Re: [mb-style] Internet Archive / Live Music Archive, possible url-artist AR?

[Aurélien Mino]

Brian Schweitzer wrote:
> I'm going to be unavailable for most of the next month, so I'm 
> throwing this out as a potential AR, for the moment, rather than RFC 
> it while I'm not around to help with the RFC.  :)  If there's no 
> objection to it, I'll RFC it at the beginning of next month, when I'm 
> going to be much more available.
>
> For anyone who hasn't run into it before, there's a really nice 
> collection of free music at archive.org .  It's a 
> partnership of archive.org  with etree, and no 
> music is allowed to get posted there without permission from the 
> artist; basically, using archive.org  instead of 
> some other means, such as torrents, to share authorized bootleg 
> recordings in a not-for-profit way.  http://www.archive.org/details/etree
>
> There is a growing list of bands and soloists (currently 3509, the 
> latest added only 6 days ago - 
> http://www.archive.org/details/TheBremens ) who have explicitly 
> granted permission for recordings to be listed.  That list is 
> available at http://www.archive.org/audio/etree-band-showall.php
>
> What I would suggest is the addition of an artist level AR, similar to 
> the release-url AR that lets us link a release to a place it can be 
> downloaded for free.
>
> This does not run into the problems of some other sites, where urls 
> would really be just urls with search terms, though those also are 
> possible at archive.org , and any AR like the one 
> I'm suggesting would have to specify that it should use the urls for 
> specific artists in the collection, as listed in the list at 
> http://www.archive.org/audio/etree-band-showall.php , so 
> http://www.archive.org/details/AndrewBird and not 
> http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=subject%3A"Andrew Bird" or 
> http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=andrew bird .
>
> Not only does this provide a perhaps quite useful resource for fans of 
> an artist, but it also sometimes can provide other useful links or 
> information, such as track times for a particular recording listed 
> there, or links, such as the one on the Andrew Bird example, linking 
> to his homepage.
>
> Would there be any objection to the addition of an AR for this?  
> "Artist has a collection of authorized bootleg recordings available 
> for download at archive.org "?
>
It seems to be specific, and we can't increase ARs types for all 
initiative. A balance should be found, because having too much ARs types 
will be confusing.

A FreeDownloadRelationshipType, maybe with a {live} attribute, should do 
the job here.

- Aurélien // murdos

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[mb-style] Internet Archive / Live Music Archive, possible url-artist AR?

[Brian Schweitzer]

I'm going to be unavailable for most of the next month, so I'm throwing this
out as a potential AR, for the moment, rather than RFC it while I'm not
around to help with the RFC.  :)  If there's no objection to it, I'll RFC it
at the beginning of next month, when I'm going to be much more available.

For anyone who hasn't run into it before, there's a really nice collection
of free music at archive.org.  It's a partnership of archive.org with etree,
and no music is allowed to get posted there without permission from the
artist; basically, using archive.org instead of some other means, such as
torrents, to share authorized bootleg recordings in a not-for-profit way.
http://www.archive.org/details/etree

There is a growing list of bands and soloists (currently 3509, the latest
added only 6 days ago - http://www.archive.org/details/TheBremens ) who have
explicitly granted permission for recordings to be listed.  That list is
available at http://www.archive.org/audio/etree-band-showall.php

What I would suggest is the addition of an artist level AR, similar to the
release-url AR that lets us link a release to a place it can be downloaded
for free.

This does not run into the problems of some other sites, where urls would
really be just urls with search terms, though those also are possible at
archive.org, and any AR like the one I'm suggesting would have to specify
that it should use the urls for specific artists in the collection, as
listed in the list at http://www.archive.org/audio/etree-band-showall.php ,
so http://www.archive.org/details/AndrewBird and not
http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=subject%3A"Andrew Bird" or
http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=andrew bird .

Not only does this provide a perhaps quite useful resource for fans of an
artist, but it also sometimes can provide other useful links or information,
such as track times for a particular recording listed there, or links, such
as the one on the Andrew Bird example, linking to his homepage.

