Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Don Redman]

On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 20:54:18 +0100, Björn Krombholz wrote:


On 1/15/06, Schika <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Sony Music's sublabel Sony Computer Entertainment Europe ->
http://www.discogs.com/label/Sony+Computer+Entertainment+Europe <-
released in example the Wipeout PS2 Game & Soundtracks for *Europe*.


According to amazon.de the wipeout soundtrack is an import from the UK
(they say GB to be correct). They don't import identical releases, so
even if there was a UK _and_ a non-UK release, it would be wrong to
stick EU to either of those two.


Another example is the DJ-Mixed album from Ken Ishii "Mix-Up Volume 3",
Sony Music Entertainment released a version for Japan -> Cat #: SRCS
8053 <- and one version for Europe -> Cat #: 486794 2 <- under their
sublabel Sony Techno (S3).


It's the same, but the other way around. amazon.co.uk lists it as
import from Germany.


Now here I doubt that Amazon is a reliable source of information. It might  
very well be that Amazon only buys a release in Germany and ships it to  
all their distibution centers within the EC. Actualy from an economic  
point of view this makes perfect sence, since it would allow them to cut  
one big deal with a label.


  DonRedman



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Re: [mailing] Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Don Redman]

On Sun, 15 Jan 2006 10:38:03 +0100, Marco Sola wrote:


On Sunday, January 15, 2006 4:17 AM,
Tarragon M. Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


It seems roughly agreed that adding EU and other continents and
regions is not a good idea.


Sorry if I'm bothering but this statement IMHO should be:

"The majority remarked that the Release Country is the nation where an  
issue is released (on a date); for what others consider a continental  
release they should use the nation they like more. All this is because  
we think EU is not a nation."


The EU is not a nation, but it has many properties of nations (see  
Wikipedia). So, even if the ruling is that the list of release regions  
consists of nations (to which I disagree), it would make sense to add this  
very exceptional nearly-nation to the list. There is no other non-nation  
so nationlike on the whole planet. So this really could be a one-time  
exception.


  DonRedman

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Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Chris Bransden]

On 15/01/06, Björn Krombholz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> But isn't this a bit inconsistent? Listing the manufacturer country
> for 99% of the cases and the release country for the other 1%?

nooo, in discogs you *generally* list the label's country, not
manufacturer - they aren't always one and the same. infact often not
(most european cds are made in austria i believe, and most european
vinyls are made in the old eastern block countries).

but yes, *generally* the label's country will be the same as the
country it distrubutes to (i mean, the circumstances that would mean
this wasn't the case tend to be quite obscure). so yeah, generally if
you know a release was put out by "Super Records UK" (or as in this
example - Warp, a UK label) then it will most probably be a UK release
- at least initially. there may also be distribution to other areas
(eg, i would have though Warp distrubutes to the US? and at least
*part* of europe?)

and this is why labels are complicated :)

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Re: [mailing] Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Tarragon M. Allen]

On 15/1/06 4:38 PM +0100 Marco Sola <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On Sunday, January 15, 2006 11:24 AM,
Tarragon M. Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Adding an entry for the "European Union" is
debatable, and if we add this then we might need to add entries for
other zones, such as "Oceania" or "Asia" or "Africa".


I can't really believe you wrote this, I hope it's a mistake. Because you
have to know that EU is not a "zone", is *not* Europe, it's not a
continent, it's not Africa. Do you know Switzerland which is in the very
center of Eurpoe it's not in EU? Do you know we have the same laws? Do
you know that our laws are more similar than let's say Texas and Ohio
ones? Do you know we have the same currency?


No, what's probably more likely that I just don't really understand how the 
EU works, nor completely understand the entirety of the issue here. I 
apologise for my ignorance. I was hoping to try and bring a rather 
scattered discussion back to the main issues, but it seems I have failed. 
Nikki has taken this on (thank you), so I'll dip out of this debate now.


t
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Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Björn Krombholz]

On 1/15/06, Schika <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Tarragon M. Allen wrote:
> > It seems roughly agreed that adding EU and other continents and
> > regions is not a good idea.
> Sony Music's sublabel Sony Computer Entertainment Europe ->
> http://www.discogs.com/label/Sony+Computer+Entertainment+Europe <-
> released in example the Wipeout PS2 Game & Soundtracks for *Europe*.

According to amazon.de the wipeout soundtrack is an import from the UK
(they say GB to be correct). They don't import identical releases, so
even if there was a UK _and_ a non-UK release, it would be wrong to
stick EU to either of those two.

> Another example is the DJ-Mixed album from Ken Ishii "Mix-Up Volume 3",
> Sony Music Entertainment released a version for Japan -> Cat #: SRCS
> 8053 <- and one version for Europe -> Cat #: 486794 2 <- under their
> sublabel Sony Techno (S3).

It's the same, but the other way around. amazon.co.uk lists it as
import from Germany.

> Other labels doing such as well: North South orgin from England released
> in 1994 "The Third Chamber" from the group "Loop Guru", one version for
> the UK -> Cat #: LOOPCD001 <- and a "Europe only" version -> Cat #:
> GURU100CD <-.

Here you gave the division yourself.

There are thousands of cases where there are different releases for
the UK than for continental western Europe.

But only listing the country in those example isn't enough, as we list
it in combination with the release date (the first date when a release
is available in a country). Even when taking only the 3 countries UK,
Germany and France, I don't know any release that was put on the
market on the same day (especially for France there is often a gap of
a few weeks up to months).

> Someone mentioned "Discogs" is a good resource to find out the release
> country. That's true, cause a lot of the contributors are the artists
> and/or the label owners. But I have also to mention how we do it at discogs:
> Release country is in 99,% of all cases the country of the (Sub-)Label.

Well, as said, the label doesn't have much to do with the release but
the distributor. And there are a lot of mixed up release entries in
discogs.

Just one example:
http://www.discogs.com/release/530702 (listed as EU release with date
Sep 30th) is (according to the cat# intCDBong 35) the release, which
was not directly available in the UK, France and Belgium (at least).

The UK release (cat# CDBong 35) was available in the UK only (released
on Oct 3rd) is listed  at http://www.discogs.com/release/545503 is
correct.

The Belgium release is http://www.discogs.com/release/549853 (listed
as EU release) was put on market on Oct 3rd and was only released in
Belgium (and
probably Netherlands).

The French release (eintCDBong 35) came out about one month later and
is not listed on discogs.

> If Warp Records publish a new album - release country is U.K. - besides
> it is mentioned somewhere that it is released for a special area only,
> like the Warp Sampler: 1994, which was released only in Australia at
> Autechre's tour there.

But isn't this a bit inconsistent? Listing the manufacturer country
for 99% of the cases and the release country for the other 1%?


#Fuchs

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Re: [mailing] Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Marco Sola]

On Sunday, January 15, 2006 11:24 AM,
Tarragon M. Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Adding an entry for the "European Union" is
> debatable, and if we add this then we might need to add entries for
> other zones, such as "Oceania" or "Asia" or "Africa".

I can't really believe you wrote this, I hope it's a mistake. Because you have 
to know that EU is not a "zone", is *not* Europe, it's not a continent, it's 
not Africa. Do you know Switzerland which is in the very center of Eurpoe it's 
not in EU? Do you know we have the same laws? Do you know that our laws are 
more similar than let's say Texas and Ohio ones? Do you know we have the same 
currency?

Anyway, the only backdraw of not adding EU as release place is that you will 
have multiple release entries, at the most one for every union member. It's not 
really a problem for MB db but I think users still can't undersand why it's 
missing. 

Ciao

MArco

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Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Schika]

Chris B wrote:

> - Original Message - From: "Schika" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "MusicBrainz style discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 5:06 AM
> Subject: Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST
>
>> Sorry I can't agree here - do we have an agreement at all? I'm still for
>> adding "Europe" and "unknown" to the year / country fields. Someone
>> asked what label I was talking to, or asked for any examples to work
>> with:
>> Sony Music's sublabel Sony Computer Entertainment Europe ->
>> http://www.discogs.com/label/Sony+Computer+Entertainment+Europe <-
>> released in example the Wipeout PS2 Game & Soundtracks for *Europe*.
>
>
> these are all videogame CDs, not properly distributed music cds. the
> territories of release are different
>
> i don't have anything to say about your other examples, though :)

Take a look here -> http://musicbrainz.org/showalbum.html?albumid=60203
<- according to my reply to DonRedman's mail:

"As mentioned in my earlier reply: at discogs we set in general the release 
country to the same where the label is founded / located / based.
For example Sony is a worldwide operating company has sublabels in every 
sub-labels in every country (Sony Entertainement -COUNTRY-NAME-HERE-) and 
continent - like Sony Entertainment America (for North- & South-America) or 
Sony Entertainment Europe (for all European countries excl. Russia & Turkey). 
Every label and sub-label of Sony has it's own Cat-# are distributed in that 
area and so on..."

You may see that the release country of that album we have in the MB database 
is set to: US, which wouldn't be correct in this case.

However, yes they are videogame CD's with music on ... so? I could bring up a 
bunch a tiny labels which wouldn't say anything to the people here, therefore I 
brought up this example of a very well known Mayor label.

Schika

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Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Chris B]

- Original Message - 
From: "Schika" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "MusicBrainz style discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 5:06 AM
Subject: Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

Sorry I can't agree here - do we have an agreement at all? I'm still for
adding "Europe" and "unknown" to the year / country fields. Someone
asked what label I was talking to, or asked for any examples to work with:
Sony Music's sublabel Sony Computer Entertainment Europe ->
http://www.discogs.com/label/Sony+Computer+Entertainment+Europe <-
released in example the Wipeout PS2 Game & Soundtracks for *Europe*.


these are all videogame CDs, not properly distributed music cds. the 
territories of release are different


i don't have anything to say about your other examples, though :) 


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Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Schika]

Tarragon M. Allen wrote:

> On 15/1/06 9:15 AM +0100 Schika <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Sorry, but I guess we are talking into two different directions. To
>> avaid more confusion, could you do me and yourself a favour and read the
>> whole reply what I wrote again? Do I mention "made in the EU" is printed
>> on? To explain the example of Warp Recordings: made in UK & released in
>> Australia
>> Isn't it exactly the same you try to tell me?
>
>
> Yes, but I don't see how this has any relevance to the original
> request, which was to add "Europe" to the list of countries.

