Re: [OT] Who uses Linux? (was RE: [newbie] Mandrake...too many apps?)

[the Duchess of the Antipodes]

> A real Linux user you shall surely be Duchess, and if you are in fact
> writing from the perspective of a fifteen year old, a talented writer
> also I would wager.

i'm told my poetry would be exquisite if i could tone down my natural
obscurantism and grandiloquence! ;)

sorry i haven't had time to respond to all the emails people have sent
me in the last couple of days -- i've had the headache from hell, and a
few other things besides. but expect to receive a veritable torrent of
emails begging for assistance in the near future: i just this moment
received in the mail 7.0 from a very generous list-member, and i'm going
to install it this afternoon if it's the last thing i do!

the duchess.

Re: [OT] Who uses Linux? (was RE: [newbie] Mandrake...too many apps?)

[ANTTrunken]

Im a 13 year old nobody who well had all this information from reading pages 
about how goodf linux was. So i was trying to get enough money for for a 
couple months. But first i tried using a shell cause well there i could 
figure out some thingsd i didnt know. Before installing LM i had RedHat 5.2 
back in the day whihc was on my old comp which is now in piece and in thias 
comp. I installed LM 7.1 with lots of ease. I think its alot better then 
Windows. The only problem ive had is that i can get my C-Media sound card 
working so i used oss whihc doesnt seem to want to run out for me for 
sumreason which is a pretty good thing. 

Dan

Re: [OT] Who uses Linux? (was RE: [newbie] Mandrake...too many apps?)

[Andrew Scotchmer]

On Wed, 20 Sep 2000, you wrote:
> > p.s. i have the wardrobe, though! six t-shirts from thinkgeek.com! and i
> > have a stuffed penguin! and i devour slashdot upon a daily basis... oh,
> > god, *please* tell me i'm not a total failure and i have the makings of
> > a "real" linux user...!!
> 
> Anyone with a stuffed penguin is well on his way to being a Linux user
> :-)  I've only got a little rubber one.
> 
> Cheers --- Larry

God how I'm searching for a stuffed penguin.  A big large one that can sit next
to my monitor our to keep my chair warm whilst I make a brew.

Andrew

Re: [OT] Who uses Linux? (was RE: [newbie] Mandrake...too many apps?)

[Andrew Scotchmer]

On Wed, 20 Sep 2000, you wrote:

> 
> But I'm just wondering because, without getting into a flame war, I'm
> surprised how bad the installation of Mandrake is. 

Hi,

Well I'm just your plain user and the nearest I get to any techy stuff is
designing web pages (though I am learning Java and have taught myself some C).

I found the Mandrake installation to be a breeze.  I'm using 7.1 (though
started with 6.0) and just clicked on the recommended installation and of it
went.  It found my 3dfx graphics card,  and the monitor and all I had to do was
click ok at the end.  Easy Peesy.

BTW  I am a complete Linux user having ditched Windows ages back,  now that is
hard for a newbie with all those cryptic messages as to why it crashed ( anyone
know what all those numbers actually meant )

Andrew

Re: [OT] Who uses Linux? (was RE: [newbie] Mandrake...too many apps?)

[abe]

hehehehehe

you are sooo doomed.

I also picked up linux in a whim.  My roommate had a copy of mandrake
5.2 that sat on a shelf for months on end.  One day I bought a new hard
drive and I decided to put linux on it.  I got it installed on the first
try too but I couldn't get my modem working so I didn't use it very
often.  Then I got DSL and downloaded mandrake 7.02 about nine months
ago.  Since then I only use windows to play Half-Life & CS.

My advice is to tackle the things in your install that don't work the
way you want em to one at a time.  In a very short time you will find
yourself answering questions on this list as often as you ask them.



Abe





the Duchess of the Antipodes wrote:
> 
> > But I'm just wondering because, without getting into a flame war, I'm
> > surprised how bad the installation of Mandrake is.
> 
> i'm a 15 year old with no experience whatsoever with anything but
> windows (unless you count the array of prehistoric apples i played with
> at school as a child) , and i managed to install linux on my second try,
> with only a cursory glance through the documentation... i have no doubt
> that it would have been on my first try, had partitionmagic not read the
> free space on one of my existing partitions as a separate partition...
> that threw me into vast amounts of confusion for about half an hour, and
> i dithered with diskdruid for another half hour, before trying fdisk and
> finding it much easier.
> 
> i confess i impulse-bought mandrake a few weeks ago... the macmillan 6.5
> distro; the only linux i've ever seen offered for sale in my little
> corner of new zealand. i saw it and simply had to have it, being a
> wannabe geek. since then i've realised just how out-dated it is, but i
> suppose i'll have to make do until i figure out how to update it...
> which will probably take quite some time, as i haven't gotten much
> beyond setting up kppd (although not correctly; i messed up the dns
> settings, or whatever they're called -- i never seem to know the right
> terms for things).
> 
> this lack of progress can generally be attributed to the fact that when
> i was installing x-windows, it refused to accept settings other than
> 400x600 in 8-bit colour, and with a desktop like that, i can't even see
> whole popup windows. i resolved to do something about it, but haven't
> actually *done* that something yet, because the thought of exposing
> myself to those settings again is enough to make me turn a pale shade of
> green and flee the room... that and i've been busy writing a book, doing
> early spring-cleaning, planning a trip to america and suffering from
> influenza. but as soon as i have time, i *swear* i'm going to learn
> linux. then, *maybe*, i'll upgrade myself from wannabe geek, to
> geek-in-training...
> 
> the duchess.
> 
> p.s. i have the wardrobe, though! six t-shirts from thinkgeek.com! and i
> have a stuffed penguin! and i devour slashdot upon a daily basis... oh,
> god, *please* tell me i'm not a total failure and i have the makings of
> a "real" linux user...!!

