Re: [newbie] This is a linux mailing list -- some people pay for email access by volume
wow u guys are gettin it cheap dialup for me is about 0.10LE/3 minutes of 6LE/hr at the current exchange rate of about 4.27Le/USD thats about 1.4USD ouch! - Original Message - From: "Paul" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Randy Kramer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 3:55 PM Subject: Re: [newbie] This is a linux mailing list -- some people pay for email access by volume > > Out of curiosity, I would be interested in having some ideas about: > > > >* how many people (what regions of the world) have to pay a "metered" > > rate for their Internet access > > Most people in Europe that do not have access to ADSL or Cable internet (like > me). Using a phone line already costs money, local phone calls are charged > between $0.60 and $1.00 per hour (as far as I know) > > > What I mean is that the US is not a place where, AFAIK, anyone should > > have such a problem. > > Correct. In the US. I am in the Netherlands, paying an ISDN line (about > US$ 30 a month), my ISP ($15 a month) and the local phone charges of $.60 > per hour. No charge on the amount of bandwidth I use unless I take things to > extremes. But with these charges, taking the extreme route is not what I am > aiming at. I don't even download things > 8 megs. Only downloading my mail > and usenet messages (offline) costs me around $100 per month, not counting > the costs of the ISDN line. (I used mailfilter to toss spam etc. off the > server before downloading, but that took about as long as downloading everything > and then let procmail take care of things.) > > Expensive enough, me thinks... I hope this satisfies part of your curiosity. > Paul > > > > Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? > Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com > _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
RE: [newbie] This is a linux mailing list
Gary, > This list is for the people by the people and if we as a > whole want to allow > off topic conversations, then we should allow it. If not, we shouldn't. Actually this is a list that is hosted, operated and paid for by Mandrake. They set it up and contribute to it for the purpose of helping people use Linux. It is not a democratic forum. That the management at Mandrake hasn't taken people off the list (I could be wrong about that but haven't seen much evidence to suggest it) suggests they are okay with the list being used to discuss other matters. I respect that decision but I would respect them just as much if they were to remove people who consistently ignored the list's charter. > Either way, we need to remain respectful of each other and not let our > emotions get the best of us. I've seen several postings come through that > were nothing more than attacks on other members of the list. That > is uncalled > for. Totally agree with that. > We all have (or at least we all should have) a delete key > as well as most of > us have filters that can block messages (to some extent) that we > don't wish > to receive. I don't mind receiving emails about other topics. I > joined the > list to offer assistance on any subjects that I am familiar with > as I have > often struggled with Linux over the last 18 months since my first > installation. I have worked through a lot of problems and have > had along the > way and I'd like to help others. But that help doesn't have to end with > Linux. We are all human. We all feel pain, sorrow, loss, etc. > Most of us feel > very bad about what happened recently and the impact that the events will > have on the families directly affected as well as our nation and > the world. > We need to be able to express ourselves when the need arises > without worrying > about which list we are posting too or whether the topic is > relevant. If I > receive a post that I don't care about, I can hit the delete key and it's > gone, end of story (I don't as I always keep everything just in > case I want > to refer back). > I suggest that before anyone gets offended to the poing of > leaving the list, > we have a show of hands, or in this case a show of posts as to > who wants to > allow other postings, and who does not. I'll start by saying that I am in > favor of allowing off topic postings as long as they do not flood > the list. A > few here and there don't hurt anything. We are here for Mandrake > Linux but > there are other things to life and sometimes we need to discuss > those other > things. I have pretty much the same feelings except that at this point I think the WTC-threads have gone way over the line in terms of volume. I understand and agree with your point about wanting to discuss things with people you know and trust. It seems to me that it would be more productive and less noisy to use another list (like the one civileme setup on Yahoo's eGroups) for that purpose. You wouldn't have so many people complaining and you could actually get to the heart of the matter instead of defending your right to post here. Just a thought. I'll be using my delete button in the meantime. ::mark Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] This is a linux mailing list
