Re: [newbie] Linux, Borders, and social consciousness
thanks - i'll try it right away. would it help if i upgraded XFree to version 4.0 ? - Original Message - From: "civileme" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Eyedeal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2001 12:05 AM Subject: Re: [newbie] Linux, Borders, and social consciousness On Friday 31 August 2001 10:50, Eyedeal wrote: > I guess this will come as no surprise - I'm having problems with my video > card. Its a trident 9750 agp. My monitor is LG studioworks 440Si and my > mandrake version is the old 6.1 > > Any ideas ?? Much appreciated > > 6.1 is no longer supported but the 975/9750 works fine if after install you edit /etc/X11/XF86Config and in the Device section put Option "noaccel" You might need Option "sw_cursor" as well. Once you have 6.1 running nicely, you had best go to one of the securrity update sites and get the kernel we issued in April and install it. It is a very very solid kernel. Civileme > _ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Linux, Borders, and social consciousness
On Friday 31 August 2001 10:50, Eyedeal wrote: > I guess this will come as no surprise - I'm having problems with my video > card. Its a trident 9750 agp. My monitor is LG studioworks 440Si and my > mandrake version is the old 6.1 > > Any ideas ?? Much appreciated > > 6.1 is no longer supported but the 975/9750 works fine if after install you edit /etc/X11/XF86Config and in the Device section put Option "noaccel" You might need Option "sw_cursor" as well. Once you have 6.1 running nicely, you had best go to one of the securrity update sites and get the kernel we issued in April and install it. It is a very very solid kernel. Civileme > _ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Linux, Borders, and social consciousness
jennifer wrote: > > Please keep this off list. Again, respond to me if neccsary, and Isaac off > list. This is not the appropriate place to expounde your moral beliefs. > > This is a linux help list. > You didn't hesitate to post *your* moral beliefs to the group, so why is it that you >don't follow your own advice? I am sorry if you can't understand that there are >social implications to Linux and open source, beside your own. The line between the >technical and the social aspects at some points become blurred. That is why we see >these kind of posts on a regular basis. This thread is not an isolated incident. No >one is doing it to tick you off. It seems to me that you are confusing the role of >the machine, with the role of the person using the machine. Until you can grasp that >some people use computers to expound their moral beliefs, and how that affects the >technical aspects, I don't have any desire to have a private conversation with you. >Please respond to this *on* list, where everyone who is affected by these decisions >you have made for the whole list can see it. You obviously don't understand what I >was getting at in my earlier post, because once again, I am looking at ! ! someone begging the question. You are telling me that it is not appropriate, because it is not appropriate, but have not offered any reason why. I am not trying to be difficult. If you give me a good reason, I will seriously consider it. with all due respect, your personal opinion, sans explaination thereof is of no more interest to me than mine is to you. Is there some documentation to back up what you are proposing? When I subscribed, the only hard rule I saw was about spam. ShalomOut Chal Elder PCUSA Registered Linux user # 217118 Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Linux, Borders, and social consciousness
Please keep this off list. Again, respond to me if neccsary, and Isaac off list. This is not the appropriate place to expounde your moral beliefs. This is a linux help list. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Linux, Borders, and social consciousness
Hi Isaac, Goddess this thread is interesting and thought provoking! I am not here to make any jugment, either way. I just wanted to drop a line to tell you that I support you: do whatever you want if you feel that's the right thing to do, never mind what other people say. There are as many moral codes as there are people on this planet. It's good that you know what is good for you. Blessings, Anguo Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Linux, Borders, and social consciousness
Ron Bouwhuis wrote: > What the hell is a five-finger discount? > > I *HOPE* you mean you go to Borders, buy a coffee > and > maybe a pastry, sit down in one of those lovely > corner > sofas and read the excellent Linux references you > mention (careful not to get sticky fingers on the > pages). You then write notes to yourself on a pad > and > put the book back on the shelf when you're done. > Regards, > Ron. Charles Punch wrote: > Isaac Curtis wrote: > >>Charles Punch wrote: >> >>>Isaac Curtis wrote: >>> >>> Bryan Tyson wrote: >On Wednesday 29 August 2001 21:32, Ron wrote: > > > >>Isaac, >> >>My gast has been well and truly flabbered... >> >>Ron. >>(Feeling a little sadder after reading your post). >> >> >> >Ron's right. This guy is making a mockery of both the Linux community >and "social consciousness." > >*** >Powered by SuSE Linux 7.2 Professional >KDE 2.1.2 KMail 1.2 > >Bryan S. Tyson >[EMAIL PROTECTED] >*** > > > For the thousandth time... I gave a lot more options, people are just obsessing about stealing. I provided a bunch of more acceptable ways to do this, and Paul added one more. I still have to admit I find it sort of silly that people burn cd's, copy mp3's, and reuse software intended for one computer yet would lecture someone for stealing a book. A $40 book is three cd's, which is about 40 songs. So take your mp3 collection and divide it by forty to figure the equivalent of how many books you've stolen. I haven't stolen many books. - Isaac >>>There are a few basic flaws in your reasoning that I must comment on. >>>(1.)There is no way for you to know that the people that have expressed >>>their belief that stealing is wrong are doing any of the things you've >>>mentioned above. (2.)I