Re: [OT] Who uses Linux? (was RE: [newbie] Mandrake...too many apps?)

[Rob]

On Wed, 20 Sep 2000, you wrote:

hmmm,  well   I need a stuff penguin.  Dont have any.  Been a Linux user for
about a month or so and I tell you, I've learn more about how this Operating
System work then I have with Windoze in 5 or so years.  It just so much to
explore and much more Challeging.  And that what I like about Linux.  I get a
lot of free good programs.  and plus  there's a lot of programming tools
available for free than I can with windoze.   I still have a lot to learn and I
dang   I need to get tons of stuff penguins and put them all around my house. 
LOL

Rob

> the Duchess of the Antipodes wrote:
> > 
> > > > p.s. i have the wardrobe, though! six t-shirts from thinkgeek.com! and i
> > > > have a stuffed penguin! and i devour slashdot upon a daily basis... oh,
> > > > god, *please* tell me i'm not a total failure and i have the makings of
> > > > a "real" linux user...!!
> > >
> > > Anyone with a stuffed penguin is well on his way to being a Linux user
> > > :-)  I've only got a little rubber one.
> > 
> > all right. i lied.
> > 
> > it hasn't arrived yet! it ought to have been here with the t-shirts, but
> > some fool forgot to put it in the box! they say they've sent it, but
> > that was *weeks* ago... ::wails:: i don't know *how* i'm supposed to
> > learn linux without a penguin to watch over me...
> 
> 
> > the duchess.
>   ^^^
> Problem is that She's most likely to be like the rest of us Antipodians.
> 
> So used to seeing 4'6" King Emporers wandering through our yards.
> 
> When they're not there you miss 'em - 
> When they are there you can'y miss their mess'n
> 
> Cheers
> 
> 
> -- 
> ICQ# 89345394 Mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> "The number of UNIX installations has grown to 10, with more expected"
> (The UNIX Programmer's Manual, 2nd Edition, June 1972.)

Re: [OT] Who uses Linux? (was RE: [newbie] Mandrake...too many apps?)

[John Rye]

the Duchess of the Antipodes wrote:
> 
> > > p.s. i have the wardrobe, though! six t-shirts from thinkgeek.com! and i
> > > have a stuffed penguin! and i devour slashdot upon a daily basis... oh,
> > > god, *please* tell me i'm not a total failure and i have the makings of
> > > a "real" linux user...!!
> >
> > Anyone with a stuffed penguin is well on his way to being a Linux user
> > :-)  I've only got a little rubber one.
> 
> all right. i lied.
> 
> it hasn't arrived yet! it ought to have been here with the t-shirts, but
> some fool forgot to put it in the box! they say they've sent it, but
> that was *weeks* ago... ::wails:: i don't know *how* i'm supposed to
> learn linux without a penguin to watch over me...


> the duchess.
  ^^^
Problem is that She's most likely to be like the rest of us Antipodians.

So used to seeing 4'6" King Emporers wandering through our yards.

When they're not there you miss 'em - 
When they are there you can'y miss their mess'n

Cheers


-- 
ICQ# 89345394 Mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
"The number of UNIX installations has grown to 10, with more expected"
(The UNIX Programmer's Manual, 2nd Edition, June 1972.)

Re: [OT] Who uses Linux? (was RE: [newbie] Mandrake...too many apps?)

[Alan Shoemaker]

the Duchess of the Antipodes wrote:

[snip]
> since then i've realised just how out-dated it is, but i
> suppose i'll have to make do until i figure out how to update it...
[snip}

duchess you need to mail-order a GPL CD of the latest
version (7.1).  Try this place ,
although the GPL CD (or CD set in the case of 7.1) available
here are priced somewhat higher than in the USA (where I live)
I suspect you'll save a lot of shipping since the above
supplier is in Australia.

Alan

Re: [OT] Who uses Linux? (was RE: [newbie] Mandrake...too many apps?)

[Roger Sherman]

On Wed, 20 Sep 2000, you wrote:
> Just curious, how many of y'all:
> 
>  * are programmer folk
>  * are IT folk
>  * are plain user folk
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I really like Linux and hope it flourishes.  And I'm not
> saying that Linux sucks in any way!
> 
> But I'm just wondering because, without getting into a flame war, I'm
> surprised how bad the installation of Mandrake is. I got Mandrake because it
> was supposed to be the most friendly distribution to install and no doubt
> it's better than RedHat or Debian and for all intents and purpose it's a
> good installation process.  But some of the questions the installer would
> ask were just confounding to a new user and the method that you select
> packages were a bit disconcerting.  I know that Linux is not for the timid,
> but there seem to be just little things that could be changed to faciliate
> the whole "experience."  I doubt a first time Linux user would click on
> Expert, the "psychology" of Linux seems a little wacked but I guess it's not
> an OS that's intended for the general population.
> 
> Let me reiterate: Don't get me wrong, I really like Linux and hope it
> flourishes.  And I'm not saying that Linux sucks in any way!

