[Python-Dev] Re: Inline links in Misc/NEWS entries
> * The BODY section should be a single paragraph of English text in ReST format. It should not use the following ReST markup features: > * section headers > * comments > * directives, citations, or footnotes > * Any features that require significant line breaks, like lists, definition lists, quoted paragraphs, line blocks, literal code blocks, and tables. As far as I can tell, the usage of inline markup for links with something like :func:\`os.listdir\` would not be in violation of this. Also, as a clarification, what I was describing was apparently just Sphinx, not reST: https://devguide.python.org/documenting/#id4. For some reason, I was under the impression that the syntax was reST and then Sphinx processed the markup to find a matching link. I'm not certain as to whether or not blurb supports Sphinx. If not, I wouldn't mind assisting with the process of adding support for it, I think it's worthwhile to include inline links when appropriate. If not, the link could also be provided with the reST cross-link markup: :ref:\`label\` as long as the section has a corresponding label. This doesn't seem like it uses any of the above restricted reST features. But if that's also an issue, a more explicit reST hyper link could be provided with: \`Link text < http://target>\`_. However, direct links are probably the most likely to become deprecated or lead to dead ends, so the other options would be more preferable for less maintenance. Thanks, Kyle Stanley On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 2:41 AM Mariatta wrote: > > I would like to understand why some developers dislike including it, > even when the reST syntax is provided. > > This has something to do with the use of blurb/blurb-it. Both tools > specifically say "single paragraph with simple ReST markup". > > Further reading blurb's source code, it says the format of the news blurb > should be as follows: > > * The BODY section should be a single paragraph of English text > in ReST format. It should not use the following ReST markup > features: > * section headers > * comments > * directives, citations, or footnotes > * Any features that require significant line breaks, > like lists, definition lists, quoted paragraphs, line blocks, > literal code blocks, and tables. > > > Perhaps Larry has more context on why the news entry should be "simple"? > > > ___ Python-Dev mailing list -- [email protected] To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/[email protected]/message/YTST7DKDTD3K6PIUE345J25B2CMJORLY/
[Python-Dev] Re: Inline links in Misc/NEWS entries
On Aug 13, 2019, at 00:20, Kyle Stanley wrote: > On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 2:41 AM Mariatta wrote: > > I would like to understand why some developers dislike including it, even > > when the reST syntax is provided. > > This has something to do with the use of blurb/blurb-it. Both tools > specifically say "single paragraph with simple ReST markup". > > Further reading blurb's source code, it says the format of the news blurb > should be as follows: > * The BODY section should be a single paragraph of English text > in ReST format. It should not use the following ReST markup > features: > * section headers > * comments > * directives, citations, or footnotes > * Any features that require significant line breaks, > like lists, definition lists, quoted paragraphs, line blocks, > literal code blocks, and tables. Note that there is an open devguide issue that requests improvements in the description of news entry processing: https://github.com/python/devguide/issues/358 Release managers are responsible for reviewing and editing, as necessary, the changelog files that are produced in the docset for each release from the individual blurb news items. In general, using many Python-specific Sphinx markup entities is fine: browsing though the consolidated blurb files for previous releases (and the resultant changelog html) shows uses of entities like :func: and :class:. See, for example: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/python/cpython/3.7/Misc/NEWS.d/3.7.4rc1.rst https://docs.python.org/3/whatsnew/changelog.html#python-3-7-4-release-candidate-1 Another thing that we look for is brevity. In general, news entries should be short, ideally one to three sentences. They should not go into great detail as the point of the changelog is to provide a high-level overview of the changes going into each release. Readers interested in more detail can click on the link to the bpo issue for the full discussion and links to PRs and merges. -- Ned Deily [email protected] -- [] ___ Python-Dev mailing list -- [email protected] To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/[email protected]/message/JOMQABYA5QEQG5L6WXQJT3LXU2GF7UX4/
[Python-Dev] Re: Inline links in Misc/NEWS entries
