[Python-Dev] Re: A proposal to modify `None` so that it hashes to a constant

2022-12-01 Thread Oscar Benjamin
On Thu, 1 Dec 2022 at 06:56, Chris Angelico  wrote:
>
> On Thu, 1 Dec 2022 at 17:26, Yoni Lavi  wrote:
> >
> > So it's not like it's even possible to require this generally for all 
> > objects.
>
> Well, I mean, in theory you could require that objects whose hash
> isn't otherwise defined get given the hash of zero. That doesn't
> violate any of the actual rules of hashes, but it does make those
> hashes quite suboptimal :)
>
> It's interesting how id() and hash() have opposite requirements (id
> must return a unique number among concurrently-existing objects, hash
> must return the same number among comparing-equal objects), yet a hash
> can be built on an id.

This also demonstrates a significant reason why None is special: it's
a singleton that only compares equal to itself. The reason for using
id for hash in other cases is to make different instances have
different hashes but there is only ever one instance of None. A
singleton class can have a hash function that matches identity based
equality without using id: any constant hash function will do.

--
Oscar
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[Python-Dev] Re: RFC: expose ssl internals for use by ctypes/cffi

2022-12-01 Thread Barry


> On 30 Nov 2022, at 16:59, [email protected] wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> for quite some time I've been working on a Python implementation of a 
> protocol called NTS which requires access to an API in OpenSSL which is not 
> provided by the Python ssl module.  I added a patch for that which 
> unfortunately for me the maintainer did not want to accept.  Some comments 
> were made of a possible future way to give more generic access to the openssl 
> library via ctypes/cffi but I have been unable to find more information about 
> that.  I was home sick last week and decided to take a shot at it and have 
> built something that I feel is a bit ugly but does seem to work.  I'd like to 
> some feedback on this approach.  

We use the pyOpenSSL to access APIs of openssl.
No need to use ctypes.

Barry

> 
> My patches can be found on github, based on the Python 3.11 tag:
> 
> https://github.com/python/cpython/compare/3.11...wingel:cpython:main
> 
> Here's a short description of each patch on this branch:
> 
> "bpo-37952: SSL: add support for export_keying_material" is my old patch 
> which adds the method I need to the ssl library just for reference. 
> 
> The other commits add the necessary infrastructure with some example code.  
> These commits are not ready for submission but hopefully they show what I 
> have in mind.
> 
> "Add CRYPTO_DLL_PATH and SSL_DLL_PATH to the _ssl module. "
> 
> This commit adds two constants to the "_ssl" C module with the paths to 
> libcrypto and libssl respectively.  On Linux dladdr and on Windows 
> GetModuleHandle/GetModuleFilename are used on a symbol in each library to 
> find the path to the corresponding DLL.  I've verified that this works Debian 
> Bulleye and on Windows 10 with Visual Studio 2017.  I don't own a Mac so I 
> haven't been able to test this on macOS, but I believe dladdr is available on 
> modern macOS so it might work out of the box.  With the paths it's possible 
> to use ctypes or cffi get a handle to these libraries.
> 
> "Add API to get the address of the SSL structure" then adds an API to an 
> SSLSocket which returns the address of the corresponding "SSL" C structure.  
> This address can be used by ctypes/cffi.  One would probably want to expose 
> SSL_CTX, SSL_SESSION and BIO too but I started with just SSL since that's 
> what my code needs right now.
> 
> "Add a small test program" is a small test program that uses the 
> infrastructure from the two above commits to call C functions in 
> libssl/libcrypto using both ctypes and cffi.  It's a bit ugly but hopefully 
> it's not too hard to understand.
> 
> "Example of how to extend the ssl library using ctypes" is an example of how 
> a Python module that extends the SSL library using ctypes could look.  First 
> get a handle to libssl using ctypes, set up ctypes with the correct API for 
> the export_keying_material function, wrap it in a more Pythonic function and 
> then extend SSLSocket with the new function.  A simplified version looks like 
> this:
> 
>import ssl, ctypes
>ssl_lib = ctypes.CDLL(ssl._ssl.SSL_DLL_PATH)
>ssl_lib.SSL_export_keying_material.argtypes = (
>ctypes.c_void_p,  # SSL pointer
>ctypes.c_void_p, ctypes.c_size_t, # out pointer, out length
>ctypes.c_void_p, ctypes.c_size_t, # label buffer, label length
>ctypes.c_void_p, ctypes.c_size_t, # context, context length
>ctypes.c_int) # use context flag
>ssl_lib.SSL_export_keying_material.restype = ctypes.c_int
> 
>def SSL_export_keying_material(self, label, key_len, context = None):
>c_key = ctypes.create_string_buffer(key_len)
>c_label = ctypes.create_string_buffer(len(label))
>c_context = ctypes.create_string_buffer(context, len(context))
>if ssl_lib.SSL_export_keying_material(
>   self._sslobj.get_internal_addr(),
>c_key, key_len,
>c_label, len(label),
>c_context, len(context), 1);
>return bytes(c_key)
> 
>ssl.SSLSocket.export_keying_material = SSL_export_keying_material
> 
> There's a final commit "Expose more OPENSSL_ variables" which add some more 
> constants to the ssl module which expose the cflags and build information 
> from OpenSSL.  This patch is not really necessary, but it might be a good 
> idea to compare these constants with the corresponding constants retrieved 
> using ctypes/cffi to make sure that exactly the same version of the openssl 
> library is used.
> 
> Does this seem like a good idea?  As I said, I feel that it is a bit ugly, 
> but it does mean that if someone wants to use some 
> SSL_really_obscure_function in libcrypto or libssl they can do that without 
> having to rebuild all of CPython themselves.  Or if they want to integrate 
> with some other C library that wants a raw pointer to a SSL socket.  
> Hopefully this would reduce the burden on the ssl module maintainers a bit.
> 
> Anyway, if yo