I'm suprised to hear of your installation troubles...I'm completely ignorant of
Linux and its procedures (as Im willing to bet many on this list could attest
to  ;-)), but the install was a snap...I just did the recommended install, and
let it do as it pleased...



> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: patrick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 2:34 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [newbie] Mandrake...too many apps?
> 
> 
> On Mon, 18 Sep 2000, you wrote:
> > Have you tried doing an expert install and selecting the applications
> > yourself ? That way, you know exctly what you have installed on your
> > system.
> > 
> > cheers,
> > philomena
> 
> yea, theres about a thousand of em. have fun :)
> 
> > 
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > > 
> > > One of the few things I don't care for with Mandrake is the large number
> > > of apps it installs by default that are of little use to me. Couple this
> > > the seeming all or nothing selection process and
> > > the lack of documnetation (that I can find) on exactly what is included
> > > in the Misc category or not installed with the available
> > > percentage of options and I always wind up with a very cluttered menu
> > > stucture. I was wondering if the boxed set includes any more app
> > > selection information...if so it would certinly be worth the price to
> > > me.
> > > --
> > > Paul Bary
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-- 

peace,

Rog
http://www.slammingrooves.com

Re: [OT] Who uses Linux? (was RE: [newbie] Mandrake...too many apps?)

[Mwinold]

i thought i knew everything about computers until i met up with linux!


In a message dated 20-Sep-00 09:19:26 Central Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<<  I doubt a first time Linux user would click on
 Expert, the "psychology" of Linux seems a little wacked but I guess it's not
 an OS that's intended for the general population. >>

Re: [OT] Who uses Linux? (was RE: [newbie] Mandrake...too many apps?)

[Larry Marshall]

> About the only time that I have to go to that other O/S is when I need to
> scan something as I have a Umax Astra 1220U Scanner and the USB Scanners
> aren't quite there yet in Linux :-( but they'll get there -- I am
> confident of that!

Patti, it's advertised that 7.1 has improved USB support.  Are you
using that?  Just curious about how good it is.  Have you seen drivers
for Astra 1220P scanners?  That's my next challenge I think.

> When Larry first started with Linux I got him one of those plastic
> penguins and quickly upgraded to a stuffed penguin. Now I have a
> collection of crystal penguins and a whole shelf just for them in my
> curio cabinet.

I don't think much of the Gnome foot but that penguin is one of the
best logos I've seen for any product.  The cute factor is off the
scale.

> Oh, my Linux online bible is http://mandrakeuser.org (which I have said

Wonder how I missed this one.  Great pointer...thanks.

Cheers -- Larry

Re: [OT] Who uses Linux? (was RE: [newbie] Mandrake...too many apps?)

[Oliver L. Plaine Jr.]

On Thu, 21 Sep 2000 05:12:17 +1200,Duchess wrote:

>p.s. i have the wardrobe, though! six t-shirts from thinkgeek.com! and i
>have a stuffed penguin! and i devour slashdot upon a daily basis... oh,
>god, *please* tell me i'm not a total failure and i have the makings of
>a "real" linux user...!!

Wed, 20 Sep 2000  15:27:45

A real Linux user you shall surely be Duchess, and if you are in fact
writing from the perspective of a fifteen year old, a talented writer
also I would wager.

Olly P
Biloxi
Mississippi

Re: [OT] Who uses Linux? (was RE: [newbie] Mandrake...too many apps?)

[Philomena]

ah.. to be 15... :-)  and its not possible to be a total failure at that 
age - nor at any age !

I think you're doing fine - just calm down, chill and take a dp breath 
and you'll be able to tackle your display problem. You haven't had fun yet 
until you get the huge white cursor that takes up 3/4 of your screen :-D

cheers,
philomena

p.s. I have a stuffed penguin too - given to me by a friend who conned it 
out of the linuxmall people at the linux expo in nyc last Feb

At 05:12 AM 9/21/2000 +1200, you wrote:
> > But I'm just wondering because, without getting into a flame war, I'm
> > surprised how bad the installation of Mandrake is.
>
>i'm a 15 year old with no experience whatsoever with anything but
>windows (unless you count the array of prehistoric apples i played with
>at school as a child) , and i managed to install linux on my second try,
>with only a cursory glance through the documentation... i have no doubt
>that it would have been on my first try, had partitionmagic not read the
>free space on one of my existing partitions as a separate partition...
>that threw me into vast amounts of confusion for about half an hour, and
>i dithered with diskdruid for another half hour, before trying fdisk and
>finding it much easier.
>
>i confess i impulse-bought mandrake a few weeks ago... the macmillan 6.5
>distro; the only linux i've ever seen offered for sale in my little
>corner of new zealand. i saw it and simply had to have it, being a
>wannabe geek. since then i've realised just how out-dated it is, but i
>suppose i'll have to make do until i figure out how to update it...
>which will probably take quite some time, as i haven't gotten much
>beyond setting up kppd (although not correctly; i messed up the dns
>settings, or whatever they're called -- i never seem to know the right
>terms for things).
>
>this lack of progress can generally be attributed to the fact that when
>i was installing x-windows, it refused to accept settings other than
>400x600 in 8-bit colour, and with a desktop like that, i can't even see
>whole popup windows. i resolved to do something about it, but haven't
>actually *done* that something yet, because the thought of exposing
>myself to those settings again is enough to make me turn a pale shade of
>green and flee the room... that and i've been busy writing a book, doing
>early spring-cleaning, planning a trip to america and suffering from
>influenza. but as soon as i have time, i *swear* i'm going to learn
>linux. then, *maybe*, i'll upgrade myself from wannabe geek, to
>geek-in-training...
>
>the duchess.
>
>p.s. i have the wardrobe, though! six t-shirts from thinkgeek.com! and i
>have a stuffed penguin! and i devour slashdot upon a daily basis... oh,
>god, *please* tell me i'm not a total failure and i have the makings of
>a "real" linux user...!!