am a Christian, but I know that the concept of >>>Karmic law is a little more than lightning striking people who >>>transgress moral laws. (3.) Quantity has nothing to do with whether >>>something is wrong or not. If stealing a million books is wrong, then >>>stealing one is wrong as well.I will ask once more, do you think that >>>two (or more) wrongs make a right. What surprises me about seeing this >>>kind of post on this list, is not a lack of morals, but a lack of >>>logical progression in the arguments. All of the arguments in favor of >>>stealing are based on non-sequitur. One would think that someone who can >>>make logical progressions to do computer work, would be able to apply >>>those priciples to other areas. To those who complained about posting >>>replies to this thread on the list, I do this because some of the >>>replies I read were in agreement at least partially about stealing and >>>it is not only my moral obligation, but my logical obligation to address >>>this issue. If it were only a moral obligation (without reason), I would >>>concede and post off list. It is in the interest of clear communication >>>that I post this. If you prove to me that clear communication is >>>irrelevant to this list, I will apologize. >>> >>>ShalomOut >>> Chal >>>Elder PCUSA >>>Registered Linux user # 217118 >>> >>> >>Chal >> >>I hear what you're saying about the logical arguments, but I'm also put >>in this really awkward place where I'm being made to defend the idea of >>stealing. This is what has driven this topic so far off topic that it >>seems inappropriate. I'm really drained because in attacking the >>concept of stealing everyone is allowed to ignore everything I was >>really saying. In demanding a logical defense of stealing you refuse to >>debate the other ideas that were put forward. I feel like it's at the >>point that if I keep defending myself I'm just making it worse, so I'm >>going to chill. I also want to agree very strongly with you that >>discussions, whatever level they descend to, are always more healthy to >>have openly on the list. There's nothing wrong with also talking >>privately on the side, but I really enjoy developing an understanding of >>people through open candid discussions, whether we're talking about the >>best window manager or the most appropriate way of acquiring books. >> >>Peace, >>Isaac >> >> > The reason I only addressed the part about stealing, is that I agree > with everything else you said. At least the parts I understood. I am not > familiar with Borders, so the specifics were lost on me. I don't have > any innovative ideas on these things, but I keep an open mind. You have > given me another perspective to consider. I almost hesitated to post my > comments about stealing, because I could see that you were getting > attacked on (strictly) moral grounds. All of my moral objections had a > basis in reason. I wanted you to see that there is an objection to > stealing based on l
Re: [newbie] Linux, Borders, and social consciousness
Isaac Curtis wrote: > > Charles Punch wrote: > > Isaac Curtis wrote: > > > >>Bryan Tyson wrote: > >> > >>>On Wednesday 29 August 2001 21:32, Ron wrote: > >>> > >>> > Isaac, > > My gast has been well and truly flabbered... > > Ron. > (Feeling a little sadder after reading your post). > > > >>>Ron's right. This guy is making a mockery of both the Linux community > >>>and "social consciousness." > >>> > >>>*** > >>>Powered by SuSE Linux 7.2 Professional > >>>KDE 2.1.2 KMail 1.2 > >>> > >>>Bryan S. Tyson > >>>[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>*** > >>> > >>> > >>For the thousandth time... I gave a lot more options, people are just > >>obsessing about stealing. I provided a bunch of more acceptable ways to > >>do this, and Paul added one more. I still have to admit I find it sort > >>of silly that people burn cd's, copy mp3's, and reuse software intended > >>for one computer yet would lecture someone for stealing a book. A $40 > >>book is three cd's, which is about 40 songs. So take your mp3 > >>collection and divide it by forty to figure the equivalent of how many > >>books you've stolen. I haven't stolen many books. > >> > >> - Isaac > >> > > > > There are a few basic flaws in your reasoning that I must comment on. > > (1.)There is no way for you to know that the people that have expressed > > their belief that stealing is wrong are doing any of the things you've > > mentioned above. (2.)I am a Christian, but I know that the concept of > > Karmic law is a little more than lightning striking people who > > transgress moral laws. (3.) Quantity has nothing to do with whether > > something is wrong or not. If stealing a million books is wrong, then > > stealing one is wrong as well.I will ask once more, do you think that > > two (or more) wrongs make a right. What surprises me about seeing this > > kind of post on this list, is not a lack of morals, but a lack of > > logical progression in the arguments. All of the arguments in favor of > > stealing are based on non-sequitur. One would think that someone who can > > make logical progressions to do computer work, would be able to apply > > those priciples to other areas. To those who complained about posting > > replies to this thread on the list, I do this because some of the > > replies I read were in agreement at least partially about stealing and > > it is not only my moral obligation, but my logical obligation to address > > this issue. If it were only a moral obligation (without reason), I would > > concede and post off list. It is in the interest of clear communication > > that I post this. If you prove to me that clear communication is > > irrelevant to this list, I will apologize. > > > > ShalomOut > > Chal > > Elder PCUSA > > Registered Linux user # 217118 > > > > Chal > > I hear what you're saying about the logical arguments, but I'm also put > in this really awkward place where I'm being made to defend the idea of > stealing. This is what has driven this topic so far off topic that it > seems inappropriate. I'm really drained because in attacking the > concept of stealing everyone is allowed to ignore