> Note that there is an open devguide issue that requests improvements in the description of news entry processing Good to know, I'll look further into this issue and see if I can help with it. > In general, using many Python-specific Sphinx markup entities is fine: browsing though the consolidated blurb files for previous releases (and the resultant changelog html) shows uses of entities like :func: and :class:. Since it's okay to use Python-specific Sphinx, should we encourage the usage of it when appropriate, such as when the links could provide helpful information to users? The primary purpose of me creating this topic was because there seems to be some sentiment that it's perfectly fine to exclusively use plaintext in the news entries. Especially in cases where authors have rejected suggestions to adding the Sphinx markup in their PRs. There seems to be some sentiment that it's perfectly fine to exclusively use plaintext in every news entry. Personally, I think it's a bit more nuanced, and that the links can sometimes be very helpful for readers. > Readers interested in more detail can click on the link to the bpo issue for the full discussion and links to PRs and merges. Similarly to clicking on the bpo issue, users being able to also click on the link for functions and classes for more details also allow the news entry to be more succinct. Especially for changes involving complex modules, such as asyncio. But even for more simple changes, it shows newer readers where they can find more information on the more commonly used functions. Also, a related question: would it be helpful for contributors to look through news entries for the latest stable and beta releases, and add inline links where they could be useful for readers? I would be more than happy to help with this. A large part of the reason why I started contributing is because I've always been very pleased with the quality of Python's documentation and helpfulness towards newer users. It was my first programming language 5+ years ago. My primary goals are to further improve the documentation and other resources for newer users of the language. Thanks, Kyle Stanley On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 3:58 AM Ned Deily wrote: > On Aug 13, 2019, at 00:20, Kyle Stanley wrote: > > On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 2:41 AM Mariatta > wrote: > > > I would like to understand why some developers dislike including it, > even when the reST syntax is provided. > > > > This has something to do with the use of blurb/blurb-it. Both tools > specifically say "single paragraph with simple ReST markup". > > > > Further reading blurb's source code, it says the format of the news > blurb should be as follows: > > * The BODY section should be a single paragraph of English text > > in ReST format. It should not use the following ReST markup > > features: > > * section headers > > * comments > > * directives, citations, or footnotes > > * Any features that require significant line breaks, > > like lists, definition lists, quoted paragraphs, line blocks, > > literal code blocks, and tables. > > Note that there is an open devguide issue that requests improvements in > the description of news entry processing: > https://github.com/python/devguide/issues/358 > > Release managers are responsible for reviewing and editing, as necessary, > the changelog files that are produced in the docset for each release from > the individual blurb news items. In general, using many Python-specific > Sphinx markup entities is fine: browsing though the consolidated blurb > files for previous releases (and the resultant changelog html) shows uses > of entities like :func: and :class:. See, for example: > > > https://raw.githubusercontent.com/python/cpython/3.7/Misc/NEWS.d/3.7.4rc1.rst > > https://docs.python.org/3/whatsnew/changelog.html#python-3-7-4-release-candidate-1 > > Another thing that we look for is brevity. In general, news entries > should be short, ideally one to three sentences. They should not go into > great detail as the point of the changelog is to provide a high-level > overview of the changes going into each release. Readers interested in > more detail can click on the link to the bpo issue for the full discussion > and links to PRs and merges. > > -- > Ned Deily > [email protected] -- [] > > ___ Python-Dev mailing list -- [email protected] To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/[email protected]/message/7CK6RRERHSLEZDFBT2AFRJ3N7FNUSRIX/
[Python-Dev] Re: Inline links in Misc/NEWS entries