Re: [OT] Who uses Linux? (was RE: [newbie] Mandrake...too many apps?)

[Larry Marshall]

> p.s. i have the wardrobe, though! six t-shirts from thinkgeek.com! and i
> have a stuffed penguin! and i devour slashdot upon a daily basis... oh,
> god, *please* tell me i'm not a total failure and i have the makings of
> a "real" linux user...!!

Anyone with a stuffed penguin is well on his way to being a Linux user
:-)  I've only got a little rubber one.

Cheers --- Larry

Re: [OT] Who uses Linux? (was RE: [newbie] Mandrake...too many apps?)

[Larry Marshall]

Mark Johnson wrote:
> 
> Agreed.  I think my use of "bad" was inappropriate...

Mark, I've been critical of "Linux" too.  My criticisms have been
directed at the marketeers and/or the press who are telling unknowing
computer users that Linux is a drop-in replacement for Windows.  I
suspect it might be someday but right now it's not.  That said, I
hardly use Windows any more.  In fact, if upsets me when I've got to
drop out of Linux to do some in Windoze as my uptime counter goes to
zero :-)

Cheers --- Larry

Re: [OT] Who uses Linux? (was RE: [newbie] Mandrake...too many apps?)

[the Duchess of the Antipodes]

> But I'm just wondering because, without getting into a flame war, I'm
> surprised how bad the installation of Mandrake is.

i'm a 15 year old with no experience whatsoever with anything but
windows (unless you count the array of prehistoric apples i played with
at school as a child) , and i managed to install linux on my second try,
with only a cursory glance through the documentation... i have no doubt
that it would have been on my first try, had partitionmagic not read the
free space on one of my existing partitions as a separate partition...
that threw me into vast amounts of confusion for about half an hour, and
i dithered with diskdruid for another half hour, before trying fdisk and
finding it much easier.

i confess i impulse-bought mandrake a few weeks ago... the macmillan 6.5
distro; the only linux i've ever seen offered for sale in my little
corner of new zealand. i saw it and simply had to have it, being a
wannabe geek. since then i've realised just how out-dated it is, but i
suppose i'll have to make do until i figure out how to update it...
which will probably take quite some time, as i haven't gotten much
beyond setting up kppd (although not correctly; i messed up the dns
settings, or whatever they're called -- i never seem to know the right
terms for things). 

this lack of progress can generally be attributed to the fact that when
i was installing x-windows, it refused to accept settings other than
400x600 in 8-bit colour, and with a desktop like that, i can't even see
whole popup windows. i resolved to do something about it, but haven't
actually *done* that something yet, because the thought of exposing
myself to those settings again is enough to make me turn a pale shade of
green and flee the room... that and i've been busy writing a book, doing
early spring-cleaning, planning a trip to america and suffering from
influenza. but as soon as i have time, i *swear* i'm going to learn
linux. then, *maybe*, i'll upgrade myself from wannabe geek, to
geek-in-training...

the duchess.

p.s. i have the wardrobe, though! six t-shirts from thinkgeek.com! and i
have a stuffed penguin! and i devour slashdot upon a daily basis... oh,
god, *please* tell me i'm not a total failure and i have the makings of
a "real" linux user...!!

RE: [OT] Who uses Linux? (was RE: [newbie] Mandrake...too many apps?)

[Bigelow . Mike]

Hi!  I'm new to the list (today)

I did a little survey on the Rutgers linux-newbie mailing list 
a while back.

The results were interesting 

Most are male 
Most 25 - 40
Most had a wide range (years)of detailed computer experience (DOS, Unix,
WinXX, OS/2)
  (hence the guts to try something new)

Me?
Male
Forty-something
DOS, Windows 3.1 through Win98 (using since the late '80's)
Light putz programming, Basic, Pascal, C/C++ and Java.
(re)Build/upgrade my own computer and support others in neighborhood.

I think you find that most are at my (minimal) level or significantly
higher (admins etc.).  Most have a need or urge to peek under the 'hood'.

I love Linux and its power but will be the first to admit that it is not
for the simple user who wants to turn on the power and type a letter (yet).
It IS getting better by the day though.  

-Mike

Re: [OT] Who uses Linux? (was RE: [newbie] Mandrake...too many apps?)

[Philomena]

Yup, I'm sort of  am assuming that if you know how to get to the FTP sites 
(even tucows), download and burn the ISO images, then the install of 
Mandrake couldn't be all that difficult. But, that is purely an assumption.

