Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[Scott Weeks]

: Imagine for a minute that the hosting opportunity 
: for Winter '08 was on Hawaii. Would we even be 
: having this conversation?

I'm all for that one.  I could finally attend and put faces to email.  :-)

scott



--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

From: Mike Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Nanog Futures <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 13:21:55 + (GMT)

On Tue, 27 Feb 2007, Pete Templin wrote:

> Seconded.  Quite recently, there were serious financial considerations, 
> leading to the increase in meeting fees.  Have things turned around so 
> quickly that we have the freedom to resume "experiments" with the meetings? 
> I'm thinking not, since the locations/dates of MERIT40 and MERIT41 haven't 
> been posted yet.

For heavens sake, don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

Has it ever occurred to you that the SC are trying to improve the forward 
planning situation, and this thread is actually one way of doing it?

They have what appears to be a solid hosting offer for 12 months out, 
which happens to not be on the conUS. Therefore, they are actively 
consulting NOW some interested community members on whether it's a goer, 
or whether it needs ruling out at an early stage of the game.

Imagine for a minute that the hosting opportunity for Winter '08 was on 
Hawaii. Would we even be having this conversation?

We asked for involvement, and we got it. We asked to be consulted, we got 
it. Both are a massive improvement over being told about 6 weeks 
beforehand when and where the next NANOG is.

Yet now the SC are being villified for even entertaining the idea of a 
meeting which isn't in the 50 contiguous or Canada.

It seems that some people delight in placing others into a "no win" 
situation.

The fact is, you can't please everyone all of the time.

Mike

Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[Steve Meuse]

Todd Underwood expunged ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):

> this worry about language is certainly an issue, but it's also
> manageable. 

I've spent some time in non-english speaking areas of Mexico. I found that my 
knowledge of Sesame Street Spanish was enough to get by. If we're talking about 
a few days, learning how to order dinner or a beer is easy enough. 

Back to the original point; My company does not have any foreign travel 
restrictions, it is more of a cost/benefit problem. If it were close to the 
same cost as a domestic location, we would be fine. 

I wonder, if we were to venture into a region that had a new audience would the 
PC attempt to schedule more tutorials on Sunday?

-Steve

Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


...It would be most interesting to compare the
attendance from Seattle and Vancouver between the Toronto meeting and
NANOGs 32 and 29 in Reston and Chicago. We know there is a distance
effect, but did the border crossing appear to have a measurable impact?
 



I would bet that it would be more interesting, and more meaningful, if 
you had more than one Canada city in that mix. I would happily attend a 
meeting in Vancouver, CA, but barely considered the one in Toronto. I'm 
very excited that the next one is in Bellevue. Unless it's opposite some 
event that has previous demands on my time, I'll be there. Same is true 
with Albuquerque.


Travel time and inconvenience is significant to me, far more than cost 
(I found the ticket costs to DR to be quite reasonable). On the other 
hand, there are people I know that would be overjoyed to have the 
opportunity to speak out about the particular problems of the area's 
islands, which, by the way, are home to some of the finest coffee beans 
on the planet.


Really, what can this hurt? At worst, you'll have lower attendance. The 
same people who always show, will be there. They might complain, but 
they'll still be there. At best, you'll include members of your 
constituency that are as distant from your regular venues as the 
Dominican Republic is from me. It's got a nice, settled, tourist-driven 
economy, hotels and food are reasonable and pleasant, and it's some 
place new.


--
Any commercial institution that is serious about protecting their
customers from phishing will stop sending mail marked up with HTML.

Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[Joe Provo]

On Tue, Feb 27, 2007 at 06:29:44AM -0600, Pete Templin wrote:
> Martin Hannigan wrote:
> 
> >We already did, and, there are many factors that predispose this to a bad 
> >idea
> >including language.  You can start by lowering the $450 fee if
> >things are so rosy that you have time, energy, and funds to start 
> >transporting meetings thousands of miles away.
> 
> Seconded.  Quite recently, there were serious financial considerations, 
> leading to the increase in meeting fees.  Have things turned around so 
> quickly that we have the freedom to resume "experiments" with the 
> meetings?  I'm thinking not, since the locations/dates of MERIT40 and 
> MERIT41 haven't been posted yet.

Merit has not published the "official locations" yet, as that 
definition includes hotel contracts signed. Betty shared cities 
under discussion that were 'close enough' to let interested 
parties know, and IMO it helps to let interested _sponsors_ 
know which slots are worth tralking about hosting. That list 
of not-fully-contracted-but-highly-likely-to-be list was put
up: http://nanog.cluepon.net/index.php/Current_events

Cheers,

jzp

-- 
 RSUC / GweepNet / Spunk / FnB / Usenix / SAGE

Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[Stephen Wilcox]

On Tue, Feb 27, 2007 at 06:29:44AM -0600, Pete Templin wrote:
> Martin Hannigan wrote:
> 
> >We already did, and, there are many factors that predispose this to a bad 
> >idea
> >including language.  You can start by lowering the $450 fee if
> >things are so rosy that you have time, energy, and funds to start 
> >transporting meetings thousands of miles away.

The meetings are always thousands of miles away for the majority of the 
attendees..

> Seconded.  Quite recently, there were serious financial considerations, 
> leading to the increase in meeting fees.  Have things turned around so 
> quickly that we have the freedom to resume "experiments" with the 
> meetings?  I'm thinking not, since the locations/dates of MERIT40 and 
> MERIT41 haven't been posted yet.

I'm happy to travel to DR assuming the flight costs are similar (as reported by 
Mike Hughes). The overall cost to an individual and to Merit on the face of it 
would seem to be lower which is a benefit too.

I dont think there is any experiment, jared covered this with the comparison to 
Toronto. We just need to make sure that there isnt a general problem with 
travel. So far I've not seen evidence there is.. one person mentioned it could 
be a problem, and Marty was concerned that the baseball might be in Spanish.

There seems some strange side discussions opening up that are completely 
irrelevant.. I suggest we avoid responding to anything but the question asked. 
DR: can you go?

Steve

Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[Joe Abley]

On 27-Feb-2007, at 07:29, Pete Templin wrote:


Martin Hannigan wrote:

We already did, and, there are many factors that predispose this  
to a bad idea

including language.  You can start by lowering the $450 fee if
things are so rosy that you have time, energy, and funds to start  
transporting meetings thousands of miles away.


Seconded.  Quite recently, there were serious financial  
considerations, leading to the increase in meeting fees.  Have  
things turned around so quickly that we have the freedom to resume  
"experiments" with the meetings?  I'm thinking not, since the  
locations/dates of MERIT40 and MERIT41 haven't been posted yet.


The general locations of NANOG 40 and NANOG 41 have been spelt out in  
numerous SC meetings (and reflected in the minutes). It's normal for  
specific hotel locations not to be published until contracts have  
been signed and the room block is open.


NANOG 40 will be in Bellevue, WA, and NANOG 41 will be in Albuquerque  
with ARIN.


And to be clear, nobody is proposing an "experiment" (unless you're  
talking about the business of engaging the community before contracts  
are signed, which I guess is something of a novel phenomenon.)



Joe

Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[Mike Hughes]

On Tue, 27 Feb 2007, Pete Templin wrote:

Seconded.  Quite recently, there were serious financial considerations, 
leading to the increase in meeting fees.  Have things turned around so 
quickly that we have the freedom to resume "experiments" with the meetings? 
I'm thinking not, since the locations/dates of MERIT40 and MERIT41 haven't 
been posted yet.


For heavens sake, don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

Has it ever occurred to you that the SC are trying to improve the forward 
planning situation, and this thread is actually one way of doing it?


They have what appears to be a solid hosting offer for 12 months out, 
which happens to not be on the conUS. Therefore, they are actively 
consulting NOW some interested community members on whether it's a goer, 
or whether it needs ruling out at an early stage of the game.


Imagine for a minute that the hosting opportunity for Winter '08 was on 
Hawaii. Would we even be having this conversation?