> There seems to be some sentiment that it's perfectly fine to exclusively use plaintext in every news entry. Oops, that third sentence was a typo, I didn't intend to repeat myself there. On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 6:31 PM Kyle Stanley wrote: > > Note that there is an open devguide issue that requests improvements in > the description of news entry processing > > Good to know, I'll look further into this issue and see if I can help with > it. > > > In general, using many Python-specific Sphinx markup entities is fine: > browsing though the consolidated blurb files for previous releases (and the > resultant changelog html) shows uses of entities like :func: and :class:. > > Since it's okay to use Python-specific Sphinx, should we encourage the > usage of it when appropriate, such as when the links could provide helpful > information to users? > > The primary purpose of me creating this topic was because there seems to > be some sentiment that it's perfectly fine to exclusively use plaintext in > the news entries. Especially in cases where authors have rejected > suggestions to adding the Sphinx markup in their PRs. There seems to be > some sentiment that it's perfectly fine to exclusively use plaintext in > every news entry. Personally, I think it's a bit more nuanced, and that the > links can sometimes be very helpful for readers. > > > Readers interested in more detail can click on the link to the bpo issue > for the full discussion and links to PRs and merges. > > Similarly to clicking on the bpo issue, users being able to also click on > the link for functions and classes for more details also allow the news > entry to be more succinct. Especially for changes involving complex > modules, such as asyncio. But even for more simple changes, it shows newer > readers where they can find more information on the more commonly used > functions. > > Also, a related question: would it be helpful for contributors to look > through news entries for the latest stable and beta releases, and add > inline links where they could be useful for readers? > > I would be more than happy to help with this. A large part of the reason > why I started contributing is because I've always been very pleased with > the quality of Python's documentation and helpfulness towards newer users. > It was my first programming language 5+ years ago. My primary goals are to > further improve the documentation and other resources for newer users of > the language. > > Thanks, > Kyle Stanley > > > On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 3:58 AM Ned Deily wrote: > >> On Aug 13, 2019, at 00:20, Kyle Stanley wrote: >> > On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 2:41 AM Mariatta >> wrote: >> > > I would like to understand why some developers dislike including it, >> even when the reST syntax is provided. >> > >> > This has something to do with the use of blurb/blurb-it. Both tools >> specifically say "single paragraph with simple ReST markup". >> > >> > Further reading blurb's source code, it says the format of the news >> blurb should be as follows: >> > * The BODY section should be a single paragraph of English text >> > in ReST format. It should not use the following ReST markup >> > features: >> > * section headers >> > * comments >> > * directives, citations, or footnotes >> > * Any features that require significant line breaks, >> > like lists, definition lists, quoted paragraphs, line blocks, >> > literal code blocks, and tables. >> >> Note that there is an open devguide issue that requests improvements in >> the description of news entry processing: >> https://github.com/python/devguide/issues/358 >> >> Release managers are responsible for reviewing and editing, as necessary, >> the changelog files that are produced in the docset for each release from >> the individual blurb news items. In general, using many Python-specific >> Sphinx markup entities is fine: browsing though the consolidated blurb >> files for previous releases (and the resultant changelog html) shows uses >> of entities like :func: and :class:. See, for example: >> >> >> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/python/cpython/3.7/Misc/NEWS.d/3.7.4rc1.rst >> >> https://docs.python.org/3/whatsnew/changelog.html#python-3-7-4-release-candidate-1 >> >> Another thing that we look for is brevity. In general, news entries >> should be short, ideally one to three sentences. They should not go into >> great detail as the point of the changelog is to provide a high-level >> overview of the changes going into each release. Readers interested in >> more detail can click on the link to the bpo issue for the full discussion >> and links to PRs and merges. >> >> -- >> Ned Deily >> [email protected] -- [] >> >> ___ Python-Dev mailing list -- [email protected] To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.or
[Python-Dev] Re: Inline links in Misc/NEWS entries
