Re: Mersenne: GIMPS in Science News

[Nathan Russell]

>From: Yvan Dutil <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: Mersenne: GIMPS in Science News
>Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 14:45:22 +0100
>
>Well, I think the diffence of culture between the people of GIMPS and those
>of SETI@Home can be illustred simply by the comparaison of subject of
>discussion

Agreed!

>between this list and  sci.astro.seti. This is the listing of recent
>subjects:
>
>
>SETI@home Online Newsletter 1
>Cmd line ver 2.4
>exe   2
>problems width WINNT CLI 2.45

One wonders whether this is a typo or a problem resizing the window.  Rather 
sad in either case.

>No more blinking
>icon2


>Exobiology and the Fermi paradox.  32
>BeOS client
>question   
>6
>Command line 2.4 is "Doing basline smoothing." all  5


No problems with these three...

> HAVE FUN
>2
>Fight Gasoline
>Prices   119

Can you imagine how upset the people on here would be if there were an OT 
thread that got that many replies?

>ANN: SETI Spy 2.3.1 available   
>9
>
>WINNT CLI 2.4 upgrade from WINNT CLI 2.0  32
>Clarification on "strongest gaussians"   3
>Win NT CLI version 2.4 still gets   wrong percentage  3
>SETI Monitor is ZDNet's pick of   the day!!!  9
>MicroSoft
>Case
>7

Another OT thing typical of Usenet... I might note here that the 's' in 
Microsoft should be lowercase.  I wonder whether that was noted.

>Ye Olde
>data?
>3
>Scientists discover two new planets circling stars 1
>anybody know how to set up a ramdisk?   5

?!

>Mac s@h
>clients
>10
>Software Flaw - WHO DO I TELL   5

Sounds like some of the stuff I posted when I first got on, only about ten 
times worse.

>Problems with
>server  1
>A quick
>tip...
>1
>Problems with returning result (error -20;2)   1
>2 cts about WU processing time  
>1
>
>Missing switches in CLI S@H   clients 1
>
>This newsgroupe may not represent teh majority of users. maybe, 
>alt.sci.seti
>would do better.

LOL

>
>Yvan Dutil

Regards,
Nathan, wondering how much it cost the Usenet server companies to pass along 
that "gas prices" thread.
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Re: Mersenne: GIMPS in Science News

[Tzepish]

<>

We get what you're saying with the /very/ (emphasis on very), but it could 
have been more accurately expressed with:

M(17) is about the number of people that could fit in three open arena 
stadiums.

 - Blaine Higdon
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RE: Mersenne: GIMPS in Science News

[Rick Pali]

Pierre About wrote:

> > > M(17) is the number of people that could fit into a /very/
> > > large open arena or stadium.
> >
> > What stadium is that big? The one at Urbana seats only about 2.
>
> I think the one at U. of Texas Austin holds 60,000

Even one of the shorter tracks on the NASCAR circuit (Bristol) holds 250,000
people.

Rick.
-+---
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.alienshore.com/

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Re: Mersenne: GIMPS in Science News

[kilfoyle]

I think the one at U. of Texas Austin holds 60,000

Pierre About wrote:

> >M(17) is the number of people that could fit into a /very/ large open arena
> >or stadium.
>
> What stadium is that big? The one at Urbana seats only about 2.
>
> phma
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Re: Mersenne: GIMPS in Science News

[Pierre Abbat]

>M(17) is the number of people that could fit into a /very/ large open arena 
>or stadium.

What stadium is that big? The one at Urbana seats only about 2.

phma
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RE: Mersenne: GIMPS in Science News

[Aaron Blosser]

>I do wonder whether /any/ people can really appreciate the size of numbers
>with the magnitude of the Mersenne primes.  Running down the list of known
>ones: (? signifies that I'm not sure how to represent the number)

I don't recall the details, but one nice example I heard to demonstrate
large probabilities was:

Imagine you have a little bulldozer (atomic sized of course :)  (assume
hydrogen atoms since they be the smallest)

This little bulldozer is tasked with moving a universe sized # of atoms from
one side of a universe width to the other.

