Re: Pentax - New Directions (now getting longer)
Chris wrote: > Uh... not exactly. Photographers can never learn how multipattern > metering systems work. Weird. I know how my Pentax multipattern metering works. >The algorithms are extremely complex; some Nikons, > for example, have a database of tens of thousands of sample scenes that > the camera will consider when choosing an exposure. This is a long lived myth. The camera manufacturers may well use thousands of images to find an agorithm for the matrix metering but the camera does not scan through thousands of images when it meters. >The photographer has > no idea whatsoever which of these scenes the camera will select. Matrix > metering does a good job with print film for the most part, but the point > is that the photographer, no matter how much they use it, will never be > able to know for sure how much importance the meter is attaching to each > individual segment in any given (and changing) lighting situation. At > least with CW metering you know exactly how much weight the camera gives > to the segments. This is a misunderstanding. The matrix metering will give you closer reading to the correct (here meant as 18% reflectance) than centerweighted metering. The difference in the real world is that matrix metering will compensate to some extent for backlit subjects. That's about the extent of it. Otherwise matrix metering will be equally fooled by scenes dominated by tones far off from medium; eg. like snow. I've checked matrix metering agains spot metering for several years now. Not once has the matrix meter suggested a weird or unpredictable exposure. Pål > > I'm sure that, given enough time and experimentation, a photographer can > learn how their camera weights the segments in some very common lighting > conditions, but this is almost impossible to assess because of the sheer > number of segments and variety of lighting conditions. And it's only good > until you switch cameras (most of the MZ series, for example, use > different algorithms to decode the same six segments). > > chris > - > This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, > go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to > visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org . - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Pentax - New Directions (now getting longer)
This is not true. Nikons do not have databases of thousands of scenes stored in the cameras. (Think about the technical problems in storing this much data and instantly searching and accessing it back in 1983; when the FA came out.) What Nikon did was analyze tens of thousands of images to derive exposure rules based on metered differences between segments. My experience is that multi segment/matrix metering works very well for the vast majority of scenes. The trick is to find out where it won't work, and the only way to do that is to shoot many pictures in that metering mode. When I don't think matrix will work right I use spot metering. With bodies that have matrix and spot I never use CW. FWIW: I've found Pentax (ZX-5) and Nikon (F100 & N80) metering to equally good. From: Chris Brogden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> The algorithms are extremely complex; some Nikons, for example, have a database of tens of thousands of sample scenes that the camera will consider when choosing an exposure. - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Re[2]: Pentax - New Directions (now getting longer)
>aren't you assuming the very point that's at question here? In other >words, if your camera meter disagrees with the external meter, you're >assuming that the camera meter is accurate and that the aperture or >shutter are inaccurate. But the purpose of the exercise is to >determine the accuracy of your meter, so you've made a circular >argument and undermined everything else you wrote. I don't know if it was my poor English (not my 1st language). This was not what I intended to say. I have never said (or did I?) the camera metering was accurate even if it was different from the incident readings. What I was trying to say is that "don't be surprised if the "chosen" shutter speed was different between 'A' and non-'A' setting on the lens. This is due to the mechanical aperture coupling tolerance difference (different lens/camera combinations have different results). It has nothing to do with the accuracy of the actual aperture or actual shutter speed, but the "chosen shutter speed" by the camera. And for the purpose of the test (to determine the accuracy of the metering, not the accuracy of the mechanical coupling), the lens is best to set to 'A'. This way, all communications are done electronically and there will be no chance for error (due to mechanical tolerance). The most important thing here is, we are not trying to determine the accuracy of the actual aperture of any lens (because every lens is different), or the accuracy of the mechanical aperture coupling (variable resistor), but the metering alone. regards, Alan Chan _ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Pentax - New Directions (now getting longer)
