RE: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?

[Daniel Golding]

Oh really?

That's like saying that there is not enough stuff you have to know to
successfully design air conditioners or cars to fill single semester
courses, and yet, Mechanical Engineering programs exist.

A good undergrad degree program in network engineering would have...

- a solid CS core of introductory coding classes, with some OS stuff

- A bunch of math, concentrating on the applied side, especially statistics
and discrete math.

- EE, at least a year or two, to cover the basics

- The normal engineering core classes (calculus, physics, chemistry,
statics, dynamics, thermodynamics, fluids)

- And then some actual network engineering stuff like routing protocols,
wireless, microwave, optics, LAN technologies, etc

Finally, like most modern engineering programs, it would be heavily design
based, and include numerous design projects and a capstone project.

- Daniel Golding

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
> Vadim Antonov
> Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 4:11 AM
> To: Andrew Dorsett
> Cc: Kristian P. Jackson; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?
>
>
>
>
> > On Wed, 22 May 2002, Kristian P. Jackson wrote:
> >
> >> Perhaps a bachelors in network
> >> engineering is in order?
>
> I'm afraid there's not enough stuff one has to know to sucessfully
> "design" networks to fill more than one-semester course.
>
> --vadim
>

Re: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?

[Nathan J. Mehl]

In the immortal words of Paul Vixie ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
> 
> The trouble is, often times I'd rather hire the world's smartest garbage
> man.  I never forget that when I got done interviewing for my first full
> time programming job I went back to my job fixing cars and pumping gas, and
> my fallback plan in case programming didn't work out was driving a tow 
> truck (which paid better than either.)  

*blink*

You are the second person to tell me this story, almost word-for-word
verbatim, including the detail about the tow trucks.

The first person was Eugene Kashpureff.  (Indeed, Alternic, Inc. was
actually a d/b/a identify of his towing company.)

It's a small, and very strange world.

-n

<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Transported to a surreal landscape, a young girl kills the first woman she 
meets and then teams up with three complete stangers to kill again.
  (-- TV listing for the movie, The Wizard of Oz, in the Marin Paper.)

Re: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?

[Petr M. Swedock]

 : : Vadim Antonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 : 
 :  
 : > On Wed, 22 May 2002, Kristian P. Jackson wrote:
 : > 
 : >> Perhaps a bachelors in network
 : >> engineering is in order?
 : 
 : I'm afraid there's not enough stuff one has to know to sucessfully
 : "design" networks to fill more than one-semester course.

One should not design networks. Designing networks is not a
solitary activity. One should be part of a team that works
to design networks. That team should be made up of people
who know many and divers things. 

You are not far off the mark,  however: There's not enough stuff, 
not contained in other coursework, to fill more than one-semester 
course in networking.  That is just to say that 'networking' is 
not a fundamental discipline in the same way as math, or chemistry 
might be but is an amalgam of intersecting skills and disciplines 
that are easily found elsewhere.  The engineers I admire and respect
all combine analytical skills (math), understanding of the
physical layer (electrical engineering, physics), financial
and resource allocation (economics), building fitout (mechanical
engineering, architecture) and computers (those things that
sit at the nodes of the networks...) AND they are constantly
striving to better understand the relationships between all
those things.

None of the engineers I respect and admire, came by the depth
and breadth of their skill not by walking a linear path but 
rather by wandering hither and yon... cataloguing as they 
went. School made sense for many, less so for others... 

The pivotal advice I received was regarding a decision to
stay, or leave, the small college I was attending and to
get an engineering degree at a larger college. My physics
professor argued thusly: "You can get and engineering degree
and be an engineer, or you can get a physics degree and
be anything."  

Peace,

Petr

-- 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]http://web.mit.edu/petr  http://lids.mit.edu

   You can design simply, or you can design for simplicity.
   The first requires a fear of complexity only. The second 
   requires an understanding of complexity. Choice is yours
 
 
  
  

RE: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?

[Randy Neals]

Kristian P. Jackson, might have said:
>Perhaps a bachelors in network engineering is in order?

Masters Degree in Internetworking
http://www.dal.ca/~eine/

-Randy

Re: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?