That's cause of quoting something/someone out of the _whole context_  :P

Schika
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Re: [mailing] Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Schika]

Don Redman wrote:

 No, there's a problem underlying: how do you define a release?
>>>
>>
 To me a release is the physical cd which is boild so to be sold in a
 market: a brasilian release has portuguese liner notes and a Eu
 reelase has what it is needed to be sold in EU. I mean, if the same
 identical phisical cd is sold in two different country, for me it's
 same release.
>>>
>>>
>>> A release is the combination of the "thing where the music is on" and
>>> the market were it is available. If it was only the physical CD then
>>> we wouldn't need release countries at all.
>>> So it's a combination of which record is available where and when. If
>>> "when " and "which" are the same for 2 records, then you can merge the
>>> where to a release area for this record.
>>
>>
>> Perfect. We have two idea of what a release is and I guess your is the
>> MB one.
>
>
> Yes, I think so. To be very precise, I think that a release of a
> record is  an _event_ on a _market_. A release is an economic entity.
>
> And the problem is that the recording industry and their marketers do
> not  follow clear rules for their division of markets. They do follow
> the  gregorian calender, therfore fixing the time of the event is easy
> and  standardized, but markets evolve.
>
> A few years ago, national borders and customs rules were strict enough
> to  allow us to say: A market is more or less equal to a nation state.
>
> But with globalization this gets tricky. If a record is released in 
> France, then anybody can move a ton of them over to Germany and sell
> them  there without having to deal with customs. So within the EU the
> national  boundaries do not define markets anymore.
>
> I believe that most record companies still divise their markets along
> the  lines of national boundaries. There are many reasons, like
> different  language etc, but it is not a necessity anymore.
>
> To be very precise the common market is currently called "European 
> Community", is a part of the European Union, and will be renamed to 
> "European Union" once the constitution gets ratified. It is the
> successor  of the "European Economic Community". The EEC is of
> historical interest  only. Since I do not think there were actual
> _releases_ for the whole EEC  market, we could skip it. The
> (sub-)continent Europe does not qualify as a  market at all.
>
> Now, is this a reason to add the EU (or currently EC) to the list of 
> markets?
>
> I am not sure. If we do, we would probably have to add the European 
> Economic Area (EEA) (between the EC, Norway, Iceland and
> Liechtenstein),  Mercosur, etc etc. Do we want that? Wikipedia is
> pretty strict and says  that we only have three single markets right
> now  ():
>  - European Community
>  - European Economic Area
>  - Caribbean Community single market
>
> OK that could help. Three new markets.
>
> However, nothing guarantees that record companies really make full use
> of  the common market. They might very well have terms or release that
> divide  the common market.
>
> It all boils down to this:
> Are there distributors which really _use_ the common market of the EU
> for  their releases? If the answer is yes, then we should add this
> market to  the list of release areas.
>
>   DonRedman

Seriously, this is the most productive mail I've read in this discussion
so far.

Indeed the industry and distributors don't care about national borders
and also a "Worldwide" entry would make sense - just think about
Net-(based)-Labels.

As mentioned in my earlier reply: at discogs we set in general the
release country to the same where the label is founded / located / based.
For example Sony is a worldwide operating company has sublabels in every
sub-labels in every country (Sony Entertainement -COUNTRY-NAME-HERE-)
and continent - like Sony Entertainment America (for North- &
South-America) or Sony Entertainment Europe (for all European countries
excl. Russia & Turkey). Every label and sub-label of Sony has it's own
Cat-# are distributed in that area and so on...

Schika
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Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Tarragon M. Allen]

On 15/1/06 9:15 AM +0100 Schika <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Sorry, but I guess we are talking into two different directions. To
avaid more confusion, could you do me and yourself a favour and read the
whole reply what I wrote again? Do I mention "made in the EU" is printed
on? To explain the example of Warp Recordings: made in UK & released in
Australia
Isn't it exactly the same you try to tell me?


Yes, but I don't see how this has any relevance to the original request, 
which was to add "Europe" to the list of countries. "Australia" and "UK" 
are not disputed entries!


At the moment I'm trying to guide this debate into some kind of resolution.

It seems to me that adding "Europe" isn't a good idea, based on the 
discussion here. Adding an entry for the "European Union" is debatable, and 
if we add this then we might need to add entries for other zones, such as 
"Oceania" or "Asia" or "Africa".


Adding "unknown" to both release year and release country is at least one 
thing, so far, that everyone can agree on.


t
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Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Tarragon M. Allen]

On 15/1/06 8:27 AM +0100 Schika <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

The further issues here is that, even though they might be released on
the  same day, they are arguably different releases. For example, the
U.K. release  probably doesn't have German (language) liner notes. This
is where the "it's  the European release" falls down.


Seriously, I don't have 1 release with german (language) liner notes,
even the german labels use english (language) notes on the booklets,
covers, label prints.

Schika


Ok, be that as it may, it doesn't mean that this situation doesn't exist. 
I'm certain that there are CDs released in non-English speaking EU 
countries that have non-English liner notes.


t
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Re: [mailing] Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Marco Sola]

On Sunday, January 15, 2006 4:17 AM,
Tarragon M. Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> It seems roughly agreed that adding EU and other continents and
> regions is not a good idea.

Sorry if I'm bothering but this statement IMHO should be:

"The majority remarked that the Release Country is the nation where an issue is 
released (on a date); for what others consider a continental release they 
should use the nation they like more. All this is because we think EU is not a 
nation."

Please correct me as needed and please officialize what you decide in some 
guide ASAP.

Of course I still think this is clearly wrong. I said this again just because 
recently some user that are opposing to SG5DR changes were blamed because they 
did not yelled their disagreement strong enough.

Ciao

(btw EU is not a continent)

MArco / Clutcher2

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Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Schika]

Tarragon M. Allen wrote:

> On 15/1/06 8:04 AM +0100 Schika <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Tarragon M. Allen wrote:
>>
>>> Also, the "made in" information printed on a CD is _not_ the
>>> distribution location, and quite often has no relation to the actual
>>> distribution of that CD.
>>
>>
>> If you had read my email, you'd see that I'm saying the same (Hint: Warp
>> Records example).
>
>
> And thus why it's inappropriate for a release (distribution) country.
> This was the general view: to not add "EU" to the country list just
> because it's printed on some CDs as "made in EU".
>
> Honestly, I'm not sure exactly what you're arguing about now.
>
> t

Sorry, but I guess we are talking into two different directions. To
avaid more confusion, could you do me and yourself a favour and read the
whole reply what I wrote again? Do I mention "made in the EU" is printed on?
To explain the example of Warp Recordings: made in UK & released in
Australia
Isn't it exactly the same you try to tell me?

Schika

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Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Schika]

Tarragon M. Allen wrote:

>On Monday 09 January 2006 15:07, Schika wrote:
>  
>
>>Björn Krombholz wrote:
>>
>>
>>>is we had some real examples that show that this, this and this
>>>releases has to be EU, I might be convinced that we really need it,
>>>but I don't see any examples that fit: a) it was released in every
>>>neation that is an EU member and b) it was released in all those
>>>nations on the same day.
>>>  
>>>
>>I don't see the problem with the release day. Very common example:
>>releases are pressed anywhere, let's say for this example "Germany",
>>delivered to the distributers. They ship the products into the several
>>countries and finally to the stores. And are open for sale - to the
>>public = release date - at a speciffic day.
>>The same way how Germany/UK/whatever releases are published at one day.
>>
>>
>
>The further issues here is that, even though they might be released on the 
>same day, they are arguably different releases. For example, the U.K. release 
>probably doesn't have German (language) liner notes. This is where the "it's 
>the European release" falls down.
>  
>
Seriously, I don't have 1 release with german (language) liner notes,
even the german labels use english (language) notes on the booklets,
covers, label prints.

Schika
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Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Tarragon M. Allen]

On 15/1/06 8:04 AM +0100 Schika <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Tarragon M. Allen wrote:


Also, the "made in" information printed on a CD is _not_ the
distribution location, and quite often has no relation to the actual
distribution of that CD.


If you had read my email, you'd see that I'm saying the same (Hint: Warp
Records example).


And thus why it's inappropriate for a release (distribution) country. This 
was the general view: to not add "EU" to the country list just because it's 
printed on some CDs as "made in EU".


Honestly, I'm not sure exactly what you're arguing about now.

t
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Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Schika]

Tarragon M. Allen wrote:

> Also, the "made in" information printed on a CD is _not_ the
> distribution location, and quite often has no relation to the actual
> distribution of that CD.

If you had read my email, you'd see that I'm saying the same (Hint: Warp
Records example).

Schika
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Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Tarragon M. Allen]

On 15/1/06 6:06 AM +0100 Schika <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Sorry I can't agree here - do we have an agreement at all? I'm still for
adding "Europe" and "unknown" to the year / country fields.


If you had read my email, you'd see that I'm saying that unknown should be 
added. This has been agreed on.



Sorry, if I missed something but I haven't read all the replies, cause
lack of time and not much at home.


Well, maybe you should go and read the replies then, considering you 
brought up the issue. The general view seems to be that trying to add 
wide-spread (and moving target) distribution regions will only cause more 
problems than it will solve. Also, the "made in" information printed on a 
CD is _not_ the distribution location, and quite often has no relation to 
the actual distribution of that CD.


t
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Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Schika]

Tarragon M. Allen wrote:

> On 28/12/05 12:38 AM + Nikki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> So, I suggest that we:
>> 1. Update the country list to include all of ISO 3166-1
>> 2. Change the DB to allow 4 character country codes
>> 3. Include ISO 3166-3 [1]
>> 4. Add the EU [2]
>> 5. Add worldwide/international using one of the user-defined codes [3]
>
>
> On 9/1/06 11:18 AM -0500 Rod Begbie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> So you should be able to enter "Released in 1989 in uknown countries".
>> I think the "allowing unknown country or year" option is the fix for
>> this, rather than adding continents as a "best guess" of release
>> country.
>
>
> Ok, debate on this topic has quieted down.
>
> I don't think there's any objections to adding a "unknown" to the year
> and country fields for release dates, and I'd like this to go ahead.
>
> It seems roughly agreed that adding EU and other continents and
> regions is not a good idea.
>
Sorry I can't agree here - do we have an agreement at all? I'm still for
adding "Europe" and "unknown" to the year / country fields. Someone
asked what label I was talking to, or asked for any examples to work with:
Sony Music's sublabel Sony Computer Entertainment Europe ->
http://www.discogs.com/label/Sony+Computer+Entertainment+Europe <-
released in example the Wipeout PS2 Game & Soundtracks for *Europe*.
Another example is the DJ-Mixed album from Ken Ishii "Mix-Up Volume 3",
Sony Music Entertainment released a version for Japan -> Cat #: SRCS
8053 <- and one version for Europe -> Cat #: 486794 2 <- under their
sublabel Sony Techno (S3).
Other labels doing such as well: North South orgin from England released
in 1994 "The Third Chamber" from the group "Loop Guru", one version for
the UK -> Cat #: LOOPCD001 <- and a "Europe only" version -> Cat #:
GURU100CD <-.

Someone mentioned "Discogs" is a good resource to find out the release
country. That's true, cause a lot of the contributors are the artists
and/or the label owners. But I have also to mention how we do it at discogs:
Release country is in 99,% of all cases the country of the (Sub-)Label.
If Warp Records publish a new album - release country is U.K. - besides
it is mentioned somewhere that it is released for a special area only,
like the Warp Sampler: 1994, which was released only in Australia at
Autechre's tour there.