We asked for involvement, and we got it. We asked to be consulted, we got 
it. Both are a massive improvement over being told about 6 weeks 
beforehand when and where the next NANOG is.


Yet now the SC are being villified for even entertaining the idea of a 
meeting which isn't in the 50 contiguous or Canada.


It seems that some people delight in placing others into a "no win" 
situation.


The fact is, you can't please everyone all of the time.

Mike

Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[Pete Templin]

Martin Hannigan wrote:


We already did, and, there are many factors that predispose this to a bad idea
including language.  You can start by lowering the $450 fee if
things are so rosy that you have time, energy, and funds to start transporting 
meetings thousands of miles away.



Seconded.  Quite recently, there were serious financial considerations, 
leading to the increase in meeting fees.  Have things turned around so 
quickly that we have the freedom to resume "experiments" with the 
meetings?  I'm thinking not, since the locations/dates of MERIT40 and 
MERIT41 haven't been posted yet.


pt

Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[Joe Provo]

On Mon, Feb 26, 2007 at 03:43:58PM -0500, Martin Hannigan wrote:
[snip]
> Can you make a case of what benefit from a meeting in the DR 
> and who? If you can, I'd be sold, if it was determined to be 
> in NA.

Creating new requirements is interesting. Once the 'Johnny 
Appleseed' spreading of awareness of this Internet thing was 
no longer relevant in the US due to the 'net being mainstreamed, 
please define the "case of benefit" that has been made about 
*any* of the meetings?

Other than "attendees can go, at a reasonable price and with 
reasonable connecivity", what other meeting location constraints
do we have? I can think of three: within the NA footprint,
joint planning with ARIN for one meetinga year, and a host 
that can pay.  

This is not the joint meeting.  Both attended costs and site
connectivity have been subject to initial kicking of tires.  
The impetus for examining the location is a willing host. 
The entire point of this thread was to address the "attendees 
can go" question.  Apparently, some have a specific definition 
of 'NA footprint'.

The assumption that other parties would be offended was 
introduced.  Since this is a group of those who practice
applied science, I think facts are pretty relevant.  Rather 
than speaking for a population, I talked to a colleague at 
LACNIC.  His personal reaction was nothing but positive, 
and he indicated he'd get an official response.

Again, the entire point of coming here was to seek input 
from a sample of attendees about any relevant attendance 
concerns.  I'm glad we've seen some.

jzp

-- 
 RSUC / GweepNet / Spunk / FnB / Usenix / SAGE

RE: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[Mike Hughes]

On Mon, 26 Feb 2007, Christian Nielsen wrote:

One other item to think about, getting Visas to the US is not as easy 
for people from some countries. Maybe this is why you saw an increase in 
Canada.


http://www.traveldailynews.com/new.asp?newid=35191&subcategory_id=96

"Among the major reasons why travelers are not coming to the U.S.: 
concerns about the U.S. visa process and perception of poor treatment at 
the point of entry. The blueprint provides detailed strategies to 
address these important issues, according to Rasulo."


This is a very good point, I know at least one person who went to Toronto 
who wouldn't have attended in the US for such a reason. There had to have 
been more present in Toronto.


One thing I noticed just looking at flights to the DR from the UK, it 
seems that the common route is to route through the US (either NYC or MIA) 
- so some international attendees would still have to do US immigration 
procedures regardless.


However, there seem to be reasonable options going through Paris or 
Madrid, if you're hellbent on avoiding the US.


I'd like to second Randy and Lucy's comments that this would be a great 
opportunity to reach out to the ops community in those areas. As it's 
already been said, this isn't "USNOG", and I'm suprised we've had so few 
meetings in Canada.


Would I have trouble getting travel authorisation myself? Probably not, as 
I work for a small company, like Todd.


But, it would be helpful to know further in advance (like 12 months out) 
if there's going to be a non-continental NA meeting, as that can have 
budgetary impacts on some non-US regular attendees. Plus, the sooner we 
know, the sooner we can book and hopefully get better airfares.


The DR sounds like a good choice as well for this region - it seems 
relatively safe, and doesn't have specific innoculation/healthcare 
requirements beyond common sense.


Cheers,
Mike

RE: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[michael.dillon]

> > > perhaps we saw a huge attendance dip at Toronto
> > 
> > the opposite
> 
>   even for non-canada source?  i'm sure we saw .ca spike, but did
> we see .us dip?

Can we get someone to plot attendee origin cities on a map for several
recent NANOG meetings? It would be most interesting to compare the
attendance from Seattle and Vancouver between the Toronto meeting and
NANOGs 32 and 29 in Reston and Chicago. We know there is a distance
effect, but did the border crossing appear to have a measurable impact?
Also, NANOG 25 was also held in Toronto. Was there a significant
difference in the pattern of attendance at NANOG 39?

Maybe the MERIT folks have access to a professor who can assign this as
a project for stats or market research students.

--Michael Dillon

RE: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[michael.dillon]

> So far I've heard one person suggest that they would have trouble  
> obtaining corporate approval to travel, two people saying 
> that they'd  
> expect no such problem, and one person strongly in favour of warm  
> locations for winter meetings. That doesn't give us much to go on.

That's because this thread is on the NANOG-FUTURES list, not on NANOG
where the 8000 or so potential attendees are to be found.

Even better, you should collect the email addresses of NANOG attendees
for the past two years and survey them formally with a well-thought out
questionnaire that includes questions on a London meeting and holding
meetings in non-English-speaking countries. If you did this then you
would have a much more scientifically valid result than a casual
argument/survey on NANOG-FUTURES.

--Michael Dillon

P.S. I prefer icy and snowy places in the winter. There's nothing like
the squeak of snow at -25 C and your breath turning to frost on your
eyelashes.

Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[Steve Feldman]

We seem to be hearing the same few opinions being repeated,
so I'll add my voice:



  How would this fit with your corporate travel policies?


I don't expect a problem, especially given the expected costs.


  Would you be more or less likely to attend a winter meeting in the
  Dominican compared to soemewhere in the US or Canada? Why?


Equally likely.  I seem to go to every NANOG meeting.  (Though I did  
have

to miss NANOG 4 a few years back.)

I do share some of the concern about holding the meeting in a primarily
Spanish-speaking location, but as various people have pointed out:
  - Montréal wasn't a problem
  - volunteers could assist with translation
and I expect the host would have insight about the potential for local
participation.

I don't believe that the SC or Merit are likely to capriciously place a
meeting in a place like this without performing the due diligence to  
ensure
high chances of success.  Joe's message to this list is part of that  
process.

Steve

Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[Martin Hannigan]

> 
> On Feb 26, 2007, at 11:42 PM, Martin Hannigan wrote:

[ snip ]

> But your arguments about financial considerations are, in your own  
> words, a straw-man.  The _very_first_post_ in this thread said:
> 
> > It appears that we can expect hotel costs to be quite a bit lower  
> > than than at most recent NANOG meetings (perhaps as low as $100 per  
> > night). Flights might cost a little more than they would for a  
> > mainland meeting, but non-scientific poking at the usual travel web  
> > sites doesn't seem to indicate that they would be ridiculous. The  
> > proposal we have accommodates the networking requirements of NANOG  
> > meetings.
> 
> It then asked things like whether you were more or less likely to go  
> to the DR than Canada.  These are perfectly valid questions.  You've  
> brought up some counter-points, but I think we all get the point.  I  
> just don't think we all agree with your PoV.  Which is what makes  
> NANOG so great. :)

I don't disagree that these are perfectly valid questions, but 
let's be fair, the SC did ask for wide opinions. Even if that was
not the intention, what did they expect? 

But good point on PoV. There is not enough participation here
to extract a reliable PoV. These types of things either need to
be brought up in the community meeting, reflected in the record of
the minutes of the SC (still bad) or, when they are brought
here, they are open and transparent, like the raising of the fees.