I think the argument of whether or not various topics should be allowed in this list or not has gotten a bit out of hand. Lets quickly look at both sides and see if we can come to a conclusion. First we have those that want to post about seemingly unrelated topics. Should this be allowed? The argument has been made that some people have to pay for access and should be spared the undue burden of paying for time to download messages of a non-relevant topic. While this may be a good reason, it's being argued by the wrong person/people. I have not read a single post from someone who is on a pay per minute/hour type account and who feels burdened by this. By allowing posts of an unrelated nature we do run the risk of this becoming an open forum to discuss anything and everything. There are better places for discussing unrelated topics if it's ongoing. Second we have those who wish to post about seemingly unrelated topics in this list for several reasons, one of them being that they feel comfortable with those that frequent this list. Trajedy affects different people in different ways. Some need to quietly reflect and work through it on their own. Others need to talk to someone, anyone about what has happened. We each have our own way of coping with sorrow and loss. Once you have been on a mailing list for a while, it starts to become familiar and you feel safe within the list. You build friendships and you start to know one another. You feel safe discussing things with other members of the list that you wouldn't want to discuss with strangers so rather than go to a different list and discuss these things with strangers, you discuss them here among friends. This list is for the people by the people and if we as a whole want to allow off topic conversations, then we should allow it. If not, we shouldn't. Either way, we need to remain respectful of each other and not let our emotions get the best of us. I've seen several postings come through that were nothing more than attacks on other members of the list. That is uncalled for. We all have (or at least we all should have) a delete key as well as most of us have filters that can block messages (to some extent) that we don't wish to receive. I don't mind receiving emails about other topics. I joined the list to offer assistance on any subjects that I am familiar with as I have often struggled with Linux over the last 18 months since my first installation. I have worked through a lot of problems and have had along the way and I'd like to help others. But that help doesn't have to end with Linux. We are all human. We all feel pain, sorrow, loss, etc. Most of us feel very bad about what happened recently and the impact that the events will have on the families directly affected as well as our nation and the world. We need to be able to express ourselves when the need arises without worrying about which list we are posting too or whether the topic is relevant. If I receive a post that I don't care about, I can hit the delete key and it's gone, end of story (I don't as I always keep everything just in case I want to refer back). I suggest that before anyone gets offended to the poing of leaving the list, we have a show of hands, or in this case a show of posts as to who wants to allow other postings, and who does not. I'll start by saying that I am in favor of allowing off topic postings as long as they do not flood the list. A few here and there don't hurt anything. We are here for Mandrake Linux but there are other things to life and sometimes we need to discuss those other things. Gary Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] This is a linux mailing list
On Fri, 14 Sep 2001 10:52:30 -0500, you wrote: >MR HAVLIK. > >How many of your Mandrake customers are dead or maimed? How many potential >Mandrake business customers responsible for the re-building of IT >infrastructure have you just alienated? Does the death of more than five >thousand souls not transend the fact that this is a Linux mailing list? > >These are unprecedented events and you should take that into consideration. >This affects all countries, all peoples of the world and Mandrake Linux is >NOT more important. I do agree there may be forums set-up to discuss these >issues, but any place to communicate is appropriate and proper. > >If you have noticed, the original purpose of the list is proceeding as >normal, so what is the big deal? >You allow other OT topics such as Bill Gates is Satan and XP can be cracked. >What do these have to do with your customers learning how to use your >product? Not one damned thing, yet you and others defend the right for such >inappropriate postings. > >It seems to me that given your experiences you would understand, obviously >you do not! This is a world forum to discuss things which affect Linux and >Mandrake, is it not? Don't you think these past few days affect Linux & >Mandrake? > >Blacklist me if you like, I'm not sure I want to associate with someone like >you any further. > >Good day and open your mind! > Thats the part that really gets me - off topic, long ranging threads that don't mean shit can be discussed for weeks...but this, well, no! :-/ Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] This is a linux mailing list -- some people pay for email access by volume
