Re: Clip: The state of country radio
I see your point Jon, but I think you give Shania too much credit for her early career as some people slam her too much for singing cabaret-style "pop" tunes. Before Lange got involved, you have a woman who wanted a music career; was influenced equally by country and pop and who tinkered around writing songs. She sang whatever gave her a paycheck and the Nashville invite was just "luck". She says now that she fought to get things her own way - well, interesting point is that she really didn't have a style at that point. She pretty much sang as a pop songstress, wore ordinary and sometimes frumpy looking clothes and had that wedge cut of a hairdo. She got a job as a house singer for Crook & Chase. I think it was Wilson who did say that he looked over the songs she had written and didn't think much of them, adding that "they" didn't think they were good. Exit Norro Wilson, enter Lange. Her vocal style changes, her music changes, her "look" changes and she adopts male rock star stage mannerisms. She didn't do this all by herself. The songs which she did write were altered by Lange and we'll probably never know exactly who wrote what or was responsible for what as it's all part of the myth those two want us to "buy" into. Her future was thought-out beforehand and planned step-by-step. Absolutely brilliant "take" on the Eliza Doolittle story. While I'm on the subject - often I think that people look at her rock influence and cite her videos and some of her television appearances as a threat to country music and sometimes to women in general. Her videos express a more perfunctory sensuality than her actual stage presence. In concert, she is not the sassy little belly-button waving sex kitten or the freewheelin' liberated woman, but rather a happy cheerleader of country/pop who literally bounces about the stage, invites members of the audience to sing with her, including children and who often shows a video of herself strumming guitar and singing a country song at age 9 or 10. She tries very hard to entertain and she is quite likeable in a little sister sort of way. After seeing one of her concerts, my impression was that she was a "nice girl" who just wants to be liked. Her music and her "style" belies the fact that she is a 33 year old woman. I have concluded that she is an interesting phenomenon whose time will pass also as the bouncy cheerleader pose won't work much longer as she gets older. Actually, I'm a bit suprised it has worked thus far. Those videos obviously work to her advantage. Anyway, Jennings, Nelson, Glaser and Colter had a cause to support, were already in the business and knew exactly how they wanted to approach and stand up for their beliefs whereas Twain just wanted to be in the music business and sing with the likes of Elton John and Stevie Wonder. Tera -Original Message----- From: Jon Weisberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: passenger side <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Tuesday, March 16, 1999 1:36 PM Subject: RE: Clip: The state of country radio >> > Looking at the matter in terms of the country music industry and the way >> > that it works, Twain's career, at least through The Woman In Me, bears a >> > considerable resemblance to that of some of the 70s Outlaws - that is to >> > say, a struggle with "conservative" producers and label execs over her >> > desire to pursue a new sound that could appeal beyond the >> >"normal" country audience by bringing in pop/rock elements. >> > >> > Jon Weisberger Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> > http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger/ >> > >> > >> Jon, you keep making this point, but I'd argue that you're overstating the >> resemblance between Twain's career (and, by necessity, her music, since >> that's her career) and that of the 70s outlaws. > >Let's see. Artist A has essentially mediocre success using >producer-determined/arranged material, fights with his label in order to >record the stuff that *he* wants to, rather than what the label has stuck >him with in the past, wins fight, hits it big with crossover appeal. >Artist B has essentially mediocre success using producer-determined/arranged >material, fights with her label in order to record the stuff that *she* >wants to, rather than what the label has stuck her with in the past, wins >fight, hits it big with crossover appeal. > >Looks like a pretty close resemblance to me on a pretty important level. > >>As I said before, there's rock influences and then there's rock >>influences, and they're not all floating around on the same, precise >>relativist plain. > >So you say, but I think it
RE: Clip: The state of country radio
> But isn't the history of country music more or less the history of its > influences? And that being the case, doesn't that make the influences, > and genres within the influences, very valid -- even crucial -- factors in > assessing the music? It seems as if you're throwing all rock music into > the same bag. And rock is a lot more diverse than country. Well, yeah, I am, but I'm also throwing pop, blues, r&b and everything else into that same bag . No, really, as far as the history of country music goes, I think it would be more accurate to say that it's the history of how those influences were incorporated, not the history of the influences themselves. Plus which, the biggest influence, so to speak, is the past practice of country music itself. Or at least it used to be . Jon Weisberger Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger/
Re: Clip: The state of country radio
Jon quotes me here (and is kind of enough not to point out that I tangled up that last sentence and said the opposite of what I meant): > > > I think your comparative points are > > instructive, but of limited utility, when we're trying to gauge to what > > extent rock influences have eroded or heightened the quality of country > > music. It depends on the influence. Quality is subjective, but to deny the > > lack of differences in quality is lunacy. > Then he addresses that statement with this: > I'm sorry, but I just can't buy the unqualified line you're selling here. There are passionate arguments here all the time about the relative merits > of one rock group or another that I couldn't care less about, and if I > couldn't care less about their relative merits on their own terms, why would > I care about their relative merits as influences on country music? Between > you and me, I never liked a lot of But isn't the history of country music more or less the history of its influences? And that being the case, doesn't that make the influences, and genres within the influences, very valid -- even crucial -- factors in assessing the music? It seems as if you're throwing all rock music into the same bag. And rock is a lot more diverse than country. Jon says he didn't like a lot of "that Outlaw stuff much anyhow - a song > here, a song there, sure, but I never found it nearly as exciting or > interesting as some other, less rock-influenced (at least to my ear) stuff > that was coming out at the same time; the only Waylon Jennings album I ever > bought until that Essential comp came out was the cassette version of Waylon > Live, and that's because I really liked "Rainy Day Woman." So an argument > that hinges on the superiority of the Outlaw kind of rock-influenced music > over Twain's kind just doesn't go very far with me. As far as I'm > concerned, the differences in quality (or, better, enjoyment) have to do > with the less obviously rock-influenced aspects of their music. > I agree with regard to Waylon. I liked that tune, and Ralph Mooney's memorable steel solo, better than anything else Waylon did. I was bored by a lot of the pacing and oomph, pha, pha, type bass stuff, and was always wishing he'd do more material along the lines of Rainy Day Woman. But there was a lot of Outlaw and Austin stuff at that period with great merit, including Waylon, Willie, Doug Sahm, Kris K., Asleep at the Wheel, Rusty Weir, Alvin Crow and the Pleasant Valley Boys, etc. Now that I think of it, the stuff from that time that I enjoyed the most, however, was the material that borrowed heavily from the country side. Well, maybe I should be making this argument, using punk country as my example of good rock influences I'll let my tag-team partners take over for that. -- Terry Smith
