that occurred 40 to 60 years ago. ;<) Wilton - Original Message - From: "Tim Crone" To: "Mercedes List" Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 11:20 AM Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - Vietnam Veterans Memorial My sister's are early high school, the coop is all over the map though. Many (most?) of the kids have at least one army or ex-army parent (Fort Bragg) so they might have a bit more appreciation. On the other hand they are rabidly neocon overall so you would need to stay away from current events... ;) Best, Tim On Apr 25, 2013 6:10 PM, "WILTON" wrote: Maybe so. What ages are the children; I was thinking high school, etc. 'You think younger would/could understand it OK? Wilton - Original Message - From: "Tim Crone" To: "Mercedes Discussion List" Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 11:23 AM Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - Vietnam Veterans Memorial On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 10:13 AM, WILTON wrote: Thnks, glad to have the opportunity. Wilton My sister is involved in a big homeschool coop in Harnett County, would you be interested in presenting to them? They could probably make a day trip out of it, not sure what all is in Goldsboro other than the AFB. (And of course I can't say for sure that she or the others would go for it, but I didn't want to suggest it without asking you.) Also it would be worth checking with the high school history teachers, they would probably love to have you come so they don't have to do a lesson plan - I mean speak to their students. :) Best, Tim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT - Vietnam Veterans Memorial
My sister's are early high school, the coop is all over the map though. Many (most?) of the kids have at least one army or ex-army parent (Fort Bragg) so they might have a bit more appreciation. On the other hand they are rabidly neocon overall so you would need to stay away from current events... ;) Best, Tim > > On Apr 25, 2013 6:10 PM, "WILTON" wrote: >> >> Maybe so. What ages are the children; I was thinking high school, etc. 'You think younger would/could understand it OK? >> >> Wilton >> >> - Original Message - From: "Tim Crone" >> To: "Mercedes Discussion List" >> Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 11:23 AM >> Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - Vietnam Veterans Memorial >> >> >>> On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 10:13 AM, WILTON wrote: >>> >>>> Thnks, glad to have the opportunity. >>>> Wilton >>>> >>> >>> My sister is involved in a big homeschool coop in Harnett County, would you >>> be interested in presenting to them? They could probably make a day trip >>> out of it, not sure what all is in Goldsboro other than the AFB. (And of >>> course I can't say for sure that she or the others would go for it, but I >>> didn't want to suggest it without asking you.) >>> >>> Also it would be worth checking with the high school history teachers, they >>> would probably love to have you come so they don't have to do a lesson plan >>> - I mean speak to their students. :) >>> >>> Best, >>> Tim >>> ___ >>> http://www.okiebenz.com >>> For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com >>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ >>> >>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: >>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com >> >> >> >> ___ >> http://www.okiebenz.com >> For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com >> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ >> >> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: >> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT - Vietnam Veterans Memorial
As I said, I was upset, 'cause I KNEW it was gonna be a screwed up mess like Korea. Also thought that we should not get involved without full, national knowledge and consent and a proper declaration of war as necessary. After way too many years "playing" at it, we finally fought the war for 11 days. 'Went into Iraq with the same type of BS. Governments don't have memories and, therefore, never learn. I knew we were in trouble in Iraq when I saw US Marines kicking down their doors and holding guns on their wives and children. Then we stood by and watched as the people destroyed their own infrastructure by all-out, free-for-all looting. Then the "stage" was firmly set when Mr. "Governor" (Whas'is name, Bremmer or Brenner?), with one stroke of a pen, did away with all of their government, all of their police and all of their military and sent all of those well-trained people home mad as hell, with no jobs and all of their guns and ammo. Less than 24 hours later, they set off first roadside IED. 'Screwed up Afghanistan by trying to do it "cheap," and let Taliban and Al-Qaida get away to sanctuary in Pakistan, then turned our backs on Afghanistan hoping Taliban and Al-Qaida would just go away. There's more, but I'll try to calm down, now. ;<) Wilton - Original Message - From: "Mitch Haley" To: "Mercedes Discussion List" Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 8:50 AM Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - Vietnam Veterans Memorial WILTON wrote: The tragedy of the Vietnam War is exceeded by only slavery and the Civil War as this nation's greatest tragedy. Not only were thousands of fine, young Americans sacrificed needlessly, sent into harm's way by a government with no commitment to a resolution to the conflict, but the conflict divided the country like nothing else since the Civil War. When I was of draft age, I registered for Selective Service, but with the intent to refuse if they followed the example set in Korea and Vietnam of drafting with no declaration of war. I would have just told the draft board to give me a call when/if Congress ever declared war, as I felt that conscription was entirely unjustified outside of war. I've changed my mind since then. I now feel that conscription is slavery of the worst kind, and the 13th Amendment outlaws human slavery. If the country isn't facing a genuine threat to its survival, it's got no business sending citizens to their deaths against their will. If the country is facing a genuine threat to its survival, it doesn't need conscription, it can fight the attackers with volunteers. If the country is facing a genuine threat to its survival and its citizens don't want to fight to defend it, then that country's culture is so sick that it doesn't deserve to survive. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT - Vietnam Veterans Memorial
