Re: [newbie] aol, html and related issues. round 4
ed tharp wrote: set a man next to a fire and he stays warm all night, light a man on fire and he stays hot for the rest of his life 'cremation of sam mcgraw'. remember it well. peace out. tc,hago. g . -- =+= think green... save a tree, save a life, save time, save bandwidth, save storage. send email: text/plain - disable pgp/gpg/geek code attachments. =+= if you are proud to be an american, then buy "made in america". Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] aol, html and related issues. round 4
Technoslick wrote: [snip] your are welcome for link. i would have thougth by now that you would have been more up with http://www.google.com/linux do not recall count on search i feed in, but link was in first 10. have a safe trip. peace out. tc,hago. g . -- =+= think green... save a tree, save a life, save time, save bandwidth, save storage. send email: text/plain - disable pgp/gpg/geek code attachments. =+= if you are proud to be an american, then buy "made in america". Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] aol, html and related issues. round 4
Technoslick; Nicely done! I agree with you completely! G seems to base his day to day experiences on this list with a tad too much presumptive arrogance! Perhaps he's too good for this list and should move on to the "Linux for arrogant elitist people" list? Hope you got packed in time for your trip. Have a good one! Lanman *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 6/2/2003 at 7:36 AM Technoslick wrote: >On Sunday 01 June 2003 10:02 pm, g graced me with: > >> and, in addition to what i wrote before, i say this; >> >> give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. >> teach a man to fish and you feed him for a life time. >> >> show a newbie bad habits and you teach him wrong for a life time. > >It's human nature to take the path of least resistance, "g". That goes >beyond "newbieism". Any bad habits taught here are usually by >accident. Of course, if someone more knowledgable teaches me a bad or >lazy way to solve a problem, I would consider it based on it's >ability to get the results I want. I am results oriented, though I >still want to know "why?". Most newbies are interested in solving a >problem. > >You're being anal about procedures. We tolerate poorly worded >questions and lack of thorough reading because we all have been there >and understand why it happens. You would filter the less than perfect >out of Linux. Sounds like the attitude of some ten years ago. >Thankfully, those people are no longer hindering the progress of >Linux with their primitive biases. > >> how many newbies use html? too damn many. > >Because they don't know it has harmful side-affects and there's been >no one to tell them differently. Until now. Accept that and move on >to help, instead of complaining. > >> how many newbies take time to read help files? very few. > >I really don't know that number, "g". I am sure to agree with you that >not enough do. I will also ask you to realize that not all docs were >designed for newbies to understand. I can attest to that and would >argue with anyone that this is true. And if docs are read and not >understood, isn't the point of this list to give the human element, >which is often what is needed to break the ice to understanding? > >> how many newbies make there first question 'how do i send plain >> text'? none > >Duh! That's so stupid. In the world that I live in, the ignorant are >not omniprescient. Your standards are way too high for this list and >its desired intention. When a newbie lists asks newbies to act like >experts to learn how not to be newbies, they need to change the name >of their list to 'apprenticing experts'. > >Today's GUI email clients are designed to make HTML mail automatic and >transparent to the user. It wasn't always that way, as you well know. >Where it use to be a challenge to find how to make it your default, >now it can be a challenge to turn it off. Stop whipping people for >not knowing what to do. Lighten up and give constructive criticism, >or let it go and mumble your concerns to yourself. > >> how many experts use html to reply to an html newbie? >> too damn many. > >Again, I found myself in this situation and was repremanded in a very >respectful way. Once I was alerted, I investigated the problem and >came up with a solution. Someone then told me later on that I should >have a line length to keep my lines within readability. I didn't even >realize what was happening. It wasn't obvious because I wasn't >looking. I was asked to change this and I complied, even thanked the >person for telling me. Would you have had me whipped and scourged >instead? That's a great teaching method. > >> most every one who subscribes to this list is aware that there is a >> request for subscribers to use 'text/plain'. > >I would like to see a ratio of numbers to understand what you mean by >'most'. Over fifty percent? Seventy-five? Ninety-nine-point-nine? How >can you make such an assumption when you really can't know? Are you >telling me that you have the ability to read the minds of lurkers and >posters alike and see who does, who doesn't, and form such an >opinion? And if you saw such facts posted through one of your Google >searches, does that number specifically apply to this list, this >forum, this time and place? > >You have a habit of assuming that everyone around you just knows >what's right and wrong. You are right in your motive, I'll give you >that. You are terribly wrong in your delivery of a viable solution. > >> there is no excuse for any user of aol, eudora, mozilla, kmail, >> ximian, ole, or multitude of other email progs, to send text/html. >> yet they do. > >There's no excuse for making a mistake, not knowing the answer to a >problem, not being able to do something correctly, not being able to >see the way to make something work. So? Welcome to what makes us Homo >Sapiens. That's why our courts have judges, we have lawyers to plead >our side of the story, why we give second chances and accept >apologies. > >> why? because they really do not