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Terry says: > What I'm trying to say -- the relative merit > of the music (which is all a matter of taste) isn't addressed on any > levels in your comparisons about how each of these artists, or group of > artists, dealt with the "industry." If Shania was a duck quacking, and > she'd gone through some of those fights for freedom with the Nashville > establishment, that wouldn't say a damn thing about quacker's merit vis a > vis Waylon, Willy, Jerry Jeff, etc. Well, sure, but the relative merit of the music isn't the only, or even necessarily the most important point at issue here. Plus which, as you say, that's all a matter of taste . > I think your comparative points are > instructive, but of limited utility, when we're trying to gauge to what > extent rock influences have eroded or heightened the quality of country > music. It depends on the influence. Quality is subjective, but to deny the > lack of differences in quality is lunacy. I'm sorry, but I just can't buy the unqualified line you're selling here. There are passionate arguments here all the time about the relative merits of one rock group or another that I couldn't care less about, and if I couldn't care less about their relative merits on their own terms, why would I care about their relative merits as influences on country music? Between you and me, I never liked a lot of that Outlaw stuff much anyhow - a song here, a song there, sure, but I never found it nearly as exciting or interesting as some other, less rock-influenced (at least to my ear) stuff that was coming out at the same time; the only Waylon Jennings album I ever bought until that Essential comp came out was the cassette version of Waylon Live, and that's because I really liked "Rainy Day Woman." So an argument that hinges on the superiority of the Outlaw kind of rock-influenced music over Twain's kind just doesn't go very far with me. As far as I'm concerned, the differences in quality (or, better, enjoyment) have to do with the less obviously rock-influenced aspects of their music. Jon Weisberger Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger/
Re: Clip: The state of country radio
No, no, I know that, Mr.Junior. (I mean, really, with a name like "Junior", you'd have been drummed out of the Teddy-and-Walt Noble Frankfurters Clubhouse at the first meeting...) But I was somewhat, somehow serious that the management-and-creation-of-taste line, while valid, can turn into monolithic cultural conspiracy theory (a la Adorno) if not used with caution and parental warning stickers. PLEASE STEP AWAY FROM THE YELLOW LINE. Etc. (The above in reference to the statement from the plaintiff-turned-defendant, Philip aka "Junior" Barnard, aka "the twangy professor": >Like, dude , I would never look at pop culture from Adorno's >perspective, so I take this as facetiousness.) In other news, went to an Epitaph preview party for Tom Waits's new album The Mule Variations last night. Hard to hear over the beer-fuelled chatter (including mine) but sounded, in a word, extraordinary. Carl W.
Re: Clip: The state of country radio
Like, dude , I would never look at pop culture from Adorno's perspective, so I take this as facetiousness Maybe Debord, but not Adorno!! As I understood Todd, he was just referring to my remarks about the way the music industry manages and creates a taste for its own products. Outta here for today...(to take that chill pill ). --junior
Re: Clip: The state of country radio
Jr. goes: >Popular taste is not formed before industry dreck gets heard, >>it's formed *in and by* industry dreck. >> And then Todd goes: >When did T.W. Adorno sneak on to the list? And so I goes: Like, too long ago? Jr. is using a real overpure Frankfurt-school reading of popular culture? And if not superceded totally the likes of Adorno need to be modified (sez me) by more recent cultural thinking on response, interpretation and appropriation? Adorno was an utter snob? He would think every bit of the music we're talking about was dreck, including, say, George Jones? (Tho that seems fitting to Jr.'s mood today considering his later "romantic music isn't classical music" nitpickery? Like, take a chill pill?) Plus, y'know, I'd like to, kinda, stand up for myself as more pessimistic than Junior? Because while thinking that people are to some degree, like, sheep herded and counted in the pens of the purveyors of dreck, I also think people can wallow dreck all on their own? Which is why the purveyors got to be the big muscular purveyors in the first place? 'Cuz no one ever went broke underestimating the taste of the [fill in nation-state here] public? Along with the logic of late capitalism, I'll grant you? But, well, shit, remember even among the dreck there are pearls? Pearls of parody at least? Y'what I mean? like, Carl W?
Re: Clip: The state of country radio
Jon persists in comparing Shania Twain (who does have a brother named Mark, by the way) with the 70s Outlaws: > > Let's see. Artist A has essentially mediocre success using > producer-determined/arranged material, fights with his label in order to > record the stuff that *he* wants to, rather than what the label has stuck > him with in the past, wins fight, hits it big with crossover appeal. > Artist B has essentially mediocre success using producer-determined/arranged > material, fights with her label in order to record the stuff that *she* > wants to, rather than what the label has stuck her with in the past, wins > fight, hits it big with crossover appeal. > > Looks like a pretty close resemblance to me on a pretty important level. > A, Jeff Wall is channeling through my keyboard; I can't stop him: On an even more important level -- relative suckage -- Shania's got the 70s Outlaw Country artists beat all to hell. Naw, that was me, not Jeff. What I'm trying to say -- the relative merit of the music (which is all a matter of taste) isn't addressed on any levels in your comparisons about how each of these artists, or group of artists, dealt with the "industry." If Shania was a duck quacking, and she'd gone through some of those fights for freedom with the Nashville establishment, that wouldn't say a damn thing about quacker's merit vis a vis Waylon, Willy, Jerry Jeff, etc. I think your comparative points are instructive, but of limited utility, when we're trying to gauge to what extent rock influences have eroded or heightened the quality of country music. It depends on the influence. Quality is subjective, but to deny the lack of differences in quality is lunacy. -- Terry Smith
Re: Clip: The state of country radio
I love this. Only on P2 does a discussion of the state of country radio devolve into questions about the differential effects of radically diverse sax players like Brubeck, Kenny G, Sun Ra, or Coltrane on a non-informed rock audience. Not to mention this business about Wagner --junior
RE: Clip: The state of country radio
> > People!! Wagner and Debussy are yucky *romantic* music. They are > > NOT *classical* music. All European music isn't the same. Don't > > mix great composers like Mozart and Cimarosa in with trash like > > Wagner, sheesh What would you think if somebody > > characterized Buck as Bluegrass?!?!? > > Damned purists. Told ya I was a casual listener at best! Well, now, if I were you, Carl, I'd tell Junior that we're using "classical" here the same way we're using "jazz" and "rock" . Jon Weisberger Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger/
Re: Clip: The state of country radio
Excerpts from internet.listserv.postcard2: 16-Mar-99 RE: Clip: The state of coun.. by "Ph. Barnard"@eagle.cc.u > People!! Wagner and Debussy are yucky *romantic* music. They are > NOT *classical* music. All European music isn't the same. Don't > mix great composers like Mozart and Cimarosa in with trash like > Wagner, sheesh What would you think if somebody > characterized Buck as Bluegrass?!?!? Damned purists. Told ya I was a casual listener at best! Though what I know of Debussy I like... Carl Z.