My oldest brother was approaching draft age as the Vietnam war was winding down, but my Dad, a hard core Nixon Republican, was adamant that none of us would be drafted for this war. In anticipation of the approaching draft he was making arrangements to transfer to a division of GM that was based in Canada. His stated rationale was that if we were in Canada then he would refuse to allow us to register and we could stay there as conscientious objectors. My sister took off with a draft dodger hippie guy in the early 70s who went to the area around Revelstoke, BC (Selkirk Mountains) and lived in a commune. I went through the area back in the 90s and many of the people that bailed due to the war are still there. It's a weird place, like going back in time. Beautiful country, though. Dan On Apr 27, 2013, at 8:50 AM, Mitch Haley wrote: > When I was of draft age, I registered for Selective Service, but with the > intent to refuse if they followed the example set in Korea and Vietnam of > drafting with no declaration of war. I would have just told the draft board > to give me a call when/if Congress ever declared war, as I felt that > conscription was entirely unjustified outside of war. > > I've changed my mind since then. I now feel that conscription is slavery of > the worst kind, and the 13th Amendment outlaws human slavery. > > If the country isn't facing a genuine threat to its survival, it's got no > business sending citizens to their deaths against their will. > If the country is facing a genuine threat to its survival, it doesn't need > conscription, it can fight the attackers with volunteers. > If the country is facing a genuine threat to its survival and its citizens > don't want to fight to defend it, then that country's culture is so sick that > it doesn't deserve to survive. > > Mitch. > > ___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT - Vietnam Veterans Memorial
WILTON wrote: The tragedy of the Vietnam War is exceeded by only slavery and the Civil War as this nation's greatest tragedy. Not only were thousands of fine, young Americans sacrificed needlessly, sent into harm's way by a government with no commitment to a resolution to the conflict, but the conflict divided the country like nothing else since the Civil War. When I was of draft age, I registered for Selective Service, but with the intent to refuse if they followed the example set in Korea and Vietnam of drafting with no declaration of war. I would have just told the draft board to give me a call when/if Congress ever declared war, as I felt that conscription was entirely unjustified outside of war. I've changed my mind since then. I now feel that conscription is slavery of the worst kind, and the 13th Amendment outlaws human slavery. If the country isn't facing a genuine threat to its survival, it's got no business sending citizens to their deaths against their will. If the country is facing a genuine threat to its survival, it doesn't need conscription, it can fight the attackers with volunteers. If the country is facing a genuine threat to its survival and its citizens don't want to fight to defend it, then that country's culture is so sick that it doesn't deserve to survive. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT - Vietnam Veterans Memorial
Maybe so. What ages are the children; I was thinking high school, etc. 'You think younger would/could understand it OK? Wilton - Original Message - From: "Tim Crone" To: "Mercedes Discussion List" Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 11:23 AM Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - Vietnam Veterans Memorial On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 10:13 AM, WILTON wrote: Thnks, glad to have the opportunity. Wilton My sister is involved in a big homeschool coop in Harnett County, would you be interested in presenting to them? They could probably make a day trip out of it, not sure what all is in Goldsboro other than the AFB. (And of course I can't say for sure that she or the others would go for it, but I didn't want to suggest it without asking you.) Also it would be worth checking with the high school history teachers, they would probably love to have you come so they don't have to do a lesson plan - I mean speak to their students. :) Best, Tim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT - Vietnam Veterans Memorial
On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 10:13 AM, WILTON wrote: > Thnks, glad to have the opportunity. > Wilton > My sister is involved in a big homeschool coop in Harnett County, would you be interested in presenting to them? They could probably make a day trip out of it, not sure what all is in Goldsboro other than the AFB. (And of course I can't say for sure that she or the others would go for it, but I didn't want to suggest it without asking you.) Also it would be worth checking with the high school history teachers, they would probably love to have you come so they don't have to do a lesson plan - I mean speak to their students. :) Best, Tim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT - Vietnam Veterans Memorial
Thnks, glad to have the opportunity. Wilton - Original Message - From: "Dieselhead" <126die...@gmail.com> To: "Mercedes Discussion List" Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2013 12:08 AM Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - Vietnam Veterans Memorial >ATTABOY, Wilton. Mitch. Thanks for posting that Wilton, and thanks again for your service. What you wrote is a sobering dose of reality. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT - Vietnam Veterans Memorial
