LODD Telcon
Here's the reminder for tomorrow's LODD telcon.
Cheers,
Susie
== Conference Details == * Date of Call: Wednesday June 24, 2009 * Time of
Call: 11:00am Eastern Daylight Time (EDT) * Dial-In #: +1.617.761.6200
(Cambridge, MA) * Dial-In #: +33.4.89.06.34.99 (Nice, France) * Dial-In #:
+44.117.370.6152 (Bristol, UK) * Participant Access Code: 4257 ("HCLS"). *
IRC Channel: irc.w3.org port 6665 channel #HCLS * Duration: ~1h * Convener:
Susie == Agenda == * Progress on TCM & Slidder - Anja, Jun * Progress on
STITCH - Matthias, Anja * Pharma use case - Bosse, Susie * DILS Poster - Jun
* iTriplification Challenge - Anja * AOB
HCLS Telcon reminder
Here's the reminder for Thursday's HCLS call.
New participants please see http://esw.w3.org/topic/HCLSIG and
http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/Teleconferences and info about mibbit at
the end of this message.
Cheers,
Scott
== Conference Details ==
* Date of Call: Thursday June 25, 2009
* Time of Call: 11:00am Eastern Daylight Time (EDT), 16:00 British
Summer Time (BST), 17:00 Central European Time (CET)
* Dial-In #: +1.617.761.6200 (Cambridge, MA)
* Dial-In #: +33.4.89.06.34.99 (Nice, France)
* Dial-In #: +44.117.370.6152 (Bristol, UK)
* Participant Access Code: 4257 ("HCLS").
* IRC Channel: irc.w3.org port 6665 channel #HCLS (see W3C IRC page
for details, or see Web IRC)
* Duration: ~1h
* Convener: Scott, Susie
== Agenda ==
* Access control approaches to RDF for policy/security [ericP]
* Trip report: SemTech [ericP]
* Trip report: Visit to Pharma IT Conference [Scott]
* AOB
IRC
* If you do not have an IRC client installed on your computer, you can
get one of the many free one (search "irc client" and your platform), or
you can use a web-based client.
One possible web-based client you might try is Mibbit
(http://www.mibbit.com/chat/). If you use mibbit, fill out the blanks
like this: you need to click on "Server" (highlighted in red in attached
image) to reveal the "Server address" field. NOTE: this meeting will use
the "hcls" channel.
(Note that I suggest using port 80 from mibbit. The W3C irc server
supports this, and it neatly bypasses enterprise firewall issues that
many users seem to be having with port 6667.)
<>
Re: Can RDFa be used on XML: pharma information
At 10:48 PM 6/23/2009 +1000, Rick Jelliffe wrote: >I see that the 2008 draft > http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/rdfa-overview >says > "RDFa itself is intended to be a technique that allows for adding metadata to > any (XML) markup document, including SMIL, RSS, SVG, MathML, etc. Note, > however, that in the current state, RDFa is being defined only for the > (X)HTML family of languages." The RDFa specification was designed with the intent that other languages than XHTML could take advantage of RDFa markup. (The terminology "host language" was used in some drafts to signal this direction.) The charter under which the group was operating was specific to XHTML, thus the wording in the W3C Recommendation. >So I think I will go ahead and add some RDFa markup to the >XML, By all means, reuse the RDFa vocabulary if it seems appropriate for your application.