I too downloaded a bunch of distros to try out, and most of my co-workers 
think I'm nuts !
philomena

At 11:20 AM 9/20/2000 -0400, you wrote:
>Now you peaked my interest, why wouldn't a new user dwnload the ISO image 
>from the ftp site? I dwnloaded and burned 6 different flavors of the Linux 
>OS that I thought were worth giving a try. Unless you mean by new user 
>"someone that is totally new to computers"
>
>Lyn
>
>At 10:28 AM 9/20/2000 -0400, you wrote:
>>I fall into the "used to be a programmer and unfortunately fell up into 
>>management" type, but I still try to keep myself current.
>>
>>I'm curious also - what type of question during the install would you 
>>think is confounding to a new user ? It seems to me that every question 
>>during the installs at any level are clearly outlined in the 
>>documentation you get with the software. I doubt a new user would be 
>>downloading the distro from an FTP site, so I am guessing the package was 
>>purchased. Seemed to me that you can click on a few options and then go 
>>away and come back to find the OS just about installed. What do you see 
>>as being difficult ?
>>
>>cheers,
>>philomena
>>
>>
>>At 09:11 AM 9/20/2000 -0500, you wrote:
>>>Just curious, how many of y'all:
>>>
>>>  * are programmer folk
>>>  * are IT folk
>>>  * are plain user folk
>>>
>>>Don't get me wrong, I really like Linux and hope it flourishes.  And I'm not
>>>saying that Linux sucks in any way!
>>>
>>>But I'm just wondering because, without getting into a flame war, I'm
>>>surprised how bad the installation of Mandrake is. I got Mandrake because it
>>>was supposed to be the most friendly distribution to install and no doubt
>>>it's better than RedHat or Debian and for all intents and purpose it's a
>>>good installation process.  But some of the questions the installer would
>>>ask were just confounding to a new user and the method that you select
>>>packages were a bit disconcerting.  I know that Linux is not for the timid,
>>>but there seem to be just little things that could be changed to faciliate
>>>the whole "experience."  I doubt a first time Linux user would click on
>>>Expert, the "psychology" of Linux seems a little wacked but I guess it's not
>>>an OS that's intended for the general population.
>>>
>>>Let me reiterate: Don't get me wrong, I really like Linux and hope it
>>>flourishes.  And I'm not saying that Linux sucks in any way!
>>>
>>>
>>>-Original Message-
>>>From: patrick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>>>Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 2:34 PM
>>>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>Subject: Re: [newbie] Mandrake...too many apps?
>>>
>>>
>>>On Mon, 18 Sep 2000, you wrote:
>>> > Have you tried doing an expert install and selecting the applications
>>> > yourself ? That way, you know exctly what you have installed on your
>>> > system.
>>> >
>>> > cheers,
>>> > philomena
>>>
>>>yea, theres about a thousand of em. have fun :)
>>>
>>> >
>>> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>> > >
>>> > > One of the few things I don't care for with Mandrake is the large 
>>> number
>>> > > of apps it installs by default that are of little use to me. Couple 
>>> this
>>> > > the seeming all or nothing selection process and
>>> > > the lack of documnetation (that I can find) on exactly what is included
>>> > > in the Misc category or not installed with the available
>>> > > percentage of options and I always wind up with a very cluttered menu
>>> > > stucture. I was wondering if the boxed set includes any more app
>>> > > selection information...if so it would certinly be worth the price to
>>> > > me.
>>> > > --
>>> > > Paul Bary
>>> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>

Re: [OT] Who uses Linux? (was RE: [newbie] Mandrake...too many apps?)

[KRITZBERG DAVID OWEN]

I'm a economics phd student--I write in LaTeX and do some light
programming so Linux is nicer than Windows for me. 

-
David Owen Kritzberg (david.kritzberg-at-colorado.edu)
Department of Economics, University of Colorado at Boulder
Campus Box 256, Boulder CO 80309-0256
Tel: 303-492-7709 Fax: 303-492-8960
On Wed, 20 Sep 2000, Adam wrote:

> i'm a cross between geek/programmer/plain folk
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "Mark Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "LinuxNewbie (E-mail)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2000 10:11 AM
> Subject: [OT] Who uses Linux? (was RE: [newbie] Mandrake...too many apps?)
> 
> 
> > Just curious, how many of y'all:
> >
> >  * are programmer folk
> >  * are IT folk
> >  * are plain user folk
> >
> > Don't get me wrong, I really like Linux and hope it flourishes.  And I'm
> not
> > saying that Linux sucks in any way!
> >
> > But I'm just wondering because, without getting into a flame war, I'm
> > surprised how bad the installation of Mandrake is. I got Mandrake because
> it
> > was supposed to be the most friendly distribution to install and no doubt
> > it's better than RedHat or Debian and for all intents and purpose it's a
> > good installation process.  But some of the questions the installer would
> > ask were just confounding to a new user and the method that you select
> > packages were a bit disconcerting.  I know that Linux is not for the
> timid,
> > but there seem to be just little things that could be changed to faciliate
> > the whole "experience."  I doubt a first time Linux user would click on
> > Expert, the "psychology" of Linux seems a little wacked but I guess it's
> not
> > an OS that's intended for the general population.
> >
> > Let me reiterate: Don't get me wrong, I really like Linux and hope it
> > flourishes.  And I'm not saying that Linux sucks in any way!
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: patrick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 2:34 PM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: [newbie] Mandrake...too many apps?
> >
> >
> > On Mon, 18 Sep 2000, you wrote:
> > > Have you tried doing an expert install and selecting the applications
> > > yourself ? That way, you know exctly what you have installed on your
> > > system.
> > >
> > > cheers,
> > > philomena
> >
> > yea, theres about a thousand of em. have fun :)
> >
> > >
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > > >
> > > > One of the few things I don't care for with Mandrake is the large
> number
> > > > of apps it installs by default that are of little use to me. Couple
> this
> > > > the seeming all or nothing selection process and
> > > > the lack of documnetation (that I can find) on exactly what is
> included
> > > > in the Misc category or not installed with the available
> > > > percentage of options and I always wind up with a very cluttered menu
> > > > stucture. I was wondering if the boxed set includes any more app
> > > > selection information...if so it would certinly be worth the price to
> > > > me.
> > > > --
> > > > Paul Bary
> > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 

Re: [OT] Who uses Linux? (was RE: [newbie] Mandrake...too many apps?)