Hi! The following url tells how a matrix metering works but it is not quite clear to me. http://kenrockwell.com/nikon/matrix02.htm Please note that the page will take sometime to load because it contains a jpg file of size 350KB. I am quite sure that some of the list members must have electronics engineer as background. Could you please explain what that flow chart means? Cheers, Ayash. On Tue, 9 Jul 2002, Chris Brogden wrote: > On Tue, 9 Jul 2002, Pål Jensen wrote: > > > This is plain wrong. Evaluative meter is like any other meter; it > > tries to make everything medium toned. However, the notion that center > > weighed metering "solve" the problem or has a better "hit rate" is > > plain wrong. The fact that some people prefer center weighted > > metering because they know how it react to various scenes is fine. > > Agreed up to here. > > > However, this has nothing to do with matrix metering failure but the > > photographer not having learned how matrix metering works. > > Uh... not exactly. Photographers can never learn how multipattern > metering systems work. The algorithms are extremely complex; some Nikons, > for example, have a database of tens of thousands of sample scenes that > the camera will consider when choosing an exposure. The photographer has > no idea whatsoever which of these scenes the camera will select. Matrix > metering does a good job with print film for the most part, but the point > is that the photographer, no matter how much they use it, will never be > able to know for sure how much importance the meter is attaching to each > individual segment in any given (and changing) lighting situation. At > least with CW metering you know exactly how much weight the camera gives > to the segments. > > I'm sure that, given enough time and experimentation, a photographer can > learn how their camera weights the segments in some very common lighting > conditions, but this is almost impossible to assess because of the sheer > number of segments and variety of lighting conditions. And it's only good > until you switch cameras (most of the MZ series, for example, use > different algorithms to decode the same six segments). > > chris - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re[2]: Pentax - New Directions (now getting longer)
Hi, > PS: If your camera allowed you to set the aperture through the camera or the > aperture ring, don't be surprised if the chosen shutter speed differs a bit. > This is due to the rather "loose" manufacturing tolerance. aren't you assuming the very point that's at question here? In other words, if your camera meter disagrees with the external meter, you're assuming that the camera meter is accurate and that the aperture or shutter are inaccurate. But the purpose of the exercise is to determine the accuracy of your meter, so you've made a circular argument and undermined everything else you wrote. --- Bob mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Wednesday, July 10, 2002, 8:27:19 AM, you wrote: >>Can you explain in more detail? >>If I take a picture of a Kodak grey card in bright sunshine (say) and then >>compare the slide >>how do I know that I am not being fooled by the 'characteristics' of the >>film rather then exposure? >>I am sorry if this is obvious to you but it is not to me. >>I used to work on optical analytical equipment and perhaps I am thinking in >>to exact terms. >>With my cameras I just get to know the 'personality' of each >>and beat it around the head a bit until it does what I want ;-) >>I would like to be able to explain the procedure of 'calibrating' to my >>wife >>who is just getting into macro photography (MZ7 and either velvia or Kodak >>100 extra colour). >>Do you know of any links to articles about this? > My approach was rather simple. I have a Minolta IV F handheld meter which is > accurate up to 1/10EV (confirmed by the Minolta service centre). > 1) Place the Kodak card (the larger, the better) on a table. > 2) Light the card evenly, and the light source must be stable. (sunlight is > not a good choice because it varies every second even it appears perfectly > identical to human eyes). > 3) Place the light meter on different position of the grey card and take > some incident readings. If all reading are identical, the grey card will be > evenly lighted. > 4) Point the camera to the centre of the grey card to take some readings and > see if they match the incident readings from the handheld meter. This should > work for centre-weighted, spot & multi-segment meterings (since the grey > card was evenly lighted, the multi-segment metering should not do any > auto-adjustment itself, and would behave just like centre-weighted > metering). > PS: If your camera allowed you to set the aperture through the camera or the > aperture ring, don't be surprised if the chosen shutter speed differs a bit. > This is due to the rather "loose" manufacturing tolerance. > regards, > Alan Chan - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Pentax - New Directions (now getting longer)
On Tue, 9 Jul 2002 22:56:37 EDT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >> Coming from manual focus background, I cannot think of any improvement over >> the MZ-3/5n, except a better viewfinder. >> > >I think the build quality on the -5n could be a little better. Feature-wise, >it's close to ideal. Agreed. One other thing that could be better is tracking moving objects with the autofocus, I noticed the Z1 does a much better job at that than the MZ3 does ... Regards, JvW -- Jan van Wijk; http://www.dfsee.com/gallery - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
RE: Pentax - New Directions (now getting longer)
>Can you explain in more detail? >If I take a picture of a Kodak grey card in bright sunshine (say) and then >compare the slide >how do I know that I am not being fooled by the 'characteristics' of the >film rather then exposure? >I am sorry if this is obvious to you but it is not to me. >I used to work on optical analytical equipment and perhaps I am thinking in >to exact terms. >With my cameras I just get to know the 'personality' of each >and beat it around the head a bit until it does what I want ;-) >I would like to be able to explain the procedure of 'calibrating' to my >wife >who is just getting into macro photography (MZ7 and either velvia or Kodak >100 extra colour). >Do you know of any links to articles about this? My approach was rather simple. I have a Minolta IV F handheld meter which is accurate up to 1/10EV (confirmed by the Minolta service centre). 1) Place the Kodak card (the larger, the better) on a table. 2) Light the card evenly, and the light source must be stable. (sunlight is not a good choice because it varies every second even it appears perfectly identical to human eyes). 3) Place the light meter on different position of the grey card and take some incident readings. If all reading are identical, the grey card will be evenly lighted. 4) Point the camera to the centre of the grey card to take some readings and see if they match the incident readings from the handheld meter. This should work for centre-weighted, spot & multi-segment meterings (since the grey card was evenly lighted, the multi-segment metering should not do any auto-adjustment itself, and would behave just like centre-weighted metering). PS: If your camera allowed you to set the aperture through the camera or the aperture ring, don't be surprised if the chosen shutter speed differs a bit. This is due to the rather "loose" manufacturing tolerance. regards, Alan Chan _ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Pentax - New Directions (now getting longer)