everything I was > really saying. In demanding a logical defense of stealing you refuse to > debate the other ideas that were put forward. I feel like it's at the > point that if I keep defending myself I'm just making it worse, so I'm > going to chill. I also want to agree very strongly with you that > discussions, whatever level they descend to, are always more healthy to > have openly on the list. There's nothing wrong with also talking > privately on the side, but I really enjoy developing an understanding of > people through open candid discussions, whether we're talking about the > best window manager or the most appropriate way of acquiring books. > > Peace, > Isaac > The reason I only addressed the part about stealing, is that I agree with everything else you said. At least the parts I understood. I am not familiar with Borders, so the specifics were lost on me. I don't have any innovative ideas on these things, but I keep an open mind. You have given me another perspective to consider. I almost hesitated to post my comments about stealing, because I could see that you were getting attacked on (strictly) moral grounds. All of my moral objections had a basis in reason. I wanted you to see that there is an objection to stealing based on logic, which I didn't see in any of the other posts. Some of the others did give some good alternatives that I wouldn't have thought of, but none gave a reason *why* you should pursue an alternative other than that they thought that stealing was wrong. It seemed to me that they were all begging the question, by saying that stealing is wrong, because stealing is wrong. I do realize there is more to your position than just advocating theft. My comments about communicating c
Re: [newbie] Linux, Borders, and social consciousness
Charles Punch wrote: > Isaac Curtis wrote: > >>Bryan Tyson wrote: >> >>>On Wednesday 29 August 2001 21:32, Ron wrote: >>> >>> Isaac, My gast has been well and truly flabbered... Ron. (Feeling a little sadder after reading your post). >>>Ron's right. This guy is making a mockery of both the Linux community >>>and "social consciousness." >>> >>>*** >>>Powered by SuSE Linux 7.2 Professional >>>KDE 2.1.2 KMail 1.2 >>> >>>Bryan S. Tyson >>>[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>*** >>> >>> >>For the thousandth time... I gave a lot more options, people are just >>obsessing about stealing. I provided a bunch of more acceptable ways to >>do this, and Paul added one more. I still have to admit I find it sort >>of silly that people burn cd's, copy mp3's, and reuse software intended >>for one computer yet would lecture someone for stealing a book. A $40 >>book is three cd's, which is about 40 songs. So take your mp3 >>collection and divide it by forty to figure the equivalent of how many >>books you've stolen. I haven't stolen many books. >> >> - Isaac >> > > There are a few basic flaws in your reasoning that I must comment on. > (1.)There is no way for you to know that the people that have expressed > their belief that stealing is wrong are doing any of the things you've > mentioned above. (2.)I am a Christian, but I know that the concept of > Karmic law is a little more than lightning striking people who > transgress moral laws. (3.) Quantity has nothing to do with whether > something is wrong or not. If stealing a million books is wrong, then > stealing one is wrong as well.I will ask once more, do you think that > two (or more) wrongs make a right. What surprises me about seeing this > kind of post on this list, is not a lack of morals, but a lack of > logical progression in the arguments. All of the arguments in favor of > stealing are based on non-sequitur. One would think that someone who can > make logical progressions to do computer work, would be able to apply > those priciples to other areas. To those who complained about posting > replies to this thread on the list, I do this because some of the > replies I read were in agreement at least partially about stealing and > it is not only my moral obligation, but my logical obligation to address > this issue. If it were only a moral obligation (without reason), I would > concede and post off list. It is in the interest of clear communication > that I post this. If you prove to me that clear communication is > irrelevant to this list, I will apologize. > > ShalomOut > Chal > Elder PCUSA > Registered Linux user # 217118 > Chal I hear what you're saying about the logical arguments, but I'm also put in this really awkward place where I'm being made to defend the idea of stealing. This is what has driven this topic so far off topic that it seems inappropriate. I'm really drained because in attacking the concept of stealing everyone is allowed to ignore everything I was really saying. In demanding a logical defense of stealing you refuse to debate the other ideas that were put forward. I feel like it's at the point that if I keep defending myself I'm just making it worse, so I'm going to chill. I also want to agree very strongly with you that discussions, whatever level they descend to, are always more healthy to have openly on the list. There's nothing wrong with also talking privately on the side, but I really enjoy developing an understanding of people through open candid discussions, whether we're talking about the best window manager or the most appropriate way of acquiring books. Peace, Isaac Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Linux, Borders, and social consciousness