[Python-Dev] Re: Switching to Discourse

2022-12-01 Thread Victor Stinner
What happened to this SC decision (move to Discourse)? People started
again to write on python-dev. So what's going on?

Should I reply on python-dev? Ask to move to Discourse?

Should we *close* the python-dev mailing list?

Victor
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[Python-Dev] Re: Switching to Discourse

2022-12-01 Thread Petr Viktorin

On 01. 12. 22 17:28, Victor Stinner wrote:

What happened to this SC decision (move to Discourse)? People started
again to write on python-dev. So what's going on?


PEPs must be announced on Discourse.
For discussions you can use any medium. A list, Discord, IRC, in-person 
chat...



Should I reply on python-dev? Ask to move to Discourse?


There's no issue with replying to python-dev.
If you want to reach a wider audience than python-dev, move to Discourse.


Should we *close* the python-dev mailing list?


If people are using it, and mods are moderating it, no.


– Petr (as myself, without authority)
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[Python-Dev] Re: RFC: expose ssl internals for use by ctypes/cffi

2022-12-01 Thread Christer Weinigel
On Wed, 2022-11-30 at 14:14 -0800, Gregory P. Smith wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 12:47 PM Steve Dower 
> wrote:
> > On 11/30/2022 4:52 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> > > Does this seem like a good idea?  As I said, I feel that it is a
> > bit ugly, but it does mean that if someone wants to use some
> > SSL_really_obscure_function in libcrypto or libssl they can do that
> > without having to rebuild all of CPython themselves.
> > 
> > Broadly, no, I don't think it's a good idea. We don't like
> > encouraging 
> > users to do things that make it hard to support them in the future.
> 
> +1 ... and in general if you want access to other OpenSSL APIs not
> already in the ssl module, getting them via non-stdlib packages on
> PyPI would be a better idea.
> 
> https://pypi.org/project/cryptography/ is very well supported.

Does not support TLS at all as far as I can see.

> https://pypi.org/project/oscrypto/ exists and is quite interesting.

Does not support ALPN nor export keying material.  It would probably be
possible to add support though.

> the old https://pypi.org/project/M2Crypto/ package still exists and
> seems to be maintained (wow).

Does not support ALPN nor export keying material.  And considering your
surprise at it still being maintained it doesn't feel like something
that one should use as a base for new code.

> More context: We don't like the ssl module in the standard library -
> it is already too tightly tied to OpenSSL: 
> https://discuss.python.org/t/our-future-with-openssl/21486
> 
> So if you want specific OpenSSL APIs that are not exposed, seeking to
> see them added to the standard library where they would then become
> features that need to be supported for a very long time, is going to
> be the most difficult approach as there'd need to be a very good
> reason to have them in the stdlib.

What I have tried to add support for the last two years is not an API
specific for OpenSSL, it is part of TLS.  It was introduced in TLSv1.2
in 2010 by RFC5705 "Keying Material Exporters for Transport Layer
Security (TLS)".  OpenSSL added support for it in 2011 and the API has
basically been unchanged since (the parameter names in the prototype in
openssl/tls1.h has changed but is functionally identical).  Support for
RFC5705 is available in GnuTLS, Microsoft Schannel, Mbed-TLS, Botan and
even good old Mozilla NSS.

So basically what you are telling me is that there is no interest in
adding support for a 12 year old part of TLS to the standard ssl
library in Python, nor any interest in adding hooks to make it possible
to extend the ssl library.  Because the latter is basically what I was
told to do when my patch to add support for RFC5705 was rejected:

https://bugs.python.org/issue43902

> Third party libraries that can
> provide what you need, or rolling your own libssl API wrappings
> however you choose to implement them, are better bets

I have not found any third party library that supports RFC5705, none of
the ones you mentioned above has support for it and are also missing
other functionality such as ALPN that is needed by RFC8915 "Network
Time Security for the Network Time Protocol" which is what I actually
want to implement.  The standard ssl library in Python is so very close
to what I need, it has support for everything else needed by RFC8951,
so I would very much prefer to use it if possible.

It just feels so silly somehow to have to have my own fork of all of
CPython or to use a completely different TLS library just to  be able
to use a functino that has been a part of TLS and OpenSSL since
basically forever. :)

  /Christer



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