On Tue, 9 Jul 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > In a message dated 7/9/2002 3:37:47 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] > writes: > > > > He also praises the all-mode DOF, saying "This is an improvement over the > > PZ1-P and ZX-5n, which allow a stop-down preview only in the aperture > > priority and manual modes". Don't they both allow DOF preview in all > > modes? > > > > You're half right. The PZ-1(p) only allow stop-down preview when the aperture > is set with the aperture ring, but the ZX-5n will do it in all modes. > > ERNR Yes, this is because the DOF of PZ-1P works mechanically whereas it is electronic in the case of ZX-5N. Ayash. - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Pentax - New Directions (now getting longer)
>I think the build quality on the -5n could be a little better. >Feature-wise, >it's close to ideal. But then if the built quality were better, wouldn't it be a "higher class" model then? I think Pentax should drop the 5n and made the 3 as affordable as the 5n, things would have been more "perfect". Their specs. are really too close to exist at the same time imo, except their "artifical" price tags. regards, Alan Chan _ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Pentax - New Directions (now getting longer)
On Mon, 8 Jul 2002, William Robb wrote: > Nikon and Minolta specifically. Not sure about Canon. > Who else has multi pattern metering? Canon has had some problems with their metering lately, notably the severe underexposure that the early Elan II's, EOS 3's, and Elan 7's (?) were doing. I believe they've 'fixed' most of those problems by now. chris - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Re: Pentax - New Directions (now getting longer)
> Coming from manual focus background, I cannot think of any improvement over > the MZ-3/5n, except a better viewfinder. > The lack of 1/2 stop shutter speeds in full manual mode (no numbers, just click stops 1/2 way in between). Some may also complain about the 2s maximum manual shutter speed, but anything longer than 2s is easy enough to time with a stop watch. OK, 4 seconds would be better. -Scott - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Pentax - New Directions (now getting longer)
- Original Message - From: Pål Jensen Subject: Re: Pentax - New Directions (now getting longer) > William wrote: > > > I have heard of problems with just about everyone's evaluative > > metering systems having some flaws with slide film. They all > > seem to overexpose somewhat in many situations. > > The trick would be to set the meter to center weighted, if the > > camera supports such a regressive feature. > > > This is plain wrong. . whatever. William Robb - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Pentax - New Directions (now getting longer)
A better winder motor would be nice. I'm worried that mine sounds like it's trying very hard to advance the film... Cory Waters - Original Message - From: "Alan Chan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 6:08 PM Subject: Re: Pentax - New Directions (now getting longer) > >Ah...well, this is potentially good news. Pentax may yet bring forth a > >capable medium-priced body to replace the 5n. I hope it will have a > >center-weighted option that is as easily accessible as it is now on the > >1p, 5n, and MZ-S. > > Coming from manual focus background, I cannot think of any improvement over > the MZ-3/5n, except a better viewfinder. > > regards, > Alan Chan > > > _ > Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com > - > This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, > go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to > visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org . - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Pentax - New Directions (now getting longer)
Pat wrote: >He also praises the all-mode DOF, saying "This is an improvement over the PZ1-P and >ZX-5n, which allow a stop-down >preview only in the aperture priority and manual >modes". Don't they both allow DOF preview in all modes? Actually, no. > I carry an incident meter, and almost every single time, it agrees very closely with >the MZ-S's evaluative reading. That's >my experience, anyway. This is also my experience. Pål - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Pentax - New Directions (now getting longer)
>Ah...well, this is potentially good news. Pentax may yet bring forth a >capable medium-priced body to replace the 5n. I hope it will have a >center-weighted option that is as easily accessible as it is now on the >1p, 5n, and MZ-S. Coming from manual focus background, I cannot think of any improvement over the MZ-3/5n, except a better viewfinder. regards, Alan Chan _ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Pentax - New Directions (now getting longer)