Isaac Curtis wrote: > > Bryan Tyson wrote: > > On Wednesday 29 August 2001 21:32, Ron wrote: > > > >>Isaac, > >> > >>My gast has been well and truly flabbered... > >> > >>Ron. > >>(Feeling a little sadder after reading your post). > >> > > > > Ron's right. This guy is making a mockery of both the Linux community > > and "social consciousness." > > > > *** > > Powered by SuSE Linux 7.2 Professional > > KDE 2.1.2 KMail 1.2 > > > > Bryan S. Tyson > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > *** > > > > For the thousandth time... I gave a lot more options, people are just > obsessing about stealing. I provided a bunch of more acceptable ways to > do this, and Paul added one more. I still have to admit I find it sort > of silly that people burn cd's, copy mp3's, and reuse software intended > for one computer yet would lecture someone for stealing a book. A $40 > book is three cd's, which is about 40 songs. So take your mp3 > collection and divide it by forty to figure the equivalent of how many > books you've stolen. I haven't stolen many books. > > - Isaac There are a few basic flaws in your reasoning that I must comment on. (1.)There is no way for you to know that the people that have expressed their belief that stealing is wrong are doing any of the things you've mentioned above. (2.)I am a Christian, but I know that the concept of Karmic law is a little more than lightning striking people who transgress moral laws. (3.) Quantity has nothing to do with whether something is wrong or not. If stealing a million books is wrong, then stealing one is wrong as well.I will ask once more, do you think that two (or more) wrongs make a right. What surprises me about seeing this kind of post on this list, is not a lack of morals, but a lack of logical progression in the arguments. All of the arguments in favor of stealing are based on non-sequitur. One would think that someone who can make logical progressions to do computer work, would be able to apply those priciples to other areas. To those who complained about posting replies to this thread on the list, I do this because some of the replies I read were in agreement at least partially about stealing and it is not only my moral obligation, but my logical obligation to address this issue. If it were only a moral obligation (without reason), I would concede and post off list. It is in the interest of clear communication that I post this. If you prove to me that clear communication is irrelevant to this list, I will apologize. ShalomOut Chal Elder PCUSA Registered Linux user # 217118 Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Linux, Borders, and social consciousness
James S Bear wrote: > I hope we all understand that stealing will make us as bad as Microsoft. I > wouldn't say Microsoft has a lousy product, but I do pray with all my hear that > I won't have to buy another MS product in my life. I could possibly agree with > the fact that they are evil(and maybe Borders, but...), but this in no way > justifies stealing. In my mind, that would be the same thing. IT's not my > business what happens to Mr. Gates's conscience(and I won't get into the > afterlife question here) but it is my business what happens to mine. > Just a thought. > I get what you're saying and I respect where you're coming from, and for any individual person it's their own issue how they feel about and deal with all these issues. I don't want to come off like I'm riling people up to go on a stealing spree, I'm just saying please please think about who you support when you buy from Borders, the same way I tell my Windows-using friends to please please think about who they support when they buy from Microsoft. I really wish someone would get past the stealing thing and talk about what I was really saying, which is just that buying from Borders seems to be a contradiction from the kinds of people who won't buy from Microsoft. Besides, how many of you burn cds? How many of you have used old Win98 disks to upgrade your friend's old 95 systems for free? How many of you listen to mp3's? All of those things are stealing, there's no two ways about it. You owe Microsoft $150 bucks for every time you did an install of Win98 on more than one computer. You owe Seagram/Polygram $17 for every time you burned a cd or downloaded a dozen mp3's. While I admit to doing all those things, I am honest enough to acknowledge that what I am doing is stealing, and I think everything out in my head and I resolve that it is less wrong to burn the cd than it is to go out and support the RIAA. If you deny the fact you are stealing, you are lying to yourself to protect the attitude you have that makes you think you're better than a common thief. In fact most common thieves are far more justified than we are. We burn cd's because we don't like paying for cd's, a boy kills a king's deer because he doesn't like his family starving to death. My point here is twofold: 1. We almost all do things that are undeniably stealing. 2. I'm not trying to say stealing is right, I'm trying to say it's less wrong than supporting Borders. Time to go coach my soccer kids, Isaac "I'm an American, I believe in the American Way. I worry if the government encourages open source; and I don't think we've done enough education of policy makers to understand the threat." - Jim Allchin, Microsoft Windows Operating System Chief http://news.cnet.com/investor/news/newsitem/0-9900-1028-4825719-RHAT.html?t Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Linux, Borders, and social consciousness
Bryan Tyson wrote: > On Wednesday 29 August 2001 21:32, Ron wrote: > >>Isaac, >> >>My gast has been well and truly flabbered... >> >>Ron. >>(Feeling a little sadder after reading your post). >> > > Ron's right. This guy is making a mockery of both the Linux community > and "social consciousness." > > *** > Powered by SuSE Linux 7.2 Professional > KDE 2.1.2 KMail 1.2 > > Bryan S. Tyson > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > *** > For the thousandth time... I gave a lot more options, people are just obsessing about stealing. I provided a bunch of more acceptable ways to do this, and Paul added one more. I still have to admit I find it sort of silly that people burn cd's, copy mp3's, and reuse software intended for one computer yet would lecture someone for stealing a book. A $40 book is three cd's, which is about 40 songs. So take your mp3 collection and divide it by forty to figure the equivalent of how many books you've stolen. I haven't stolen many books. - Isaac Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Linux, Borders, and social consciousness