It can only move one atomic width each year while pushing each atom, and
then must move one atomic width each year on the way back to pick up the
next one.

The number of years it would take to move those atoms is, as you might
guess, the really big number being conceptualized.

Now...what I don't recall off the top of my head are (a) what's the estimate
for the number of atoms in the universe, (b) about what is the estimated
radius of the universe (if it's spherical at all, which, by big bang
standards, it should approximate), and (c) what's the width of a hydrogen
atom.

Perhaps if I'm feeling up to it, I'll find which book I read this example
in.  It probably doesn't bear mentioning that I read this stuff in a book on
the odds of abiogenesis occurring. :)  So just ignore that aspect.  Probably
in Behe's "Darwin's Black Box" or Sproul's "Not a Chance"

Aaron

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Re: Mersenne: GIMPS in Science News

[Nathan Russell]

>From: Bryon Buck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: Mersenne: GIMPS in Science News
>Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 00:01:53

>1.  To the average person, aliens are a lot "sexier" than prime numbers.
>Anyone can picture little green men from Mars, but it takes a special
>person to apprecite what a prime number is, and especially prime numbers of
>the magnitude we deal with.

I do wonder whether /any/ people can really appreciate the size of numbers 
with the magnitude of the Mersenne primes.  Running down the list of known 
ones: (? signifies that I'm not sure how to represent the number)

M(2) presents no problem

M(3) is about the limit of how high a typical person can count by sight, 
i.e. without actually thinking in order of the names of numbers.

M(5) is in the range of the highest numbers we count to in day-to-day life.

M(7) is the highest Mersenne prime to which an average person has counted in 
their life

M(13) approaches the number of letters it is possible to print visibly on 
one piece of paper, and is the highest that a person could theoretically 
count to in one sitting.

M(17) is the number of people that could fit into a /very/ large open arena 
or stadium.

M(19) would take the better part of a month to count to.

M(31) exceeds the population of China, and is impossible to count to in a 
person's lifetime.  It is comparable to the number of heartbeats in a 
lifetime, and compares favorably with the number of stars in the galaxy, and 
is about a third of the world population.

M(61) is a decent approximation for the number of living cells on this 
planet.  It is a realistic upper limit on the amount of data that the world 
will ever store.

M(89) ?

M(107) ?

M(127) is slightly less than the number of grams in the sun.

M(521) is far greater than the number of particles in our universe.

M(607)?

M(1279) ?

M(2203) is comparable to the number of text documents the length of this 
email.

M(2281) ?
M(3217) ?

>From here on I have no clue how to proceed.  "The number of atoms in the 
universe to the power X" or "the number of possible N digit numbers" gives 
little impression of the size of the number.

Regards, Nathan

P.S. If anyone wants to take a shot at the others, I left the rest of the 
list of exponents in this email.

4253
9689
9941
11213
19937
21701
23209
44497
86243
110503
132049
216091
756839
859433
1257787
1398269
2976221
3021377
69725931
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Re: Mersenne: GIMPS in Science News

[Brian J. Beesley]

On 30 Mar 00, at 10:27, Stefan Struiker wrote:

> I will be more detailed later, once I collect and refine my thoughts, but
> at this point let me say that I think it is the group attracted to SETI,
> and the Area 51, uh, "enthusiasts," who need some work, not the MPrime
> interface.

I tend to agree. However could I respectfully point out that those 
willing to trade a small percentage of CPU cycles for a pretty 
display could pretty easily build a "skin" to hide the Prime95 
console window behind.


