Re: Call for StyleSecretary Help: Let's try discussing/deciding thisin IRC (was [mb-style] add instrument request: vacuum cleaner)

[Brian Gurtler]

looks whose whining now..

Robert Kaye wrote:
> 
> On Mar 27, 2006, at 4:39 PM, Jan van Thiel wrote:
>> I think that if e.g. inhouseuk (sorry to (ab)use your name, just
>> giving an example), a moderator with a spotless record, had requested
>> these, they would've been added almost instantaneously.
> 
> I disagree.
> 
> If a moderator with a "perfect record" asks to add something that
> clutters the DB, I'd balk too. But I think our moderators with perfect
> records have a good enough grasp to understand when something clutters
> up the DB and when something makes sense.
> 
>> I'm just deducing the current system doesn't work yet, because of
>> personal misunderstanding between people. Whether or not this involves
>> 'whining'.
> 
> Well, the system needs fine-tuning yes. And we're the process of working
> out the kinks.
> 
> The problem is that one person said, "Go" and another person took those
> instructions and went ahead and did what was asked. The original "Go"
> was premature, but I think it would be worse to flounder and go back and
> remove it again.
> 
> People make mistakes, we're all human.
> 
> However, I do appreciate your sentiments. We should aim to be fair to
> all of our users. Spotless record moderators and whiners all alike. :-)
> 
> -- 
> 
> --ruaok  Somewhere in Texas a village is *still* missing its idiot.
> 
> Robert Kaye -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --http://mayhem-chaos.net
> 
> 
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Re: Call for StyleSecretary Help: Let's try discussing/deciding thisin IRC (was [mb-style] add instrument request: vacuum cleaner)

[Robert Kaye]

On Mar 27, 2006, at 4:39 PM, Jan van Thiel wrote:

I think that if e.g. inhouseuk (sorry to (ab)use your name, just
giving an example), a moderator with a spotless record, had requested
these, they would've been added almost instantaneously.


I disagree.

If a moderator with a "perfect record" asks to add something that  
clutters the DB, I'd balk too. But I think our moderators with  
perfect records have a good enough grasp to understand when something  
clutters up the DB and when something makes sense.



I'm just deducing the current system doesn't work yet, because of
personal misunderstanding between people. Whether or not this involves
'whining'.


Well, the system needs fine-tuning yes. And we're the process of  
working out the kinks.


The problem is that one person said, "Go" and another person took  
those instructions and went ahead and did what was asked. The  
original "Go" was premature, but I think it would be worse to  
flounder and go back and remove it again.


People make mistakes, we're all human.

However, I do appreciate your sentiments. We should aim to be fair to  
all of our users. Spotless record moderators and whiners all alike. :-)


--

--ruaok  Somewhere in Texas a village is *still* missing its idiot.

Robert Kaye -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --http://mayhem-chaos.net


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Re: Call for StyleSecretary Help: Let's try discussing/deciding thisin IRC (was [mb-style] add instrument request: vacuum cleaner)

[Jan van Thiel]

On 3/27/06, Robert Kaye <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> But, what is done is done, and at least
> we don't have to listen to the incessant whining about adding the
> damned vacuum cleaner. Let's move on.

I don't agree. Brian has been asking about this for a *long* time.
Maybe not in the best way, but with arguments and examples.

I think that if e.g. inhouseuk (sorry to (ab)use your name, just
giving an example), a moderator with a spotless record, had requested
these, they would've been added almost instantaneously. With respect
to this, I think Brian needed to 'whine' to get this instrument added.

I'm just deducing the current system doesn't work yet, because of
personal misunderstanding between people. Whether or not this involves
'whining'.

Hope this comment helped.

zout
--
Jan van Thiel

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Re: Call for StyleSecretary Help: Let's try discussing/deciding thisin IRC (was [mb-style] add instrument request: vacuum cleaner)

[Brian Gurtler]

incessant whining?
and you call Me confrontational..