paul rodríguez wrote: > Views on the morality of shoplifting aside, there is a way you can buy books from a >local independent bookstore online that is very convenient. > > Booksense.com is an national organization of independent bookstores which provides a >common interface to order books online and also to find a local independent bookshop. > Gift certificates are also available so that you can encourage shopping at >independent bookstores (redeamable at most independent bookstores nation-wide). > > It's worth looking into. My local (and favorite) bookstore when I'm at school, Food >For Thought (worker's collective) in Amherst, MA is a member. When I go home to an >area where the nearest indy bookshop is hours away, this is a great resource. > > - Paul Rodríguez > Thanks for the idea Paul, I'll actually try it out at some point. It's still a lot less human than being able to walk through my own downtown, though, waving at the shopowners I know and getting into a conversation with the owner about what his favorite new book is. There's gotta be a lot of different approaches to every problem, though, and since we can't get back what we've already lost this is a cool resource. Thanks, Isaac PS - Food for Thought is an awesome bookstore. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Linux, Borders, and social consciousness
On Wednesday 29 August 2001 21:32, Ron wrote: > Isaac, > > My gast has been well and truly flabbered... > > Ron. > (Feeling a little sadder after reading your post). Ron's right. This guy is making a mockery of both the Linux community and "social consciousness." *** Powered by SuSE Linux 7.2 Professional KDE 2.1.2 KMail 1.2 Bryan S. Tyson [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Linux, Borders, and social consciousness
Yeah... see Windows provides a little bit of morality to your life. Since it's merely a vessel for porn, it crashes on you to let you know you're doing something you shouldn't be doing! lol Borders was a family owned business, and family run for the most part until it really started to take off, and then was sold to KMart. They were based out of Ann Arbor, Michigan, and Store #1 is still downtown. The Borders family has always been very nice, and very pleasant, and involved in the community. Here, in Ann Arbor, going to Borders is supporting the community. Yes there are other "Mom & Pop" bookstores, as there's "Mom & Pop" everything here, but Borders started out as that, and just managed to expand to such a large corporation. I've worked contracts for Borders, and as a corporation, they're just as unorganized as anybody else, but they have some very good people working at the stores all over the place. I've talked some of these people, and can attest that personally. Meanwhile the whole issue of non-union workers is a whole other debate, that's more a personal view point at this time. But not only are punishing publishers, writers, you're punishing the "Mom & Pop" stores as well. Shoplifting is a huge reasons for markups. The publisher lose money, so then the writers lose out. Then they mark the books up more so they can make up for money lost. Not to mention the people that work in these stores becaue they're 16 and can't find anything else. The people that don't have a problem with making $8, and are glad they're getting that much, and they're not working in a fast food envirenment. There are other, more effective ways of tackling this issue of yours. But just as you have your own beliefs, you have your own methods of addressing them. tdh -- T. Holmes - UNIXTECHS.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] - "Real Men Use Vi!" Uptime: 1:02pm up 14 days, 18:47, 7 users, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 | Don't you know big brother is always watching. Especially, un*x groups, | listserves, and irc channels. Reason why, UNIX people are the smartest | on the planet. | | BTW: Windows is only good for one thing porn. It even crashes on that, | guess that means you shouldn't look at porn. | | Eric Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Fwd: Re: [newbie] Linux, Borders, and social consciousness
I can see that this may get out of hand. I just realized that Mr. Curtis Re-posted his comments from another thread to this one because people were ignoring him. For the sake of the list I ask that we not encourage this angry teenager with more replies. I replied to him below off list because this is precisely where all our comments on the subject belong-off list. I remind everyone that this is a linux help list , not a self help list. (Or political/moral discussion list) If you have comments for Mr. Curtis or myself, please respond privately off-list. To Mr. Curtis, please refrain from using this list as a political forum. There are more appropriate newsgroups for your Robin Hood-ish agenda. -- Forwarded Message -- Subject: Re: [newbie] Linux, Borders, and social consciousness Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 08:40:07 -0400 From: jennifer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Isaac Curtis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Notice I am replying only to you and not the list. I do not believe your musings of such attitude and malformed jugdement are worthy of this list. Nor do they belong here. The only thing in your comments thus far the has anything to do with linux is that you stole a linux book. This list should not be used for advertising your anti-capitalism beliefs. It is a linux help list. Per your comments, I will only say this. One, karma is not an act of God as you mistakenly imply. Two, there is a minimum wage law in this country which garantees all workers a "living wage". If you do not believe this wage is appropriate, you should redirect your efforts toward the goverment and try to create *positive* change. So far, the only consequence of your actions are price jacks for people like yourself. No wonder you can't afford the books. Oh, as a side note, you infer that your community has such a demand for books that they have a need for 5 bookstores, only one of which is a mom and pop shop that you have no problem supporting. Again, perhaps you should redirect your efforts and create positive change by helping THEM meet the consumption demands the community. Ask them to special order your books. Help