Really, just to respond to the here, this is a problem that a lot of ISPs run into. Here's a basic run down of why. Some ISPs don't use very advanced equipment. And even those that do, there are always issues of software and of telecommunications isssues. Some small town ISPs are, for lack of a better comment, cheap bastards. They purchase 33.6 bps modems, and have them flash upgraded to whatever standard they need. So when you dial into your ISP, you're getting one of these cheap modems. Now, when a customer logs on, and then decides they've had their fill of all things Internet, the modem doesn't kill the call. So there's a modem there, that could be used, but is not! National average, for a dialup session is between 25 and 35 minutes. Yes there are those people that spend hours upon hours on the Internet, but across the board, you can say that most people spend 30 minutes on line. So as an ISP admin, you come across busy signals for users, or some other issue(Such as percieved paranoia by the ISP in your case Randy.), they kill the call to allow others to dial in. Even on more "advanced" equipment, the same problem comes into play. My day job is to monitor the worlds largest dialup network. (One of our customers, and our largest customers is AOL.) We have 3Com cards in modem racks around the world that cost anywhere from $10,000 to $5,000 EACH. Some of these modem cards have 24 modems, some of them have 4 modems on them. The code itself is pretty good, and there are some customers that have hours they spend on line with no problems. But at the same time, there are other problems such as code, or errors on the circuit that give incorrect information and a call appears to be a hung call. Where the call is no longer there, but the circuit and/or modem thinks it's still being used. So to combat that, a lot of local ISPs just do resets of modems after a certain time. Some of them do it via a script, some actually go and do it manually. And for these local ISPs, if you antagonize the owner or company, they my seek you our and drop your call. (I've known this to happen!) As far as your hardware causing a disconnect, it is possible. For example, V.90 has a "bug" that when downloading large email attachments, it may take a piece of the data, and confuse it as a disconnect singal. When you're downloading saying a 1Mb email message, and your modem tries to renegotiate the speed, it may get 10 digits of data, then pause. Well those last 3 digits may be seen as a disconnect command, and then do so. There's also the issue of line noise. This is harder to prove, but it's very possible and does happen quite often. Right behind my house runs a major highway, with semis of all sizes flying by. Hitting a bump in the road, and a semi's bouncing and vibration can shake a telephone pole and create line noise. The only problem is, that's a draw back of analog signals, and it's hard to prove unless it was being monitored at the exact moment. So the information you were given, does hold some truth to it, but I more suspect, that in your instance, your ISP may have been irritated with your call and is doing this purposely. :0) Hope that clears things up a little for ya. tdh -- T. Holmes - UNIXTECHS.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] - "Real Men Use Vi!" Uptime: 1:55pm up 4 days, 5:41, 6 users, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 | | (Except that my ISP has changed his rules since I signed up, and now | considers that if I remain connected for more than 4 to 12 hours (I | forget the exact rules), I am "hanging", and he takes it upon himself to | disconnect me. I can reconnect, but he seems to have his watchful eye | on me -- since I found out about the change in policy (I wasn't | notified), and when I called to find out what the problem was, I was | told that this policy was on the contract I signed (it isn't), and since | that phone call I'm quite certain I get disconnected more often than I | did before that phone call. (I should start a collection of logs, but | they claim that not all of the disconnections come from them -- some of | them might be from the phone company or other causes (my hardware? I | don't think so). Anyway, I didn't mean to get into that, but if anyone | knows how I can determine the cause of a disconnection not at my end of | the phone line, please let me know.) | | | Here is a page I've started for the purpose of assembling information | about metered access to the Internet (or email). | |* http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Test/MeteredInternetAccess | | Thanks, | Randy Kramer -- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] This is a linux mailing list -- some people pay for email access by volume