Would there be any objection to the addition of an AR for this?  "Artist has
a collection of authorized bootleg recordings available for download at
archive.org"?

Brian

PS: Just an interesting info link:

Shows added to the LMA, per month, for the past 48 months:
http://www.archive.org/about/graphs.php?type=showsPerMonth
(an average of around 1100 per month currently)
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Re: [mb-style] DiscogsRelationshipType & Discogs masters

[Chad Wilson]

On 5/05/2009 5:45 a.m., Fred Marchee wrote:
> My thoughts exactly, the links to Discogs doesn't add any info to me
> other than pictures so why bother?
>
> Fred (fred576)
>
> Age Bosma wrote:
>
>> Aurélien Mino wrote:
>>
>>  
>>> Should we accept links from our current releases to both Discogs masters 
>>> and Discogs releases?
>>>
>>>
>> What about stop accepting Discogs links completely? Do we really need
>> them in the first place?
>> Linking to releases on Wikipedia pages at least provides additional
>> value (for now), Discogs does not imho. All info that can be stored in
>> Discogs can, and should, be stored in MB so why link to them? We are not
>> linking to other similar sites either.
>>
>> Yours,
>>
>> Age / Prodoc
>>
>>  
As I said in my email above, for some people they do actually add data. 
Some people using the URLs to pull cover art and genre information from 
the web service using plugins and the discogs URLs. The reason they 
should be there is to allow such specific (MB release <-> equivalent 
Discogs release) linking and ad hoc "mash ups" of the data if people so 
choose. There's clearly utility in this even if not everyone uses it.

Chad

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Re: [mb-style] "has a BBC page at" AR

[Paul C. Bryan]

I wonder if there would be a web-way to automagically maintain links?
For example, if they had a tag on a page that means "has meaningful
content," could we automatically traverse their associated pages to
determine what to link up to our own? Would there ever be a reason we'd
need to maintain these links manually?

Secondary question, if they display cover art or artist images for
inter-linkages, could we use them on MB?

So, +1 from me for the AR.

On Mon, 2009-05-04 at 15:50 -0700, Robert Kaye wrote:
> Hi!
> 
> The BBC is wondering if we would be up for adding a "has a BBC page  
> at" AR type? Even though both the BBC and MB speak the same set of  
> identifiers it can be useful to know which set of MBIDs actually  
> resolve to meaningful content at the BBC.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> --
> 
> --ruaok  A village in Texas has its fool back!
> 
> Robert Kaye -- r...@eorbit.net --http://mayhem-chaos.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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[mb-style] "has a BBC page at" AR

[Robert Kaye]

Hi!

The BBC is wondering if we would be up for adding a "has a BBC page  
at" AR type? Even though both the BBC and MB speak the same set of  
identifiers it can be useful to know which set of MBIDs actually  
resolve to meaningful content at the BBC.

Thoughts?

--

--ruaok  A village in Texas has its fool back!

Robert Kaye -- r...@eorbit.net --http://mayhem-chaos.net





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Re: [mb-style] DiscogsRelationshipType & Discogs masters

[Brian Schweitzer]

On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 5:45 PM, Fred Marchee  wrote:

> My thoughts exactly, the links to Discogs doesn't add any info to me
> other than pictures so why bother?
>
> Fred (fred576)
>
> Age Bosma wrote:
> > Aurélien Mino wrote:
> >
> >> Should we accept links from our current releases to both Discogs masters
> and Discogs releases?
> >>
> >
> > What about stop accepting Discogs links completely? Do we really need
> > them in the first place?
> > Linking to releases on Wikipedia pages at least provides additional
> > value (for now), Discogs does not imho. All info that can be stored in
> > Discogs can, and should, be stored in MB so why link to them? We are not
> > linking to other similar sites either.
> >
> > Yours,
> >
> > Age / Prodoc
> >
>

The Discogs links don't add a lot of value now, true, but there's some
things that they can do, moving forward, in terms of adding additional data
and spotting errors in existing data, which I've been playing with a little
bit on over in tt server code.  I really wouldn't suggest disabling their
being able to be added, even if they seem relatively unuseful at the moment
on the current server code.