In a message dated 7/9/2002 3:37:47 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > He also praises the all-mode DOF, saying "This is an improvement over the > PZ1-P and ZX-5n, which allow a stop-down preview only in the aperture > priority and manual modes". Don't they both allow DOF preview in all > modes? > You're half right. The PZ-1(p) only allow stop-down preview when the aperture is set with the aperture ring, but the ZX-5n will do it in all modes. ERNR My photographs hang on the virtual walls at http://members.aol.com/ernreed - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Pentax - New Directions (now getting longer)
Joseph wrote: > Right. I made it all up. So have the other Pentax users who've posted on > this matter from time to time. In fact I think that the reviewers for > Shutterbug and Petersen's made it up too. Got you going, didn't we? It is true that all entry level slr's have matrix metering systems that are fine tuned to print film. This may lead to slight over exposure for certain scenes. However, what you are making up is that center weighted metering fares any better. Those scenes that will be overexposed with matrix metering will be underexposed with center weighted metering. You have to compensate in both cases. Pål - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Pentax - New Directions (now getting longer)
William wrote: > I have heard of problems with just about everyone's evaluative > metering systems having some flaws with slide film. They all > seem to overexpose somewhat in many situations. > The trick would be to set the meter to center weighted, if the > camera supports such a regressive feature. This is plain wrong. Evaluative meter is like any other meter; it tries to make everything medium toned. However, the notion that center weighed metering "solve" the problem or has a better "hit rate" is plain wrong. The fact that some people prefer center weighted metering because they know how it react to various scenes is fine. However, this has nothing to do with matrix metering failure but the photographer not having learned how matrix metering works. Pål - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Pentax - New Directions (now getting longer)
If you think Petersen's Photographic and Shutterbug are great authorities, that may be part of your problem. Did anyone see the MZ-S "test" in the May 2002 Shutterbug? It seemed as if the tester hadn't used an auto-exposure camera before. He says Tv stands for "time priority" (his quotes), and writes that the green button is for "quickly switching from programmed control to photographer control of the automatic exposure", rather than the other way around. He goes on to describe setting the aperture by changing the shutter speed, saying "you could call it aperture priority if you want to think of it as that". Funny, I thought that was shutter priority. He caps it by writing "A manually set aperture priority is also available.", and describes setting the aperture with the aperture ring on the lens. His understanding of the metering modes was pretty unusual, to put it politely. He also praises the all-mode DOF, saying "This is an improvement over the PZ1-P and ZX-5n, which allow a stop-down preview only in the aperture priority and manual modes". Don't they both allow DOF preview in all modes? Finally, why would you buy two expensive cameras and not spend the time and expense to shoot a roll of film and see what results the main metering system gives, rather than assuming it's worthless, based on some review. I carry an incident meter, and almost every single time, it agrees very closely with the MZ-S's evaluative reading. That's my experience, anyway. Pat White - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Pentax - New Directions (now getting longer)
> On Mon, 8 Jul 2002, Joseph Tainter wrote: > > The ZX-L is supposed to be a 5n replacement. > > No, this is not true. ZX-L is a replacement for ZX-7. > The proof is at Pentax Japan web site: MZ-7 has been discontinued and no > longer listed; whereas MZ-3 and MZ-5n are still in production. > Ah...well, this is potentially good news. Pentax may yet bring forth a capable medium-priced body to replace the 5n. I hope it will have a center-weighted option that is as easily accessible as it is now on the 1p, 5n, and MZ-S. Thanks, Lawrence. Joe - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
RE: Pentax - New Directions (now getting longer)
Message text written by INTERNET:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >I know that this has been gone through before butI am confused, so could someone please explain HOW to 'calibrate'. Also are you 'calibrating' the camera/film combo or can you 'calibrate'the camera seperate from the film? Alan< shot a roll of film of a scene starting from probably at least 2 stops over to 2 stops under. use your ISO dial for manual ISO setting so that you get 1/3 stop increments above and below the nominal for the film. do the original metering with a 18% gray card and use your camera in manual exposure mode set to correct exposure for the gray card. in the scene, include brights and darks well beyond what only 2 stops of compensation can cover. if you have the means, include in the scene a standardized color target. i own and use a GretagMacbeth ColorChecker for this purpose and to check color shifts and reciprocity failure. include in the scene also a small piece of paper with film and ISO rating you used for each shot. the "best" photo tells you the ISO speed you should use for that film in that camera body when exposure has been set. best is a combination of what you like and how closely the color reference looks like the original color target. i happen to like Provia 100F about 1/3 to 1/2 stop underexposed, just like i do for most other slide films. the ones shot dead on according to the exposure meter are a bit light for my tastes. it measures more accurately on the densitometer and colorimeter though. however, i don't complain about lousy metering. when something matters, i bracket and i always include half stop under in the bracketing. i have no problem with staying with evaluative metering most of the time and when i think it will be fooled, i bracket up to 2 stops in each direction in half stop increments, leaving it in evaluative mode. expecting to take only shot of every scene and getting a perfect shot is almost impossible, so i bracket. i use my exposure compensation dial instead of manually setting ISO because i find it more convenient. i habitually choose slight underexposure for slide film because i like it. i don't complani about the meter. Herb - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