[Rick J Casarez]

Andrew,

The college I am attending, Strayer Univeristy, has a B.S. degree
in Internetworking. While it is kinds geared towards Cisco the good part
is that they will give credit for life experience etc. I am getting credit
for 8 classes due to my work experience in the field. The also have online
courses so you do not have to actually go to class. They are a private
school so tuition is a bit higher than state run schools but to me worth
the cost since I do not think a degree in Computer Science is going to
help me in my career. The price for the online courses are the same no
matter where you live. Finally, they are fully accredited.

www.strayer.edu

Monkeys screamed incessantly when Andrew Dorsett said:

> 
> On Wed, 22 May 2002, Kristian P. Jackson wrote:
> 
> > running around acting like network engineers, just as a bunch of network
> > engineers are no more qualified to program. Perhaps a bachelors in network
> > engineering is in order?
> 
> EXACTLY my conceptSo why can't we find some university and develop
> this so I can transfer into a program I enjoy
> 
> - Andrew
> ---
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> http://www.andrewsworld.net/
> ICQ: 2895251
> Cisco Certified Network Associate
> 
> "Learn from the mistakes of others. You won't live long enough to make all of them 
>yourself."
> 
> 

Cheers,
 

Rick Casarez, CCNP/CCDP 
Systems Engineer II
Phone: 703-886-7468  


   - WorldCom powered by the UUNET backbone -

Re: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?

[Vadim Antonov]

 
> On Wed, 22 May 2002, Kristian P. Jackson wrote:
> 
>> Perhaps a bachelors in network
>> engineering is in order?

I'm afraid there's not enough stuff one has to know to sucessfully
"design" networks to fill more than one-semester course.

--vadim

Re: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?

[Vadim Antonov]

On Wed, 22 May 2002, Jim Hickstein wrote:
> 
> When I see a resume with more degrees than a thermometer, but even minor 
> spelling, punctuation, or other such errors, I throw it out.  Meticulous 
> attention to detail matters a lot in this business.

I usually make a correction for nationality... a lot of people in the
industry are not native English speakers.  But the principle is quite
valid.

--vadim 

Re: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?

[Paul Vixie]

I guess I've got a little bit of a mad on about this topic.  Hit "D" now.



[EMAIL PROTECTED] ("Paul A Flores") writes:

> What you have to remember is that having a degree or certification allows
> the non-clue full out in the 'real' world to easily tell the difference
> between you and say, the world's smartest garbage man.

The trouble is, often times I'd rather hire the world's smartest garbage
man.  I never forget that when I got done interviewing for my first full
time programming job I went back to my job fixing cars and pumping gas, and
my fallback plan in case programming didn't work out was driving a tow 
truck (which paid better than either.)  As it happens they hired me, and now
my skills have atrophied to where I actually pay other people to fix my car
since I don't grok all the new hoses and computer thingies they have now.



[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Leo Bicknell) writes:

> > So what you're saying is, if I hadn't dropped out of high school during
> > my 17th trip around Sol, I wouldn't've gotten stuck in this dead end job?
> 
> I said college provides those skills.  I did not say college was
> the only way to get those skills.  The converse is true as well,
> having those skills doesn't guarantee success.

Actually you said...

> > If you ever want to become a team leader, or a manger, or run a
> > theoretical group you are going to need the math and English
> > backgrounds that college provides.  ...

...and your use of the word "ever" is what cost me a higher score on the
nanog all-time posting stats just released here.  As of ten years ago, I've
been assured by professional educators that I am up to snuff on the things
one is supposed to learn from a masters' program.  But before that I'd been
completely self taught and there were enormous gaps in my knowledge -- yet
the code and docs I wrote are in some cases still in production use, and I
set and held records for operational uptime as what's now called a "sysadmin",
and I'm having a lot of trouble relating any of that to the presence or
absence of a degree or vendor certification.



[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Leo Bicknell) also writes:

> > Cisco has done an excellent job @ brainwashing the IT 
> > community. The have (unfortunately) set the standard for 
> > "Network Engineers". 
> 
> I'm biased, see .sig, but having been through the process, and seen
> what other vendors (eg, Microsoft, Novell) do with their programs
> I do believe that Cisco wants their certifications to mean something.

I'm also biased, but as I told you when you and I shared a reporting chain,
I never held your CCIE against you since you'd demonstrated competence.  I
have met more CCIE's who were gibbering morons hiding their lack of skill
behind their vendor certification thatn I have met CCIE's who, like you,
probably ended up teaching the teacher a thing or two during "the process."