Re: Can RDFa be used on XML: pharma information
Egon Willighagen wrote: Namespace... to solve this, you could do instead: Canteen Cuisine where the prefix xhtml would be bound to the namespace belonging to XHTML+RDFa... Waaa? In XML namespaces, an attribute with no qualifier is in no namespace. Does the RDF community work things so that you can detach any attribute with non namespace and re-use it with its element's namespace/prefix? Are you saying that a generic RDFa processor would actually be looking for xhtml:*/@property and would not understand */@property? Or are you saying that a generic RDFa processor would also accept */@xshtml:property Cheers Rick Jelliffe
Re: Can RDFa be used on XML: pharma information
Hello, A nice example of the traps of data linking. The data seems to say that Einstein was born in the Federal Republic of Germany. In fact, he was born before the FRG was founded. Take care Oliver On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 9:22 AM, Rick Jelliffe wrote: > Egon Willighagen wrote: >> >> The problem here is to define what attributes your XML will use to >> define the RDFa hooks... what attributes will define a new subject, >> the predicate, and how you define the object... >> >> > > Yes, we lose the html:base element and html:link, but why would we lose the > predicates? @rel and @rev would presumably be available on any element: > couldn't it be used so that instead of > > http://dbpedia.org/resource/Albert_Einstein";> > Albert Einstein > 1879-03-14 > http://dbpedia.org/resource/Germany";> > Federal Republic of > Germany > > > > I can have > > http://dbpedia.org/resource/Albert_Einstein";> > Albert Einstein > 1879-03-14 > resource="http://dbpedia.org/resource/Germany";> > Federal Republic of > Germany > > > > It seems to me that where-ever RDFa does not rely on HTML semantics, it > "should" be free (there is no conceptual impediment) to use on XML: it can > certainly determine whether an XML element has a legit XMLliteral or mixed > or element content. > >> Because the XML is using a local namespace, it will be unrecognizable >> for any client... however, given you define those attributes (or via >> new elements), you should be able to embed this RDFa in the HTML more >> easily too... >> > > What is the necessary difference, for an RDFa engine, between > > property="dc:title"> > Canteen Cuisine > > > and > > property="dc:title"> > Canteen Cuisine > > > Cheers > Rick Jelliffe > > > -- Oliver Ruebenacker, Computational Cell Biologist BioPAX Integration at Virtual Cell (http://vcell.org/biopax) Center for Cell Analysis and Modeling http://www.oliver.curiousworld.org
Re: Can RDFa be used on XML: pharma information
On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 3:22 PM, Rick Jelliffe wrote: > Yes, we lose the html:base element and html:link, but why would we lose the > predicates? @rel and @rev would presumably be available on any element: > couldn't it be used so that instead of > > http://dbpedia.org/resource/Albert_Einstein";> > Albert Einstein > 1879-03-14 > http://dbpedia.org/resource/Germany";> > Federal Republic of > Germany > > > > I can have > > http://dbpedia.org/resource/Albert_Einstein";> Sure, but just remember that for a computer the second about is an attribute in another namespace... which implies different semantics... Moreover, it can potentionally invalidate your XML file, as the DTD or XML Schema or Relax NG would not define that attribute for that element... > It seems to me that where-ever RDFa does not rely on HTML semantics, it > "should" be free (there is no conceptual impediment) to use on XML: it can > certainly determine whether an XML element has a legit XMLliteral or mixed > or element content. Yes, you are free to update the definition of your XML to do this. >> Because the XML is using a local namespace, it will be unrecognizable >> for any client... however, given you define those attributes (or via >> new elements), you should be able to embed this RDFa in the HTML more >> easily too... >> > > What is the necessary difference, for an RDFa engine, between > > property="dc:title"> > Canteen Cuisine > > > and > > property="dc:title"> > Canteen Cuisine > Namespace... to solve this, you could do instead: Canteen Cuisine where the prefix xhtml would be bound to the namespace belonging to XHTML+RDFa... Egon -- Post-doc @ Uppsala University http://chem-bla-ics.blogspot.com/
Re: Can RDFa be used on XML: pharma information
Egon Willighagen wrote: The problem here is to define what attributes your XML will use to define the RDFa hooks... what attributes will define a new subject, the predicate, and how you define the object... Yes, we lose the html:base element and html:link, but why would we lose the predicates? @rel and @rev would presumably be available on any element: couldn't it be used so that instead of http://dbpedia.org/resource/Albert_Einstein";> Albert Einstein 1879-03-14 http://dbpedia.org/resource/Germany";> Federal Republic of Germany I can have http://dbpedia.org/resource/Albert_Einstein";> Albert Einstein 1879-03-14 http://dbpedia.org/resource/Germany";> Federal Republic of Germany It seems to me that where-ever RDFa does not rely on HTML semantics, it "should" be free (there is no conceptual impediment) to use on XML: it can certainly determine whether an XML element has a legit XMLliteral or mixed or element content. Because the XML is using a local namespace, it will be unrecognizable for any client... however, given you define those attributes (or via new elements), you should be able to embed this RDFa in the HTML more easily too... What is the necessary difference, for an RDFa engine, between Canteen Cuisine and Canteen Cuisine Cheers Rick Jelliffe
Re: Can RDFa be used on XML: pharma information