Regards
Brian Beesley
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Re: Mersenne: GIMPS in Science News

[Yvan Dutil]

Well, I think the diffence of culture between the people of GIMPS and those
of SETI@Home can be illustred simply by the comparaison of subject of
discussion
between this list and  sci.astro.seti. This is the listing of recent
subjects:


SETI@home Online Newsletter 1
Cmd line ver 2.4
exe   2
problems width WINNT CLI 2.45
No more blinking
icon2
Exobiology and the Fermi paradox.  32
BeOS client
question   6
Command line 2.4 is "Doing basline smoothing." all  5
 HAVE FUN
2
Fight Gasoline
Prices   119
ANN: SETI Spy 2.3.1 available   9

WINNT CLI 2.4 upgrade from WINNT CLI 2.0  32
Clarification on "strongest gaussians"   3
Win NT CLI version 2.4 still gets   wrong percentage  3
SETI Monitor is ZDNet's pick of   the day!!!  9
MicroSoft
Case
7
Ye Olde
data?
3
Scientists discover two new planets circling stars 1
anybody know how to set up a ramdisk?   5
Mac s@h
clients
10
Software Flaw - WHO DO I TELL   5
Problems with
server  1
A quick
tip...
1
Problems with returning result (error -20;2)   1
2 cts about WU processing time  1

Missing switches in CLI S@H   clients 1

This newsgroupe may not represent teh majority of users. maybe, alt.sci.seti
would do better.

Yvan Dutil



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Re: Mersenne: GIMPS in Science News

[Bryon Buck]

At 08:29 PM 03/30/2000 +1200, you wrote:

>Is it that the search for prime numbers is perceived to be the domain of
>geeks while everybody is supposed to be excited about extra-terrestrial
>life?

1.  To the average person, aliens are a lot "sexier" than prime numbers.
Anyone can picture little green men from Mars, but it takes a special
person to apprecite what a prime number is, and especially prime numbers of
the magnitude we deal with.

2.  SETI has had some high profile press.  I can't remember when and where
I first heard of the SETI screen saver project, but it was on a prominent
web news site about two years ago.

take care,


--buck

--
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6829-D Ramblewood Drive
Fort Wayne, IN  46835
219-492-4231
ICQ:  4890668
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Re: Mersenne: GIMPS in Science News

[Lucas Wiman]

> Precisely.  I hope a serious discussion, short of a "war," can be ignited,
> although perhaps GIMPS is not  the proper forum.  George and
> and the other pioneers and principals might weigh in on this.  The "listening"
> SETI group, not the astro-physicist community searching for Earth-like planets,
> seems a bit lunatic fringe.

I agree, the logistics of them sending a message to Earth and us recieving
it seem, well, a bit out of this world.  :)  In this case they are not hurting
us though.  It may seem that they are, but my guess would be that the number
of people that switched from GIMPS to SETI@Home is small.  It's not like we 
would have a million people giving us their CPU power were it not for SETI.

All in all, SETI is probably a benefit.  Think of the number of articles 
about SETI@Home that also incidentally mention GIMPS (I can think of at 
least 2 in the last month alone...).  This probably helps us recruit members.

-Lucas

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Re: Mersenne: GIMPS in Science News

[Nathan Russell]

>From: "Frank_A_L_I_N_Y" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: "Stefan Struiker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>CC: "James Escamilla" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: Re: Mersenne: GIMPS in Science News
>Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 14:23:34 -0500
>
>what aobut the fact that our tests will take longer and longer as the
>exponents get larger
>
>Frank

I believe that Moore's Law will more than make up for that, unless huge 
numbers of machines start joining GIMPS.

Regards,
Nathan
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Re: Mersenne: GIMPS in Science News

[Stefan Struiker]

 
Nathan Russell wrote:
all the ones I named were previous efforts) have
found.  I hope this doesn't
start /another/ onlist flamewar...  (sigh)
 
>I'm much more excited about gimps, and believe that I am much more
>likely to find a certain Mersenne prime than evidence about
>extra-terrestrial life (which would still only be a speculation even
>so).
Precisely.  I hope a serious discussion, short of a "war," can be
ignited,
although perhaps GIMPS is not  the proper forum.  George
and
and the other pioneers and principals might weigh in on this. 
The "listening"
SETI group, not the astro-physicist community searching for
Earth-like planets,
seems a bit lunatic fringe.
Stefanovic

Re: Mersenne: GIMPS in Science News

[Stefan Struiker]