Brian
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Re: [mb-style] DiscogsRelationshipType & Discogs masters

[Fred Marchee]

My thoughts exactly, the links to Discogs doesn't add any info to me 
other than pictures so why bother?

Fred (fred576)

Age Bosma wrote:
> Aurélien Mino wrote:
>   
>> Should we accept links from our current releases to both Discogs masters and 
>> Discogs releases?
>> 
>
> What about stop accepting Discogs links completely? Do we really need
> them in the first place?
> Linking to releases on Wikipedia pages at least provides additional
> value (for now), Discogs does not imho. All info that can be stored in
> Discogs can, and should, be stored in MB so why link to them? We are not
> linking to other similar sites either.
>
> Yours,
>
> Age / Prodoc
>   

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Re: [mb-style] DiscogsRelationshipType & Discogs masters

[Age Bosma]

Aurélien Mino wrote:
> Should we accept links from our current releases to both Discogs masters and 
> Discogs releases?

What about stop accepting Discogs links completely? Do we really need
them in the first place?
Linking to releases on Wikipedia pages at least provides additional
value (for now), Discogs does not imho. All info that can be stored in
Discogs can, and should, be stored in MB so why link to them? We are not
linking to other similar sites either.

Yours,

Age / Prodoc

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Re: [mb-style] DiscogsRelationshipType & Discogs masters

[Brian Schweitzer]

On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 12:02 PM, Aurélien Mino  wrote:

>
> - "Brian Schweitzer"  a écrit :
>
> >
> > Note, I've not talked to luks to find out if release groups will be
> > able to have ARs independant from releases, but given that release
> > groups are coming this month ( http://blog.musicbrainz.org/?p=385 ),
> > +1 to simply updating our concepts in that AR, ie, the
> >
> > Discogs master<-> MB release-group
> > and Discogs release<-> MB NGS release (currently release-event)?
> >
> > as murdos suggested. That just makes sense to me. :)
> >
>
> The problem, as I was mentioning earlier, is that the first implementation
> of release-groups which are coming this month won't support ARs for
> release-group.
>
> Of course it will be available for NGS (with independent ARs for release
> and release-group), but NGS release is not planned before September.
>
> So my question is: what do you do meanwhile?
>
> - Aurélien // murdos
>

Personally, I think there's a LOT of data, not just the discogs AR, which
will need to be updated following the NGS release.  There'll be all the
workaround artists needing to be split, various ARs to workaround artists to
be corrected, Wikipedia urls that should be linked to a RG or release, but
are linked to the wrong type, etc.  Given our history of how long some RFCs
take to actually get passed, perhaps we should just accept Discogs links to
either Discogs RGs or releases, for the moment, deal with the RFCs to change
whatever needs changing (to update to Discog's having added RGs, and to
update everything on our end to the NGS schema) over this summer, and leave
cleaning up all those links until the NGS release?  Worst case, unless
someone goes on a huge Discogs-linking kick this summer, the number of
Discogs ARs added over the next 3 1/2 months likely won't be more than just
a few hundred extra for us to clean up when we clean up the other several
thousands already in the database...

Brian
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Re: [mb-style] DiscogsRelationshipType & Discogs masters

[Aurélien Mino]

- "Brian Schweitzer"  a écrit :

> 
> Note, I've not talked to luks to find out if release groups will be
> able to have ARs independant from releases, but given that release
> groups are coming this month ( http://blog.musicbrainz.org/?p=385 ),
> +1 to simply updating our concepts in that AR, ie, the
> 
> Discogs master<-> MB release-group
> and Discogs release<-> MB NGS release (currently release-event)?
> 
> as murdos suggested. That just makes sense to me. :)
> 

The problem, as I was mentioning earlier, is that the first implementation of 
release-groups which are coming this month won't support ARs for release-group.