Re: Clip: The state of country radio
Excerpts from internet.listserv.postcard2: 16-Mar-99 RE: Clip: The state of coun.. by "Jon Weisberger"@fuse.ne > But consider that, as best I can tell, anyhow, one > of the raps on Kenny G is that his work is influenced by the wrong kinds of > rock and pop, so a certain degree of circularity starts to creep into the > discussion. True, but you could substitute Chuck Mangione or Russ Freeman or even Dave Brubeck for Kenny G and wind up with jazz with far different sensibilities than much of Rollins or Sun Ra or Coltrane, and (to continue using fans of rock music) a lite-rock fan would be a lot more likely to prefer the former, while a heavy-rock fan might tend toward the latter, regardless of their knowledge of or affinity to jazz. Carl Z.
RE: Clip: The state of country radio
So: > > Perhaps. I'd rather hear Debussy than Wagner in my rock. The latter > > leads to things like Meat Loaf. > > Hmm, Carl, does this mean you're not interested in classical music? > Besides, the former leads to things like BS&T. People!! Wagner and Debussy are yucky *romantic* music. They are NOT *classical* music. All European music isn't the same. Don't mix great composers like Mozart and Cimarosa in with trash like Wagner, sheesh What would you think if somebody characterized Buck as Bluegrass?!?!? Boy o boy, whatta list, --junior
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Carl says: > Would a discussion of the merits of Kenny G's and Sonny Rollins's > influence on rock by non-jazz fans be fair? I'll bet there's a lurker > or two who's not big on jazz but digs the Stones' "Waiting For a Friend" > & runs screaming from Michael Bolton's work Fair, sure, why not? But consider that, as best I can tell, anyhow, one of the raps on Kenny G is that his work is influenced by the wrong kinds of rock and pop, so a certain degree of circularity starts to creep into the discussion. Jon Weisberger Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger/
Re: Clip: The state of country radio
Excerpts from internet.listserv.postcard2: 16-Mar-99 RE: Clip: The state of coun.. by "Jon Weisberger"@fuse.ne > Hmm, Carl, does this mean you're not interested in classical music? Relative to several other types of music, that would be a fair statement. I'm a casual listener at best. Excerpts from internet.listserv.postcard2: 16-Mar-99 RE: Clip: The state of coun.. by "Jon Weisberger"@fuse.ne > Besides, the former leads to things like BS&T. Ew. You have a point, though I'd take at least pre-David Clayton Thomas BS&T over Meat Loaf or Styx, or any number of arena-rock bands that took cues from Wagner any day of the week. There are traces of Debussy in some of Richard Thompson's work, btw. Would a discussion of the merits of Kenny G's and Sonny Rollins's influence on rock by non-jazz fans be fair? I'll bet there's a lurker or two who's not big on jazz but digs the Stones' "Waiting For a Friend" & runs screaming from Michael Bolton's work Carl Z.
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>> >>Often in these P2 discussions of radio, I'm surprised at the notion >>that people could actually make a change in it. I'm much more of the >>opinion that the music industry *manufactures* mass taste and the >>need for its products. Very pessimistic on that point. I know it's >>not a simple equation, but the music and radio companies have all the >>cards. Popular taste is not formed before industry dreck gets heard, >>it's formed *in and by* industry dreck. >> When did T.W. Adorno sneak on to the list? Anyway, right on Junior. Unfortunately, it's hard not to be pessimistic in this cultural climate, and to wonder whether anything meaningful can even get through to people when their tastes, as you suggest, are so thoroughly mediated by commercial interests and industry drecksometimes I wonder whether all you can hope for as a musician is to try to give people a few moments of pleasure and count your blessings if you're able to achieve at least that, however illusory it might be (as opposed to actually believing that you can encourage real "change" of any kind). Todd
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> > So you say, but I think it depends a lot on your degree of > interest in rock. > > If you're not interested in classical music, and you think that > > incorporating classical music influences into rock makes the result less > > enjoyable, are you really going to care whether it's > Beethoven's influence > > or Holst's? Are you going to find a Beethoven-influenced rock > song better > > than a Holst-influenced one? > > Perhaps. I'd rather hear Debussy than Wagner in my rock. The latter > leads to things like Meat Loaf. Hmm, Carl, does this mean you're not interested in classical music? Besides, the former leads to things like BS&T. Jon Weisberger Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger/
Re: Clip: The state of country radio
Excerpts from internet.listserv.postcard2: 16-Mar-99 RE: Clip: The state of cou.. by "Jon Weisberger"@fuse.ne > So you say, but I think it depends a lot on your degree of interest in rock. > If you're not interested in classical music, and you think that > incorporating classical music influences into rock makes the result less > enjoyable, are you really going to care whether it's Beethoven's influence > or Holst's? Are you going to find a Beethoven-influenced rock song better > than a Holst-influenced one? Perhaps. I'd rather hear Debussy than Wagner in my rock. The latter leads to things like Meat Loaf. Carl Z.