On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 2:48 PM, Rick Jelliffe wrote: > I see that the 2008 draft > http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/rdfa-overview > says > "RDFa itself is intended to be a technique that allows for adding metadata > to any (XML) markup document, including SMIL, RSS, SVG, MathML, etc. Note, > however, that in the current state, RDFa is being defined only for the > (X)HTML family of languages." > > So I think I will go ahead and add some RDFa markup to the XML, so that > there is some data on the web which might stimulate developers or inform > them, and tell the client that we may need to change tack. The problem here is to define what attributes your XML will use to define the RDFa hooks... what attributes will define a new subject, the predicate, and how you define the object... Because the XML is using a local namespace, it will be unrecognizable for any client... however, given you define those attributes (or via new elements), you should be able to embed this RDFa in the HTML more easily too... Egon -- Post-doc @ Uppsala University http://chem-bla-ics.blogspot.com/
Re: Can RDFa be used on XML: pharma information
I see that the 2008 draft http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/rdfa-overview says "RDFa itself is intended to be a technique that allows for adding metadata to any (XML) markup document, including SMIL, RSS, SVG, MathML, etc. Note, however, that in the current state, RDFa is being defined only for the (X)HTML family of languages." So I think I will go ahead and add some RDFa markup to the XML, so that there is some data on the web which might stimulate developers or inform them, and tell the client that we may need to change tack. Cheers Rick Jelliffe
Re: Can RDFa be used on XML: pharma information
Hi Rick, So there is still no convenient way to mark up existing XML as RDF? It was a showstopper 10 years ago but I kind of expected there would have been some progress I rather think that using XML as the default representation for RDF was the showstopper back then. RDF/XML is not a good serialisation for RDF, Turtle and N-Triples would have been a much better choice in comparison. I guess the choice for RDF/XML was made for diplomatic reasons (not basing any kind of new data standard on XML was unthinkable at that time), rather than practicality. (Like I said, it has different info from the HTML so adding RDFa to the HTML won't work; also the XML has existing customers so we don't want to alter that, though the idea of duplicating the XML data as RDF seems workable but a terrible hack; and we want to avoid having a new datafeed.) So you do not want to alter the XML in a substantial way, and neither want to create a RDF representation out of the XML via some kind of transformation? I am afraid that solving you problem is not possible under these constraints. Cheers, Matthias Samwald DERI Galway, Ireland http://deri.ie/ Konrad Lorenz Institute for Evolution & Cognition Research, Austria http://kli.ac.at/
Re: Can RDFa be used on XML: pharma information
On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 12:15 PM, Rick Jelliffe wrote: > Markup = annotation. Taking existing data and adding stuff to make it more > useful, without disrupting existing uses of that data (and without creating > the size/maintenance issues you get from duplication.) > One of the rationales for this project is to make more effective use of > bandwidth, which makes me lean against duplication somewhat, but it may > indeed be the appropriate way. OK, so the requirement is to: 1. stick with the current XML, 2. provide RDF/XML. I think XSLT route proposed by others is the way to go then, making a third end point, which would take the current XML as input, convert it with XSLT to RDF/XML. Using RDF/XML has the advantage here that you can validate your XSLT stylesheet for the output content too, increasing your changes of detecting typos etc. Egon -- Post-doc @ Uppsala University http://chem-bla-ics.blogspot.com/
Re: Can RDFa be used on XML: pharma information
Egon Willighagen wrote: On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 11:49 AM, Rick Jelliffe wrote: So there is still no convenient way to mark up existing XML as RDF? It was a showstopper 10 years ago but I kind of expected there would have been some progresssigh Define 'markup'... Markup = annotation. Taking existing data and adding stuff to make it more useful, without disrupting existing uses of that data (and without creating the size/maintenance issues you get from duplication.) One of the rationales for this project is to make more effective use of bandwidth, which makes me lean against duplication somewhat, but it may indeed be the appropriate way. Cheers, and thanks, Rick Jelliffe
Re: Can RDFa be used on XML: pharma information
Dan Brickley wrote: On 23/6/09 11:49, Rick Jelliffe wrote: So there is still no convenient way to mark up existing XML as RDF? It was a showstopper 10 years ago but I kind of expected there would have been some progresssigh Well, since you didn't seem keen on converting all the XML to RDF I didn't point you at http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/REC-grddl-20070911/ ... but that's certainly one of the answers to "how to map XML into RDF" that we didn't have in 1999. Since you're an XSLT genius, maybe it wouldn't be horribly painful just to write a convertor XSLT and link that from the namespace doc of your XML files? I quite like the idea of GRDDL actually. I'm looking at it tonight too. Thanks! Rick
Re: Can RDFa be used on XML: pharma information