Sorry, if I missed something but I haven't read all the replies, cause
lack of time and not much at home.

*Schika
*
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Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Tarragon M. Allen]

On 28/12/05 12:38 AM + Nikki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

So, I suggest that we:
1. Update the country list to include all of ISO 3166-1
2. Change the DB to allow 4 character country codes
3. Include ISO 3166-3 [1]
4. Add the EU [2]
5. Add worldwide/international using one of the user-defined codes [3]


On 9/1/06 11:18 AM -0500 Rod Begbie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

So you should be able to enter "Released in 1989 in uknown countries".
 I think the "allowing unknown country or year" option is the fix for
this, rather than adding continents as a "best guess" of release
country.


Ok, debate on this topic has quieted down.

I don't think there's any objections to adding a "unknown" to the year and 
country fields for release dates, and I'd like this to go ahead.


It seems roughly agreed that adding EU and other continents and regions is 
not a good idea.


There is agreement that cleaning up the country list and removing, hiding 
or making sub-menus for items some as "Metropolitan France" (as distinct 
from "France"). Do we really need that level of granularity anyway? Isn't 
"France" good enough in these cases?


Where there any decisions in the past on how to deal with countries that no 
longer exist?


t
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Re: [mailing] Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Björn Krombholz]

On 1/9/06, Marco Sola <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Il Monday, January 09, 2006 6:46 PM
> Björn Krombholz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ha scritto:
> > A release is the combination of the "thing where the music is on" and
> > the market were it is available. If it was only the physical CD then
> > we wouldn't need release countries at all.
> > So it's a combination of which record is available where and when. If
> > "when " and "which" are the same for 2 records, then you can merge the
> > where to a release area for this record.
> Perfect. We have two idea of what a release is and I guess your is the MB
> one. So, since I hope I'm not a complete idiot and that I misunderstood,
> probably MB needs to state better what is a release all around the website
> and the editing points.

I think, there is no MB definition of a release atm. I just described
my definition, and this is the one which seems to be most logical to
me.

The only release info MB currently has is the (country, date) tuple.
An album im MB can group different releases.

That's it. Country is a country where the release can be purchased,
and the date is the day when the release appeared on the market for
this country. I don't think, that this is really hard to understand.
:-/

> Let me say it again: people will *eventually* look at the cd and insert what
> they find there (and that will be "Made in EU" more and more often) and if
> you're lucky that will be someting compatibile with your idea of release.
> Then, for an very very little percentage of Artist, will come the fan that
> will check and edit release date as you like.

That's not what happens. I guess the majority of the release dates
come from sources like amazon, discogs, wikipedia, label sites, artist
homepages etc. All of those sources use the well defined release date,
not the production date nor the date of the copyright.

> But until that time at least you have something. Scare pople stating "DO NOT
> ADD MANIFACTURE DATE AND PLACE (that you can easily find written on cd) BUT
> WHERE AND WHEN WAS RELEASED IN SHOPS AND HOW AND WHY" and they will insert
> nothing.

Better nothing then wrong data. It's easy to fill the gaps in the DB,
but it's hard to find wrong information that needs to be fixed.

> IMHO we have to stick to what we can get.

Exactly. If we can't get a piece of information atm, then we can't get
it. Somewhen someone will come up and insert the missing piece.

> No, Anctartica is in this discussion just because there's a user that asked
> for EU since long time, he didn't get it and so he uses Anctartica so that
> he could recognize entries to revert when EU will eventually be added. It's
> a good idea and I used it too,

It's not a good idea. Actually it's a very bad one. It is wrong data,
that is quite anoying, not only for the direct users of the mb site,
but especially for third parties.

MB is not a puzzle that is currently in the phase of being put
together so that it will be ready someone. MB is something that is
used as a data source _now_, and that will never be complete. It
evolves, it mutates, it changes over time, but at and for any moment
in the past, present or future it should carry as much correct
information as possible.


#Fuchs

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Re: [mailing] Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Don Redman]

No, there's a problem underlying: how do you define a release?



To me a release is the physical cd which is boild so to be sold in a
market: a brasilian release has portuguese liner notes and a Eu
reelase has what it is needed to be sold in EU. I mean, if the same
identical phisical cd is sold in two different country, for me it's
same release.


A release is the combination of the "thing where the music is on" and
the market were it is available. If it was only the physical CD then
we wouldn't need release countries at all.
So it's a combination of which record is available where and when. If
"when " and "which" are the same for 2 records, then you can merge the
where to a release area for this record.


Perfect. We have two idea of what a release is and I guess your is the
MB one.


Yes, I think so. To be very precise, I think that a release of a record is  
an _event_ on a _market_. A release is an economic entity.


And the problem is that the recording industry and their marketers do not  
follow clear rules for their division of markets. They do follow the  
gregorian calender, therfore fixing the time of the event is easy and  
standardized, but markets evolve.


A few years ago, national borders and customs rules were strict enough to  
allow us to say: A market is more or less equal to a nation state.


But with globalization this gets tricky. If a record is released in  
France, then anybody can move a ton of them over to Germany and sell them  
there without having to deal with customs. So within the EU the national  
boundaries do not define markets anymore.


I believe that most record companies still divise their markets along the  
lines of national boundaries. There are many reasons, like different  
language etc, but it is not a necessity anymore.


To be very precise the common market is currently called "European  
Community", is a part of the European Union, and will be renamed to  
"European Union" once the constitution gets ratified. It is the successor  
of the "European Economic Community". The EEC is of historical interest  
only. Since I do not think there were actual _releases_ for the whole EEC  
market, we could skip it. The (sub-)continent Europe does not qualify as a  
market at all.


Now, is this a reason to add the EU (or currently EC) to the list of  
markets?


I am not sure. If we do, we would probably have to add the European  
Economic Area (EEA) (between the EC, Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein),  
Mercosur, etc etc. Do we want that? Wikipedia is pretty strict and says  
that we only have three single markets right now  
():

 - European Community
 - European Economic Area
 - Caribbean Community single market

OK that could help. Three new markets.

However, nothing guarantees that record companies really make full use of  
the common market. They might very well have terms or release that divide  
the common market.


It all boils down to this:
Are there distributors which really _use_ the common market of the EU for  
their releases? If the answer is yes, then we should add this market to  
the list of release areas.


  DonRedman


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Re: [mailing] Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Chris B]

- Original Message - 
From: "Marco Sola" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "MusicBrainz style discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 6:43 PM
Subject: Re: [mailing] Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST


Oh, c'mon: I'm tagging my cd and I have to remeber where it comes from? 
Marked as Import how? Where? How can I tell the salesman did't buy it from 
another country? It often happens, expecially in EU now that we have no no 
frontiers.


labels distribute releases all over the place. for example, a uk label may 
well distribute to most of europe, which makes that a european release 
(assumign the release date is the same for all areas, else split it up). if 
you see a release in a high street store, it's almost certainly been 
properly distributed there. shops won't go out of their way to import 
releases - it is too expensive. some of the bigger stores may have an 
'imports' section with choice cuts from overseas (traditionally japan - they 
have the only imports worth importing, really, as they often have bonus 
tracks).


it's unlikely you'll get 'caught out' by an import when inputting release 
dates.


Let me say it again: people will *eventually* look at the cd and insert 
what they find there (and that will be "Made in EU" more and more often) 
and if you're lucky that will be someting compatibile with your idea of 
release. Then, for an very very little percentage of Artist, will come the 
fan that will check and edit release date as you like.


i don't think this really happens, not in my experience here, anyway. 
perhaps it could be avoided if we had some pointers on the release entry 
page.


But until that time at least you have something. Scare pople stating "DO 
NOT ADD MANIFACTURE DATE AND PLACE (that you can easily find written on 
cd) BUT WHERE AND WHEN WAS RELEASED IN SHOPS AND HOW AND WHY" and they 
will insert nothing.


IMHO we have to stick to what we can get.


but it's useless info! i mean...there's no use to knowing where something 
was made - so the CD pressing plant was located in estonia...joy! but where 
it's released is good info, what users want to know. 


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Re: [mailing] Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Björn Krombholz]

On 1/9/06, Jan van Thiel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> So what strings of text actually indicate where it is released? I know
> that "Made in" doesn't say anything about the release country; bad
> choice of words. But:
> I've seen things like
> "(P) & (C) 1995"

Could be used with caution for the release date, but better
investigate other sources.

> "Made in Germany"

production in Germany, released in "unknown"

> "Printed in Europe"

booklet and cover production in Europe, released in "unknown"

> "(P) 1993 BMG Ariola Benelux  (C) 1993 Marketed by EVA. Distributed by
> BMG Ariola Benelux"

- (P)+(C) see above, might be the correct release year
- the distributor is the one responsible for releasing in an area were
he operates, so with further investigation this could lead to a
release country, I guess it's Netherlands and/or Belgium.


#Fuchs

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Re: [mailing] Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Chris B]

 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Marco 
  Sola 
  To: MusicBrainz style 
  discussion 
  Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 6:20 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [mailing] Re: [mb-style] 
  Release Country ReQUEST
  
   Original Message From: Chris BransdenTo: 
  MusicBrainz style discussionSent: Monday, January 09, 2006 5:29 
  PMSubject: Re: [mailing] Re: [mb-style] Release Country 
  ReQUEST> if a CD/record says "Made in 
  EU" or "Made in Europe", why shouldn't we> use that 
  information?> > because that's useless info :) no-one cares 
  where a CD/record is> made, unless we are building a database of 
  pressing plants. now where> a CD is released is interesting, and does 
  not neccesarily coincide> with where it is pressed   
  
   
  So, even if only 1-2% of MB entries has release date, you 
  would expect user to look around to find the exact release date for a given 
  country he wish to add?
   
  Let me broke your dreams: it's quite sure that almost all 
  actual release entries of MB are done by looking year and country of 
  manifacture on the cd. And from my part is more that 
enough.
then the info is useless, 
sorry. i could grab any handful of records from my collection and the country of 
manufacture will often be nowhere near the area of release. i believe most EU 
cds are made in austria, for example. if people are adding the manufacture 
location then we need to add a note on the release date prompt (just like we 
need to add a note about not putting live performance dates there! as i asked 
nicely early on mb-users that seems to have got lost in the mire...), else MBz 
steps further and further from any dreams of ever becoming a discography 
resource.
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Re: [mailing] Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Chris B]

that's just it - it is hardly ever printed on releases. the only way you can 
know is either knowledge of the particular label involved's distribution 
methods (makes it easier if they are called 'Virgin Records UK' or 
whatever) - discogs is a good resource for this - or from amazon.co.uk (or 
wherever you got it from, if they also do release dates).