ATTABOY, Wilton. Mitch. Thanks for posting that Wilton, and thanks again for your service. What you wrote is a sobering dose of reality. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT - Vietnam Veterans Memorial
ATTABOY, Wilton. Mitch. WILTON wrote: Well, here it is, anyway -- a proposed presentation that I composed for possible presentation to local school and civic groups in support of the Traveling Vietnam Veterans Memorial here in Goldsboro last week. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT - Vietnam Veterans Memorial
OK Don wrote: well said, Wilton. My experience at the Wall was similar. Thanks for taking the time to write this. Any other top-posters quote Wilton's entire post and it'll make for one heck of a digest. Mitch. ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
Re: [MBZ] OT - Vietnam Veterans Memorial
well said, Wilton. My experience at the Wall was similar. Thanks for taking the time to write this. "ATTABOY"! On Wed, Apr 24, 2013 at 9:53 AM, WILTON wrote: > Well, here it is, anyway -- a proposed presentation that I composed for > possible presentation to local school and civic groups in support of the > Traveling Vietnam Veterans Memorial here in Goldsboro last week. The > presentation was not made, however, for reasons unknown to me - lack of > interest by coordinators or school officials, maybe - I don't know. It is > a combination of history lesson and memorial. It briefly recounts some of > the events that led us into the war and some of the ridiculous policies > that prolonged it and led to having the names of more then 58000 brave, > young Americans etched into that hallowed wall in DC. > > THE WALL > By Wilton Strickland > > The tragedy of the Vietnam War is exceeded by only slavery and the Civil > War as this nation's greatest tragedy. Not only were thousands of fine, > young Americans sacrificed needlessly, sent into harm's way by a government > with no commitment to a resolution to the conflict, but the conflict > divided the country like nothing else since the Civil War. > > The tragedy is best illustrated by the Vietnam Veterans Memorial, the > black granite wall in Washington, DC, which has etched into it more than 58 > thousand names of the real heroes of the war. Members of their families > are also heroes who still suffer from the perpetual absence of their loved > ones who have never returned. Thousands of children have grown up never > knowing their fathers and grandfathers, and thousands of children and > grandchildren of the victims have never been born and never will be. Many > families have waited 45 years and more not knowing the fates of their lost > loved-ones, and many will never know. The suffering continues. > > To get a proper feel for this tragedy and to help us better understand and > to remember, every American should visit the Memorial, study those names > etched into it and think very seriously about how they got there. > > Let me quickly review some of the events and policies that put them there, > starting with the French, who have had a strong influence and presence in > the areas of Cambodia, Laos and Vietnam since the mid 1800's. For many > years, the area was even known as French Indochina. During WWII, the area > was captured and occupied by the Japanese. After WWII, the French tried to > reassert control, but meanwhile, a Communist insurgency led by Ho Chi Minh > had gained strong influence, and a civil war erupted. The United States > began to provide military aid to the French in Vietnam in 1950, but the > Communist forces defeated the French at Dien Bien Phu in 1954, and Viet Nam > was divided into North and South Vietnam along a demilitarized zone just > south of the 17th parallel with a Communist government in the North and a > government friendly to the United States in the South. South Vietnam > immediately began to ask the United States for support against Communist > influence and insurgency from the North - the first being given in 1955. > The insurgency in the South was originally conducted by local forces > friendly to the North and were known as Viet Cong. Later, many North > Vietnamese troops were also directly involved. > > As the insurgency increased, the United States gradually increased aid to > South Vietnam, including military supplies, equipment and military advisors > working closely with the South Vietnamese Army and Air Force. > > By late 1962, I was living in Georgia as an Air Force lieutenant on a B-52 > combat crew. There I spent about a third of my time on alert with B-52's > loaded with nuclear weapons ready to launch at a moment's notice and strike > targets in the Soviet Union. By 1963 and '64, I began to see articles in > the Atlanta Constitution newspaper about American military advisors being > killed in Vietnam. This was very disturbing to me. I could so easily > remember the stalemate that drug on for years in Korea without a resolution > only 10 to 12 years or so before. I was afraid that the conflict in > Vietnam would get bogged down into the same type of indecisiveness. I > felt, that, because of the way that it was going to be conducted, i. e., > piecemeal and haphazardly, we should not get involved in Vietnam, but if we > were going to be involved, we should be quick and decisive about it. > > We were easing into a war that most Americans didn't even know about. > Those who did know about it didn't seem to care as long as it was somebody > else's son, brother, husband, cousin or friend who was getting killed, hurt > or taken prisoner. > > Then in Aug of '64 there were two incidents that led to much greater > American involvement - American war ships in international waters in the > Gulf of Tonkin off of N. Vietnam were confronted and fired upon by several > N. Vietnamese torpedo boats. The Am