RE: Pentax - New Directions
>The ZX-L does not offer center-weighted averaging. The ZX-L manual says that the camera *does* offer center-weighted metering on lenses other than A, F, and FA. - Paul - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
RE: Pentax - New Directions (now getting longer)
Agreed. Let me try to clarify what I am after. If I buy a camera and assume that I know the 'characteristics of a film (slide). Is there any quantative way of testing the camera so that I know if it over or under exposes? How do I know that a picture taken that for example appears over exposed is because the camera interpreted it incorrectly for my tastes. How do I minimise the effects of all the other things in the equation (colour temp, development etc). If I still worked in a lab I could put it on a jig and use known light sources etc (sad aren't I ;-). I know that a lot of this is subjective. Its more a case of finding out for example: camera A has a tendency to overexpose under these conditions and film B is not good at handling under exposure. How do you split out the characteristics of each part? What about the lens? Or is it a case of saying this combination (camera,lens,film) has a tendency to do this. Does this make any sense? Best regards Alan > > Calibration starts with you and your appraisal of the final > image. You make > the adjustments required to enable the camera and lens to > deliver what you > expect. That is the start. > To expect your camera, or any camera, to deliver the goods, > without your > envolvement, will lead you down a long lonely path. > > My honest opinion, but your mileage may vary. > > Bob > - > This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, > go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to > visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org . - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Pentax - New Directions (now getting longer)
- Original Message - From: "Alan Abbott" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > I know that this has been gone through before butI am confused, > so could someone please explain HOW to 'calibrate'. > Also are you 'calibrating' the camera/film combo > or can you 'calibrate'the camera seperate from the film? > Alan > Unfortunately, every scene is not equivalent to a "grey" card and the evaluative systems try to interpret what it thinks your are seeing. Some, like the new L have an auto-program mode that adjusts to what "it" thinks the scene is. Works great with color negative film with a -1 +3 latitude. Calibration starts with you and your appraisal of the final image. You make the adjustments required to enable the camera and lens to deliver what you expect. That is the start. The first SLR I had was one that I bought in the 60s, a Spotmatic. The sales person gave me a roll of Kodachrome and a mailer and told me to shoot the roll and take notes on how I came about the exposure setting. Then, he said, evaluate your slides and make the necessary adjustments in my metering methods. It worked then and it still works now. Shooting slide film and B&W are remarkably similar. The benefit of fine tuning your habits at all the levels of your involvement will, in the end, deliver the satisfaction you want. It takes practice. To expect your camera, or any camera, to deliver the goods, without your envolvement, will lead you down a long lonely path. My honest opinion, but your mileage may vary. Bob - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
RE: Pentax - New Directions (now getting longer)
Hi Alan, Can you explain in more detail? If I take a picture of a Kodak grey card in bright sunshine (say) and then compare the slide how do I know that I am not being fooled by the 'characteristics' of the film rather then exposure? I am sorry if this is obvious to you but it is not to me. I used to work on optical analytical equipment and perhaps I am thinking in to exact terms. With my cameras I just get to know the 'personality' of each and beat it around the head a bit until it does what I want ;-) I would like to be able to explain the procedure of 'calibrating' to my wife who is just getting into macro photography (MZ7 and either velvia or Kodak 100 extra colour). Do you know of any links to articles about this? Thanks Alan (almost like the Monty Python sketch "g'day Bruce, Hello Bruce.!) > -Original Message- > From: Alan Chan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 10:57 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: Pentax - New Directions (now getting longer) > > > >I know that this has been gone through before butI am confused, > >so could someone please explain HOW to 'calibrate'. > >Also are you 'calibrating' the camera/film combo > >or can you 'calibrate'the camera seperate from the film? > > The easiest way is to alter the ISO setting to your favour, > although I have > never done that. AFAIK, the metering is accurate if the > reading from the > Kodak grey card is correct. However, 1/3-1/2 EV difference is > quite common > among new and used cameras. > > regards, > Alan Chan > > > _ > Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > http://www.hotmail.com > - > This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, > go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to > visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org . - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
RE: Pentax - New Directions (now getting longer)