- Original Message - 
From: "Jan van Thiel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "MusicBrainz style discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, January 09, 2006 5:21 PM
Subject: Re: [mailing] Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST



On 1/9/06, Chris Bransden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On 09/01/06, Jan van Thiel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I've read all 36 messages in this thread and have one thing to say: if
> a CD/record says "Made in EU" or "Made in Europe", why shouldn't we
> use that information?

because that's useless info :) no-one cares where a CD/record is made,
unless we are building a database of pressing plants. now where a CD is
released is interesting, and does not neccesarily coincide with where it 
is

pressed


So what strings of text actually indicate where it is released? I know
that "Made in" doesn't say anything about the release country; bad
choice of words. But:
I've seen things like
"(P) & (C) 1995"
"Made in Germany"
"Printed in Europe"
"(P) 1993 BMG Ariola Benelux  (C) 1993 Marketed by EVA. Distributed by
BMG Ariola Benelux"

I don't seem to be able to find anything concerning *release* 
dates/countries.


Jan

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Re: [mailing] Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Rod Begbie]

On 1/9/06, Marco Sola <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Perfect. We have two idea of what a release is and I guess your is the MB
> one.

"Release date" has a fairly standard meaning.  The date an item
(whether CD, book, DVD, computer game) was allowed to be put on-sale
in stores.  You can see that date in a lot of places.  I don't think
that's terribly cryptic or even negotiable definition.

> Oh, c'mon: I'm tagging my cd and I have to remeber where it comes from?

Are you "remembering" what date it was released on?

Even the (c) or (p) date on a CD doesn't tell you when it was
released.  CDs released in January often have copyrights dated the
previous year.

Rod.

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Re: [mailing] Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Marco Sola]

Il Monday, January 09, 2006 6:46 PM
Björn Krombholz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ha scritto:


No, there's a problem underlying: how do you define a release?



To me a release is the physical cd which is boild so to be sold in a
market: a brasilian release has portuguese liner notes and a Eu
reelase has what it is needed to be sold in EU. I mean, if the same
identical phisical cd is sold in two different country, for me it's
same release.


A release is the combination of the "thing where the music is on" and
the market were it is available. If it was only the physical CD then
we wouldn't need release countries at all.
So it's a combination of which record is available where and when. If
"when " and "which" are the same for 2 records, then you can merge the
where to a release area for this record.


Perfect. We have two idea of what a release is and I guess your is the MB 
one. So, since I hope I'm not a complete idiot and that I misunderstood, 
probably MB needs to state better what is a release all around the website 
and the editing points.



The problem is that users are tagging a cd that have in their hand
and the only info they have is "2002 made in EU": which country
should they use?


If they bought it in Italy and it's not an item marked as "import",
they add Italy. It's that simple.


Oh, c'mon: I'm tagging my cd and I have to remeber where it comes from? 
Marked as Import how? Where? How can I tell the salesman did't buy it from 
another country? It often happens, expecially in EU now that we have no no 
frontiers.


Let me say it again: people will *eventually* look at the cd and insert what 
they find there (and that will be "Made in EU" more and more often) and if 
you're lucky that will be someting compatibile with your idea of release. 
Then, for an very very little percentage of Artist, will come the fan that 
will check and edit release date as you like.


But until that time at least you have something. Scare pople stating "DO NOT 
ADD MANIFACTURE DATE AND PLACE (that you can easily find written on cd) BUT 
WHERE AND WHEN WAS RELEASED IN SHOPS AND HOW AND WHY" and they will insert 
nothing.


IMHO we have to stick to what we can get.


MB has two choice:
1) add EU as release contry, since it's a country, 2) let moderator
add EU releases as Anctartica, which is not a country.



3) Don't add EU and continue with the current policy.



No, 3 is not given, what will happen it's 2, like it or not.



I don't see it happen now. A user who adds "Antarctica" clearly
states, that he doesn't know the release country, which leads to the
addition of an "unknown" country, and not "EU".


No, Anctartica is in this discussion just because there's a user that asked 
for EU since long time, he didn't get it and so he uses Anctartica so that 
he could recognize entries to revert when EU will eventually be added. It's 
a good idea and I used it too, knowing for sure we're not messing up data 
since we will never see an Anctartica release. Surely not a release in your 
way of thinking: is there any shop in Anctartica?


Ciao

MArco



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Re: [mailing] Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Marco Sola]

 Original Message From: Chris BransdenTo: 
MusicBrainz style discussionSent: Monday, January 09, 2006 5:29 
PMSubject: Re: [mailing] Re: [mb-style] Release Country 
ReQUEST> if a CD/record says "Made in EU" 
or "Made in Europe", why shouldn't we> use that information?> 
> because that's useless info :) no-one cares where a CD/record 
is> made, unless we are building a database of pressing plants. now 
where> a CD is released is interesting, and does not neccesarily 
coincide> with where it is pressed   
 
So, even if only 1-2% of MB entries has release date, you 
would expect user to look around to find the exact release date for a given 
country he wish to add?
 
Let me broke your dreams: it's quite sure that almost all 
actual release entries of MB are done by looking year and country of manifacture 
on the cd. And from my part is more that enough.
 
Ciao
 
MArco / ClutchEr2
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Re: [mailing] Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Björn Krombholz]

On 1/9/06, Marco Sola <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Il Monday, January 09, 2006 5:22 AM
> Björn Krombholz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ha scritto:
> > Well, the ongoing discussion shows, that it is not, because it is not
> > just a matter of simply adding EU.
> Why? I still can't see what is the matter in adding it.

Because we need to tell the users, in which cases they must and in
which they must not use it.

> No, there's a problem underlying: how do you define a release?
> To me a release is the physical cd which is boild so to be sold in a market:
> a brasilian release has portuguese liner notes and a Eu reelase has what it
> is needed to be sold in EU. I mean, if the same identical phisical cd is
> sold in two different country, for me it's same release.

A release is the combination of the "thing where the music is on" and
the market were it is available. If it was only the physical CD then
we wouldn't need release countries at all.

So it's a combination of which record is available where and when. If
"when " and "which" are the same for 2 records, then you can merge the
where to a release area for this record.

> > 2. Where is the problem in adding existing countries as we do now?
> The problem is that users are tagging a cd that have in their hand and the
> only info they have is "2002 made in EU": which country should they use?

If they bought it in Italy and it's not an item marked as "import",
they add Italy. It's that simple. That might not be complete, but it's
not incorrect. You can add release data for different countries later,
if you like.

The "made in" leads to wrong conclusions. For example a lot of older
Depeche Mode records where made in France, although the release was
only sold in Germany. Releasing an item is not part of the production
but the distribution process.

> >> MB has two choice:
> >> 1) add EU as release contry, since it's a country, 2) let moderator
> >> add EU releases as Anctartica, which is not a country.
> > 3) Don't add EU and continue with the current policy.
> No, 3 is not given, what will happen it's 2, like it or not.

I don't see it happen now. A user who adds "Antarctica" clearly
states, that he doesn't know the release country, which leads to the
addition of an "unknown" country, and not "EU".

If a user knows, that the CD he just purchased was released in France,
but he sees "made in the EU" on the cover and doesn't know how to
handle this, then it's a problem of missing documentation, which
should tells him that it is fine to add France as the release country
in this case.


#Fuchs

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Re: [mailing] Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Jan van Thiel]

On 1/9/06, Chris Bransden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 09/01/06, Jan van Thiel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I've read all 36 messages in this thread and have one thing to say: if
> > a CD/record says "Made in EU" or "Made in Europe", why shouldn't we
> > use that information?
>
> because that's useless info :) no-one cares where a CD/record is made,
> unless we are building a database of pressing plants. now where a CD is
> released is interesting, and does not neccesarily coincide with where it is
> pressed

So what strings of text actually indicate where it is released? I know
that "Made in" doesn't say anything about the release country; bad
choice of words. But:
I've seen things like
"(P) & (C) 1995"
"Made in Germany"
"Printed in Europe"
"(P) 1993 BMG Ariola Benelux  (C) 1993 Marketed by EVA. Distributed by
BMG Ariola Benelux"

I don't seem to be able to find anything concerning *release* dates/countries.

Jan

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Re: [mailing] Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Chris Bransden]

On 09/01/06, Jan van Thiel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi,I've read all 36 messages in this thread and have one thing to say: ifa CD/record says "Made in EU" or "Made in Europe", why shouldn't weuse that information?because that's useless info :) no-one cares where a CD/record is made, unless we are building a database of pressing plants. now where a CD is released is interesting, and does not neccesarily coincide with where it is pressed
eg, the vast majority of european independent record labels press their vinyl in old eastern block countries, as they do it cheapest, but no one can, or indeed wants to buy these releases over there.
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Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Rod Begbie]

On 1/7/06, Björn Krombholz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The first to cases could be solved by adding "unknown" as valid values
> to both year and country.

I think this is the best option.  If you don't know that where a CD
was released, but you know it was released in 1995, you should be able
to enter that.

Rod.

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Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Rod Begbie]

On 1/9/06, Don Redman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Muddy Waters - Rollin' Stone
> (p) + (c) Green Line Records 1989. Made in the E.E.C.

So you should be able to enter "Released in 1989 in uknown countries".
 I think the "allowing unknown country or year" option is the fix for
this, rather than adding continents as a "best guess" of release
country.

Rod.

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Re: [mailing] Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Rod Begbie]

On 1/9/06, Jan van Thiel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I've read all 36 messages in this thread and have one thing to say: if
> a CD/record says "Made in EU" or "Made in Europe", why shouldn't we
> use that information?

Because that only tells you where a CD was pressed, not where it was released.

Rod.

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Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Don Redman]

On Mon, 09 Jan 2006 12:56:00 +0100, Simon Reinhardt wrote:

I think this debate is getting ridiculous. However, here is an example off  
my CD shelf that MB should somehow be able to deal with:


Muddy Waters - Rollin' Stone
(p) + (c) Green Line Records 1989. Made in the E.E.C.
Cat# CD3GLP 460
EAN: 8481502572

I have found no trace of Green Line Records on the net. They do  
compilations of old blues recordings.


I know for sure that stuff from them can be bought at least in Germany and  
France. I thought I had seen a hint that they were based in Italy  
somewhere, but cannot find it.
The liner notes contain nothing but the tracklist and the copyright notice  
in English.


  DonRedman

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Re: [mailing] Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Matthew Exon]

Jan van Thiel wrote:

Hi,

I've read all 36 messages in this thread and have one thing to say: if
a CD/record says "Made in EU" or "Made in Europe", why shouldn't we
use that information? For everything else we have guidelines saying
"Enter what's on the cover/sleeve", but for release countries/regions
this is impossible? So what if someone request North Oceania to be
added as a region? If they have a CD/record that says it's been
released there, that should be entered. New instruments get requested
all the time too; I don't think adding a few regions is that much
work.


Adding new instruments all the time is a problem too, because it harms the 
usability of the website.  It makes it harder for a user to find the 
specific option they're after.


Regions are even worse, such as the difference between "France" and 
"Metropolitan France".  Or when all of "Europe", "EU", and "Western Europe" 
appear in the list because different people have produced examples of CDs 
released in all those places.  OK, it may be technically more accurate, but 
at the expense of making MB much harder to actually use.