Our machines are getting faster, wider, better.  Itanium!  Williamette!
On to victory! And someone is going to find that double-time code
breakthrough to get us all there at twice the speed.
Where is Alan Turing when we really need him?!
Stefanovic
Frank_A_L_I_N_Y wrote:

> what aobut the fact that our tests will take longer and longer as the
> exponents get larger
>
> Frank

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RE: Mersenne: GIMPS in Science News

[Aaron Blosser]

>I hope this doesn't
>start /another/ onlist flamewar...  (sigh)

I doubt that would happen on here...the people on this list are all a part
of GIMPS, presumably.  Well, except for the FBI and US WEST folks who
monitor my posts. :)  So I think it's safe to say that you're just preaching
to the choir here.

>I wonder if telling them about the possibility of finding hardware errors
>would help.  If we can each get all our friends to run one 5-30 day
>double-check each, it'll make a huge difference.

For what it's worth, one interesting side effect of me running the client on
all those US WEST machines was that I found a few machines during my look at
the logfiles of them that had failed with some bad hardware errors.

I made notes of the machines that had problems like that and removed the
client from them...I actually intended to open up service tickets on those
machines, but the US WEST security folks got to me first. :(  I mentioned
the bad machines to them during my "interrogation", but they didn't seem too
interested in that more benevolent aspect.

>Some of these people had downloaded the seti client
>>and run it for a while but didn't seem to be impressed by its
>>performance or results.
>>I'm much more excited about gimps, and believe that I am much more
>>likely to find a certain Mersenne prime than evidence about
>>extra-terrestrial life (which would still only be a speculation even
>>so).

Curiously, some of the SETI clients I found on our network here were older
1.x clients which, apparently, will not get any new work assignments.  I'm
sure these people just installed it on a whim and forgot about it...  I
don't know much at all about SETI@Home (I had to download the client and
peek inside the CAB files just to see what the executable name of it was),
so I may be wrong about that 1.x assumption...but that's what the readme
seemed to say.

And the whole thing about people faking work results on SETI...sigh...that's
just so sad...  I'm sure it's things like that which force them to send
duplicate data sets to people.  At least with GIMPS, we already do
double-checks anyway, just as standard due diligence.  And the "security"
CRC or whatever that George puts into his compiled code for the results has
been there for some time, correct?

Well, I've said before that the odds of finding ET are very small, given the
odds that any exist at all.  But that point aside, I personally find it more
stimulating to use my spare computer's time for a cause with more tangible
results.

Just my $0.02 worth. :)

Aaron

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Re: Mersenne: GIMPS in Science News

[Frank_A_L_I_N_Y]

what aobut the fact that our tests will take longer and longer as the
exponents get larger

Frank

-Original Message-
From: Stefan Struiker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: James Escamilla <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thursday, March 30, 2000 1:48 PM
Subject: Re: Mersenne: GIMPS in Science News


>TeamM:
>
>I will be more detailed later, once I collect and refine my thoughts, but
at
>this point let me say that I think it is the group attracted to SETI, and
the
>Area 51, uh, "enthusiasts," who need some work, not the MPrime interface.
>
>More to come,
>
>Regards,
>Stefanovic
>
>Geoffrey Faivre-Malloy wrote:
>
>> > The main reason I’ve heard for people liking the Seti project is
>> > because the screen saver looks pretty.
>>
>> I've been thinking about this for about a month now and I really think
it's
>> time for Prime95 to get a facelift.  Now, I was thinking just along the
>> lines of having a better GUI.  I.E.  Have a percentage complete bar
instead
>> of showing that in text.  Maybe a log window for those who want it.
Things
>> like that.
>>
>> However, for those who wanted something pretty, we could probably do that
>> without using up a lot of CPU time.
>>
>> At the very least though, IMHO, Prime95 needs a facelift.  Comments?
>>
>> G-Man
>>
>> P.S.  George - do you use the same codebase for win31 or is Prime95
really
>> meant only for 32 bit operating systems?  What compiler do you use?
>>
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>
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Re: Mersenne: GIMPS in Science News

[Jeff Woods]

At 01:29 PM 3/30/00 -0500, you wrote:

Is it that the search for prime numbers is perceived to be the domain of
>>geeks while everybody is supposed to be excited about extra-terrestrial
>>life?