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> > Looking at the matter in terms of the country music industry and the way > > that it works, Twain's career, at least through The Woman In Me, bears a > > considerable resemblance to that of some of the 70s Outlaws - that is to > > say, a struggle with "conservative" producers and label execs over her > > desire to pursue a new sound that could appeal beyond the > >"normal" country audience by bringing in pop/rock elements. > > > > Jon Weisberger Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger/ > > > > > Jon, you keep making this point, but I'd argue that you're overstating the > resemblance between Twain's career (and, by necessity, her music, since > that's her career) and that of the 70s outlaws. Let's see. Artist A has essentially mediocre success using producer-determined/arranged material, fights with his label in order to record the stuff that *he* wants to, rather than what the label has stuck him with in the past, wins fight, hits it big with crossover appeal. Artist B has essentially mediocre success using producer-determined/arranged material, fights with her label in order to record the stuff that *she* wants to, rather than what the label has stuck her with in the past, wins fight, hits it big with crossover appeal. Looks like a pretty close resemblance to me on a pretty important level. >As I said before, there's rock influences and then there's rock >influences, and they're not all floating around on the same, precise >relativist plain. So you say, but I think it depends a lot on your degree of interest in rock. If you're not interested in classical music, and you think that incorporating classical music influences into rock makes the result less enjoyable, are you really going to care whether it's Beethoven's influence or Holst's? Are you going to find a Beethoven-influenced rock song better than a Holst-influenced one? Jon Weisberger Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger/
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> > Looking at the matter in terms of the country music industry and the way > that it works, Twain's career, at least through The Woman In Me, bears a > considerable resemblance to that of some of the 70s Outlaws - that is to > say, a struggle with "conservative" producers and label execs over her > desire to pursue a new sound that could appeal beyond the "normal" country > audience by bringing in pop/rock elements. > > Jon Weisberger Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger/ > > Jon, you keep making this point, but I'd argue that you're overstating the resemblance between Twain's career (and, by necessity, her music, since that's her career) and that of the 70s outlaws. They actually could write songs, or had the good judgment to pick songs, with some staying power and grit. I'm not a soothsayer, so I can't say this for sure, but I'll bet my bottom dollar that the tunes of Kris Kristofferson and Outlaw era Willie will be around when Shania's been long forgotten. As I said before, there's rock influences and then there's rock influences, and they're not all floating around on the same, precise relativist plain. -- Terry Smith
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Carl sez: > (thanks greatly to my stay in the P2 reeducation > camps) Heh, you know Carl, here in Kansas we have big old mothballed govt installations that were used as POW camps for German prisoners during WWII. Maybe they could be put to some real twang-Maoist use in reeducating HNC fans!! . Or maybe, in a more Kubrick-inspired move, we could use some of our mothballed underground ICBM sites to target Nashville?? Where's Slim Pickens when we need him!!! But seriously > It's a bit distressing to face the idea that a lot of the debate about > the future of country is actually a debate about rock, but it also > makes evident sense - esp. given the fact that none of the > back-to-roots moves of the past quarter-century seem to get enduring > support from the core country audience or any other sizeable swathe of > the population. Yep. It's a different world out there now, and in some ways the debate about traditional styles and their relation to the commercial constraints of the music industry (pop, rock, dance-music dominated) could use a more sophisticated way of thinking that relationship. Obviously, simple authenticity arguments aren't gonna get it. But subgenres and "traditional" styles obviously have crucial roles to play in giving voice to subcultures and elements that don't fit into corporate music profit plans, etc. They're still extremely meaningful on many levels for a lot of folks, but always at odds with the media / information culture that they need to exist at present. Often in these P2 discussions of radio, I'm surprised at the notion that people could actually make a change in it. I'm much more of the opinion that the music industry *manufactures* mass taste and the need for its products. Very pessimistic on that point. I know it's not a simple equation, but the music and radio companies have all the cards. Popular taste is not formed before industry dreck gets heard, it's formed *in and by* industry dreck. So that for most folks, it's only through more mainstream stuff that they get back to what hipsters would consider more quality roots (i.e. getting "back" to Cash or Monroe via Steve Earle, or "back" to blues via Stevie Vaughn, or whatever...). Tradition and roots without nostalgia sounds a bit contradictory, but sometimes I think that's where we've gotten to --junior
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Amy H: >the balance seems to be shifting, on country > radio and on CMT, back toward a preponderance of music that we may or may > not like, but that we can all agree, I think, is indisputably what we think > of as country music, unlike some of the more pop-oriented HNC stuff. That's > why Junior and other folks, me among them, are finding it so much easier to > listen to mainstream country radio lately. > In Toronto and I think several other markets (tho I can't recall where else I've read about) this is also, unfortunately, linked to the conversion of country stations into modern-rock stations. As the HNC bubble has evaporated (it hasn't quite burst), audiences that listened to these stations in lukewarm-to-country areas don't seem to like the shift, they leave and are not replaced, and new-country programmers are as apt to switch as to fight. Carl W.
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I'll use up my me-too of the week on Terry's bit about rock influences on country. I spoke to this after seeing the Old 97s last month, concluding that the way out of the double-bind that has oft consumed P2 discussion on "real country music" is to realize that except for the few hardcore trad types (a few of whom are classed as independent big-tent-alt-country, a few of whom are recording in Nashville), there's very little country around now that is not heavily marked by rock, the dominant American music of the past 40 years. I'm highly skeptical (thanks greatly to my stay in the P2 reeducation camps) about any assertion that the Old 97s, for instance (much less the Wacos), are more faithful to country than Garth Brooks is, even before their recently debated detwangification. But I'm equally confident that the Clash/Replacements/Beatles influences in the Old 97s sound are more vital and aesthetically acute han the Journey/Billy Joel/Eagles satanic trilogy that influences much New Country. No contest. It's a bit distressing to face the idea that a lot of the debate about the future of country is actually a debate about rock, but it also makes evident sense - esp. given the fact that none of the back-to-roots moves of the past quarter-century seem to get enduring support from the core country audience or any other sizeable swathe of the population. Carl W.