Not to mention the arguments over whether Transnistria or Western Sahara is 
a real country, which could get very nasty.


If we really try to represent releases "properly", things are going to get 
much more complicated than that.  CDs are manufactured in several different 
countries, then shipped to other countries.  CDs are promoted in some 
countries but not in others.  Explicit release dates are rigidly enforced 
for some places, while in others that aren't so important the CD just turns 
up whereever.  CDs turn up in other places regardless of the endorsement of 
the label.  And when I say "places", I don't mean countries: I mean 
arbitrary regions; maybe even only one city.  If you want to accurately 
record precisely where a CD is released, you need to have a schema that 
models all of this.  It would be insane.


I am explicitly saying we should *not* strive to reproduce exactly what's on 
the liner notes for releases.  That information is far, far too complicated. 
 Instead, the country should just be a handy little note we add to releases 
so people can see, approximately, which release is which.  So if it was 
released in France, Germany, Belgium and the Netherlands, then calling it a 
European release is not unreasonable.  And if it's released in Australia and 
New Zealand, then it's reasonable to call it an Australian release.  It's 
just enough to tell the difference between one release and another.  It will 
never be enough to state categorically whether an album was ever released in 
New Zealand.  We'll just have to live with that.



For now, I enter UK instead of EU and Europe.


This is exactly what I'd recommend.  And if we add Europe, we're still going 
to need to do things like this for Australasian releases and many other 
cases.


_
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Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Simon Reinhardt]

Marco Sola wrote:


Il Monday, January 09, 2006 6:31 AM
Tarragon M. Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ha scritto:


The further issues here is that, even though they might be released
on the same day, they are arguably different releases. For example,
the U.K. release probably doesn't have German (language) liner notes.
This is where the "it's the European release" falls down.



Of course this is not an EU release.

But expecially for classical they do multiple language liner notes, 
Deutsche Grammophon one are famous, 3 or 4 pages for each language 
resulting in a concrete booklet.


I think if we want good examples we should stick to the EAN code and not 
to some differences in booklets or such. :)
So for all who want to provide examples: please always give us the EAN 
codes.

Perhaps we can collect examples for the following cases:

1. A release which has "Made in the EU" or something similar printed on 
it and for every EU country it was released in has the same EAN and the 
same release date (or better say "street date"?).


2. A release which has "Made in the EU" or something similar printed on 
it and for every EU country it was released in has the same EAN but 
different street dates.


3. A release which has "Made in the EU" or something similar printed on 
it but has different EANs for at least two countries in the EU and 
perhaps also different street dates.


I'm curious about it. :)

Simon (Shepard)
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Re: [mailing] Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Jan van Thiel]

Hi,

I've read all 36 messages in this thread and have one thing to say: if
a CD/record says "Made in EU" or "Made in Europe", why shouldn't we
use that information? For everything else we have guidelines saying
"Enter what's on the cover/sleeve", but for release countries/regions
this is impossible? So what if someone request North Oceania to be
added as a region? If they have a CD/record that says it's been
released there, that should be entered. New instruments get requested
all the time too; I don't think adding a few regions is that much
work. For now, I enter UK instead of EU and Europe.

And yes, I would like to see a real life example of an Antarctica release :)

Jan (zout)

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Re: [mailing] Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Marco Sola]

Il Monday, January 09, 2006 5:22 AM
Björn Krombholz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ha scritto:


We are really really all becoming ridiculus.


Well, the ongoing discussion shows, that it is not, because it is not
just a matter of simply adding EU.


Why? I still can't see what is the matter in adding it.


Just answer a few simple questions:
1. How do you define an EU release? Or when must a release be tagged
with EU?


No, there's a problem underlying: how do you define a release?

As I understand for you a release is the fact a cd is available in stores.

To me a release is the physical cd which is boild so to be sold in a market: 
a brasilian release has portuguese liner notes and a Eu reelase has what it 
is needed to be sold in EU. I mean, if the same identical phisical cd is 
sold in two different country, for me it's same release.


Said that, it's likely I've not the right point of view.


2. Where is the problem in adding existing countries as we do now?


The problem is that users are tagging a cd that have in their hand and the 
only info they have is "2002 made in EU": which country should they use? 
Since whan there is no EU expect them to use nothing or Anctartica (btw I 
really love to see an example of a cd release in all Anctartica in the very 
same day).



3. Do you know an example for an EU release, if yes which is it?


As I said, my collection is loaded with EU release as I intended it. Now I'm 
at work but I will surely document this.



MB has two choice:
1) add EU as release contry, since it's a country, 2) let moderator
add EU releases as Anctartica, which is not a country.



3) Don't add EU and continue with the current policy.


No, 3 is not given, what will happen it's 2, like it or not.

Ciao

MArco 


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Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Marco Sola]

Il Monday, January 09, 2006 6:31 AM
Tarragon M. Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ha scritto:


The further issues here is that, even though they might be released
on the same day, they are arguably different releases. For example,
the U.K. release probably doesn't have German (language) liner notes.
This is where the "it's the European release" falls down.


Of course this is not an EU release.

But expecially for classical they do multiple language liner notes, Deutsche 
Grammophon one are famous, 3 or 4 pages for each language resulting in a 
concrete booklet.


Ciao

MArco 


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Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Tarragon M. Allen]

On Monday 09 January 2006 15:07, Schika wrote:
> Björn Krombholz wrote:
> >is we had some real examples that show that this, this and this
> >releases has to be EU, I might be convinced that we really need it,
> >but I don't see any examples that fit: a) it was released in every
> >neation that is an EU member and b) it was released in all those
> >nations on the same day.
>
> I don't see the problem with the release day. Very common example:
> releases are pressed anywhere, let's say for this example "Germany",
> delivered to the distributers. They ship the products into the several
> countries and finally to the stores. And are open for sale - to the
> public = release date - at a speciffic day.
> The same way how Germany/UK/whatever releases are published at one day.

The further issues here is that, even though they might be released on the 
same day, they are arguably different releases. For example, the U.K. release 
probably doesn't have German (language) liner notes. This is where the "it's 
the European release" falls down.

Schika, you've said several times that "I asked a record label and they said 
this was the Europe release". What is this release? We need a concrete 
example to work with, otherwise this suggestion is going to go nowhere.

t
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Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Schika]

Björn Krombholz wrote:

>is we had some real examples that show that this, this and this
>releases has to be EU, I might be convinced that we really need it,
>but I don't see any examples that fit: a) it was released in every
>neation that is an EU member and b) it was released in all those
>nations on the same day.
>
>  
>
I don't see the problem with the release day. Very common example:
releases are pressed anywhere, let's say for this example "Germany",
delivered to the distributers. They ship the products into the several
countries and finally to the stores. And are open for sale - to the
public = release date - at a speciffic day.
The same way how Germany/UK/whatever releases are published at one day.

Schika

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Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Björn Krombholz]

On 1/8/06, Nikki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> If we add one continent, we would have to add them all.

Not necessarily, it's more like: If we add one new region, we will
have to deal with similar new request every few weeks.

The list of countries is a bit to static to be handled like new
instruments, and as we can see, even there it is not easy to add new
ones.

> > When we add EU now and recognize that it doesn't work two month later,
> > we will have a bigger problem than we have now.
> Why will it not work?

I don't know yet, that's why we should talk about such possibilities. ;)

is we had some real examples that show that this, this and this
releases has to be EU, I might be convinced that we really need it,
but I don't see any examples that fit: a) it was released in every
neation that is an EU member and b) it was released in all those
nations on the same day.


#Fuchs

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Re: [mailing] Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Björn Krombholz]

On 1/8/06, Marco Sola <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> We are really really all becoming ridiculus.

Well, the ongoing discussion shows, that it is not, because it is not
just a matter of simply adding EU.

Just answer a few simple questions:
1. How do you define an EU release? Or when must a release be tagged with EU?
2. Where is the problem in adding existing countries as we do now?
3. Do you know an example for an EU release, if yes which is it?

> I say this once more but for the very last time, MB has two choice: 1) add EU 
> as release contry, since it's a country, 2) let moderator add EU releases as 
> Anctartica, which is not a country.

3) Don't add EU and continue with the current policy.


#Fuchs

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Re: [mailing] Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Marco Sola]

On Sunday, January 08, 2006 5:28 PM,
Schika <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>> The EU is clearly defined and also has an ISO code, like other
>> countries, even though it's not technically a country (although it
>> exhibits several properties of a country). I will gladly submit a
>> patch to include the EU, but I can't see us coming to an agreement
>> about which continents even exist.

Because we seem to like infinite questioning.

> After a discussion with that label about "EU" and "Europe" they made
> me clear:

They who? A single label? Amrican one?

> * They publish the records for the Europian continent only.

European. 

What does it mean? there is not European continent in fact?

> * If they would publish for the Europian Union, 

European.

> they have to ship the recordings all over the world (nearly all colonies of 
> France,
> Netherlands, Denmark, Portugal, Spain and Great Britain counts to the
> EU). 

No, they do their [...] release following EU standards and law and then they 
could keep it at their home:, you are not really obliged to send an EU realease 
in all Eu if they don't want it.

> The term 'made in the EU' is only formal to assign EU rights
>  for the products.
> * Real "EU" releases don't exist at all.

Thanks for warning me, from tomorrow I will infringe all the EU laws that rules 
my life as an italian. 

---

We are really really all becoming ridiculus. 

I say this once more but for the very last time, MB has two choice: 1) add EU 
as release contry, since it's a country, 2) let moderator add EU releases as 
Anctartica, which is not a country.

This is a quite easy issue. The ability of MB to solve it says it all.

Ciao

MArco / ClutchEr2

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Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Schika]

Nikki wrote:

>>Not defined? How about Africa, Antarctica, Asia, Australia, Europe,
>>Nord- & South America ?
>>
>>
>
>Not *clearly* defined. I can say the continents are Africa, Antarctica,
>Eurasia, Oceania and America if I want.
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continent lists SIX different models. Which is
>right? Why is it right?
>
>  
>
yep, why don't add them all?


Schika
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Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Nikki]

On Sun, Jan 08, 2006 at 05:28:05PM +0100, Schika wrote:

> Not defined? How about Africa, Antarctica, Asia, Australia, Europe,
> Nord- & South America ?

Not *clearly* defined. I can say the continents are Africa, Antarctica,
Eurasia, Oceania and America if I want.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continent lists SIX different models. Which is
right? Why is it right?

> * Real "EU" releases don't exist at all.

Real "Europe" releases also don't exist, how can you release an album in
only the European part of Turkey, Russia and Kazakhstan (according to the
map you linked), along with every other country in Europe? I'm sure
shipping costs to Kazakhstan aren't much better than to the overseas
territories of EU nations...

> The following picture should describe the area of europe -
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Europe_political_map.png via
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe

Also note that that says "According to one common view of the boundary".
That includes part, but not all, of Turkey and Russia. My 'view' of Europe
doesn't include Russia (except Kaliningrad) or Turkey, let alone Georgia,
Armenia, Azerbaijan and a bit of Kazakhstan.