them set up a website. They obviously could use product suggestions for the community so that people will buy from them instead of Borders. If they don't carry the products, it is their own fault that Borders is taking over the town. On Thursday 30 August 2001 03:21, Isaac Curtis wrote: > jennifer wrote: > > On Wednesday 29 August 2001 17:09, Isaac Curtis wrote: > >>This is a bottom-posted new thread, I encourage anyone interested to > >>please skim the quote for context before reading below. > >> > >> > >> > >>(from the thread Re: [newbie] kde2.2 broke Konqueror Flash plugin) > >> > >>Ron Bouwhuis wrote: > >>--- Isaac Curtis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> > >>. Either buy/order them from a locally owned > >>bookstore or, if you don't have the hefty $75 combined price tag, take > >>the five-finger discount at the nearest Borders (the place is less > >>secure than Windows ME) and buy a few magazines back at your hometown > >>shop to support local business. > >> > >> > >>What the hell is a five-finger discount? > >> > >>I *HOPE* you mean you go to Borders, buy a coffee and > >>maybe a pastry, sit down in one of those lovely corner > >>sofas and read the excellent Linux references you > >>mention (careful not to get sticky fingers on the > >>pages). You then write notes to yourself on a pad and > >>put the book back on the shelf when you're done. > >>Regards, > >>Ron. > >> > >> > >>Dear Ron, > >> > >>Borders ran four of five local bookstores out of my hometown. Borders > >>bookstores all across the country have illegally interfered with union > >>organzing within my union and others. Borders pays their workers a > >>lousy wage so that ignorant high-brow yuppies can come in and get their > >>books for a few bucks less than they could at the shop that has been in > >>their community for three generations. I will not pay for a book from > >>that store. > >> > >>I am on a very tight budget and can occasionally afford a tech magazine > >>or some cd-r's on which to burn software and the latest downloads. When > >>I purchase these things I get them from local business and support the > >>people that have been supporting my community since before I was born. > >>When I need something I can't get from local business, either because of > >>price or because they aren't able to get it shipped within a month, I > >>will go to Bor
Re: [newbie] Linux, Borders, and social consciousness
Don't you know big brother is always watching. Especially, un*x groups, listserves, and irc channels. Reason why, UNIX people are the smartest on the planet. BTW: Windows is only good for one thing porn. It even crashes on that, guess that means you shouldn't look at porn. Eric * paul rodríguez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [010830 12:32]: > Views on the morality of shoplifting aside, there is a way you can buy books from a >local independent bookstore online that is very convenient. > > Booksense.com is an national organization of independent bookstores which provides a >common interface to order books online and also to find a local independent bookshop. > Gift certificates are also available so that you can encourage shopping at >independent bookstores (redeamable at most independent bookstores nation-wide). > > It's worth looking into. My local (and favorite) bookstore when I'm at school, Food >For Thought (worker's collective) in Amherst, MA is a member. When I go home to an >area where the nearest indy bookshop is hours away, this is a great resource. > > - Paul Rodríguez > > > _ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > > Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? > Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com -- Uptime: 4:51 Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Linux, Borders, and social consciousness
jennifer wrote: > On Wednesday 29 August 2001 17:09, Isaac Curtis wrote: > >>This is a bottom-posted new thread, I encourage anyone interested to >>please skim the quote for context before reading below. >> >> >> >>(from the thread Re: [newbie] kde2.2 broke Konqueror Flash plugin) >> >>Ron Bouwhuis wrote: >>--- Isaac Curtis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >>. Either buy/order them from a locally owned >>bookstore or, if you don't have the hefty $75 combined price tag, take >>the five-finger discount at the nearest Borders (the place is less >>secure than Windows ME) and buy a few magazines back at your hometown >>shop to support local business. >> >> >>What the hell is a five-finger discount? >> >>I *HOPE* you mean you go to Borders, buy a coffee and >>maybe a pastry, sit down in one of those lovely corner >>sofas and read the excellent Linux references you >>mention (careful not to get sticky fingers on the >>pages). You then write notes to yourself on a pad and >>put the book back on the shelf when you're done. >>Regards, >>Ron. >> >> >>Dear Ron, >> >>Borders ran four of five local bookstores out of my hometown. Borders >>bookstores all across the country have illegally interfered with union >>organzing within my union and others. Borders pays their workers a >>lousy wage so that ignorant high-brow yuppies can come in and get their >>books for a few bucks less than they could at the shop that has been in >>their community for three generations. I will not pay for a book from >>that store. >> >>I am on a very tight budget and can occasionally afford a tech magazine >>or some cd-r's on which to burn software and the latest downloads. When >>I purchase these things I get them from local business and support the >>people that have been supporting my community since before I was born. >>When I need something I can't get from local business, either because of >>price or because they aren't able to get it shipped within a month, I >>will go to Borders and take it. When I have to resort to that, I make a >>point of spending as much as I can afford at a local bookstore. >> >>Last week I picked up "Learning the Bash Shell" and "DNS and Bind" for >>free from Borders, so I went to a local store in downtown and bought two >>history books and a fiction book which I donated to my local