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I was at my in-laws, lying on the couch, watching lots of satellite tv. Lots of VH1 music specials. I didn't see all of Shania's, tuned out before the "fake Native American backround" scandal. I admit I was curious. And she is good looking, no denying that. But then I also watched the Grand Funk one. So yeh, I'm shameless. M > -Original Message- > From: Jon Weisberger [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 1999 10:26 AM > To: passenger side > Subject: RE: Clip: The state of country radio > > > [Matt Benz] Shania sez in the VH1 special... > > Hmm, first Derek, now Matt confesses to having tuned in. I think it's > pretty clear just who the real Shania fans are here. > > Jon Weisberger Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger/
RE: Clip: The state of country radio
> [Matt Benz] Shania sez in the VH1 special... Hmm, first Derek, now Matt confesses to having tuned in. I think it's pretty clear just who the real Shania fans are here. Jon Weisberger Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger/
RE: Clip: The state of country radio
[Matt Benz] Shania sez in the VH1 special that she sang whatever was in demand: she sang in rock bands, top 40 cover bands, country bands. She was a typical lounge-type performer: simply doing whatever styles were wanted at the time. As far as I can tell, she was not pre-disposed to country music, which is clear from her pop thrusts lately. She just wanted to succeed in a musical career. Which is fine. She did have at least one good country song, I think, based on that special: a clip from an early video (her playing guitar in a rustic porch setting) was kinda good.
RE: Clip: The state of country radio
From: Jon Weisberger >More to the point, though, the CMF's new Encyclopedia of Country >Music says that 1) she came to Nashville with a tape and hooked up with >Shedd there, Well shame on me then for watching and believing what I see on VH1, but according to their report, she was singing away doing her lounge act while Mr Shedd just happened to be in the audience. As reported by Mr. Shedd in the segment, he approached Shania and asked her to please come back to Nashville with him. >2) "by her teens she was a veteran of Canadian country TV >shows," which suggests that her background wasn't solely pop. I never meant to suggest that her background was "solely" pop (which I know it kinda came off sounding like), but according to Terry's post (which got me started), he was dissapointed in Shania for her desertion of "real country." I just don't see it that way. It's not as if she had some long struggle as an unknown country artist, then only to make it to the top and totally do a 180, thus leaving her throngs of long devoted country fans in the dust. Now if Terry was simply saying that he liked Shania better as a "real country" performer, than the pop diva she's now becoming, then I can understand that. Derek
RE: Clip: The state of country radio
Terry says: > As for rock influences on country, Jon's made this point before, and it's > well documented, but I'd argue that there's rock influences and then > there's rock influences. The sort of rock influences that's "corrupting" > commercial country music these days is, for the most part, banal, > done-a-million-times bar-band type junk that was cliched when the > Doobies were hacking away at it in the Seventies. Take Shania [and] Garth > Brooks. Viewed from a rock perspective, these folks are > living and breathing cliches. Could be, but I'll bet there are plenty of rock fans who would disagree from their rock perspectives, eh? I mean, about what qualifies as rock junk and what doesn't. Not that those are arguments I'm especially invested in . In any event, I don't know that the idea of "cliche" has the same content across different musical styles or listeners' backgrounds. A huge number of country shuffles start off with the same two-note fiddle pickup, and a huge number of mid- and up-tempo bluegrass tunes start with the same 3-note banjo pickup. Are those cliches? By most stabs at an objective definition of the term, I'd guess so, but I, at least, not only don't get tired of and bored with them, I'm usually disappointed if they're not there. Maybe this kind of stuff is only cliched if you don't like it . I don't know a lot about rock/pop, but even I can recognize that the passage in, say, "Bye Bye Baby" that follows the bridge, where Messina is singing the first part of the chorus over a stripped-down backing that comes crashing back in for the second part of the chorus is a technique that's been used in a gazillion pop/rock songs; even so, it doesn't bother me. To my ears, it works, it sounds good, it fits the song (in a pop/rock kind of way ), and so the question of whether it's a cliche or not is just plain irrelevant. YMMV, etc., but I wonder if it can't be said that, at least in one sense, country listeners have a higher tolerance in general for recycling musical material (not meaning songs, but licks, riffs, arrangements, etc.). Jon Weisberger Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger/
RE: Clip: The state of country radio
From: Mike Hays >Not aware of what her lounge singing consisted of in Canada, but before she >met Mutt she did a pretty decent straight ahead country CD which if I >remember correctly, received critical acclaim but little commercial >acceptance as it came out just as the POP boom in country was exploding. Yes, but was this the pre-Mutt Lange Shania, or post? If it was pre, then she was only allowed to contribute one or maybe two songs of her own. Her lounge singing BTW, consisted of Gloria Gainer etc. type songs. Derek
RE: Clip: The state of country radio
> Correct me if I'm wrong here (and I've been meaning to bring this up about > Shania), but since when was Shania ever really "Country." From what I've > read about her, she was singing pop songs in a Vegas format in > some vacation lodges in Canada. It just so happens that the one person > that "discovered" her was from Nashville. Her musical background before > that time was pretty much "Pop" bands playing in Ontario. As Mike Hays pointed out, Twain's first album, produced by Norro Wilson and Harold Shedd (he's the guy who signed her), was pretty much straightahead country. More to the point, though, the CMF's new Encyclopedia of Country Music says that 1) she came to Nashville with a tape and hooked up with Shedd there, and 2) "by her teens she was a veteran of Canadian country TV shows," which suggests that her background wasn't solely pop. Looking at the matter in terms of the country music industry and the way that it works, Twain's career, at least through The Woman In Me, bears a considerable resemblance to that of some of the 70s Outlaws - that is to say, a struggle with "conservative" producers and label execs over her desire to pursue a new sound that could appeal beyond the "normal" country audience by bringing in pop/rock elements. Jon Weisberger Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger/