Robert Kaye wrote:
> 
> On Mar 27, 2006, at 4:53 AM, Don Redman wrote:
>> Well, then I'd say we should add this now and let Brian add the
>> appropriate Relationships.
>>
>> I mean if we finally have a rule, we should use it :-)
> 
> Yes, but
> 
> Luks went ahead and added the vacuum cleaner. Fine. However, in the
> future I want to see documented proof of the five uses on an album
> BEFORE we add the instrument. But, what is done is done, and at least we
> don't have to listen to the incessant whining about adding the damned
> vacuum cleaner. Let's move on.
> 
>> -- 
> 
> --ruaok Somewhere in Texas a village is *still* missing its idiot.
> 
> Robert Kaye -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --http://mayhem-chaos.net
> 
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Re: Call for StyleSecretary Help: Let's try discussing/deciding thisin IRC (was [mb-style] add instrument request: vacuum cleaner)

[Robert Kaye]

On Mar 27, 2006, at 5:24 AM, Don Redman wrote:

And I am strongly opposed to removing your RelType editor privileges.


Agreed. So far all Luks' actions were following valid bugs or 
instructions from the style secretary.



--


--ruaok Somewhere in Texas a village is *still* missing its 
idiot.


Robert Kaye -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --http://mayhem-chaos.net

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Re: Call for StyleSecretary Help: Let's try discussing/deciding thisin IRC (was [mb-style] add instrument request: vacuum cleaner)

[Robert Kaye]

On Mar 27, 2006, at 4:53 AM, Don Redman wrote:
Well, then I'd say we should add this now and let Brian add the 
appropriate Relationships.


I mean if we finally have a rule, we should use it :-)


Yes, but

Luks went ahead and added the vacuum cleaner. Fine. However, in the 
future I want to see documented proof of the five uses on an album 
BEFORE we add the instrument. But, what is done is done, and at least 
we don't have to listen to the incessant whining about adding the 
damned vacuum cleaner. Let's move on.



--


--ruaok Somewhere in Texas a village is *still* missing its 
idiot.


Robert Kaye -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --http://mayhem-chaos.net

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Re: Call for StyleSecretary Help: Let's try discussing/deciding thisin IRC (was [mb-style] add instrument request: vacuum cleaner)

[Don Redman]

On Mon, 27 Mar 2006 00:31:39 +0200, Lukáš Lalinský wrote:

Ok, I've added this and http://test.musicbrainz.org/trac/ticket/1228 to  
the instrument tree.


Some people will probably disagree, so please tell me, I'll ask someone  
to remove my link editor privs and won't do it anymore.


What?

This is a valid addition. I am a Harmonica player myself and can prove that

 a) There is a notable difference between the chromatic and the diatonic  
Hamonica that most Blues afficionados can recognise. The difference is  
about as important as the difference between the Trumpet and the Clairon  
(the former has valves the latter does not).


 b) There are _much_ more than five albums on which the chromatic  
Harmonica is played [1].


And I am strongly opposed to removing your RelType editor privileges.

And you should add the Diatonic Harmonica which is played by even more  
people, too


  DonRedman


[1] all or  
  
but also stuff like  
.


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Re: Call for StyleSecretary Help: Let's try discussing/deciding thisin IRC (was [mb-style] add instrument request: vacuum cleaner)

[Don Redman]

On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 22:34:18 +0200, Brian Gurtler wrote:


Stefan Kestenholz wrote:


brian: Is it true that this artist performed the vacuum cleaner on many
occasions, and this is documented in bootlegs/released recordings? if  
that is the case, then we should add it.


yes it's true.
i am not making this stuff up. :)
i have been in the process of trying to compile a full list of times
that Jon Fishman alone has used the vacuum as an instrument out of all
Phish live bootleg recordings. Phish also offer hundreds of official
recordings (actual CDs as well as download only releases) and out of
those I'd say it's safe to say that one or more [1] contains Fishman
playing the vac.. putting our total of "albums" with a vac at over 5.

[1] see 8/11/04
http://www.phish.com/fromtheroad/detail.php?year=2004&month=8
which is available on livephish.com


Well, then I'd say we should add this now and let Brian add the  
appropriate Relationships.