In 1981 and '82 I worked for Golden Gate University, and part of my job was
as a lab aid for COBOL and database students.  A more earnest crew, I have
never met.  But I can assure you that 19 out of 20 of those students were
going to come out of the program knowing exactly what was required to pass
the tests and get a job, and not one speck more.

Give me someone with the yearn to do and to know and to succeed, and I can
plug them into the right team and get a hell of a lot more work done, than
if you give me someone who has *only* the right letters after their name.

Again, statistically speaking, CCIE has more often indicated moronhood
than excellence, amongst those I have met.  I forgave you yours, but only
after watching you carefully for a couple of months to make sure that CCIE
was an irrelevant accident in your case.
-- 
Paul Vixie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
President, PAIX.Net Inc.

Re: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?

[senthil ayyasamy]

> >programs.  It could be a mix between the CCIE,
> Net+, etc.  Because I know
> >my Comp Engineering program doesn't touch on
> anything related at all to
> >networking, and never even mentions the idea of
> security.  So why not
> >create a focused area for this?
   This is a two cent view from a graduate student.I
have learned a lot of operational issues from this
list (though not this discussion :) ) .
  The curriculum you suggest is something called *body
shaping* where you teach even history students to do
latest stuff required by the companies.My view is a
strong dose on mathematics + data structures + working
knowledge in one language + (his field:
networks,antenna or power electronics) is enough for
exploring any field.I have seen many of my seniors and
my peers who have shined with these basic qualities.
   The current trend is highly interdiciplinary where
you have to apply skill from one field to
another.hence,a base degree is required to do all
those stuff.
  The market for networks ,database or any other field
is varied.Hence,there is always a question of
knowledge Vs skills.If have skill ,gaining knowledge
is easy but the reverse is not true.All certifications
comes under knowledge and basic core qualities
mentioned above comes in skill set.I never view
certifications as secondary but it is an added asset
while the base is always strong mathematical skill.I
dont think one can pass the final cisco certification
without this  basic qualification.
  I can learn something ,If you guys get back to your
technical discussion.Really,I could not have
comprehended many of your discussions without a base
knowledge from my bachelor degree.So,get back to
active discussion for us to learn.

- Senthil


=
Ayyasamy Senthilkumar
M.S.(Computer Networking)
UMKC,MO.
-
An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow 
field.
--Niels Bohr.

__
Do You Yahoo!?
LAUNCH - Your Yahoo! Music Experience
http://launch.yahoo.com

Re: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?

[Bram Dov Abramson]

[EMAIL PROTECTED]:
>Valdis is from VT, so I hope he's listening.  Why
>couldn't we as a networking community sit down and come up with a degree
>program that goes from BS to PhD?  Sure it can touch on basic programming
>and basic processor design, but it would be more heavily weighted towards
>utilizing technologies on the market and creating solutions to the common
>programs.  It could be a mix between the CCIE, Net+, etc.  Because I know
>my Comp Engineering program doesn't touch on anything related at all to
>networking, and never even mentions the idea of security.  So why not
>create a focused area for this?

cf

Internet Engineering Curriculum Repository
http://www.caida.org/outreach/iec/

MEng Internetworking
http://www.dal.ca/~eine/index.html

cheers
Bram

RE: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?

[Patrick W. Gilmore]

At 01:36 PM 5/22/2002 -0500, Paul A Flores wrote:

 >If your resume shows more than 4 jobs in the last 3 years (and you didn't
 >get laid off), what does THAT stay about your ability to 'stick with'
 >something?

That you worked on the Internet in the late 90s?

(Had to post to see if I could overtake Iljitsch van Beijnum. :-)


 >Paul A Flores

-- 
TTFN,
patrick

Re: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?

[Andrew Dorsett]

On Wed, 22 May 2002, Kristian P. Jackson wrote:

> running around acting like network engineers, just as a bunch of network
> engineers are no more qualified to program. Perhaps a bachelors in network
> engineering is in order?

EXACTLY my conceptSo why can't we find some university and develop
this so I can transfer into a program I enjoy

- Andrew
---
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
http://www.andrewsworld.net/
ICQ: 2895251
Cisco Certified Network Associate

"Learn from the mistakes of others. You won't live long enough to make all of them 
yourself."

Re: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?