> Back on topic, I've already said I don't believe the DR will be a  
> problem vis-a-vis travel policies, and I would like to go to the DR  
> for NANOG.  Anyone else wanna answer the questions which were asked?

To that particular question, I am not keen on NANOG doing
anything outside of the english speaking Caribbean. They do
not have to accept a location simply because there is
a sponsor. 

-M<

Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

Patrick W. Gilmore wrote:

Back on topic, I've already said I don't believe the DR will be a  
problem vis-a-vis travel policies, and I would like to go to the DR  
for NANOG.  Anyone else wanna answer the questions which were asked?


Fine. Here's some info:

Travel west to east is always tough.

SEA to SDQ, minimum time is 6am PST to 9:30PM local, with one to two 
plane changes in there, and all the potential for lost luggage. Price 
isn't too bad (I looked three months ahead, so that the flights would be 
reasonable). They average $650 to $750, for two plane changes, and much 
closer to $1000 for only one.


LAX to SDQ, minimum time is 9AM to 9PM (total travel time is smaller, of 
course), same one or two plane changes, lost luggage. Price is better, 
starting at $540, and headed up much more slowly.


SFO to SDQ, looks pretty much the same as Seattle, time and price both 
(makes sense).


There are a whole bunch of people that will be in about the same 
situation. I can't see spending 12-15 hours to attend a meeting, when I 
know one will be closer to me, sooner or later (I'm hoping, for example, 
that the next one is on this side of the Continental Divide). What this 
means for someone who's trying to justify it at work is that there's not 
only the cost of the trip, but two to three extra days of pure down 
time, and not even the fun kind.


Ten years ago I'd have thought nothing of that trip, but the way flying 
is now, you couldn't pay me to do it. Yes, I realize that many people 
who attend NANOG from out of country are making that choice. I just 
can't see it for me, and I suspect that there are enough people not on 
the east coast (NYC and MIA) that would be looking at all that fearsome 
plane changing, and thinking that they'll wait until next time.


It isn't money. It's time.

--
Any commercial institution that is serious about protecting their
customers from phishing will stop sending mail marked up with HTML.

Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[Patrick W. Gilmore]

On Feb 26, 2007, at 11:42 PM, Martin Hannigan wrote:


Incorrect. I think that there are more than just philanthropic
considerations and language is one, as well as financials
being another.


I believe the majority of the list is in agreement.

We all agree that there is more to this than going there to help out  
a poor country.


But your arguments about financial considerations are, in your own  
words, a straw-man.  The _very_first_post_ in this thread said:


It appears that we can expect hotel costs to be quite a bit lower  
than than at most recent NANOG meetings (perhaps as low as $100 per  
night). Flights might cost a little more than they would for a  
mainland meeting, but non-scientific poking at the usual travel web  
sites doesn't seem to indicate that they would be ridiculous. The  
proposal we have accommodates the networking requirements of NANOG  
meetings.


It then asked things like whether you were more or less likely to go  
to the DR than Canada.  These are perfectly valid questions.  You've  
brought up some counter-points, but I think we all get the point.  I  
just don't think we all agree with your PoV.  Which is what makes  
NANOG so great. :)


Back on topic, I've already said I don't believe the DR will be a  
problem vis-a-vis travel policies, and I would like to go to the DR  
for NANOG.  Anyone else wanna answer the questions which were asked?


--
TTFN,
patrick

Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[Steve Gibbard]

Hello from a beach resort in Bali, where APRICOT, our Asia-Pacific 
equivalent, is having its meeting.  It's being very well attended, and 
seems like a much nicer location than the usual set of NANOG locations.


I like the idea of having NANOG somewhere interesting.

-Steve

On Mon, 26 Feb 2007, Joe Abley wrote:


Hi all,

We have had an organisation come forward with a proposal to host the Jan/Feb 
2008 meeting in the Dominican Republic.


It appears that we can expect hotel costs to be quite a bit lower than than 
at most recent NANOG meetings (perhaps as low as $100 per night). Flights 
might cost a little more than they would for a mainland meeting, but 
non-scientific poking at the usual travel web sites doesn't seem to indicate 
that they would be ridiculous. The proposal we have accommodates the 
networking requirements of NANOG meetings.


We would be interested to hear what people think about this idea. For 
example:


 How would this fit with your corporate travel policies?

 Would you be more or less likely to attend a winter meeting in the
 Dominican compared to soemewhere in the US or Canada? Why?


Joe (for the SC)



--
Steve Gibbard   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
+1 415 717-7842 (cell)  +1 510 528-1035 (home)

Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[Martin Hannigan]

> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Feb 26, 2007 at 10:42:00PM -0500, Martin Hannigan wrote:
> > > 
> > > > One of the reasons why these spots are in the LACNIC region
> > > > is language. They don't speak english.
> > > 
> > > OH MY GHOD!  HEATHENS!  let's bomb them quickly.
> > > 
> > 
> > We already did
> 
> seriously?  my family in santo domingo never told me that the US was
> bombing them.  


http://sincronia.cucsh.udg.mx/dominican.html

> this worry about language is certainly an issue, but it's also
> manageable.  apricot/ripe/afnog/etc manage to hold meetigs with
> substantially larger population that is non-native english speaking.
> and there are lots of native spanish-speakers in nanog as well.

I am glad that you acknowledged this as exactly what it is,
a business issue to be seriously considered before jumping into
something that is not well defined or understood. 

[ snip ]

> > It might be smarter to test the waters with a smaller, shorter, meeting that
> > doesn't impact the way we usually do business. At least if we find out that
> > we're not really wanted and nobody local will show up, it won't hurt so 
> > much.
> > We ignored that part of 'our area' until 2007 so holding a mini-meeting is 
> > not going to slow anything down.
> 
> so marty doesn't want to go to a nanog in santo domingo.  


Incorrect. I think that there are more than just philanthropic
considerations and language is one, as well as financials 
being another. 


-M<

Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[Todd Underwood]

On Mon, Feb 26, 2007 at 10:42:00PM -0500, Martin Hannigan wrote:
> > 
> > > One of the reasons why these spots are in the LACNIC region
> > > is language. They don't speak english.
> > 
> > OH MY GHOD!  HEATHENS!  let's bomb them quickly.
> > 
> 
> We already did

seriously?  my family in santo domingo never told me that the US was
bombing them.  

this worry about language is certainly an issue, but it's also
manageable.  apricot/ripe/afnog/etc manage to hold meetigs with
substantially larger population that is non-native english speaking.
and there are lots of native spanish-speakers in nanog as well.

>, and, there are many factors that predispose this to a bad idea
> including language.  You can start by lowering the $450 fee if
> things are so rosy that you have time, energy, and funds to start 
> transporting 
> meetings thousands of miles away.

what rubbish. just as a relevant sampling:

bos <-> sdq is 2663 km
lax <-> yyz is 3492 km
ord <-> sdq is 3134 km
mia <-> sdq is 1362 km
bos <-> lax is 4191 km

lots of people from LA came to toronto (yes, they complained about the
weather.  no, they didn't complain about the distance). many of us
flew to nanog in LA and didnt' complain about the distance.  distance
is an issue, but thousands of miles away it is not.

> It might be smarter to test the waters with a smaller, shorter, meeting that
> doesn't impact the way we usually do business. At least if we find out that
> we're not really wanted and nobody local will show up, it won't hurt so much.
> We ignored that part of 'our area' until 2007 so holding a mini-meeting is 
> not going to slow anything down.

so marty doesn't want to go to a nanog in santo domingo.  point
taken.  cat thinks travel policies and corporate attitudes will be an
issue.  i think jared thinks that, too.  many other people say that
the location sounds really appealing, that the outreach opportunity is
appealing, and that the costs would be overall lower than many
us-based locations.  

joe:  hopefully you're getting good feedback for the sc.

t.