On 23/6/09 11:49, Rick Jelliffe wrote: So there is still no convenient way to mark up existing XML as RDF? It was a showstopper 10 years ago but I kind of expected there would have been some progresssigh Well, since you didn't seem keen on converting all the XML to RDF I didn't point you at http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/REC-grddl-20070911/ ... but that's certainly one of the answers to "how to map XML into RDF" that we didn't have in 1999. Since you're an XSLT genius, maybe it wouldn't be horribly painful just to write a convertor XSLT and link that from the namespace doc of your XML files? cheers, Dan
Re: Can RDFa be used on XML: pharma information
On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 11:49 AM, Rick Jelliffe wrote: > So there is still no convenient way to mark up existing XML as RDF? It was > a showstopper 10 years ago but I kind of expected there would have been some > progresssigh Define 'markup'... you can just embed your RDF in your XML, using RDF/XML... the namespacing is the indication what is RDF and what is not... no other 'markup' needed... Can you elaborate on the inconveniences you talk about a bit more? That makes providing solutions easier... Egon -- Post-doc @ Uppsala University http://chem-bla-ics.blogspot.com/
Re: Can RDFa be used on XML: pharma information
So there is still no convenient way to mark up existing XML as RDF? It was a showstopper 10 years ago but I kind of expected there would have been some progresssigh (Like I said, it has different info from the HTML so adding RDFa to the HTML won't work; also the XML has existing customers so we don't want to alter that, though the idea of duplicating the XML data as RDF seems workable but a terrible hack; and we want to avoid having a new datafeed.) Cheers Rick Jelliffe
Re: Can RDFa be used on XML: pharma information
Hi Rick, I think adding parts of RDFa into your XML without turning the whole XML into some kind of XHTML document will not help much. If you want to use RDFa and make your data part of the Semantic Web, why don't you add more RDFa to your current HTML pages? I see that they do not contain all of the data in your XML file, but still there is some valuable information in the tables that is still without semantic markup. In case that the HTML and XML are generated from the same databases (and this seems to be the case), you could also make the information that is currently only available in the XML version available in the HTML version. If you want to hide the details from the reader, but make it available to the machines, then you can use 'hidden' RDFa. Just some ideas. Cheers, Matthias Samwald DERI Galway, Ireland http://deri.ie/ Konrad Lorenz Institute for Evolution & Cognition Research, Austria http://kli.ac.at/ -- From: "Rick Jelliffe" Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 11:20 AM To: Subject: Can RDFa be used on XML: pharma information I am working on improving the semweb markup on an Australian government Department of Health and Aging website, which has HTML and XML versions of the medicines allowed for prescription and the amount the government pays. It has various links to interesting documents, and we want to make it more semweb friendly. Here are two example pages to give you the idea (they have different selections of data): http://www.pbs.gov.au/html/consumer/search/results?term=Zyprexa%20Zydis&publication=GE http://www.pbs.gov.au/xml/consumer/search/results?term=Zyprexa%20Zydis&publication=GE We are doing some general things like improving the microformats (DC and hproduct) in the HTML. But the plan was to decorate the XML (which has extra information) with the appropriate RDFa, which seems perfect. But now I see that the RDFa spec says that RDFa is designed for use on XHTML. We do no want to use it that way, we want to augment the XML. So I was wondering if anyone here had any advice? I see the choices 1) Convert to old RDF or some other format and making this available too: but we really don't want to do this (an extra thing to maintain, more bandwidth, etc) 2) Just ploughing ahead and using RDFa on XML even if nothing can use it. (Would that be the case?) 3) Err, Something clever from people on this list. Any ideas about what people do with RDF? Cheers Rick Jelliffe
Re: Can RDFa be used on XML: pharma information
On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 11:20 AM, Rick Jelliffe wrote: > I am working on improving the semweb markup on an Australian government > Department of Health and Aging website, which has HTML and XML versions of > the medicines allowed for prescription and the amount the government pays. > It has various links to interesting documents, and we want to make it more > semweb friendly. > > Here are two example pages to give you the idea (they have different > selections of data): > > http://www.pbs.gov.au/html/consumer/search/results?term=Zyprexa%20Zydis&publication=GE > > http://www.pbs.gov.au/xml/consumer/search/results?term=Zyprexa%20Zydis&publication=GE > > We are doing some general things like improving the microformats (DC and > hproduct) in the HTML. > > But the plan was to decorate the XML (which has extra information) with the > appropriate RDFa, which seems perfect. But now I see that the RDFa spec says > that RDFa is designed for use on XHTML. We do no want to use it that way, we > want to augment the XML. > > So I was wondering if anyone here had any advice? I see the choices Instead of the XML end point, I would express all that content as RDF (possibly in the XML format). If you need the XML for the metadata info on the request, you could consider putting a element somewhere in your custom XML. Egon -- Post-doc @ Uppsala University http://chem-bla-ics.blogspot.com/
Can RDFa be used on XML: pharma information