>I know that this has been gone through before butI am confused, >so could someone please explain HOW to 'calibrate'. >Also are you 'calibrating' the camera/film combo >or can you 'calibrate'the camera seperate from the film? The easiest way is to alter the ISO setting to your favour, although I have never done that. AFAIK, the metering is accurate if the reading from the Kodak grey card is correct. However, 1/3-1/2 EV difference is quite common among new and used cameras. regards, Alan Chan _ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
RE: Pentax - New Directions (now getting longer)
I know that this has been gone through before butI am confused, so could someone please explain HOW to 'calibrate'. Also are you 'calibrating' the camera/film combo or can you 'calibrate'the camera seperate from the film? Alan Herb said, > all of the advanced books on photography i have read lately > start their > hardware section on calibrating the light meters in your > camera body for > exposure accuracy and marking the difference on the body itself. each > individual body is different within a single model and > possibly batch. if > Velvia 50 needs to be rated at 64 to get proper exposures, > then that is > what you do, not complain about lousy exposure meters as Joe is doing. - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
RE: Pentax - New Directions (now getting longer)
> -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Alan Chan > > > >Right. I made it all up. So have the other Pentax users > who've posted on > >this matter from time to time. In fact I think that the > reviewers for > >Shutterbug and Petersen's made it up too. Got you going, didn't we? > > My impression got from Japanese magazines is that Nikon and > Minolta had the > best multi-segment metering, and Nikon had the best flash > metering, while > Canon the worst on both. Pentax is somewhere in between. > Now, this is not > official or scientific so don't flame me please. I don't have anything official either, but the MZ-S matrix metering is a major improvement over the ZX-5n and PZ-1p. I don't shoot slides, but print a lot of b+w proofs, and the MZ-S has saved me hours, maybe days, in the darkroom. tv - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Pentax - New Directions (now getting longer)
>Nikon and Minolta specifically. Not sure about Canon. >Who else has multi pattern metering? Rollei? regards, Alan Chan _ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Pentax - New Directions (now getting longer)
>Right. I made it all up. So have the other Pentax users who've posted on >this matter from time to time. In fact I think that the reviewers for >Shutterbug and Petersen's made it up too. Got you going, didn't we? My impression got from Japanese magazines is that Nikon and Minolta had the best multi-segment metering, and Nikon had the best flash metering, while Canon the worst on both. Pentax is somewhere in between. Now, this is not official or scientific so don't flame me please. regards, Alan Chan _ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Pentax - New Directions (now getting longer)
>Right. Most of us on this list could work around the problem. But I just >gave my old ZX-50 to my wife, who is not going to understand when I tell >her to adjust the ISO or the EV or use the exposure compensation button >(then remember to reset it afterwards). She just wants to point and >shoot, and occasionally needs slides. I know of others I work with who >are in the same situation. They need to shoot slides but don't want (or >need) to learn as much about photography as we know. I'd like to >recommend Pentax to them but am reluctant to, only because of this >problem. I could be old fashion but isn't it too much to ask for perfect exposed slides without learning about exposure at all? regards, Alan Chan _ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Pentax - New Directions (now getting longer)
- Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 7:49 PM Subject: Re: Pentax - New Directions (now getting longer) > In a message dated 7/8/2002 8:07:58 PM Central Daylight Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > > > I have heard of problems with just about everyone's evaluative > > metering systems having some flaws with slide film. They all > > seem to overexpose somewhat in many situations. > > > > Clarification, Mr Robb -- by "everyone" do you mean "all brands" or "all > Pentax users"? Nikon and Minolta specifically. Not sure about Canon. Who else has multi pattern metering? William Robb - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Pentax - New Directions (now getting longer)
In a message dated 7/8/2002 8:07:58 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > I have heard of problems with just about everyone's evaluative > metering systems having some flaws with slide film. They all > seem to overexpose somewhat in many situations. > Clarification, Mr Robb -- by "everyone" do you mean "all brands" or "all Pentax users"? ERNR My photographs hang on the virtual walls at http://members.aol.com/ernreed - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Pentax - New Directions (now getting longer)
- Original Message - From: Joseph Tainter Subject: Re: Pentax - New Directions (now getting longer) > > This is with all due respect nonsense. Pentax have one of the best matrix metering systems in the industry > > Right. I made it all up. So have the other Pentax users who've posted on > this matter from time to time. In fact I think that the reviewers for > Shutterbug and Petersen's made it up too. Got you going, didn't we? I have heard of problems with just about everyone's evaluative metering systems having some flaws with slide film. They all seem to overexpose somewhat in many situations. The trick would be to set the meter to center weighted, if the camera supports such a regressive feature. William Robb - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Pentax - New Directions (now getting longer)