Re: Clip: The state of country radio
>This is pretty evident by the fact that instead of folding to the whims of >Nashville and becoming another music publisher's puppet, she fond Mutt Lange >(or should I say he found her), who in return allowed her to do things her >own way. Not aware of what her lounge singing consisted of in Canada, but before she met Mutt she did a pretty decent straight ahead country CD which if I remember correctly, received critical acclaim but little commercial acceptance as it came out just as the POP boom in country was exploding. Mike Hays http://www.TwangCast.com TM RealCountry 24 X 7 Please Visit Then let us know what you think! Mike Hays www.MikeHays.RealCountry.net For the best country artist web hosting, www.RealCountry.net
Re: Clip: The state of country radio
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: passenger side <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Monday, March 15, 1999 10:33 PM Subject: Re: Clip: The state of country radio >In a message dated 3/15/99 9:40:41 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] >writes: > ><< Just happened to be station-surfing Sunday morning on the way back from the > gig in Knoxville and came across Elton John's "Hold Me Closer, Tiny Dancer" > rock/pop operretta -- it features, in addition to overblown strings and an > overall baroque-rock arrangement, a pedal steel! I seemed to have forgotten > about EJ using steel in a lot of his 70's stuff. >> > >"Tumbleweed Connection" was an amazing album. I still listen to it every once >in a while. Was it alt. country? > >Slim Maybe alt.country/pop given some of the embellishment in arrangement . Some beautiful stuff on that album. I also play it every now and then, btw. "Come Down In Time" with the moody oboe and harp backing is still one of my favorite ballads. I've read that John was very enamoured of the American Old West when he was a kid. He enjoyed reading cowboy and indian epics and always dreamed of visiting. It was said he was further inspired to write the songs on TC due to his promo trip to the states for "Your Song". Encouraged by that lp, I also bought "Madman Across The Water" with that "Tiny Dancer" song some have mentioned here. Not a bad album, but definitely lost interest in John, except for a few random singles every now and then heard on the radio. Perhaps if he had taken the concept of Tumbleweed Connection further... Tera >
Re: Clip: The state of country radio
> > > Using up my "me too" quotient for the month, I'll say that I think Jon has > this exactly right. The line- dancing-for-yuppies era is pretty well dead > and buried, the suburbanites who embraced HNC in the late 1980s and early > 1990s have moved on, as Jon notes, to whatever--Hootie or Lilith Fair or > God knows what--and pop acts like Shania Twain and, er, Shania Twain have > begun to give up any vague association with country music. That's the most > convincing explanation for why the balance seems to be shifting, on country > radio and on CMT, back toward a preponderance of music that we may or may > not like, but that we can all agree, I think, is indisputably what we think > of as country music, unlike some of the more pop-oriented HNC stuff. That's > why Junior and other folks, me among them, are finding it so much easier to > listen to mainstream country radio lately. > > --Amy > I'm still not sure "the balance is shifting." Believe me, listening to country music radio these days is 50 percent luck. And it has been for years. If you tune in one day, you just might hit on Gill's shuffle duet that's getting play, and then maybe Sara Evans or Dwight. But you're just as likely to pick a day when three or four nice-sounding lounge singers with cowboy hats begin sappy ballad time. You're more likely to hear it, unless you're lucky enough to strike paydirt and find a station that's pickier, or grants the freedom to be pickier. Like Mike's. The thing is, I've been tuning in to this stuff for a long time, and the minutes when there's actually something interesting getting play haven't increased, at least from what I can notice. Of course, there's always the possibility that the ornery cuss who owns our local country station is deliberately sabotaging the playlist just to piss me off. - Terry Smith
Re: Clip: The state of country radio
In a message dated 3/15/99 9:40:41 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << Just happened to be station-surfing Sunday morning on the way back from the gig in Knoxville and came across Elton John's "Hold Me Closer, Tiny Dancer" rock/pop operretta -- it features, in addition to overblown strings and an overall baroque-rock arrangement, a pedal steel! I seemed to have forgotten about EJ using steel in a lot of his 70's stuff. >> "Tumbleweed Connection" was an amazing album. I still listen to it every once in a while. Was it alt. country? Slim
RE: Clip: The state of country radio
> >I frankly think that what's happening is that the novelty factor is wearing >off for a lot of the newer country listeners, and they're off to look for >the Next Big Thing without much concern for whether it's labeled rock or pop >or something else again. I haven't seen even a whisper of a desire for >twangier, more hardcore country stuff in the coverage of the CRS that's been >posted here - and in fact, the positive references to "outlaws" merely >underlines the point, as the musical content of The Outlaws boom of the 70s >consisted in large part of "breaking the rules" and "taking risks" by >bringing more rock influences into the country mainstream. > >The best thing that can happen to country music right now is for the >audience to shrink. > Using up my "me too" quotient for the month, I'll say that I think Jon has this exactly right. The line- dancing-for-yuppies era is pretty well dead and buried, the suburbanites who embraced HNC in the late 1980s and early 1990s have moved on, as Jon notes, to whatever--Hootie or Lilith Fair or God knows what--and pop acts like Shania Twain and, er, Shania Twain have begun to give up any vague association with country music. That's the most convincing explanation for why the balance seems to be shifting, on country radio and on CMT, back toward a preponderance of music that we may or may not like, but that we can all agree, I think, is indisputably what we think of as country music, unlike some of the more pop-oriented HNC stuff. That's why Junior and other folks, me among them, are finding it so much easier to listen to mainstream country radio lately. --Amy