-- 
_
todd underwood +1 603 643 9300 x101
renesys corporationvp operations and professional 
svcs
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   
http://www.renesys.com/blog/todd.shtml

Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[Martin Hannigan]

> 
> > One of the reasons why these spots are in the LACNIC region
> > is language. They don't speak english.
> 
> OH MY GHOD!  HEATHENS!  let's bomb them quickly.
> 

We already did, and, there are many factors that predispose this to a bad idea
including language.  You can start by lowering the $450 fee if
things are so rosy that you have time, energy, and funds to start transporting 
meetings thousands of miles away.

It might be smarter to test the waters with a smaller, shorter, meeting that
doesn't impact the way we usually do business. At least if we find out that
we're not really wanted and nobody local will show up, it won't hurt so much.
We ignored that part of 'our area' until 2007 so holding a mini-meeting is 
not going to slow anything down.

-M<

Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[Todd Underwood]

all,

> >LACNIC is not the equivalent of NANOG any more than ARIN is.   
> >According to  >index.html>, LACNIC covers Mexico.  If a meeting were suggested in  
> >Mexico, would you say NANOG should not meet there because LACNIC  
> >has meetings there?
> >
> >Perhaps the DR is not considered North America, but I thought it  
> >was.  It is closer to Florida than Puerto Rico, which is part of  
> >the US.  If the DR is not in NA, then we can have a discussion  
> >about the applicability of NANOG meeting there.
> 
> Probably the appropriate discussion to have first...
> 
> DR is considered Central America, not North America.
> https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/dr.html

i view this as a mostly silly discussion, but, for context:

the term 'nortemaericano' or 'norteamerica' refers explicitly to the
united states (with almost no thought given to canadia) in the spanish
language as commonly spoken in latin america, including the dominican
republic.  

regardless of what the US cia says, the DR is *not* in central america
(as defined both by dominicans and by central americans).

t.

RE: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[Christian Nielsen]

One other item to think about, getting Visas to the US is not as easy for 
people from some countries. Maybe this is why you saw an increase in Canada.

http://www.traveldailynews.com/new.asp?newid=35191&subcategory_id=96

"Among the major reasons why travelers are not coming to the U.S.: concerns 
about the U.S. visa process and perception of poor treatment at the point of 
entry. The blueprint provides detailed strategies to address these important 
issues, according to Rasulo."



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Todd Underwood
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 9:21 AM
To: Joe Abley
Cc: Nanog Futures
Subject: Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic

joe, all,

sorry to come late to the conversation.

> We would be interested to hear what people think about this idea. For
> example:
>
>   How would this fit with your corporate travel policies?

small company, no problem.

>
>   Would you be more or less likely to attend a winter meeting in the
>   Dominican compared to soemewhere in the US or Canada? Why?

i would be *strongly* supportive of this plan and be extremely likely
to attend.  i'm also happy to provide free english-spanish translation
services (either for written materials in advance or for simultaneous
translation during presentations) since a lot of spanish-speakers in
the caribbean have limited english.

i'm happy to do a fair amount of work to help make this happen and i'm
pleased that the SC is seriously considering the offer.  it is high
time that nanog try to include the parts of the caribbean that have
been marginal players (ocassionally attending the miami nanogs) and
this is an excellent way to go about that).

t.

Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[Todd Underwood]

joe, all,

sorry to come late to the conversation.

> We would be interested to hear what people think about this idea. For  
> example:
> 
>   How would this fit with your corporate travel policies?

small company, no problem.

> 
>   Would you be more or less likely to attend a winter meeting in the
>   Dominican compared to soemewhere in the US or Canada? Why?

i would be *strongly* supportive of this plan and be extremely likely
to attend.  i'm also happy to provide free english-spanish translation
services (either for written materials in advance or for simultaneous
translation during presentations) since a lot of spanish-speakers in
the caribbean have limited english.

i'm happy to do a fair amount of work to help make this happen and i'm
pleased that the SC is seriously considering the offer.  it is high
time that nanog try to include the parts of the caribbean that have
been marginal players (ocassionally attending the miami nanogs) and
this is an excellent way to go about that).

t.

Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[alex]

On Mon, 26 Feb 2007, Etaoin Shrdlu wrote:

> On the one hand, I have to say that if it's my own money, it's not going 
> to happen. It's just too far away (for me). Not considering the plane 
> fare, though, I don't think it's necessarily a bad suggestion. I *do* 
> wonder where all the attendees will be coming from (the local ones, I 
> mean). I know how shockingly impoverished Jamaica is, and we can't even 
> talk about Haiti. I know far less about the Dominican Republic, other 
> than that it's far better off than either of the other two.
Flights to DR don't seem to be much more expensive than coast-to-coast
tickets. And I imagine hotels/food/etc is probably going to be quite a bit
cheaper than LA/SFO/etc.

-alex

Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

Joe Abley wrote:

Can I suggest that the most practical approach to deal with the  
question at hand is not to dwell on geopolitics, but instead to  
address the original question: would attending a meeting in the  
Dominican Republic involve undue hardship to the community, or  
perhaps be difficult to manage for some other reason (e.g. corporate  
travel policy)?


On the one hand, I have to say that if it's my own money, it's not going 
to happen. It's just too far away (for me). Not considering the plane 
fare, though, I don't think it's necessarily a bad suggestion. I *do* 
wonder where all the attendees will be coming from (the local ones, I 
mean). I know how shockingly impoverished Jamaica is, and we can't even 
talk about Haiti. I know far less about the Dominican Republic, other 
than that it's far better off than either of the other two.


So far I've heard one person suggest that they would have trouble  
obtaining corporate approval to travel, two people saying that they'd  
expect no such problem, and one person strongly in favour of warm  
locations for winter meetings. That doesn't give us much to go on.


This is an interesting question. Considering the unrest in neighboring 
Haiti, I'd be more inclined to at least consider it, depending on 
*where* in the nice, peaceful Dominican Republic we were talking about.


https://www.osac.gov/Reports/index.cfm?display=region®ion=3

Close to Haiti? Bad.

https://www.osac.gov/Regions/country.cfm?country=99

The DR itself is no different in problems than, say, Los Angeles (and 
probably safer that some of it). It would probably be lovely. It's a big 
island. Where exactly are you talking about?


--
Any commercial institution that is serious about protecting their
customers from phishing will stop sending mail marked up with HTML.

RE: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[Ray Plzak]

In geographical terms all of the land that is north of South America, ie the 
border between Columbia and Panama and all of the islands of the Caribbean and 
the islands north of the Antilles are North America. There are numerous 
categorizations of the countries that are south of the US and north of South 
America based on language or other factors like economy that produce other than 
geographical terms. By the way the CIA reference that you gave puts DR on a map 
of Central America and the Caribbean which is a cartographic view of the area. 
One should also note that many portions of the Caribbean to not consider 
themselves to be part of Latin America or North America for different specific 
reasons. Bottom line a categorization discussion here is somewhat a wasted 
exercise when we should be discussing how to further the development of the 
Internet in this portion of the world. Many of the problems/issues that are 
seen in other developing parts of the globe exist in the Caribbean.

Ray

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-nanog-
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rodney Joffe
> Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 2:56 PM
> To: Nanog Futures
> Subject: Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic
>
>
> On Feb 26, 2007, at 11:31 AM, Patrick W. Gilmore wrote:
>
> > On Feb 26, 2007, at 1:05 PM, Martin Hannigan wrote:
> >
> >> What reason would NANOG have for holding a meeting in DR? Not a lot
> >> of context. DR is also in the LACNIC region. LACNIC has meetings
> >> similiar to RIPE in content i.e. policy and ops.
> >>
> >> http://lacnic.net/en/eventos/lacnicix/index.html
> >
> > LACNIC is not the equivalent of NANOG any more than ARIN is.
> > According to <http://lacnic.net/en/sobre-lacnic/cobertura/
> > index.html>, LACNIC covers Mexico.  If a meeting were suggested in
> > Mexico, would you say NANOG should not meet there because LACNIC
> > has meetings there?
> >
> > Perhaps the DR is not considered North America, but I thought it
> > was.  It is closer to Florida than Puerto Rico, which is part of
> > the US.  If the DR is not in NA, then we can have a discussion
> > about the applicability of NANOG meeting there.
>
> Probably the appropriate discussion to have first...
>
> DR is considered Central America, not North America.
> https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/dr.html
>
>

RE: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[Christian Nielsen]

Is the question really, should NANOG be held outside the US/Canada?