[Marius Strom]

Also sounds a lot like Texas A&M University's Telecommunications
Engineering Technology degree. (Yes, it says Engineering Technology.
No, it's not a two year associates degree.)  It's currently rich on
voice communications networks, but is picking up tremendously on data
communications.

http://etidweb.tamu.edu/telecomm/tel_index.html

On Wed, 22 May 2002, Pistone, Mike wrote:

> 
> Not to toot the horn of my Alma Mater too much, but Ohio University's
> Communication Systems Management program (www.csm.ohiou.edu) is also along
> the lines of a network engineering degree.  It also focus on other aspects
> of the industry (regulation, comm theory, security, etc) but they all sort
> of flow together.  They were just getting into more hands on networking labs
> when I graduated, I am sure they have greatly improved since then.
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: John Kristoff [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 3:52 PM
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, 22 May 2002 16:40:27 -0400
> "Kristian P. Jackson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > network engineers, just as a bunch of network engineers are no more
> > qualified to program. Perhaps a bachelors in network engineering is in
> > order?
> 
> We actually have that - or something close to it.  We are slowly
> building a bigger networking lab with router-ish stuff for students to
> learn from.  In fact, I'll be handing off full BGP table for them to see
> and play with in the lab.  If you want to help us educate, we'll gladly
> accept any donations, particularly gear, we can get.  :-)
> 
> http://www.cs.depaul.edu/programs/2002/BachelorNT2002.asp
> http://ipdweb.cs.depaul.edu/programs/lan/index.html
> http://condor.depaul.edu/~jkristof/tdc375/
> http://condor.depaul.edu/~jkristof/2001Spr365/
> 
> John

-- 
   /->
Marius Strom   | Always carry a short length of fibre-optic cable.
Professional Geek  | If you get lost, then you can drop it on the
System/Network Admin   | ground, wait 10 minutes, and ask the backhoe
http://www.marius.org/ | operator how to get back to civilization.
   \-| Alan Frame |-->

RE: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?

[Pistone, Mike]

Not to toot the horn of my Alma Mater too much, but Ohio University's
Communication Systems Management program (www.csm.ohiou.edu) is also along
the lines of a network engineering degree.  It also focus on other aspects
of the industry (regulation, comm theory, security, etc) but they all sort
of flow together.  They were just getting into more hands on networking labs
when I graduated, I am sure they have greatly improved since then.

Mike


-Original Message-
From: John Kristoff [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 3:52 PM
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?



On Wed, 22 May 2002 16:40:27 -0400
"Kristian P. Jackson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> network engineers, just as a bunch of network engineers are no more
> qualified to program. Perhaps a bachelors in network engineering is in
> order?

We actually have that - or something close to it.  We are slowly
building a bigger networking lab with router-ish stuff for students to
learn from.  In fact, I'll be handing off full BGP table for them to see
and play with in the lab.  If you want to help us educate, we'll gladly
accept any donations, particularly gear, we can get.  :-)

http://www.cs.depaul.edu/programs/2002/BachelorNT2002.asp
http://ipdweb.cs.depaul.edu/programs/lan/index.html
http://condor.depaul.edu/~jkristof/tdc375/
http://condor.depaul.edu/~jkristof/2001Spr365/

John

Re: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?

[John Kristoff]

On Wed, 22 May 2002 16:40:27 -0400
"Kristian P. Jackson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> network engineers, just as a bunch of network engineers are no more
> qualified to program. Perhaps a bachelors in network engineering is in
> order?

We actually have that - or something close to it.  We are slowly
building a bigger networking lab with router-ish stuff for students to
learn from.  In fact, I'll be handing off full BGP table for them to see
and play with in the lab.  If you want to help us educate, we'll gladly
accept any donations, particularly gear, we can get.  :-)

http://www.cs.depaul.edu/programs/2002/BachelorNT2002.asp
http://ipdweb.cs.depaul.edu/programs/lan/index.html
http://condor.depaul.edu/~jkristof/tdc375/
http://condor.depaul.edu/~jkristof/2001Spr365/

John

RE: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?

[Christopher J. Wolff]

It's easy, just replace your ICU with a RSP8 :)

Regards,
Christopher J. Wolff, VP CIO
Broadband Laboratories
http://www.bblabs.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
Jeff Workman
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 1:38 PM
To: Christopher J. Wolff; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?