public >>library. I actually spent more on the donated books than I would have >>on the ones from Borders, but I am comfortable with that decision >>because what I did supported my community and helped strike a(n >>admittedly small) blow at Borders and everything it stands for. >> >>I am not suggesting we all go on a stealing spree from Borders, but >>rather that we support our local businesses. If we can't get what we >>need locally, than we should take it for free from our local Big Box >>Store (Borders, Barnes & Noble, etc) and find a way to redirect the >>privilege we enjoyed of a free book into a way of supporting the local >>community. This isn't your only option, you could go to your local >>public library and ask them to order a copy to beef up their tech >>section. (If they don't have money for it you could steal *two* copies >>from Borders and donate one of them...) You could get a friend to buy >>it from a locally-owned store out of state and mail it to you, and >>return the favor with an equally priced book they couldn't find in their >>area. >> >>The point isn't stealing, the point is supporting our local communities >>by supporting our local businesses. Mutlinational corporations don't >>care about your community, they don't care about your needs, and they >>don't care about you. They care about their bottom line. This is the >>same thing that has given us Wal-Mart, McDonald's, and Microsoft. To >>copy your syntax a little bit... >> >>I *HOPE* that you, as a Linux supporter, would be able to make the >>connection between why Microsoft is evil and why Borders is evil. >>Microsoft is not just a lousy operating system, it is a morally corrupt >>institution. >> >>I am not sure if stealing is right, but I know that buying from Borders >>is wrong. >> >>Against Capital and State, >>Isaac >> >> >> >>"Necessity knows no law, and the starving man has a natural right to a >>share of his neighbor's bread. Ask for work. If they do not give you >>work, ask for bread. If they do not give you work or bread, then take >>bread." >> >> - Emma Goldman >>www.anarchistfaq.org >>www.infoshop.org/faq >> >>(I realize this qoute is not relevant to stealing a Linux book from >>Borders. It is, however, another angle of opening people's minds to why >>stealing is, if not right, certainly less wrong than other ills of this >>world.) >> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; name="message.footer" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Content-Description: > > You have go to be kidding me! > > I am so happy that I believe in karma after read
Re: [newbie] Linux, Borders, and social consciousness
jennifer wrote: > On Wednesday 29 August 2001 17:09, Isaac Curtis wrote: > >>This is a bottom-posted new thread, I encourage anyone interested to >>please skim the quote for context before reading below. >> >> >> >>(from the thread Re: [newbie] kde2.2 broke Konqueror Flash plugin) >> >>Ron Bouwhuis wrote: >>--- Isaac Curtis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >>. Either buy/order them from a locally owned >>bookstore or, if you don't have the hefty $75 combined price tag, take >>the five-finger discount at the nearest Borders (the place is less >>secure than Windows ME) and buy a few magazines back at your hometown >>shop to support local business. >> >> >>What the hell is a five-finger discount? >> >>I *HOPE* you mean you go to Borders, buy a coffee and >>maybe a pastry, sit down in one of those lovely corner >>sofas and read the excellent Linux references you >>mention (careful not to get sticky fingers on the >>pages). You then write notes to yourself on a pad and >>put the book back on the shelf when you're done. >>Regards, >>Ron. >> >> >>Dear Ron, >> >>Borders ran four of five local bookstores out of my hometown. Borders >>bookstores all across the country have illegally interfered with union >>organzing within my union and others. Borders pays their workers a >>lousy wage so that ignorant high-brow yuppies can come in and get their >>books for a few bucks less than they could at the shop that has been in >>their community for three generations. I will not pay for a book from >>that store. >> >>I am on a very tight budget and can occasionally afford a tech magazine >>or some cd-r's on which to burn software and the latest downloads. When >>I purchase these things I get them from local business and support the >>people that have been supporting my community since before I was born. >>When I need something I can't get from local business, either because of >>price or because they aren't able to get it shipped within a month, I >>will go to Borders and take it. When I have to resort to that, I make a >>point of spending as much as I can afford at a local bookstore. >> >>Last week I picked up "Learning the Bash Shell" and "DNS and Bind" for >>free from Borders, so I went to a local store in downtown and bought two >>history books and a fiction book which I donated to my local public >>library. I actually spent more on the donated books than I would have >>on the ones from Borders, but I am comfortable with that decision >>because what I did supported my community and helped strike a(n >>admittedly small) blow at Borders and everything it stands for. >> >>I am not suggesting we all go on a stealing spree from Borders, but >>rather that we support our local businesses. If we can't get what we >>need locally, than we should take it for free from our local Big Box >>Store (Borders, Barnes & Noble, etc) and find a way to redirect the >>privilege we enjoyed of a free book into a way of supporting the local >>community. This isn't your only option, you could go to your local >>public library and ask them to order a copy to beef up their tech >>section. (If they don't have money for it you could steal *two* copies >>from Borders and donate one of them...) You could get a friend to buy >>it from a locally-owned store out of state and mail it to you, and >>return the favor with an equally priced book they couldn't find in their >>area. >> >>The point isn't stealing, the point is supporting our local communities >>by supporting our local