I put the answer to that as Yes.

There is no reason why NANOG should continue to be held in the US/Canada.

As for 'getting' approval, why should it matter if NANOG is held in St. Louis, 
Toronto or the DR? Maybe people worried about getting approval for resort 
locations show value to their employees for NANOG. There are people where I 
work that no matter what conference they go and attend, they always write up a 
trip report on what they learned. By doing this they show value in attending 
these types of meetings. Are you showing Value or do they perceive NANOG as 
just a 'junket'?

When planning a meeting outside the US, it is also wise to pick places like 
resort towns to hold the meetings. They usually already have the facilities to 
handle 500 - 1000 people. You can also get a better deal. I am currently at a 
meeting outside the US where the Hotel room is $89/night. The same room in a 
major US city would run upwards of $200/night, put the same room in Hawaii and 
you are talking upwards of $300/night!

As for Visas, the Host group usually works closely with the country/tourist 
board to make sure those attending to get required visas. These countries want 
people to come in and spend money.

I am all for DR and Mexico, heck pick Cancun!

Christian

Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[Randy Bush]

> I do care, because if we had a large "local" contingient that
> would not be present in some other locale, eg: DR, PR, etc..

indeed.  we should work to serve them, considering they are
just as first class members as those folk in goddess-forsaken
places such as michegan about which my corporate travel folk
give me pain, "you need to go where?".

let me be very clear about my personal opinion.  if we held a
meeting in havana and 300 folk from the latin and caribbean
part of our family showed and only 100 of us nortes, i would
consider it a success in serving our membership.

> we know that in some locations (eg: bay area) causes population
> spikes.

clearly some of us know that.  others of us look at the actual
meeting attendance statistics for the last bay area meeting and
know that is very incorrect 'knowledge'.  that meeting was a
financial disaster and had very poor attendance.

> If we then have only 200 people attend nanog in DR, I consider that
> a quite serious issue that you're potentially overlooking.

which might be why the sc is asking on this forum.

randy

Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[Jared Mauch]

On Tue, Feb 27, 2007 at 07:43:40AM +0900, Randy Bush wrote:
> >>> perhaps we saw a huge attendance dip at Toronto
> >> the opposite
> > even for non-canada source?  i'm sure we saw .ca spike, but did
> > we see .us dip?
> 
> i have no idea and don't care.  aside from their strange habit of
> saying "eh" every so often, which they seem not to do in email, i
> consider them just as significant nanog participants as residents
> of the united states.

I do care, because if we had a large "local" contingient that
would not be present in some other locale, eg: DR, PR, etc..

we know that in some locations (eg: bay area) causes population
spikes.  If we then have only 200 people attend nanog in DR, I consider that
a quite serious issue that you're potentially overlooking.  This is why
I care what the local (country/city) count is for the last meeting in
Toronto, ON, CA.

- Jared

-- 
Jared Mauch  | pgp key available via finger from [EMAIL PROTECTED]
clue++;  | http://puck.nether.net/~jared/  My statements are only mine.

Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[Lucy Lynch]

On Mon, 26 Feb 2007, Martin Hannigan wrote:




On 26-Feb-2007, at 15:00, Martin Hannigan wrote:




Can you make a case of what benefit from a meeting in
the DR and who? If you can, I'd be sold, if it was determined
to be in NA.


I'll benefit, as will the NANOG community, and all those folks in
the region who may have limited travel opportunities see for example:

http://blog.icann.org/?p=28
http://ninewonderings.blogspot.com/2007/02/internet-workshop.html

I don't see why we should slice and dice the NA community when we
could be extending it.

puzzled -

Lucy


-M<

Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[Randy Bush]

>>> perhaps we saw a huge attendance dip at Toronto
>> the opposite
> even for non-canada source?  i'm sure we saw .ca spike, but did
> we see .us dip?

i have no idea and don't care.  aside from their strange habit of
saying "eh" every so often, which they seem not to do in email, i
consider them just as significant nanog participants as residents
of the united states.

randy

Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[Jared Mauch]

On Tue, Feb 27, 2007 at 07:21:31AM +0900, Randy Bush wrote:
> > I don't know how many people that attended NANOG in Toronto had to go
> > through the "international travel approval" that some of us had to.
> 
> probably not the canadians.
> 
> this is NAnog, not USnog, so that's just gonna be a fact of life.

sure.

> > perhaps we saw a huge attendance dip at Toronto
> 
> the opposite

even for non-canada source?  i'm sure we saw .ca spike, but did
we see .us dip?



-- 
Jared Mauch  | pgp key available via finger from [EMAIL PROTECTED]
clue++;  | http://puck.nether.net/~jared/  My statements are only mine.

Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[Randy Bush]

> I don't know how many people that attended NANOG in Toronto had to go
> through the "international travel approval" that some of us had to.

probably not the canadians.

this is NAnog, not USnog, so that's just gonna be a fact of life.

> perhaps we saw a huge attendance dip at Toronto

the opposite

randy

Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[Randy Bush]

> One of the reasons why these spots are in the LACNIC region
> is language. They don't speak english.

OH MY GHOD!  HEATHENS!  let's bomb them quickly.

this conversation is becoming downright embarrassing.

randy

Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[Robert E. Seastrom]

Rodney Joffe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

>> Perhaps the DR is not considered North America, but I thought it
>> was.  It is closer to Florida than Puerto Rico, which is part of
>> the US.  If the DR is not in NA, then we can have a discussion
>> about the applicability of NANOG meeting there.
>
> Probably the appropriate discussion to have first...
>
> DR is considered Central America, not North America.
> https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/dr.html

Central America is not a continent; North and South America are.
Countries that one normally thinks of as being in Central America are
in fact part of North America.  There seems to be some question
depending upon who you ask whether all of Panama is in fact in North
America.

http://worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/na.htm
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/north%20america

---rob

Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[Joe Abley]

On 26-Feb-2007, at 14:09, Rodney Joffe wrote:


Probably the appropriate discussion to have first...

DR is considered Central America, not North America.
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/dr.html


There are probably more definitions of North America in circulation  
than there have been NANOG meetings.


Geologically speaking, anything in California west of the San Andreas  
Fault is not in North America -- it's on the Pacific plate. "Central  
America" by many definitions is in fact "the southern portion of  
North America". I could go on, but if I do I risk being sucked into  
wikipedia for the rest of the day.


Can I suggest that the most practical approach to deal with the  
question at hand is not to dwell on geopolitics, but instead to  
address the original question: would attending a meeting in the  
Dominican Republic involve undue hardship to the community, or  
perhaps be difficult to manage for some other reason (e.g. corporate  
travel policy)?


So far I've heard one person suggest that they would have trouble  
obtaining corporate approval to travel, two people saying that they'd  
expect no such problem, and one person strongly in favour of warm  
locations for winter meetings. That doesn't give us much to go on.



Joe

Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[Joe Abley]

On 26-Feb-2007, at 15:43, Martin Hannigan wrote:


I'm saying that you don't
have to have a meeting somewhere because someone will pay.


It's not practical to hold a meeting somewhere that we don't have a
host.


I'm not surprised that you resorted to the strawman argument. I
think it's legitimate to suggest that you can say "no"
to a potential sponsor because of location. But you know
this.


I think it's legitimate to say no for many reasons, including  
location, yes.



Can you make a case of what benefit from a meeting in
the DR and who? If you can, I'd be sold, if it was determined
to be in NA.