[Adam]

i'm a cross between geek/programmer/plain folk

- Original Message -
From: "Mark Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "LinuxNewbie (E-mail)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2000 10:11 AM
Subject: [OT] Who uses Linux? (was RE: [newbie] Mandrake...too many apps?)


> Just curious, how many of y'all:
>
>  * are programmer folk
>  * are IT folk
>  * are plain user folk
>
> Don't get me wrong, I really like Linux and hope it flourishes.  And I'm
not
> saying that Linux sucks in any way!
>
> But I'm just wondering because, without getting into a flame war, I'm
> surprised how bad the installation of Mandrake is. I got Mandrake because
it
> was supposed to be the most friendly distribution to install and no doubt
> it's better than RedHat or Debian and for all intents and purpose it's a
> good installation process.  But some of the questions the installer would
> ask were just confounding to a new user and the method that you select
> packages were a bit disconcerting.  I know that Linux is not for the
timid,
> but there seem to be just little things that could be changed to faciliate
> the whole "experience."  I doubt a first time Linux user would click on
> Expert, the "psychology" of Linux seems a little wacked but I guess it's
not
> an OS that's intended for the general population.
>
> Let me reiterate: Don't get me wrong, I really like Linux and hope it
> flourishes.  And I'm not saying that Linux sucks in any way!
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: patrick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 2:34 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [newbie] Mandrake...too many apps?
>
>
> On Mon, 18 Sep 2000, you wrote:
> > Have you tried doing an expert install and selecting the applications
> > yourself ? That way, you know exctly what you have installed on your
> > system.
> >
> > cheers,
> > philomena
>
> yea, theres about a thousand of em. have fun :)
>
> >
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > >
> > > One of the few things I don't care for with Mandrake is the large
number
> > > of apps it installs by default that are of little use to me. Couple
this
> > > the seeming all or nothing selection process and
> > > the lack of documnetation (that I can find) on exactly what is
included
> > > in the Misc category or not installed with the available
> > > percentage of options and I always wind up with a very cluttered menu
> > > stucture. I was wondering if the boxed set includes any more app
> > > selection information...if so it would certinly be worth the price to
> > > me.
> > > --
> > > Paul Bary
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
>
>

Re: [OT] Who uses Linux? (was RE: [newbie] Mandrake...too many apps?)

[Larry Marshall]

> all -- because I don't know how many megabytes I want, all I knew was that I wanted 
>packages A, B, and C.  I just accepted the default and then it told

I find that question odd as well.  I suspect it's a subtle notice of
how much stuff you've selected but it's too subtle :-)  The app
selection process could certainly be made more effective.

Cheers --- Larry

RE: [OT] Who uses Linux? (was RE: [newbie] Mandrake...too many apps?)

[Mark Johnson]

Agreed.  I think my use of "bad" was inappropriate...

-Original Message-
From: Larry Marshall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2000 10:03 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [OT] Who uses Linux? (was RE: [newbie] Mandrake...too many
apps?)

[..snip...]

That said, the various Linux distribution folks are working on making
it easier, adding lots of graphical interface stuff to automate setup
and such.  You're probably right that they haven't gotten it
completely right yet.  

What is safe to say is that if you expect Linux to be like Windows,
you should stick with Windows cuz it will never be.  Linux is a
multi-user, multi-tasking operating system that is lean and mean and
definitely puts more power on your desktop.  The price you pay is the
need to learn/know a lot more about your computer than you have while
running Windows.  You must decide whether you want the power and
freedom that Linux provides and are willing to expend the effort
(significant) to learn it.  

> But I'm just wondering because, without getting into a flame war, I'm
> surprised how bad the installation of Mandrake is. I got Mandrake because 

[...snip...]

Re: [OT] Who uses Linux? (was RE: [newbie] Mandrake...too many apps?)

[direwoof]

Now you peaked my interest, why wouldn't a new user dwnload the ISO image 
from the ftp site? I dwnloaded and burned 6 different flavors of the Linux 
OS that I thought were worth giving a try. Unless you mean by new user 
"someone that is totally new to computers"