Re: [newbie] aol, html and related issues. round 4
On Sunday 01 June 2003 10:02 pm, g graced me with: > and, in addition to what i wrote before, i say this; > > give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. > teach a man to fish and you feed him for a life time. > > show a newbie bad habits and you teach him wrong for a life time. It's human nature to take the path of least resistance, "g". That goes beyond "newbieism". Any bad habits taught here are usually by accident. Of course, if someone more knowledgable teaches me a bad or lazy way to solve a problem, I would consider it based on it's ability to get the results I want. I am results oriented, though I still want to know "why?". Most newbies are interested in solving a problem. You're being anal about procedures. We tolerate poorly worded questions and lack of thorough reading because we all have been there and understand why it happens. You would filter the less than perfect out of Linux. Sounds like the attitude of some ten years ago. Thankfully, those people are no longer hindering the progress of Linux with their primitive biases. > how many newbies use html? too damn many. Because they don't know it has harmful side-affects and there's been no one to tell them differently. Until now. Accept that and move on to help, instead of complaining. > how many newbies take time to read help files? very few. I really don't know that number, "g". I am sure to agree with you that not enough do. I will also ask you to realize that not all docs were designed for newbies to understand. I can attest to that and would argue with anyone that this is true. And if docs are read and not understood, isn't the point of this list to give the human element, which is often what is needed to break the ice to understanding? > how many newbies make there first question 'how do i send plain > text'? none Duh! That's so stupid. In the world that I live in, the ignorant are not omniprescient. Your standards are way too high for this list and its desired intention. When a newbie lists asks newbies to act like experts to learn how not to be newbies, they need to change the name of their list to 'apprenticing experts'. Today's GUI email clients are designed to make HTML mail automatic and transparent to the user. It wasn't always that way, as you well know. Where it use to be a challenge to find how to make it your default, now it can be a challenge to turn it off. Stop whipping people for not knowing what to do. Lighten up and give constructive criticism, or let it go and mumble your concerns to yourself. > how many experts use html to reply to an html newbie? > too damn many. Again, I found myself in this situation and was repremanded in a very respectful way. Once I was alerted, I investigated the problem and came up with a solution. Someone then told me later on that I should have a line length to keep my lines within readability. I didn't even realize what was happening. It wasn't obvious because I wasn't looking. I was asked to change this and I complied, even thanked the person for telling me. Would you have had me whipped and scourged instead? That's a great teaching method. > most every one who subscribes to this list is aware that there is a > request for subscribers to use 'text/plain'. I would like to see a ratio of numbers to understand what you mean by 'most'. Over fifty percent? Seventy-five? Ninety-nine-point-nine? How can you make such an assumption when you really can't know? Are you telling me that you have the ability to read the minds of lurkers and posters alike and see who does, who doesn't, and form such an opinion? And if you saw such facts posted through one of your Google searches, does that number specifically apply to this list, this forum, this time and place? You have a habit of assuming that everyone around you just knows what's right and wrong. You are right in your motive, I'll give you that. You are terribly wrong in your delivery of a viable solution. > there is no excuse for any user of aol, eudora, mozilla, kmail, > ximian, ole, or multitude of other email progs, to send text/html. > yet they do. There's no excuse for making a mistake, not knowing the answer to a problem, not being able to do something correctly, not being able to see the way to make something work. So? Welcome to what makes us Homo Sapiens. That's why our courts have judges, we have lawyers to plead our side of the story, why we give second chances and accept apologies. > why? because they really do not give a damn about anyone but them > selves. or so it seems, because they continue to send text/html. You must be psychic, "g". For you seem to be the only one I have met that can make such generalizations without proof and be indignant about no one taking you seriously. You have no proof or any numbers to base such a negative bias on. You are being negatively anal about a real issue that deserves attention. > crawl my butt, flame me, call me what