I can, but I'm more interested in hearing from other people.

To be clear, the exercise here is not to try and sell the idea of the  
Dominican Republic to anybody; the goal is to identify whether  
holding a meeting in this particular location would be a problem for  
many people (recognising that *every* location is a problem for  
someone).



Joe

Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[Martin Hannigan]

> 
> 
> On 26-Feb-2007, at 15:00, Martin Hannigan wrote:
> 
> >> (I realise that because the Dominican Republic is served by LACNIC
> >> you think it's not in North America either; however, you might just
> >> have to acknowledge that others have different opinions about that
> >> and move on.)
> >
> > Then why are you bothering us with this if it's a done deal?
> 
> If it was a done deal, I wouldn't be asking peoples' opinions about it.
> 
> If you're bothered by the question, feel free to killfile the thread :-)


And you are more than welcome to continue not answering 
questions. :-)


> > I'm saying that you don't
> > have to have a meeting somewhere because someone will pay.
> 
> It's not practical to hold a meeting somewhere that we don't have a  
> host.

I'm not surprised that you resorted to the strawman argument. I 
think it's legitimate to suggest that you can say "no"
to a potential sponsor because of location. But you know
this.

Can you make a case of what benefit from a meeting in
the DR and who? If you can, I'd be sold, if it was determined
to be in NA.

-M<

Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[alex]

On Mon, 26 Feb 2007, Joe Abley wrote:

> > Who will benefit from a meeting in DR and how?
> 
> The people who will benefit will be the ones that attend, which is why
> we're trying to gauge the potential impact of the location upon
> attendance.
I personally am strongly in favor of breaking the apparent NANOG tradition
of having winter meetings in a very cold place and summer meetings in a
very hot place.

-alex

Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[Joe Abley]

On 26-Feb-2007, at 15:00, Martin Hannigan wrote:


(I realise that because the Dominican Republic is served by LACNIC
you think it's not in North America either; however, you might just
have to acknowledge that others have different opinions about that
and move on.)


Then why are you bothering us with this if it's a done deal?


If it was a done deal, I wouldn't be asking peoples' opinions about it.

If you're bothered by the question, feel free to killfile the thread :-)


I never said it wasn't in North America.


Correct. You pointed out that it was in the LACNIC region, and then  
went on to draw a comparison with a hypothetical future NANOG meeting  
in the UK. Apologies if I jumped to the wrong conclusion.



I'm saying that you don't
have to have a meeting somewhere because someone will pay.


It's not practical to hold a meeting somewhere that we don't have a  
host.



Who will benefit from a meeting in DR and how?


The people who will benefit will be the ones that attend, which is  
why we're trying to gauge the potential impact of the location upon  
attendance.



Joe

Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[Martin Hannigan]

> 
> 
> On 26-Feb-2007, at 14:39, Martin Hannigan wrote:
> 
> >> On 26-Feb-2007, at 13:05, Martin Hannigan wrote:
> >>
> >>> What reason would NANOG have for holding a meeting in DR?
> >>
> >> Same as for any other place -- it's a location that we received a
> >> good proposal for.
> >
> > If you received a proposal to hold one in London, would we be
> > conducting this excercise?
> 
> No, because London is not in North America.
> 
> (I realise that because the Dominican Republic is served by LACNIC  
> you think it's not in North America either; however, you might just  
> have to acknowledge that others have different opinions about that  
> and move on.)
> 

Then why are you bothering us with this if it's a done deal?

I never said it wasn't in North America. I'm saying that you don't
have to have a meeting somewhere because someone will pay. 

Who will benefit from a meeting in DR and how? 

Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[Rodney Joffe]

On Feb 26, 2007, at 11:31 AM, Patrick W. Gilmore wrote:


On Feb 26, 2007, at 1:05 PM, Martin Hannigan wrote:


What reason would NANOG have for holding a meeting in DR? Not a lot
of context. DR is also in the LACNIC region. LACNIC has meetings
similiar to RIPE in content i.e. policy and ops.

http://lacnic.net/en/eventos/lacnicix/index.html


LACNIC is not the equivalent of NANOG any more than ARIN is.   
According to , LACNIC covers Mexico.  If a meeting were suggested in  
Mexico, would you say NANOG should not meet there because LACNIC  
has meetings there?


Perhaps the DR is not considered North America, but I thought it  
was.  It is closer to Florida than Puerto Rico, which is part of  
the US.  If the DR is not in NA, then we can have a discussion  
about the applicability of NANOG meeting there.


Probably the appropriate discussion to have first...

DR is considered Central America, not North America.
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/dr.html




smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature

Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[Rodney Joffe]

On Feb 26, 2007, at 11:31 AM, Patrick W. Gilmore wrote:


On Feb 26, 2007, at 1:05 PM, Martin Hannigan wrote:


What reason would NANOG have for holding a meeting in DR? Not a lot
of context. DR is also in the LACNIC region. LACNIC has meetings
similiar to RIPE in content i.e. policy and ops.

http://lacnic.net/en/eventos/lacnicix/index.html


LACNIC is not the equivalent of NANOG any more than ARIN is.   
According to , LACNIC covers Mexico.  If a meeting were suggested in  
Mexico, would you say NANOG should not meet there because LACNIC  
has meetings there?


Perhaps the DR is not considered North America, but I thought it  
was.  It is closer to Florida than Puerto Rico, which is part of  
the US.  If the DR is not in NA, then we can have a discussion  
about the applicability of NANOG meeting there.


Probably the appropriate discussion to have first...

DR is considered Central America, not North America.
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/dr.html

Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[Patrick W. Gilmore]

On Feb 26, 2007, at 2:38 PM, Martin Hannigan wrote:

On Feb 26, 2007, at 1:05 PM, Martin Hannigan wrote:


What reason would NANOG have for holding a meeting in DR? Not a lot
of context. DR is also in the LACNIC region. LACNIC has meetings
similiar to RIPE in content i.e. policy and ops.

http://lacnic.net/en/eventos/lacnicix/index.html


LACNIC is not the equivalent of NANOG any more than ARIN is.
According to , LACNIC covers Mexico.  If a meeting were suggested in
Mexico, would you say NANOG should not meet there because LACNIC has
meetings there?


One of the reasons why these spots are in the LACNIC region
is language. They don't speak english. I would say that if
LACNIC has a meeting in a non english speaking location that
we should seriously consider NOT holding meetings in locations
that duplicate effort. There has to be a better reason than
a warm body willing to pay.


One could make this argument for much of Canada. :)



It would make far more sense to hold a meeting in Jamaica[1], or
the rest of the english speaking Caribbean.


Sounds good.  I like Aruba personally.

Can we do it the week before the poker tournament? :)

--
TTFN,
patrick

Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[Joe Abley]

On 26-Feb-2007, at 14:39, Martin Hannigan wrote:


On 26-Feb-2007, at 13:05, Martin Hannigan wrote:


What reason would NANOG have for holding a meeting in DR?


Same as for any other place -- it's a location that we received a
good proposal for.


If you received a proposal to hold one in London, would we be
conducting this excercise?


No, because London is not in North America.

(I realise that because the Dominican Republic is served by LACNIC  
you think it's not in North America either; however, you might just  
have to acknowledge that others have different opinions about that  
and move on.)



Joe

Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[Martin Hannigan]

> 
> On Feb 26, 2007, at 1:05 PM, Martin Hannigan wrote:
> 
> > What reason would NANOG have for holding a meeting in DR? Not a lot
> > of context. DR is also in the LACNIC region. LACNIC has meetings
> > similiar to RIPE in content i.e. policy and ops.
> >
> > http://lacnic.net/en/eventos/lacnicix/index.html
> 
> LACNIC is not the equivalent of NANOG any more than ARIN is.   
> According to  index.html>, LACNIC covers Mexico.  If a meeting were suggested in  
> Mexico, would you say NANOG should not meet there because LACNIC has  
> meetings there?