Lyn

At 10:28 AM 9/20/2000 -0400, you wrote:
>I fall into the "used to be a programmer and unfortunately fell up into 
>management" type, but I still try to keep myself current.
>
>I'm curious also - what type of question during the install would you 
>think is confounding to a new user ? It seems to me that every question 
>during the installs at any level are clearly outlined in the documentation 
>you get with the software. I doubt a new user would be downloading the 
>distro from an FTP site, so I am guessing the package was purchased. 
>Seemed to me that you can click on a few options and then go away and come 
>back to find the OS just about installed. What do you see as being difficult ?
>
>cheers,
>philomena
>
>
>At 09:11 AM 9/20/2000 -0500, you wrote:
>>Just curious, how many of y'all:
>>
>>  * are programmer folk
>>  * are IT folk
>>  * are plain user folk
>>
>>Don't get me wrong, I really like Linux and hope it flourishes.  And I'm not
>>saying that Linux sucks in any way!
>>
>>But I'm just wondering because, without getting into a flame war, I'm
>>surprised how bad the installation of Mandrake is. I got Mandrake because it
>>was supposed to be the most friendly distribution to install and no doubt
>>it's better than RedHat or Debian and for all intents and purpose it's a
>>good installation process.  But some of the questions the installer would
>>ask were just confounding to a new user and the method that you select
>>packages were a bit disconcerting.  I know that Linux is not for the timid,
>>but there seem to be just little things that could be changed to faciliate
>>the whole "experience."  I doubt a first time Linux user would click on
>>Expert, the "psychology" of Linux seems a little wacked but I guess it's not
>>an OS that's intended for the general population.
>>
>>Let me reiterate: Don't get me wrong, I really like Linux and hope it
>>flourishes.  And I'm not saying that Linux sucks in any way!
>>
>>
>>-Original Message-
>>From: patrick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>>Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 2:34 PM
>>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>Subject: Re: [newbie] Mandrake...too many apps?
>>
>>
>>On Mon, 18 Sep 2000, you wrote:
>> > Have you tried doing an expert install and selecting the applications
>> > yourself ? That way, you know exctly what you have installed on your
>> > system.
>> >
>> > cheers,
>> > philomena
>>
>>yea, theres about a thousand of em. have fun :)
>>
>> >
>> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> > >
>> > > One of the few things I don't care for with Mandrake is the large number
>> > > of apps it installs by default that are of little use to me. Couple this
>> > > the seeming all or nothing selection process and
>> > > the lack of documnetation (that I can find) on exactly what is included
>> > > in the Misc category or not installed with the available
>> > > percentage of options and I always wind up with a very cluttered menu
>> > > stucture. I was wondering if the boxed set includes any more app
>> > > selection information...if so it would certinly be worth the price to
>> > > me.
>> > > --
>> > > Paul Bary
>> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>

RE: [OT] Who uses Linux? (was RE: [newbie] Mandrake...too many apps?)

[Mark Johnson]

Specifically, what was mostly confusing was after I selected that various
packages it asked me how many megabytes of the selected packages I wanted
install with a slider bar to adjust the "level" I guess. I didn't get it at
all -- because I don't know how many megabytes I want, all I knew was that I
wanted packages A, B, and C.  I just accepted the default and then it told
me I might not get all the packages that I had selected.  

Also, and this is beside the point, there were areas during the install
where I clicked the cancel button but it didn't back me out (I can't
remember now, I think it was when I was setting up the network) and I had to
turn off the machine and restart.

I have 7.0 installed...

-Original Message-
From: Philomena [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2000 9:28 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [OT] Who uses Linux? (was RE: [newbie] Mandrake...too many
apps?)


I fall into the "used to be a programmer and unfortunately fell up into 
management" type, but I still try to keep myself current.

I'm curious also - what type of question during the install would you think 
is confounding to a new user ? It seems to me that every question during 
the installs at any level are clearly outlined in the documentation you get 
with the software. I doubt a new user would be downloading the distro from 
an FTP site, so I am guessing the package was purchased. Seemed to me that 
you can click on a few options and then go away and come back to find the 
OS just about installed. What do you see as being difficult ?

cheers,
philomena


At 09:11 AM 9/20/2000 -0500, you wrote:
>Just curious, how many of y'all:
>
>  * are programmer folk
>  * are IT folk
>  * are plain user folk
>
>Don't get me wrong, I really like Linux and hope it flourishes.  And I'm
not
>saying that Linux sucks in any way!
>
>But I'm just wondering because, without getting into a flame war, I'm
>surprised how bad the installation of Mandrake is. I got Mandrake because
it
>was supposed to be the most friendly distribution to install and no doubt
>it's better than RedHat or Debian and for all intents and purpose it's a
>good installation process.  But some of the questions the installer would
>ask were just confounding to a new user and the method that you select
>packages were a bit disconcerting.  I know that Linux is not for the timid,
>but there seem to be just little things that could be changed to faciliate
>the whole "experience."  I doubt a first time Linux user would click on
>Expert, the "psychology" of Linux seems a little wacked but I guess it's
not
>an OS that's intended for the general population.
>
>Let me reiterate: Don't get me wrong, I really like Linux and hope it
>flourishes.  And I'm not saying that Linux sucks in any way!

Re: [OT] Who uses Linux? (was RE: [newbie] Mandrake...too many apps?)

[Larry Marshall]

> Don't get me wrong, I really like Linux and hope it flourishes.  And I'm not saying 
>that Linux sucks in any way!

Mark...UNIX doesn't dominate the home computer market for one reason. 
They've failed to get the interface useable by people who don't want
to know much about computers.  I don't say that to slam you but rather
to point out the differences between the UNIX world and the rest.  

Microsoft and Apple have worked hard to hide the computer.  The UNIX
world has worked hard to keep make it available to the user.  These
two strategies yield up different things but one thing it certainly
does is restrict UNIX to the power-user world.

That said, the various Linux distribution folks are working on making
it easier, adding lots of graphical interface stuff to automate setup
and such.  You're probably right that they haven't gotten it
completely right yet.  

What is safe to say is that if you expect Linux to be like Windows,
you should stick with Windows cuz it will never be.  Linux is a
multi-user, multi-tasking operating system that is lean and mean and
definitely puts more power on your desktop.  The price you pay is the
need to learn/know a lot more about your computer than you have while
running Windows.  You must decide whether you want the power and
freedom that Linux provides and are willing to expend the effort
(significant) to learn it.  