--Nikki
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Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Simon Reinhardt]

Schika wrote:


Nikki wrote:

If we add one continent, we would have to add them all. What constitutes a
continent? How many are there in total? They are not clearly defined.


Not defined? How about Africa, Antarctica, Asia, Australia, Europe,
Nord- & South America ?
 

Yes, and how about just America? How about Eurasia? How about Near East? 
Central America? Oceania? ;)

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continent

Simon (Shepard)
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Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Schika]

Nikki wrote:

>On Sun, Jan 08, 2006 at 07:47:22AM +0100, Björn Krombholz wrote:
>
>  
>
>>But you are not the only one reading this list. What I wanted to say
>>is, that you have to add neither or both.
>>
>>
>
>If we add one continent, we would have to add them all. What constitutes a
>continent? How many are there in total? They are not clearly defined.
>
Not defined? How about Africa, Antarctica, Asia, Australia, Europe,
Nord- & South America ?

>The
>EU is clearly defined and also has an ISO code, like other countries, even
>though it's not technically a country (although it exhibits several
>properties of a country). I will gladly submit a patch to include the EU,
>but I can't see us coming to an agreement about which continents even
>exist.
>
>  
>
After a discussion with that label about "EU" and "Europe" they made me
clear:
* They publish the records for the Europian continent only.
* If they would publish for the Europian Union, they have to ship the
recordings all over the world (nearly all colonies of France,
Netherlands, Denmark, Portugal, Spain and Great Britain counts to the EU).
* The term 'made in the EU' is only formal to assign EU rights for the
products.
* Real "EU" releases don't exist at all.

The following picture should describe the area of europe -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Europe_political_map.png via
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe

Schika
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Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Nikki]

On Sun, Jan 08, 2006 at 07:47:22AM +0100, Björn Krombholz wrote:

> But you are not the only one reading this list. What I wanted to say
> is, that you have to add neither or both.

If we add one continent, we would have to add them all. What constitutes a
continent? How many are there in total? They are not clearly defined. The
EU is clearly defined and also has an ISO code, like other countries, even
though it's not technically a country (although it exhibits several
properties of a country). I will gladly submit a patch to include the EU,
but I can't see us coming to an agreement about which continents even
exist.

> When we add EU now and recognize that it doesn't work two month later,
> we will have a bigger problem than we have now.

Why will it not work?

--Nikki
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Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Björn Krombholz]

On 1/7/06, Schika <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Björn Krombholz wrote:
> >>* I can't enter the correct - from the label owners on my request given
> >>- data (in this case release country "Europe" /  "EU")
> >1. Europe and EU would have to be 2 different things.
[...]
> Björn, I sended out this "Release Country ReQUEST" in the first place
> and was refering to this. I know that "Europe" and "EU" are 2 completely
> different things.

But you are not the only one reading this list. What I wanted to say
is, that you have to add neither or both.

> The label itself told me it should be "Europe", which I also prefer.
> Cause everyone here was bugging me it *has to be "EU"* ... bla bla bla
> ... I added "EU" to ... *haaach*  avoid this discussion
> again. o_O
> So, could we come to a solution?

I gave some solutions and arguments against adding EU/Europe/land
between the Ural and the Atlantic Ocean/whatever, please comment them.
And adding new features doesn't work with avoiding discussions, but
finding the right solutions on how it is done best.

When we add EU now and recognize that it doesn't work two month later,
we will have a bigger problem than we have now.


#Fuchs

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Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Don Redman]

On Sat, 07 Jan 2006 06:07:23 +0100, Björn Krombholz wrote:


On 1/7/06, Schika <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

The problem I currently have:
* A release year is known - but not the country. The current situation
don't allows me to enter this.


Right, this would translate into the tuple (YEAR, unknown) and not
(YEAR, EU) (even if you know, the country is part of the EU).


* A release country is known - but not the correct year. The current
situation don't allows me to enter this.


This would be (unknown, COUNTRY) which has nothing to do with EU at
all, but is part of the same problem.



Is this the basis of a reliable database? I don't think so.



The first to cases could be solved by adding "unknown" as valid values
to both year and country.


Yes, Yes, and Yes again.

If there are CDs out there of which the release date is known but not the  
country, and vice versa, then a reliable database should be able to store  
exactly that.


What was the inital reason for the design decision to require both country  
and date? Why cannot one be unknown?


Would this induce _any_ problems? I don't see any.

  DonRedman

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Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Schika]

Björn Krombholz wrote:

>>* I can't enter the correct - from the label owners on my request given
>>- data (in this case release country "Europe" /  "EU")
>>
>>
>
>1. Europe and EU would have to be 2 different things.
>2. If the label really tells you, that they released in either of
>those and this information is correct, then this would be an argument
>for adding EU and/or Europe, although it is an extremely rare case.
>
>  
>
Björn, I sended out this "Release Country ReQUEST" in the first place
and was refering to this. I know that "Europe" and "EU" are 2 completely
different things.
The label itself told me it should be "Europe", which I also prefer.
Cause everyone here was bugging me it *has to be "EU"* ... bla bla bla
... I added "EU" to ... *haaach*  avoid this discussion
again. o_O
So, could we come to a solution?

Schika
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Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Björn Krombholz]

On 1/7/06, Schika <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The problem I currently have:
> * A release year is known - but not the country. The current situation
> don't allows me to enter this.

Right, this would translate into the tuple (YEAR, unknown) and not
(YEAR, EU) (even if you know, the country is part of the EU).

> * A release country is known - but not the correct year. The current
> situation don't allows me to enter this.

This would be (unknown, COUNTRY) which has nothing to do with EU at
all, but is part of the same problem.

> * I can't enter the correct - from the label owners on my request given
> - data (in this case release country "Europe" /  "EU")

1. Europe and EU would have to be 2 different things.
2. If the label really tells you, that they released in either of
those and this information is correct, then this would be an argument
for adding EU and/or Europe, although it is an extremely rare case.

> * finally the only solution for me is *now*: I don't enter anything,
> cause I will not  enter wrong data

You can enter the information into the annotation field where it can
stay until someone comes up who knows the missing piece.

> Is this the basis of a reliable database? I don't think so.

But is adding random new release areas the solution for this problem?
I don't think so. It doesn't matter that _you_ use the new release
area correct when thousands of other moderators won't.

The first to cases could be solved by adding "unknown" as valid values
to both year and country.

The third could be solved by adding all countries you know, they were
really release countries, or by adding it to the annotation, or by
allowing EU and living with a lot of erroneous release records.

I don't know which is the best solution, but IMO the last is the worst.


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Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Schika]

Björn Krombholz wrote:

>On 1/4/06, Tarragon M. Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  
>
>>Do we need to be so strict about this?
>>
>>I think having EU as an option when it's uncertain exactly which country the
>>release was in, or for those releases that do in fact say "EU" on them,
>>should be acceptable. It can be treated as a slightly more exact "[unknown]"
>>style for release locations. If someone knows better they can change it.
>>
>>
>
>I doubt this will work, because people didn't request EU for unknown
>EU releases but releases which appeared in _some_ EU countries on the
>same day.
>
>Further, I don't think we need a hidden "unknown". We should stick
>with correct information. If someone doesn't know the release country,
>he must not add neither some random country nor an unknown EU region.
>And another one probably knows this fact (someone always does) and is
>able to add it.
>
>  
>
The problem I currently have:
* A release year is known - but not the country. The current situation
don't allows me to enter this.
* A release country is known - but not the correct year. The current
situation don't allows me to enter this.
* I can't enter the correct - from the label owners on my request given
- data (in this case release country "Europe" /  "EU")
* finally the only solution for me is *now*: I don't enter anything,
cause I will not  enter wrong data

Is this the basis of a reliable database? I don't think so.

Schika
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Re: [mailing] Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Björn Krombholz]

On 1/4/06, Tarragon M. Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Do we need to be so strict about this?
>
> I think having EU as an option when it's uncertain exactly which country the
> release was in, or for those releases that do in fact say "EU" on them,
> should be acceptable. It can be treated as a slightly more exact "[unknown]"
> style for release locations. If someone knows better they can change it.

I doubt this will work, because people didn't request EU for unknown
EU releases but releases which appeared in _some_ EU countries on the
same day.

Further, I don't think we need a hidden "unknown". We should stick
with correct information. If someone doesn't know the release country,
he must not add neither some random country nor an unknown EU region.
And another one probably knows this fact (someone always does) and is
able to add it.

Adding "might be" facts makes as much sense as adding truly wrong
"infos" and often untrustworthy information is even worse than
obviously wrong. MB must not become yet another source for unreliable
information.


On the other hand, I argued for EU myself. But now, that I really
spent some thinking on the issue, I revert my opinion. It doesn't hurt
to duplicate release dates for 3 (or more) European countries. However
it does hurt to list an album as released in the EU on 2001-01-01,
when there was no such release in a majority of EU nations and
probably a different (but not yet added) one for a few of those.


I know I'm repeating myself, but I want to make sure everyone gets my point. ;)


#Fuchs

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Re: [mailing] Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Tarragon M. Allen]

On Thursday 29 December 2005 23:16, Björn Krombholz wrote:
> On 12/28/05, Nikki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > I'd like this matter resolved this time, it's been going on for too
> > > long.
> >
> > Agreed. So, I suggest that we:
> > 1. Update the country list to include all of ISO 3166-1
> > 2. Change the DB to allow 4 character country codes
> > 3. Include ISO 3166-3 [1]
> > 4. Add the EU [2]
> > 5. Add worldwide/international using one of the user-defined codes [3]
> >
> > Comments? Objections?
>
> EU is extremely problematic, because there are no EU releases (atm).
>
> 1. Different release days: e.g. Friday in Germany, Monday in UK, which
> means you need 2 release entries anyway.
>
> 2. Different releases: Again for UK and most of the other parts of the
> _western_ EU there are a lot of differences in the releases. UK often
> gets "special editions" with bonus tracks, UK releasese often don't
> have copy protection while the continental EU releases do, etc.
>
> 3. I don't know the situation in the eastern EU well, but there are
> differences as well.
>
> 4. I don't know one single release that was releases in the "EU",
> meaning that had an identical release for all countries of the EU
> (except web-only releases, but those fit better into the "world-wide"
> category).
>
>
> #Fuchs

Do we need to be so strict about this?

I think having EU as an option when it's uncertain exactly which country the 
release was in, or for those releases that do in fact say "EU" on them, 
should be acceptable. It can be treated as a slightly more exact "[unknown]" 
style for release locations. If someone knows better they can change it.

I'd like this issue wrapped up by the weekend, and a final proposal defined 
and submitted to the dev team (if required).

t
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Re: [mailing] Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Björn Krombholz]

On 12/28/05, Nikki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I'd like this matter resolved this time, it's been going on for too long.
>
> Agreed. So, I suggest that we:
> 1. Update the country list to include all of ISO 3166-1
> 2. Change the DB to allow 4 character country codes
> 3. Include ISO 3166-3 [1]
> 4. Add the EU [2]
> 5. Add worldwide/international using one of the user-defined codes [3]
>
> Comments? Objections?