Of course it will be available for NGS (with independent ARs for release and 
release-group), but NGS release is not planned before September.

So my question is: what do you do meanwhile?

- Aurélien // murdos

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Re: [mb-style] DiscogsRelationshipType & Discogs masters

[Brian Schweitzer]

On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 9:06 AM, Chad Wilson  wrote:

> On 4/05/2009 7:51 p.m., Aurélien Mino wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > As some of you already know, Discogs has recently introduced ([1]) the
> concept of 'master release' which corresponds to what we name
> 'release-group'.
> >
> > Since we don't yet have release-group, and since our first implementation
> of release-group won't have relationships for this entity, I'm wondering how
> we should handle the links to Dicogs masters.
> >
> > Should we accept links from our current releases to both Discogs masters
> and Discogs releases?
> > And then automatically filter and move them when migrating data to NGS:
> > Discogs master<->  MB release-group
> > and Discogs release<->  MB NGS release (currently release-event)?
> >
> > Note that there are already some pending edits which add links to Discogs
> masters.
> >
> > - Aurélien // murdos
> >
> > [1] http://www.discogs.com/help/forums/topic/18690
> Personally, no, I don't think it is appropriate to link an MB release to
> a Discogs master. They seem semantically different concepts, and it
> doesn't really make sense to me to allow them to be linked until we have
> a similar concept?
>
> Note that there may be software/plugins currently using the Discogs
> release URLs to make queries to the Discogs web service for artwork or
> other stuff - wouldn't this potentially break with the Masters URLs?
>
> Chad / voice
>
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Note, I've not talked to luks to find out if release groups will be able to
have ARs independant from releases, but given that release groups are coming
this month ( http://blog.musicbrainz.org/?p=385 ), +1 to simply updating our
concepts in that AR,  ie, the

 Discogs master<->  MB release-group
  and Discogs release<->  MB NGS release (currently release-event)?

as murdos suggested.  That just makes sense to me.  :)

Brian
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Re: [mb-style] DiscogsRelationshipType & Discogs masters

[Chad Wilson]

On 4/05/2009 7:51 p.m., Aurélien Mino wrote:
> Hi,
>
> As some of you already know, Discogs has recently introduced ([1]) the 
> concept of 'master release' which corresponds to what we name 'release-group'.
>
> Since we don't yet have release-group, and since our first implementation of 
> release-group won't have relationships for this entity, I'm wondering how we 
> should handle the links to Dicogs masters.
>
> Should we accept links from our current releases to both Discogs masters and 
> Discogs releases?
> And then automatically filter and move them when migrating data to NGS:
> Discogs master<->  MB release-group
> and Discogs release<->  MB NGS release (currently release-event)?
>
> Note that there are already some pending edits which add links to Discogs 
> masters.
>
> - Aurélien // murdos
>
> [1] http://www.discogs.com/help/forums/topic/18690
Personally, no, I don't think it is appropriate to link an MB release to 
a Discogs master. They seem semantically different concepts, and it 
doesn't really make sense to me to allow them to be linked until we have 
a similar concept?

Note that there may be software/plugins currently using the Discogs 
release URLs to make queries to the Discogs web service for artwork or 
other stuff - wouldn't this potentially break with the Masters URLs?

Chad / voice

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[mb-style] DiscogsRelationshipType & Discogs masters

[Aurélien Mino]

Hi,

As some of you already know, Discogs has recently introduced ([1]) the concept 
of 'master release' which corresponds to what we name 'release-group'.

Since we don't yet have release-group, and since our first implementation of 
release-group won't have relationships for this entity, I'm wondering how we 
should handle the links to Dicogs masters.

Should we accept links from our current releases to both Discogs masters and 
Discogs releases?
And then automatically filter and move them when migrating data to NGS: 
Discogs master <-> MB release-group 
and Discogs release <-> MB NGS release (currently release-event)?

Note that there are already some pending edits which add links to Discogs 
masters.

- Aurélien // murdos

[1] http://www.discogs.com/help/forums/topic/186906

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