Randy Kramer wrote: (Except that my ISP has changed his rules since I signed up, and now considers that if I remain connected for more than 4 to 12 hours (I forget the exact rules), I am "hanging", and he takes it upon himself to disconnect me. I can reconnect, but he seems to have his watchful eye on me -- I used to get that kind of treatment from AOL, but I changed to earthlink, when I got serious about Linux and have never had that problem since. Another thing that struck me as strange, was that AOL gave me about 3 numbers and when I complained about waiting too l,ong to comnect, they gave me 3 more. Earthlink gave me just one number and I have never had a long wait to connect or been cut off. I hope this don't sound like a commercial, but I gotta tell it like it is. About the discussion of inappropriate topics, I feel that we should try to get along with each other first, before we start trying to save the world. I would like to see everyone on this list try to respect each other a little more. Some already are, but the majority are not. ShalomOut Chal Elder PCUSA Registered Linux user #217118 Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
RE: [newbie] This is a linux mailing list
I think this is because most people know more about Windows than LInux. I know I do. If somebody has a question to ask and I know the answer(and I had the time to read e-mail that day), I answer it. jim Quoting John W <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Yes this is a Linux mailing list. I am often amazed at how many Linux > questions go unanswered and how much time is spemt helping people > with general windows questions. I have voiced my opinions about this and > the answer I was given, "Do you have a delete key"? > So if you are not happy with the attacks on the USA use your delete key and > > your filters!!! > > John > > > Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] This is a linux mailing list
MR HAVLIK. How many of your Mandrake customers are dead or maimed? How many potential Mandrake business customers responsible for the re-building of IT infrastructure have you just alienated? Does the death of more than five thousand souls not transend the fact that this is a Linux mailing list? These are unprecedented events and you should take that into consideration. This affects all countries, all peoples of the world and Mandrake Linux is NOT more important. I do agree there may be forums set-up to discuss these issues, but any place to communicate is appropriate and proper. If you have noticed, the original purpose of the list is proceeding as normal, so what is the big deal? You allow other OT topics such as Bill Gates is Satan and XP can be cracked. What do these have to do with your customers learning how to use your product? Not one damned thing, yet you and others defend the right for such inappropriate postings. It seems to me that given your experiences you would understand, obviously you do not! This is a world forum to discuss things which affect Linux and Mandrake, is it not? Don't you think these past few days affect Linux & Mandrake? Blacklist me if you like, I'm not sure I want to associate with someone like you any further. Good day and open your mind! Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] This is a linux mailing list -- some people pay foremail access by volume
on 9/14/01 9:58 AM, Randy Kramer at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Matt Greer wrote: >> Actually that's not true. Here in Chicago local calls cost by the minute, as >> much as 9 cents per minute. This is probably true of New York and LA as >> well, but I don't know for sure. > > Matt, > > Thanks for the reply! > > So in Chicago, you can't pay a (slighly (or significantly?)) higher rate > to get unlimited local calls? There's a plan where you can pay a fee (I think it's $10/month) then all calls are ten cents per call. The cost of the local call depends on distance. Close calls are 5 cents/call. The longest distance is the 9 cents/minute I said previously. The plan above makes all calls ten cents regardless of distance. My problem was I never found any isp within the 5 cents/call range where I live. The best I could find was 5 cents/minute. But no matter what you do, there's no unlimited calls at a fixed rate. At least there wasn't, I haven't had a phone in a little over a year now. I'll dig on Ameritech's site and see if I can find the rates. Matt _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] This is a linux mailing list -- some people pay for email access by volume
Matt Greer wrote: > Actually that's not true. Here in Chicago local calls cost by the minute, as > much as 9 cents per minute. This is probably true of New York and LA as > well, but I don't know for sure. Matt, Thanks for the reply! So in Chicago, you can't pay a (slighly (or significantly?)) higher rate to get unlimited local calls? Thanks, Randy Kramer Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] This is a linux mailing list -- some people pay foremail access by volume