EU is extremely problematic, because there are no EU releases (atm).

1. Different release days: e.g. Friday in Germany, Monday in UK, which
means you need 2 release entries anyway.

2. Different releases: Again for UK and most of the other parts of the
_western_ EU there are a lot of differences in the releases. UK often
gets "special editions" with bonus tracks, UK releasese often don't
have copy protection while the continental EU releases do, etc.

3. I don't know the situation in the eastern EU well, but there are
differences as well.

4. I don't know one single release that was releases in the "EU",
meaning that had an identical release for all countries of the EU
(except web-only releases, but those fit better into the "world-wide"
category).


#Fuchs

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Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Matthew Exon]

Alexander Dupuy wrote:

Matthew Exon writes:

I think this would make the drop-down list much more confusing for a new 
user.  Unless there are some regions that really are printed on the back 
of a lot of albums, it seems more trouble than it's worth.



True, for this to work well, the list would probably need to be organized 
as submenus with countries listed alphabetically by continent and/or region 
- which would certainly be possible with some extra Javascript magic, but 
that's probably enough effort to make it more sensible to postpone.


Agreed.

(this bit might belong on devel)
The list of countries will be rather long, what with these little islands 
and historical countries and so on, so I'm wondering if we should be using 
the things you use to enter destinations on travel websites.  You type the 
name, then it searches for similar-looking places and presents you a short 
list of matches.  That helps when you're looking for "Macedonia" and don't 
realise it's under "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" or vice versa.  
This might help with the instruments list as well, or the list of ARs.  So 
even though it's a lot of development effort to implement, it could be 
reused in quite a few places.


So let's just add two user-defined codes, XW "Worldwide" and XX "Unknown" 
and leave it at that for now.


Sounds good.


"France, Metropolitan" *is* the obsolete FX code I referred to above


Oops.  Sorry!

If we are adding EU "European Union" to our list based on its 
"exceptionally reserved" status (which seems to be generally accepted, as 
it is definitely more than just a region, but more of a confederation) I 
don't see any reason not to add the rest of the exceptionally reserved 
codes, except where there is some significant reason.


That's fair enough too.

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Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Alexander Dupuy]

Matthew Exon writes:

I think this would make the drop-down list much more confusing for a 
new user.  Unless there are some regions that really are printed on 
the back of a lot of albums, it seems more trouble than it's worth.



True, for this to work well, the list would probably need to be 
organized as submenus with countries listed alphabetically by continent 
and/or region - which would certainly be possible with some extra 
Javascript magic, but that's probably enough effort to make it more 
sensible to postpone.


So let's just add two user-defined codes, XW "Worldwide" and XX 
"Unknown" and leave it at that for now.


Finally, it seems to me that we might want to add the "exceptionally 
reserved" code elements (except for the obsolete FX code) since there 
really seems no reason to include St Helena (ISO 3166 SH) and exclude 
Jersey, Guernsey, et al. (UPU JE, GG, etc.).



One of those is "France, Metropolitan", which I guess means "except 
French Guiana and miscellaneous islands".  Both that and just "France" 
would be in the drop down list, right next to each other.  I think 
this would be confusing.  It would be technically more correct, but 
again, more trouble than it's worth.


"France, Metropolitan" *is* the obsolete FX code I referred to above (it 
was added to ISO 3166 in 1993, and then removed in 1997 
http://www.statoids.com/w3166his.html).  If we are adding EU "European 
Union" to our list based on its "exceptionally reserved" status (which 
seems to be generally accepted, as it is definitely more than just a 
region, but more of a confederation) I don't see any reason not to add 
the rest of the exceptionally reserved codes, except where there is some 
significant reason.  The complete list of exceptionally reserved codes 
from 
http://www.iso.ch/iso/en/prods-services/iso3166ma/02iso-3166-code-lists/iso_3166-1_decoding_table.html 
is:


AC Ascension Island
CP Clipperton Island
DG Diego Garcia
EA Ceuta, Melilla
EU European Union
FX France, Metropolitan
GG Guernsey
IC Canary Islands
IM Isle of Man
JE Jersey
TA Tristan da Cunha
UK United Kingdom

(note that the current United Kingdom code is GB, except for DNS where 
.uk is more common)


Apart from FX and UK, which create clear confusion with existing codes 
FR and GB, most of these are plausible release areas, even Tristan da 
Cunha, "the remotest island in the world" (population ~300 
http://www.sthelena.se/tristan/tristan.htm) where there's always the 
possibility of a release by their namesake band Tristan da Cunha 
http://www.slendermusic.com/tristan/).


I suppose it is rather more unlikely that there would ever be a release 
on the uninhabited Clipperton Island :-) but this is also the case for 
the ISO 3166 codes for the uninhabited arctic and antarctic islands BV 
"Bouvet Island" and HM "Heard Island and McDonald Islands" which have 
*never* been inhabited (as Clipperton was for a few years early in the 
20th century)


@alex

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Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Matthew Exon]

Alexander Dupuy wrote:

Nikki writes:


Agreed. So, I suggest that we:
1. Update the country list to include all of ISO 3166-1
2. Change the DB to allow 4 character country codes
3. Include ISO 3166-3 [1]
4. Add the EU [2]
5. Add worldwide/international using one of the user-defined codes [3]

Comments? Objections?

[4] 
http://www.iso.ch/iso/en/prods-services/iso3166ma/02iso-3166-code-lists/iso_3166-1_decoding_table.html






I support this concrete and specific proposal to deal with a number of 
closely related issues.


I support all of these too.

But I also want to know what happens to releases that still don't fit into 
the model.  It seems to me that we'd still need something like 
ReleaseCountryStyle in those cases.  My point is that if we need that 
anyway, we might as well be conservative when adding regions to the country 
code list, because there's always an alternative way to add the information.


There is still the slightly contentious issue of country names - I don't 
remember what happened in the end with "Taiwan (Province of China)" but we 
should probably resolve that as well if it hasn't been taken care of 
already, as well as "Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic Of"


I can't remember, but it was either just "Taiwan" or "Taiwan, Republic of 
China".  Probably the first one.  No idea about Macedonia.


Also, it might make sense to use the WIPO ST-3 codes that are reserved in 
your note [4] above for various international organizations to represent 
"Worldwide" (WO) and possibly similar non-European distribution codes (e.g. 
OA for "Africa", BX for "Benelux", but unfortunately there is no Asian or 
Australia-NZ correspondent to these.)  Well, perhaps that's reason enough 
to stick with something like XW "Worldwide", XN "North America & 
Caribbean", XS "South America", XF "Africa", XS "Asia", etcetera, although 
I think that these "continental" country codes will be problematic.


I think this would make the drop-down list much more confusing for a new 
user.  Unless there are some regions that really are printed on the back of 
a lot of albums, it seems more trouble than it's worth.  And we'd have to 
pick and choose which ones to use (unless you want all of "Union of 
Countries under the European Community Patent Convention", "European 
Trademark Office" and "European Patent Organization"), which means 
effectively maintaining our own list; we can't just copy the standard any 
more.  More work for developers, more arguments on the lists.


Finally, it seems to me that we might want to add the "exceptionally 
reserved" code elements (except for the obsolete FX code) since there 
really seems no reason to include St Helena (ISO 3166 SH) and exclude 
Jersey, Guernsey, et al. (UPU JE, GG, etc.).


One of those is "France, Metropolitan", which I guess means "except French 
Guiana and miscellaneous islands".  Both that and just "France" would be in 
the drop down list, right next to each other.  I think this would be 
confusing.  It would be technically more correct, but again, more trouble 
than it's worth.


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Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Matthew Exon]

Schika wrote:

You see why I prefer just "Europe"? The name of the political union has 
been changed and will be changed in future. "Europe" is and was every time 
"Europe"!


Actually it's not so clear cut as that, which is why I prefer "EU".  Is 
Turkey in Europe?  What about Russia?  Or Gibraltar?  The term "EU" has a 
formal definition; "Europe" does not.


If the EU expands, then the date of the release makes it unambiguous.  A CD 
released in the EU in 2005 was released in Estonia, whereas a CD released in 
the EU in 2003 was not.


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Re: [mailing] Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Alexander Dupuy]

Nikki writes:


Agreed. So, I suggest that we:
1. Update the country list to include all of ISO 3166-1
2. Change the DB to allow 4 character country codes
3. Include ISO 3166-3 [1]
4. Add the EU [2]
5. Add worldwide/international using one of the user-defined codes [3]

Comments? Objections?

[4] 
http://www.iso.ch/iso/en/prods-services/iso3166ma/02iso-3166-code-lists/iso_3166-1_decoding_table.html
 



I support this concrete and specific proposal to deal with a number of 
closely related issues.


If changing the DB to allow 4 character country codes would really 
complicate things and delay the development work (NB this is *not* a 
style issue, per se, but a code enhancement request) by more than a day 
or two, I think we could skip it.


There is still the slightly contentious issue of country names - I don't 
remember what happened in the end with "Taiwan (Province of China)" but 
we should probably resolve that as well if it hasn't been taken care of 
already, as well as "Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic Of"


Also, it might make sense to use the WIPO ST-3 codes that are reserved 
in your note [4] above for various international organizations to 
represent "Worldwide" (WO) and possibly similar non-European 
distribution codes (e.g. OA for "Africa", BX for "Benelux", but 
unfortunately there is no Asian or Australia-NZ correspondent to 
these.)  Well, perhaps that's reason enough to stick with something like 
XW "Worldwide", XN "North America & Caribbean", XS "South America", XF 
"Africa", XS "Asia", etcetera, although I think that these "continental" 
country codes will be problematic.


Finally, it seems to me that we might want to add the "exceptionally 
reserved" code elements (except for the obsolete FX code) since there 
really seems no reason to include St Helena (ISO 3166 SH) and exclude 
Jersey, Guernsey, et al. (UPU JE, GG, etc.).


@alex

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Re: [mailing] Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Schika]

  
Could we add "Europe" as entry for releases?

  


  

  OMG, didn't we already add this? MB is surprisingly static. Where
are the allowed link moderators?

  
  

  This issue has come up in the past, and I think there is general
agreement that either "Europe" or more precisely "European Union"
should be added to the list.  Is the latter OK?  'Cause they're not
the same thing, of course :-)  There probably should be a bug
entered for this.
  

I would stick to "Europe" cause this represents the continent and
not only a political / commercial area. Keep in mind that some
europian countries are not part of the "Europian Union"!

  
  No. A release is something done for a market. Europe is not  a
market, European Union it is.  On Cd you will find "Made in EU"
  

  

Every location / area could be a market! 