I mean if we finally have a rule, we should use it :-)

  DonRedman


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Re: Call for StyleSecretary Help: Let's try discussing/deciding thisin IRC (was [mb-style] add instrument request: vacuum cleaner)

[Lukáš Lalinský]

Ok, I've added this and http://test.musicbrainz.org/trac/ticket/1228 to the 
instrument tree.


Some people will probably disagree, so please tell me, I'll ask someone to 
remove my link editor privs and won't do it anymore.


Lukas

Brian Gurtler wrote:

yes it's true.
i am not making this stuff up. :)
i have been in the process of trying to compile a full list of times
that Jon Fishman alone has used the vacuum as an instrument out of all
Phish live bootleg recordings. Phish also offer hundreds of official
recordings (actual CDs as well as download only releases) and out of
those I'd say it's safe to say that one or more [1] contains Fishman
playing the vac.. putting our total of "albums" with a vac at over 5.

[1] see 8/11/04
http://www.phish.com/fromtheroad/detail.php?year=2004&month=8
which is available on livephish.com

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Re: Call for StyleSecretary Help: Let's try discussing/deciding thisin IRC (was [mb-style] add instrument request: vacuum cleaner)

[Brian Gurtler]

yes it's true.
i am not making this stuff up. :)
i have been in the process of trying to compile a full list of times
that Jon Fishman alone has used the vacuum as an instrument out of all
Phish live bootleg recordings. Phish also offer hundreds of official
recordings (actual CDs as well as download only releases) and out of
those I'd say it's safe to say that one or more [1] contains Fishman
playing the vac.. putting our total of "albums" with a vac at over 5.

[1] see 8/11/04
http://www.phish.com/fromtheroad/detail.php?year=2004&month=8
which is available on livephish.com




Stefan Kestenholz wrote:
>>> I respect Don but as I said before, I'm just really tired of 
>>> waiting months to get this instrument (or any other instrument) added.
>>>
>>> -b
>> Apologies. I misunderstood the comment.
> 
> 
> I have to admit that it is sometimes hard to understand why changes like
> that take such a lot of time, or the deal that is made out of them. please
> do not get personal over this, it's not worth it - and will more likely
> achieve less than just keeping your cool.
> 
> brian: Is it true that this artist performed the vacuum cleaner on many
> occasions, and this is documented in bootlegs/released recordings? if that
> is the case, then we should add it.
> 
> i think it is a waste of energy to keep on discussing the addition of this,
> if there is a clear documented use of it? as i said before: we should rather
> invest energy into thinking how we could handle the instrument lookup if
> there are increasingly more instruments added, which might be quite likely
> when we embrace music from more cultures and/or contients. On the other
> hand, if someone used a spoon or a fork in one song, that would be a case
> where we should abstain from adding them as instruments (=percussion
> instr.).
> 
>   g0llum
> 
> 
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Re: Call for StyleSecretary Help: Let's try discussing/deciding thisin IRC (was [mb-style] add instrument request: vacuum cleaner)

[Don Redman]

On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 13:47:10 +0200, Steve Wyles wrote:


On Sun, 26 Mar 2006, Don Redman wrote:

The current "Recording Engineer" debate is a good example: Simon  
thought he was requesting a veto (but did not say so explicitly), but  
Steve put forward a dissenting oppinion (he did not label it as a veto)  
and spared another discussion.


I've just checked my archive and from what I can see, although the  
Recording Engineer proposal was mentioned on the mailing list back in  
December 2005, there was very little discussion on it. Well, there would  
have been discusion, but, it drifted off to a debate about "Mixed By"


The original thread starts here:

http://lists.musicbrainz.org/pipermail/musicbrainz-style/2005-December/001006.html


Thanks for pointing this out. Another reason to request a veto relatively  
soon after a discussion has dribbled out.


Interestingly this old thread shows that there were similar objections to  
the "mixed by" phrase, which is now implemented, and no issues have been  
reported at all. Also Discogs seem to use both phrases without any trouble.