> But I'm just wondering because, without getting into a flame war, I'm
> surprised how bad the installation of Mandrake is. I got Mandrake because 

Realize that the computer hardware industry is being held hostage by
Bill Gates' policy of requiring large payments to include device
drivers and such in Windows.  THIS is much of what makes Windows easy
to install.  Given the way those same hardware manufacturers are
jumping on the Linux cart, this will improve with Linux and just may
become less easy in Windows installations in the future.

Realize also that with a Linux installation you are 1) installing a
lot of application software as well as the operating system and 2) you
are doing a dual-boot operating system installation.  Windows isn't
even capable of doing #2 and a W'98 distribution doesn't include
application software.  You get to pay extra for that.

Cheers --- Larry

Re: [OT] Who uses Linux? (was RE: [newbie] Mandrake...too many apps?)

[Philomena]

I fall into the "used to be a programmer and unfortunately fell up into 
management" type, but I still try to keep myself current.

I'm curious also - what type of question during the install would you think 
is confounding to a new user ? It seems to me that every question during 
the installs at any level are clearly outlined in the documentation you get 
with the software. I doubt a new user would be downloading the distro from 
an FTP site, so I am guessing the package was purchased. Seemed to me that 
you can click on a few options and then go away and come back to find the 
OS just about installed. What do you see as being difficult ?

cheers,
philomena


At 09:11 AM 9/20/2000 -0500, you wrote:
>Just curious, how many of y'all:
>
>  * are programmer folk
>  * are IT folk
>  * are plain user folk
>
>Don't get me wrong, I really like Linux and hope it flourishes.  And I'm not
>saying that Linux sucks in any way!
>
>But I'm just wondering because, without getting into a flame war, I'm
>surprised how bad the installation of Mandrake is. I got Mandrake because it
>was supposed to be the most friendly distribution to install and no doubt
>it's better than RedHat or Debian and for all intents and purpose it's a
>good installation process.  But some of the questions the installer would
>ask were just confounding to a new user and the method that you select
>packages were a bit disconcerting.  I know that Linux is not for the timid,
>but there seem to be just little things that could be changed to faciliate
>the whole "experience."  I doubt a first time Linux user would click on
>Expert, the "psychology" of Linux seems a little wacked but I guess it's not
>an OS that's intended for the general population.
>
>Let me reiterate: Don't get me wrong, I really like Linux and hope it
>flourishes.  And I'm not saying that Linux sucks in any way!
>
>
>-Original Message-
>From: patrick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 2:34 PM
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: [newbie] Mandrake...too many apps?
>
>
>On Mon, 18 Sep 2000, you wrote:
> > Have you tried doing an expert install and selecting the applications
> > yourself ? That way, you know exctly what you have installed on your
> > system.
> >
> > cheers,
> > philomena
>
>yea, theres about a thousand of em. have fun :)
>
> >
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > >
> > > One of the few things I don't care for with Mandrake is the large number
> > > of apps it installs by default that are of little use to me. Couple this
> > > the seeming all or nothing selection process and
> > > the lack of documnetation (that I can find) on exactly what is included
> > > in the Misc category or not installed with the available
> > > percentage of options and I always wind up with a very cluttered menu
> > > stucture. I was wondering if the boxed set includes any more app
> > > selection information...if so it would certinly be worth the price to
> > > me.
> > > --
> > > Paul Bary
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>

[OT] Who uses Linux? (was RE: [newbie] Mandrake...too many apps?)

[Mark Johnson]

Just curious, how many of y'all:

 * are programmer folk
 * are IT folk
 * are plain user folk

Don't get me wrong, I really like Linux and hope it flourishes.  And I'm not
saying that Linux sucks in any way!

But I'm just wondering because, without getting into a flame war, I'm
surprised how bad the installation of Mandrake is. I got Mandrake because it
was supposed to be the most friendly distribution to install and no doubt
it's better than RedHat or Debian and for all intents and purpose it's a
good installation process.  But some of the questions the installer would
ask were just confounding to a new user and the method that you select
packages were a bit disconcerting.  I know that Linux is not for the timid,
but there seem to be just little things that could be changed to faciliate
the whole "experience."  I doubt a first time Linux user would click on
Expert, the "psychology" of Linux seems a little wacked but I guess it's not
an OS that's intended for the general population.

Let me reiterate: Don't get me wrong, I really like Linux and hope it
flourishes.  And I'm not saying that Linux sucks in any way!


-Original Message-
From: patrick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 2:34 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [newbie] Mandrake...too many apps?


On Mon, 18 Sep 2000, you wrote:
> Have you tried doing an expert install and selecting the applications
> yourself ? That way, you know exctly what you have installed on your
> system.
> 
> cheers,
> philomena

yea, theres about a thousand of em. have fun :)

> 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > 
> > One of the few things I don't care for with Mandrake is the large number
> > of apps it installs by default that are of little use to me. Couple this
> > the seeming all or nothing selection process and
> > the lack of documnetation (that I can find) on exactly what is included
> > in the Misc category or not installed with the available
> > percentage of options and I always wind up with a very cluttered menu
> > stucture. I was wondering if the boxed set includes any more app
> > selection information...if so it would certinly be worth the price to
> > me.
> > --
> > Paul Bary
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]