businesses. Mutlinational corporations don't >>care about your community, they don't care about your needs, and they >>don't care about you. They care about their bottom line. This is the >>same thing that has given us Wal-Mart, McDonald's, and Microsoft. To >>copy your syntax a little bit... >> >>I *HOPE* that you, as a Linux supporter, would be able to make the >>connection between why Microsoft is evil and why Borders is evil. >>Microsoft is not just a lousy operating system, it is a morally corrupt >>institution. >> >>I am not sure if stealing is right, but I know that buying from Borders >>is wrong. >> >>Against Capital and State, >>Isaac >> >> >> >>"Necessity knows no law, and the starving man has a natural right to a >>share of his neighbor's bread. Ask for work. If they do not give you >>work, ask for bread. If they do not give you work or bread, then take >>bread." >> >> - Emma Goldman >>www.anarchistfaq.org >>www.infoshop.org/faq >> >>(I realize this qoute is not relevant to stealing a Linux book from >>Borders. It is, however, another angle of opening people's minds to why >>stealing is, if not right, certainly less wrong than other ills of this >>world.) >> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; name="message.footer" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Content-Description: > > You have go to be kidding me! > > I am so happy that I believe in karma after read
Re: [newbie] Linux, Borders, and social consciousness
Matt Greer wrote: > On Wednesday 29 August 2001 16:09, you wrote: > > >>what I did supported my community and helped strike a(n >>admittedly small) blow at Borders and everything it stands for. >> > > You also struck a blow at a very innocent, and undeserving bystander...the > author(s) of the book. If you want great linux resources to be available in > book form, then the thing to do is to not steal them. > > If you're really concerned about Borders, there are many legal ways to go > about it, that don't screw over innocent book authors. Stealing from them in > the guise of some "protest" doesn't accomplish anything other than show your > maturity level. > > Matt > > > I appreciate the point. (not sarcastic, just so you know) This point is the most relevant (to how I feel) of all the points I expect to be faced with, and the counter to this and many others is: "So how are you liking your mp3's?" Most all people see no problem in downloading mp3's. What about making mix tapes for your friends, back before the dawn of cds? I never had an allowance as a kid so when I finally saved up money for a blank tape I would record songs off the radio and make my own tape, taping over old songs with new ones as my tastes changed. Was that wrong? The point I'm trying to make there is that the concept of intellectual property is in a lot of ways pretty stupid. Did MC Hammer have to live on the streets because I dubbed "Too Legit to Quit" instead of trotting down to the record store and buying the single? No-- MC Hammer lives on the streets because he's got some lame, back-stabbing friends that conned him. Authors, not unlike musicians, get jack for royalties. In the music industry you're talking about pennies on the dollar, and from friends of mine in the writing profession I can tell you it's not much better. From sources at local Borders stores, I know that the standard industry markup for their products is between 150 and 171%. So let's take that off the $40 pricetag of Generic Geek Book X, and we have $16 pre-Borders. As a person who has my ear to the grapevine within the writing industry, I know that 3-5% royalties for the writer are exceptional, and reserved only for the Stephen Kings and Michael Crichtons of the world. Let's pretend that Matt Welsh (Running Linux) is such a world-renowned guru that O'Reilly decided to give him a massive 5% cut on the book. Eighty cents. But wait, there were four authors of that book. Twenty cents each. And that is with some *major* rounding up. The stamp to send them what I owe will cose one and a half times as much. So my point is that you have a good point in that I am not supporting the writers, and I honestly respect and appreciate that. In fact I have gone so far in the past (with musicians) as to write them explaining that I burned their cd off mp3 because I refused to support their label, but that I would be more than happy to mail them a check for $10 (1,000 times the normal royalty) or make a similar donation to an organization of their choice. This has actually turned out to be a neat way to learn about my favorite artists, as the few that returned the letter actually gave some incredibly neat charities. Anyway, I'm sorry I went on for so long (again) I just really wanted to get across that the way I feel about this has nothing to do with my "maturity level". I have spent a lot of time thinking very seriously about both the precursors and the effects of my actions, and I am willing to rethink those every time I am confronted about them. The most significant thing to me is that it may be wrong to steal from Borders, but it is way more wrong to buy from Borders. I'd really like someone to address that, or to respond and say "Yeah, neat, I never thought of it like that before, I'll order everything locally from now on." I'm not trying to recruit an army to loot and pillage, I am trying to get people to think about the ramifications of their actions. A lot of people are yelling at me about how what I do is childish and immature, how I just haven't thought out what I do and why it's wrong. That is absolutely appalling to me. I have spent SO much time thinking about whether or not this is right. How long have you (you is used in general, not Matt) thought about whether it's right or wrong to shop at Borders? If people would put in half the time thinking about shopping that I do about stealing, the world would be a much better place. Thanks for the response, Isaac "The system's set up so almost nobody gets paid." Courtney Love, on music contracts http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2000/06/14/love/index1.html Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