- Original Message - From: Joseph Tainter Subject: Re: Pentax - New Directions (now getting longer) > > Right. Most of us on this list could work around the problem. But I just > gave my old ZX-50 to my wife, who is not going to understand when I tell > her to adjust the ISO or the EV or use the exposure compensation button > (then remember to reset it afterwards). You don't let her drive, I hope? William Robb - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Pentax - New Directions (now getting longer)
> This is with all due respect nonsense. Pentax have one of the best matrix metering >systems in the industry Right. I made it all up. So have the other Pentax users who've posted on this matter from time to time. In fact I think that the reviewers for Shutterbug and Petersen's made it up too. Got you going, didn't we? Joe - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Pentax - New Directions (now getting longer)
In light of the allegations that some folks have had trouble with slide film > being overexposed, I still wouldn't have a problem recommending Pentax to > someone who wants to shoot slides; but I would simply recommend that they try the >body they're using and see whether they'd need/want to change the ISO > rating for slide film to get the results that would suit them. Right. Most of us on this list could work around the problem. But I just gave my old ZX-50 to my wife, who is not going to understand when I tell her to adjust the ISO or the EV or use the exposure compensation button (then remember to reset it afterwards). She just wants to point and shoot, and occasionally needs slides. I know of others I work with who are in the same situation. They need to shoot slides but don't want (or need) to learn as much about photography as we know. I'd like to recommend Pentax to them but am reluctant to, only because of this problem. Joe - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Re: Pentax - New Directions (now getting longer)
Have you tried shooting with a 5n in bright light or are you just going on the common report that the lcd is hard to read in bright light. Scott, I tried a 5n at a dealer here in Albuquerque. I stepped outside with the camera and could not read the exposure information in the viewfinder except by contortions that would really require three hands for every shot. I've noticed the problem also on the ZX-50 and the PZ-1p. The MZ-S may be a bit more readable, but I haven't used it since January so don't recall precisely. Part of the problem may be that I wear glasses. But others have complained of this problem too. If the 5n works for you, that's great. I assume it's being discontinued, though. Joe - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Pentax - New Directions
What did the manual say? At any rate, you can just overate the film... Regards, Bob... From: "Joseph Tainter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > If the overexposure is constant, overrate the film, else have the metering > > adjusted. This can be done. > > > > Regards, > > Bob... > > > I sent the camera to Pentax, asking please adjust the meter for slide > film. I got back a canned, insulting message telling me to read the > manual. - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Pentax - New Directions (now getting longer)
Joseph wrote: > Part of the issue may be where one shoots. Nearly all of my shooting is > in bright sun, with a lot of contrast. Pentax's multi-segment metering > in these situations will apparently expose for dark areas, causing > lighter areas to overexpose on slide film. On color negative film this > is okay, so I suppose Pentax designs their metering program for such > films (which most users shoot anyway). If you shoot in conditions that > don't have a lot of contrast, you may not experience a problem. This is basically just a problem with the latitude of the film. Slide film cannot record high contreast scenes. For slide film you should usually expose for the highlights but the camera doesn't know that and tries to average the scene (like all meters - including center weighted). In some circumstances you have to overide any meter. > > There was a post here sometime ago from an owner of the MZ-S who said > that it does not seem to overexpose. I bought two MZ-S's for my office, > but won't trust the multi-segment metering for anything crucial. I took > them to Africa recently, but used center-weighted and got fine > exposures. > > I'm very frustrated that for those of us who shoot slide film, Pentax > offers only one model, quite expensive. I'm fine with my two PZ-1p > bodies, but have a problem recommending Pentax to anyone who wants to > shoot slides but doesn't wish to spend $900 for an MZ-S. This is with all due respect nonsense. Pentax have one of the best matrix metering systems in the industry; just look at what Andy Rouse says about his switch from the Canon EOS-1v to Pentax - no need to constantly override the matrix meter anymore. He fully rely on Pentax AF and matrix metering. The matrix metering of my 645n and MZ-S (and for that matter the Z-1p) is several magnitudes more "right" than center weighted metering. No meter is correct all the time but it is really boring to almost always figuring out that the matrix meter is right 95% or more of the time with Velvia. I always (when time allows) check the matrix reading with a spotmetering. Practically always, the matrix meter is within 1/3 of a stop; a difference that qualifies as "taste" in exposure. Pål - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Pentax - New Directions (now getting longer)