Stoned koalas drooled eucalyptus spit in awe as Christopher J. Wolff 
exclaimed:


> I take my new volvo to the local equivalent of "Joe's Garage" for
> regular (3000 mile) service.  Joe is not volvo certified, but they do
> let me watch over their shoulder to make sure everything is perfect.
> The service is a fraction of the cost.  If there was a mistake in
> service, they only ask for their cost for the parts to rectify the
> mistake (This is the 6th car that I've taken to "Joe's Garage".)
> However I do take the car to Volvo for the 3 mile service interval
> (which, in fact, contains no service, only diagnostics).  If Volvo finds
> a problem, I'll take it back to Joe's Garage for the actual repair.

How do I configure my Volvo for BGP?


*ducks*

-Jeff

--
Jeff Workman | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.pimpworks.org

RE: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?

[Jeff Workman]

Stoned koalas drooled eucalyptus spit in awe as Christopher J. Wolff 
exclaimed:


> I take my new volvo to the local equivalent of "Joe's Garage" for
> regular (3000 mile) service.  Joe is not volvo certified, but they do
> let me watch over their shoulder to make sure everything is perfect.
> The service is a fraction of the cost.  If there was a mistake in
> service, they only ask for their cost for the parts to rectify the
> mistake (This is the 6th car that I've taken to "Joe's Garage".)
> However I do take the car to Volvo for the 3 mile service interval
> (which, in fact, contains no service, only diagnostics).  If Volvo finds
> a problem, I'll take it back to Joe's Garage for the actual repair.

How do I configure my Volvo for BGP?


*ducks*

-Jeff

--
Jeff Workman | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.pimpworks.org

Re: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?

[Kristian P. Jackson]

My two cents:

>From what I have found most colleges in the area of the world that I am in
(New England) focus their BCS studies on programing. Completely unrelated to
the area of anything network related. This may not be the case everywhere.
Maybe the industry leaders should assist the education scene in developing a
degree program for future network engineers that beter prepares them for
this field. It doesn't help the industry if a bunch of programers are
running around acting like network engineers, just as a bunch of network
engineers are no more qualified to program. Perhaps a bachelors in network
engineering is in order?

Kristian P. Jackson, CCNP

RE: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?

[Christopher J. Wolff]

Alan,

Thank you for the objective response.  It seems that there is room for
multiple perspectives on this topic.

I take my new volvo to the local equivalent of "Joe's Garage" for
regular (3000 mile) service.  Joe is not volvo certified, but they do
let me watch over their shoulder to make sure everything is perfect.
The service is a fraction of the cost.  If there was a mistake in
service, they only ask for their cost for the parts to rectify the
mistake (This is the 6th car that I've taken to "Joe's Garage".)
However I do take the car to Volvo for the 3 mile service interval
(which, in fact, contains no service, only diagnostics).  If Volvo finds
a problem, I'll take it back to Joe's Garage for the actual repair.

I see your perspective on the HR department.  HR probably deals with
dozens of applicants and the certification is an easy pass/fail
evaluation method.  However, IMHO, there are probably many expertly
qualified candidates that have no paper but are more qualified than the
paper CCNA.  

Regards,
Christopher J. Wolff, VP CIO
Broadband Laboratories
http://www.bblabs.com
 


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of
Rowland, Alan D
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 12:00 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?



While the effectiveness of degree requirements may be argued, they are
efficient. When your HR department gets hundreds or thousands of
applications, they need some way to find the wheat.

The net sector is young and was mostly immune to traditional business
practices. Not all traditional business practices are bad (see
dot.bomb). Lack of business acumen means the days of six figure income
and significant stock options because there were 10 job openings for
every geek who could RTFM are over. Even though the "job market is
coming back" there's still 20 'techies' in Birkenstocks and Star Wars
t-shirts for every (decent) job hiring. Everything else being equal
(which is often the case) a cert or degree is a great tie-breaker.

Welcome to the traditional job market fellow geeks. Remember all the
jokes about Sanitation Engineers? ;)

Put another way, when you take that expensive car of yours in for
service (you do have one if you're successful in this industry, right?
;) ), do you go to Joe's Garage (apologies to all named Joe) or a
dealer/service center with "certified" mechanics?

Just my 2¢. The delete key is your friend.

Best regards,
_
Alan Rowland
(BS in Business and Management, UofM, 1990
"no warranty expressed or implied, use at 
your own risk, may be terminated at any 
time without notice"





-Original Message-
From: Christopher J. Wolff [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 11:16 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?