  DonRedman

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Re: Call for StyleSecretary Help: Let's try discussing/deciding thisin IRC (was [mb-style] add instrument request: vacuum cleaner)

[Simon Reinhardt]

Steve Wyles wrote:

On Sun, 26 Mar 2006, Don Redman wrote:

The current "Recording Engineer" debate is a good example: Simon 
thought he was requesting a veto (but did not say so explicitly), but 
Steve put forward a dissenting oppinion (he did not label it as a 
veto) and spared another discussion.


I've just checked my archive and from what I can see, although the 
Recording Engineer proposal was mentioned on the mailing list back in 
December 2005, there was very little discussion on it. Well, there would 
have been discusion, but, it drifted off to a debate about "Mixed By"


Well I was just not sure if there was or not. I thought there was. That's what 
the requesting mail is for: if there's need for more discussion then we'll have 
it. I don't think this should be seen as a formalized process of discussion 
phase, requests for vetos and vetos.

Simon (Shepard)
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Re: Call for StyleSecretary Help: Let's try discussing/deciding thisin IRC (was [mb-style] add instrument request: vacuum cleaner)

[Steve Wyles]

On Sun, 26 Mar 2006, Don Redman wrote:

The current "Recording Engineer" debate is a good example: Simon thought he 
was requesting a veto (but did not say so explicitly), but Steve put forward 
a dissenting oppinion (he did not label it as a veto) and spared another 
discussion.


I've just checked my archive and from what I can see, although the 
Recording Engineer proposal was mentioned on the mailing list back in 
December 2005, there was very little discussion on it. Well, there would 
have been discusion, but, it drifted off to a debate about "Mixed By"


The original thread starts here:

http://lists.musicbrainz.org/pipermail/musicbrainz-style/2005-December/001006.html

Steve (inhouseuk)
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Re: Call for StyleSecretary Help: Let's try discussing/deciding thisin IRC (was [mb-style] add instrument request: vacuum cleaner)

[Don Redman]

On Sun, 26 Mar 2006 12:04:25 +0200, Stefan Kestenholz wrote:


I have to admit that it is sometimes hard to understand why changes like
that take such a lot of time, or the deal that is made out of them.  
please

do not get personal over this, it's not worth it - and will more likely
achieve less than just keeping your cool.


I think this takes such a long time mostly because there is no fully  
defined process for this kind of changes, yet. This means that evertime  
someone requests a change, we argue not only about the issue, but also  
about the process. This is time consuming, and sometimes annoying.


Moreover it can be difficult to make the difference. Is this taking so  
long, because people are against my proposal? Or is it taking so long  
because it is not clear which arguments are valid in this kind of debate,  
when they should be put forward, and by whom?


The current "Recording Engineer" debate is a good example: Simon thought  
he was requesting a veto (but did not say so explicitly), but Steve put  
forward a dissenting oppinion (he did not label it as a veto) and spared  
another discussion.


I think this means that the requestor should not wait too long with the  
request for veto. People still need to remember the debate, or they will  
start a new one. Tactically the best time for a RFV is perhaps a bout a  
day after the debate has drefted into pointlessness :-).


  DonRedman

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RE: Call for StyleSecretary Help: Let's try discussing/deciding thisin IRC (was [mb-style] add instrument request: vacuum cleaner)

[Cristov Russell]

> As far as i know the position of "Instrument Secretary" is 
> not held by anyone (including DonRedman) and is still open 
> and available.
> 
> i didn't call anyone specifically spineless. So I don't see 
> that as confrontational. I'm saying in jest, give the 
> position to someone who will flip-flop and not because as far 
> as requirements of the position, that seems to be one.
> i was told i didn't fit the position for something where 
> decisions would be made.. because i stand by my word and 
> don't back down easily. if anyone that does end up with the 
> position they are going to be expected to flip flop and 
> basically have no opinion?
> Most confrontations I've been involved with on IRC were 
> misunderstandings on both ends or extreme over reaction on the other.
> 
> I respect Don but as I said before, I'm just really tired of 
> waiting months to get this instrument (or any other instrument) added.
> 
> -b

Apologies. I misunderstood the comment.