on 9/14/01 8:55 AM, Paul at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Most people in Europe that do not have access to ADSL or Cable internet (like > me). Using a phone line already costs money, local phone calls are charged > between $0.60 and $1.00 per hour (as far as I know) > >> What I mean is that the US is not a place where, AFAIK, anyone should >> have such a problem. Actually that's not true. Here in Chicago local calls cost by the minute, as much as 9 cents per minute. This is probably true of New York and LA as well, but I don't know for sure. I have a cable modem and cell phone and it's actually cheaper than having a standard phone line and dial up internet access. Matt _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] This is a linux mailing list -- some people pay for email access by volume
> Out of curiosity, I would be interested in having some ideas about: > >* how many people (what regions of the world) have to pay a "metered" > rate for their Internet access Most people in Europe that do not have access to ADSL or Cable internet (like me). Using a phone line already costs money, local phone calls are charged between $0.60 and $1.00 per hour (as far as I know) > What I mean is that the US is not a place where, AFAIK, anyone should > have such a problem. Correct. In the US. I am in the Netherlands, paying an ISDN line (about US$ 30 a month), my ISP ($15 a month) and the local phone charges of $.60 per hour. No charge on the amount of bandwidth I use unless I take things to extremes. But with these charges, taking the extreme route is not what I am aiming at. I don't even download things > 8 megs. Only downloading my mail and usenet messages (offline) costs me around $100 per month, not counting the costs of the ISDN line. (I used mailfilter to toss spam etc. off the server before downloading, but that took about as long as downloading everything and then let procmail take care of things.) Expensive enough, me thinks... I hope this satisfies part of your curiosity. Paul Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] This is a linux mailing list -- some people pay for email access by volume
Tim Holmes wrote: > But why are people a) complaining about it, b) messages like this > suddenly being posted? It takes less time to delete an email then it > does to compose a message in complaint saying that you want something > done on the list about a certain topic. This message is intended to be carefully neutral about this thread, and is intended to only remind us all that some people do not have unlimited bandwidth but must pay by the minute (or something similar) for their connection time. Hence receiving unwanted messages costs them money. I don't know how much, I don't know whether it is a burden, but filtering does not solve the problem (unless they can set up one of the more modern approaches to filtering which I think exist and which I think can delete mail on their ISP's server before it is sent to them. Out of curiosity, I would be interested in having some ideas about: * how many people (what regions of the world) have to pay a "metered" rate for their Internet access * to how many people in each region that might be a burden (presumably no existing metered rates would impact Bill Gate's usage of the Internet) * are there really filters that work at an ISP, and can someone who is not using Linux make use of them However, I'm not proposing that lots of people post messages to this group answering the question -- it will just add to the problem. Maybe I'll start a wiki page for collecting such information, and maybe the approach should be to do it by exception. What I mean is that the US is not a place where, AFAIK, anyone should have such a problem. AFAIK, almost anywhere in the US, people can arrange to get a phone line with unlimited local usage at a reasonable rate ($15 to $40/month?), find an ISP within the local calling area, and get an unlimited usage ISP dial up account for a reasonable rate ($12 to $24/month). (Except that my ISP has changed his rules since I signed up, and now considers that if I remain connected for more than 4 to 12 hours (I forget the exact rules), I am "hanging", and he takes it upon himself to disconnect me. I can reconnect, but he seems to have his watchful eye on me -- since I found out about the change in policy (I wasn't notified), and when I called to find out what the problem was, I was told that this policy was on the contract I signed (it isn't), and since that phone call I'm quite certain I get disconnected more often than I did before that phone call. (I should start a collection of logs, but they claim that not all of the disconnections come from them -- some of them might be from the phone company or other causes (my hardware? I don't think so). Anyway, I didn't mean to get into that, but if anyone knows how I can determine the cause of a disconnection not at my end of the phone line, please let me know.) Here is a page I've started for the purpose of assembling information about metered access to the Internet (or email). * http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Test/MeteredInternetAccess Thanks, Randy Kramer Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] This is a linux mailing list