I would add to that statement:  Requiring a technology certification is
equally as obsurd.  I've been told I could pass the Emperor-Level CCIE
test; however, I do not believe it will add more value for my customers.

Regards,
Christopher J. Wolff, VP CIO
Broadband Laboratories
http://www.bblabs.com
 

Andrew Dorsett said:
*jumping on my soap box*
I have to say that the idea of requiring a degree for the IT industry is
obsurd.  

RE: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?

[Dan Hollis]

On Wed, 22 May 2002, Rowland, Alan  D wrote:
> Put another way, when you take that expensive car of yours in for service
> (you do have one if you're successful in this industry, right? ;) ), do you
> go to Joe's Garage (apologies to all named Joe) or a dealer/service center
> with "certified" mechanics?

I hope everyone knows by now to avoid dealer service centers. They are the 
biggest and shadiest scam operations ever.

Personally, I go to the garage with the best reputation -- not the one 
with the most certifications.

Certifications != honest or even competent

-Dan
-- 
[-] Omae no subete no kichi wa ore no mono da. [-]

RE: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?

[Scott Granados]

Hey now, leave joe's garage out of this and stick to church oriented 
activities.  While your at it have a donut.


On Wed, 22 May 2002, Rowland, 
Alan  D wrote:

> 
> While the effectiveness of degree requirements may be argued, they are
> efficient. When your HR department gets hundreds or thousands of
> applications, they need some way to find the wheat.
> 
> The net sector is young and was mostly immune to traditional business
> practices. Not all traditional business practices are bad (see dot.bomb).
> Lack of business acumen means the days of six figure income and significant
> stock options because there were 10 job openings for every geek who could
> RTFM are over. Even though the "job market is coming back" there's still 20
> 'techies' in Birkenstocks and Star Wars t-shirts for every (decent) job
> hiring. Everything else being equal (which is often the case) a cert or
> degree is a great tie-breaker.
> 
> Welcome to the traditional job market fellow geeks. Remember all the jokes
> about Sanitation Engineers? ;)
> 
> Put another way, when you take that expensive car of yours in for service
> (you do have one if you're successful in this industry, right? ;) ), do you
> go to Joe's Garage (apologies to all named Joe) or a dealer/service center
> with "certified" mechanics?
> 
> Just my 2¢. The delete key is your friend.
> 
> Best regards,
> _
> Alan Rowland
> (BS in Business and Management, UofM, 1990
> "no warranty expressed or implied, use at 
> your own risk, may be terminated at any 
> time without notice"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Christopher J. Wolff [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 11:16 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?
> 
> 
> 
> I would add to that statement:  Requiring a technology certification is
> equally as obsurd.  I've been told I could pass the Emperor-Level CCIE
> test; however, I do not believe it will add more value for my customers.
> 
> Regards,
> Christopher J. Wolff, VP CIO
> Broadband Laboratories
> http://www.bblabs.com
>  
> 
> Andrew Dorsett said:
> *jumping on my soap box*
> I have to say that the idea of requiring a degree for the IT industry is
> obsurd.  
> 

RE: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?

[Rowland, Alan D]

While the effectiveness of degree requirements may be argued, they are
efficient. When your HR department gets hundreds or thousands of
applications, they need some way to find the wheat.

The net sector is young and was mostly immune to traditional business
practices. Not all traditional business practices are bad (see dot.bomb).
Lack of business acumen means the days of six figure income and significant
stock options because there were 10 job openings for every geek who could
RTFM are over. Even though the "job market is coming back" there's still 20
'techies' in Birkenstocks and Star Wars t-shirts for every (decent) job
hiring. Everything else being equal (which is often the case) a cert or
degree is a great tie-breaker.

Welcome to the traditional job market fellow geeks. Remember all the jokes
about Sanitation Engineers? ;)

Put another way, when you take that expensive car of yours in for service
(you do have one if you're successful in this industry, right? ;) ), do you
go to Joe's Garage (apologies to all named Joe) or a dealer/service center
with "certified" mechanics?

Just my 2¢. The delete key is your friend.

Best regards,
_
Alan Rowland
(BS in Business and Management, UofM, 1990
"no warranty expressed or implied, use at 
your own risk, may be terminated at any 
time without notice"





-Original Message-
From: Christopher J. Wolff [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 11:16 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?