I am working on improving the semweb markup on an Australian government Department of Health and Aging website, which has HTML and XML versions of the medicines allowed for prescription and the amount the government pays. It has various links to interesting documents, and we want to make it more semweb friendly. Here are two example pages to give you the idea (they have different selections of data): http://www.pbs.gov.au/html/consumer/search/results?term=Zyprexa%20Zydis&publication=GE http://www.pbs.gov.au/xml/consumer/search/results?term=Zyprexa%20Zydis&publication=GE We are doing some general things like improving the microformats (DC and hproduct) in the HTML. But the plan was to decorate the XML (which has extra information) with the appropriate RDFa, which seems perfect. But now I see that the RDFa spec says that RDFa is designed for use on XHTML. We do no want to use it that way, we want to augment the XML. So I was wondering if anyone here had any advice? I see the choices 1) Convert to old RDF or some other format and making this available too: but we really don't want to do this (an extra thing to maintain, more bandwidth, etc) 2) Just ploughing ahead and using RDFa on XML even if nothing can use it. (Would that be the case?) 3) Err, Something clever from people on this list. Any ideas about what people do with RDF? Cheers Rick Jelliffe
INAP 2009: 2nd Call for Papers
[apologies for cross-posting; please distribute] --- (PLEASE DISTRIBUTE) Second Call for Papers INAP 2009 18th International Conference on Applications of Declarative Programming and Knowledge Management November 5-7, 2009 Evora, Portugal http://www.di.uevora.pt/inap2009/ http://inap.dialogengines.com/ Organized by the Portuguese AI Society (APPIA), the INAP Committee and the Society of Logic Programming (GLP e.V.) == Overview == Declarative Programming is a family of advanced paradigms for the modeling and solving of complex problems. These specification and implementation methods have attracted more and more attention over the past years, e.g. in the domains of databases and natural language processing, for modeling and the processing of combinatorial problems, and for establishing systems for the web. == INAP 2009 == INAP is a communicative and dense forum for intensive discussion of applications of important technologies related to Prolog, Logic and Constraint Programming as well as closely related advanced software. It comprehensively covers the impact of programmable logic solvers in the Internet Society, its underlying technologies, and leading edge applications in industry, commerce, government, and societal services. INAP 2009 continues a tradition of successful workshops cast around the applications of declarative programming, which were held in Kobe (1997), Tokyo (1995, 1996, 1998 - 2001), Potsdam (2004), Fukuoka (2005) and Wuerzburg (2007). We invite the submission of high quality papers on the described topics, especially, but not exclusively, on different aspects of Declarative Programming, Constraint Processing and Knowledge Management as well as their use for Distributed Systems and the Web: - Knowledge Management, e.g. Data Mining, Decision Support, Deductive Databases - Distributed Systems and the Web, e.g. Agents and Concurrent Engineering, Semantic Web - Constraints, e.g. Constraint Systems, Extensions of Constraint (Logic) Programming - Theoretical Foundations, e.g. Deductive Databases, Nonmonotonic Reasoning - Systems and Tools for Academic and Industrial Use - Knowledge-based Web Services - Logic Solvers and Applications == Workshop Format == The technical program of the workshop will include invited presentations (to be announced), regular technical sessions with presentations of the accepted papers, system demonstrations and a panel discussion. == Conference Venue == The conference will be held at the University of Evora, Portugal in November 5-7, 2009. Evora is a nice and quiet historical city located in the south of Portugal that can be reached from Lisbon by train or coach in under 2 hours. It is a small city of 60.000 inhabitants, 120 km inland from Lisbon and classified by Unesco as World Heritage. The University of Evora was established in the 16th Century and is the 2nd oldest Portuguese University. The social program is promising since the region is very rich in historical sites (Stone Age, Roman, Medieval and Renaissance remains) and also offers a very special gastronomy. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89vora for more information. == Important Dates == Paper Submission Deadline: June 29, 2009 Notifications to Authors:August 17, 2009 Camera-ready Version Deadline: September 14, 2009 INAP 2009 Workshop: November 5-7, 2009 == Submission Guidelines == Participants should submit a paper (maximum 15 pages, PDF format), describing their work in topics relevant to the workshop. Accepted papers will be presented during the workshop. At least one author of an accepted contribution is expected to register for the workshop, and present the paper. All submissions should include the author's name(s), affiliation, complete mailing address, and email address. Authors are requested to prepare their submissions, following the LNCS/LNAI Springer format. Please see: http://www.springer.de/comp/lncs/authors.html for further details. The submission should be submitted through the electronic submission site: http://www.easychair.org/conferences/?conf=inap2009 The deadline for receipt of submissions is June 29, 2009. Papers received after this date will not be reviewed. Eligible papers will be peer-reviewed by at least three members of the Program Committee. Authors will be notified via email of the results by August 17, 2009. Authors of accepted papers are expected to improve their paper based on reviewers' comments and to s