One of the reasons why these spots are in the LACNIC region
is language. They don't speak english. I would say that if
LACNIC has a meeting in a non english speaking location that
we should seriously consider NOT holding meetings in locations
that duplicate effort. There has to be a better reason than 
a warm body willing to pay.

It would make far more sense to hold a meeting in Jamaica[1], or
the rest of the english speaking Caribbean.

-M<



[1] Jamaica has a very large market in the region.:

Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[Martin Hannigan]

> 
> 
> On 26-Feb-2007, at 13:05, Martin Hannigan wrote:
> 
> > What reason would NANOG have for holding a meeting in DR?
> 
> Same as for any other place -- it's a location that we received a  
> good proposal for.


If you received a proposal to hold one in London, would we be 
conducting this excercise?

-M<

Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[Joe Abley]

On 26-Feb-2007, at 14:13, Aamer Akhter (aakhter) wrote:

This may or may not be of concern, but what are the requirements  
for entry into DR? I'm watching the IETF-prague buildup and there  
seems to be a lot of questions regarding 1) health insurance 2)  
proof of funds, etc. If we do decide to hold NANOG in DR, please  
post the requirements for what would b needed (incl visas etc).


I do not speak for the government of the Dominican Republic :-) but  
from what I can tell:


1. You should not necessarily expect your health insurance  
arrangements at home to work when you are in a different country, so  
extra arrangements might be necessary if you care about being covered;


2. There are no vaccinations recommended for travellers from the US  
or Canada, and no anti-malarial precautions suggested;


3. You would need a passport;

4. Visitors from the US and Canada (and some other places) need a  
visa (called a "Tourist Card") which you get upon arrival for USD 10.


To me, 1-3 have precisely the same implications as for an American  
visiting Canada, or for a Canadian visiting the USA: it's pretty much  
the usual "what do when visiting another country" stuff. So the only  
real difference is the $10 visa that you buy when you land.


The IETF list is always awash with immigration panic on the run up to  
a meeting outside the US. My non-scientific analysis suggests to me  
that most US-based IETF participants don't travel much outside their  
own countries, and that the same is not necessarily the case for NANOG.



Joe

RE: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[Aamer Akhter (aakhter)]

Hello,

This may or may not be of concern, but what are the requirements for entry into 
DR? I'm watching the IETF-prague buildup and there seems to be a lot of 
questions regarding 1) health insurance 2) proof of funds, etc. If we do decide 
to hold NANOG in DR, please post the requirements for what would b needed (incl 
visas etc).

Regards,



-- 
Aamer Akhter / [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Ent & Commercial Systems, cisco Systems

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-nanog-
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick W. Gilmore
> Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 1:32 PM
> To: Nanog Futures
> Cc: Patrick W. Gilmore
> Subject: Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic
> 
> On Feb 26, 2007, at 1:05 PM, Martin Hannigan wrote:
> 
> > What reason would NANOG have for holding a meeting in DR? Not a lot
> > of context. DR is also in the LACNIC region. LACNIC has meetings
> > similiar to RIPE in content i.e. policy and ops.
> >
> > http://lacnic.net/en/eventos/lacnicix/index.html
> 
> LACNIC is not the equivalent of NANOG any more than ARIN is.
> According to <http://lacnic.net/en/sobre-lacnic/cobertura/
> index.html>, LACNIC covers Mexico.  If a meeting were suggested in
> Mexico, would you say NANOG should not meet there because LACNIC has
> meetings there?
> 
> Perhaps the DR is not considered North America, but I thought it
> was.  It is closer to Florida than Puerto Rico, which is part of the
> US.  If the DR is not in NA, then we can have a discussion about the
> applicability of NANOG meeting there.
> 
> Since it is part of North America, and it has Internet networks, I
> don't see anything wrong with having the North American Network
> Operators Group meeting there.
> 
> IMHO, YMMV, etc.
> 
> --
> TTFN,
> patrick

Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[Patrick W . Gilmore]

On Feb 26, 2007, at 11:44 AM, Joe Abley wrote:

On 26-Feb-2007, at 11:39, Cat Okita wrote:


On Mon, 26 Feb 2007, Joe Abley wrote:
We would be interested to hear what people think about this idea.  
For example:


How would this fit with your corporate travel policies?

Would you be more or less likely to attend a winter meeting in the
Dominican compared to soemewhere in the US or Canada? Why?


I'd expect that the company would consider it to be even more of a
junket that it already thinks conferences are.


So, to be clear, you do not expect that you'd be able to come to a  
meeting in the Dominican Republic, but you'd have no such problem  
persuading people to let you go to (say) Los Angeles or San Francisco?


I cannot speak for others, but I do not anticipate a problem doing to  
DR for NANOG.  Think of it this way: They let me go to Amsterdam for  
RIPE :)


Another datapoint, I would very much like to see the NORTH AMERICAN  
NOG have meetings outside the US.  Two in eastern Canada and the rest  
in the US for our entire history is not what I would call diversity  
in host countries.

--
TTFN,
patrick

Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[Patrick W. Gilmore]

On Feb 26, 2007, at 1:05 PM, Martin Hannigan wrote:


What reason would NANOG have for holding a meeting in DR? Not a lot
of context. DR is also in the LACNIC region. LACNIC has meetings
similiar to RIPE in content i.e. policy and ops.

http://lacnic.net/en/eventos/lacnicix/index.html


LACNIC is not the equivalent of NANOG any more than ARIN is.   
According to , LACNIC covers Mexico.  If a meeting were suggested in  
Mexico, would you say NANOG should not meet there because LACNIC has  
meetings there?


Perhaps the DR is not considered North America, but I thought it  
was.  It is closer to Florida than Puerto Rico, which is part of the  
US.  If the DR is not in NA, then we can have a discussion about the  
applicability of NANOG meeting there.


Since it is part of North America, and it has Internet networks, I  
don't see anything wrong with having the North American Network  
Operators Group meeting there.


IMHO, YMMV, etc.

--
TTFN,
patrick

Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[Joe Abley]

On 26-Feb-2007, at 13:05, Martin Hannigan wrote:


What reason would NANOG have for holding a meeting in DR?


Same as for any other place -- it's a location that we received a  
good proposal for.



Joe

Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[Martin Hannigan]

> 
> 
> On 26-Feb-2007, at 11:39, Cat Okita wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, 26 Feb 2007, Joe Abley wrote:
> >> We would be interested to hear what people think about this idea.  
> >> For example:
> >>
> >> How would this fit with your corporate travel policies?
> >>
> >> Would you be more or less likely to attend a winter meeting in the
> >> Dominican compared to soemewhere in the US or Canada? Why?
> >
> > I'd expect that the company would consider it to be even more of a
> > junket that it already thinks conferences are.
> 
> So, to be clear, you do not expect that you'd be able to come to a  
> meeting in the Dominican Republic, but you'd have no such problem  
> persuading people to let you go to (say) Los Angeles or San Francisco?
> 


What reason would NANOG have for holding a meeting in DR? Not a lot
of context. DR is also in the LACNIC region. LACNIC has meetings
similiar to RIPE in content i.e. policy and ops. 

http://lacnic.net/en/eventos/lacnicix/index.html

-M<

Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[Fergie]

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- -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>I didn't go to Toronto (among with some others I know), because 32F in NY
>is still better than 10F there. :)
>

Amen. :-)

Personally, I would be interested in attending a winter meeting
in the Dominican Republic.

- - ferg

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--
"Fergie", a.k.a. Paul Ferguson
 Engineering Architecture for the Internet
 fergdawg(at)netzero.net
 ferg's tech blog: http://fergdawg.blogspot.com/

Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[Lucy Lynch]

On Mon, 26 Feb 2007, Cat Okita wrote:


On Mon, 26 Feb 2007, Lucy Lynch wrote:

I'd have a much easier time getting them to let me go to LA or SF, simply
because they aren't pervceived as prime vacation destinations, beaches
and all.