I would add to that statement:  Requiring a technology certification is
equally as obsurd.  I've been told I could pass the Emperor-Level CCIE
test; however, I do not believe it will add more value for my customers.

Regards,
Christopher J. Wolff, VP CIO
Broadband Laboratories
http://www.bblabs.com
 

Andrew Dorsett said:
*jumping on my soap box*
I have to say that the idea of requiring a degree for the IT industry is
obsurd.  

Re: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?

[Jim Hickstein]

I once dared to require candidates to submit written answers to three essay 
questions (200 to 300 words), along with their applications.  The questions 
were about the technical subject, but the purpose in asking was to see if 
they could spell, and write in complete sentences.

We did a formal analysis of the job beforehand, and decided that the 
ability to _write English_ was foremost, even ahead of the specific 
technical skills the job also required.  This person dealt with a large 
community of people via email.  (DNS top-level hostmaster for a large 
company.)

We got a good guy.  He's still there.

When I see a resume with more degrees than a thermometer, but even minor 
spelling, punctuation, or other such errors, I throw it out.  Meticulous 
attention to detail matters a lot in this business.

Re: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?

[Richard A Steenbergen]

On Wed, May 22, 2002 at 11:16:24AM -0700, Christopher J. Wolff wrote:
> 
> I would add to that statement:  Requiring a technology certification is
> equally as obsurd.

I think you mean "absurd", a word you should have heard a lot by now.

> I've been told I could pass the Emperor-Level CCIE test;

Emperor-Level CCIE? I don't even know where to go with that one.

> however, I do not believe it will add more value for my customers.

Certifications exist to help those without the knowledge to verify for 
themselves decide if you have clue or if you are just bullshitting. Yes 
I have seen people with CCIEs who could barely route their way out of a 
paper bag, and I have seen people with no certifications who are more 
useful than 100 CCIEs put together. But as a whole, the system works 
fairly well, or companies would not put weight in Cisco certifications.

They can also do a good job telling us the difference between someone who
runs an actual network, vs say a hosting company located in a closet next
to a legacy Global Crossing access pop in Tucson AZ, where they have a DS3
yet claim to have a national OC192 network, and who steals graphics from
reputable companies like GX, EXDS, and CSCO.

http://www.bblabs.com/highspeed.htm
http://www.bblabs.com/data_center_picture.html
http://www.bblabs.com/dedicated_server.htm

-- 
Richard A Steenbergen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   http://www.e-gerbil.net/ras
PGP Key ID: 0x138EA177  (67 29 D7 BC E8 18 3E DA  B2 46 B3 D8 14 36 FE B6)

RE: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?

[Paul A Flores]

What you have to remember is that having a degree or certification allows
the non-clue full out in the 'real' world to easily tell the difference
between you and say, the world's smartest garbage man.

Of course, the upside to that is, you will only wind up working in places
with a high enough clue level to understand your value, hence you will be
happier...

Anyplace that is going to exclude you for a lack of paper, wouldn't
appreciate you for your talents anyway. (in my experience)...

As far as 'degrees mean you are capable of 'sticking with' something', I
would think that a look at someone's employment history for the last 10
years or so would indicate that MUCH better than 4 years of sitting through
outdated lectures...

If your resume shows more than 4 jobs in the last 3 years (and you didn't
get laid off), what does THAT stay about your ability to 'stick with'
something?

Yours in Networking,

Paul A Flores


> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
> Christopher J. Wolff
> Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 13:16
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?
>
>
>
> I would add to that statement:  Requiring a technology
> certification is
> equally as obsurd.  I've been told I could pass the Emperor-Level CCIE
> test; however, I do not believe it will add more value for my
> customers.
>
> Regards,
> Christopher J. Wolff, VP CIO
> Broadband Laboratories
> http://www.bblabs.com
>
>
> Andrew Dorsett said:
> *jumping on my soap box*
> I have to say that the idea of requiring a degree for the IT
> industry is
> obsurd.
>

Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?

[Christopher J. Wolff]

I would add to that statement:  Requiring a technology certification is
equally as obsurd.  I've been told I could pass the Emperor-Level CCIE
test; however, I do not believe it will add more value for my customers.

Regards,
Christopher J. Wolff, VP CIO
Broadband Laboratories
http://www.bblabs.com
 

Andrew Dorsett said:
*jumping on my soap box*
I have to say that the idea of requiring a degree for the IT industry is
obsurd.