Message text written by INTERNET:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >In light of the allegations that some folks have had trouble with slide film being overexposed, I still wouldn't have a problem recommending Pentax to someone who wants to shoot slides; but I would simply recommend that they try the body they're using and see whether they'd need/want to change the ISO rating for slide film to get the results that would suit them. And that applies to any brand of camera.< all of the advanced books on photography i have read lately start their hardware section on calibrating the light meters in your camera body for exposure accuracy and marking the difference on the body itself. each individual body is different within a single model and possibly batch. if Velvia 50 needs to be rated at 64 to get proper exposures, then that is what you do, not complain about lousy exposure meters as Joe is doing. Herb... - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Pentax - New Directions (now getting longer)
An advantage of the low cost MZ-L, you can override the film speed setting. Lots of features in an "economy" body. Bob - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Now, if you couldn't change the film speed setting on the cameras, > that would be a problem, and I am against all cameras which don't allow > user-setting of film speeds. But on most if not all of the current Pentax > models, you can change it. > > ERNR > My photographs hang on the virtual walls at http://members.aol.com/ernreed - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Pentax - New Directions
For me, I have never rated slide film at the rating on the box. This goes back to the 60s and continues to the present. I have always rated the film 1/3 stop faster (32 instead of 25 etc). Metering habits also have a huge bearing on exposure. Very seldom do I use the indicated exposure given by any camera as the whole scene usually has little bearing on the principle area I am interested in. I did have a PZ1p at one time and must admit that it did a fair job. As I recall, that camera included extra film cartridge sensors to pick up more information about the film than just the speed. I am not sure if the newer models do the same. As it is, it is always a terrific idea when getting a new camera to run a roll of slide material through it and evaluate the results. The narrow latitude allows you to zero in your methods and the cameras response to the end exposure. Once done, it can be applied to both positive and negative colour film. B&W requires further adjustments outside the camera. FWIW, Bob - Original Message - From: "Bill Owens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > I remember that back in the early 1960s I was using a Yashica Lynx 14 that, > when set for my the favorite film, Agfachrome 64, consistently overexposed. > It was a simple matter to set the ASA on the camera to 100 and get results > that pleased me. This was with an averaging, non TTL CDS meter mounted on > the front of the camera next to the lens. Everyone's idea of the "proper" > exposure may not be the same, and it's much easier to manually adjust the > ISO than to go to the expense of calibrating the meter. This assumes of > course that the meter is linear. > > Bill KG4LOV > [EMAIL PROTECTED] - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Pentax - New Directions
On Mon, 8 Jul 2002, Bob Rapp wrote: > From: "Ayash Kanto Mukherjee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 2:11 PM > Subject: Re: Pentax - New Directions > > > > Hi Bob! > > > > Could you please let me know the price of L/6, both grey market and list > > prices? > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > With kind regards, > > Ayash. > > > > > The current price at B&H is 249.00 US. > > Bob Many Thanks, Bob. - Ayash. - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Pentax - New Directions
From: "Ayash Kanto Mukherjee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 2:11 PM Subject: Re: Pentax - New Directions > Hi Bob! > > Could you please let me know the price of L/6, both grey market and list > prices? > > Thanks in advance. > > With kind regards, > Ayash. > > The current price at B&H is 249.00 US. Bob - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Re: Pentax - New Directions
Hi Bob! Could you please let me know the price of L/6, both grey market and list prices? Thanks in advance. With kind regards, Ayash. On Mon, 8 Jul 2002, Bob Rapp wrote: > Hi Gang, > Over the weekend, I was doing some heavy duty pondering > (ponder,ponder...). The new L/6 is an very well specified camera with an > extremely low price. It's specifications exceed those within it price bracket > and match or exceed those of other costing much more. > Bob - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
Pentax - New Directions
Hi Gang, Over the weekend, I was doing some heavy duty pondering (ponder,ponder...). The new L/6 is an very well specified camera with an extremely low price. It's specifications exceed those within it price bracket and match or exceed those of other costing much more. I think Pentax has hit a different level when they introduced the MZ cameras a few years back. Virtually the same body, just different components and interfaces on the same platform. Want 1/2000, install that shutter / want 1/4000, install that shutter / want multi-programme, install that dial, top deck and cpu / want a glass prism, haven't yet - we can do. They have gotten very good mileage out of that line and can still get even more. The L/6 challenges the 3/5 in terms of specifications. Shy is some and better in others. I look for a "1" or "2" to replace the 3/5 and provide a more MZ/S specified camera to really challenge the middle/upper level. The lens assortment that is available (excepting the consumer grade) is actually excellent good. No, they don't have the tilt/shifts of C&N but their prime lens array is really second to none right now. Image stabilization needs to be in the works and, when coupled with their high standard in the long lenses, Pentax should be back on track. Enough pondering, Bob - This message is from the Pentax-Discuss Mail List. To unsubscribe, go to http://www.pdml.net and follow the directions. Don't forget to visit the Pentax Users' Gallery at http://pug.komkon.org .