No beaches in Santo Domingo (beaches in LA and SF, however)


Are we thinking of the same place?

http://www.webcarhire.com/dominican-rep-car-hire/santodomingo-car-rental.htm


yep - car rental - its quite a drive to the nearest beach


(I'm aware that there are beaches in LA and SF - but most corporate
travel folk don't think "SF == beaches" the way they think "caribbean == 
beaches" ... LA - not so much either ;>)


cheers!
==
"A cat spends her life conflicted between a deep, passionate and profound
desire for fish and an equally deep, passionate and profound desire to
avoid getting wet.  This is the defining metaphor of my life right now."

Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[Cat Okita]

On Mon, 26 Feb 2007, Robert E. Seastrom wrote:

[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

I didn't go to Toronto (among with some others I know), because 32F in NY
is still better than 10F there. :)


More like 1F.  When the mercury climbed to 14F, my windshield washer
fluid thawed (yay!).


... and the weather improved after y'all left, too ;>

cheers!
==
"A cat spends her life conflicted between a deep, passionate and profound
desire for fish and an equally deep, passionate and profound desire to
avoid getting wet.  This is the defining metaphor of my life right now."

Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[Robert E. Seastrom]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

> I didn't go to Toronto (among with some others I know), because 32F in NY
> is still better than 10F there. :)

More like 1F.  When the mercury climbed to 14F, my windshield washer
fluid thawed (yay!).

---rob

Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[Cat Okita]

On Mon, 26 Feb 2007, Lucy Lynch wrote:

I'd have a much easier time getting them to let me go to LA or SF, simply
because they aren't pervceived as prime vacation destinations, beaches
and all.


No beaches in Santo Domingo (beaches in LA and SF, however)


Are we thinking of the same place?

http://www.webcarhire.com/dominican-rep-car-hire/santodomingo-car-rental.htm

(I'm aware that there are beaches in LA and SF - but most corporate
travel folk don't think "SF == beaches" the way they think 
"caribbean == beaches" ... LA - not so much either ;>)


cheers!
==
"A cat spends her life conflicted between a deep, passionate and profound
desire for fish and an equally deep, passionate and profound desire to
avoid getting wet.  This is the defining metaphor of my life right now."

Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[Lucy Lynch]

On Mon, 26 Feb 2007, Cat Okita wrote:


On Mon, 26 Feb 2007, Joe Abley wrote:
So, to be clear, you do not expect that you'd be able to come to a meeting 
in the Dominican Republic, but you'd have no such problem persuading people 
to let you go to (say) Los Angeles or San Francisco?


I'd have a much easier time getting them to let me go to LA or SF, simply
because they aren't pervceived as prime vacation destinations, beaches
and all.


No beaches in Santo Domingo (beaches in LA and SF, however)

http://www.surfpulse.com/


cheers!
==
"A cat spends her life conflicted between a deep, passionate and profound
desire for fish and an equally deep, passionate and profound desire to
avoid getting wet.  This is the defining metaphor of my life right now."

Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[alex]

On Mon, 26 Feb 2007, Cat Okita wrote:

> On Mon, 26 Feb 2007, Joe Abley wrote:
> > So, to be clear, you do not expect that you'd be able to come to a
> > meeting in the Dominican Republic, but you'd have no such problem
> > persuading people to let you go to (say) Los Angeles or San Francisco?
> 
> I'd have a much easier time getting them to let me go to LA or SF,
> simply because they aren't pervceived as prime vacation destinations,
> beaches and all.
I think it'll be a different crowd at that NOG - the attendees who write 
their own paychecks will be out in full force, while the corporate ones 
will be probably stiffed by travel policies. Its hard to say whether gain 
in one will be offset by other.

I didn't go to Toronto (among with some others I know), because 32F in NY
is still better than 10F there. :)

-alex

Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[Cat Okita]

On Mon, 26 Feb 2007, Joe Abley wrote:
So, to be clear, you do not expect that you'd be able to come to a meeting in 
the Dominican Republic, but you'd have no such problem persuading people to 
let you go to (say) Los Angeles or San Francisco?


I'd have a much easier time getting them to let me go to LA or SF, simply
because they aren't pervceived as prime vacation destinations, beaches
and all.

cheers!
==
"A cat spends her life conflicted between a deep, passionate and profound
desire for fish and an equally deep, passionate and profound desire to
avoid getting wet.  This is the defining metaphor of my life right now."

Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[Jared Mauch]

On Mon, Feb 26, 2007 at 11:44:27AM -0500, Joe Abley wrote:
> 
> On 26-Feb-2007, at 11:39, Cat Okita wrote:
> 
> >On Mon, 26 Feb 2007, Joe Abley wrote:
> >>We would be interested to hear what people think about this idea.  
> >>For example:
> >>
> >>How would this fit with your corporate travel policies?
> >>
> >>Would you be more or less likely to attend a winter meeting in the
> >>Dominican compared to soemewhere in the US or Canada? Why?
> >
> >I'd expect that the company would consider it to be even more of a
> >junket that it already thinks conferences are.
> 
> So, to be clear, you do not expect that you'd be able to come to a  
> meeting in the Dominican Republic, but you'd have no such problem  
> persuading people to let you go to (say) Los Angeles or San Francisco?

I don't know how many people that attended NANOG
in Toronto had to go through the "international travel approval" that
some of us had to.  I think that's likely the best gauge of likely
attendance.  I know there was a lot of local (Canadian) attendance
for Toronto and folks that hadn't come to one in the past.  If that
population was sufficently large, perhaps we saw a huge attendance
dip at Toronto.  Not sure how much of that is going someplace
cold during winter vs travel policies.  I know of at least two people
who were happy they were wearing shorts that week in a warmer
climate as opposed to being in Toronto.

- Jared

-- 
Jared Mauch  | pgp key available via finger from [EMAIL PROTECTED]
clue++;  | http://puck.nether.net/~jared/  My statements are only mine.

Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[Joe Abley]

On 26-Feb-2007, at 11:39, Cat Okita wrote:


On Mon, 26 Feb 2007, Joe Abley wrote:
We would be interested to hear what people think about this idea.  
For example:


How would this fit with your corporate travel policies?

Would you be more or less likely to attend a winter meeting in the
Dominican compared to soemewhere in the US or Canada? Why?


I'd expect that the company would consider it to be even more of a
junket that it already thinks conferences are.


So, to be clear, you do not expect that you'd be able to come to a  
meeting in the Dominican Republic, but you'd have no such problem  
persuading people to let you go to (say) Los Angeles or San Francisco?



Joe

Re: meeting in the Dominican Republic

[Cat Okita]

On Mon, 26 Feb 2007, Joe Abley wrote:
We would be interested to hear what people think about this idea. For 
example:


How would this fit with your corporate travel policies?

Would you be more or less likely to attend a winter meeting in the
Dominican compared to soemewhere in the US or Canada? Why?


I'd expect that the company would consider it to be even more of a
junket that it already thinks conferences are.

cheers!
==
"A cat spends her life conflicted between a deep, passionate and profound
desire for fish and an equally deep, passionate and profound desire to
avoid getting wet.  This is the defining metaphor of my life right now."

meeting in the Dominican Republic

[Joe Abley]

Hi all,

We have had an organisation come forward with a proposal to host the  
Jan/Feb 2008 meeting in the Dominican Republic.


It appears that we can expect hotel costs to be quite a bit lower  
than than at most recent NANOG meetings (perhaps as low as $100 per  
night). Flights might cost a little more than they would for a  
mainland meeting, but non-scientific poking at the usual travel web  
sites doesn't seem to indicate that they would be ridiculous. The  
proposal we have accommodates the networking requirements of NANOG  
meetings.


We would be interested to hear what people think about this idea. For  
example:


  How would this fit with your corporate travel policies?

  Would you be more or less likely to attend a winter meeting in the
  Dominican compared to soemewhere in the US or Canada? Why?


Joe (for the SC)