Re: Clip: The state of country radio
Just as most of the things I "contribute," this digressions is merely tangentially related to the subject listed above. Just happened to be station-surfing Sunday morning on the way back from the gig in Knoxville and came across Elton John's "Hold Me Closer, Tiny Dancer" rock/pop operretta -- it features, in addition to overblown strings and an overall baroque-rock arrangement, a pedal steel! I seemed to have forgotten about EJ using steel in a lot of his 70's stuff. And didn't EJ appear with Shania at that televised show in Florida (where, as Jon Stewart pointed out on the daily show, fireworks shot out of her, uh "twain') ...? So, hey, Shania's as country as Elton John ... so what's all the ruckus about? I feel it is my band's mission to heed the call of Merle and Bill A. and revitalize country music/country radio. We will provide the CD (and I'm sure most P2 related bands would contribute): all the good people of P2 need is a billion watt station on the Mexican border where we can blast the sounds of our own musical preferences into the airwaves ... so that everyone REALLY has a choice! On a somewhat related topic, have you noticed that if you really FORCE yourself to listen to a lot of country radio or CMT, you begin -- if not liking -- actually humming along with "Man, I Feel Like a Woman" (hey, didn't Pete Townsend write that one already?). Just proves that if you listen to anything long enough, you come to accept it and **eeek!** maybe even like it (does this explain my adolescent addiction to classic rock ... guess so!). Shane -- thanks for playing us on the Fringe and TN Saturday night! I had a killer migraine Saturday and was barely conscious during most of the show we did at the T'head ... sorry we didn't make it out to ya, but we'll definitely be planning another visit for the summer! Nighty-night P2ers. Rob (who's temperature is hovering around 101) Np Vic Chestnutt's "Little Vacation" in the back of my brain ... can't get it out of my head! ___ Rob Russell Johnson City, TN [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://listen.to/thebystanders >
Re: Clip: The state of country radio
From: Terry A. Smith >Coming from the country side, >the main reason to have a problem with Shania (and her increasing progeny) >is her desertion of "real country," and as Jon and others have so well >argued, the notion of pure or real country music isn't unlike a >toddler's idea of Camelot. Correct me if I'm wrong here (and I've been meaning to bring this up about Shania), but since when was Shania ever really "Country." From what I've read about her, she was singing pop songs in a Vegas format in some vacation lodges in Canada. It just so happens that the one person that "discovered" her was from Nashville. Her musical background before that time was pretty much "Pop" bands playing in Ontario. It seems to me that Shania had a dream of one day making it big in the music industry, and when she got her chance, she took it. Had it been some guy from LA vacationing in Canada who asked her to come back with him so that she could be Sony's new star recording artist, we would be listening to her as the latest Pop Diva, and all these questions about her allegiance to "Real Country" music would be completely irrelevant. This is pretty evident by the fact that instead of folding to the whims of Nashville and becoming another music publisher's puppet, she fond Mutt Lange (or should I say he found her), who in return allowed her to do things her own way. It is simply guilt by association that it was someone from Nashville that opened the doors for her to do what she has always wanted to do from the start. If you're going to blame anyone, blame Nashville for still holding onto her. Derek ducking and hiding
Re: Clip: The state of country radio
> or something else again. I haven't seen even a whisper of a desire for > twangier, more hardcore country stuff in the coverage of the CRS that's been > posted here - and in fact, the positive references to "outlaws" merely > underlines the point, as the musical content of The Outlaws boom of the 70s > consisted in large part of "breaking the rules" and "taking risks" by > bringing more rock influences into the country mainstream. > Jon's probably correct when he expresses doubts that there's some great untapped audience out here for hardcore country stuff. Maybe if John Travolta makes a movie with a Pentium-powered electronic bull, in a Texas dance hall, while occasionally battering a younger version of Debra Winger, that'll spark some renewed interest in hard country, but I wouldn't hold your breath. (Wait a minute, "Urban Cowboy" sparked an interest in soft country. Oh well.) As for rock influences on country, Jon's made this point before, and it's well documented, but I'd argue that there's rock influences and then there's rock influences. The sort of rock influences that's "corrupting" commercial country music these days is, for the most part, banal, done-a-million-times bar-band type junk that was cliched when the Doobies were hacking away at it in the Seventies. Take Shania. The other day I was reacting as I usually do when I see or hear her, gagging, and then it came to me. I don't have a problem with her because of what she's doing to country music; the problem involves what she's doing to rock. The same applies to Garth Brooks. Viewed from a rock perspective, these folks are living and breathing cliches. And they're popular as hell. So, my point? It's easier for me to explain why this stuff turns me off, if I do it from the perspective of a rock fan. Coming from the country side, the main reason to have a problem with Shania (and her increasing progeny) is her desertion of "real country," and as Jon and others have so well argued, the notion of pure or real country music isn't unlike a toddler's idea of Camelot. Also, I know that Jon's rhetorical chops, with regard to rock, aren't nearly as sharp as they are with country. -- Terry Smith np a review copy of Steve Wynn's new one. I'll report back.