On Fri, 14 Sep 2001 06:49:17 -0400, you wrote: >Rog and everone else that cannot find the "delete" key. >Please do not abandon this list, and do not ask to be killefiled or otherwise >put your heads in the sand. world wide co-operation and "humanization" is >almost the only way we have to prevent the types of tragedies we are living >thru. I KNOW you all knew that at one point without even discussing it. true >we do NEED to keep this focused on Mandrake Linux as our tool to have a >chance to offer human kindness to individuals world wide. if we close >ourselves off, we have a much more difficult time making others realize we >are as human and caring as they are. >That said, the delete key can be found on most keyboard right below the >insert key, and to the right of the carriage return or enter. (you know, the >one you use in M$winder$ [along with the Ctrl and Alt keys] to fix a >freezeup). > etharp- I am not one of those who cannot find my "delete" key. I live 10 minutes outside the city - I can see the rubble. My girlfriend lives on 12th street, I have not been able to get to her (I'm hoping today I can get her into Jersey), and today was only the second time we were able to speak since it happened. I have countless friends in the city, including a handful that work on Wall Street, all of whom fortunately are accounted for. Most of whom saw the second plane hit. Most of whom lost friends. I can't understand the motivation to banish people from the list for posting about this...when I suggested that the mandrakesoft clown who started the blacklisting talk killfile me, it was because I simply have no need to speak to him, ever. I don't have a problem with it being posted about here - like any other social group (which is what lists like this are, regardless of the stated topic), I can't imagine it not being discussed. peace, Rog > >On Friday 14 September 2001 00:49, you had thoughts to the concept of: >> On Thu, 13 Sep 2001 16:15:03 +0200 (CEST), you wrote: >> >FYI, I'll take a look at the list tomorrow, and blacklist everyone who is >> >still talking about politics there. You are still welcome to discuss what >> >happened in one of these threads: >> >> Just curious - do you run this list? You've said twice how you'll >> "blacklist" anyone still discussing it tomorrow as though you have the >> ability to have us thrown off the list. If you are just talking about >> killfiling people, please killfile me now, as I have no need for >> discussion with you, about Linux or anything else. > > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; name="message.footer" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Content-Description: > Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] This is a linux mailing list
Rog and everone else that cannot find the "delete" key. Please do not abandon this list, and do not ask to be killefiled or otherwise put your heads in the sand. world wide co-operation and "humanization" is almost the only way we have to prevent the types of tragedies we are living thru. I KNOW you all knew that at one point without even discussing it. true we do NEED to keep this focused on Mandrake Linux as our tool to have a chance to offer human kindness to individuals world wide. if we close ourselves off, we have a much more difficult time making others realize we are as human and caring as they are. That said, the delete key can be found on most keyboard right below the insert key, and to the right of the carriage return or enter. (you know, the one you use in M$winder$ [along with the Ctrl and Alt keys] to fix a freezeup). On Friday 14 September 2001 00:49, you had thoughts to the concept of: > On Thu, 13 Sep 2001 16:15:03 +0200 (CEST), you wrote: > >FYI, I'll take a look at the list tomorrow, and blacklist everyone who is > >still talking about politics there. You are still welcome to discuss what > >happened in one of these threads: > > Just curious - do you run this list? You've said twice how you'll > "blacklist" anyone still discussing it tomorrow as though you have the > ability to have us thrown off the list. If you are just talking about > killfiling people, please killfile me now, as I have no need for > discussion with you, about Linux or anything else. Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; name="message.footer" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Description: Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
RE: [newbie] This is a linux mailing list