Re: [newbie] aol, html and related issues. round 4
Anne Wilson wrote: > g appears to forget that I advocated teaching him to fish. He > advocated shoving him into the river. it would be a good way for 'him' to learn to swim. :) but, no. i do not advocate shoving 'him' into a river. nor do i note anywhere that i made reference to your preferences of sports. to continue replying to someone using html, when they can disable html, is not teaching them anything, that is except bad habits. peace out. tc,hago. g . -- =+= think green... save a tree, save a life, save time, save bandwidth, save storage. send email: text/plain - disable pgp/gpg/geek code attachments. =+= if you are proud to be an american, then buy "made in america". Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] aol, html and related issues. round 4
On Mon, 2003-06-02 at 06:39, JoeHill wrote: > On Mon, 2 Jun 2003 11:08:34 +0100 > Anne Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > > > g appears to forget that I advocated teaching him to fish. He > > advocated shoving him into the river. > > holy mary mother of god is this thread going to go on forever? > > oh, right, sorry. And just to make this thread longer,, the corrected quote for this list list about teach a man to fish set a man next to a fire and he stays warm all night, light a man on fire and he stays hot for the rest of his life Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] aol, html and related issues. round 4
On Mon, 2 Jun 2003 11:08:34 +0100 Anne Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> uttered: > g appears to forget that I advocated teaching him to fish. He > advocated shoving him into the river. holy mary mother of god is this thread going to go on forever? oh, right, sorry. -- Joehill Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: http://nodex.sytes.net 06:39:06 up 1 day, 17:27, 3 users, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] aol, html and related issues. round 4
On Monday 02 Jun 2003 5:00 am, eric huff wrote: > > give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. > > teach a man to fish and you feed him for a life time. > > I thought that was: > > give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. > teach a man to fish and he'll drink beer all day. g appears to forget that I advocated teaching him to fish. He advocated shoving him into the river. Anne Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] aol, html and related issues. round 4
eric huff wrote: I thought that was: give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. teach a man to fish and he'll drink beer all day. got to have something to drink to keep from being boarded when they are not biting. peace out. tc,hago. g . -- =+= think green... save a tree, save a life, save time, save bandwidth, save storage. send email: text/plain - disable pgp/gpg/geek code attachments. =+= if you are proud to be an american, then buy "made in america". Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] aol, html and related issues. round 4
Carroll Grigsby wrote: how many newbies use html? too damn many. -- Mostly because they don't realize that (1) there is an option, (2) using HTML can be hazardous, (3) HTML is inefficient, (4) form != substance, and (5) they're fishing with the wrong bait. as i said, newbies do not care. > On the good side, AFAIK we've never > gotten a posting using 30 pt Gothic Cyrillian script font on a mauve > background with embedded audio and video clips. lets not be giving them any ideas. :) how many newbies take time to read help files? very few. -- So-called help files often aren't. i have yet to see an email prog with ability to send text as plain or html and not contain in help how to select one of other. how many newbies make there first question 'how do i send plain text'? none -- And why would they know? They're newbies. if they can read to join list, they can read request to send plain text. how many experts use html to reply to an html newbie? too damn many. -- Not that I've noticed, but I'm not going to argue the point. Most of the HTML posts from long-timers that I've seen are from folks who are at work where HTML is the accepted standard. i think you need to look a little closer at headers. most every one who subscribes to this list is aware that there is a request for subscribers to use 'text/plain'. -- You are making the assumption that people actually read the instructions beforehand and, for those who do, that they understand the difference between HTML and plain text. if they do not know diff, they should stay out of linux. linux requires reading as well as understanding.. > FWIW, I made a suggestion a while back that new subscribers be required to verify that they had read the terms of usage before they were granted access. The response was less than underwhelming. a 'toa' is really not necessary. if a subscriber, whether a newbie or expert post in html, then those who reply should reply only with 'please re post in plain text'. not say, 'oh, well', and then answer. they will get help, and from what i have seen, they will get even more help from subscribers who do not reply to html. there is no excuse for any user of aol, eudora, mozilla, kmail, ximian, ole, or multitude of other email progs, to send text/html. yet they do. -- Sure there is: They don't know any better. that is not a