The possibility of LGM is "sexy" in a pop-culture kind of way.   Prime 
numbers are only "sexy" to a handful of people.

How many movies can you name about LGM?

Now, how many about prime numbers, other than "Contact" (which was also, in 
a way, about LGM)?


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Re: Mersenne: GIMPS in Science News

[Stefan Struiker]

TeamM:

I will be more detailed later, once I collect and refine my thoughts, but at
this point let me say that I think it is the group attracted to SETI, and the
Area 51, uh, "enthusiasts," who need some work, not the MPrime interface.

More to come,

Regards,
Stefanovic

Geoffrey Faivre-Malloy wrote:

> > The main reason I’ve heard for people liking the Seti project is
> > because the screen saver looks pretty.
>
> I've been thinking about this for about a month now and I really think it's
> time for Prime95 to get a facelift.  Now, I was thinking just along the
> lines of having a better GUI.  I.E.  Have a percentage complete bar instead
> of showing that in text.  Maybe a log window for those who want it.  Things
> like that.
>
> However, for those who wanted something pretty, we could probably do that
> without using up a lot of CPU time.
>
> At the very least though, IMHO, Prime95 needs a facelift.  Comments?
>
> G-Man
>
> P.S.  George - do you use the same codebase for win31 or is Prime95 really
> meant only for 32 bit operating systems?  What compiler do you use?
>
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Re: Mersenne: GIMPS in Science News

[Nathan Russell]

>From: "Halliday, Ian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To: Aaron Blosser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>CC: "Mersenne@Base. Com" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: Re: Mersenne: GIMPS in Science News
>Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 20:29:22 +1200
>
>This brings to mind a question I have been considering for a while: Why
>should it be that the seti@home project has collected such a large
>number of downloads while gimps has only around 10,000.
>Is it that the search for prime numbers is perceived to be the domain of
>geeks while everybody is supposed to be excited about extra-terrestrial
>life?

There are 38 Mersenne primes known, and almost certainly more unknown.  We 
haven't found a single extraterrestrial life form.  I would think that that 
alone would give some evidence of the chances involved.  For that matter, 
every machine working on GIMPS contributes to the effort, whereas most SETI 
work is duplicated unnecessarily.  I can name five Mersenne primes in 
decimal form offhand: 3, 7, 31, 127, 8191.  I would like to challenge any 
SETI supporter to name even one lifeform that they (or any previous effort - 
all the ones I named were previous efforts) have found.  I hope this doesn't 
start /another/ onlist flamewar...  (sigh)

>Or is it because of the underlying perception that mathematics is hard
>and boring?
>I've invited some of my real-life friends and colleagues to join gimps,
>but without success.

I wonder if telling them about the possibility of finding hardware errors 
would help.  If we can each get all our friends to run one 5-30 day 
double-check each, it'll make a huge difference.

Some of these people had downloaded the seti client
>and run it for a while but didn't seem to be impressed by its
>performance or results.
>I'm much more excited about gimps, and believe that I am much more
>likely to find a certain Mersenne prime than evidence about
>extra-terrestrial life (which would still only be a speculation even
>so).
>
>Humour me and visit http://www.geocities.com/intellectualsuicide/
>
>Regards,
>
>Ian

Regards,
Nathan
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RE: Mersenne: GIMPS in Science News

[Geoffrey Faivre-Malloy]

> The main reason I’ve heard for people liking the Seti project is
> because the screen saver looks pretty.

I've been thinking about this for about a month now and I really think it's
time for Prime95 to get a facelift.  Now, I was thinking just along the
lines of having a better GUI.  I.E.  Have a percentage complete bar instead
of showing that in text.  Maybe a log window for those who want it.  Things
like that.

However, for those who wanted something pretty, we could probably do that
without using up a lot of CPU time.

At the very least though, IMHO, Prime95 needs a facelift.  Comments?