I think the post in question was from one of the mandrake team... and as much as I sympathise with the situation, I agree with them... It is to easy to get into huge arguements about percieved right and wrong... and it really achives nothing except for alot of bad feeling... All the messages about prayer and good will are fine I guess, but when you start debating right and wrong, then its time to go back to linux problems. I don't think anyone has been unsympathetic, but they have probably seem this sort of thing before, people get emotional, and rightly or otherwise, start defending their positions... which leads to arguements, (which we sore the start of in the last couple of days) and name calling and all the other stuff... none of which helps.. So they try to move people on... its not a bad thing, and at least Civilme was nice enough to start another mailing list for the people wanting to talk about it.. No need to be offended by it. just my thoughts.. rgds Frankn -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Rog Sent: Friday, 14 September 2001 12:50 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [newbie] This is a linux mailing list On Thu, 13 Sep 2001 16:15:03 +0200 (CEST), you wrote: > >FYI, I'll take a look at the list tomorrow, and blacklist everyone who is >still talking about politics there. You are still welcome to discuss what >happened in one of these threads: Just curious - do you run this list? You've said twice how you'll "blacklist" anyone still discussing it tomorrow as though you have the ability to have us thrown off the list. If you are just talking about killfiling people, please killfile me now, as I have no need for discussion with you, about Linux or anything else. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] This is a linux mailing list
On Thu, 13 Sep 2001 16:15:03 +0200 (CEST), you wrote: > >FYI, I'll take a look at the list tomorrow, and blacklist everyone who is >still talking about politics there. You are still welcome to discuss what >happened in one of these threads: Just curious - do you run this list? You've said twice how you'll "blacklist" anyone still discussing it tomorrow as though you have the ability to have us thrown off the list. If you are just talking about killfiling people, please killfile me now, as I have no need for discussion with you, about Linux or anything else. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
RE: [newbie] This is a linux mailing list
Yes this is a Linux mailing list. I am often amazed at how many Linux questions go unanswered and how much time is spemt helping people with general windows questions. I have voiced my opinions about this and the answer I was given, "Do you have a delete key"? So if you are not happy with the attacks on the USA use your delete key and your filters!!! John Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] This is a linux mailing list
On Thursday 13 September 2001 08:53 am, you wrote: > on 9/13/01 8:15 AM, Charles A Edwards at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >> -Original Message- > >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of > >> Denis HAVLIK > >> > >> > >> Hi, folks > >> > >> While I do agree that recent airplane flights which missed > >> their intended > >> destinations and bumped in WTC and pentagon ARE extremely interesting > >> subjects for discussion, it is time to remind you that this is a > >> LINUX-MANDRAKE related mailing list. > > > > But I find your above comment trivializing the terrorist > > attack and the death of what now looks to be more than 6000 > > people as being patently offensive > > Denis' comment was simply immature, and of course very offensive as well. > That's the kind of thing that people hide behind their computers to say. > > Matt > Offensive, rude, inconsiderate and just plain mean spirited. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
RE: [newbie] This is a linux mailing list
> -Original Message- > From: Denis HAVLIK [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 10:15 AM > To: Charles A Edwards > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [newbie] This is a linux mailing list > > > > Charles, > > Your ignorance makes me sick. > > FYI, I come from a country which suffered in a very filthy > war in 90-s, > Several percents of the population were killed, and ca 20-30% of the > people were forced to flee their homes (most never returned). In > fact, war has been so bad that no one has the guts to do a population > census yet. > > Family of my wife has been terorised for years, their possesions were > taken away, they were denied right to work (and thus earn a > living), and > only providence saved her father from death - simply because > they refused > to go away from a town where they were born and lived all their life. > The rest of her family is today either dispersed all over the > world (only > her parents stayed where they were), or dead. > My family was luckier (they lived on a "right" place for our > nationality): > they had to go trough a period of dispair and luck of money, > but none of > them was physically in danger except for my oncel. > > Still, I never insisted on discussing that in a linux mailing list , > simply because this is not appropriate place to do it. > I was not discussing the Events on this list. I was addressing the comment that YOU, a Mandrakesoft employee, made regrading said events. True, I knew nothing of your history so of that then yes I, by definition