Cristov (wolfsong)


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Re: Call for StyleSecretary Help: Let's try discussing/deciding thisin IRC (was [mb-style] add instrument request: vacuum cleaner)

[Brian Gurtler]

As far as i know the position of "Instrument Secretary" is not held by
anyone (including DonRedman) and is still open and available.

i didn't call anyone specifically spineless. So I don't see that as
confrontational. I'm saying in jest, give the position to someone who
will flip-flop and not because as far as requirements of the position,
that seems to be one.
i was told i didn't fit the position for something where decisions would
be made.. because i stand by my word and don't back down easily. if
anyone that does end up with the position they are going to be expected
to flip flop and basically have no opinion?
Most confrontations I've been involved with on IRC were
misunderstandings on both ends or extreme over reaction on the other.

I respect Don but as I said before, I'm just really tired of waiting
months to get this instrument (or any other instrument) added.

-b


Cristov Russell wrote:
>> I've been waiting over 3 months for an instrument to be added 
>> to MB and jumped through way too many bullshit hoops to get 
>> to where we are now.
>> i'm just looking for it to be added without any further hoops 
>> like i was told by Redman that it would be once Mos thingy 
>> went live. It's been live for over two weeks and still no vacuum.
>> the email is hardly confrontational, i'm requesting someone 
>> follow up on their word.
> 
> 
> While your previous email asking for follow up (quite understandably) might
> be the case, this thread comes across clearly is an attack on DonRedman. You
> can't call someone spineless and expect that to not be considered
> confrontational.
> 
> --
> Cristov (wolfsong)
> 
> 
> 
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RE: Call for StyleSecretary Help: Let's try discussing/deciding thisin IRC (was [mb-style] add instrument request: vacuum cleaner)

[Cristov Russell]

> I've been waiting over 3 months for an instrument to be added 
> to MB and jumped through way too many bullshit hoops to get 
> to where we are now.
> i'm just looking for it to be added without any further hoops 
> like i was told by Redman that it would be once Mos thingy 
> went live. It's been live for over two weeks and still no vacuum.
> the email is hardly confrontational, i'm requesting someone 
> follow up on their word.


While your previous email asking for follow up (quite understandably) might
be the case, this thread comes across clearly is an attack on DonRedman. You
can't call someone spineless and expect that to not be considered
confrontational.

--
Cristov (wolfsong)


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Re: Call for StyleSecretary Help: Let's try discussing/deciding thisin IRC (was [mb-style] add instrument request: vacuum cleaner)

[Brian Gurtler]

I've been waiting over 3 months for an instrument to be added to MB and
jumped through way too many bullshit hoops to get to where we are now.
i'm just looking for it to be added without any further hoops like i was
told by Redman that it would be once Mos thingy went live. It's been
live for over two weeks and still no vacuum.
the email is hardly confrontational, i'm requesting someone follow up on
their word.

Cristov Russell wrote:
>> LOL
>> yes, give the position to someone that has no spine and will 
>> back down at any argument presented to them.
>> you know that i'm only confrontational when confronted.. and 
>> i believe most people that don't have thier head in the 
>> coulds on IRC realize that as well.
>>
>> -Brian
>>
>> btw-- what exactly ARE the "qualifications" for the "position"?
> 
> Technically since you're attacking DonRedman with this email you are being
> confrontational now and he hasn't confronted you.
> 
> Cristov (wolfsong)
> 
> 
> 
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RE: Call for StyleSecretary Help: Let's try discussing/deciding thisin IRC (was [mb-style] add instrument request: vacuum cleaner)

[Cristov Russell]

> LOL
> yes, give the position to someone that has no spine and will 
> back down at any argument presented to them.
> you know that i'm only confrontational when confronted.. and 
> i believe most people that don't have thier head in the 
> coulds on IRC realize that as well.
> 
> -Brian
> 
> btw-- what exactly ARE the "qualifications" for the "position"?

Technically since you're attacking DonRedman with this email you are being
confrontational now and he hasn't confronted you.

Cristov (wolfsong)


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