On Aug 13, 2019, at 15:31, Kyle Stanley wrote: > > In general, using many Python-specific Sphinx markup entities is fine: > > browsing though the consolidated blurb files for previous releases (and the > > resultant changelog html) shows uses of entities like :func: and :class:. > > Since it's okay to use Python-specific Sphinx, should we encourage the usage > of it when appropriate, such as when the links could provide helpful > information to users? > > The primary purpose of me creating this topic was because there seems to be > some sentiment that it's perfectly fine to exclusively use plaintext in the > news entries. Especially in cases where authors have rejected suggestions to > adding the Sphinx markup in their PRs. There seems to be some sentiment that > it's perfectly fine to exclusively use plaintext in every news entry. > Personally, I think it's a bit more nuanced, and that the links can sometimes > be very helpful for readers. The ability to effectively use Python-specific Sphinx features in NEWS entries is a relatively new feature so I think that is the primary reason it is not encouraged more: many people don't realize you can now do this. Back in the day, NEWS files were just treated as plaintext, not reST. This is still the case for Python 2.7 NEWS entries as the 2.7 docset was never modified to produce an HTML changelog as the Python 3.x docsets do. (Of course, that will soon be a non-issue when 2.7 reaches end-of-life status in 2020.) > Also, a related question: would it be helpful for contributors to look > through news entries for the latest stable and beta releases, and add inline > links where they could be useful for readers? We haven't done a lot of that in the past but I don't see a reason not to, especially since it is easy on most systems to generate the changelog by building the html docs in the source tree: https://devguide.python.org/documenting/#using-make-make-bat and then opening the resultant docs in your browser as a file (the html docs are self-contained with regard to static files and do not need a webserver). But other people may have other opinions on the matter. We could undoubtedly spend a lot of time tidying up old NEWS entries and, at some point, that time might be better spent on other things, like helping with the "What's New" documents for upcoming releases or just fixing bugs. But I think there could be a lot of benefit for a moderate bit of touching up. One important note: to avoid confusion, only edit the blurb NEWS rst files in the branch for that release, i.e. edit Misc/NEWS.d/3.8.0b1.rst in the 3.8 branch, not in the master branch. -- Ned Deily [email protected] -- [] ___ Python-Dev mailing list -- [email protected] To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/[email protected]/message/WQNYODDNTH6MFPBNJZZJR6AFFTD5CYBG/
[Python-Dev] Re: Inline links in Misc/NEWS entries
Could a bot be written to suggest upgraded markup for Misc/NEWS entries as a PR? Most e.g. class, method, and function references probably need ReST markup AND a more specific fully-qualified reference? Can class, method, and function lookups be done with the existing Sphinx API index? On Tuesday, August 13, 2019, Ned Deily wrote: > On Aug 13, 2019, at 15:31, Kyle Stanley wrote: > > > In general, using many Python-specific Sphinx markup entities is fine: > browsing though the consolidated blurb files for previous releases (and the > resultant changelog html) shows uses of entities like :func: and :class:. > > > > Since it's okay to use Python-specific Sphinx, should we encourage the > usage of it when appropriate, such as when the links could provide helpful > information to users? > > > > The primary purpose of me creating this topic was because there seems to > be some sentiment that it's perfectly fine to exclusively use plaintext in > the news entries. Especially in cases where authors have rejected > suggestions to adding the Sphinx markup in their PRs. There seems to be > some sentiment that it's perfectly fine to exclusively use plaintext in > every news entry. Personally, I think it's a bit more nuanced, and that the > links can sometimes be very helpful for readers. > > The ability to effectively use Python-specific Sphinx features in NEWS > entries is a relatively new feature so I think that is the primary reason > it is not encouraged more: many people don't realize you can now do this. > Back in the day, NEWS files were just treated as plaintext, not reST. This > is still the case for Python 2.7 NEWS entries as the 2.7 docset was never > modified to produce an HTML changelog as the Python 3.x docsets do. (Of > course, that will soon be a non-issue when 2.7 reaches end-of-life status > in 2020.) > > > Also, a related question: would it be helpful for contributors to look > through news entries for the latest stable and beta releases, and add > inline links where they could be useful for readers? > > We haven't done a lot of that in the past but I don't see a reason not to, > especially since it is easy on most systems to generate the changelog by > building the html docs in the source tree: > > https://devguide.python.org/documenting/#using-make-make-bat > > and then opening the resultant docs in your browser as a file (the html > docs are self-contained with regard to static files and do not need a > webserver). > > But other people may have other