good reason. but, before you show how little you are aware of, check this site; http://www.expita.com/nomime.html -- And how are newbies supposed to know about that address? Hell, I'm willing to bet that lots of long time users, including me, never heard of it. google and for those using eudora, i suggest you check iss sight to see how unsafe eudora is, even when using text/plain. -- I'm cool here. Never used Eudora. i did try it years back, disabled html, but still did not like it. -- What's wrong with lazy? nothing that i know of. unless it is being too lazy to disable html, or to find an email prog that either does not have html or at lest to disable sending html. :) peace out. tc,hago. g . -- =+= think green... save a tree, save a life, save time, save bandwidth, save storage. send email: text/plain - disable pgp/gpg/geek code attachments. =+= if you are proud to be an american, then buy "made in america". Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] aol, html and related issues. round 4
> give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. > teach a man to fish and you feed him for a life time. I thought that was: give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. teach a man to fish and he'll drink beer all day. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] aol, html and related issues. round 4
Eric Scott wrote: Just for the record, it is impossible to send plaintext with AOL 8.0, I've tried it. Yes, it is also impossible to send with AOL on the web, no matter what those sites say. so you are saying that you have personally tried to use http://www.aol.com/aolmail and it did not work? interesting. did you try 'AOL 6.0, 7.0, 8.0 Alternate'? i am not questioning you because i doubt you, but it would be something that boyd maybe interested in. i noted that his original date of page is 'Copyright (c) 1998-2002 G.E.Boyd' and shows 'Last Revised: January 08, 2003'. peace out. tc,hago. g . -- =+= think green... save a tree, save a life, save time, save bandwidth, save storage. send email: text/plain - disable pgp/gpg/geek code attachments. =+= if you are proud to be an american, then buy "made in america". Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] aol, html and related issues. round 4
On Sunday 01 June 2003 10:02 pm, g wrote: >>> snipped > how many newbies use html? too damn many. -- Mostly because they don't realize that (1) there is an option, (2) using HTML can be hazardous, (3) HTML is inefficient, (4) form != substance, and (5) they're fishing with the wrong bait. On the good side, AFAIK we've never gotten a posting using 30 pt Gothic Cyrillian script font on a mauve background with embedded audio and video clips. > how many newbies take time to read help files? very few. -- So-called help files often aren't. Sadly, this problem is not confined to the MS world. What newbies need to be told about are man, info, apropos... where to find the archives, and other sources. Google's useful, too. > how many newbies make there first question 'how do i send plain text'? none -- And why would they know? They're newbies. > how many experts use html to reply to an html newbie? too damn many. -- Not that I've noticed, but I'm not going to argue the point. Most of the HTML posts from long-timers that I've seen are from folks who are at work where HTML is the accepted standard. > most every one who subscribes to this list is aware that there is a request > for subscribers to use 'text/plain'. -- You are making the assumption that people actually read the instructions beforehand and, for those who do, that they understand the difference between HTML and plain text. FWIW, I made a suggestion a while back that new subscribers be required to verify that they had read the terms of usage before they were granted access. The response was less than underwhelming. > there is no excuse for any user of aol, eudora, mozilla, kmail, ximian, > ole, or multitude of other email progs, to send text/html. yet they do. -- Sure there is: They don't know any better. > why? because they really do not give a damn about anyone but them selves. > or so it seems, because they continue to send text/html. -- See above > crawl my butt, flame me, call me what ever you want to, but i still contend > that there is no reason for anyone on this list to send text/html. -- See above > > so, raise hell with me about 'pitiful, poor newbies' who can not help but > send html. -- See above > but, before you show how little you are aware of, check this site; > > http://www.expita.com/nomime.html -- And how are newbies supposed to know about that address? Hell, I'm willing to bet that lots of long time users, including me, never heard of it. > and for those using eudora, i suggest you check iss sight to see how unsafe > eudora is, even when using text/plain. -- I'm cool here. Never used Eudora. > btw. anne, this is not in any way reflecting towards you. it is just that i > did not care to go thru all of these unnecessary post and find one to use > for reply. and no, i have never said that i was not lazy. -- What's wrong with lazy? > peace out. > > tc,hago. > > g > . > -- > =+= > think green... > save a tree, save a life, save time, save bandwidth, save storage. > send email: text/plain - disable pgp/gpg/geek code attachments. > =+= > if you are proud to be an american, then buy "made in america". -- I try, but there isn't much of that around anymore. -- cmg Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