am ignorant. But being apprised of said history it make your comment " that recent airplane flights which missed their intended destinations and bumped in WTC and pentagon" even more macabre. You made this comment, not I or someother who wished to provoke this discussion. If what I said, to you showed sickening ignorance, what, with your history, do your words show of you. Your point as to the purpose of this list and the actions you would take starting tomorrow were complete unto themself. They did not require the preface which I found objectionable. Do me one favor. Read your post again. Not as you wrote it, but as someone such as I who has been deeply affected by the events would read it. If you find nothing with which someone might take umbrage so be it. Nothing more need be said. Charles A Edwards Forever never goes beyond tomorrow. And for too many there are now no tommorows. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
RE: [newbie] This is a linux mailing list
On Thu, 13 Sep 2001, Charles A Edwards wrote: + I was not discussing the Events on this list. + I was addressing the comment that YOU, a Mandrakesoft + employee, made regrading said events. + + True, I knew nothing of your history so of that then + yes I, by definition am ignorant. + + But being apprised of said history it make your comment + " that recent airplane flights which missed their intended + destinations and bumped in WTC and pentagon" + even more macabre. Ah, you mean that? Well, a war makes you somewhat cynical, that's the way to keep the sanity. Sorry for that, I do care about people who lost their lives, I just don't have a habit of expressing it very loudly. cu Denis -- - Dr. Denis Havlik http://MandrakeForum.com Mandrakesoft ||| e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Community (@ @)(private: [EMAIL PROTECTED]) --oOO--(_)--OOo- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
RE: [newbie] This is a linux mailing list
On Thu, 13 Sep 2001, Charles A Edwards wrote: + Denis + + I agree that this is a linux list and that there are better + forums for the discussion of the events of 9/11/2001 and as + such I have reframed from making any comments, till now. + + But I find your above comment trivializing the terrorist + attack and the death of what now looks to be more than 6000 + people as being patently offensive. Charles, Your ignorance makes me sick. FYI, I come from a country which suffered in a very filthy war in 90-s, Several percents of the population were killed, and ca 20-30% of the people were forced to flee their homes (most never returned). In fact, war has been so bad that no one has the guts to do a population census yet. Family of my wife has been terorised for years, their possesions were taken away, they were denied right to work (and thus earn a living), and only providence saved her father from death - simply because they refused to go away from a town where they were born and lived all their life. The rest of her family is today either dispersed all over the world (only her parents stayed where they were), or dead. My family was luckier (they lived on a "right" place for our nationality): they had to go trough a period of dispair and luck of money, but none of them was physically in danger except for my oncel. Still, I never insisted on discussing that in a linux mailing list , simply because this is not appropriate place to do it. Mandrakesoft mailing lists are to an extent open for non-related discussions, but at the moment when people start complaining about never-ending discussions which aren't related to linux I'm required to put an end to it. FYI, I'll take a look at the list tomorrow, and blacklist everyone who is still talking about politics there. You are still welcome to discuss what happened in one of these threads: http://www.mandrakeforum.com/article.php?sid=1169&lang=en http://www.mandrakeforum.com/article.php?sid=1170&lang=en http://www.mandrakeforum.com/article.php?sid=1171&lang=en cu Denis -- - Dr. Denis Havlik http://MandrakeForum.com Mandrakesoft ||| e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Community (@ @)(private: [EMAIL PROTECTED]) --oOO--(_)--OOo- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] This is a linux mailing list
on 9/13/01 8:15 AM, Charles A Edwards at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >> -Original Message- >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of >> Denis HAVLIK >> >> Hi, folks >> >> While I do agree that recent airplane flights which missed >> their intended >> destinations and bumped in WTC and pentagon ARE extremely interesting >> subjects for discussion, it is time to remind you that this is a >> LINUX-MANDRAKE related mailing list. > But I find your above comment trivializing the terrorist > attack and the death of what now looks to be more than 6000 > people as being patently offensive Denis' comment was simply immature, and of course very offensive as well. That's the kind of thing that people hide behind their computers to say. Matt _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