opinions on the matter. We could > undoubtedly spend a lot of time tidying up old NEWS entries and, at some > point, that time might be better spent on other things, like helping with > the "What's New" documents for upcoming releases or just fixing bugs. But > I think there could be a lot of benefit for a moderate bit of touching up. > > One important note: to avoid confusion, only edit the blurb NEWS rst files > in the branch for that release, i.e. edit Misc/NEWS.d/3.8.0b1.rst in the > 3.8 branch, not in the master branch. > > -- > Ned Deily > [email protected] -- [] > ___ > Python-Dev mailing list -- [email protected] > To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] > https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ > Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-dev@ > python.org/message/WQNYODDNTH6MFPBNJZZJR6AFFTD5CYBG/ > ___ Python-Dev mailing list -- [email protected] To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/[email protected]/message/QYXQ5UD34L2AQTQSUHJSEOYEBP4Q3HEB/
[Python-Dev] Re: Inline links in Misc/NEWS entries
> The ability to effectively use Python-specific Sphinx features in NEWS entries is a relatively new feature Ah, I think that would likely explain some of the inconsistent responses then. I think it would be worthwhile to add an example of using Sphinx and a brief explanation of when it can be useful in news entries. This would likely help improve awareness of the feature. > But other people may have other opinions on the matter. We could undoubtedly spend a lot of time tidying up old NEWS entries > and, at some point, that time might be better spent on other things, like helping with the "What's New" documents for upcoming > releases or just fixing bugs. But I think there could be a lot of benefit for a moderate bit of touching up. I would definitely agree that at some point, it could end up being a bit overkill (especially for further back versions). However, with regards to prioritizing different projects, such as tidying news entries vs fixing bugs, I think a large part of that comes down to each developer's personal priorities. Also, from my experience, PRs which involve tidying up documentation have a tendency to be a bit easier to review, so in general they would end up being less time consuming anyways. Also, thanks for the tips! I'll definitely look into helping with this. Thanks, Kyle Stanley On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 7:30 PM Ned Deily wrote: > On Aug 13, 2019, at 15:31, Kyle Stanley wrote: > > > In general, using many Python-specific Sphinx markup entities is fine: > browsing though the consolidated blurb files for previous releases (and the > resultant changelog html) shows uses of entities like :func: and :class:. > > > > Since it's okay to use Python-specific Sphinx, should we encourage the > usage of it when appropriate, such as when the links could provide helpful > information to users? > > > > The primary purpose of me creating this topic was because there seems to > be some sentiment that it's perfectly fine to exclusively use plaintext in > the news entries. Especially in cases where authors have rejected > suggestions to adding the Sphinx markup in their PRs. There seems to be > some sentiment that it's perfectly fine to exclusively use plaintext in > every news entry. Personally, I think it's a bit more nuanced, and that the > links can sometimes be very helpful for readers. > > The ability to effectively use Python-specific Sphinx features in NEWS > entries is a relatively new feature so I think that is the primary reason > it is not encouraged more: many people don't realize you can now do this. > Back in the day, NEWS files were just treated as plaintext, not reST. This > is still the case for Python 2.7 NEWS entries as the 2.7 docset was never > modified to produce an HTML changelog as the Python 3.x docsets do. (Of > course, that will soon be a non-issue when 2.7 reaches end-of-life status > in 2020.) > > > Also, a related question: would it be helpful for contributors to look > through news entries for the latest stable and beta releases, and add > inline links where they could be useful for readers? > > We haven't done a lot of that in the past but I don't see a reason not to, > especially since it is easy on most systems to generate the changelog by > building the html docs in the source tree: > > https://devguide.python.org/documenting/#using-make-make-bat > > and then opening the resultant docs in your browser as a file (the html > docs are self-contained with regard to static files and do not need a > webserver). > > But other people may have other opinions on the matter. We could > undoubtedly spend a lot of time tidying up old NEWS entries and, at some > point, that time might be better spent on other things, like helping with > the "What's New" documents for upcoming releases or just fixing bugs. But > I think there could be a lot of benefit for a moderate bit of touching up. > > One important note: to avoid confusion, only edit the blurb NEWS rst files > in the branch for that release, i.e. edit Misc/NEWS.d/3.8.0b1.rst in the > 3.8 branch, not in the master branch. > > -- > Ned Deily > [email protected] -- [] > > ___ Python-Dev mailing list -- [email protected] To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/[email protected]/message/SSNKSLSCN5GQ5Z27235VVXA5UBFTU3YW/