  
I highly doubt you will find "Made in EU" written on any CD 

  
  
I guess from this you are not european: I have dozens of cd which really have printed on "Made in EU" (or time ago EEC or EC) expecially the newest. (Unfortunately it's not easy or legal to point you to some scans)

  

You see why I prefer just "Europe"? The name of the political union has
been changed and will be changed in future. "Europe" is and was every
time "Europe"!

  
Is it really such a huge problem to have a "Europe" in the country
list? Especially if a particular release was made for the majority of
Europe? Especially when the _record label themselves_ say "it's the
European release"?

  
  
This could be another issue, it's another matter, it's something that could happen, we could even think to add also Europe but I never saw a cd like the one you say. I guess it's because if you do a cd for EU you have to follow a set of laws, for example you have to put some copyright statements on covers or advisors and so on that are equal in all EU. You can't really do an "european" release because probably in Switzerland (that is in inner Europe but not in EU) the law are different and you have to do a different release. 
 
  

Hmm ... let's take a look what I wrote in my request:

Could we add "Europe" as entry for releases?

Cause I had just a discussion with a Label about that, what I have to enter as country for their releases here at MB.
Thanks

Schika



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Re: [mailing] Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Tarragon M. Allen]

On Wednesday 28 December 2005 09:20, Tarragon M. Allen wrote:
> I highly doubt you will find "Made in EU" written on any CD: "EU" isn't a
> country.

I stand corrected (at least 4 times now). You don't need to keep telling me 
I'm wrong. :)

t
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Re: [mailing] Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Nikki]

On Wed, Dec 28, 2005 at 09:20:21AM +1100, Tarragon M. Allen wrote:
> I highly doubt you will find "Made in EU" written on any CD: "EU" isn't a
> country.

I also have CDs with "Made in the EU" on them.

> I'd like this matter resolved this time, it's been going on for too long.

Agreed. So, I suggest that we:
1. Update the country list to include all of ISO 3166-1
2. Change the DB to allow 4 character country codes
3. Include ISO 3166-3 [1]
4. Add the EU [2]
5. Add worldwide/international using one of the user-defined codes [3]

Comments? Objections?

--Nikki

[1] 
http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=971298&group_id=19506&atid=119506
[2] According to [4], the EU is included in ISO 3166-1 as an exceptionally 
reserved code.
[3] 
http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=897023&group_id=19506&atid=369506
[4] 
http://www.iso.ch/iso/en/prods-services/iso3166ma/02iso-3166-code-lists/iso_3166-1_decoding_table.html
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Re: [mailing] Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Marco Sola]

On Tuesday, December 27, 2005 11:20 PM,
Tarragon M. Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Could we add "Europe" as entry for releases?
>> 
>> OMG, didn't we already add this? MB is surprisingly static. Where
>> are the allowed link moderators?
>> 
 This issue has come up in the past, and I think there is general
 agreement that either "Europe" or more precisely "European Union"
 should be added to the list.  Is the latter OK?  'Cause they're not
 the same thing, of course :-)  There probably should be a bug
 entered for this.
>>> 
>>> I would stick to "Europe" cause this represents the continent and
>>> not only a political / commercial area. Keep in mind that some
>>> europian countries are not part of the "Europian Union"!
>> 
>> No. A release is something done for a market. Europe is not  a
>> market, European Union it is.  On Cd you will find "Made in EU"
> 
> I highly doubt you will find "Made in EU" written on any CD 

I guess from this you are not european: I have dozens of cd which really have 
printed on "Made in EU" (or time ago EEC or EC) expecially the newest. 
(Unfortunately it's not easy or legal to point you to some scans)

> "EU"  isn't a country. 

Indeed, but, I say it again, it's a market. The cd are surely printed somewhere 
(I mean Germany or Holland) but (I don't know why)  producers can and really do 
write only "Made in EU" What could an MB editor do? Guess the nation?

(Moderator "natenobility" added a lot of them, expecially classical ones, asked 
for a solution and then put them under Antartica.)

> Also, what happens if a new country joins the EU?

Nothing.

> Will we then have to retroactively go and change any reference to
> that country to the EU? I don't think so.

Form this question I guess you did not get the problem: this request it's not a 
lazy way for not to put the correct nation on release nor a way to state 
something of political, it's just a request to allow people to put in MB what 
is written on  CDs.
 
> Is it really such a huge problem to have a "Europe" in the country
> list? Especially if a particular release was made for the majority of
> Europe? Especially when the _record label themselves_ say "it's the
> European release"?

This could be another issue, it's another matter, it's something that could 
happen, we could even think to add also Europe but I never saw a cd like the 
one you say. I guess it's because if you do a cd for EU you have to follow a 
set of laws, for example you have to put some copyright statements on covers or 
advisors and so on that are equal in all EU. You can't really do an "european" 
release because probably in Switzerland (that is in inner Europe but not in EU) 
the law are different and you have to do a different release. 
 
> Maybe we really need to decide exactly what the release location is supposed 
> to represent?

No.
 
> I'd like this matter resolved this time, it's been going on for too
> long. 

As always.

Ciao

MArco / ClutchEr2

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Re: [mailing] Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Chris B]

From: "Tarragon M. Allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "MusicBrainz style discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2005 10:20 PM
Subject: Re: [mailing] Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

I highly doubt you will find "Made in EU" written on any CD: "EU" isn't a
country. Also, what happens if a new country joins the EU? Will we then 
have

to retroactively go and change any reference to that country to the EU? I
don't think so.

Is it really such a huge problem to have a "Europe" in the country list?
Especially if a particular release was made for the majority of Europe?
Especially when the _record label themselves_ say "it's the European
release"?

Maybe we really need to decide exactly what the release location is 
supposed

to represent?



where it is *released* rather than where it is *made* (often the same place 
with small labels, often different with the majors)


IMO it's always a bit tricky to get a good system for this as there are many 
different 'distribution areas' (ie groups of countries that a label 
distributes their releases on the same day). i think we should only try to 
represent the common ones (north america, europe, australia + new zealand, 
?) as some of them are just bespoke things for a labels convenience.


most of the time people will just put in where they bought the record, so 
it's all a bit academic :) 


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Re: [mailing] Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Steve Wyles]

On Wed, 28 Dec 2005, Tarragon M. Allen wrote:


I highly doubt you will find "Made in EU" written on any CD: "EU" isn't a
country. Also, what happens if a new country joins the EU? Will we then have
to retroactively go and change any reference to that country to the EU? I
don't think so.


Actually, I've got "Made in EU" on several recent CD's. Sony BMG seem to 
always do this for new European releases. Although the EU isn't a country, 
it has quite a few features that countries have. I think the latest CIA 
World Factbook describes the situation accurately:


"Although the EU is not a federation in the strict sense, it is far more 
than a free-trade association such as ASEAN, NAFTA, or Mercosur, and it 
has many of the attributes associated with independent nations: its own 
flag, anthem, founding date, and currency, as well as an incipient common 
foreign and security policy in its dealings with other nations. In the 
future, many of these nation-like characteristics are likely to be 
expanded. Thus, inclusion of basic intelligence on the EU has been deemed 
appropriate as a new, separate entity in The World Factbook. However, 
because of the EU's special status, this description is placed after the 
regular country entries."


Steve (inhouseuk)
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Re: [mailing] Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Tarragon M. Allen]

On Sunday 25 December 2005 00:16, Marco Sola wrote:
> On Saturday, December 24, 2005 10:50 AM,
>
> Schika <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>> Could we add "Europe" as entry for releases?
>
> OMG, didn't we already add this? MB is surprisingly static. Where are the
> allowed link moderators?
>
> >> This issue has come up in the past, and I think there is general
> >> agreement that either "Europe" or more precisely "European Union"
> >> should be added to the list.  Is the latter OK?  'Cause they're not
> >> the same thing, of course :-)  There probably should be a bug entered
> >> for this.
> >
> > I would stick to "Europe" cause this represents the continent and not
> > only a political / commercial area. Keep in mind that some europian
> > countries are not part of the "Europian Union"!
>
> No. A release is something done for a market. Europe is not  a market,
> European Union it is.  On Cd you will find "Made in EU"

I highly doubt you will find "Made in EU" written on any CD: "EU" isn't a 
country. Also, what happens if a new country joins the EU? Will we then have 
to retroactively go and change any reference to that country to the EU? I 
don't think so.

Is it really such a huge problem to have a "Europe" in the country list? 
Especially if a particular release was made for the majority of Europe? 
Especially when the _record label themselves_ say "it's the European 
release"?

Maybe we really need to decide exactly what the release location is supposed 
to represent?

I'd like this matter resolved this time, it's been going on for too long.

t
-- 
http://moto-coda.org/public.gpg.key
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Re: [mailing] Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Marco Sola]

On Saturday, December 24, 2005 10:50 AM,
Schika <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>>> Could we add "Europe" as entry for releases?

OMG, didn't we already add this? MB is surprisingly static. Where are the 
allowed link moderators?

>> This issue has come up in the past, and I think there is general
>> agreement that either "Europe" or more precisely "European Union"
>> should be added to the list.  Is the latter OK?  'Cause they're not
>> the same thing, of course :-)  There probably should be a bug entered
>> for this.
>> 
> I would stick to "Europe" cause this represents the continent and not
> only a political / commercial area. Keep in mind that some europian
> countries are not part of the "Europian Union"!

No. A release is something done for a market. Europe is not  a market, European 
Union it is.  On Cd you will find "Made in EU"

Ciao

MArco / ClutchEr2

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Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Schika]

Matthew Exon wrote:

> Schika wrote:
>
>> Could we add "Europe" as entry for releases?
>>
>> Cause I had just a discussion with a Label about that, what I have to
>> enter as country for their releases here at MB.
>> Thanks
>
>
> This issue has come up in the past, and I think there is general
> agreement that either "Europe" or more precisely "European Union"
> should be added to the list.  Is the latter OK?  'Cause they're not
> the same thing, of course :-)  There probably should be a bug entered
> for this.
>
> The issue of adding other "regions" has been rather controversial in
> the past.  See http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/ReleaseCountryStyle for
> some discussion of the issues involved.
>
I would stick to "Europe" cause this represents the continent and not
only a political / commercial area. Keep in mind that some europian
countries are not part of the "Europian Union"!
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Re: [mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Matthew Exon]

Schika wrote:

Could we add "Europe" as entry for releases?

Cause I had just a discussion with a Label about that, what I have to enter 
as country for their releases here at MB.

Thanks


This issue has come up in the past, and I think there is general agreement 
that either "Europe" or more precisely "European Union" should be added to 
the list.  Is the latter OK?  'Cause they're not the same thing, of course 
:-)  There probably should be a bug entered for this.


The issue of adding other "regions" has been rather controversial in the 
past.  See http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/ReleaseCountryStyle for some 
discussion of the issues involved.


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[mb-style] Release Country ReQUEST

[Schika]

Could we add "Europe" as entry for releases?

Cause I had just a discussion with a Label about that, what I have to enter as 
country for their releases here at MB.
Thanks

Schika

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