Re: Clip: The state of country radio (LONG)
> Well, well, wellmaybe if they started playing folks like Dale Watson, The > Derailers, Duane Jarvis, Joe Ely, Jimmie Dale Gilmore, Rosie Flores, Kelly > Willis, Jann Browne, Heather Myles, Mike Ireland, Lucinda, Lauderdale, Cisco, > The Hollisters, Buddy Miller and Steve Earle they'd get those listeners back. Worked well enough for me for a number of years and although I am now employed by a station billed as HNC, the GM is letting, actually encouraging me to explore a bit. After 6 weeks I am happy to report good feedback from listeners on the inclusion of Honky Tonk Confidential (Hey Geff, put up a big antenna and you can tune me in), the current single releases from Kelly and Allison as well as plenty of Dale, some Derailers, Jr Brown, Heather (lots of reaction) and so onincluding healthy doses of the classics from Hag, Possum Buck and the rest This is the second station I've done this and the listeners generally tend to love it or hate it. Fortunately, in my listening area, the primary country audience is made up of lifelong fans and folks who grew up on country so very few complaints. These same fans like some of the Nashvegas stuff (and not just the usual trad suspects) including Tim McGraw and some of the more pop oriented too but the complaint is, as has been pointed out in countless listener surveys, the lack of variety, the sameness, the repitition / burn out and the tendency for the jocks to want to be comedians or talk about stuff totally unrelated to the country lifestyle. Radio consolidation will make things worse, not better. Do yourself a favor and spend some time studying the low power FM proposals at www.fcc.org then write a letter of support to the FCC and then to your congressmen. The big money groups have the Nat. Assoc of Broadcasters fighting tooth and nail against this but combine low power FM (10-1000 watts) and the net and radio as an industry sees billions going up in smoke. Will Nashvegas wake up and smell the coffee? Your guess is as good as mine, but after reading the article I would tend to think they'll go towards the slick teenybopper target market instead of the tried and true. There are however a few players in Nashville who are betting on a different playbook and my hope is they will stick it out long enough to make it to the next phase of country music, i.e. a return to roots oriented material/artists. The usual complaint is that the over 30's don't buy CD's. A recent report from a major university showed the 16-24 age group so into MP3 technology that they are going away from buying CD's. I'm 43 and my contemporaries buy lots of CD's, just not the new top 40 Nashvegas product. Anyone know how many units the OLD DOGS CD's have moved? Mike Hays http://www.TwangCast.com TM RealCountry 24 X 7 Please Visit Then let us know what you think! Mike Hays www.MikeHays.RealCountry.net For the best country artist web hosting, www.RealCountry.net
Re: Clip: The state of country radio
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > Well, well, wellmaybe if they started playing folks like Dale > > Watson, The > > Derailers, Duane Jarvis, Joe Ely, Jimmie Dale Gilmore, Rosie Flores, Kelly > > Willis, Jann Browne, Heather Myles, Mike Ireland, Lucinda, > > Lauderdale, Cisco, > > The Hollisters, Buddy Miller and Steve Earle they'd get those > > listeners back. > > > > .just a thought! > > > And a nice one, too, but also a questionable one. These folks are already > on the air in many major markets, and they have albums out, too, yet they > don't, with the occasional exception, seem to be drawing listeners and > buyers in the kind of numbers that mainstream country radio is looking for, = Jon, I don't have the numbers, however, these ears just don't hear the heavy rotation for the folks I've listed compared to the air time that country charts toppers are getting (and it might be a case of the chicken/egg scenario) I'd say that if people heard The Derailers "100% Pure Fool" as much as they heard "This Kiss" they'd have bought just as many! Most country radio stations seem to play a handful of artists over and over again. So, why not "brainwash" them with some really good stuff? How about hearing "Who Did You Call Darlin" 20 times a day? Play it.they will come. Check out the spins that most singles are getting on the country charts as compared to the Americana charts. That's where some of the answers may be "hidden." I'm certainly no fortune teller, but, I know that if I heard "Lose Nut Behind the Wheel" over the airwaves I'd be calling up the station and asking to hear it again and again. > I frankly think that what's happening is that the novelty factor is wearing > off for a lot of the newer country listeners, and they're off to look for > the Next Big Thing without much concern for whether it's labeled rock or pop > or something else again. =Your point about the novelty of the music for all the newcomers is a good one. Hopefully, Disco will make a comeback and they can all head in that direction! Best, Kate N.P. Willie - Teatro (what gorgeous CD this is for a real snowy day)
RE: Clip: The state of country radio
> Well, well, wellmaybe if they started playing folks like Dale > Watson, The > Derailers, Duane Jarvis, Joe Ely, Jimmie Dale Gilmore, Rosie Flores, Kelly > Willis, Jann Browne, Heather Myles, Mike Ireland, Lucinda, > Lauderdale, Cisco, > The Hollisters, Buddy Miller and Steve Earle they'd get those > listeners back. > > .just a thought! And a nice one, too, but also a questionable one. These folks are already on the air in many major markets, and they have albums out, too, yet they don't, with the occasional exception, seem to be drawing listeners and buyers in the kind of numbers that mainstream country radio is looking for, and it was getting away from, not moving toward, the twangier stuff that brought a lot of listeners in in the first place; why would moving toward it bring those people back now? I frankly think that what's happening is that the novelty factor is wearing off for a lot of the newer country listeners, and they're off to look for the Next Big Thing without much concern for whether it's labeled rock or pop or something else again. I haven't seen even a whisper of a desire for twangier, more hardcore country stuff in the coverage of the CRS that's been posted here - and in fact, the positive references to "outlaws" merely underlines the point, as the musical content of The Outlaws boom of the 70s consisted in large part of "breaking the rules" and "taking risks" by bringing more rock influences into the country mainstream. The best thing that can happen to country music right now is for the audience to shrink. Jon Weisberger Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger/
Re: Clip: The state of country radio
Is there another genre of music that has so thoroughly turned its back on such a large segment of its roots? Rock and roll comes to mind.
Re: Clip: The state of country radio
Kate writes: >Well, well, wellmaybe if they started playing folks like Dale >Watson, The Derailers, Duane Jarvis, Joe Ely, Jimmie Dale >Gilmore, Rosie Flores, Kelly Willis, Jann Browne, Heather >Myles, Mike Ireland, Lucinda, Lauderdale, Cisco, The Hollisters, >Buddy Miller and Steve Earle they'd get those >listeners back. > >.just a thought! I don't think that big changes are in the works, personally. Radio has been taking its lumps on this subject for years and they inevitably chalk it up to "a vocal minority of malcontents," or words to that effect. In addition, most of these artists are on small labels and don't have the dough to duke it out toe-to-toe with the majors in terms of pushing their stuff at radio. Finally, my most cynical belief is that collective change is unlikely simply because it sounds too much like the consultants admitting that they've been wrong. I recall a Dale Watson interview a couple of years back where he said that he would gladly accept a country music industry that was half its current size if it meant that the music got back to its roots as a result. If radio continues its current approach, he might just get his wish! --Jon Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wollaston, Massachusetts
Re: Clip: The state of country radio
Well, well, wellmaybe if they started playing folks like Dale Watson, The Derailers, Duane Jarvis, Joe Ely, Jimmie Dale Gilmore, Rosie Flores, Kelly Willis, Jann Browne, Heather Myles, Mike Ireland, Lucinda, Lauderdale, Cisco, The Hollisters, Buddy Miller and Steve Earle they'd get those listeners back. .just a thought! Kate [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Listeners are deserting country music radio > stations because they're bored with the music being played, according to > two teams of researchers who spoke at a convention of radio industry > workers.