[Python-Dev] Re: Inline links in Misc/NEWS entries
> Could a bot be written to suggest upgraded markup for Misc/NEWS entries as a PR? Potentially, but to some degree, the decision of whether or not to use the Sphinx markup should be determined on a case by case basis, rather than indiscriminately applying the markup to every possible candidate. Generally, I've tried to only recommend to usage of the markup when the inline link would provide a potential benefit to the readers. Adding the markup to every possible candidate would result in an excessive number of irrelevant links and potentially lead to more dead links to clean up in the future as well. Thanks, Kyle Stanley On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 11:30 PM Wes Turner wrote: > Could a bot be written to suggest upgraded markup for Misc/NEWS entries as > a PR? > > Most e.g. class, method, and function references probably need ReST markup > AND a more specific fully-qualified reference? > > Can class, method, and function lookups be done with the existing Sphinx > API index? > > On Tuesday, August 13, 2019, Ned Deily wrote: > >> On Aug 13, 2019, at 15:31, Kyle Stanley wrote: >> > > In general, using many Python-specific Sphinx markup entities is >> fine: browsing though the consolidated blurb files for previous releases >> (and the resultant changelog html) shows uses of entities like :func: and >> :class:. >> > >> > Since it's okay to use Python-specific Sphinx, should we encourage the >> usage of it when appropriate, such as when the links could provide helpful >> information to users? >> > >> > The primary purpose of me creating this topic was because there seems >> to be some sentiment that it's perfectly fine to exclusively use plaintext >> in the news entries. Especially in cases where authors have rejected >> suggestions to adding the Sphinx markup in their PRs. There seems to be >> some sentiment that it's perfectly fine to exclusively use plaintext in >> every news entry. Personally, I think it's a bit more nuanced, and that the >> links can sometimes be very helpful for readers. >> >> The ability to effectively use Python-specific Sphinx features in NEWS >> entries is a relatively new feature so I think that is the primary reason >> it is not encouraged more: many people don't realize you can now do this. >> Back in the day, NEWS files were just treated as plaintext, not reST. This >> is still the case for Python 2.7 NEWS entries as the 2.7 docset was never >> modified to produce an HTML changelog as the Python 3.x docsets do. (Of >> course, that will soon be a non-issue when 2.7 reaches end-of-life status >> in 2020.) >> >> > Also, a related question: would it be helpful for contributors to look >> through news entries for the latest stable and beta releases, and add >> inline links where they could be useful for readers? >> >> We haven't done a lot of that in the past but I don't see a reason not >> to, especially since it is easy on most systems to generate the changelog >> by building the html docs in the source tree: >> >> https://devguide.python.org/documenting/#using-make-make-bat >> >> and then opening the resultant docs in your browser as a file (the html >> docs are self-contained with regard to static files and do not need a >> webserver). >> >> But other people may have other opinions on the matter. We could >> undoubtedly spend a lot of time tidying up old NEWS entries and, at some >> point, that time might be better spent on other things, like helping with >> the "What's New" documents for upcoming releases or just fixing bugs. But >> I think there could be a lot of benefit for a moderate bit of touching up. >> >> One important note: to avoid confusion, only edit the blurb NEWS rst >> files in the branch for that release, i.e. edit Misc/NEWS.d/3.8.0b1.rst in >> the 3.8 branch, not in the master branch. >> >> -- >> Ned Deily >> [email protected] -- [] >> ___ >> Python-Dev mailing list -- [email protected] >> To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] >> https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ >> Message archived at >> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/[email protected]/message/WQNYODDNTH6MFPBNJZZJR6AFFTD5CYBG/ >> > ___ Python-Dev mailing list -- [email protected] To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/python-dev.python.org/ Message archived at https://mail.python.org/archives/list/[email protected]/message/4UIY6UDE6V2TEKN2CY6EXJG5MITXIQFJ/