G-Man

P.S.  George - do you use the same codebase for win31 or is Prime95 really
meant only for 32 bit operating systems?  What compiler do you use?

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Re: Mersenne: GIMPS in Science News

[James Escamilla]

The main reason I’ve heard for people liking the Seti project is
because the screen saver looks pretty.

--- "Halliday, Ian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> This brings to mind a question I have been considering for a while:
> Why
> should it be that the seti@home project has collected such a large
> number of downloads while gimps has only around 10,000.
> Is it that the search for prime numbers is perceived to be the domain
> of
> geeks while everybody is supposed to be excited about
> extra-terrestrial
> life?
> Or is it because of the underlying perception that mathematics is
> hard
> and boring?
> I've invited some of my real-life friends and colleagues to join
> gimps,
> but without success. Some of these people had downloaded the seti
> client
> and run it for a while but didn't seem to be impressed by its
> performance or results.
> I'm much more excited about gimps, and believe that I am much more
> likely to find a certain Mersenne prime than evidence about
> extra-terrestrial life (which would still only be a speculation even
> so).
> 
> Humour me and visit http://www.geocities.com/intellectualsuicide/
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Ian
> --
> Aaron Blosser wrote:
> 
> > At my current job, I manage the SMS stuff for our huge network. 
> Out of
> > curiousity, I ran a query to see if anyone had prime95.exe or
> ntprime.exe.
> > Nope...none.  Then I did a search for [EMAIL PROTECTED] and found a
> bunch...
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Re: Mersenne: GIMPS in Science News

[Halliday, Ian]

This brings to mind a question I have been considering for a while: Why
should it be that the seti@home project has collected such a large
number of downloads while gimps has only around 10,000.
Is it that the search for prime numbers is perceived to be the domain of
geeks while everybody is supposed to be excited about extra-terrestrial
life?
Or is it because of the underlying perception that mathematics is hard
and boring?
I've invited some of my real-life friends and colleagues to join gimps,
but without success. Some of these people had downloaded the seti client
and run it for a while but didn't seem to be impressed by its
performance or results.
I'm much more excited about gimps, and believe that I am much more
likely to find a certain Mersenne prime than evidence about
extra-terrestrial life (which would still only be a speculation even
so).

Humour me and visit http://www.geocities.com/intellectualsuicide/

Regards,

Ian
--
Aaron Blosser wrote:

> At my current job, I manage the SMS stuff for our huge network.  Out of
> curiousity, I ran a query to see if anyone had prime95.exe or ntprime.exe.
> Nope...none.  Then I did a search for [EMAIL PROTECTED] and found a bunch...
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RE: Mersenne: GIMPS in Science News

[Aaron Blosser]

>Sorry to be slow with this - I'm behind in my reading.
>
>GIMPS was mentioned favorably in an article in the 4 March 2000 issue of
>"Science News" under the title "Great Computations."  It includes
>commentary on a variety of distributed computing projects, and in addition
>to GIMPS it mentions George's software, our recent prime discoveries,
>Scott's Entropia.com, and even some contrite advice from Aaron.
>
>The entire article is presently online at
>.  Thought you'all might be
>interested in the coverage.

I actually meant to forward this info on a long time ago. :)  Ivars actually
wrote me a while back and asked me if I had any comments I'd want to include,
so that's where my statements come from.

I just can't stress enough the importance of asking permission.

At my current job, I manage the SMS stuff for our huge network.  Out of
curiousity, I ran a query to see if anyone had prime95.exe or ntprime.exe.
Nope...none.  Then I did a search for [EMAIL PROTECTED] and found a bunch...
Sigh...  I wonder what I'd find if I did a search for the distributed.net
client executables?  Hmm...

But, this just goes to show that in any company of a certain size, you will
have people who install their own software onto their PC's.  Well, my case was
just a matter of degree, but still, the principle is the same:  if the machine
isn't yours, ask permission first.

Aaron

PS - the article was incorrect in stating that I was arrested...I was never
actually arrested. :)  Just wanted to clarify that. :)

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